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Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
1/21/25: Dems Humiliated On TikTok, Trump Pumps Meme Coin, Elon Salute Gesture Debate
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- [00:00]
Jon Stewart
Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show, and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:38]
Adnan Vir
What's up everybody? Adnan Vir here to tell you about a new podcast. It's NHL Unscripted with Virk and Demers.
- [00:44]
Jason Demers
Jason Demers here, And after playing 700 NHL games, I got a lot of dirty laundry to air out.
- [00:49]
Adnan Vir
Hey, I got a lot to say here, too, okay? Each week we'll get together to chat.
- [00:52]
Tisha Allen
About the sport that we love.
- [00:53]
Jason Demers
Tons of guests are going to join.
- [00:55]
Adnan Vir
In too, but we're not just going.
- [00:56]
Tisha Allen
To be talking hockey, folks.
- [00:57]
Jason Demers
We're talking movies. We're talking tv, food, and Adnan's favorite WREST link. It's all on LE Tablet.
- [01:03]
Adnan Vir
Listen to NHL Unscripted with Vir and demers in the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, you.
- [01:11]
Jason Demers
Are cordially invited to the hottest party in professional sports. I'm Tisha Allen, former golf professional and the host of welcome to the Party, your newest obsession about the wonderful world that is women's golf. Featuring interviews with top players on tour, tips to help improve your swing, and the craziest stories to come out of your friendly neighborhood country club. Welcome to the Party with Tisha Allen is an iHeart woman's fourth production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. Listen to welcome to the Party. That's P A R T E e on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:53]
Adnan Vir
Hey guys, Sager and Crystal here.
- [01:54]
Tisha Allen
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
- [02:02]
Adnan Vir
This is the only place where you can find honest persp from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [02:07]
Tisha Allen
So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [02:18]
Adnan Vir
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breakingpoints.com let's talk about TikTok. This big. I mean, this is just too perfect. I mean, I'll say this, I was prepared for this. I knew it was gonna happen. I've made my peace with it now long ago. Let's go ahead and put this up there on the screen. This is from Donald Trump two days ago before he took office. He says, I am asking companies not to let TikTok stay dark. I will issue an executive order on Monday which has been issued, by the way, to extend the period of time, it's approximately 90 days before the law's prohibition takes effect so that we can make a deal to protect our national security. This order will also confirm there will be no liab for any company that helped keep TikTok from going dark before any order. Americans deserve to see our exciting inauguration on Monday as well as other events and conversations. I would like the United States to have a 50% ownership position in a joint venture. By doing this, we save TikTok, keep it in good hands and allow it to stay up without US approval. There is no TikTok. With our approval. It is worth hundreds of billions, maybe trillions. Therefore, my initial thought is a joint venture between the current owners and or new owners whereby a US gets a 50% ownership in a joint venture set up between the US and whoever purchase we choose.
- [03:41]
Tisha Allen
So this talks like the new npr. Is that like. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't think nobody really knows what is meant by this, including probably Donald Trump. But you know, if we're gonna have state ownership of media, there are models that can be successful that provide editorial independence. You know, we could buy up TikTok, we could buy Twitter, we could buy Facebook, you know, have them run by an independent consortium, have independent funding sources take the profit motive out of it. Sager, this is the type of idea I can get on board with. Yeah, something tells me that's not what he has in mind.
- [04:13]
Adnan Vir
What could possibly go wrong with all of that? Here's the thing about the whole TikTok thing. Basically Trump was pro banning TikTok. It's like Bitcoin. Pro banning Bitcoin. Pro banning TikTok leaves for four years. Remember what I said about being gone for four years? Well, what happened in four years? TikTok became massively more popular. I think it doubled its users. An ex engineer on the platform actually revealed 170 million people log onto the app, I think once a month And I think 90 or 890 or 100 million are spending an average of 53 minutes per day on TikTok.
- [04:48]
Tisha Allen
Is this just in America?
- [04:49]
Adnan Vir
Yeah. No, in the United States. Yeah, in the US that's 1/3 of the US population and probably. God, I'm terrible at math. Maybe like 40, 50% of the US adult population, just for context. So you can see here what it means and how much time people are spending on TikTok.
- [05:06]
Tisha Allen
It's not to mention kids anymore.
- [05:08]
Adnan Vir
No, it's everybody. I mean, I was on the Metro today and some guys scrolling on TikTok right next to me and I was like, I was like, oh, how'd you download that? You know, I was asking him, I was like, how does it work now? I was like, oh. He's like, oh, yeah, dude. It went off. Like he had no idea what it was. He was like, oh, yeah, it went off and then it came back. I was so excited. It was interesting. So the TLDR of all of it is it's a mess because the law that banned TikTok was supposed to go into effect on January 19. That law would impose ruinous fines on Apple, Oracle and all other US providers of any services to TikTok. Now, the thing is, is that for the Apple and all these other companies to believe this executive order is lawful, which I don't believe it's lawful at all, is to believe that they will not go through with the imposition of the fine. Now, what Tom Cotton, who is the chair, I think chairman, or one of the high ranking members on the Intelligence Committee in the Senate has said is like, no, no executive order delaying action is legal and will face scrutiny and could impose back fines on these companies. That's part of why I'm still not 100% sure the way that it's working with the App Store, with Oracle and all these other. I know Oracle has resumed service. In terms of its ability to scroll, I think it was working if you have the app pre installed, but I'm still not sure if it's on the App Store right now. Same with the Play Store for Google, for these people. These companies are in complete legal limbo. And the real thing that actually kind of ties Trump's hands is you can do as many executive orders as you want, but this is an act of Congress at the end of the day. And so the ability for trade organizations, even Facebook, honestly, anybody, to be able to file suit against them and actually have the court system impose this block is very possible. I think what's clear to me is that Trump only cares about being popular and he knows TikTok is massively popular and that he himself is massively popular on TikTok. And so because of all of that, his sole goal is to try and save the program or save the company, but also use some geopolitics in terms of his negotiations with China to get it done. So that's something that I've seen happen with him in the past. He's reportedly spoke with President Xi or Premier Xi in China. They talked about TikTok. I think he's gonna be going to China probably in the next couple of months. That's apparently one of the first trips that he wants to make as president to discuss the issue so he could pursue a forced sale and it could be like some sort of negotiation. It is just objectively crazy, though, for the US government to own 50% of TikTok. It's like. And by the way, I mean, you know, would it be a victory for the pro Palestinian side? We're like, well, we saved TikTok, but now the government is great.
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Tisha Allen
Now the government, yeah.
- [07:51]
Adnan Vir
What do you guys. Listen, Gaza people, what do you think is gonna happen if the government owns 50% of that, you know, good luck with your BLM and trans and Gaza stuff under the Donald Trump administration or J.D. vance wins the presidency next time. What's the first thing I would turn off if you didn't want something in your culture to be happening? That's the immediate thing. So I don't think it'd be the best solution. But you guys do what you want. If you're spending 53 minutes on your app.
- [08:15]
Tisha Allen
We already have the model of that, which is Elon Musk's ownership of Twitter. It would look very much like that, where certain things are very much prioritized and certain things are very much deranked and actively censored, including a lot of pro Palestinian phrases and content, et cetera. So, yeah, I mean, the whole thing is just. What do you even say about it? Looking at it from the Democratic perspective, these people are total and complete pathetic, embarrassing morons. Morons. You couldn't predict that this would be wildly unpopular. So Trump is the person who really, in his first term, towards the end of his first term, he starts pushing this. He issued some other executive order that gets struck down, it doesn't happen, blah, blah, blah. But he starts pushing it. Democrats are such idiots that the polling started to move on this, where there was some nominal majority theoretically in favor of a TikTok ban, and, oh, I guess we better get on board with this. I guess we better pass a law. So they pass it, Joe Biden signs it into law, and then here, in the waning days of the Biden administration, they're freaking out, like, my God, I can't believe we did this. We don't want this to happen. No, this shouldn't go away. Blah, blah, blah. It's like, what is wrong with you? You couldn't predict the way this was gonna play out. And also, by the way, do you have a single principle that you actually care about and are willing to stand by? Because polls can move around, you know, you could actually just have a value. You could actually just have a principle that you care about. And whether it's in favor of TikTok or against TikTok, you could just stand by that thing and argue for that thing. But no, no, they're just, like, blown around in the winds of wherever public opinion happens to be and basically led around by the nose by Republicans. I mean, Trump leads him into this thing, and Trump leads him out of this thing, and they have no ability to set the messaging or the agenda themselves. It's so utterly pathetic that it is completely insane.
