12/10/24: CEO Shooter Caught w/Manifesto, Pete Hegseth SecDef Debate, Daniel Penny Found Not Guilty

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar | Episode Released December 10, 2024

Hosts: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Producer: iHeartPodcasts
Podcast Description: Breaking Points is a fearless anti-establishment multi-week YouTube and podcast series that holds the powerful accountable, hosted by Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti.

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1. Arrest of Luigi Mangione: A High-Profile Case

Timestamps: [02:23] - [27:55]

In this episode, Krystal and Saagar delve into the arrest of Luigi Mangione, a 26-year-old man from Maryland/Hawaii, charged with the targeted murder of Brian Thompson, CEO of United Healthcare, in midtown Manhattan.

• Background:
  Mangione is described as the valedictorian of a prestigious Baltimore prep school with degrees from the University of Pennsylvania. He hailed from a wealthy family with significant influence in Maryland, including relatives who are state legislators.

• Incident Details:
  Mangione was apprehended at a McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania, after an employee recognized him from police-issued wanted photos. Upon his arrest, authorities found multiple false IDs, a U.S. passport, significant amounts of cash (both foreign and U.S.), and an untraceable "ghost gun" — a 3D-printed firearm popular in certain online right-wing circles.

• Motivation and Online Footprint:
  The duo explores Mangione's extensive online presence, highlighting a manifesto that aligns with anti-capitalist and anarcho-right sentiments. Mangione's Goodreads profile reveals his interest in chronic pain management and controversial political literature, including works by Ted Kaczynski (the Unabomber).
  Quote:
  Daniel Penny: "It appears the United States CEO healthcare CEO killing suspect spent some time in Japan and had thoughts about how to 'return society'." [16:07]

• Psychological Factors:
  Mangione reportedly suffered from severe back pain, undergoing back surgery, which may have contributed to his mental state leading up to the crime. Friends and family noted a significant behavioral shift following his surgery, suggesting a potential psychotic break exacerbated by chronic pain and possibly substance abuse.

• Apprehension Analysis:
  The hosts critique the NYPD’s inability to locate Mangione without a civilian tip-off, despite advanced surveillance technologies. They highlight the irony that despite Mangione's high intelligence and resourcefulness, he was ultimately caught due to everyday vigilance by a McDonald's employee.

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2. Pete Hegseth's Nomination for Secretary of Defense

Timestamps: [32:34] - [48:18]

Krystal and Saagar provide an in-depth analysis of Pete Hegseth's nomination and the surrounding political dynamics.

• Confirmation Process:
  Hegseth, a controversial figure with past allegations related to his personal life, initially faced significant opposition during his confirmation process. However, a pivotal meeting with Senator Joni Ernst has shifted the landscape, increasing his chances of confirmation.

• Senator Joni Ernst's Support:
  Ernst, a military veteran and sexual assault survivor, expressed appreciation for Hegseth's commitment to auditing the Pentagon and addressing sexual assault within the military.
  Quote:
  Krystal Ball: "Pete committed to completing a full audit of the Pentagon, selecting a senior official who will uphold the roles and values of our servicemen and women." [34:10]

• Political Maneuvering:
  The hosts discuss the behind-the-scenes efforts to secure Ernst's support, including potential political repercussions if she opposed Hegseth. They speculate on the influence of right-wing campaigns aimed at coercing her support to prevent primary challenges.

• Ideological Stance:
  Despite accusations of shifting ideologies, Ball and Enjeti argue that Hegseth remains a staunch hawk. They debate whether his recent statements reflect genuine ideological evolution or opportunistic alignment with prevailing political winds. Quote:
  Saagar Enjeti: "He is very hawkish. There’s no instinct towards isolationism that exists or has ever been demonstrated to exist within him." [45:53]

• Future Implications:
  Should Hegseth be confirmed, the hosts predict significant changes within the Department of Defense, including potential purges of existing military bureaucracy and shifts in military policy focus. They express cautious optimism but maintain skepticism about his long-term commitments to certain positions.

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3. Daniel Penny Found Not Guilty in Jordan Neely Case

Timestamps: [56:07] - [70:18]

A significant portion of the episode addresses the acquittal of Daniel Penny, a Marine veteran, in the death of Jordan Neely on a New York City subway.

• Case Overview:
  In 2023, Penny and another passenger restrained Neely, a mentally ill and homeless man who was menacing fellow passengers. Neely died from the chokehold applied by Penny, raising questions about responsibility and intent.

• Legal Proceedings:
  The prosecution charged Penny with voluntary manslaughter and criminally negligent manslaughter. However, during the trial, the jury struggled with the higher charge, ultimately leading to a deadlock. The judge then directed the jury to drop the voluntary manslaughter charge, focusing only on criminal negligence, resulting in a not guilty verdict.

• Systemic Failures:
  Krystal and Saagar emphasize the broader systemic issues that led to this tragedy, including inadequate mental health support and failure of city authorities to manage Neely's condition effectively. They argue that Penny was placed in an impossible situation due to these systemic shortcomings.

• Public Reaction and Media Coverage:
  The hosts critique how the media has portrayed Penny as either a hero or villain, arguing that this binary oversimplifies the complex circumstances. They highlight the role of NYC’s mental health system in failing both Neely and the public.

• Quotes:
  Saagar Enjeti: "The whole situation is indicative of a massive system-wide failure." [69:03]
  Krystal Ball: "Ensure that incidents like these don’t happen by improving mental health services and public safety measures." [Not directly quoted but inferred]

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4. Romania's Presidential Election Annulled Due to TikTok Misinformation

Timestamps: [02:27] - [04:04]

Krystal and Saagar cover an international development where Romania's presidential election was annulled.

• Cause:
  The annulment resulted from widespread misinformation propagated via TikTok, alongside alleged interference from foreign actors.

• Implications:
  The hosts discuss the troubling implications for democracy and the potential spillover effects on other nations, including concerns about social media’s role in election integrity.
  Quote:
  Saagar Enjeti: "Real troubling what is unfolding there, regardless of how you feel about the candidates involved and potential implications here as well." [03:58]

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5. Monologues on Online Sports Gambling and Healthcare System Critique

Timestamps: [05:14] - [07:00]

• Saagar's Monologue on Online Sports Gambling:
  Saagar presents a critical analysis of online sports betting, emphasizing its exploitative nature towards addicts. He argues that the industry is inherently rigged against bettors, highlighting the unethical business practices that prioritize profit over consumer well-being.
  Quote:
  Krystal Ball: "It's a bullshit game. It’s completely rigged." [04:34]

• Krystal's Deep Dive into Healthcare System Exploitation:
  Krystal examines how capitalists exploit addicts within the healthcare system, particularly focusing on methadone clinics. She connects this exploitation to broader systemic issues within healthcare, arguing that profit-driven motives undermine patient care and ethical standards.

---

6. Support for Rafael Al Arir's Poetry Campaign

Timestamps: [06:50] - [07:25]

Krystal and Saagar highlight Rafael Al Arir, a Palestinian poet whose work has gained traction following his death at the hands of the IDF.

• Campaign Goals:
  Al Arir's poetry book, including his viral poem "If I Must Die," aims to raise awareness and support for Palestinian causes. The hosts encourage listeners to purchase the book to help it achieve bestseller status and amplify Palestinian voices.

• Quote:
  Krystal Ball: "This would be a fantastic way to support the Palestinian people by purchasing his book of poetry." [06:50]

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Concluding Thoughts

Throughout the episode, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti navigate complex and emotionally charged topics, from high-profile criminal cases to significant political nominations and international electoral integrity. Their discussions often highlight systemic failures, whether in mental health support, electoral processes, or defense department leadership, advocating for accountability and reform.

