Krystal Ball (2:22)

Did we do a lot that is interesting this morning? We had some breaking news overnight. President Trump posting the private text messages that he had with Emmanuel Macron and others as well as he gets set for Davos and Greenland updates there. We've also got Don Lemon now threatened with charges by the administration for documenting an anti ICE protest that disrupted church services. We've got some new crazy censorship crackdowns on Israel that you with regard to Israel commentary that you have to see to believe. Josh Shapiro, so the Shapiro in the show bar here is Josh, not Ben is mad about. The VP vetting process is a pretty interesting one. Sean Ryan is mad about the White House protecting pedophiles. Some Epstein updates for you as well. And Matt Damon and Ben Affleck sounding off on AI. Some pretty interesting comments there from those two guys.

Saagar Enjeti (3:10)

Yeah, I know. I mean, look, I love Matt, love Ben. Together they're the perfect dynamic duo. And every like six months they just do. Ben in particular will just drop like immense wisdom in like a six, in like a six minute period, particularly on AI and we're like man, you know, the Good Will Hunting gang.

Krystal Ball (3:27)

He's had some epic Bill Maher appearances. Ben Affleck, he's the legendary.

Saagar Enjeti (3:31)

That's why I just don't, I don't understand how that person can in the same body as the tabloid figure of like involving all of his J. Lo and all of this other stuff. Like what is going on here?

Krystal Ball (3:41)

Some guys love a crazy bitch. That's just how it is.

Saagar Enjeti (3:44)

He's just, he's the goat. But anyway, we'll talk about. I have not watched the rip. I will admit I have not watched it yet.

Krystal Ball (3:51)

It's supposed to be good, right?

Saagar Enjeti (3:52)

I don't know. I haven't seen any of the reviews or anything. I've unfortunately been out of the game when it comes to film. Thank you to everybody who has been subscribing to our YouTube channel. We have noticed unfortunately, that many of you who watch our videos do not subscribe. So please hit the subscribe button and and if you are listening to this on a podcast, share an episode with a friend or rate us 5 stars. And then finally, if you want to Support our work, BreakingPoints.com, we could deeply appreciate it. We've got all of the extra premium things that we've got going on and we're always putting out new shows on five days a week. You get of course the AMA benefits which we're going to be doing later today. So breakingpoints.com if you want to become a premium subscriber. So let's go ahead Crystal and start with the overnight breaking news, the Macron text. It's really not the techs. The most important thing, it's the economic fallout as the Greenland crisis, I guess you could call it, continues threatening the strength of the U.S. dollar and potential economic fallout here in the U.S. yeah.

Krystal Ball (4:44)

So let's go ahead and we had a big truth social burst overnight that we woke up to and had to incorporate into the show that is already moving markets. So let's put this up on the screen. Among other things that he posted was this, which the French have now confirmed is a legitimate private message that was sent to Trump from French President Emmanuel Macron. He says, my friend, we are totally in line on Syria to do my French accent. We can do great things on Iran. I do not understand what you're doing on Greenland. Let us try to build great things. Number one, I can set up a G7 meeting after Davos in Paris on Thursday afternoon. I can invite the Ukrainians, the Danish, the Syrians and the Russians in the margins. Let us have a dinner together in Paris together on Thursday before you go back to the US So pretty interesting in terms of the tone here. It just shows you behind the scenes how much they all suck up to him. You also had the Secretary General of NATO, Mark Root. Is that how you say his name? In any case, we got even more sort of slavishly fawning text messages from him as well. So this is the tone that is being professed to President Trump from the Europeans behind the scenes. The Mark root one says, Mr. President, dear Donald Trump, what you accomplished in Syria today is incredible. I will use my media engagements in Davos to highlight your work there in Gaza and in Ukraine. I'm committed to finding a way forward on Greenland. Can't wait to see you. Yours, Mark.

Saagar Enjeti (6:14)

Oh my God, these people are so pathetic.

Krystal Ball (6:18)

I mean, it's embarrassing for everyone involved. Like posting the private text messages you're getting from various world leaders is crazy. B. I mean, it's crazy. That is psychotic behavior from literally anyone, especially from the President, United States. But this tone from them I can understand, I guess a little bit more. That's why he's Secretary General of NATO, because truly his fate is held in the palm of Trump's hands. But I mean, like Emmanuel Macron, have some self respect.

Saagar Enjeti (6:44)

No, they.

Krystal Ball (6:44)

You're the leader of a sovereign nation, supposedly.

Saagar Enjeti (6:46)

I said this yesterday. I cannot stand the hypocrisy of these people. Can we put the text message please back up on the screen because look and note what they deal with. We can totally in line in our Al Qaeda backed regime in Syria, where, by the way, there are currently literally massacres where women are having their throats slit on camera. If anybody's interested, we can do great things on Iran oh, so we can do regime change in Iran. But Greenland, oh man, this is why all of their worship on all of this is of the UN charter. They are happy to sponsor these CIA black wars that happened in Syria over the last 14 years. They had nothing whatsoever. They basically celebrated turning into an Israeli rump state.

Krystal Ball (7:28)

Horrific massacre happening in Syria right now. By the way, Ryan and Dropsite have.

Saagar Enjeti (7:33)

Been documenting, I hate to say I've watched some of these videos. You know, it is horrible. It's like worse than Gaza in some respects. Like not because it's not like we're talking about hand to hand physical combat and actual like torture of people that are happening now. We have, we can do great things on Iran so we can do regime change, we can violate the UN Charter, international principles, all of that. But again, oh, Greenland, oh well you can't have that because that's about European sovereignty. This is where these people are just completely, not only spineless, but it demonstrates that they just want carve outs for themselves. They backed the US kidnapping of Maduro, they said that the Venezuelan government was illegitimate and they just never. And at the very same time, oh well, it would be a violation of international norms for Russia to invade Ukraine. But oh, if the United States wants to take Venezuela, we wanna do regime change on it. We are totally aligned.

Krystal Ball (8:26)

We wanna take over Gaza and own.

Saagar Enjeti (8:28)

Gaza, are gonna take over Gaza, the border, you know, the only thing they object to on the board of peace is that we're not colonizing Gaza the correct way. Right. It's like it's not that they care whenever it comes to self determination. So they have never understood that if you're going to operate like this then yes, you will open the door not just to China, Taiwan or any of the other us, Russia and Ukraine. Yes. Now the United States can come in with the same logic if they under their, you know, under the way that they operate and be like, okay, we're gonna take gre. And so this is where you cannot have sympathy for these leaders. They have no self respect whatsoever. Like you were saying on NATO and Makara, it just gives the whole game away. NATO is part of the American empire, end of story, period. Especially whenever it comes to military power. That's why they're freaking out right now because they know that if this quote blows up NATO, which again, you know, don't threaten me with a good time. Well what it demonstrates is the farcical nature of like the entire way that they have tried to operate as quasi independent. And if you're a European Watching this, you should be furious with your leaders for allowing you to be in this position. This is why the people I respect the most are the French and the European right who are like, listen, we have completely mortgaged our economic and foreign policy to these Brussels bureaucrats who work on behalf of a block instead of our own national interests. And I will also respect them because they're not sucking up to America. They're like, no, bitch, we're European.

Krystal Ball (10:04)

That is not true. They are sucking up to America.

Saagar Enjeti (10:06)

No, AFC and the French, right, on the, on the Greenland thing are not going along whatsoever.

Krystal Ball (10:10)

You may be talking a little bit. Yeah, but I mean, the AFC, for example. What I mean is the AFC was 100% sucking up to the American right. The one thing they broke on is Greenland, which is actually not that important. But that's not that different from what the liberals are doing at this point because they suck up to Trump on everything too, and are also drawing the line at Greenland. So I don't see their positions as being all that different, to be honest.

Saagar Enjeti (10:29)

And the reason I take it differently is because they're like, no, we will never allow another country to come in to dictate, like, what exactly it means for us as Europeans to have our foreign policy. That is the prime. Like, that is the prime principle whenever it comes to being nationalists. And so fundamentally, like, what these people have done is put themselves into a corner where they want to endorse Western imperialism and take over of the globe, except whenever it applies to their own territory. So they have no leg to stand on.

Krystal Ball (10:59)

I mean, zooming out, the deal Post World War II, as we discussed yesterday with Jeffrey Sachs, and I really encourage you guys to listen to that interview, is effectively, okay, we're going to take care of. You don't have to spend that much on your defense. You can rely on us for that. And we're going to do NATO, we're going to have our bases, you can count on our nuclear umbrella. We're going to have Article 5, whatever, we're going to have all of that. And in return, you are going to accept the dollar as the world's reserve currency. And that is an enormous, incalculable benefit to us. So the only really strategic move on the table, there's two possibilities. One is what they're doing, which is basically like, has been appeasement. Like, let's see if we can they talk to this guy. Also, this is why it's humiliating for Trump, too. They talk to him like he's a toddler that you're trying to appease and get to go to bed. Or, you know, like, oh, if you're a good boy, then we can have a, you know, we can have a nice time tomorrow, whatever. Like, like they talk to him like he's a child and clearly see him as a psychopathic, like emotionally volatile, insane person. That totally comes through in the way the tenor of the text here. But in any case can do that, which is what they've been doing. Or you can reach out to the rest of the world a la what Canada is doing with China and you can try to okay, we're not getting that defense part of the deal anymore, then you're not gonna be able to reliably count on us to follow your policy vis a vis China. Like for eXamp, the UK at our request, banned Huawei technology in the UK. I mean, okay, so those sorts of things are not going to happen anymore. And they also hold a good bit of our debt, of our treasury debt. Start selling some of that into the market like if you want, and there is no choice on the board at this point other than to look elsewhere in the world and to try to achieve your own sovereignty. At this point.