- [10:06]
Adnan Vir
That's. You know, I also think it's a crisis of competence. So the law passed, and the Biden administration basically didn't do anything about brokering for sale. I mean, if you were being real the way to save it and for the Democrats to get credit, they could have gotten credit from the national security hawks and from the voters for saving TikTok. You passed the bill. Biden should get to China. Right. He didn't have anything else going on. Right. He literally wasn't even running for president. He should have flown to China, sat down with Xi Jinping, brokered some sort of deal or sale or whatever. There are multiple willing buyers here. We have a shit ton of leverage on China if we want it to be. And then they could have saved it, and they could have had it, and instead they kind of just bumbled their way in to a de facto ban. I mean, it was hilarious, too, where. I mean, how long have we been covering this story? Actually, I know in terms of my monologues from 2019, but in recent months, we're like, hey, the deadline's on January 19th. Looks like nothing's gonna happen. And then you would see, like, Chuck Schumer the day before be like, well, we're gonna try. And it's like, dude, you're a lawmaker. Like, how did you not even know that this was happening? We're doing nothing behind the scenes. So I Think there's a major competence of governance in terms of actually trying to execute the ban or even the forced sale. And also, yeah, it's like this weird, like, what are you guys. What are you guys trying to do here? And that's kind of what I'm. That's the thing I'm still confused about. Why did you guys all vote for this in the past?
- [11:24]
Tisha Allen
I don't even understand. And that's the thing. And it's. It's such a core problem for the Democratic Party, which is that under neoliberalism, they outsourced any core values to basically market logic. Right? And a corollary of that is this idea of popularism, which is just like, let's take a poll and see what thing polls the best, and that's what we'll run on, and that's where we'll be. And again, polls change people's opinions. Guess what? But Republicans really successfully changed their opinions on immigration, as one example, because they were willing to have something that they cared about and make the case for it over and over again. And Sagar, I know the reality also helped them make that case, but the point still stands. They were willing to have a fight even on things that were unpopular and to move public opinion. If you have no values, nothing you're willing to fight for, everything is finger in the wind, everything is market logic and testing it, then this is the sort of pathetic situation that you end up in. And you never are gonna be the primary mover. You're always just gonna be chasing your tail or chasing Trump's tail, or reacting to what the Republicans are throwing at you in the way that they're shaping the culture. And so that's why this story is so important outside. I mean, it's important on its own, right? Because TikTok is such a massive platform, and it is an influential part of the culture, et cetera. But it's also important because it is indicative of one of the core failures of the Democratic Party and failures of, like, really meeting the moment. And so, you know, for example, Trump's. We'll see how long Trump's, like, newfound relative popularity lasts where he was flirting with a majority approval rating, something he has never had before. And I genuinely think a lot of that is just this sense of, like, he makes decisions and he takes actions. And even if, you know, those are things that some of them I agree with or some of them I don't agree with, I'm talking about from, like, an average voter perspective. Like, at least he's taking Action. He's making decisions and he's doing things. The Democrats never can make a decision. They never know what they stand for. They never are willing to just say like, yeah, I'm gonna make that thing, that thing is important. I'm gonna make it happen right now. There's always gotta be 12 committees or a parliamentarian that says I can't do it or whatever. And so I feel like all of that is sort of tangled up in this TikTok story and just illustrates their utter pathetic and why they are now in minority and just lost the popular vote to friggin Donald J. Trump.
- [13:59]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, I think that's all well said. I see it a lot, not only with the TikTok issue, but in terms of like how they're dealing with Trump. I really think that they were just so unprepared for the collapse and lack of the resistance and they just don't know what to do now for what it looks like. And all of the sensible things that they would wanna do would be so detrimental to the Democratic Party establishment that they just don't know how to deal with it.
- [14:26]
Tisha Allen
That's right.
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Adnan Vir
I mean the good billionaire thing is the best example where they're like, okay, so what are we doing here? You know, just for people who don't.
- [14:32]
Tisha Allen
Get that reference, Ken Martin, who is the leading candidate for the DNC new DNC chair, got asked about like taking money from billionaires. He's like, well of course we're gonna take money from good billionaires and just not the bad billionaires. And of course his definition of good billionaire is the people who give money. Someone who gives money to the Democratic Party. And it's like, you know, maybe just having our country run by billionaires is bad. Whether you think they're good or bad billionaires, maybe that's just a bad thing that you should consistently stand against. But that would require having a principle and actually caring about it.
- [15:03]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, and that's awesome.
- [15:04]
Tisha Allen
And it would, like to your point, would be incredibly detrimental to the existing Democratic leadership whose primary skill is sucking up to rich people and raising a lot of money from them.
- [15:13]
Adnan Vir
What I have noticed most about many people who are new Republicans in the last four years, specifically new vibey based Trump supporters, is if you ask them about hypocrisy, whatever, they're gonna be like, look, I don't even disagree with you, but. And what are they gonna list? I don't like George Soros or I don't like Mark Zuckerberg before his previous turn to the gate. They're like, I've lived under oligarchic, democratic, liberal cultural elite rule now, and I hate it. And so I'm just gonna go with the other option. And I don't even particularly like the other option that much. In a lot of ways, the Flight 93 election was 2025. It was not 2016. Maybe we should debate that at some point with a lot of other people. But in terms of the way people felt, they genuinely felt, as if there was no escape from the crisis of competence, of chaos, insanity, pressure, culture, whatever, all came together in terms of Trump because of who he is at a showman level. His ability to convey the message of, I'm just gonna do what I want, I'm willing to hit the red button and I'm gonna vote for Trump. And I've been grappling with like, how did this happen over the last four years? And it's interesting because I think what it comes back to is an indictment of liberal cultural elite rule. And so much of it, when you're faced with. Cause we're about to talk about meme coin. That's why it's a good transition is really just comes down to they're like, okay, but Bill Gates, you know, blah, blah, blah. And there's just not enough people who have been involved at the highest levels of Democratic politics to call that out or establish any credibility on the issue. That they're like, screw you. Eat shit. I'm not gonna listen to somebody, you know, who took money from George or posing with Alex Soros and posing with Mark Zuckerberg and all these other people four years ago. I don't wanna hear it from you. Right? And so then the issue becomes a non. And that's exactly how bipartisan. What is it? The bigotry of low expectations. That's what's effectively now happening to American politics, is that people have so little faith that the other side is gonna do anything even remotely principled that they say, screw it. I'm just gonna pick the person who I think will get a little bit of what I want done. And I totally under. I did that. I don't like this position. But a rational actor in a bad model. Now how you fix that, I have no idea. Okay, you're talking to the wrong guy. But I do think that that feeling is so important for especially a lot of this new bros. Fear in others is they just feel so beaten down by a lot of the democratic institutions and others that they just feel like as if they have no choice but to have a total Escape. And that's a very hard problem to solve.