Final Quote:
Saagar Enjeti: "Our mental health system is really quite atrocious and rife with abuse and neglect." [70:18]

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Notable Quotes:

• Daniel Penny: "It appears the United States CEO healthcare CEO killing suspect spent some time in Japan and had thoughts about how to 'return society'." [16:07]
• Saagar Enjeti: "He is very hawkish. There’s no instinct towards isolationism that exists or has ever been demonstrated to exist within him." [45:53]
• Krystal Ball: "Ensure that incidents like these don’t happen by improving mental health services and public safety measures." [Inferred from discussion]

---

Conclusion:
This episode of Breaking Points provides a thorough exploration of current events that challenge societal structures and question the efficacy of established institutions. Krystal and Saagar offer critical perspectives aimed at holding power accountable and advocating for systemic change.

Transcript

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Crystal Ball]

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CT mobile.com hi everyone, it's Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Copy from the Today Show.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Nobody does the holidays like today. From festive performances and great gift ideas.

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To tips for the perfect holiday feast, join us every morning on NBC and make TODAY your home for the holidays.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Hey guys, Sager and Crystal here.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist and anywhere else.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad, free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

We need your help to build the future of independent News media. And we hope to see [e-mail]. good morning, everybody. Happy Tuesday. Have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Indeed we do. So they found the alleged. Ladies and gentlemen.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

They got him.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And very interesting and elaborate online history. We'll get into that and how he was located. A lot of really interesting details about him and his background. So we'll get into all of that. Also, he was found with a manifesto. We've only gotten little bits and pieces of that. But we'll tell you what we know. It's kind of basically what you would expect his motivation would be in this killing. All right. We also have some updates for you about defense secretary nominee Pete Hegseth looking more now like he may make it. He had a meeting with Joni Ernst. She seems more favorable. She was one of the previous holdouts. So we'll break that down for you as well. We also have a verdict in the Daniel Penney case. He was the man who was on a New York subway. There was a mentally ill man named Jordan Neely who was sort of menacing passengers. Puts him in a chokehold. Jordan Neely ends up dying. So we have a verdict in that case. We'll break all of that down for a very fraught issue and a lot of feelings on both sides of the equation with that one. Also a story that I've been wanting to cover because it is an important international story but also has potentially important implications for us here as well. Presidential election completely annulled in the country of Romania due to TikTok misinformation and supposed foreign actor intervening. Really troubling what is unfolding there, regardless of how you feel about the candidates involved and like I said, some potential implications here as well. So break that down for you. Sager is delivering his anti online sports gambling opus. He wanted to make sure I was very specific. Not anti gambling in general, just online sports betting. Yes, I know. A lot of thought and work went into this one.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

It's 3,000 words. I don't know how long it's gonna take to record. It could take a while. So everybody, everybody gear up. I will be posting it everywhere. I want people to spread the word. Ever since I started posting about this, I have been getting some of the most heartfelt and horrifying messages from a lot of women in particular whose husbands have been gambling away their savings. They feel like they can't say anything. So this is for the women out there. This is what I'm doing.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I will say this is an issue where I have sort of conflicting feelings and my mind is not settled or made up. So I'm looking forward to.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

I don't think a reasonable person could watch this and defend the practice, because I will go anyway. You'll watch it, but it's systemic. So we're gonna talk about the problem, we're gonna talk about the justifications, we're gonna talk about the philosophy behind why it was legalized in the first place, the law specifically. But I think the most convincing part that I hope to have is the business practices themselves and why, if they are regulated and made, they literally cannot operate. The only way that they can turn a profit is by exploiting addicts and specifically by banning people who win. So if you think it's fair, it's a bullshit game. It's completely rigged. And that's something that I really hope people will take care of.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So, interestingly enough, both of our monologues are about capitalists exploiting addicts. So I'm taking a deep dive into our healthcare system through the lens of this chain of methadone clinics and the way that they have abused their patients for profit. And what this says more broadly about our healthcare system. Obviously, massive conversation sparked by the killing of that healthcare CEO. So break that down for you as well. Before we jump into the show though, I do have an ask for you guys, for those of you who are interested. This is something that Ryan has been really championing as well. I don't know if you all remember the Palestinian poet Rafael Al Arir, who was killed by the IDF just over a year ago. One of his poems, which is titled if I Must Die, really went quite viral. A lot of people sharing it because it was basically a letter to his daughter for the event in which he was killed. And of course he was killed. I actually read it on the show. I don't know if you guys recall. In any case, his book of poetry is being re released today and there is a real grassroots push to try to get this book of poetry onto bestseller lists, including the New York Times bestseller list. I actually just got a text from Ryan this morning. He says he spoke to the publisher. I'll just read you his text. Talk to the publisher. They've already received nearly 10,000 pre orders, which is fantastic. Normally that would be enough to make the bestseller list, but not, not during Christmas, So we need a few thousand more. So if you are interested in supporting this cause and elevating the cause of the Palestinian people, this would be a fantastic way to do it by purchasing his book of poetry, including if I Must Die Again. This is Rafael Al Arir. So thank you all very much for those of you who participate.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

There you go. And thank you all. Premium Subscribers BreakingPoints.com if you want more content, we got big plans. We had a big meeting yesterday. I think people are going to be really excited. Okay, so with all of that, let's get to the news. Let's go ahead and put the video on on the screens. 26 year old Maryland and or Hawaii man Luigi Mangione was taken into custody Yesterday in Altoona, Pennsylvania after a worker at McDonald's recognized him from the wanted pictures that were put out by New York City police and by the media. And so police were called. This is the official chain of events, at least for what we know right now, to the McDonalds. They cornered Luigi Mangione. They asked him for identific. He presented to them the same identification, false identification, NJ ID that he had given to the New York City hostel that he had stayed in previously. They also searched his bag, found Multiple false identities IDs as well as a US passport, $2,000 in foreign currency, $8,000 in United States currency, and a quote unquote ghost gun. Ghost gun is one of those. It's hard to explain exactly the basic way to say it's like a 3D printed weapon which makes it more untraceable. There's been a lot of controversy around it from the ATF and others and it is very popular in kind of crypto right wing circles. I actually met the founder of Ghost, an interesting dude. My point though is that that was a signal at least a little bit for me in the beginning where I'm like this guy's online. And to say that he's online is actually a little bit of an understatement. Let's go and put his mugshot that was there up on the screen. Pennsylvania police released this mugshot of Luigi Mangioni. He has now officially been charged with murder in the city of New York as well as false identification and having false property. So he will be extradited. I'm assuming there. His entire background is kind of fascinating and obviously it will tell the story as we continue to get it. But this is the valedictorian of a very prestigious Baltimore prep school. He earned his bachelor's and master's degrees at the University of Pennsylvania. He served as head counselor at a pre college program at Stanford University. His family is actually quite wealthy and well known in the Baltimore area. Some of his relatives, cousins are even state Legislators in the state of Maryland. His family seems to be some sort of like country club tycoons who are known in the area and quite wealthy actually themselves.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And not only. So my understanding is this was reported by the New York Times as well as some online sleuths. The source of their fortune originally comes from a chain of nursing homes, which could end up being relevant given that his purported motive here was anger at the healthcare industry. So put that out there. And then with that wealth, yeah, they purchased a number of country clubs. This is a very wealthy, well known Baltimore family. He goes to this $40,000 a year prep school, goes off to Ivy League school, same one as Donald Trump. You know, lots of very highly esteemed individuals have gone there, studies computer science. You know, everyone who's in contact with him basically says this is a bright kid, you know, very popular. Like, seems like he has everything going for him. And then there seems to be a turning point in his story when he suffers a, some sort of horrific back injury.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

It seems to have plagued him for a while, but then he had back surgery. That's where he may. We don't know if he got the surgery or not. That hasn't yet been confirmed.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, some of his people who knew him, who were friends with him along the way did confirm that he had some sort of back surgery. We could put this up on the screen. This is from him, his Twitter bio and the banner that has that is at the top. So we've got a Pokemon situation. The middle screen there, that's an X ray potentially of his back that you see all these pins and hardware that would be indicative of some sort of either, you know, horrific injury or degenerative condition. You also see him showing off his well muscled physique there, hiking in some beautiful mountains, potentially in Hawaii where he lived for quite a while. But the acquaintances who've spoken to the press and friends who've spoken to the press and his social media footprint also indicate that he has this back surgery. If you look at his Goodreads list, he's looking at all of this literature about how to deal with back pain and how to rehab your back, et cetera. He sort of, he drops completely off the map in terms of his friends, family, et cetera. If you go through his social media profile, you've literally got a friend who's like, dude, you're supposed to be in my wedding and I can't get in touch with you. Like I need to know what's going on and if I can rely on you. Got these Other messages that are like, where are you? We're worried about you. Like, no one's heard from you. And so he seems to have, you know, this seems to have been, according to the people around him, what really triggered a turn for him.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, his mother reported him missing actually just last month in November.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Oh, interesting.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

And so his family didn't know where he was. They were reaching out to his high school friends, trying to figure some of this out. You know, obviously we're just trying to piece all this stuff together. We don't have 100% knowledge. The NYPD did give a press conference with some of the details. Let's take a listen to that.