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Krystal Ball (14:59)

Let me put M1 up on the screen because we also had this, which Trump posted as well, which is, you know him with this map that has Canada and Greenland and Venezuela and you pointed out Cuba.

Saagar Enjeti (15:10)

Yes. If you zoom in, you can actually see Cuba and Venezuela there. Cuba's very small there as an island. But if you do zoom in, you can see that.

Krystal Ball (15:17)

Yeah, so all under the American flag. So this is another thing that he posted. And to your point, you know, the markets are reacting to all of this including the, you know, the tariff threats and the ramping up the trade war. Put M2 up on the screen. Dollar falls sharply. Wall street stocks set for heavy losses after Greenland crisis. You know, at the time of this writing, you've got, let's see, US currency fell 0.7% against the euro. Futures are tracking the S&P 500 down 1.5%. Amid increasing transatlantic tensions and threats of a trade war. Tech focused NASDAQ futures were down 1.9%. Also the US 10 year treasury bond yields are up, which is a bad thing. That means our debt is more expensive. So a lot of tumult in the markets this morning because of the wild actions of the President of the United States and all of the turmoil that that entails. And the other thing with these, you know, the trade thing is like the EU and the UK thought they had these trade deals. And Keir Starmer, who is pathetic and unpopular, I mean, most of these leaders that we're talking, like Emmanuel Macron is really unpopular in France, which is another thing, just politically like the leaders who stand up to Trump, obviously their approval ratings skyrocket.

Saagar Enjeti (16:38)

Look at Lula.

Krystal Ball (16:38)

Yeah, look at Lula Petro. Look at, I mean Sheinbaum is really popular. Like you know, Carney, the whole reason he's Prime Minister is because of Canada's fight with Trump, et cetera. But in any case, so politically it doesn't even make any sense. But this is the landscape where we are. They thought they had these trade deals in place. Starmer thought that this was some win that he could take and say, look, this thing that I negotiated was going to be beneficial for us, blah, blah, blah. Now, nope, that's all out the window. You can't do a deal with this person because he is so volatile. He is so much like a child, an unpredictable toddler, constantly in danger of doing something insane or throwing some sort of tantrum that may be self destructive and self defeating ultimately and just, you know, so you can't, you can't rely on anything that he says or any deal that you strike with.

Saagar Enjeti (17:29)

All of that can be true. But you can also look at the people who have successfully negotiated with Trump and have come out on the right end. You've got Mexico, you've got China and.

Krystal Ball (17:37)

You'Ve got Russia, where are like invade and bomb Mexico. I don't, I wouldn't say that that's been like a, you know, it hasn't.

Saagar Enjeti (17:43)

Happened yet and they wanted to do.

Krystal Ball (17:44)

It doesn't happen yet.

Saagar Enjeti (17:45)

They met. Claudia Sheinbaum had, has not only been able to work with them on fentanyl drug cartels, but has also maintained her popularity and has kept trade flowing. Look at the Chinese. The Chinese, immediately, whenever we levied tariffs on them, they just doubled it and then doubled it and doubled it again.

Krystal Ball (18:01)

Well, that's the thing.

Saagar Enjeti (18:01)

And then all of that completely went away.

Krystal Ball (18:03)

They showed strength. Yes, they showed strength. And I don't know why these people can't get it in their heads. That is the only thing that he respects. It's the only thing he respects. And so if you're not willing and look, everybody knows the lopsided nature of the relationship, but it's not like the Europeans have nothing they can do. And Trump is not really down for a lot of pain. He's very worried about the stock market. You know, he's going to be looking at these treasury bond yields. That was the thing that pulled him back from the first Liberation Day. Right. So he's going to be looking closely at this. And so if you, you know, start selling some treasuries into the market, not, you know, it doesn't have to be a whole huge deal, but if you signal, hey, listen, we've got some things we can do and it's going to cause you some pain. He has not really have that kind of willpower to stay in it. And the only thing that he will ever respect is you standing strong. So these text messages, like, it's, it's so embarrassing. It's so the wrong way to deal with him. It's humiliating on the world stage. Like I said, I think it's also humiliating for him because of the way people feel because of. Because revealing these sorts of things is just like inherently disgusting. Everybody's had that situation where their friend or their. It's like an abusive relationship is what you get from these text messages.

Saagar Enjeti (19:18)

Right. But the point is around this is that they can't get out of it and they have to continue. And also, we all know none of their behavior will change. They'll be privately furious, there'll be a Le Monde report, and then come Davos. They're gonna be kissing each other on the cheek and pretending that none of this ever happened. Cuz they're pathetic, they're weak people. And, and you look at this situation and I don't know, like for me, yes, you can owe Trump bad, et cetera, but you have to look at these people who lack self respect and who for 25 years have been warned that the NATO security umbrella. Your lack of investment in the way that you structure your society has turned you into a vassal state incapable of defending your own sovereignty and acting independently. And this is the net and the end result. That's why the people who either decoupled or built up their domestic strong militaries, they always had some sor of a plan B. India, China, Russia, some of the South American countries are the ones who stand strong today. Remember our trade crisis with India? Nothing happened, literally nothing to them. And. But they're doing fine. They're absolutely fine down there. I mean, and so you look at these European leaders in this current context, and you're right. You know, the Japanese are the ones who dumped a huge number of US debt after Liberation Day, and that's ultimately what caused us to buckle. Don't forget that they also got a trade deal where all they had to do was like some fake promises about about $500 billion and it's effectively in place right now with a modest amount of tariffs. Their economy is okay, and their own leader is conservative, like quasi nationalist, trying to keep it relations with the US but they've handled it well. And of course we respect them. We don't respect the French and NATO and all these other people who are gonna be flocking at Davos and who are gonna be kissing his ass in 24 hours. This isn't even the first text message, private text message. People forget that Mark Rut has sent Trump, which has been released. And he's the same guy. Yeah. You know, because we track this stuff every day. I remember, I also remember when he called Trump daddy whenever it comes to. Yeah, look at that these are the people we're dealing with.

Krystal Ball (21:19)

Yeah. And again, I can. With NATO, I mean, his whole fate isn't like, I, like, I sort of get the embarrassing nature of what he's doing here.

Saagar Enjeti (21:30)

It didn't have to be this way, but you made it this way.

Krystal Ball (21:33)

But the thing, I mean. I mean, listen, with Macron, I will say he is the one European leader who came out and said they should use what they call this, like, trade bazooka. Like, we should use the most aggressive measures we have in our toolkit to push back against this. And he does say in this message, like, listen, we gotta do something on it. Like, I love you on Syria and I love you on Iran, blah, blah, blah. Greenland's another matter. But the overall approach of the Europeans, the rest of the world has to get their act together. I mean, that's just the truth of the matter. You have to move away from the U.S. you have to unite and you have to move away through us. You have to, like, you know, do what BRICS has done. You have to do what Mark Carney is doing and striking these deals with, with China. And I think you're right that Ukraine is a big part of the reason why the Europeans have not gotten their act together to, you know, unite, have some pushback, show a little bit of battle.

Saagar Enjeti (22:28)

Let me just expand on that.

Krystal Ball (22:29)

Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti (22:30)

The main reason that they can't do anything is because they're obsessed with Ukraine. And I've tried to make this point for the Europeans, too. If you're French, you should not mortgage your foreign policy, sovereignty, and national pride to the Eastern Donbass region of Ukraine. That's what's currently happening. The European leaders are so panicked that Trump will go and make a side deal with Russia on Ukraine. They have to. They have to start. This is like the destabilization of their complete, like, mortgaging of sovereignty from the European Union to now the expansion of NATO has created this crisis, like you should be. I mean, I could go on for a long time, but, like, just thinking about how vindicated the de Gaulle vision was about the United States, NATO, and how he would drive us crazy at times. But in retrospect, he is one of the most vindicated Europeans of all time who saw this very, very early on, and they moved away from that vision, and that's on them. They turned themselves into vassal states. They have no true economies that are capable of producing things at scale which make them truly independent and economically viable. They're totally dependent on us, and they've created A situation where they have to act like this in public and their own democracies. Look, I'm not European, I don't pretend to be. But for those people they have created and put you in a situation where you're emasculated to such a historic degree. And you know, it's funny, I shouldn't be cheering for people to unite against America. I like balance. I think balance creates stability. This is why I would always talk about Israel. If we had a balanced nature in the Middle east, none of this would happen. There would be nothing with Palestine. And they're also, you know, Syria would be a relatively stable state and Iran too. Everything would be created and have a situation where mutually assured destruction or some credible threat would make it so that rogue gangsterism is impossible. Now here with the US we have a similar situation where, look, Trump is an aberration, but all he does is dial up everything that we do. He takes it from 6 to 11. The United States has been operating this way for quite some time. It's caused great pain to us as citizens and you know, the world has accepted it. And so I like balance because it creates ultimately stability and, and we have lived in a totally unbalanced world, largely not just because of our own actions, cuz we've mortgaged really, you know, our unipolar moment. We also are in this situation because of exactly people like this. And so I don't know, I just, maybe I'm being too hard.