- [18:08]
Tisha Allen
You know, my view is effectively that after the Iraq war and the financial collapse, like that sort of like twin blow, the neoliberal order was basically done. Now, this is not the way that any normal person would articulate it, but it's like the system as it exists, like, this is bankrupt, this is fake, this is not delivering for me in any sort of a meaningful way. We gotta do something different. And so you have these twin rival movements that arise. You've got the Bernie movement and you've got the Trump movement. And Democrats really had kind of a choice. They could have either focused their primary efforts on defeating Trumpism and making that the priority, and using models from history of how we defeated fascism in the past and right wing reactionary movements in the past, which was through the New Deal coalition, et cetera, or Democratic elites could primarily train their fire on that Bernie Sanders grassroots movement so that they could maintain their grip on power within the Democratic Party. And that was goal number one. I'm not going to say they didn't want a defeat, of course they did. But that was goal number one. There were New York Times articles about how they were willing to risk, quote, unquote, party damage to defeat Bernie Sanders movement. And with that as their primary goal, they were wildly successful. Wildly successful. That's what the and Ryan was tweeting about this this morning. That was what the identity politics invention from Hillary Clinton. That's what that was all about. That was about saying, like, you all aren't even really progressive because you're not talking about intersectionalism and breaking up the big banks isn't gonna end racism, blah, blah, blah, very effective, okay? And also really annoying to the population and created a massive backlash to the Democratic Party. And number two, Russiagate was also part of making sure that after Hillary Clinton was defeated, the most logical takeaway for people to have come to at that point was this lady who was the queen of the neoliberals. This way of doing politics, this doesn't work to defeat Trump. This isn't the thing. We need to do something different. But instead of having that takeaway, they have a takeaway of Russia and collusion and the P tape and comey and whatever told a distraction tactic from their manifest failures at that time. And again, it worked. It worked for what their primary goal was. It works like a charm. And so to me, the real, from my perspective, off ramp from this moment, where Trumpism is ascendant, dominant, no brakes on the car, maximalist approach to Governance, which we're already seeing with pardoning all the J6 people and launching his own shitcoins and just blatant, brazen theft of tens of billions of dollars from his own supporters. That was back really in 2016, was where the road diverged. And then there was another bite at the apple in 2020 with Bernieism again. But that kind of, to me was when the course was ultimately set and the pieces you say are not. That's another way of looking at that story, Right. I don't think that those two things are at odds with each other, but my own view of our recent history and how we ended up with this, really 2016 is kind of the pivot point where, yeah, where Democrats decide that rather than embracing their own left wing response to Trumpism, they're gonna try to hold on to this bankrupt, discredited ideology that is being rejected, not just here, but rejected around the world.
- [21:43]
Adnan Vir
Not only that, but actively embracing, pushing the culture and really making that the cornerstone of a lot of your argument against the right and basically making the left. I mean, look, I'm personally enjoying it, right? Like I've hated this shit from the beginning. It's literally the only reason that that's what turned me to right wing politics was a rejection of what I thought was like cultural liberal overreach. And so to see so much of the population completely black pilled on any credibility of the media, on a lot of cultural like left wing shibboleths and things that we weren't even allowed to say over the last eight years, or you could say it, but you're gonna have problems and all that. I'm enjoying, really enjoying that. I'm curious too, to see how much of that is all Trump needs to do in some cases is not even do anything. As long as the economy is fine and as long as a lot of this bullshit is not in our culture, I think a lot of people might think that he's very successful. I just know so many people who are so disaffected and so repulsed by these like, commanding heights, that of culture and other, that just the victory of Trump himself was enough. I've been going back and doing some more reading about the Reagan era. Very similar, actually. If you go back and you look at one of the reasons why Ronald Reagan was popular, part of the reason why the 80s was looked as like a way to save yourself from the horrible like consternation of the 1970s, and all of that was a very similar period of like inflation, chaos of foreign policy issues, but also Just like crazy shit going on in terms of like movements on the street from the new left and the fall of the Vietnam activism and I mean even on the right, if you wanna talk about and look at some of the big like right wing, the Goldwaterism and stuff like that, that Reagan was able to resurrect the John Birch Society. I mean these were huge, huge debates in the country at the time. Reagan was able to use this like showman aspect of command in power where look, he's an actor, right? Yeah, he was a governor, but he had some beliefs but at the end they didn't do a lot. But by doing that, just by kind of existing and by being the showman, this cheerleader of the United States against Soviet communism, he really was able to achieve like a massive approval rating and real vibe shift, you know, in the country. I have huge criticisms of the Reagan presidency, but you know, I like to study. I'm like, why are people popular in their time? And I think, I think Trump will be a huge beneficiary of a similar movement.
- [24:21]
Tisha Allen
Maybe. I don't know. I already see signs of like, you know, tremendous over like pardoning the J6 people. That's not popular.
- [24:28]
Adnan Vir
No, I don't really, I don't think people will care.
- [24:30]
Tisha Allen
The meme coin shit really unpopular. So I think, I mean, see, I see.
- [24:34]
Adnan Vir
I will disagree.
- [24:36]
Tisha Allen
It's possible, but I think you're likely to see a backlash against him. I mean, I think there's, I think there's also going to be a backlash against the, you know, more like aggressive and like visibly cruel immigration crackdown. I think it's also, I don't think there's any guarantees about where the economy is going to be either. I think there's, you know, very possible that we have like an AI or crypto bubble that completely bursts. So a lot of question marks about how this is all going to go for him. I mean it's, look again, possible, but I think it's more likely that you're gonna get some level of backlash to. Because they are reading a mandate that is much broader than what voters actually handed them and that leads to a lot of political.
- [25:21]
Adnan Vir
It only depends on which I don't disagree. I made that point yesterday, right. In terms of overreach and what all of that stuff look like. But I'll tell you why I Disagree on the Jan6 stuff. This is a settled question. And in terms of what I mean by that is the January 6th. Americans heard more about January 6th and Donald Trump for four years straight period than any other issue about Donald Trump. He still won the popular vote and he won his own party. The idea that there would be some backlash to Donald Trump doing what he basically said he was gonna do at least, you know, maybe it's a little.
- [25:53]
Tisha Allen
Bit more than, I mean, he didn't say he was gonna pardon people like beating up police officers.
- [25:57]
Adnan Vir
He didn't really say anything. That's what a lot of people forget. JD May have said something.
- [26:00]
Tisha Allen
Right. But he.
- [26:01]
Adnan Vir
Republicans may have said something that was.
- [26:02]
Tisha Allen
Not, I think, clear to people. But listen, and people vote on a range of issues, so the fact that Trump still gets elected by a point and a half doesn't mean that they were like, actually January 6th was fine.
- [26:14]
Adnan Vir
Okay, but at this point, Trump doesn't need to run for reelection. No, I know he's gonna do it on day one and people will forget about it in one week. One of the reasons why.
- [26:22]
Tisha Allen
But these things build, right? What I'm saying is it's a sign of the overreach. It's a sign of.
- [26:27]
Adnan Vir
But I haven't seen any backlash.
- [26:28]
Tisha Allen
Maximalist. This happened like last night at 9:00pm that's my point.
- [26:32]
Adnan Vir
I mean, okay, but the travel ban.
- [26:34]
Tisha Allen
Of the maximalist approach to governance that vastly overreads the mandate that he actually received from voters. So I think these things build on each other.
- [26:46]
Adnan Vir
Right.
- [26:47]
Tisha Allen
I think part of Trump, why he was able to succeed this time is that there was sort of rose colored glasses because he had been out of power for four years and people didn't really remember how chaotic it was. And all of the worst things that they didn't like about him, but this was one of the things that they liked that they were the most upset about. And it is a big part of the reason why Republicans in particular in 2022 did so poorly. All the Republicans that were associated with. So to your point, he doesn't have to run for reelection, but some Republican is going to have to. And not all of them are as. Actually, none of them are as like uniquely charismatic and magically politically skilled as Donald Trump is.