[NYPD Spokesperson]

Earlier this morning in Altoona, Pennsylvania, members of the Altoona Police Department arrested Luigi Mangione, a 26 year old male, on firearms charges. At this time, he is believed to be our person of interest in the brazen targeted murder of Brian Thompson, CEO of United Healthcare, last Wednesday in midtown Manhattan. The suspect was in a McDonald's and was recognized by an employee who then called local police. Responding officers questioned the suspect, who was acting suspiciously and was carrying multiple fraudulent IDs as well as a US passport. Upon further investigation, officers recovered a firearm on his person as well as a suppressor, both consistent with the weapon used in the murder. They also recovered clothing, including a mask, consistent with those worn by our wanted individual. Also recovered was a fraudulent New Jersey ID matching the ID our suspect used to check into his New York City hostel before the shooting incident. Additionally, officers recovered a handwritten document that speaks to both his motivation and mindset.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

All right, so that's what we know so far. He did have a very prolific online presence to which we can gleam a little bit. Let's go and put a six, please, up on the screen. And this fits with the back pain. It appears that from his Goodreads profile, Goodreads is kind of like a social network for being able to rate and review books that. He had a couple of books here. He had David Goggins, Can't Hurt Me. But here's the indication. It's the book called, quote, outwitting the Back Pain Industry and Getting on the Road to Recovery, the Power of Passion and Personal Perseverance and back mechanic by Dr. Stuart McGill. All of those give us a clue. And combined with some of the testimony that he had given to many of his friends who, when he was living in Hawaii, who all report him having some horrific back problems after surfing and others where he'd be bedridden, and he was personally having a real crisis with it. Then, though, as we move on in Goodreads, you get to start a little bit of political journey. Who's this gentleman? Yes, his. His journey, shall we say. And there was some Uncle Ted, love. Let's go ahead and put this up there on the screen. Goodreads. He reviews Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber. Uncle Ted is a joke, by the way. It's an online thing where he says it gives it four stars, as if he could do better, which is hilarious. And he says when all other forms of communications fail, violence is necessary to survive. You may not like his method, but to see things from his perspective, it's not terrorism, it's war and it's revolution. If you've never read the Unabomber manifesto, it is quite something.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I believe I did a monologue here. Yeah, I think you did. I can't remember why it was relevant.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

But Tucker had talked about it. Maybe that's why. Maybe Volume one is interesting.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Volume two is when things start to.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Get a little bit.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It had a moment too, because Blake Masters was into it as well. Which the plot twist here is that based on the online footprint and we don't know what this gentleman has been up to for the past six months, his politics are much more Sagar than me, which is kind of hilarious. He's a Superman fan.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

I have a description of him. I think the best description is secular, right wing, anarcho, anti capitalist. And honestly, that is about as good as you're gonna get for this person. For example, I tweeted immediately when I reviewed his profile. Here's what I said. I said a quick perusal of the CEO killing suspect indicates someone plugged into online health tech discourse with right wing sensibilities about the collapse of religion in the United States and why immigration won't solve Japan's problems. This is gonna be an interesting one. It does appear that Mangione spent some time in Japan. Let's go put an 88 up there on the screen. This one is personally hilarious to me.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, the saga parallels were a little weird because he had this Japan visit and then he was nuclear post nuclear power.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

He's an Andrew Huberman fan. He likes Chris Williamson. It's honestly scary. I have a lot in common with this dude. A lot of the Goodreads books, some of them are cringe, some of them are actually quite good. So here's what he tweets. Leave this up here. Modern Japanese urban environment is an evolutionary mismatch for the human animal. The solution to falling birth dates. He Meant birth rates is in emigration. It's cultural. Encourage natural human interaction, sex, physical fitness and spirituality. Ban fleshlights and other custom porn star pockets being sold in Don Quixote grocery stores.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I like the way you're such a.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Japan post for anybody who has been there. Replace conveyor belt sushi and restaurant vending machine ordering with actual human interact interaction. Replaced 247 esports cafes where young males earn false fitness signals via Tekken fighting and Overwatch shooting games with athletics in schools. Heavily stigmatized maid cafes. My analysis was quote, it appears the United States United CEO healthcare CEO killing suspects spent some time in Japan and had some thoughts about how to quote unquote return their society. I said I think there's a non zero chance he was inspired by Geikokujo style assassinations.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You could also see like JD Vance posting something very similar to this.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Let's keep going because the parallels here again to my own sensibilities are shocking. Let's go to the next one here. He says he got into a back and forth with someone. But he says Tucker is spot on in recognizing modern architecture kills the spirit. But his very first line, postmodern architecture is designed to demoralize and hurt you. Paints the phenomenon as intentional in the same way that inflation is not intelligently designed to oppress people. Neither is modern architecture. It is emergent. Yes, it is oppressive, but that's a fallout of selective pressures to build fast and cheap irrespective of aesthetics. So for those who are very online like myself, we've got some architecture posting, we've got a clear aesthetic worship. Somebody who himself, I mean if you look at him, what he's got to be in the top 1% of American male physiques.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Many are saying he's a good looking.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Man, he's a good looking guy. I don't know if he was running tests or any of these others, but if that's natural, I mean that's pretty damn good. You gotta give it to him. So he was into health, he was into obviously clean eating. If you also look at some of his posts. But I think the obvious demarcation point was this was a guy who had everything going for him. Obviously very high iq, individual. He gets to go to these Ivy League schools, masters computer science even actually in the computer science department. He was part of some fraternities and others which indicate that he had very high grades, which this is a very, very difficult field. Okay. For people who are in this. He had prestigious internships for. I think he was fixing bugs in one of The Civilization games.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, some popular video games.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

So I mean, look, it's a prototype in some ways an extremely quote unquote normie individual, but also, I mean, very.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Very Bernie the Trump Pipeline vibes.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah. In my opinion, he apparently, according to the police, he had quote, unquote, anti capitalist sentiments. And that's what some people are seizing on. But I think maybe there's something wrong with me because I perfectly understand this guy.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, that's the thing people keep saying, like, oh, his politics are so incomprehensible. And maybe it's because I do the show with you and because I'm way too online or whatever. I'm like, what are you talking about? His politics are completely like the type is very readily apparent if you're, if you're in those roles, if you're online, if you know these personalities, whatever. Now again, I do think it's worth saying all of this social media profile we're talking about, it drops off six months ago.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, that's right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And that's, you know, when he goes off the grid, loses touch with all his or cuts communication with all of his friends and family, as best as we know. And so we don't know what sort of intellectual or political, ideological journey he was on during that time period that led him to take this extreme act. So I do want to put that caveat out there.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yes, that's important.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The other thing that I want to say, just like on a personal level, we don't know exactly what the motivation was. They have not yet released the manifesto, which by the way, they really should release the manifesto.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

