1/20/26: ADL Crackdown, Shapiro Vs Kamala, Shawn Ryan Rips Trump, Ben Affleck Shreds AI

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode: 1/20/26: ADL Crackdown, Shapiro Vs Kamala, Shawn Ryan Rips Trump, Ben Affleck Shreds AI
Air Date: January 20, 2026
Hosts: Krystal Ball & Saagar Enjeti

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Overview

In this content-packed episode, Krystal and Saagar dissect a series of controversies at the intersection of politics, censorship, free speech, digital surveillance, celebrity critique of AI, and the ongoing battle over the Epstein files. Highlights include scrutiny of the ADL's AI-driven legal actions, a candid discussion of Josh Shapiro's vexed interactions with Kamala Harris, Sean Ryan's explosive critique of Trump on the Epstein cover-up, and Ben Affleck's surprising insight into AI and the current state of creative industries. The duo maintain their signature conversational, irreverent, yet incisive tone.

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Key Discussion Segments

1. The ADL, AI Censorship, and the New Legal Surveillance State ([02:39]–[14:25])

• ADL's Legal Action Network & GenAI
  • Saagar details how the ADL, led by Jonathan Greenblatt, has built a "Legal Action Network" (50,000 lawyers from 50 top law firms) leveraging generative AI to instantly act on complaints, turning social incidents—like an alleged anti-Israel comment in a school—into auto-generated legal threats and petitions.
  • Quote – Saagar Enjeti [04:38]: "Panopticon. Yeah, the literal panopticon. Surveillance, private surveillance state, which is working behind the scenes."
• Real-World Chilling Effect
  • The hosts play audio from an incident in Miami Beach where police visited a woman’s house after she criticized the Mayor on Facebook.
  • Quote – Krystal Ball [07:41]: “It's just a lefty post. ... There's no even implied threat and nothing. It's just a post.”
  • Saagar stresses this represents a "chilling" normalization of government-corporate collusion against political speech, now turbocharged by AI.
• Slippery Slope of Speech Suppression
  • Krystal traces the evolution: starting with pro-Palestinian speech among immigrants, now broadening to anti-capitalist and anti-Christian protests—casting much protest as domestic terrorism.
• Government Overreach Examples
  • Krystal highlights a case where the Attorney General spent hours to ensure a student was expelled after a minor altercation involving an IDF T-shirt, lamenting law enforcement’s asymmetric resource deployment.
  • Saagar and Krystal call out selective prosecution and a rise in “antisemitism industrial complex” involving government and private institutions.

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2. Josh Shapiro vs. Kamala Harris: Democratic Infighting Over Israel and Vetting ([17:09]–[26:12])

• VP Vetting & Allegiances
  • Krystal walks through Josh Shapiro’s new book and his outrage at being asked if he was a “double agent” for Israel during VP consideration—despite his service with the IDF and at the Israeli embassy. She defends the question’s necessity for anyone who’s worked for another government.
  • Quote – Krystal Ball [18:40]: “It would honestly be irresponsible not to ask ... If you're going to be vice President ... you have to answer that question.”
• Kamala Harris' Discontent and Democratic Dysfunction
  • Kamala’s own complaints about the VP role surface—lack of autonomy, no private bathroom—offered as proof of how self-interested elite Dems are.
  • Saagar and Krystal dismiss both Harris and Shapiro as “divas” and “victim complainers.”
  • Quote – Saagar Enjeti [22:32]: "If you take it out four years, ... the sitting ... vice presidential Democratic candidate ... had to not run for reelection. Should make you ... assess how that went down from a pure political talent perspective."
• The 2028 Democratic Primary & Systemic Barriers
  • Saagar explains how moving South Carolina to the first primary position may unfairly advantage establishment candidates and Kamala in particular, entrenching party elites and making life harder for upstart or left-wing figures.
  • Krystal critiques the idea of diversity promoted by this calendar and recounts the 2020 sidelining of Bernie Sanders victories in non-SC states.

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3. Sean Ryan Rips Trump Over Epstein Files: Conservative Dissent and Cover-Ups ([33:27]–[43:16])

• Sean Ryan’s Frustration
  • The podcaster Sean Ryan expresses outright fury at the Trump administration’s refusal to fully release Epstein files, accusing them of “protecting pedophiles.”
  • Quote – Sean Ryan [34:08]: "Why is the White House protecting pedophiles? ... I voted to get these damn files released and it's like a total 180 just happened. They are legitimately, proactively protecting pedophiles."
  • Krystal details court maneuvers by DOJ arguing judges cannot force full disclosure despite a law supposedly mandating it.
• Implications for the Right
  • Saagar theorizes that critical voices like Sean Ryan, Joe Rogan, etc., which empowered Trump in 2024, now have the power to turn popular right-wing opinion against him and his allies.
  • Quote – Saagar Enjeti [38:49]: "At every step they're either incompetent and or acting as if there is something to cover up and they have nothing to say about it."
• Courage and Accountability in Congress
  • Krystal points out that only a handful of Republicans, under immense pressure, stood firm to force the discharge petition for transparency on Epstein, but most have since walked away from the issue. Lauren Boebert is quoted: “I don't give a rip about Epstein ... Talk to somebody else about that.” ([41:26])
  • Saagar bemoans how easily momentum for accountability is lost amid shifting media priorities, hoping Democrats will extend the fight in future Congressional sessions.

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4. Ben Affleck Shreds AI and Hollywood “Slop”: Celebrity Real Talk About Tech & Creativity ([45:40]–[56:21])