- [27:22]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, look, I don't disagree, but I think it's day one. One of the things that they're doing is flood the zone strategy is to embrace the vibe shift, is to do basically whatever they can at the height of their powers and try not to do anything too unpopular. So far, I think they've succeeded. I mean, in terms of a lot of these executive orders. Yeah, they're gonna bitch and moan on CNN about January 6th. People just don't care. I really believe that people do not care about the pardon or if they do, forget about it in a week. Okay? The stuff that sticks with people is both a long term vibe. So in terms of overreach, what would that look like? It would look like foreign chaos. It would look like major inflation. Remember Americans stuck with Biden for what, seven months? Eight months in the first eight months There was high inflation at that time. They were like, hey, do something about this, do something about this. And it was only after a while, when he didn't do anything about it, they were like, okay, now we're gonna turn on you. It takes a while, so these things need to bleed. You're talking about immigration. I mean, first of all, as we said, there's a huge reality change. Also, if you look at the New York Times polling on this issue, it's shocking. In terms of the vast majority support for deportation, there's actually a huge support, mass deportation. What I mean by that is mass deportation of all illegal immigrants. The plus 12 issue from the New York Times. Now, to your point, am I gonna take that to the bank? Right? I'm not stupid. I know how the media and how people are gonna receive the reality of it. I know exactly what it looks like. I don't think most people do. So we'll see. It probably could change. But the fact that it's almost a 70 plus percent issue on deporting at least all of the people who are here illegally under the Biden administration is crazy. And that shows you the change in the status quo. As long as it is executed, I think somewhat competently, I think he will be more popular for it. The only way it goes south is. Well, actually, this is an interesting question too. I'm not so sure if it can go south in the same way. The trust in media has now gone down so much in the last eight years. The same conditions for the outrage over the travel ban for deportation or closing the border. I don't know if that mechanism still exists in the same way. I could be totally wrong, but I do not see the same organic level of pushback. You know, if you scroll, my barometer is like normal friends Instagram stories. I'm not seeing the same stuff about racism, sexism, come into the women's march. Can't believe he did this. I mean, you know, you remember people were showing up at Dulles Airport lawyers to try and help people to go through the travel ban. Yeah, I don't see any of that happening. I don't see, you know, Catholic Charities and others organizing to try and help Guatemalans across the border, like all this infrastructure. Aclu, right. Raised a billion dollars over the Trump administration. They can file and fight. Show me your 1099. I don't think that they're raising the same amounts of money this time. So I just, I think the country's changed. It's been eight years. The level of trust in the media and all this stuff on this issue is way down. The reality situation has changed. And another thing that I guess Trump and J.D. and all these other people deserve credit for is they have stuck to this argument now for a long time and they've won, in my opinion. Now, the Democrats might be able to, you know, if we have maybe. I think the big overreach like what you're talking about would be like a mass deportation of daca. Right. That's an issue which is definitely on the other side. But absent that, I don't really see it yet. But again, a lot of this is competence based.
- [30:46]
Tisha Allen
So it's worth remembering that at the height of the initial George Floyd protest in Minnesota, there was a significant majority in favor of protesters burning down a police station.
- [31:02]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, but again, they didn't know what that meant. But yeah, you're right.
- [31:04]
Tisha Allen
Well, yeah, and that's my point is it's one thing to in theory support something when it sounds bloodless and painless and you've been told that this will bring down prices for you and help deal with housing costs and labor, you know, you'll get better wages, blah, blah, blah. It's another thing to see the human reality of it and what that actually entails. And especially another thing when that human reality and cruelty ensues. And guess what, your life isn't actually better. It didn't actually make your wages go up. It didn't actually make it so that housing was more affordable or that other core material problems you're struggling with in your life improve. And then you add to that the fact that the tariffs are very likely. I mean, if he institutes anything like what he's talking about, the tariffs will be inflationary. And that he doesn't believe. He said this yesterday. He doesn't really believe that inflation was important to people. He said he thought it was overrated.
- [32:01]
Adnan Vir
He said it was second.
- [32:02]
Tisha Allen
He said he thought it was overrated as a problem.
- [32:04]
Adnan Vir
He might be.
- [32:04]
Tisha Allen
So he's not taking seriously that the cost of living. I think cost of living is a core, core concern for people. Core. And so he, I think, is telling himself that because that gives him permission to pursue a terror strategy which at least in the short term is almost certainly going to be inflationary. So you're right that I mean, I don't think if he just did the J6 thing and pardon them and then everything else people liked like, no, that's not going to sink him. What I'm saying is that's indicative of a maximalist strategy to over interpret the mandate and indulge his worst instincts and worst excesses. And I think it's unlikely that over the long term it will ultimately be popular. But we're gonna see this New Year.
- [32:56]
Jason Demers
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- [33:39]
Jon Stewart
Go to selectquote.com for your free quote quote that's selectquote.com selectquote.com details on example.
- [33:46]
Jason Demers
Right@Selectquote.Com ready to prioritize yourself in the new year? Your skin is a great place to start. Dime Beauty, founded by a master esthetician, is more than just a skincare company. With four skin conscious categories, Skin Care, Beauty, Body Care and Fragrance. DAIM offers simple, spa worthy products that will help you enter 2025 with confidence. Whether you're revitalizing your regimen with nourishing products or building one from scratch, Dime makes it easy. The work system, our all in one best selling routine includes a cleanser of your choice, toners, serums and moisturizers. Taking the guesswork out of skincare for your healthiest, happiest skin yet. Dime's commitment to clean ingredients and sustainable packaging ensures every product is as gentle on your skin as it is on the planet. With thousands of glowing five star reviews and a loyal community, the results speak for themselves. Revive your skin and give yourself the routine refresh you deserve by visiting dimebeautyco.com that's dimebeautyco.com your best skin awaits Jon.
- [34:48]
Jon Stewart
Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the show sharp voices of the show's correspondence and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [35:28]
Tisha Allen
We, you know, he drops this shitcoin Trump coin. Then the next day he drops a Melania shitcoin.
- [35:36]
Adnan Vir
Or maybe she dropped it, we don't know yet.
- [35:38]
Tisha Allen
Whatever, it doesn't matter. I mean he already like just the Melania. Dropping the Melania coin totally undercut the Trump coin. So already it dropped like what, 40% instantly after the Melania thing drops. I saw this morning, I don't know, I have to double check the numbers on this, but that the Melania coin was already down like 70% from its peak or something. So people, people who aren't crypto people understand these meme coins, they're literally, they don't exist. I mean all it is is hype. It is a pure Ponzi scheme. At least with Bitcoin, which I'm also not a big fan of. But at least with Bitcoin there's a story about a new technology and using it as actual currency for transactions, cross national transactions and frictionless and not having to deal with government, blah blah blah. At least there's a story with these. There's no even pretense that this adds anything valuable or productive to the economy. It's just a total greater fool cash grab, meaning that you buy in with the hope and the assumption that there will be people dumber and more gullible than you who are going to come in after you and push the price up so that you can be one of the winners. But I mean by and large these are just massive upward transfers of wealth. The Trump coin, 80% is held by insiders. The Melania coin I saw 89% is held by a single wallet. So those people are guaranteed to come out on the positive net winner side. And then all of the suckers who not all, but many of the suckers who get pulled in after are the ones who will bear real cash losses from purchasing this entirely fake invented bullshit thing.
- [37:22]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, and I generally, as people know, I think it's bad. We have talked how many times on this show? Trump Hotel Trump Super PAC saying he's gonna challenge. Stop the steal. Yeah, Trump. Burch, Trump.
- [37:36]
Tisha Allen
This is another level though, Crystal.
- [37:37]
Adnan Vir
You're right. But guess what? At a certain point this gets. Remember a conversation we had before the holiday and I was talking about sports gambling and how no matter how much information I or others put out there about people getting ripped off about sports gambling, that sports gambling becomes more popular in the United States even though you're literally losing if you're placing gambles, at a certain point people want to be ripped off and I just, I'm stopping feeling bad anymore.