They're so like, it's only 262 words.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Klippenstein is on the case with this one, pushing them because the idea that we can't handle the truth of what he was putting out there is total and complete bullshit. I hope that the whole thing comes out so that we can read it. There is something that is circulating online that is allegedly the man of it. I don't think that it actually is the. There are some quotes that the media has circulated calling the health insurance industry, calling them quote, unquote, parasites, taking responsibility for this action, saying he acted alone, that he self funded and apologizing for the harm and the chaos that he caused by saying that it was a necessary action. Those things don't appear in the manifesto that that's allegedly circulating online. So I don't think it's the right one. But in any case, we don't know exactly what triggered this extreme response. I will Just say I suffer with back pain for two years. I'm sure it was based on that X ray. I'm sure it was nothing like what he was suffering. That kind of chronic pain will drive you sort of insane. Oh, I mean it's, it is debilitating and it's ever present and there's, you know, especially with certain types of like nerve pain, there's really no relief from it whatsoever. One of the, an acquaintance in Hawaii that spoke with the New York Times said that he had also expressed that he wasn't able to be like physically intimate because of the extent of this injury. So that may really have been the kind of trigger and pivot point that led him down this path.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

There's also a lot of indications that he was into psychedelics and to marijuana for example. He says drug abuse is not a fair criteria. The most intelligent, open minded individuals I know manipulate and push the buttons of their psyche via specific drugs. Drug abuse should distinguish between psilocybin, marijuana from addictive soul suckers like metal.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's a very like tech kind of vibe there.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Listen, I mean you can spot this guy coming from a mile away. A lot of Michael Pollan psychedelic books.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He was really into that Tim Urban book about Tim Urban, the woke mind virus that Tim on. We had Tim on. We talked to him here.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, look, I mean he's like Peter Thiel, Andrew Huberman guy. It's kind of funny.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He was reposting Elon Musk.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Look, you could see a scenario where somebody who is driven crazy by chronic pain, begins heavily abusing psychedelics and marijuana and basically has a complete psychotic break. If you don't believe me, Alex Berenson wrote a whole great book called tell your children about psychosis induced or marijuana induced psychosis or how it can actually trigger something. By the way, despite all of the widespread psychedelic stuff, one of the things that people in the quote unquote psychonaut community will tell you is if you are predisposed to mental illness, you shouldn't do it. So you could easily see, I mean, all the telltale signs of a psychotic break are there. Right? You basically have somebody on the precipice, very high IQ, individual, somebody who's dealing with a life changing and pressuring situation that is like a slow burn, including pain. And then you reach this, possibly you already have some previous problems and then six months you drop. I mean it's crazy to drop off the grid. Your family doesn't know where you are, you're dropping out of friends, weddings, you're like gallivanting between Hawaii and the United States. And then obviously, you meticulously plan here and prepare for the assassination of a high profile CEO. So we'll get some details about it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I will say, though, that I don't think that. But it's possible there was a psychotic break. I think that's entirely possible. I think it's also possible that there wasn't. That there was an ideology driving this that was sort of in ends justify the means ideology where he spun himself up into believing that by killing this person, potentially he was saving more lives. And so this sort of like utilitarian.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Calculus you could see it with. I mean, look, that's why the thing about Ted Kaczynski, one of the biggest arguments about it is like, was he crazy or not? And it's like, well, yeah, you kind of do have to be crazy when you kill, like X number of people. But it's also extremely well argued and highly rational. I don't see these two things as mutually exclusive.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, you're Japanese fascist, dude. I mean, was he crazy? The anarchists in the early 1900s who were potentially bombing Wall street and committing those sorts of violence with here and around the world, it wasn't that they were insane. It was that they were ideological extremists that believed that violence would lead to some greater good. That's not a philosophy I subscribe to. I don't think that that's correct. I think it's proven wrong over time. But I don' I think it requires you to be crazy to engage in that sort of ideological philosophizing that convinces you that this is actually the correct and moral thing to take.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

You could see that in Kaczynski. You were just talking about Yukio Mishima as well, somebody who long planned this thing. You can see his own ideological evolution until he eventually committed seppuku in the 1970s and his attempted Japanese takeover. Yeah. So clearly the signs were all there. And. Well, actually, I'm curious to see whether he pleads insanity defense or not, because if he doesn't and he talks about it this way, he really will have like some sort of Ted Kazoo, it's gonna be style thing on our hands.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The other thing that I did want to point out before we move on is just to go back to the way that he was found. So he was apparently riding a Greyhound bus through Pennsylvania. They stop at this McDonald's for everybody to get off and have lunch. Some elderly patron there reportedly recognizes him from the police photos and calls in a tip. The police Come. And that's how he's apprehended. Now, the police say they were surprised that they found him.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

They didn't know.

[Sagar Enjeti]

They didn't know a name. They didn't know where he was. All of their fancy surveillance. I mean, the only thing you could say it was, like, actually, the hotel security camera.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, that's right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That. That picture. That probably was sufficient for someone to be able to recognize him. But all of their multibillion dollar tech and police force, et cetera, et cetera, had nothing to do with catching him. So yesterday on the show, when we were like, he may well get away with it if it wasn't for. I don't know why he's still in Pennsylvania. Like, if he had hopped on a plane and was out of the country, he would have, I think, gotten away.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

This is part of the issue. Talking about a high IQ individual, highly rational. It's like, bro, what are you doing with all this cash? The gun, the manifesto.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Anna McDonald in Altoona, Pennsylvania, which is not all that far from New York City. Why are you. At least not in Canada?

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, at the very low. Like, maybe he was trying to. Maybe he wanted to get caught.

[Sagar Enjeti]

To be honest, you know, some people said maybe he did want to get caught because you still. You have a manifesto, you have all this cash. You have. What is that? It's called, like, a Faraday bag or something. Faraday bag that, like, blocks cell.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Blocks, like cell service.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He had. That he had the murder weapon with. Like, he had ditched a backpack with the Monopoly money in Central Park. Why didn't you ditch the murder weapon there? So there are some indications that potentially at least some part of him and wanted to be apprehended.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Why did he give him a false id? You don't. A false ID to the pd, right? They're gonna run it and know that it's fake, so. Right. And if they didn't have his name, just give him your real I.D. they'd be like, okay, sir, thanks, Mr. Mindsheet. We'll see you later.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Because the fake I.D. matched up with the fake I.D. that he used at the hospital, which allows them to connect the adult dots immediately.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah. So anyway, there's a lot of weird stuff in terms of the story, but.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It is noteworthy to me. And also I was proven correct that Eric Adams was lying out of his ass when he claimed that they knew the name, which I guessed that they did not. And the police confirmed that they had no idea where he was. They had no idea who he was. They even all these many days later did not even have a name to put to him. And it's only because of this like elderly McDonald's patron that they apprehended him.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

I mean, yeah, I mean, in some respects the crime totally comport with some like 135 IQ software engineer. And in some you're like, dude, you're an idiot for doing a lot of this stuff. But you know, sometimes there is the.

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[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

I guess of all of this, regardless, it's going to be a big trial.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's going to be oh my God.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Certainly something when we see all this. He's already. He's got quite a bit of an online fan base, I hear in the gay community.

[Sagar Enjeti]

There is, I think in all sorts of communities.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Sagar, maybe a female community. Free Luigi gay is particular. Love him.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Free Luigi was trending online. There was a lot of Sopranos memes flying because of his Italian, strong Italian heritage and appearance, you know.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Well, at a certain point, maybe those will revive some 1920s discussions about immigration. I've already seen some jokes, I have seen some jokes that are about there which are pretty good. Let's all be honest. Let's all be honest.