• AI’s Hype vs. Reality
  • Ben Affleck, in a Joe Rogan interview, critiques AI’s mediocrity in creative writing and movie-making, arguing it can only generate “shitty” content and that “adoption is slow—it’s incremental.” He senses AI’s true promise is overhyped for investor valuations.
  • Quote – Ben Affleck [45:57]: “If you try to get ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty. ... It goes to the mean, to the average, and it's ... not reliable.”
  • He notes the “leveling off” in AI’s progress and points out its limited real productivity—most use is for “companion bots.”
• Industry Perspective: The Rise of Content Mediocrity
  • Saagar praises Affleck’s grasp, agreeing that fears are overblown, though he recognizes entertainment conglomerates will still chase cheap, high-volume content.
  • Krystal is more skeptical, warning that the economics—a flood of cheap, low-quality content—will drive studios to embrace “slop creation.”
• Second Screen Effect & Artistic Decline
  • The discussion moves to how streaming (Netflix et al.) dumbs down stories to accommodate distracted, phone-addicted viewers, driving the industry to spell out plots endlessly and kill narrative subtlety.
  • Quote – Unnamed (J, likely Matt Damon) [52:40]: “...You reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue because. Because people are on their phones while they're watching.”
• Cultural Loss and Technology
  • Krystal and Saagar reflect on technological advances—from TV and radio to smartphones—consistently trading convenience for genuine cultural or artistic loss, such as dwindling book reading and critical thinking.
  • Quote – Saagar Enjeti [57:01]: “We created the device which is now here, everywhere ... in your own personal life ... you have to ask ... many of the most vicious critics ... they were probably right. ... it did kill critical thinking.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Saagar, on the normalization of speech suppression:
  “Just cringe posting on the Internet ... is deeply accepted, especially whenever it is about a mayor. ... being vegan visited by a police officer is the definition of chilling ... period, end of story.” ([07:00])
• Krystal, on Democratic vetting and double standards:
  “You worked for their military and you worked for their embassy. ... you have to answer that question.” ([18:40])
• Sean Ryan, on the Epstein cover-up:
  “The fucking White House is protecting pedophiles.” ([34:36])
• Ben Affleck, on AI-generated creativity:
  “It's shitty because by its nature it goes to the mean, to the average ... it's not reliable.” ([45:57])
• J (Matt Damon?), on content adapting for distracted viewers:
  “You reiterated the plot three or four times ... because people are on their phones while they're watching.” ([52:40])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• ADL/AI Legal Action, Censorship & Miami Speech Incident:
  [02:39] – [14:25]
• Josh Shapiro vs. Kamala Harris, Democratic Party Dysfunction:
  [17:09] – [26:12]
• Sean Ryan’s Epstein Rant, Right-Wing Fractures & Political Accountability:
  [33:27] – [43:16]
• Ben Affleck on AI & The Decline of Content Quality:
  [45:40] – [56:21]

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Final Thoughts

Krystal and Saagar wrap with a recognition of the persistent power of independent media and the centrality of critical, cross-partisan scrutiny—whether the target is the ADL, entrenched politicians, or the entertainment-industrial complex. The episode is a whirlwind of sharp analysis, dark humor, and candid industry and political critique—a timely showcase of why Breaking Points continues to resonate as a fiercely independent voice.

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Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Public Podcast Sponsor]

Guaranteed Human support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It's IT screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra, SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures so you want.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Your bill, ladies. I got it.

[Unidentified Participant (Dialogue with E and others)]

No, I got it. Seriously, I insist.

[Krystal Ball]

I insisted first. Don't be silly.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You don't be silly.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Okay. Rock, paper, scissors for it.

[Unidentified Participant (Dialogue with E and others)]

Rock, paper, scissors.

[Krystal Ball]

Shoot.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No.

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The Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card. Visit wells fargo.com ActiveCash Terms apply hey guys.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Sager and Krystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere. Else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited ad free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] turning now to censorship. There's a lot of stuff going on whenever it comes to censorship of anybody who's remotely challenges the Israel consensus here in the U.S. the CEO of the ADL, Jonathan Greenblatt, now saying that there are AI automatic versions to try and to monitor any alleged act of anti Semitism, using AI to report it to lawyers, to prosecute, to criminalize, and to go after anybody who criticizes the State of Israel. Here's what he had to say.

[Wells Fargo Ad / UFC Promo]

We created something called the Legal Action Network. We've assembled 50 of the top law firms in the United States to create a pro bono coterie of literally like 50,000 lawyers. And so now when you enter in an incident at adl, it instantly gets evaluated by our AI systems. Is there a litigation opportunity? And we feed it to the lawyers to evaluate and to find someone to take the case. So it used to be that again, if you had a problem, you picked up the phone and called adl and it took us days and days to get back to you. Remember I told you 31,000 reports. Now, using generative AI, I am responding instantly. And if you enter that, something happened to you. For example, say your kid got bullied at middle. Your kid had a teacher at middle school, a social studies teacher, who again, this oppressor, oppressed craziness and held out your kid. You enter it in and our Gen AI can literally on the spot, generate a letter for you to send to LAUSD that will automatically, okay, this is the Chairman of the Board of Education, this is the Superintendent of Schools, this is the name of the principal of that specific school. We'll generate the letter real time and send it out for you and at the same time launch a petition that we can push to the city council and so on and so forth.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Wow, Genai working with lawyers, 50,000 lawyers. The Legal Action Network, the ADL.

[Krystal Ball]

Panopticon.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, the literal panopticon. Surveillance, private surveillance state, which is working behind the scenes. And just to go and show everybody, we just had a long debate about the role of public life, law enforcement and churches, or one of the things that we at least generally kind of agreed on was this idea of the First Amendment and of expressing yourself without being visited. Without being visited by police officers. As we often look at videos in the UK or in Germany when people privately post something, let's say on Facebook and visits from the authority. You truly will not believe what you're about to see. The mayor of Miami beach sent police officers. Taxpayer dollar police officers to. To the home of a private US Citizen after she criticized the mayor on Facebook over his pro Israel stance. Let's watch the video picture to make sure it's you. We're not sure.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Is that your account?

[Unidentified Participant (Dialogue with E and others)]

I refuse to answer questions without my lawyer present.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So I really don't know how to answer that question either.

[Walton Goggins (GoDaddy Ad)]

Like I said.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You're not going to do speech. This is America. Right Veteran.

[Ben Affleck (Interview Segment)]

And I agree with you 100%. We're just trying to see if it's you.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Because if we're not talking to the right person we want to go see.

[Public Podcast Sponsor]

Who the right person.

[Unidentified Participant (Dialogue with E and others)]

Okay.

[Saagar Enjeti]

How can I help you?

[Walton Goggins (GoDaddy Ad)]

So pretty much it's just a statement.

[Ben Affleck (Interview Segment)]

That was made as far as you know.

[Unidentified Participant (Dialogue with E and others)]

It says the guy who consistently calls for the death of all Palestinians tried to shut down a theater for showing a movie that hurt his feelings and refuses to stand up for the LGBTQ community in any way. Even leave the room when they vote. And unrelated matters Wants you to know that you are all welcome. Clown face. Clown face.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Clown face.

[Unidentified Participant (Dialogue with E and others)]

3 days ago 0 no.

[Walton Goggins (GoDaddy Ad)]

If it was you.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm not gonna answer whether that's me or not.

[Ben Affleck (Interview Segment)]

Okay.

[Unidentified Participant (Dialogue with E and others)]

The concerning part and not concerning for the person who's posting it when we're just trying to prevent somebody else getting agitated or. Or agreeing with the statement. We're not saying it's true or not.

Understood.

That guy who consistently calls for the death of all Palestine opinions that can properly incite somebody to do something radical. That's all we're here to talk about. And we wanted to get your side. If it was you that posted that to. I would think to refrain from posting things like that because that could get something inside.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I appreciate your concern. I appreciate you coming out here. Okay. That's it.