- [38:04]
Tisha Allen
They want the fantasy of this, then suffer the consequences.
- [38:08]
Adnan Vir
At this point, you guys voted for this. You guys don't care about this, then fine, like deal with it. You guys just don't. I don't feel bad anymore.
- [38:14]
Tisha Allen
It's just such naked. I don't know. And they like it, they want it. End stage capitalism where like I said, look, there's tons of fakery in the stock market, right? Like oftentimes stock prices are not really related to like the value of that company. And a lot of that is based on hype and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. At least there's a story about some product or service that is being offered that is some sort of a benefit to humanity. This is just pure theft cash grab. And I mean to me it's wild that it's legal, it's wild that this is allowed at all. That you can just like invent a fake thing and steal a bunch of people's money and it's perfectly fine. But this is, I mean, it's very similar to what the Hoktua chicken. It's the same shit that this lady did. And so now again, anybody who doesn't have an issue with this on the Republican side, I don't wanna hear about your Hunter Biden corruption, James Biden corruption, Nancy Pelosi inside. That is pennies compared to what we're talking about here. Trump. What I mean, he massively inflated his own net worth. He is now predominantly his wealth is from this fricking crypto.
- [39:23]
Adnan Vir
That's part of why it's absurd is that it's going to collapse. So everyone's, oh, Trump is worth 25 billion. It's like, no, he's worth, I don't know, whatever the post crash price will be, which will be like 0.1 cents. So yes, I guess technically on paper he's worth 25 billion or whatever.
- [39:38]
Tisha Allen
Yeah, on paper. The bulk of his wealth is now in the, the stupid in Trump coin.
- [39:43]
Adnan Vir
I Will also a lot of this is Don Jr. And Eric too, who are actually the ones behind. I think it's called like World Liberty Financial. I don't know what to say. Like I said to you, I think people are enjoying getting ripped off at a certain point. By the way, if you're invested in Trump Coin, you're a fucking idiot. All right, let's just say it. Can we all be honest? If you're going online and you're buying this graph, you're a moron. And a lot of the people who do invest in this stuff do so specifically for speculative purposes to try and get in on the idiots who will buy it. I just. No long. I feel exhausted by the conversation now, frankly. Just because it's so obvious to me now, in the more socially libertarian isolated America, this is unironically what people want. And at a certain point, why try and protect people from what they want? Like they want to gamble, they wanna play the lottery, they wanna buy Trump coin. Cuz they think it's funny or ticket to wealth. What are we supposed to do? Whenever. Look, the argument against Trump has been made. The corruption argument has happened. It's been plastered all over the news. People don't give a shit. So it's like what I was telling you previously. They think that the Democratic Party is so equally corrupt, that their guy is corrupt, but he does the stuff that they like. I don't think it's a good thing, but that's what they think. They have no problem. And so it's a hypocrisy. Race to the bottom. And when they hear people who are Democrats, Chris Murphy, I saw. And others are criticizing this, it's like, dude, they're just gonna point to your photo with Alex Soros and they're gonna say you're equally corrupt. You're not even wrong. Absolutely. On absolute terms. You know, what's Pelosi worth on paper? 100 million, something like that.
- [41:16]
Tisha Allen
I mean, Hunter getting some board seat or whatever, 600 grand is nothing, nothing compared to this in absolute terms. So I just. The thing I'm saying, soccer is first of all number one. I don't think that. I can't just throw my hands up because I think these things are. I think corruption is actually really important. And you know, they don't. They control like you obviously do too. You did a whole long monologue about your problems with online gambling. And you may acknowledge like, okay, politically like I'm in the minority here, but that didn't stop you from feeling like it was Important.
- [41:45]
Adnan Vir
No, of course, make the argument, which.
- [41:47]
Tisha Allen
Is my position here as well. But it's also like, you know, again, if you don't have any smoke for Trump on don't tell me about Pelosi's and you don't care. You actually don't care and you are just a total partisan hack if you have no smoke for Trump on this. But the only corruption you see is on the Democratic side because in that hypocrisy race to the bottom, let me tell you, buddy, he just won. Because no one show me another instance where a politician has managed to grift tens of billions of dollars off their own, primarily their own supporters through something that is just completely fake.
- [42:26]
Adnan Vir
Again, assuming he actually is able to realize any of these gains, I would be.
- [42:30]
Tisha Allen
He's gonna be able to realize some of them.
- [42:31]
Adnan Vir
I would bet at best you can realize like maybe 50 million. Look, I'm not putting it down, but.
- [42:38]
Tisha Allen
50 million, that's an insane amount of money.
- [42:40]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, sure, but it's not 25 billion. Look, I'm not defending it. What I'm just saying is it's very clear that the way that this has all played out, like Dave Portnoy buying Trump coin, pumping Trump coin, right? People getting in on this. I saw a lot of this during the whole Robin Hood, you know, GME thing. And now you really see it. Really what you see today is just gambling people, single game parlays and their willingness and want, they want more gambling products. They love to be ripped off. It's the most remarkable thing in the world. And I just feel they love the.
- [43:15]
Tisha Allen
Promise of the possibility of what it could. They want to buy into. Like, you know, fortune favors the brave. And there are enough examples of random people who place the crypto bet at the right time that they're like, that could be me. That could be me. And lacking better, in some instances, lacking better prospects or any other real pathway to that sort of like luxury lifestyle or even being able to just like make it and have a normal middle class lifestyle. Yeah, they're gonna chase, they're gonna be susceptible to chasing things like that. I just, I don't know how a society survives, truly, I don't know how a society survives where it is illegal to just make up money with the explicit purpose of robbing people. I mean, that's what this is like. It is a pure Ponzi scheme. At least the Ambway people sell some shit, right? This doesn't even have that. It doesn't even have the pretense of that it's just invented and this is a core part of the economy. Like I just.
- [44:21]
Adnan Vir
No, it's not a core part of the economy.
- [44:22]
Tisha Allen
Let's not increasingly like, no, no, it's.
- [44:25]
Adnan Vir
Less than 1% of overall.
- [44:26]
Tisha Allen
This is. But this is like a central. Also promise of the Trump administration is like moving more in the dry. Let's have the Bitcoin crypto reserve. I don't know, I just, to me it's such a sign. I mean, first of all, just the brazenness of Trump. Right?
- [44:42]
Adnan Vir
Yeah.
- [44:43]
Tisha Allen
But also.
- [44:43]
Adnan Vir
And he is getting away with it.
- [44:45]
Tisha Allen
I know he gets away with everything.
- [44:46]
Adnan Vir
That's my fault.
- [44:47]
Tisha Allen
Gotten away with everything.
- [44:48]
Adnan Vir
But I don't know, the raises of.
- [44:49]
Tisha Allen
Trump and also just like pure societal decline and the end stage capitalism that it's hard for me to wrap my head around that it's like actually a real thing.
- [45:02]
Adnan Vir
Oh, I mean, I mean, look, historically, this is actually pretty, pretty par for the course. You know, we talked a lot about yesterday, the 1900s and the way that you had literal like robber barons and other people who would be in power both politically and then also similarly either involved in big business or price discrimination, et cetera. It's just a natural extension of an extremely low trust society. That's what we're in. If people are trying to parse the differences of like, oh, but Pelosi and all that is bad. Oh, but Trump is bad. And when neither have any credibility on the issue, again, they just choose the lesser of two evils.
- [45:39]
Tisha Allen
I really do. I saw someone tweet this and I think this is right. I think Citizens United really was like the beginning of the end of any semblance of, of democracy. Because I do think, like, effectively capitalism and democracy, very difficult for the two to coexist. Very difficult. If it's going to work, you're going to have to have some strict controls on money and politics. And not only do we not have strict control, we basically have no controls on money in politics. Effectively. Effectively. And yeah, so I mean, that's what you're going to end up with is a bunch of oligarchs who run the government, get what they want and get taxpayer goodies and get the decisions on AI and crypto and whatever that's going to further enrich them and screw over working people because they won't have the ability to join labor unions or organize or fight back against the AI that's going to come and take their jobs. That is the natural endpoint of the system that we set up. And that to Your point, Sagar, that both parties have, at this point, wholly embraced.