Krystal Ball (25:08)

I just think they're completely my. I guess perhaps cope on all of this is that I'm hoping that Trump's. The brazenness and undeniable nature of the way that Trump operates in the room will force that sort of reckoning. Because listen, the older. The old world order was already bankrupt, right? It was. And these, you know, the international institutions, which I would love to, I would love them to be functioning, I would love for international law to actually have some teeth and for there to be rules of the road. That is not the world that we live in. And Trump has just, Trump has made that undeniable. And so I am hoping that that forces a realignment of the world order that leads to a something that is genuinely better, that is genuinely functional, that strikes some sort of balance. The danger and the risk is that if, is that we are breaking apart the post World War II order, which for all its flaws did keep us out of World War three. So we do have made it fantastically rich, made this country fantastic. I mean, it was a great deal for the US like all of the, you know, Trump's carping, oh, it's not fair, the Europeans taking advantage of blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, we set up these institutions, we set up this order to benefit us. It has been fantastically beneficial to the United States of America by design. But putting that aside, you know, my fear is that we're breaking apart those institutions without replacing them with a more stable order. And we cannot afford to do that because now we have a nuclear world, now we have AI driven killer robots. It is a different, It's a different time. And so that's the fear. The hope is that this forces some sort of a reckoning and a building of a world order that is actually superior.

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Krystal Ball (28:33)

Speaking of that sort of like brazenness and reckoning, some of that is coming through at Davos, which is in a very interesting identity crisis kind of moment. We can put a zero up on the screen. Trump is gonna be speaking there tomorrow. It's the World Economic Forum. You know, all of the world, like global elites, gather here. Infamously, CEOs from major companies, ton of world leaders show up, et cetera. And it says, as Davos can mean, deference to Trump has replaced everything. So previously, the ethos of Davos was always stridently neoliberal. Right? Meaning that they, you know, they, they want total market freedom, they want low taxes for themselves, they want low regulation, but they also want to go to Davos and talk about, get paid lip service to how they're going to make the world a better place.

Saagar Enjeti (29:23)

Climate change, they're going to buy carbon credits.

Krystal Ball (29:25)

They did something, it talks about in this one year just to give you a sense of this sort of thing. They had like the refugee experience or would like, be blindfolded and hear gunshots or whatever. Anyway, that's like you fly in on your private jet, right? Where after, you know, you're the ExxonMobil CEO or whatever, you fly in on your private jet after doing horrific things in the developing world, and then you spend a couple days publicly pretending like you care about making the world a better place. The world that you are personally defiling and, and behind the scenes, you're doing deals with the other business leaders and world leaders there to continue consolidating wealth, power and defiling said world. So that was the previous Davos ethos. Now, in the Trump era, that sort of patina of we need to be responsible citizens, we need to care about poverty or world hunger or climate change or refugee crises or whatever, that's all kind of out the window. So the, the theme this year, I don't remember, it's something very generic. It's like big ideas or something like that. I have to look at the article. It was something like that, like the most generic thing that you could possibly think of. And, you know, a lot of committed.

Saagar Enjeti (30:38)

To improving the state of the world.

Krystal Ball (30:40)

No, that's not it. That's not even it. Oh, you're right. The slogan, the slogan of the forum committed to. That's the overall one. But no, the specific one for this year is a spirit of dialogue. That's the theme. Spirit of dialogue.

Saagar Enjeti (30:53)

A lot of stuff that turns me into like a raging, like a true radical where, like, oh, it makes me.

Krystal Ball (30:59)

Turns me into a communist.

Saagar Enjeti (31:01)

Yeah. I'm like, I cannot believe we are ruled by such incompetent, pathetic people.

Krystal Ball (31:08)

And so the, the previous thing has all been like, the hypocrisy. Right. The thing now is the brazen business. And, you know, that's, that's the shift. And there's going to be a lot of talk about AI and crypto. And all of that, but really they're in sort of the previous. The guy who's founded World Economic Forum, Klaus Schwab, he stepped down. You've now got, I think the head of like blackrock is running it along with somebody else, I don't remember. And, and yeah, so they're in kind of like a, they're in kind of an identity crisis because they don't know how to exactly position themselves. Now in the era of China, Trump. Trump is planning on going there and making some sort of a speech. You know, it also comes at a time of incredible, like, world historic levels of income inequality. Put a three up on the screen. This is from Gabriel Zuckman, who is one of the leading foremost trackers of wealth inequality. Fantastic economist, he says back in 1910. So like at the peak of the Gilded era, the richest 0.00001% households in the US owned wealth equivalent US national income. Today that amount is 12%. The wealth and power of the super rich, he says, now far exceeds its Gilded Age peak. And you can see the lines on this graph that just effectively go completely vertical. And it's set to continue even more aggressively in that direction with the advent of AI, these giant tech companies, these giant tech, you know, tech oligarchs who seek to become, and are on track to become the world's first trillionaires. Productivity in this country in particular is spiking, but workers are seeing none of those gains. They are all flowing to the very. I'm not even talking about the top 1%. The top, as he says, 0.00001% are the ones who are consolidating the vast majority of the wealth and political power. And so that is really the backdrop in the context of Davos this year as well.

Saagar Enjeti (33:05)

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's why, that is why, look, we were originally gonna talk about inequality. Not only that, but Trump is planning on making an affordability pitch. I will say, you know, one of the problems here, as much as I would love to crap on the Europeans and all that, that's more of a side project for me personally. It's just a personal side quest of a long held vendetta I have against the continent. But, you know, the thing that really matters is affordability. And actually, you know, out of the inequality graphic, it's really the importance of how people are able to make, make it here and to be able to fulfill even like a modicum or hope that your children are going to have a better life than you currently have. Which is just currently not the case for the entire millennial generation. That's the sound like that is why the Greenland thing. Even though, as you know, my feelings are well known, most people are going to look at this and be like, I don't care about Greenland. This is insane. Like, why are you wasting capital?

Krystal Ball (33:59)

8% support, right?

Saagar Enjeti (34:01)

Because people, they're like, I don't ultimately care that much about it. Like, this is not 1815 or whatever the. The Louisiana Purchase was, where it's like, there's this vast land where we get to move into and all these resources that we're gonna get. Because at this point, as you just pointed out, even if we were to have this idea of all these minerals and things in Greenland, which we'd be able to exploit, nobody's under the illusion that we're all gonna get rich because of that, because of the way that the markets and wealth and all of that is distributed broadly. Right. Like, we understand that this would be a bonanza to a certain select few of companies that we personally the though would not reap the benefits.

Krystal Ball (34:37)

Correct.

Saagar Enjeti (34:37)

That's the issue that I think, you know, structurally, they're never gonna be able to solve. Like, from what I've understood in my conversations around, I'm like, what is up with the Greenland thing? Cause, like, you know, what is it? And they're like, well, first of all, and I keep using this term, it's a sugar high. They're just literally like, they're basking in Midnight Hammer and Venezuela. They're like, we can do anything. We're America, bitch. Is basically the Trump Doctrine. And in that they're like, well, this is something where he could solidify his legacy as expanding the territory of the United States. More than any time since 18. I forget when the steward purchase of Alaska was, I think it was like 1868, that it would be the biggest expansion of the map. And he loves that. But again, this is a central problem for Trump. The more that things are about him personally and using the US As a plaything and not about any of us, that's the fundamental issue in his job. General politics. Okay, let's get to the church.

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Saagar Enjeti (37:14)

To Minneapolis, there's been a very high profile protest, I guess if you could call it, where a bunch of BLM activists who are now part of the anti ICE movement stormed into a church in the state of Minnesota. The reasoning behind this was that they had found names of ICE officers and suspected that one of the pastors at this church was the leader of a local ICE field office. It did end up, by the way, that the pastor, who they allege was an ICE officer, was not even present there at the time. Instead of a high profile incident now showdown with the Trump administration. Don Lemon, the current YouTube streamer, I guess a disgraced ex CNN anchor was actually present at the protest, which has heightened some of the discussion around this. So we're gonna show you some of the clips that has happened. We're gonna discuss it on the other side. Let's take a listen.