[Wells Fargo Ad / UFC Promo]

That is it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm gonna maintain my. My amendment rights to not answer the question about what.

[Krystal Ball]

We appreciate it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Thank you.

[Public Podcast Sponsor]

You as well.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Thank you.

[Krystal Ball]

Take care.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Shout out to this lady. She handled that. Exactly.

[Krystal Ball]

She did. And that was.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I had nothing to say to you without insane of a lawyer. Let's. Can we reiterate this post? This is the post that she was sent a police officer to her door. The guy who Consistently calls for the death of all Palestinians, tried to shut down a theater for showing a movie that hurt his feelings and refuses to stand up for the LGBTQ community in any way. Even leaves the room when they vote on related matters. Wants you to know that you are all welcome here. Clown, clown, clown. That is what she said. Standard shitlib stuff. And I just sent.

[Krystal Ball]

It's just a lefty post. That's it. I mean, there's no even implied threat and nothing. It's just a post.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And I just made a whole diatribe about liberal protest culture and all that. However, what I do accept is we do need to live together in some respect and yes, even cringe. Posting on the Internet in any respect is deeply accepted, especially whenever it is about a mayor. I mean, it's just so insane because this and this, you know, I just talked about the normalization of crazy norms. This is the part of the issue we are watching, the normalization just rapidly getting stepped up here. We can all debate on when it all started, but especially whenever it comes to politically sensitive speech targeted at public officials. And by breaking open that, you have created an environment here where I mean, even being vegan visited by a police officer is the definition of chilling. Whenever it comes to political space, there there's no getting around it, like period, end of story. This is a local matter where as a citizen you have every right to be able to criticize your public officials. And this is the fundamental problem is that with AI and you have like let's say corporate censorship, legal, let's say harassment, let's probably call it that.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

On top of multiple locality, state and now federal. Whenever it comes to the Trump administration and the doj, well, this becomes like a full on entity. I just spent all this time criticizing blm, which I believe embodied that for multiple times during the Biden years and under Democratic presidencies. Well, I think this is now effectively happened with the so called like antisemitism industrial complex where the doj, the ADL and these mayors, local cops and, and lawyers all together are creating the exact same effect here. Yeah, and that's really dangerous.

[Krystal Ball]

And once you accept it for. So they. The way they started was with pro Palestinian protesters who were immigrants. You had Mahmoud Khalil who was a green card holder, but he was the first high profile one that they went after and they felt like the combination of pro Palestine speech plus immigrant status was like the lowest hanging fruit. And they've expanded out from there. So it doesn't stay with pro Palestinian speech and that's why this memo that Ken Klipstein has reported on that classifies anyone who is anti capitalist, anti Christian protest that they're all considered domestic terrorists. What is to stop them from coming to your door if you just post something critical anti capitalist about the administration? That is the predicate that's being set to your point, though, I mean, this is the way the federal government has focused on this. Pam Bondi spoke at this Israeli American Council, proudly telling the story of how she got involved in this school matter at Florida State, where. I don't know if you guys remember this. I think we played it and talked about it on the shoot, the school, the show. There we go. There was a guy who had an IDF T shirt on in the gym. There was a lady who came up to him. I think she did put her hand on him, but. But they made it like, my God, he was assaulted, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the federal government got involved in this fricking thing. And now Pam Bondi is out lying about the incident and bragging about it. Let's take a listen to that.

[Unidentified Participant (Dialogue with E and others)]

I want to tell you a story right here in Florida. You probably heard of it. It's not a crime of great violence, but in my opinion, it's a crime of great significance. I give college presidents my personal cell phone and I say, if you need anything, call me. My phone rang one day. I was sitting in the office and it was the president of Florida State University. And he said, something just happened. Yeah, a young woman, a student, threw her phone, cursed, attacked a young student, a young man, male student, who was playing basketball because he was wearing an IDF shirt. She was a student, he was a student. I spent the next few hours on the phone. I called my U.S. attorney, I called the state attorney, called law enforcement, and I guess you saw it went through the system as it should. And she now is kicked out of Florida State University. But little things are the big things, and that sends a strong message that you can't behave that way anymore in our country.

[Krystal Ball]

So rather than working on, I don't know, maybe like, releasing the Epstein files instead, the Attorney General of the United States of America is spending hours of her time to get this college student kicked out for this genuinely minor incident and infraction.

[Saagar Enjeti]

She tweeted about it instantly whenever it happened. Yeah, we covered it all here at the time. You're exactly right. Whenever it comes to the Epstein story and why so many people are so upset about their handling of it, they can do whatever they want when they want to, don't forget that coffee shop incident that actually that one really gets me more than anyone because we're talking.

[Krystal Ball]

About drinks names, they had a whatever, right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Look, it was a distasteful name. I wouldn't have done the name. We can criticize the tactic, okay. However, you're a private business and what ended up happening was like some alleged discrimination and the DOJ was like, we're going to sue this coffee shop down into the ground. Right. Using federal civil rights, Federal civil rights rights law over what is obviously a local incident. And in that case in particular, what they were doing is trying to make this message that it's only going to be on the side of pro Israel activism. The one thing that we did also wanna show everybody is this Miriam Adelson question where she was asked at this conference, how do you buy and exercise influence over politicians in the US and she gets very squirrely. Let's take a listen. Miri, you and Sheldon created a lot of relationship over the years with politicians at the state level, especially at the federal level. I want you to share with everyone why is it so important and how do you do it? Again, writing checks is part of it, but there is more than writing just checks. So how do you do it?

[Krystal Ball]

Can you allow me not to answer?

[Saagar Enjeti]

You choose.

[Krystal Ball]

I want to be truthful and there are so many things that I don't want to talk about.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I mean, we don't want specific, but that's okay. Wow.

[Krystal Ball]

Incredible.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Says it all.

[Krystal Ball]

Incredible. He asked the same question. The other guy sitting there who's a billionaire, Haim Saban I think is his name. And he also was like, yeah, I don't really want to get into that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Because you know, it would be too distasteful for us to all hear out of the mouth of what kind of people our leaders are. It's disgusting, terrible to me, it's just amazing that they still hold these conferences as if cameras don't. Cameras and microphones don't exist. So it's just, I don't know, at the same time it's crazy and it feels crushing. On the other, we do have a moment of more heightened awareness and people around this issue that the propaganda has never worked. More than ever. So maybe in the long run it will all work out.

[Public Podcast Sponsor]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt from renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index, and let you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures so you want.