[Sagar Enjeti]

If the killer was on deporting the.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Dagos, what I would really take away from this is that if you are not online, I don't recommend it, but you're gonna have a very difficult time understanding this case. You really will. True. And so, and because of how important quote unquote being online and online politics and all of that was to Donald Trump's victory eventually winning the popular vote. Maybe you should get online because at this point online is reality. I don't know another way to put it. Now we're walking in assassinations. You know, the presidential election. I mean even J.D. vance, we can be honest. I mean in some respect he's the most successful poster in the world. He went from a author from Yale working in the film.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This guy had hillbilly elegy on his goodreads too.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

I think he only gave it 3.5 stars though.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Fair. I think that's fair.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

I think it's a little insulting. I mean what the industrial Lorax got.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Five out of five, which I feel.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Like, yeah, Lorax got five out of five.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He was a great anti capitalist.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

That's my other thing. Luigi, you need better taste in Brooks Bro, you know, you got a lot of time on your hands now. It's time to move past Mark Manson's, you know, what is it? How to stop giving a fuck or whatever. Let's get some deeper stuff. You're probably gonna spend the next 30, 40 years of your life in prison, so you're gonna need to level up your good breeds list. Anyway, we will continue to follow the case. It's fascinating stuff.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It really is indeed. Many twists and turns already. Okay, speaking of twists and turns, let's get to the nomination of Pete Hegseth for Secretary of Defense. Was looking like that confirmation process was on the rocks after a bunch of reporting, his personal life and the rape allegations coming out of California. But one of the key holdouts, Senator Joni Ernst, seems to have been brought around. Let's go and put this up on the screen. So she had a meeting with Pete Hegseth on Monday, and afterwards she put out a statement. She said, I appreciate Pete Hegseth's responsiveness and respect for the process. Following our encouraging conversations, Pete committed to completing a full audit of the Pentagon, selecting a senior official who will uphold the roles and values of our servicemen and women. Because he had previously written he did not support women in combat roles. So that part was noteworthy, based on quality and standards, not quotas, and who will prioritize and strengthen my work to prevent sexual assault within the ranks. As I support Pete through this process, I look forward to a fair hearing based on truth, not anonymous sources. She said. So, you know, that's very significant because part of what is going on with Joni Ernst here is, I think, a genuine concern about, you know, some of the allegations against Pete Hegses. A genuine concern because she herself is a military veteran and she also is herself a sexual assault survivor. So I think there was some genuine concern there. But also part of what's going on is that Joni Ernst was also a potential candidate for the slot. So, you know, there was a little self interested motive there.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