Reporter/Field Correspondent (38:05)

So you can see the protesters here have gathered over here. They're in the middle of the church. During the beginning of the church service, the pastor was speaking and Nekima stood up and said her peace and then the protesters surrounded her. But this is a clandestine mission. I think they found out one of according to them, this is according to Operation Pull up, that one of the pastors here is a member of ice. And so here we go and we were interrupted by this group of protesters. We asked them to leave and they obviously have not left. What do you think of This, I mean, this is unacceptable. It's shameful. It's shameful to. To interrupt a public gathering of Christians in worship. But there were folks. I have to take care of my flock. Listen, we live in a. There's a constitution in the First Amendment to freedom of speech and freedom to assemble and protest. We're here to worship. We're here to worship Jesus because that's the hope of these cities, that's the hope of the world, is Jesus Christ. I'm gonna be very respectful. Please don't push me, though. We're here. We're here, here to worship Jesus. That's why we're here. Tell you is that there are varying arrays of views on the political situation here. What do I tell you? What do you. What do you mean by that? I'm going to leave it at that. But there. There's varying array of views in this church on politics, of immigration. Recognize the complexity issue.

Sponsor Voice (39:36)

Yeah.

Reporter/Field Correspondent (39:36)

Some people don't like what's happening. Some people like it. I'm not going to reduce it to that. I won't reduce it that simply. But we've not. How is the complexity of the situation? Thank you, sir. I appreciate you talking. By the way, just so you know, this is what you get with independent journalism that you will not get with corporate media. I'm just here to tell you. So if you're in the chat, if you're with us, support us. Support us. Support us. Like and subscribe. Become a member. Support independent journalism.

Saagar Enjeti (40:05)

So there's Don in the church asking for people to like and subscribe after accompanying these activists where he appeared to have had some foreknowledge. This is relevant, by the way, whenever we'll get to some of the charges that may be levied against him with the Trump administration, of all of these protesters who decide, because they suspect, again, they did not even have it confirmed. It's been confirmed now, later, that a pastor who was not there was potentially a leader of the local ICE office that they decided to come in to disrupt this service, to harass, intimidate and scream at, including, by the way, women and children. And if anybody's wondering, it was a multiracial congregation. I don't know, Crystal. I mean, looking at this, I think that the spirit of BLM is alive and well. It's very clear, specifically because it's also a BLM group that was behind this protest. And I've actually been frustrated that everybody's talking about Don Lemon and not about the actions of these protesters themselves. And then the reaction from Democratic lawmakers. So you had the Minnesota state attorney general defend this protest action. And he said, well, people will have to feel uncomfortable. So he doesn't see anything unlawful here. He actually doesn't think it's a violation of the Face Act. You had the state governor, Governor Walsh of Minnesota put out some mealy mouthed statement. And it's like, this is just seems intrinsic to me. And I remember in our debate, you know, people got mad cause I talked about liberal protest norms. This is liberal protest. Like they seem to believe it is okay. And again, this is a violation actually of federal law, at least clear cut. To me. Whenever you have the Face act, which was written in 1994, specifically says you can't intimidate and go in and disrupt religious worship services. It is unbelievable to me like that there is no general consensus and effectively just silence. In the same way that you see many right wingers be silent on, let's say, the excesses of ICE to what is something which is so egregious in its form of protest. And it seems completely normalized and permissed, like in the liberal establishment within the state of Minnesota and the fact that the attorney general immediately dismiss it, the local police, police literally doing nothing whenever these people. And again, let's be clear, screaming, making children cry, following them to their cars, intimidation, direct trespass, not leaving whenever they want. I just, I truly do not understand how can this, this cannot be like actually condemned, especially when this already happened in 2020 and there was a massive backlash against it. So I really actually want, like, I don't understand as somebody who swims in this world, like what is happening here, like how is it that this is completely permissed and it's just like, oh, our side is good so they can do whatever they want. The Minnesota state Attorney general is making a big stink about political, you know, political persecution or non prosecution or whatever in the Renee Goode case immediately comes out and says that this is totally fine, especially in a state where you had a shooting very recently in church. Like how could you possibly try to encourage this type of behavior? I just don't get it.

Krystal Ball (43:09)

So let's separate a few things out.

Saagar Enjeti (43:11)

And that's why I don't want to talk about Don Lemon, because, you know.

Krystal Ball (43:14)

But we do need to talk about Don Lemon because that's what they're focused on. And the administration is threatening to charge him specifically with Face act and also with the KKK violation, which is insane. So I watched a good bit. I didn't watch the whole thing But I watched a good bit of his stream, and to be honest with you, it was genuinely good. Like, it was like. I mean, we played a little bit of it here. He was tipped off by the protesters that they were gonna do this action. Okay. As a journalist, and no doubt he has a perspective. That doesn't mean that he isn't a journalist. Right. So as a journalist, he goes in, he documents what they're doing. As you saw, he spoke with the pastor, he spoke with parishioners. You know, he at times, was asking them challenging questions, but he also asked those challenging questions of the protesters as well. So, of course, you come away with a sense of where Don Lemon is on the issue. But actually, for me, it was genuinely valuable to watch his stream and to hear from the parishioners themselves, because if you do just come at this from either a right or a left perspective, then you're gonna have a very flattened view of the human beings involved. But, you know, it actually gave me sort of more texture and more context to be able to think about whether this was a sound, tactical approach, hearing, like, that guy that we heard there who's like, listen, you know, to be honest with you, there's a lot of different political views in this church. There were other people there who said, you know, to be honest with you, like, some of what the protesters are saying, like, I kind of agree with. I just. This, to me, is way out of line, and it's, you know, too comfortable, and I'm very upset about what they've done here. But to be honest with you, some of the things that they're saying might be things that I agree with. So in terms of. As a journalistic endeavor, I think you should like and subscribe. He's on the ground in Minneapolis. He is actually tracking what is going on here and giving you a window in. That is not just caricature. Ish. So the idea of charging him is truly insane. And we all know the reason why they are focusing on him, which I think is also worth saying as well. Because he's famous, because he's liberal, because he's hated. Yes. I think because he's black and gay, all of that plays into it.

Saagar Enjeti (45:31)

But he's the first person to remind you he's black and gay. Okay. It has nothing to do.

Krystal Ball (45:35)

There is no doubt that that is part of why he is a lightning rod. No, because he's a lightning rod, is a liberal. I don't think that that is deniable. But in any case, that's the reason that they have Made the face. He wasn't even the only journalist there, by the way. So for Don Lemon, for them to even float, charging him with the face act with this KKK insane. And like on principle, as journalists, we should be vehemently opposed to that because genuinely, you may not. I know you don't like his views. He's a liberal, all of that.

Saagar Enjeti (46:04)

It's not because he's a liberal that I hate him. But.

Krystal Ball (46:06)

Yes, but you don't like it.

Saagar Enjeti (46:08)

No, but.

Krystal Ball (46:08)

No, but here's the difference as a journalist. The ability to go in to document this protest, to be live, to talk to the protesters, to talk to the parishioners, to talk to the pastor, to talk to everybody on the ground, it was actually valuable content and it is worthwhile while looking at it because, you know, I think he in some senses did a favor to the, to the right. Because you showing the same tactics. Yes, yes, because you do get more of a sense of. You can't just view the church members there in a caricature ish way when you actually listen to what they have to say and you're there in the room with them and experiencing that. Now, for me, in terms of the protest tactics, do I have like a moral issue with. No, I don't have a moral issue. I think it's crazy that there's an ICE field office or who is in any sort of position of moral leadership.

Saagar Enjeti (46:59)

Fine, but that's.

Krystal Ball (47:00)

This is a guy. This is a guy. Well, it is. It is my business. It is the business. I mean, I'm a taxpayer of this country. I'm paying his salary.

Saagar Enjeti (47:08)

Sure.

Krystal Ball (47:08)

They can protest, you know, in the local, in the local community. Let me just finish for a second. So do I have a moral issue with. No, I don't have a moral issue with it. Do I think. And people get very mad when you say this. Do I think it was tactically smart? No, of course not. You've given a major propaganda win to your adversaries. You protected zero immigrants. Right. The work. You're undermining the good work of the will stancils of the world who are out in the streets tracking ICE agents, blowing whistles and recording. I mean, and Trump posted actually yesterday, before he started posting, like his private text with Emmanuel Macron or whatever, he posted that there was, quote, too much focus on ICE agents and not enough on the fraud. Why? Because he sees that these videos that everybody's seeing of pulling some elderly American citizen out in practically his underwear in the snow, tear gassing a six month old Baby shooting. Now a Venezuelan national on top of the killing of Renee Goode, he's seeing that this is not going well for him in the public opinion. Those tactics are working. And instead today of being able to talk about those things and those abuses, we're having to have a debate about interrupting church services in this way that I think for a lot of Americans is going to look over the top.

Saagar Enjeti (48:18)

And very uncomfortable because it is over the top and it is ridiculous. People violate the social contract at the most basic level.

Krystal Ball (48:24)

Can I ask you one thing, though, because do you also. I think you use the term egregious. Is that fair?

Saagar Enjeti (48:31)

Yeah.

Krystal Ball (48:31)

Do you also think it's egregious that ICE has interrupted church services to arrest, make arrests of undocumented immigrants?