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[Krystal Ball]

The governor of Pennsylvania and who was famously vetted to be potential VP pick for Kamal Harris, and there's been all kinds of talk of him. Potential 2028 contender. He's popular in the state of Pennsylvania. We'll, you know, certainly give him that. He is now out with the book where he talks about how upset he was about the VP vetting process. And by the way, for context here, what the Harris people had put out about why they didn't want Josh Shapiro on the ticket was that he seemed more about like Himself, he was like, measuring the drapes, very way too ambitious and not a team player. And I have to say that they look pretty vindicated with these, with what he's putting out now about how this process went. In any case, what he was particularly upset about, put this up on the screen. Is they apparently asked him if he had been a double agent for Israel. Quote, was she kidding? I told her how offensive the question was. Okay, so let's keep in mind that Josh Shapiro, by his own words, volunteered with the idf, wrote, has written all kinds of pretty wild anti Palestinian stuff. He also worked for a while in information, like in public affairs at the Israeli embassy. So it would honestly be irresponsible not to ask whether it was Israel or any other country. You worked for their military and you worked for their embassy. It is incumbent on you. If you're going to be vice President of the United States, you have to answer that question. We also have now gotten information that they asked Tim Walls the same question, by the way, about China, because he had had extensive time in China and some, you know, I can't remember all the. There was like an entanglement with someone. It was a Chinese official, whatever.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, it was genuinely weird. Like, he did spend a lot of time in China.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, he did. He spent a lot of time. So they asked him the same question. So it's not like they were just like picking on Josh Shapiro, but that is the way that he took it. Let's put D2 up on the screen. So he says. Their discussion was especially tense when Harris asked Shapiro if he would apologize for some of his comments about protesters at the University of Pennsylvania who had built encampments to decry Israel's military campaign in Gaza. He was very aggressive in terms of the Democratic side in like, condemning the protesters and cracking down on them as governor of the state. This one also just sort of cracked me. The other thing he complained about was that their questions were not substantive. Put the next one up on the screen, he said. It nagged at me that their questions weren't really about substance, he wrote, rather, they were questioning my ideology, my approach and my worldview. That seems pretty substantive. Like, what are we talking about? It weren't about substance. What was he expecting them to ask? It was out of bounds that they wanted to know about his ideology, his approach and his worldview. Kind of wild. And then let's put the last one up on the screen. So this is Harris, he wrote, described her own experience as Vice president Stark terms, saying she had had a rough time In a position that had little autonomy or executive authority. I was surprised by how much she seemed to dislike the role he wrote. She noted her chief of staff would be giving me my directions, lamented that the vice president didn't have a private bathroom in their office, and how difficult it was for her at times not to have a voice in the decision making. And I believe that. That Kamala was not happy in that role, and there were lots of leaks to that effect during the Biden administration. But pretty. I mean, this is pretty.

[Saagar Enjeti]

There's no heroes in this series.

[Krystal Ball]

Of course not. Yeah. I mean, this is incredibly lame from Josh Shapiro, though, and like I said, really just sort of validate the reasons that the Harris team had given for why he wasn't ultimately picked.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, yeah, it's. I don't know, because at the same time, I think, in retrospect, I think Walsh was a disastrous pick. He was. Horrible debate. He basically brought nothing to the ticket. Look at him. I mean, he's so weak that he has to basically drop out of the race immediately and can't even defend his own record in the state. And even now, with the way he's handling Minnesota, I don't think any. The libs are mad at him, and the right is mad at him. He's got nobody who is standing up. So he was a joke. I always thought he was an idiot. But, you know, whenever you look at Josh Shapiro, the appealing part was not only the state of Pennsylvania, which, you know, she did lose by relatively small margin. It wasn't like it was a blowout whenever it came to the statewide election. It may have actually been worth putting up with if you had thought that it was gonna do anything. I think, though, the case being made is that look at how these people are all divas, you know, in the way that they act. Such a victim. Compliment. Yeah. The victim compl. Even Kamala, she's bitching about how the vice president's office doesn't have a bathroom. I'm like, oh, yeah, Like I give a fuck whether you ever get to go to the bathroom in your private office or not. All right? And then whenever it comes to Josh Shapiro, he's like, oh, well, they were so mean to me. Cause he's mad that they didn't come and try to offer him the role on a silver plate. Right. In a way, he wanted them to beg for him to take the job.

[Krystal Ball]

And she obviously, what they said is he was measuring the drapes, basically, and being very assertive about what he wanted. The vice presidential role to be. And they were like, screw you.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But in a way, I sympathize in that they needed him, I think a little bit more than she needed or she needed him more than he needed her. He's still fine enough government governor. He'll probably.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, honestly, kind of dodged a bullet.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, he obviously. Because.

[Ben Affleck (Interview Segment)]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Because look at Walls Waltz is a disaster.

[Krystal Ball]

Walls is out.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right. He looks like a joke.

[Krystal Ball]

He's out now. I mean, listen, I don't think Shapiro is going to win a 20, 28 primary, but he's still in his head is holding onto that hope. For sure.

[Saagar Enjeti]

For sure. But, you know, at the very least, like, he gets to survive. You know, if you, if you take it out four years, like the fact that the sitting there was the vice presidential Democratic candidate who previously was like a somebody, you know, who actually had some sort of political juice.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Had to not run for reelection. Should make seriously reassess, like, the way that that entire thing went down from a pure political talent perspective. And the fact now that, you know, for him, dodging the bullet. What I think, though, is so bad about this book is it's all personal and it just reveals that these people don't care about really anything. It's. For him, it's all about the slights that are all perceived, et cetera. Even Kamala's book was just the gallery of all of the perceived slights and how people let her down. And she was never in a position where she actually failed the public. Like, if you're a Democrat, you should be furious with this woman. Like, actually furious for the way she ran her campaign. If you're like, oh, my God, Trump is so bad, it's like, it's her fault.

[Krystal Ball]

Guys, this is the thing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I just don't get it.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, listen, I don't. It's not all her fault. It's a lot of fault, but you cannot avoid laying some blame at her feet. And this was the thing I never understood with the Hillary either. It's like, I mean, that one really is all her fault. By and large, you were the most proximate cause of the Trump era. And I just never felt like there was a reckoning with that. And it's.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's because of Russia gays. That's why we hated Russia gays.