- [46:37]
Adnan Vir
But what I can't move away from is that's what people want. Majority of people, not majority. Huge portion of households who are union voted for Trump. It's just like, okay, well, you know, don't complain. I don't know what to say. Like, they like him. They don't care about the NLRB or whatever. They think it's like bureaucratic bullshit. And then Trump will just, you know, it'll change everything up.
- [46:55]
Tisha Allen
But it's not like their other option was really great.
- [46:58]
Adnan Vir
No, sure, but that's.
- [46:59]
Tisha Allen
I mean, Kamala Harris was a terrible candidate. Stood for nothing and barely lost.
- [47:05]
Adnan Vir
I wouldn't say barely. I mean, he lost seven swing states. Yes, point and a half, but he lost all seven swing. And importantly, even within that point and a half, the demographic movement is deeply important for what the future of that looks like.
- [47:19]
Tisha Allen
No doubt.
- [47:20]
Adnan Vir
And who's left in the.
- [47:21]
Tisha Allen
If it continues in that direction?
- [47:22]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, nothing is, you know, nothing in politics is permanent, et cetera, et cetera. But really what we are looking at is the new birth of, like, socially libertarian America. This is what it looks like. Like, this is the snake oil salesman era of the early 1900s. And I think the trouble, again, if you wanna change that, you have to think about why is it so popular. I will never understand it. Why people put their money on FanDuel. And look, $5, $10 is not what we're all worried about here. We're talking about people who are gambling away their life savings. Or if, yeah, if you put your life savings in Trump. This is where the bootstrap part of me comes in. I don't know. You deserve it. I don't know what. Like, that's an IQ test. That's social Darwinianism at a certain point. And what we have gotten to is a society that venerates and wants this get rich quick and all of this. Now, there's a lot of reasons for that. A lot of people in power are responsible, but let's also not let people off the hook. They like it. And I don't know what to say in a country which loves weed and porn and gambling and, you know, is constantly searching for or get Rick quick stuff. And they make fun of people like Dave Ramsey and others who tell them to save their money and put it in the freaking S&P 500. And they're like, oh, that's boomer shit. Even though that's like the greatest return that you probably could have ever asked for compared to the idiot stuff that you're doing. I mean, like, people have a choice, individual responsibility and wishes are a thing. This is what they want.
- [48:56]
Tisha Allen
Sure, yeah. But I don't wanna deny people individual agency for their decisions. But when you have a mass societal trend and then you have to ask what are the underlying economic, social, political conditions that are leading to that trend? Because they don't just come out of nowhere. And my contention would be that in an era of mass inequality, the likes of which we have never seen in human history, where the price of goods that are required in order to obtain just a basic middle class life have been going up and up and up for decades. And also there's a lot of cultural trends. I mean, you do see the valorization of the businessman who breaks the rules but gets away with it and gets rich and gets the girl and whatever. There's those social, cultural trends as well. But yeah, that leads a lot of people to be very susceptible to mythology about whether it's how Trump is gonna save them and they put all their trust in him and that's part of that, that parlays right into this crypto theft, heist scheme or if it's trusted, like, this is my shot, this is my lotto ticket to be able to make it to the good life.
- [50:12]
Adnan Vir
I don't disagree necessarily. I just sometimes have to, truly. I mean, I think about this with weed, I think about this with porn, I think about this with gambling. These are massively popular services. I could show people all the social research in the world that will show this is so bad for you. If you live your life the opposite to this, you will be better off. They don't want to do it, they like it. It's like, and look, we're not a dictatorship. You can't control people. And yes, there's a lot of people who what? There's a lot of economic reasons, et cetera and all that, but a lot of it is cultural, a lot of it is familial. And I think we're gone. I mean, I think we've long passed move what that even looks like in terms of what that everything will look like for a fix. I don't think Donald Trump is going to fix it. I don't even think it's literally possible. I think maybe he could usher in an age where we ask bigger questions in a society. Maybe more of you will be able to grapple with bigger questions and other stuff and with media and the new environment. But you know, in the interim, there's Just, this is the. You know, this is the celebration. And you know, it's just funny every time I talk about gambling or whatever. Oh, you're a narc. You're a nerd weed. Same thing. Porn. You know, they start laughing when you talk about all these things. And they will fight to the death for their right to consume the things that are bad for them. And, you know, look at prohibition. Prohibition was a good idea. Sorry. It's true. People were drunk and they were beating their wives and the women are the ones who wanted it. And then they got it overturned. Cause they just wanna be drunk all the time. It's like, okay, you know, at a certain point, you just gotta give people.
- [51:53]
Tisha Allen
What they want it. Also, we don't have to fight about prohibition today. But, you know, I mean, it led to a massive increase in crime and organized gang.
- [52:01]
Adnan Vir
Well, there's also the Great Depression. People conveniently leave that out of the story. Yeah, true. Yeah. Like in terms of what the. Where a lot of the crime and all that came from, one of the main reasons they brought it back is cause it needed tax revenue, ironically. But, yeah, it's just. Yeah, we think about it, but with all of the stuff that's super popular today and look at male culture, look at what young people, dudes and all of that are looking at. I think there's a lot of economic reasons for it, but I also think there's a huge cultural component to all of this. And the more I see of how it is not only dominated, but has become overwhelmingly popular, the less optimistic I am that anything is ever gonna change. Do you need anything to.
- [52:41]
Tisha Allen
Oh, yeah. If you guys could bring me some water whenever.
- [52:44]
Adnan Vir
Control room. Can we get water in here, please?
- [52:45]
Tisha Allen
But we can go ahead and fight about Elon now if you'd like.
- [52:48]
Adnan Vir
Oh. Oh, okay. All right, sure. Let me. Let me finish this coffee then.
- [52:53]
Jason Demers
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- [53:37]
Jon Stewart
Go to selectquote.com for your free quote. That's selectquote.com selectquote.com details on example rate@selectquote.com.
- [53:46]
Jason Demers
Ready to prioritize yourself in the new year? Your skin is a great place to start Dime Beauty, founded by a master esthetician, is more than just a skincare company. With four skin conscious categories skin care, Beauty, Body care and Fragrance. DAIM offers simple, spa worthy products that will help you enter 2025 with confidence. Whether you're revitalizing your regimen with nourishing products or building one from scratch, Dime makes it easy. The Work System Our all in one best selling routine includes a cleanser of your choice, toners, serums and moisturizers. Taking the guesswork out of skincare for your healthiest, happiest skin yet. Dime's commitment to clean ingredients and sustainable packaging ensures every product is as gentle on your skin as it is on the planet. With thousands of glowing five star reviews and a loyal community, the results speak for themselves. Revive your skin and give yourself the routine refresh you deserve by visiting DimeBeauty Co.com that's DimeBeauty Co.com your best skin awaits.
- [54:46]
Jon Stewart
Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondence and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [55:25]
Tisha Allen
So a huge controversy broke out yesterday over whether or not Elon Musk did a Nazi salute. Like a whole Heil Hitler situation during one of his speeches. The explanations. We'll show you the video. Let me Before I give you the explanations and Sagar will give you his explanation, I want you guys to be able to see the video for yourselves and then we can discuss and I.
- [55:51]
Adnan Vir
Just want to say thank you for making it happen. Thank you.
- [55:59]
Tisha Allen
So that's it. So immediately people are like, that looks like a Nazi salute. You don't think so?
- [56:08]
Adnan Vir
Okay, if every time someone raises their hand like that, is it a Nazi salute? It comes down to intention.