Saagar Enjeti (48:38)

But see, no, this is kind of. My point is that it is a race to the bottom. And if we want to have some sort of norms whenever we're like. And by the way, even it's a bit difficult.

Krystal Ball (48:46)

But do you.

Saagar Enjeti (48:47)

Because it is a bit difficult when you have churches who basically declare themselves as a place where the law itself, immigration law, law does not be allowed to enforce. Like, that would be like saying that you can commit any crime inside of a church. And as long as you do that, you're gonna be immune from federal or state prosecution. So, you know, I do think it is fundamentally different. And then second, you know, on this.

Krystal Ball (49:07)

Journalistic, in a sense, I mean, I agree with you that it's fundamentally different because the harm of coming in and like, arrest, like, those people that were at the church, I think they were upset and they were angry. They're fine, right? To come in and interrupt service and to make arrest in front of everybody and with children and families there, like, that is deeply.

Saagar Enjeti (49:27)

So you could just never arrest. If a murderer was hiding inside of a church, could you go and you could casting about.

Krystal Ball (49:32)

We're not talking about murders.

Saagar Enjeti (49:33)

Look, a violation of law. Violation of the law.

Krystal Ball (49:35)

We're talking about. There is a civil offense in terms of not all the time.

Saagar Enjeti (49:39)

We've had multiple illegals who lived in churches to escape prosecution.

Krystal Ball (49:42)

Okay, well, so then it's clear, then you find it egregious when people protest in a church, but you do not find it egregious when ICE raids church, kitted out and all their military and pulls people out.

Saagar Enjeti (49:55)

I would not do it for somebody. Personally. I can only speak for myself. If it was just purely like, you know, like women, children, people who have committed no crime. Yeah, I would say don't do it. I think that you shouldn't, you should be able to do it a different way. What I have seen though is there have been extremely high profile illegal activists who are actually have committed felonies who go and hide in churches at the direction often of some of the shows. Right now they're used that policy against them.

Krystal Ball (50:18)

Let's use the specific of what we've seen unfold. There's a lawsuit right now against the federal government alleging violations of people's constitutional right to worship and disrupting, you know, their religious practices that were brought by a variety of religious organizations. I know the Quakers are involved, there's a number of other religious groups that are involved as well. And what they allege is not only that these raids have occurred, you know, during services on church property itself, et cetera, but it creates a climate where not only undocumented immigrants, but many other church members are fearful of even going to church. So you are, you know, so if you're upset about this incursion in terms of, you know, protest activity where I think you're wrong about the Face act being applicable here, but you know, I'm not illegal.

Saagar Enjeti (51:03)

Says you can't intimidate or disrupt a.

Krystal Ball (51:05)

No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't say disrupt. You can find the text, you can find. It's about threats, intimidation. But it also specifically says carves out peaceful First Amendment protest.

Saagar Enjeti (51:17)

You got kids screaming, you're following people.

Krystal Ball (51:18)

To their cars, Facebook and Facebook. It is 100% peaceful. But in any case, putting that aside, right, I think if you are upset about people going into a church to protest peacefully during a church service, I would say that to be morally consistent, you should be even more upset about the violation by federal agents coming in during some service to arrest people. And so that's why, you know, I mean, the right's upset about this. Again, I think the tactic was not smart. I think it caused, you know, gave the right something that obviously they see as a propaganda win. I don't think it was the right way to go about things. But I also can't take seriously the rights like, my God, the sanctity of religion, blah, blah, blah, because these are also in some cases the same people. I think Tommy Tuberville like yesterday said that all Muslims are terrible and the enemies within the case, like they have no respect for any sort sort of like blanket religious tradition. It's only when it comes to, you know, something they don't like from the left. And specifically with regard to.

Saagar Enjeti (52:19)

Yeah, but okay, you can say the other side is inconsistent, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't condemn it. And here we have. The law specifically says injure, intimidate, or interfere with religious worship. There's no. It's like open and shut for every single one of these pro. You don't think that they injure, intimidate or interfere.

Krystal Ball (52:33)

They did not intimidate or interfere. And again, there.

Saagar Enjeti (52:35)

I'm sorry, Chris, that is predicament.

Krystal Ball (52:37)

Specific card for again, peaceful First Amendment protest activity.

Saagar Enjeti (52:42)

I don't think.

Krystal Ball (52:42)

Now do I think, you know, maybe like a trespassing charge potentially. But the person that they focused in on here is specifically Don Lemon. And that to me, I think should be. Again, as a journalist, I think you should find very troubling.

Saagar Enjeti (52:59)

So here's my transgressive take. I would agree with you if we had not already had multiple journalists who were prosecuted on the day of January 6th. You had at least three streamers that I know of. Isabella DeLuca, baked Alaska and Owen Schroyer, who were all prosecuted by the doj. And some of them actually spent time in prison even though they were streaming what was going on under the same thing. You could make that argument is that they were interviewing people. But.

Krystal Ball (53:24)

So do you support that?

Saagar Enjeti (53:25)

No, I don't.

Krystal Ball (53:26)

Then you should be consistent.

Saagar Enjeti (53:27)

And that's why I was saying that's my transgressive take is while I despise. Don't. Lemon. I think we should set a standard, actually, and this is part of my frustration is we're all focusing on Don. No, it's about the story is the protesters and Keith Ellison and Governor Walsh and Jacob Frey and the entire like Lib industrial complex, which has zero to say about it. Pramila Jayapal even did the meme where she said it was mostly peaceful whenever she wasn't. That's why I'm like.

Krystal Ball (53:55)

But that's. Look, that's true.

Saagar Enjeti (53:57)

Look, if a Nick Shirley.

Krystal Ball (53:59)

Let's put Governor Walz's. Well, Nick Shirley did go and demand a bunch of kids and no one's arresting him.

Saagar Enjeti (54:06)

If a Somali fraudster was a leader of a mosque and it was Nick Shirley and people went in, these people would be screaming to high heaven. You think they'd be talking about mostly peaceful? Not for a second.

Krystal Ball (54:18)

And you'd be defending him.

Saagar Enjeti (54:20)

No, I actually would not be defending him because I think this is crazy behavior. I'm even said that Nick Shirley literally did a piss poor job and is a retard who doesn't know what the word benevolent means. So I'M not somebody who's sitting here and defeated defending all of these types of tactics. And I defended all the January 6th streamers. I don't think Don Lemon should be charged, which is why I'm so frustrated that Don Lemon somehow, by the way, we can get to his little clip about claiming white supremacy and denigrating people. Again, the enduring image of that protest is an Asian family who are trying to protect their child from these freaks who are screaming in their face. But this is the issue is that blm and people always are like, why does he talk about his so much? This is the beating heart of liberal activism. The right to disrupt, the right to be antisocial.

Krystal Ball (55:03)

Yes, that is protest.

Saagar Enjeti (55:04)

Yes.

Krystal Ball (55:04)

No, that is protest.

Saagar Enjeti (55:05)

But to what is that? They believe again, that their moral right, this was not. Gives them the right to destroy. Disrupt.

Krystal Ball (55:12)

Can you acknowledge, though, riot. Can you acknowledge, though, that it is some crazy business to have a guy who is the field officer, like the head of the agency, the regional agency of ice, to be in a position of moral authority like that, like that is.

Saagar Enjeti (55:26)

That is still up to me to defend. That's up to the church. If they're okay with it, then fine, whatever. There are crazy black pastors around who literally believe in, like, straight black nationalism. Do I think that's consistent with American values?

Krystal Ball (55:39)

No lawsuits about all of the aggressive and illegal tactics here. And I think the reason.

Saagar Enjeti (55:44)

And he wasn't even there.

Krystal Ball (55:45)

And I think the reason why people, you know, oftentimes comment on how much you bring up Black Lives Matter and like, the. The level of energy that you bring to this, which is some private individuals who did a protest that you don't like. But then, to me, the much more important and consequential part of this story is those are. Those are like relatively powerless individuals. Right? It's not true. Of course it is.

Saagar Enjeti (56:12)

It's not true. Of course it is.

Krystal Ball (56:13)

You're looking at it as a vacuum structure. Can I finish? Who did a thing that you just. Okay. I think that that is so much less consequential than the fact that you have the federal government with all of its powers, who are aggressively and illegally using tactics in a widespread manner that amounts to a terror campaign in these communities. And with this story specifically, I find the most important, most troubling thing not to be some tactics that I don't think are effective, but to be the fact that you immediately reach for. Let me criminalize this journalism. That's the part that has far more far reaching consequences than some protesters did. A Thing that you found to be distasteful?

Saagar Enjeti (57:03)

Well, I would give you the same thing is I find many of the tactic, to the extent that I have problems with ice, it is violation of US due process, violation of US rights. Fundamentally though, like you, I see support deporting people who are here illegally. So yes, my tactical objection is gonna be on that. But fundamentally, I think that people who are illegally should leave. You don't agree with that, that's fine. But this gets to my point about the moral equivalence is they are so certain in their moral righteousness that they can walk into and disrupt every facet of our lives. They can burn our cities to the ground. They can turn every major blue city into a literal shithole for two to three years, spike the murder rate, take over federal and education, educational institutions. That's why you're saying powerless. Completely not true.