[Krystal Ball]

You know, accountability. So let's put D6 up on the screen because this gets to what you're speaking about with this Kamala Harris situation. So she's still imagining that she's going to run for president and the Headline here from Axios is dems divide over Harris surfaces as she looks like a 2028 contender. One top Democrat told Axios, kamala has not accepted that she's not running yet. And, I mean, that is wild to me. That is wild to me because. And I know where it comes from. It's because, number one, she has whoever around her that when you have consultants and aides around you, they stand to financially profit off of your run, even if you lose. Because Kamala Harris would raise money and she'd do a thing and they'd get a cut of her ad buys and what. So they have a vested interest. And then genuinely, there's a lot of affection for her in the black community. So when she travels around and she sees these crowds of people who are, you know, like, genuinely admire her and appreciate her and all of that, that continues to sort of, like, fill her head with, I am the one. And you know what? You look at the polling, and there still is a significant chunk of the Democratic base that will say, yeah, if in this primary field, she's the one that I would choose. But that ignores the fact that we have not one, but two presidential campaigns that we can look at with Kamala Harris, where, you know, in the Democratic primary, she couldn't even get off the ground. Right. She had to drop out before the votes were even cast. And then in this past election, look, she failed. I mean, we ran the experiment. It didn't work. She wasn't able to win. And you can chalk that up to any number of factors that you want to, but that is reality. And so it's just. It's just wild to me. And then the other part of it that is wild to me is if you still want to be part of. If you want to be a leader in the Democratic Party, like, there is a massive void to fill. But she's very. She'll put on a thing now and then, but in terms of really taking the lead and, like, being a leader in this moment when they desperately need it, she's not there. So still continuing to demonstrate that she doesn't understand where the base is. She doesn't understand what the moment is, what the moment calls for. She doesn't know what she really believes in. That's always been kind of the core problem with her. And all of those issues are. Continue to be there.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Meanwhile, she's just bought an $8 million house in Malibu, if anybody's wondering, like, a couple of days ago, off the proceeds of the book. Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, here's the structural problem also, right?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Through dubious means. But yeah. But here's the thing with Kamala and here's a structural problem for Democrats. They rigged the primary for Biden.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And have now made it. South Carolina is the first state.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And remember the proving. And I had a lot of criticisms of Iowa and New Hampshire. Like not to be woke. But they actually are unironically too white. As in like not. And it's not about them being white. It's not representative of a general electorate and. Or a swing state. I always thought the first state should be Michigan or some sort of battleground state to be able to prove like the ability to get people out where the demographics are going to look a lot more like the general election.

[Krystal Ball]

But they switched to swing state.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Or Nevada.

[Krystal Ball]

North Carolina is not.

[Saagar Enjeti]

How about Nevada? Nevada was a perfect, perfect one. Nevada is a good one. Michigan and. Or maybe even Super Tuesday. It's not a horrible idea just to see how you play nationally. But the fact is they rigged it so that South Carolina's going to be first and whoever wins that gets the momentum. And this is going to be a huge uphill challenge if Kamala does run again because she doesn't have to prove electability in Iowa and New Hampshire ahead of South Carolina and she can immediately win a primary which will flood the donation inbox and make her look more like the left has a huge uphill bat.

[Krystal Ball]

That's true.

[Saagar Enjeti]

To climb in a primary.

[Krystal Ball]

To be clear, I don't think they've actually set the order of the states for 2028, but I do think it would be difficult. New Hampshire has that thing or it's in their constitution, whatever. Anyway, I do think it'll be difficult to push South Carolina back in. It's certainly still going to be an incredibly consequential state and it continues to be the biggest stumbling block for left wing candidates. There's simply no doubt about it that older black, young, young black voters, left wing candidates do fine with. But older black voters that make up the base of the Democratic Party in southern states like South Carolina. I don't think that left wing candidates have figured that out.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And it's not representative though. That's why it drives me crazy.

[Krystal Ball]

It's not. And because it's a Republican state, it is a Republican state. So this is not emblematic of the. Like those voters are the most reliable block of Democratic Party voters. So whoever the nominee is is going to get the backing of those voters. So you're not really demonstrating anything in terms of your. Certainly in terms of your electability. And anyway, I mean the whole idea that this was all about some like, oh, we need to be inclusive is just bullshit. They just did it because they thought it would be best for Joe Biden. That is the bottom line of what happened there. Because I'll Never forget in 2020 when you had Bernie running and he wins Iowa, Pete, whatever ties in Iowa, however you want to say that does very well in Iowa wins new wins Nevada, which you can say Iowa, New Hampshire, yes, very white Nevada, extremely diverse, extreme extremely diverse. And all of the pundit class said none of that really counts. That doesn't count as diversity. Only South Carolina counts as diversity. And so in any case, I don't know what the order will be. But regardless, that is something that a left wing candidate is going to have to figure out or they have to hope that there is because there are a variety of establishment lane candidates who divide that vote in South Carolina. Because that would be the other hope. And I think that's possible.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It is possible. But don't forget about Clyburn. If he's around, all he has to do is endorse you and apparently 40% of the people in South Carolina will just vote for you. I think it's really bad. I think a lot of Democrats, people like you guys should get involved or try to get into a primary process. Cause this is bad for the country to make it so that it is effectively rigged by the Democratic establishment from the get go to make it so that any sort of upstart candidate basically has no shot whatsoever. And especially how this will play in the midst of what are likely to be some insurgent victories in 2026. That's horrible, right? To basically betray a huge part. And then that could lead to the feelings of betrayal, a replay of the whole 2016 candidacy, which is, I mean, and I would say that's like the modal outcome right now is that there's gonna be a huge fight. Who knows? I never count out the Democratic establishment or the ability for a lot of people to just like go along. JD will be the boogeyman of the, you know, he's Trump, but actually he's worse. And everybody will kind of come together. And then who knows? From there there may be enough people who are not willing to buy the boogeyman argument and you could potentially see some sort of close election all over again. I have no idea.

[Public Podcast Sponsor]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Let's get to Epstein.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, so this is I think a very noteworthy development. So podcaster Sean Ryan, who I think had Trump and J.D. vance on in advance of the election, you know, has been outspoken about. He voted for them. You know, he, he, he truly believe, I mean what I get from this, he truly believed the hype that they would, they would reveal the secrets, they would release the Epstein, clearly something that he feels passionate about and he is thoroughly disgusted with the COVID up. Had an extraordinary conversation with Ro Khanna who of course has been at the forefront of pushing to get the Epstein files released and in the context of that went aggressively after the Trump White House. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

[Walton Goggins (GoDaddy Ad)]

Why is the White House protecting pedophiles? Why is the White House protecting pedophiles? I, I just don't understand it, Ro. I can't fucking get it through my head why we would protect pedophiles. I mean I voted for this shit. I voted to get these damn files released and it's like a total 180 just happened. They are legitimately, proactively protecting pedophiles.

[Ben Affleck (Interview Segment)]

They are protecting pedophiles at this point.

[Walton Goggins (GoDaddy Ad)]

By redacting the abusers names. The White House, listen up everybody. The fucking White House is protecting pedophiles.

[Wells Fargo Ad / UFC Promo]

You hear that?

[Walton Goggins (GoDaddy Ad)]

They're fucking protecting pedophiles.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's what the fuck they're doing.