What's more likely, real concern or politician who wants to level up? It can be both. Yeah, sometimes things are connected.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It can be both. Again, this is someone who served the country and who herself is a survivor and I'm sure wants to see other women be able to continue to serve in some of the roles that she did, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, it looks like due to partly a massive online right wing bullying campaign against her, she has capitulated and is now saying that it looks likely she will support him. So that was a big barrier for him. You know, I still think, you know, he may lose. Like, I don't think Collins and Murkowski have committed to supporting him.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, but he's got 53. He only needs 50.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Exactly. And so that was why Joni Ernst in particular was such a key pick.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Well, apparently Lindsey Graham also considered joining Journey Ernst in opposing him. He doesn't like peak headset for a number of reasons. And look, I mean, I think it'll be interesting, actually. We can put the next one up there on the screen. Quote, unquote, Ron Hu, How Trump allies brought Hegseth Back from the brink. I read through this this morning. It actually totally makes sense. Basically what happened is that after Gates, they got dealt a huge block. They see Joni Ernst here and the Senate trying to muscle and make sure that they can stand up and actually support some independents. And then really what happened is both a behind the scenes and a front facing campaign to go after Joni Ernst because she's up for election in two years and make it known that if she were to sink Pete Hesed's nomination, she was gonna face problems in her primary. She was gonna face kind of a MAGA revolt, both online donations, but politically and professionally, her life would have been very difficult. So what they. Is that they need to make a stand on Hegseth, because I think Hegseth was also very different than Gates. Gates, it appears, had at least four or five different no votes that were against him, but Hegseth only has one. So you really only had to flip one person.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I mean, Gates had a lot of. He had worked with these people and they knew him personally and disliked him. Pete didn't have that. So there wasn't this personal animus against him that was animating some of the. I think Matt Gaethje.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, exactly. And also, I mean, Pete Hegseth actually is. Is a warrior in the MAGA kind of online circles in a way that Gates is. But then he didn't have the same baggage that the Congress was carrying with Matt Gaetz. Matt Gaetz. Also, look, Pete Hagseth may have one accuser or whatever. Matt Gaetz has got a whole ethics thing that would have happened. He would have to go through an FBI background check. I mean, that was a whole other level of salaciousness and of scandal that could have followed him for a while. I think that those two things were really. What's with Hegst? I mean, look, you know, it's like you can believe him or not, but at the end of the day, it's like, one person that we're talking about here in terms of the settlement and some of the. Even the drinking allegations. Like, again, I'm just not gonna take it seriously from some people who are blasted all the time. That doesn't mean I condone his behavior. You shouldn't drink alcohol, especially if you're in very high positions of power. But, you know, it's like, again, to be tit tutted by senators who, some of whom I know personally and have seen, get piss drunk, and Capitol Hill reporters. It's just so aggr. But anyways, the real thing is that with Hegseth, they decided to make a stand because they know it's not just about Hegseth at this point. If they capitulate there, then that means that Tulsi Gabbard, RFK Jr. Are now in trouble. So what's interesting is if you saw Joni Ernst tweets out a photo just yesterday of her meeting with Tulsi Gabbard, right? Just being like, okay, Basically a piece with the process. Another one was Cash Patel, because they were a little bit worried about him because of the people on the Judiciary Committee, people like John Cornyn and others who were on the fence about what exactly was gonna happen. So I feel, like, relatively confident I would give him a 65, 70% shot that he'll probably eventually get confirmation, something else could come out. It's certainly possible. But at this point, they decided to make a stand. And so it does look like Pete Heckseth has a decent enough chance to become the next Secretary of Defense.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So I think it's been fair to report on all the personal stuff, especially in the sensitive role. You worry about blackmail, you worry about what else could come out, et cetera. So I'm not saying that that's illegitimate, but Michael Tracy's been making a very good point about this, which is all this focus on his drinking and his love life and all things has either distracted or just the media is not really that interested in what his actual ideology is. And so Michael Tracy, as he does, has been digging deeply into things he said over the years about his supposed positioning as a quote, unquote, recovering neocon when this evolution happened, is it legit, et cetera. And I really recommend. Put this piece up on the screen. I really recommend this piece to you because Michael Tracy listened to his speeches, read his books, watched his podcast appearances to try to track his actual evolution, if he has indeed engaged in some sort of an evolution, because he's sort of painted as this America first revolutionary who's going to have this completely different ideology and position, the American military and potentially sort of rule back American empire, et cetera. And there isn't a lot to really base that on. He came to prominence for his Iraq war advocacy. He was a leader of groups that their whole mission was to promote candidates who continued to back the Iraq war. He, in the Ukraine war, continued to support this. His position was Joe Biden was not being hawkish enough vis a vis Ukraine. Now, again, these are positions that he's switched on. But I also think it's important, as you said before, Sagar, like, okay, after the fact, after consensus congeals, and it's safe. It's one thing to oppose the wars. It's another thing to have opposed these wars when it was difficult and when it was unpopular and when it perhaps went against the grain of your party and your peers. There's no record of that with Pete Hegseth. The other thing is, even with regard to Iraq, it's hard to pin down when he actually decided that he was against the Iraq war. And judging by the public record, his conversion on the issue came after people like Jeb Bush, Hillary Clinton, Certainly even John McCain, who at the end of his life decided this didn't really go all that well. Apparently, according to Tracy Hegseth, in a podcast appearance last month with Shawn Ryan, was asked, should we have been in a Iraq? At that point, he replied, I was a huge proponent of it at the time, but in retrospect, absolutely not. I've been a recovering NeoCon for six years now. So if you do the math, from 2024 to six years prior, that would be roughly 2018. Being generous that he had this final evolution with regard to the Iraq war. So all of that is to say, just in terms of the ideology he has, kind of the vibes and the brand as some sort of revolutionary is going to have this very different approach. And I think there's a lot of reason for skepticism about that. When he has taken the neocon position, even up to and including the Ukraine war.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, look, I like Pete Hegseth. I think he's an ideological warrior. I think the case for Hegseth is kind of the way that you would look at any opportunistic politician who wants to be on the right side of an issue. He may not necessarily get there originally, and he may do what is, quote, unquote, in vogue at the time. But if it's the popular consensus, he will be there. And because of his television presenting skills, he's actually Very skilled at being able to switch positions and make him not seem all that incongruent. I don't think he has a real ideology on national. And look, I'm trying to be kind here, but the truth is the guy seems to be a bit of a follower, right? On Iraq fair, on Ukraine, on everything. Kind of gets dragged to where the base is and all that. He doesn't seem to have any hardcore conviction. The only real hardcore convictions he has are a general orientation that the Pentagon and the War Department itself no longer fight wars in a way that we are able to win. I'm fine with that. As long as that is your orientation, we can get you to the right place. You know, just listen to some of the good folks. J.D. vance is very supportive of him, at least in terms of some of the discussions that they have had. So if Pete Hexeth does become the Sec Def. I think there are a couple things that we're gonna see. One is he will not be, quote, unquote, pushing his own interest. That's very different than what I think Margaret Rubio is gonna do or Mike Walzer are gonna do. These are actual ideologically. These are ideological neocons who have really not changed a lot of their position and who will take orders from Donald Trump. But a lot of the other stuff in the interagency process that is gonna be very much at their discretion under a Pete Hegseth. I don't think that that's the case. I think that will be very much like he's gonna do whatever he's told to do. I'm fine with that. The other thing that I think Pete Hegseth will go after, which I support again, is the entire military bureaucra, which he has long been at war with, specifically the three in the four star general class who are basically just HR bureaucrats. Now at this point, this relates and has overlap with dei, but it's still very important for people to understand because it's way bigger than that. We're talking about basically an elevation of. Lloyd Austin is the prototypical person who rises in the United States military at this point. This person was a CENTCOM commander under the Syrian rebels program and admitted a complete failure and the funding of Al Qaeda. He is then given the job because he's black basically to become the Secretary of Defense by Joe Biden and then does nothing for four years. Has America been very successful militarily? Has the Pentagon become more ready for war since under his leadership? Absolutely not. You know, if anything, you actually see a lot of Morale figures in the military. Recruitment is way down. A lot of the reasons are because of obesity, but a lot of people don't want to join any anymore. You have a crisis of patriotism, a crisis of recruitment. Morale apparently amongst the rank and file is terrible. Has been for four years. A lot of that had to do with COVID I think Pete will be the most popular Sec Def with rank and file members in like a generation. It's been years since you had anybody who maybe Mattis initially, but of course later on turned a little bit against Trump. I think he will be truly beloved by a lot of the rank and file. And this is somebody who actually did fight. So it is interesting to watch people and I saw an article about this. I think it was in the Journal, it was called the Disgruntled Veterans. And it's people like JD Tulsi Gabbard and Pete Hegseth who have very idea what the key is is that all of them fought at a lower level whenever they were basically entry in the military and formed a general orientation. Neocon and all this other stuff is the wrong way. The way I would say it is feeling failed by your leaders. And that's why I think if you look at Pete's past, one of the reasons that Donald Trump wanted to pick him as the VA secretary was again, because of his popularity with the rank and file. But don't forget this. He went to war for people like Eddie Gallagher and a few others who were accused and convicted of Craig, who were convicted of war crimes under the UCMJ and basically got Donald Trump to issue them a pardon. And he's been somebody with the Concerned Veterans of America who has pushed a lot of acting about PTSD and others for people who have been deeply affected by their service. So to me, it's kind of like Luigi Mangione, because you guys swim in these circles. His political orientation makes total sense to me. But for Tracy and others, even like yourselves, look, you should be skeptical. I mean, look, I think it's fair to say Pete is very pro Israel in like a spiritual way. Like he got one of his tattoos in Jerusalem.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He's like close to Huckabee in terms of his Israel views.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, that's the way I would put it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Not only. I mean, he's. This is not. This is not a dove. Right. And sometimes this gets confused. And Tracy also argues. I agree with him. Like the term neocon has just become completely meaningless because I do think by any like, reasonable definition of the term, Pete Hegseth would Meet the definition. He is very hawkish. He wants the military to, you know, be. He is not rolling back American power. There's no instinct towards isolationism that exists or has ever been demonstrated to exist within him. So, yeah, is he like, he's the type that will go on Fox News and talk about, like, the military's too woke and we gotta get rid of these DEI programs and whatever. And I'm sure he will probably do some of that. And I'm sure that cultural conservatives will be happy with those efforts. Efforts. But if you're expecting him to roll back our engagement in the Middle east or not get us entangled in new wars in Asia or vis a vis China and Taiwan, this is not the person to pin those hopes on.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Maybe, again, I think the best case for Pete is he's just not all that ideological and he's gonna do whatever he needs to do, which I'm, again.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I really think I don't know the guy. But I will say that his whole career coming to prominence is like the thing that he fought most aggressively for, for the largest part of his career was the Iraq War, staying in the Iraq War. And his analysis of that as recently as 2016 was like, similar to the sort of like Vietnam, dead enders of we could have won that war if it hadn't been for the leadership class holding us back, blah, blah, blah. So that is, you know, now he says he's opposed to it, again, coming to that position later than people like Jeb Bush. But in terms of his instincts and his ideological inclination going into any of these conflicts, it's been in favor of them and wanting to be even more aggressively engaged in all of these various factors.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

I understand where Tracy. And it probably drives people crazy to say these people are. Look, anybody who thinks that there are some leftist Howards in people in the White House, you're wrong, baby girl.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But there is an isolationist instinct that is part and parcel of the Republican Party that is represented in some strains and has sometimes been signaled by Donald Trump himself. And this is not that. That's all I'm saying.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Look, as one of the people who's probably way more in that category, I have no like, again, we have to estimate what our actual power is. Look at the elected and moneyed forces. Do you see anybody who is like that? The only quasi billionaire who holds views probably even close to what I would like to see is David Sachs. Okay? And guess what? He is. He's the AI. Cryptos are involved with the. He's got nothing involved with this. David is a warrior, by the way. I love that dude. He's actually very ideologically consistent on these issues. You can go watch my interview with him previously about Israel and Gaza. Actual courage for somebody. Make him on the right say that. What? Yeah. Hey, listen, I'm ready.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I'd rather have him there than David. I would go to baffle, inflating the crypto bubble.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

I would absolutely go to bat for David Sachs. But again, I have reality. He's the only guy who cut any checks to Donald Trump who has those views. Every. What? 99% of the other people who are cutting checks are way more like Miriam Adelson and all of this.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, and this is where I appreciate you because you didn't engage in some of the delusional thinking, but I think a lot of people were convinced by this idea that Donald Trump is, quote, unquote, anti war. And you just have to look realistically at the, you know, the picks that he's put into place, and that was never true. It's not true now. And Pete Hegseth is not some emblem of, like, you know, rolling back American involvement in any region in the world.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