Krystal Ball (57:45)

But is that happening anymore, US Elite?

Saagar Enjeti (57:47)

No, but it did happen. And that's why people like us bring it up. Because when they were in power, and then Keith Ellison, who is in power is defending this, we see with our own eyes very clearly. Oh, right. So when you people are in power, they're gonna allow this. They're gonna use the same selective political prosecution. Nobody gave two shits about journalism. When all of these two, when these three, I think might have even been five streamers who were all charged under January 6, they held it up. They said they're not legitimate journalists. Now when Don Lemon is here, cuz now he apparently cuz he's black and gay, then, oh, all of a sudden we've rediscovered the first amendment. There is zero consistency like there is.

Krystal Ball (58:24)

I think there is zero consistency in saying it is fine for ICE agents to go in and raid a church. And you haven't said anything about that up until I asked you about it. And to be so incredibly upset, upset about one church service getting interrupted by a handful of protesters. Because fundamentally I think that is wildly.

Saagar Enjeti (58:42)

Because what you're trying to defend is the principle that illegals who are tens of millions here present can go and find safe sanctuary in a church and anywhere.

Krystal Ball (58:50)

What I'm trying to decide, I don't.

Saagar Enjeti (58:51)

Believe criminals believe have the right to sanctuary anywhere.

Krystal Ball (58:54)

ICE agents should not be brought in to American cities by the thousands to terrorize entire communities, which is what is being done here and is not about. This is not even about immigration.

Saagar Enjeti (59:05)

Well, I know that that's a convenient.

Krystal Ball (59:07)

Topic, but I don't think it's true. Then why are they in Minneapolis? Tell me, tell me, why did they.

Saagar Enjeti (59:11)

Choose Minneapolis agents are in Minneapolis because the Nick Shirley video and because that's how this administration operates.

Krystal Ball (59:15)

I don't think it's nothing to do with immigration. Well, there are several thousands illegal immigrants who are present. Number of Somali immigrants are in fact, it's not just American citizens. Yeah, but that's why they're there. I mean, let's just open our eyes to what is really going on here. It has to do with the fact that they hate some. They hate anyone who is not white and Christian. They are after anyone who has opposed to Trump. They hate walls. They now hate Jacob Fry because she opposed him as well. But I mean, if you look at what these people are actually doing, it's incredibly weak. Like Frye is out there basically saying there's nothing really we can do about ICE agents who are abusing people in the streets, immigrants and Americans alike.

Saagar Enjeti (59:58)

Well, what I think you're ignoring.

Krystal Ball (59:59)

I am much more. Yes, I am much more upset. Upset about that. Which has the backing of the largest law enforcement budget in history and is backed by the entire federal government and yes, my taxpayer dollars than one church protest that I think was probably ill advised.

Saagar Enjeti (60:18)

That's what I'm saying. You're looking at as an ill advised church protest and not a sustained campaign since 2014 which has normalized this behavior across the nation and which again literally burned almost America.

Krystal Ball (60:30)

Tell me about the tactics that are being used right now.

Saagar Enjeti (60:33)

Y criticize all those tactics here consistently.

Krystal Ball (60:35)

No, no, no. I'm saying protesters, the protest. Tell me about those tactics. Because it has been overwhelmingly what people have been doing is documenting what ICE's.

Saagar Enjeti (60:46)

Uses and it's very effective. They have tried. Well, documenting is a very, very small cry from the vast majority of them actually are trying to disrupt. And you know, that's a whole other type of conversation where again, we've normalized it so that ordinary Americans just think that they're like Martin Luther King Jr. Reincarnated, incarnate, going and putting their cars, let's say often in front of ICE agents whenever they're trying to conduct a raid. I won't even defend some of the tactics of the raid. I think it's chaotic and again, like you, I tactically think it's a bad idea. But fundamentally, like you do agree with these protesters. I think illegals should be deported. I think they should leave and you don't. And that's the fundamental difference.

Krystal Ball (61:24)

Can you not see the. Can you not see. And that's not even true what you just said, but can you not see See the vast disparity between interrupting a church service and shooting a woman dead three times in the face and facing zero accountability. And one being a group of powerless private citizens and the other being the full force of the United States federal government and the largest law enforcement budget in history, larger than all but 13 countries, countries, militaries, and the vice president of the United States saying they have, quote, absolute immunity. Like, which one is. Which one is more of a danger, more of a threat, more of something to have said.

Saagar Enjeti (62:08)

It's a narrow view of it, considering the fact that not that long ago, they actually did have the full power of the government. Nobody actually sustained real charges. No, but they did. And that's why it's.

Krystal Ball (62:17)

They don't now.

Saagar Enjeti (62:18)

Yes, because much of the tactics of the way that they're behaving, and I will even freely admit much of the way of the tactics that the right and ICE and all of them are employing, make it so that very likely these freaks are all gonna be back into power. But, you know, if we're trying to talk here about the way that this all arise and the way that liberal protest norms have evolved now to this point and where the entire Democratic liberal industrial complex will defend it and. Or stay silent or criticize it only as tactical, you can then realize why most people who may find the ICE thing distasteful are gonna be like, yeah, well, you know, look at what we've got facing us whenever the other side is in power. And that's exactly what happened with Keith Ellison.

Krystal Ball (62:57)

But Sagar, we can always, like, go back to. It's this person's. It's that person's fault. It's this backlash. It's that backlash. Because you love to start with the liberal. The Black Lives Matter liberal protest tactics that, yes, at times, you know, the fringe of that was very violent. It was not anything and not anything that should be condoned and was incredibly counterproductive in terms of the goals of that movement. But you never look to what precipitates that. Which is decades, I mean, you know, decades of systematic racism, which is police killings of unarmed black men. So how is there no accountability for that? That leads to an extreme reaction.

Saagar Enjeti (63:39)

We want to relitigate it. It was a completely fake crisis. People can go check if they want to, the number of unarmed, unarmed black people who were killed by. In the year 2000.

Krystal Ball (63:48)

I know you're not genuinely.

Saagar Enjeti (63:49)

It's not even more than.

Krystal Ball (63:50)

You are not genuinely asserting that there is no racism in this country.

Saagar Enjeti (63:54)

No, I'm not.

Krystal Ball (63:55)

And that there hasn't been systematic race, not just from Republicans, but from both parties right in power that have criminalized, that have made it so that you have, you know, a mass incarcerated population that has backed redlining. I mean, we can go through the history. So if you. So it's not accurate to say that that protest movement was based on nothing and came out of nowhere because.

Saagar Enjeti (64:18)

Well, it was based on fake statistics and fake idea. That is just empirical.

Krystal Ball (64:22)

That's not true.

Saagar Enjeti (64:23)

No, it is true.

Krystal Ball (64:23)

There is no ability to create that kind of a mass movement out of nothing. Right. Well, you have to acknowledge that there has to have been something.

Saagar Enjeti (64:33)

Yes, I think there was less psychosis. I mean, there's a big difference.

Krystal Ball (64:38)

Just start with the things that liberals do that you don't like. And you love to act like that is. And you love to act like that is the biggest problem. So, for example, again, you have. So you're so exercised about this incursion in the church. You have nothing to say about the way that systematically across the country religious worship spaces have been violated and made unsafe by the attacks from the sputter.

Saagar Enjeti (65:03)

I think that, I think that I've explained like quite clearly that there is a difference. And because you don't have to is.

Krystal Ball (65:08)

That one is way worse. And it's ICE agents coming in and.

Saagar Enjeti (65:11)

Around thinking you fundamentally think that illegals just have a right to sanctuary church. I don't. I don't think criminals who are here illegally have a right to sanctuary anywhere. The only sanctuary they have is in the home where they are able.

Krystal Ball (65:21)

Were past presidents able to deport undocumented immigrants?

Saagar Enjeti (65:25)

I'm glad that you talked about this.

Krystal Ball (65:26)

Were they.

Saagar Enjeti (65:26)

There's this new fake statistic going around about how Obama was able to deport 3 million people. What he did is he reclassified turning people away at the border. Internal enforcement was at all time low. All they did was reclassify, just like they did with mass shootings. Here is the basis.

Krystal Ball (65:42)

Were previous presidents able to deport undocumented immigrants?

Saagar Enjeti (65:45)

Were they able to deport illegals at an extremely low rate and at a net rate in which it resulted in the last undocumented? I genuinely think 10 to 15 million.

Krystal Ball (65:54)

People here not violating church services was the key reason.

Saagar Enjeti (65:59)

No, I don't.

Krystal Ball (66:00)

Yeah, of course. I mean, because it's ridiculous. And they're doing the same thing at schools. Okay, so this, this is something that is genuinely different. Under the Trump administration, they rescinded the guidance that previously said schools and houses of worship are off limits. And that was Fine with you? You had nothing to say about that? I don't think so. I don't. So I don't take seriously you're now deep concern about the sanctity of the church services. Oh my God, the people are so traumatized.