[Krystal Ball]

So making sure that everybody heard. Hey, just so you know what these people are doing, let's put the next one up on the screen because he's been going in on Twitter as well. So this guy, Donald Trump, Trump's quote, spiritual leader Robert Morris was just sentenced to a pathetic, by the way, six months in prison after pleading guilty to five counts of sexually abusing a 12 year old child. And Sean Ryan weighs in and says, yeah, and he'll probably get a pardon with this administration. So he's pretty aggressive going after them here and rightfully so. And we have, you know, to back him up. We have some new legal moves from this administration as well. Well, they are telling the courts the DOJ is arguing that no court can actually force the release of the Epstein files. According to Brian Allen, he says their position is basically the Epstein Transparency act doesn't create an enforceable path in federal court, so judges cannot compel compliance. Translation will release what we want when we want and you can't stop us. It has now Been a month since they were supposed to have released everything and there is a tiny sliver of files that have come out and I thought we were gonna get a drip, drip, drip. We got like a drip, drip and that was it. Nothing else since what, December is the last time we got any sort of release. And those releases, even though they were redacted, even though they were insufficient, they were still very damaging to Trump and very revelatory in general about what Epstein was doing and implicating all sorts of people. So even with this very constrained tiny amount of information that we got, there was still noteworthy information contained there. So they're completely stonewalling, they wanna wash their hands of it, they wanna argue in court, they don't have to do anything else. And they're flagrantly violating the law that was passed by Congress and signed into law by the President himself.

[Saagar Enjeti]

One of the things that makes me hopeful about the Sean Rye, I mean Sean, you know, you gotta give the guy credit, he actually talked a lot about this. He just had on child protection person on his show. Like he cares really, really deeply about this issue. And this is somebody who is, I mean he's got millions of subscribers on YouTube. And in general, the way that you could assess this as part of an overall, let's call it vibe shift, if you will. If you take the totality of like Tim Dillon, Andrew Schultz, Joe Rogan, Sean Ryan, if we accept that all of those people were vital conduits for Donald Trump or Trump, thought Theo Vaughn, another one of them to Trump permission structure in 2024, then we have to accept that their criticism is also a permission structure against Trump and the Republicans in 2026 and potentially in 2028. And that's why I actually think that this issue remains so important, not only because of the substance, which again we've covered since here from day one, but it matters because when it comes to a cover up and the way that they act, let's say, as we just pointed out in the censorship block, that they're immediately will come to the defense of some Florida state student who apparently got yelled at cuz he's wearing an IDF T shirt. But then you see them dragging their feet for a month whenever it comes to Epstein. I mean, you should freak out about that, like you really should be upset about that. And then you see the way that they act for multiple other high profile cases. By the way, if you're super right wing, shouldn't you be upset about the way that the Charlie Kirk thing went down? It's Nuts, right? The way that Cash Patel and the FBI botched that investigation from day one, you should be furious. I mean, even. Oh my God, the shooter, remember the Brown University thing? What a shit show. And they had no idea where the person was. He ended up killing himself in a storage locker. Yeah, right. That's how it all eventually went down, by the way. Still haven't heard much about that. We got the transcripts of his video and apparently it's just. Cause he was crazy.

[Krystal Ball]

Maybe.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, I don't know, it seemed pretty weird to me going to assassinate the head of a nuclear science program, but. Yeah, so like at every step they're either incompetent and or acting as if there is something to cover up and they have nothing to say about it. And then the President, the DOJ and all of their behavior. Look at the way, I mean, Trump literally flipped that guy off the Ford worker because. And then even in side the administration, they're furious with Pam Bondi for blaming her. And it is like kind of centrally her and Cash's fault because from the day one they handed out all of that Epstein files transparency. They made it into a thing which makes their retrenchment and their cover up like so much worse.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, completely.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So that's why I think, you know, there's this whole theory on the right called. No, you're not. This will not be unfamiliar to you. Yeah. Never criticize your own side.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And I have always found first, no.

[Krystal Ball]

Enemies to the right is not what they say.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No enemies to the right. Which on the left is the same. Right. You know, anyone who's part of the revolution is part of the revolution. All right, so. But in this case it is so clear to me that people who criticize get more results. Because if it's something that you actually care about, look at Roe and Thomas Massie. They brute force this bill which the administration tried to kill through all of Congress and made. Donald Trump signed the bill which was to his own detriment. That was only made possible because I mean a small part show like ours, which is part of like this vast conduit which keeps the issue alive and to this day is forcing like continued transparency. If you want to have something be done, the worst thing you can be is sycophantic. Which is why I think it's really good that somebody like Sean Ryan or any of these other people continue to speak up about the issue. Because something in the zeitgeist is genuinely the only way that this will ever like where we even remotely come to some sort of transparency, even though I will still never believe most of what they put out. And I don't really think that that's where it is. I do hope, though, we can normalize this so when the Democrats, if they eventually come into power, actually just release the entire thing and then perhaps we will get closure one day.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Put E4 just last piece up on the screen to your point about sycophancy. So courageously you had, you needed four Republicans to sign on to, you know, to get this discharge petition through, to get this law passed. You had Thomas Massie, you had Marjorie Taylor Greene, you had Lauren Boebert, and you had Nancy Mace. And the White House aggressively went after Nancy Mace and Lauren Boebert in particular. And which one of them was that they pulled into the situation? One of them just didn't answer the phone.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Boebert.

[Krystal Ball]

Boebert. They like pulled into the situation where they could do the whole thing, like, full pressure campaign. And to her credit, she did not cave. She signed onto it. And that is the reason why this law was ultimately passed. Well, now they are all just trying to move on. They don't wanna talk about it anymore. Lauren Boebert in particular said, quote, I don't give a rip about Epstein. Like, there's so many other things we need to be working on. I've done what I had to do for Epstein. Talk to somebody else about that. It's no longer in my hands. So outside of Massie and then Marjorie Taylor Greene is out of Congress now, so outside of Massey on the Republican side, they really are all just hoping this sort of goes away. Like, they're probably hoping the administration wins in court, that the courts can't actually compel them to do anything and they just continue to sit on it and there's no drip, drip, drip, drip, drip that they have to deal with. They're just hoping this all goes away at this point.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And look, they could be right because, I mean, even we are subject to global affairs. This is our. What is it? E block. Right? I mean, what do we have to leave Lead with Davos Greenland? Yeah, I. I mean, look, I mean, it's not that you're falling for their game, but like, we do have to quite literally order the news in terms of its relative importance. And you can't be on top of everything at all times. That's part of the tragedy of their strategy is it usually does work whenever they're in power. I do hope if the Democrats, let's say, take the House in the midterms that they just, you know, create a Benghazi level shitstorm which makes them which constantly keeps it in the news, constantly forces, you know, reckoning or pressure on the administration because as they've already shown, they had to fold on this issue. I would say this is probably the biggest legislative loss that happened in Trump's entire presidency, even going back to 2006.