- [56:16]
Tisha Allen
Yes, it is.
- [56:16]
Adnan Vir
Do we believe that Elon Musk is a literal Nazi who is Intentionally zieg heiling? Or do we have a high functioning autistic weirdo who, if you watch the full video, is spastically dancing like this on stage and unable to control all of his movements and also did some weird, like, my heart is with you type gesture. Which of those two things do you think is more accurate? I don't think it takes a genius to figure this out. Well, so that's why the controversy over this is so. It's so 2017 to me. It's like whenever this was supposed to be racist, do you remember that? And people were like, oh, this is ra. Okay, go ahead and screen. Grab it. Call me a racist. I don't fucking care. This stuff is stupid. It's 2025. We've been through all of this. I find this whole thing exhausting.
- [57:08]
Tisha Allen
I would be.
- [57:09]
Adnan Vir
Are we saying Elon is a Nazi?
- [57:11]
Tisha Allen
Yeah. I mean, I would be more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt if he didn't. My Twitter timeline after he took over is like, I think you would agree, filled with literal Nazis who he occasionally, not that infrequently, makes a point of agreeing with and, you know, and elevating backs the AFD in Germany.
- [57:35]
Adnan Vir
Okay. AFD is not Nazis. A legitimate. So are you saying all the people who voted for AfD are Nazis in Germany?
- [57:39]
Tisha Allen
Germany. I'm just saying. Sager, in terms of plausible deniability, that is the most reactionary party in Germany. Part of it, the wing of it is actually banned because of their extremism tied to neo Nazi party.
- [57:52]
Adnan Vir
It's also because they have insane laws on the books.
- [57:54]
Tisha Allen
So when you talk about. You said okay, it comes down to intent. True. What I am offering is that there is enough evidence of this white South African who is very comfortable and very, very comfortable, obviously elevating Nazis on Twitter. Very comfortable. Using a lot of the rhetoric about, like, birth rates and population decline, invasion, et cetera, et cetera. And that is a backer of the furthest right. Most reactionary parties in Germany itself that. Look, the people who think that this was a Nazi salute are pretty much everybody left of center. And. And actual Nazis also were like, that's our guy.
- [58:38]
Adnan Vir
Okay, go for it.
- [58:40]
Tisha Allen
I just can't believe that I'm supposed to believe that the smartest man on the planet, this brilliant genius, doesn't know what he's doing in this situation. Like, come on.
- [58:47]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, but don't we also know he's a fucking idiot at times? And just like anybody moving around does weird socially awkward stuff, like maybe A guy named Elon who's acted like this for his entire life.
- [58:57]
Tisha Allen
I suppose if he hadn't dabbled in Nazi ideology, I would be more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt.
- [59:01]
Adnan Vir
But this is the. Can't say talking about birth rates is Nazi ideology.
- [59:03]
Tisha Allen
And then the other thing is.
- [59:04]
Adnan Vir
And why is a guy who's a Nazi advocating for more unrestricted restricted H1B Indian visas at his company? That's like pretty right. So that kind of conflicts a little bit with racialist ideology. This just gets to the whole election. Everybody's tried this shit before. Nazism, birth rates. If you care about immigration, it's been totally rejected at the ballot box. People who are predominantly black and Hispanic are the majority new entrants to the Trump coalition specifically on behalf of this terms have meaning. Elon is not. Look, and people here know I'm not some Elon fanboy. I hate community notes. Twitter has gotten way more annoying ever since we used it. The reason why I think Nazis get elevated on your Twitter feed is cuz the algorithm is designed to piss you.
- [59:49]
Tisha Allen
Off to elevate Nazis.
- [59:50]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, and you know what I get too on mine? I get a bunch of shithead leftists who are constantly bitching about race or whatever because that's what makes me mad. Or trans bullshit. That's what I'm trying to say. So like saying the right wing reactionary party AfD believes in less immigration for Germany. That's not Nazi. Talking about birth rates. That's not Nazi. Saying that people who care about those issues are Nazi adjacent is the same thing as tagging people like you who have your beliefs and saying it's communist ludicrous. That's not communism. To believe in a fire department. Oh, that's collectivism, which is part of Karl Marx. Again, like these terms are clear, delineated. People naturally understand that when we say Nazi has a very specific connotation, meaning intent, belief, policy. Do we really believe that Elon has that? There is no evidence for it unless you seek that interpretation. I just made about drawing any sort of like socialist or what? Any sort of democratic socialist belief and saying you're a full blown Marxist. I mean, you know that we don't talk like that here. Why does it apply to Nazism?
- [61:01]
Tisha Allen
Well, I mean, it sure looks like a Nazi salute and he's dabbled in Nazi ideology, but what does that mean?
- [61:07]
Adnan Vir
What does Nazi ideology.
- [61:08]
Tisha Allen
I would be very much more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if not for that and the fact that he did it twice. And the fact that a bunch of Nazis think that it was a Nazi ideology.
- [61:16]
Adnan Vir
What does Nazi ideology has Elon proposed saying that we have to care about birth rates and we want less immigration? That's not a Nazi policy. It's like, an overwhelming policy.
- [61:23]
Tisha Allen
All this conversation about, yeah, birth rate and civilization decline and invasions and racializing crime. All of these things are adjacent.
- [61:33]
Adnan Vir
But that's like saying democratic socialism is Marxism. Is that adjacent to communism? Obviously, yeah, kind of.
- [61:39]
Tisha Allen
I think this man knows what he's doing.
- [61:41]
Adnan Vir
No, I don't think he's saying.
- [61:42]
Tisha Allen
I absolutely think this man knows what he's doing. And so, look, do I think that people are gonna care? Do I think it does feel sort of like Trump 2017ish and, like, kind of cringe or whatever? Yeah. But guess what? Sometimes things that are popular are bad. Sometimes things that are popular are, like, actually genuinely evil. And that is not gonna stop me from speaking out against things that I think are wrong and extremism that I think has been welcomed back into political discourse. And, yeah, I do think AfD is an extremist party. I think his backing of that, I mean, his dabbling in the UK political situation, he's going further than Nigel Farage even is willing to go in terms of backing Tommy Robinson, who was an explicit racist Islamophobe who was in prison for horrifically smearing this teenage kid and lying about him. And so, yeah, I don't think it's crazy to think that this is a signal that he's throwing out there and give himself enough plausible deniability. I think that is what's going on.
- [62:47]
Adnan Vir
I just think it's salutable. I honestly think that's ridiculous. Like, to say that is an intentional Z Kyle salute. I mean, by the way, has this been beneficial to the Trump movement? Or Elon Musk or Tesla or even his other companies? I mean, I think the guy is just spastic and weird. Anybody I know who's ever met Elon.
- [63:04]
Tisha Allen
You'Re not buying the Roman salute coat?
- [63:06]
Adnan Vir
No, no, no. I was going to say Roman salute if we all want to talk. Right. As an Indian, actually, you know, this is something that's always pissed me off, is that Hitler appropriated various different symbols that have now become conflated with Nazism. So, for example, many Hindus, a lot of white tourists, when they go to India, they're like, why are there so many Nazi swastikas over here? It's like, oh, turns out, as an ancient Hindu symbol, it's the other way. And the swastika is, you know, something that has nothing to do with that in India. And in India they are very able to say, yeah, actually it's an ancient Hindu symbol. And yes, the Nazis used it. So we're not just gonna let people tar it and will actually continue to paint it on temple floors. Put it all over. And we're just gonna continue with the Roman salute. The quote, unquote, sieg heil was literally appropriated from the ancient Roman salute, which is famous in many of these statues. Now, am I gonna go around Zieg Heiling a Roman saluting? No.
- [63:59]
Tisha Allen
Well, also, the Roman salute apparently was not a real thing, was like made up movies and then adopted by fascists.