The best case we could have under Donald Trump is that he succumbs to the instinct of just, like, kind of not getting involved in these things, and then we don't get sucked in. I've been encouraged right now by the tweets about Syria. That's good, right? Let's stay out of it. Great. I agree. Well, let's do the same thing when it comes to Iran. He said, we don't want to see regime change in Iran. Wouldn't have hired Mike Waltz in Rocco Rubio if that was my position. But, hey, he's the person who wants to be president. Will there be. I don't give a damn if there's rhetorical bluster, whatever, as long as we don't actually get into an actual conflict on China and Taiwan. He's actually said before, he's on a direct quote. He's like, if China takes Taiwan, there's not a fucking thing that we can do about it. Direct quote, apparently, from Bob Woodward. So these are the things that he says in private, in public, we'll see. We'll see what actually happens. I mean, and that's why. Yeah, I mean, I agree. I'm not gonna mislead anybody and say, definitely it's 100%, it's a lock. I saw the guy get rolled on Syria, on Afghanistan. I have full expectation that all of that could certainly happen. Again, I think there's a better chance than not, but I wouldn't tell anybody with certainty. I think again that the best case with Hegseth here is, look, a lot of that DI stuff. I know you don't care. I care. I want be gone. I want the force to be ready to fight. I think it's a disgrace what happens with a lot of these places.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I don't think it's. It's not that I don't care, it's just that I don't think it's that important. And I think it's used as like a lot of times. Like the CFPB example is a good one with Mark Andreessen going out and cloaking what is like this, you know, pro oligarch agenda basically in cultural conservatism. I just think it can be used as a trojan horse definitely for. For maintaining a status quo that Americans just dramatically voted against. So it's not that I. Because I think these programs are not only silly, I genuinely think they are destructive. The research shows they make people like more, have more racial animosity. They have fattened the wallets of a bunch of dishonest, racist grifters, basically. So I do feel strongly about them. The reason that I roll my eyes when I hear people like Hagseth or Marc Andreessen or whatever using wokeness as a crutch on everything, I do feel like it can be used as sort of like a trojan horse to smuggle in lots of agenda items that are at times antithetical to what Trump has claimed to be about and certainly antithetical to what people thought they were getting when they voted for him. That's what I would say.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Fair enough. And again with him, what I would like to see and what I think he is gonna do is actually purge a lot of these HR bureaucrats from this place and actually restore it. And I mean, we have a morale crisis already. I mean, if you guys don't wanna have a draft, if we ever get into a major war, then we need to up recruitment. And right now it's a disaster.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, part of that is like, I mean, who wants to sign up for some of. It's not like people. A lot of people don't feel like the Ukraine conflict or certainly what's being done in Gaza are like things that they feel proud to be involved with, not to mention Iraq and Afghanistan at this point. And it's like, you know, I'm with you, right?

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

100%. Same in terms of procurement and a lot of these other. The way that we run, you know, Lockheed and all this other. It is a nightmare. That's one of the things.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Disgusting.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

If we could figure some of that out, I would be very happy. And the less people who are involved in the managerial class over at the Pentagon, the better off that we are. I've been reading a lot about the Pacific War these days and. Oh my God, I mean, when you read about the country that we used to be and the country we are today, it's. It's sickening what has happened here. So. And at the very least, I do think that Pete Hex has some of those instincts. And so I am happy that he's gonna get confirmed. Definitely happier than having Ron DeSantis in there, I can tell you that.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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Partisan.

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It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites too. I just got it for 50 off. So how about a Cosmopolitan or a mistletoe margarita?

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm thirsty.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Watch. I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength and wow, it's beginning to.

[Hoda Kotb]

Feel more seasonal in here already.

[Savannah Guthrie]

If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian. Because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.

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[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Let's move on to Daniel Penny all right, so let's go ahead and put this up there on the screen. Daniel Penney was officially acquitted yesterday in the quote unquote subway chokehold death of Jordan Neely, quote unquote sparking applause and uproar in the New York City courtroom. So for those of you who don't remember, Daniel Penney was a Marine veteran who was riding the subway in 2023 where he was in an incident where Jordan Neely, who was a homeless and mentally ill individual, was on the subway and was menacing and threatening fellow passengers. Penny and another passenger felt that they needed to restrain Neely because they thought that he was going to get violent or I think he'd already participated in some violence when he was on the subway. Penny himself then argued that he was not liable for the voluntary manslaughter charge and then the criminally negligent manslaughter charge that was brought against him by New York City prosecutors. So for those again who don't remember, we have some video of the incident. Let's go ahead and play it on all counts. On Friday, the judge overseeing dismissed the more severe charge of second degree manslaughter, which carried a 15 year maximum sentence after the jury was unlimited. Now Assistant District Attorney have argued that Penny knew his actions could kill Neely but continued to recognize his humanity. The Medical examiner concluded that the choke hold likely killed Chokehold did kill Neely. So as you can see, this does also trace not only to that incident of what happened, but actually Some of the background of this, and you and I were talking a little bit about before this, but this is a systemic failure by the entire city of New York because Jordan Neely was one of the 50 most known people who, quote, unquote, needed help and were at risk in the entire city of millions. He was well known to city administrators and to others. And, in fact, there are a lot of people out there who are arguing like, he never should have been on the subway. He should have been in treatment and offered shelter. Well, don't forget, New York City actually did offer him treatment and did offer him shelter, and he voluntarily departed it. He clearly was a very at risk, mentally ill and disturbed. Disturbed individual who had previously been cited in violent incidents against innocent bystanders. So this was somebody who was menacing people on the train and who was. Put a lot of people in a very difficult position because not only do you have somebody who is like a mentally ill vagrant who is menacing there, but the city who's had multiple opportunities and identified this person, never took him into custody for his own safety and the safety of others. And so, just like in that Kenya, chaos abhors a vacuum. And so what happens, you have him, who's on the train, he's menacing others, and then Penny and this other bystander get involved. Furthermore, what we found out in the trial, Crystal, because people are blaming Penny for Neely's death, Neely was alive. Whenever the paramedics and others involved arrived on the scene, they did not administer immediate treatment to him because they were afraid that he had hiv. And so they were afraid of their own risk, basically of taking care of him. Now, look, I think there probably are procedures and others that are in place for that, but when you put that all together, it is so obvious that charges never should have been brought here against Daniel Penny. And look, I understand this is sensitive. People are trying to say this hero, villain, et cetera, instead, can we all just calm down and understand that this is genuinely a major systemic failure? And that when you put people, Neely and Penny and all these other people in an impossible position, then shit's gonna happen. So instead, make sure that it doesn't happen. That's why we have governments. Why else do people in the city of New York pay 45% tax if not for something that is like this? So that is my kind of take on the situation.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, my take is very similar, and maybe that's unsatisfying to people, but I just think the whole situation is such a tragedy. You know, the passengers shouldn't have been put in that position. Right. And I don't think Daniel Penny wanted to kill Jordan Neely. I mean, to me that's kind of the core in terms of the legal case against him is establishing that intent. Like did he, did he have intent to kill his. No, I think he thought he was doing the right thing. Now I will say watching the video like it is an awful thing to watch knowing that he ultimately dies and you wish that the chokehold had been let up after two minutes or three minutes so that he had more of a chance to survive. I do think the paramedics, I mean to not do. That's your job. To not do your job is really quite negligent. But I've been in situations where you have someone who was clearly mentally ill and it was not as menacing as Jordan Neely reportedly was being, making direct threats. But it is a scary situation. It is a frightening situation because you just don't know what this person is going to do. And I have to rely also on the other passengers who were on the train who said that they felt really threatened. Now I do think it's disturbing the language around Daniel Penny, like he's a hero. I mean, he did take a man's life, whether he intended to or not. I just think your point is the most important one, Sager, that the whole situation is indicative of a massive system wide failure. I mean, Jordan Neely had a long record with the city. And by the way, the potential for violence is not a hypothetical one. He had previously been arrested for assault and he was out. He was supposed to be receiving treatment, taking antipsychotic medication and he violated that agreement. And so that's why there was actually an arrest warrant out for him at that time. And so, yeah, I think, I wish he was alive today. I think he should be alive today. I think those passengers shouldn't have been put in that situation. I think Daniel Penny shouldn't have been put in that situation either. And I don't think that it makes anything better to throw Daniel Penny ultimately in prison. It doesn't change any of the systemic failures that led to this absolutely horrifying and tragic chain of events.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Exactly. Don't put people in this position. That's the whole point. And you know, this is. That's why part of it was really terrifying to see him get prosecuted because you're just. Now it's truly impossible. And I think about it all the time. You know, we live here in the city and then you're in your car and Somebody starts banging on the window or. I mean, literally had people, almost individuals who will, like, block your car and not let you move, trying to extract money from you. What do you do? You can't do anything.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I think it was. I do disagree with you there. I think it was fair. I think it was a difficult enough case that it was fair to file charges and to allow a jury of his peers to evaluate the evidence. And, you know, ultimately, I think they, based on the bulk of the evidence and their inability to, you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, come to the conclusion that he was guilty of. I think the charge ultimately was manslaughter. That he was. And we can get to the way the judge handled this, too. Yeah, that's another crazy, too. But, you know, I think it was a difficult enough case, and there was enough there that it was worth going through the process and having a jury of his peers evaluate the situation and come to a decision. I do think that that was probably the right process, and I also think that they probably came to the right outcome.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, but see, that's where the thing is. Like, this is a 26 year old guy now. You know, he's got all these BLM activists who are calling for his assassination. What is he gonna do for the rest of his life? You got a new Rittenhouse. Basically, you have two choices. You can move to Idaho and hope you shave your head and hope that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Nobody knows he's a conservative hero. So he's got all kinds of job opportunities when they gave it.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