Saagar Enjeti (66:28)

As people know, I'm an atheist. I don't particularly care that much about sanctity of churches. I care about liberal protest norms because I can see and I lived through literal mass psychosis where people were storming buildings, restaurants, streets everywhere, rioting, looting, destroying property, exploding our murder rate, destroying the city that I literally lived in to the point where we still have the same problems that from what, five, six years ago now at that time. Like, that's why you're saying like it was. It's an old thing. It's not like we live with the enduring constant consequences of that. In fact, literally across the nation, multiple cities and places and areas which I love have been ruined completely, largely because of BLM and the so called criminal justice movement that followed and exploded through all of the people who are actually in power, people like Keith Ellison who have nothing to say whenever a literal church is violated here because to them that is permissible. Whereas any sort of action to arrest people here illegally, legally, is what really gets them all spun up about it. They have the same selective justice. They are in no way.

Krystal Ball (67:29)

That's also not true because Sager, before this, before this, multiple thousand federal agents storming the streets of Minneapolis, the whole region, Twin Cities, before that, ICE was doing enforcement. There was immigration enforcement in Minnesota.

Saagar Enjeti (67:46)

No, that's not true. That is 100% true.

Krystal Ball (67:48)

Of course it's true.

Saagar Enjeti (67:49)

This is the process problem. Sanctuary cities make it so that the jails do not turn over or report.

Krystal Ball (67:55)

That is not.

Saagar Enjeti (67:55)

No, it is.

Krystal Ball (67:56)

That is not true.

Saagar Enjeti (67:57)

They do not walk around with federal.

Krystal Ball (67:59)

Detention when it comes to violent criminals. Yes, of course there has been cooperation between Minneapolis and the state of Minnesota. Have there been ICE enforcement actions in Minneapolis prior to the surge?

Saagar Enjeti (68:12)

Is that previous regime where you only believe that people who have committed violence.

Krystal Ball (68:17)

Under this Trump administration, there have been ongoing ICE actions in and around Minneapolis?

Saagar Enjeti (68:24)

Yes.

Krystal Ball (68:24)

Did they stoke this back? No. So what does that tell you? No, people do not object to any undocumented immigrant. There may be some people like that, but by and large, to any undocumented immigrants getting deported. No, what they object to is what they are seeing right now in the streets of Minneapolis. And they should object to that. They should be horrified by, by that. I'm horrified by that. I'm horrified by Giving the absolute immunity to a bunch of masked thugs who have said to people, now they have threatened them, they've said, didn't you learn the lesson from that lesbian bitch? They are using the murder of Renee Goode as their ability to threaten people with the same type of actions. We have already seen now multiple shootings. We've seen also immigrants dying routinely now when they're in detention. So yes, I think people are right to be upset about that. That doesn't mean that they object to any immigrant ever being deported. It means they object to what is happening right now. And they should. And so I am going, like, I think that is a far more consequential thing to happen in this country right now, backed by our tax dollars with this private army for Trump and for Stephen Miller, that is completely rogue and completely unaccountable to the law. I think that is a vastly, vastly more important issue than some protesters who, you know, I think you could probably listen. I think when you protest, if you violate the law, like there's an expectation that you may risk arrest. Like could they get trespassing charges potentially? You know, will the government go after them for the face act that can be litigated in court? I don't think that they'll succeed. Well, first of all, but sure, they took on that risk.

Saagar Enjeti (70:05)

That's fine is usually not, is met with a fine. So just to be clear, like I'm not saying all these people should be thrown in prison for years at all. And that's why again, I would ignore it. But you know, to your point there, I do think it is a bit of a canard whenever people are saying they don't like even when you were talking about violent protesters, people like me believe, I mean Joe Biden, the so called moderate believe that people who are here illegally, who are caught drunk driving should not be deported. That is insane. Insane. You are putting people at risk and you shouldn't be deported. The liberal line appears now to be that unless you're a violent rapist or murderer that you get to stay here even though you crossed into our country illegally and even though you're probably going to be a massive net drain on our social safety net and we should just grant you all citizenship. Like this is, this is what, like it is a, it is genuine sleight of hand. There are tens of millions, somewhere between 20 and 30 people, 20, 30 million people who are present in this country illegally. And I think people should just be honest liberals and say, yes, we want to vast, we want to legalize the absolute vast majority of them, regardless of the consequences. And we want people like you talk about tax dollars. You want my tax dollars to pay.

Krystal Ball (71:09)

For all of their health care and.

Saagar Enjeti (71:10)

For people who don't speak any English.

Krystal Ball (71:12)

Who have no education. The majority of them are net contributors.

Saagar Enjeti (71:14)

To this society is a complete canard. And even if you had a small percentage, which are going to be massive.

Krystal Ball (71:20)

It would be a huge strain. I think people should say that because that is actually the place where the American people are. That is where the majority position is.

Saagar Enjeti (71:27)

We'll see.

Krystal Ball (71:28)

Whenever they actually been here, no, even.

Saagar Enjeti (71:29)

As we all saw, even at the.

Krystal Ball (71:31)

Pro mas, even at the height of the anti immigrant backlash, even at the height of that, you still had much more complex views on immigration than has been portrayed. So, yes, the American people do not the view that you're articulating as being just like some stupid liberal position, that is the position of the American people.

Saagar Enjeti (71:48)

That we should legalize everyone and give them all freedom.

Krystal Ball (71:52)

That if you have been here and you've abided by the law and you've paid your taxes, that there should be some path to citizenship. They don't agree with what is going on. They don't agree certainly with the, you know, insane tactics of this private, these private thugs, which again, immigration is the pretext here. But this really is about a police state, it is about a mass crackdown. It is about threatening retribution against the opposition. Making it so that, you know, things are, you know, basic pro Trump protest is criminalized.

Saagar Enjeti (72:28)

I think multiple things can be true.

Krystal Ball (72:30)

The administration believes that if you protest against them, you are a domestic terrorist. That is their stated definition. And again, I think that is like, that's the thing that we should really be focused on right now because these are the people that are in power right now. This is what they're doing right now. And most of America is horrified by it, frankly.

Saagar Enjeti (72:50)

Look, I think they should be horrified. I objected immediately to labeling Renee Goode a terrorist. But one of the. Yesterday I was feeling very left wing. Today I feel very right wing. I'm like, oh, right, I forgot what exactly it is like or would be like to live back under the thumb of these people. And I don't think that we should really forget what you're talking about. Normalization. This was normalized over literally a decade. It has been accepted. There is an extreme position in the way that you look at mass deportation. I'm sorry, legalizing people, giving them free health, health care. No, it's not happening.

Krystal Ball (73:23)

If I get to free health care. In this country. I wish that we all had free health care.

Saagar Enjeti (73:27)

Your position is free health care for everyone and legal excellence.

Krystal Ball (73:29)

Correct. But that is not the reality in which we live currently.

Saagar Enjeti (73:32)

Free health care for illegals and for people who are here illegally. That is not something I will ever support. I don't think anybody should support that empirically. And this is where I do think it is important to also note that because of the position of the moral righteousness which is the heart of all liberal activism, where they genuinely cannot see, like I don't think anybody can see in the way that you're framing it, your look, ICE purely as some sort of intimidation factor. And the fact is immigration is a part of that now. Can it be done without many of the bad things that they've done? And that's why, you know, often the criticism is like, you only object to the tactics. It's like, yeah, because I agree with the idea they should get deported. I think it's basically your view here on the protests, yes, we can agree on enforcement. I would be much happier with 100% remittance tax and mandatory e verify and taking a bunch of these employers who vastly profit off of all of this and throw them in prison and then basically encourage everybody to go back. More humane way to do it. Less headlines. Yeah, but to be honest, and let's be clear here, libs would be screeching and crying about that too. They would like the idea that they only object to ICE tactics is bullshit.

Krystal Ball (74:40)

They want them to stay here legally, hypothetical. We have to see the reality.

Saagar Enjeti (74:44)

They criticize Obama, Biden, anybody who even remotely sent people back. They were mad about it. They believe that they should stay and we should do nothing. They don't care about the taxes.

Krystal Ball (74:53)

They're allowed to have that view. Yes, of course they're allowed to have that view. You can believe anything. Here's the thing is, you know, you're very upset about their moral righteousness. Like they are allowed to have a perspective. And I do think, I do think that their perspective is morally righteous because it is a bad. So I don't equate, I don't think the two things are equivalent. I don't think that the position of the right and the position of the left are more because you're a left wing person. But I'm saying there is right and wrong. It is wrong watching that man, elderly man, drug out on the street in the cold, humiliated in his shorts only and turns out he's an American citizen, hours later they bring him back, right? Watching that 17 year old Target who they beat the shit out of him and then drop him off, you know, miles away and he's crying and bloodied watching a six month old baby get tear gassed. And then the way they lie about all of it. This Venezuelan man who got shot in the leg completely lied about all of that. And of course, Renee Goode, like, yes, I, yes, I feel very much that is on the correct, morally righteous side to say those things are wrong.

Saagar Enjeti (76:09)

I think all of those are wrong.