[Krystal Ball]

Biggest political loss. Which is shocking.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, shocking that it actually was able to come to fruit and that they didn't Bruce force it and eventually veto. So that shows the crack that people can continue to work through. Anyway, I think it's a positive development.

[Public Podcast Sponsor]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures so you want.

[Walton Goggins (GoDaddy Ad)]

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You see it instantly. It's Coldwater Creek, the mark of exceptional workmanship and signature touches. Inspired Inspired by a Mountain west heritage, distinctive styles Created from quality fabrics, silhouettes perfected with just the right drape. Feel good fits offering ease of movement and thoughtful details to elevate your look for a wardrobe you can count on season after season. Visit coldwatercreek.com Shop the new spring collection at 20% off $75 or more with code iheart20.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We would be remiss if we didn't give our flowers here to Ben Affleck and to Matt Damon in their recent appearance on Joe Rogan. Dropping several truth bombs not just about, but also about our movie industry and the way it currently works. Here's Ben's rumination on AI. You could have taken it straight out of like a Bloomberg analysis. Let's take a listen.

[Ben Affleck (Interview Segment)]

What I see is, for example, if you try to get ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini to write you something, it's really shitty. And it's shitty because by its nature it goes to the mean, to the average, and it's. And it's not reliable. And it's. I mean, I just can't stand to see what writes now. It's a useful tool if you're a writer and you're going, ah, what's the thing? I'm trying to set something up. Or somebody sends someone a letter, but it's delayed two days and gets. And it can give you some examples of that. I actually don't think it's very likely that it can. It's going to be able to write anything meaningful or. And in particular, that it's going to be making movies like from whole cloth, like Tilly Norwood. Like, that's. I don't think that's going to happen. I think it's not. I think it actually turns out the technology is not progressing in exactly the same way they sort of presented it. And really what it is is going to be a tool, just like sort of visual effects. And yeah, it needs to have language around it. You need to protect your name and likeness. You can do that. You can watermark it. Those laws already exist. You can't. I can't sell your fucking picture for money. I can't. You can sue me, period. It kind of feels to me like the thing we were talking about earlier where there's a lot more fear because we have the sense that's existential dread. It's gonna wipe everything out.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right.

[Ben Affleck (Interview Segment)]

But that actually runs counter, in my view, to what. What history seems to show, which is a adoption is slow, it's incremental. I think a lot of that rhetoric comes from people who are trying to justify valuations around companies where they go, we're going to change everything in two years, there's going to be no more work. Well the reason they're saying that is because they need to ascribe a valuation for investment that can warrant the capex spend they're going to make on these data centers with the argument that like, oh, as soon as we do the next model it's going to scale up. It can be three times as as good good except that actually chat GPT5 about 25 times percent better than chat GPT4 and costs about four times as much in the way of electricity and data. So those nicely. That's like plateauing. The early AI, the line went up very steeply and it's now sort of leveling off. I think it's because. And yes, it'll get better, but it's going to be really expensive to get better. And a lot of people were like, fuck this, we want ChatGPT4. Because it turned out like, like the vast majority of people who use AI are using it to like as like companion bots to chat with at night. And so there's no work, there's no productivity, there's no value to it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Has he been watching Breaking points like this guy's so good. But the reason why I thought it was important was because there is quite a bit of concern still around AI and its creative endeavors in Hollywood and there absolutely should be because of the potential. I mean, look at the new Avatar movie. Like it's insane sane what people are able to create literally like out of nothing, CGI technology and all of that, etc. But what I think he actually hit the nail on the head though is that while in the long run there remains quite a bit of danger in the immediate term, many of these companies are lying. Much of their behavior indicates that not there's nothing that great or new coming. ChatGPT putting in ads into the feed means, means we're kind of there for the interim period and we just need to monetize the shit out of this to continue pumping all of these data centers. And actually the difference between, you know, chat GPT 5 and 4.8 or whatever really only matters in like a few select cases. And though the data crunch is like immense but at the consumer level, like he said, we're talking about companion bots and all this other parasocial weirdo stuff which is causing all these social media pathology. So I actually think he just like really eloquently kind of put it together.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm a little skeptical. No, I know, I know, to be honest with you, because here's why. Is because of the economics of. Yes, to run all the data centers is very expensive, but to be the studio that says, you know, give me a plot that hits X, Y and Z points, and there it is. It's extremely cheap.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, that's true.

[Krystal Ball]

Extremely cheap. And so there's an assumption that they're going to care about quality that I just don't think is really true. I think when you have that level, there's going to be some large number of studios that push in the direction of we're just gonna do quantity over quality. I mean, you Already see this YouTube is in some ways kind of like a good place to see the way that these things will take off. You already have these channels that will just put out, like endless numbers of AI songs. I have for some of these, we've got. Yannis Varoufakis came on and talked about how there's all these channels that deep fake him and some of the videos genuinely hit. And so if you're just able to easily churn out a ton of content, that some of it's gonna be so shitty no one watches it, but some of it will be good enough that it does garner an audience. There are gonna be a lot of people who go in that direction of just, just slop creation, because the economics of it are everything and they don't give a shit about artistic creation. And so the fact that it's low quality. He's right. That it's low quality, there's no doubt about it, and it's improving marginally. But I do think he's right too, about the acceleration has slowed down in terms of the improvement curve. And it kind of is at a bit of a stasis right now, at least for the moment. But that to me doesn't rule out the possibility that it's going to come to dominate the sort of, like, creative space simply because of the way that the economics of it work.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, maybe I've made the great mistake of thinking that people value anything of artistic high talent and that slop will always win, which is usually the case, I guess, right now in our current system. You're not wrong. And at the end of the day, one thing that I thought was really important and illuminating from what they said, because they made this whole case for why there are new movies on Netflix, but they eventually kind of gave the game away about the executive and how they talk. And I'd never heard words put to It. But I had watched the first episode of this new Stranger Things. Just, you know, whatever. It's something to do during Christmas. And I was like, this is the shittiest written show I have ever seen in my entire life. Where they would gather around the table and consistently reiterate the plot and, like, bang you over the face. Which is the opposite of good writing. Good writing is when you're able to say all of these different. Just to be like, you remember our brother John? He died five years ago, right? You're just like, you need to try and engineer in a script to give that away without the character actually saying.

[Krystal Ball]

The central tension that we're exploring here is his breakup with Jamie.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Exactly correct. That is what all Netflix slop now currently sounds like. They revealed why that is. Because people are on their phones and you have to be banged over the head with the plot over and over again or you're gonna lose track. Here's what they had to say.