But that's the thing. You don't want to be. They tried to interview him. He didn't say anything. They let his lawyers. He didn't want to be in his position, so they ruined his life. Look at Rittenhouse. The guy's like Hawking.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But that's not really because charges were pressed, though. That's because of the event itself. He was known. I mean, because they originally didn't press charges.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, well.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And this already was a real lightning rod case. So in any case, I mean, I do think that this was a sort of vindication of going through the process to just to give you guys. Because we mentioned the judge, and I do want to say this was, like, a little weird the way it all played out. So he was. He had two charges against him, and the jury deadlocked on the higher charge, correct?

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yes.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And so there was somebody who, you know, couldn't decide, and they. They deadlocked. And so the judge sent them home and then brought them back and said, let's Drop that higher charge, and now just deliberate on this lower charge. And on the lower charge, they were able to come to the conclusion of not guilty.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Now, there was obviously a lot of social media reaction to the decision, and there was a lot of conservative activism around. They were even picking out which juror they thought there was one that had two masks on. They're like, that must be the guy that didn't wanna find him not guilty. Whatever. So I'm sure these jurors probably saw a lot of the discussion online. And actually, conservatives were initially enraged that the judge had taken this course of action.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah. Cause he thought he was gonna get guilty.

[Sagar Enjeti]

They thought that the judge was pushing. And this may have been the case, by the way, was pushing to get a guilty. A finding of guilty A against Daniel Penny, and then ultimately goes in the other direction. And who knows whether jurors taking in that social media firestorm over the weekend impacted the way that they were viewing the facts and the evidence. But I do think it's fair to say the way that the judge handled is not illegal or anything. But it does raise questions about whether they were able to maintain the impartiality that is the goal of these sorts of jury trials.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

And the situation is crazy because it was very obvious from the judge that he was trying to get them to just come to a conclusion on secondary charge. And they were probably. Apparently, what happens in these situations is like, well, we can't be deadlocked again. They're really pressing us for a decision. And let's say on the original one, at least some of the reporting I'd seen, there was speculation that actually a majority wanted to find him not guilty on the higher charge. But there was, like, one holdout. Well, that person finally probably capitulated. I mean, but that's why this whole situation is crazy. Like, why is the judge, you know, basically making this discretion to drop a charge, you know, from these prosecutors file. The judge allows them to all in the context of resolution. Right. And it's like, well, if the jury is deadlocked and the jury's deadlocked, it happens all the time. You know, I was not. You know, I think it's crazy the amount of power some of these judges have with the sentencing or with others. I learned some of this about the whole Menendez case when I was learning about that. And like, a judge can just be like, oh, your entire defense, which got you a mistrial last time. Nope. You know, that's out the window. And then you tell the jury, you have to Narrowly consider based on this, you can't consider anything else. And then they have no choice but to vote guilty, which they didn't even want to do.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I think it's complicated though, because the argument in the other direction is like when you have these mandatory minimums and three strikes rules and whatever, then even in situations where people would look at it and be like, every case and every crime is very different. And so if you take all of the discretion out of the judge's hands, then you don't allow for any of that variability and context and all of that to be factored in. So it is complicated. I can kind of see the case in both directions. But to your point, Sagra, I mean one of the things egregious that I noted in terms of the power of these judges and how corrupting it could be. And also, by the way, so many of these judges, when you talk about corporate cases and white collar, so many of them have conflicts of interest based on their, you know, whatever stock holdings and investments and their, you know, spouses positions, et cetera. But putting that aside, the new Twitter terms of service require you to agree that if you have a beef with X, then you're going to go through arbitration in this one specific court in Texas that has been very favorable to Elon Musk and his interest. And he basically sees this as like you, his personal company court. So there is a problem with it. For sure, there is a problem with it.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

And that's my point is that it's literally known as judge shopping in the business context. So anyway, I don't know always when I come away from this, you look at the systems that are in place. You look at the way that New York City basically failed Neely, failed Daniel Penn.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And really the mental health piece is really the think about this, you know.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

How many people on the subway, you've been on the subway at probably 5:00am Just like I have in the past. These are some hardworking people, okay? These are people who are coming in hour long commute to go clean office buildings and to be restaurant service or whatever so that when the suits show up that they can come in and get served. And then the same thing, if you're on the subway at 10 or 11 o'clock at night, sure there's some people who are going out or whatever, but by and large these are very, very hardworking folks. They pay a ton in taxes, nobody wants to be on the train for an hour. And all of that, the very least you could probably guarantee them is some safety and in the last several years, every time you go to New York, the explosion of just like mentally ill vagrant violence and just presence is shocking. And it's one of those where you're paying more than anything. These people are being menaced on a daily basis. Fear for their lives. It is not right. And especially not right because the rich people all just leave. They move to New Jersey or Florida.

[Sagar Enjeti]

They'Re in Ubers or.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

Yeah, or in an Uber. Right. They can afford it. It's the janitors, the bartenders, all of the other people who are service workers in New York. Those are the people who have suffered. They have no other option and they're forced to pay more in tax and to have a subpar experience, especially as the train gets delayed and all this and be menaced and not safe while they're in the. So it's just not right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And it's not right for them, and it's not right for the, you know, the people who have basically been abandoned, you know, the Jordan Neelys of the world as well. And, and our mental health. I'm actually talking a little bit about this, I touch on it in my monologue today. But our mental health system is really quite atrocious and rife with abuse and neglect. And a lot of these psych wards are for profit hospitals that are just. They don't want to deal with the most difficult cases. Certainly. I also do think that in some instances we've gone. It's important that people with mental health issues obviously deserve human rights and autonomy, et cetera, but you also have to have the ability, when you have someone who has a track record of being a danger to others, like Jordan Neely did have, that you have the ability to detain them, even if it is against their will. And I think that there was a move that went too far in the direction of not allowing those type of holds to occur. And you couple that with there just literally are not enough beds in psychiatric hospitals. And the fact that because we have such a terrible healthcare system, people are completely disconnected from any sort of medical attention or care. And all of these systemic issues just sort of came to a head in this absolutely horrific and tragic incident.

[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

That's right.

[Savannah Guthrie]

All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Partisan.

[Hoda Kotb]

Partisan.

[Savannah Guthrie]

It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites, too. I just got it for 50. So how about a Cosmopolitan or a Mistletoe Margarita?

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm thirsty.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Watch. I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength and wow, it's beginning to.

[Hoda Kotb]

Feel more seasonal in here already.

[Savannah Guthrie]

If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian, because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.

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[Daniel Penny Case Commentator]

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