Krystal Ball (76:09)

People who are protesting those things are genuinely courageous and noble and that more people should aspire to hold values and actually fight for them. Which is why even with these protesters, the only reason I'll criticize the tactics, I think the tactics were foolish, but I think it was fricking ballsy. I admire the fact that they have the balls to do something I'm not doing right right now and go out there in the streets and try to make a difference. Do I think that this was the wrong approach in terms of the. Yes, I do. I don't think it was beneficial. Do you admire the hell on that? Yeah, I do. I actually do. Because they are putting their actions where their mouth is. They're not just complaining about it on Twitter or posting. They're going out and they are trying to do something about a moral wrong that they see. And I think it is incredibly no noble thing to do to have a value and to be willing to actually go out and fight for it.

Saagar Enjeti (77:03)

Fine, then every right winger at January 6th was courageous and noble under your definition because only because you agree. You're basically saying it's okay because my.

Krystal Ball (77:11)

Views are actually moral and they're.

Saagar Enjeti (77:15)

Morality is defined only in your own mind.

Krystal Ball (77:17)

Hold on. But you don't even agree with the thing they were doing. Like the election was not rigged and stolen, so they were like breaking the law and beating up cops. And it was vastly more violent. Violent than anything that we have seen in terms of these protests.

Saagar Enjeti (77:33)

I'm saying that moral equivalence is easy.

Krystal Ball (77:35)

No, no, no, no. I'm saying there is no moral equivalence between those two things.

Saagar Enjeti (77:39)

Only in yours.

Krystal Ball (77:40)

No, no, no.

Saagar Enjeti (77:40)

For many people, the morality of tens of millions of people here illegally.

Krystal Ball (77:44)

You're like a very relativist thing.

Saagar Enjeti (77:46)

Yes. Because we don't, we haven't live in a very heterogeneous country.

Krystal Ball (77:49)

No, you're doing a moral relativist position where there can be no right or wrong. It's all just in the eye of the beholder, which is actually a very left wing thing. To do and which I don't agree with. I think there is right and wrong. I think there is good and bad. I think there is good and evil. And so yes, what they did on January 6th was stupid and it was for a bad and wrong cause. What these protesters are doing in general in Minneapolis is for a righteous cause. And I think that that is. No, because there is such a thing as good and bad.

Saagar Enjeti (78:21)

Yeah, everybody who marched against civil rights, who were in the white crowds throwing stuff at black people thought that they were in the right and they were.

Krystal Ball (78:27)

Uplift and they were wrong. That's the point. Yeah, I know they were wrong. That's my point is that the January 6ers but in their mind they were morally righteous were incorrect. Yes, but by normal people are correct. And you agree with me on that. Like you also object to these ICE tactics and you also don't think that the election was stolen and that was stupid. So clearly there is some ability to see objectively that some things causes are worthy and noble and some causes are bad and wrong. That's all I'm saying.

Saagar Enjeti (78:53)

Okay, fine.

Krystal Ball (78:54)

Because you're doing a home moral relative. Well, in their mind they think but they're wrong and these people are not.

Saagar Enjeti (78:58)

Yeah, but if I went Back to the 1950s, a vast portion of the public would have agreed with the people who were storming and there would have been, let's say, a debate here on the.

Krystal Ball (79:06)

But they were wrong.

Saagar Enjeti (79:06)

And many people. Okay, we can say that in retrospect. But the point is, is what matters actually in the moment. And what matters in the moment, as you just laid out, is while you think it's noble and courageous, I think that anybody who wants to normalize these types of things is despicable in the same way. I mean I feel like I'm living in crazy land sometimes. Cuz it's like we haven't sat here and criticized ice. We haven't sat here and said that the tactics are bad. As if we haven't sat here and said yes, they've often violated. All of that is readily admittable. However, however again that does not give you license to be rampaging through private institutions and to go and intimidate people who you disagree with, which is the fundamental belief of left wing activism in and of itself. They do not actually believe believe that my position or the position of millions of people for many who voted in 2024 that mass deportation and illegal should go back which again won the popular vote. Let me remind everyone that is not a legitimate position and that any of those people should be driven from public life and have no right and. Or to speak. That is probably the mainstream view of liberal activism and let's say DSA or any of these types of people. That is objectionable because it is pretty clear to me that those people are not really consistent with any sort of democratic values. And for all the left talk of 1930s Germany, what they forget is that these were the same tactics used by the communists. This is actually the exact same, like, playbook of street gangs and all of that that was playing out of anarchism at the time didn't work out so well for all of you. Or the Spanish Civil War and the same murder of a lot of people who were in religious institutions, which is eventually what led to the rise of Spanish civilization fascism. Because it's not just about tactics. It is also about the same level of moralism of protest behavior. And I view that fundamentally as a danger. You don't, because you think it's courageous. It is a massive danger to living in a heterogeneous society. And the same way that you see illiberalism on the right, I can point to this exactly. And the handling and the basically effective endorsement of this by the Democratic industrial complex and to say, wow, illiberalism still alive and well, whenever it comes to the institutionalized left, people like me should.

Krystal Ball (81:12)

Be afraid of it. We can wrap this up, but I will just say there is really no comparison between the quote, unquote, illiberalism of the Biden administration, which I, you know.

Saagar Enjeti (81:23)

Yes.

Krystal Ball (81:24)

Condemns.

Saagar Enjeti (81:24)

You were one of the few. You were.

Krystal Ball (81:25)

That's okay.

Saagar Enjeti (81:26)

Yeah.

Krystal Ball (81:27)

And the illiberalism of the Trump administration. There is no comparison. There is no comparison. And I mean, we're about to cover some of the, like, rise of censorship and whatever. You have the. The criminalizing of pro Palestinian descent. You have the labeling of anyone who would protest them as domestic terrorists. You have the absolute immunity granted to ICE thugs to rampage in American streets.

Saagar Enjeti (81:53)

Can we. Can we just say, just because the vice President said it, doesn't make it true.

Krystal Ball (81:56)

That is definitely. No, but not to harp on this, but it does actually make it true, because that is the way that they're operating. I mean, is Jonathan Ross being investigated? Investigated?

Saagar Enjeti (82:07)

No, no. But, you know, to say absolutely would be to say that he's forever has immunity, which is, like, not true. Liberals will eventually come back into power and there's no statute of limitation on murder. I think you would also.

Krystal Ball (82:17)

Yeah, but they.

Saagar Enjeti (82:18)

But it's pretty clear when Keaton also.

Krystal Ball (82:20)

Think they're gonna pardon me.

Saagar Enjeti (82:21)

What?

Krystal Ball (82:21)

Maybe they're gonna pardon her. I mean, but is that even eligible for pardon? Yes.

Saagar Enjeti (82:26)

Well, I mean, pretty sure. I checked on this, and there was some weird case law, something about state charges. I'm not exactly sure.

Krystal Ball (82:33)

My understanding is that he could be pardoned. The state and federal thing, it's a question mark. But in any case, the view of this administration is that they have absolute immunity, and that is the way that they have. That those agents have clearly internalized based on the way they're acting and also the things that they're saying to protesters on the street. So in any case, that is nowhere. Like, they are not in the same ballpark with the illiberalism that was evidenced in the Biden administration, which was marginal compared to. To what we are seeing here in terms of the criminalization of dissent and the, you know, the crushing of the media, the crushing, like even bringing law firms to heal, universities, getting professors fired, all of that. And they genuinely, like Trump, will say it. He thinks it should be illegal to criticize him. He says that out loud. Right. So I don't see the two things as equivalent. And you can, you can rely on me that if Democrats or the left gets in power and there are abuses that are truly illiberal, that I will be critical there. But I am not gonna do it both sides, because I don't think that the two sides have been remotely equivalent. And by the way, one of them is in power right now, and one of them is.

Saagar Enjeti (83:47)

Well, one will soon be in power. And I think that many of the norms that may have kept the Biden administration or any of those people from doing what truly was in those hearts are now shattered. And next thing we know, and you know, I mean, I don't think people should. Confused. I am really not arguing with you. I don't think you're the problem. I really don't.

Krystal Ball (84:02)

Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti (84:02)

But I think the Democratic industrial complex is the problem. And Keith Ellison and all of the people who are actually going to be in power. I'm like, oh, yeah. Especially with what's been normalized now under Trump. I think a lot of people like a lot of the same tactics which were dreams of the BLM movement and all of that, and anti racism, you know, amendments. After what has now happened under the Trump administration, I think it will be a reality. And I don't doubt that you would speak on behalf of civil liberties for right wingers, but I don't think that that's necessarily a consistent view and much of the right is to blame for it as well, which is why I often call it out, especially on the censorship stuff, because I'm not dumb. The people who are lawyers, professors and governors are all watching this and saying, okay, we never did it out of the norms. Now the norm is shattered, which means it's gonna happen. And I think that America is basically going to go through some sort of like 1990s South Africa truth and reconciliation movement whenever a Democrat comes back into the White House. And yeah, I don't think it's gonna go that well. All right, long debate. I apologize to the audience. I hope it was somewhat elucidating. Is that the right word? Let's get to the next.

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