[J]

Experience of watching at home, I think, you know, you're watching in a room, the lights are on, other shit's going on, the kids are running around, the dogs are running around, whatever it is. You know what I mean? It's just a very different level of attention that you're willing to or that you're able to give to it. And that has a big effect. And it also ends up having an effect or is starting to have an effect on how you make movies. Like, for instance, Netflix. You know, the standard way to make an action movie that we learned was, you know, you usually have, like, three set pieces. One in the first act, one in the second, one in the third. And, you know, you kind of. They kind of ramp up. And the big one with all the explosions, and you spend most of your money on that one in the third act. That's your kind of finale. And now they're, you know, they're like, can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody? You know, we want people to stay tuned in. And Ken. And, you know, it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue because. Because people are on their phones while they're watching.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You know what I mean?

[J]

And so then it's gonna really start to infringe on creatively how we're telling.

[Ben Affleck (Interview Segment)]

But then you look at our lessons, it didn't do any of that.

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Didn't do any of that.

[Ben Affleck (Interview Segment)]

It's fucking great. You know what I mean?

[Saagar Enjeti]

See, that's why I was like. I was like, wow, that is why Netflix slop sounds the way that it does. It's because it's purely regression to the mean, as he just said with AI where anything, even, even great concept shows, I don't think it's deniable. Stranger Things season one, that was a phenomenon. People really love that show. But what it ended up being like, oh my God, it's horrific. And there are multiple of these kind of over the years and they just keep pumping out multiple seasons of this absolute nonsense, which just continues to get worse and worse and worse and worse. And I didn't realize how much of this second screen phenomenon is now being directly pressured into the very content which is now dominating. And so I don't know, sometimes this may be a long winded way of saying, like, I'm now afraid. Originally I was generally supportive of the, of Netflix buying Warner Brothers and HBO over Paramount, Skydance, but now I'm like, wait, we don't want this nonsense to come to HBO either. Like, I'm currently watching the show industry. I've never seen anything like it where it is now currently. Only they could do that. Like, only they could do that. And it would never be able to exist in the sloppiest world of where we are right now on Netflix. So maybe you're correct that the AI slop is ultimately just what's going to take over.

[Krystal Ball]

And these guys were very like, they were very optimistic and they were very like, you know, they were talking about how, look, we've experienced these changes throughout history and people every time are upset about what's lost, but ultimately, you know, it's more convenient for people to be at home on their, like, you know, watching them have usually got a big, nice flat screen tv and it's a convenient experience. And they did talk about how you do lose something. That is a different experience when you have the distractions contained in your house, whether it's your kids or your dog or your chores or whatever it is, that that is a different experience from being in the theater together. But they were sort of like ambivalent. They were like, that's fine. But, you know, I've kind of come to view things a little bit differently of that. All of the people in the past who warned about the radio is gonna take away from family time or the TV is going to create this like homogenous culture and we're gonna be, you know, and the warnings they had about that and the way that it would turn you into a zombie, like, they weren't wrong.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, they were all correct.

[Krystal Ball]

They were all correct. And they were correct about that there would be things that would be lost that come along with that technology. And the fact that we grew up with it and that was just the only world that we knew and we were fine with it, doesn't mean that they were incorrect about the parts of life that would be pushed to the margins by the advent of that technology.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. One of my friends just recommended this book to me. I think it's called like Tech Exit. I love this. She quit television. She deleted all social media, which, that's like step one. She quit tv, period. She does not watch television anymore. She's a mom of two. And I was like, man, that's like, I kind of want to, I want to try it a little bit, you know, as somebody. Because exactly what you're talking about is, you know, the original. It started with the TV dinner in the 50s and the 60s, which took people away from the dinner table. And then what it became is now people will, they may even be sitting, you know, how many times have you gone out to dinner and somebody across the table from you is like this on their phone?

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And so now we created the device which is now here, everywhere. And you know, not to be like a crazy Luddite, especially for two people who make their career on the Internet, but it's one of those where in your own personal life you're right in that you do have to ask and say that many of the most vicious critics, like when we think back about the television and what people said about that maybe in like in the late 80s and 90s, especially with cable TV, there was a real reckoning. The same way you are talking about AI. They're like, this is a disaster. It's actually going to destroy. You know, at that time people were watching seven hours of TV per day, family unit. It'll make everybody dumber. I think they, they were probably right. You know, it did, it did kill critical thinking. If you want to look really the most disastrous statistics around phones and AI is books. The amount of Americans now who read even one book a year is like at a record all time low. The bookstore industry is only, is only prospering at the high end for people who make it like a social currency in value to read read. And professors across the country are talking about how all people do is just chatgpt summarize books and readings instead of actually engaging or reading with the text. I think it's a. I mean, obviously not only in terms of people making people dumber, but then you create a Culture, just like you're talking about with TV and radio, where if your kids don't even see you reading, like, my kid is now at this age where she wants to eat what I want to eat, which is a very powerful thing because you're like, wow, mimicry is literally the way that these children develop and learn in the world. Well, she would never see me, you know, I famously have only listened to audiobooks for 10 years. I started breaking out the real books again because I'm like, she needs to see me read because then she'll want to read. That's the only way to normalize the type of behavior.

[Krystal Ball]

But you have to be very intentional about that. Because my 8 year old, Ida, we were talking about reading and how much I enjoy it and whatever. She's like, you never read? I was like, what are you talking about? But it's because she, yeah, she doesn't see me with the book. And even if I am reading a physical book, it's usually on like, like my phone.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

And then. But mostly what I do is listen to audiobooks.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, same.

[Krystal Ball]

So, yeah, I had that realization recently of, like, oh, like, even though I am a reader and it is an important part of my life, she actually is not witnessing that. But in any case, to go back to, I mean, we also have to acknowledge, like, even as obviously the drawbacks, blah, blah, blah, we also, we like having the thing, you know, I mean, there are, obviously, there are positive things about it too, which is why it is so widespread and why it has, you know, completely taken over the culture. But in any case, the two guys, very thoughtful, very interesting conversations, especially the first half.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it was very good. Yeah, I will listen to them talk anytime, any day. Also, Matt, Ben, if you're listening, man, would love to talk. We can. We can talk all day. We don't even have to talk about new movies. We can only do old. That would be even better. All right, thank you everybody for listening. We appreciate it. I know we went very long today, so the show is going to be late. It is what it is. I hope you enjoy it nonetheless. And counter. No. Ryan and Emily will see you all tomorrow. There is no counter.

[Krystal Ball]

The show formerly, I don't know why, that's what I like to call it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Ryan and Emily will see you all tomorrow.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Krystal Ball]

Guaranteed Human.