- [64:07]
Adnan Vir
That's right. It was appropriated by fascist ideology in the early 1900s, specifically Mussolini, Oswald Mosley and others, because they were trying, specifically Mussolini as well, to try and bring back this idea of like, Romanism and greatness to the Italian empire, which also Hitler was greatly influenced by in the 1920s. But again, with Elon, with all of this Nazism and calling someone a Nazi or even implying all this stuff around people is, in my opinion, a huge reason why the cultural left has so much less credibility and the media today. Like, you have to ask people very basic questions, like I just did. Do you think this person is a Nazi? Like, I just. And look, maybe you do. I don't think that that's the case at all. And to get there, you have to do what, you know, all this mental gymnastics about adjacency, which I find just as annoying. When right wingers say this about any social democratic thing and say that's literal Stalinism, Communism, I would say same thing.
- [65:05]
Tisha Allen
I think he and I think Trump are like, I think this administration is a fascist administration. I mean, we've had this debate before, but if you look at the definition, and especially with the merging of the richest man in the world and the business with the government, and I mean, we have a raft of executive orders that are enlisting the military in draconian border policy. Like, you know, not to be whatever. But like you said, words do have meaning. And if you look through the definition. Yeah, I think it fits. I think that. I do think that this is a fascist administration at its core that is in power. I think Elon is obviously a key part of that. So that's what I would say.
- [65:43]
Adnan Vir
I mean, I just think this will go on forever. But I mean, again, it's like it's deeply within the American context, which I don't think has always been quoted fascist.
- [65:52]
Tisha Allen
The American context has flirted with fascism in the past. So I don't think it's not American.
- [65:57]
Adnan Vir
As long as that's being qualified, like, that's fine. But it's like, again, like terms I think are important and I also think they should be reserved for extraordinary things. So if we had Reichstag fires, false flags, militarization, end of government, and then the fusing of the economy in the state, then sure, I'll talk about fascism. Until that as long as there's a court system and what a Congress which can frequently and often does change, and a democratic populace that frequently changes its mind and has the ability to have pushback, et cetera, like to say they're living in fascist countries. Just frankly insane. I mean, you can say that there's fascist tendencies or would want to be fine. I mean, I think all of those are okay, but I think it would.
- [66:44]
Tisha Allen
Want to be, and this is what I've expressed for a while, that I think this administration, because there are no real checks left, because there are no real guardrails left, left, Will be able to more fully exercise those tendencies this time around. And I think there's already some significant signs of that.
- [67:07]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, I mean, again, if we're using the idea of executive power or use of the military or whatever, if that's always fascist, then that erases the meaning of that. No, but if that's the tendency, then it erases the meaning of that. And then that means then that that fdr, who often did many of the same things that Trump is currently doing, actually far more in terms of his executive power.
- [67:29]
Tisha Allen
Fascism is explicitly right wing?
- [67:31]
Adnan Vir
No, not necessarily, no. Well, Mussolini started out as a socialist.
- [67:35]
Tisha Allen
Any definition of fascism, any basic definition that you would look up online would just one of the descriptors would be far right.
- [67:42]
Adnan Vir
Well, it's difficult. And that's more because of a connotative with the Hitlerism. If we actually look and study like the history of fascism Italy, a lot of it started out as left wing that got fused with nationalism, kind of beside the point. The issue is not about right wing per se. It's. We're talking about tendencies. Like the reason why you're using the term is because of actions like military or executive order. Those are standard executive powers under the American imperial presidency.
- [68:08]
Tisha Allen
Like again, FDR ending left, right. Citizenship, which is part of the Constitution, is not a standard executive power.
- [68:15]
Adnan Vir
Okay, but if it gets struck down power.
- [68:16]
Tisha Allen
Right. Invoking the Foreign Enemies Act, Is that what it's called? Alien Enemies Act? Yeah, the Alien Enemies act, which is what was used to justify Japanese internment and has never been used in this context. That's not an ordinary executive order. So, I mean, these. And again, partly this will play out in terms of how far does Trump want to go? Because if some of these things do get struck down by the Supreme Court, which is no guarantee, because the Supreme Court is more or less on his side at this point, and he's like, I don't care. I'm doing it anyway.
- [68:46]
Adnan Vir
I have.
- [68:47]
Tisha Allen
Don't you think that that's a possibility?
- [68:49]
Adnan Vir
If he does that, then that would be a. Do I think it's a possibility? Honestly, no. And especially on birthrights.
- [68:54]
Tisha Allen
Because when we talked about it earlier, you said you thought it was possible.
- [68:57]
Adnan Vir
No, the birthright sentence. I said, yeah, anything is possible. But, like, do I think that that's the most likely outcome? Absolutely not. No. I mean, there's no evidence of that previously. Now you know this. I mean, even the whole Andrew Jackson thing, like, we really think that's gonna fly today. So, look, we're gonna base it back in this. I have no idea. Also, the political utility of this, because Nazism itself, I think, is commonly understood to mean what I think it means. And so when the term is misappropriated and applied as it was to Donald Trump and then rejected at the ballot box, it causes a loss of credibility in media and also. Really. Also makes it more difficult if you wanna criticize actual Nazis about a lot of this stuff. So conflation makes it more difficult to have nuance or even interesting conversation around any of these issues. And I really think the democratic socialist communist argument is the perfect one. Do you know how many people called FDR a communist back in his time? Do I think he's a communist? No, but the reason why was because they're like, oh, any sort of social government or any of that, even if it's supported by the people, that's communism.
- [70:03]
Tisha Allen
Let me ask you this. So Trump calls people like Kamala Harris and whatever, communists all the time?
- [70:09]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, all the time. How many times I've said don't.
- [70:11]
Tisha Allen
But do you think. Do you think that has caused him a loss of credibility? Do you think that that's diminished his standing? Blah, blah, blah.
- [70:19]
Adnan Vir
That's a good question, actually. I mean, honestly, don't you think kind of has with a lot of people? Because we've talked a lot about this in the past.
- [70:26]
Tisha Allen
I think she'll work for him pretty well, to be honest with you.
- [70:28]
Adnan Vir
No, but we've talked in the past how they used to say that About Joe Biden. Most people didn't believe Joe Biden.
- [70:32]
Tisha Allen
I'm pretty sure he called Kamala a fascist and a communist.
- [70:36]
Adnan Vir
I don't know. But he called Biden Republicans always called Democrats communist. And that's why I think the term doesn't have much.
- [70:41]
Tisha Allen
The thing is like, there's so much smoke for people being like, Trump's a fascist and here's why and here's the reasons. But when he does it and when Republicans constantly do it all the time, it's like, yeah, that's fine. That doesn't cause a loss of credibility.
- [70:56]
Adnan Vir
Right, but that doesn't mean you should play the same game. Game?
- [70:58]
Tisha Allen
No, I'm not playing the same. Hippocratic. The idea that Kamala Harris is a communist is so preposterous. If you look at the definition of fascism, far right, ultra nationalist, militaristic, often aligned, directly co opting large parts of big business, I think there's a pretty reasonable case to be made. One may disagree. And you are fair. It's perfectly fine for you to disagree. And we've had this disagreement before, et cetera, et cetera. But I do feel the way you do of like, well, words have meaning and this seems to fit the, you know, fit to a T pretty close.
- [71:35]
Adnan Vir
But I made an awkward movement. I mean, that's where I'm just look, an awkward movement. Part of the reason why I feel and hate this whole conversation is it's so fucking stupid in my opinion. Like, look, at the end of the day, I don't think most people think Elon is a Nazi. So, you know, like, like, what are we doing here? We're analyzing the movement of Elon because he's like an autistic spastic weirdo. Like, if an autistic kid did that at a celebration for a school, what do you think we would all think? We're like, oh, you know, it's ableist.
- [72:03]
Tisha Allen
I'm being ableist right now, I guess.
- [72:05]
Adnan Vir
Yeah, good question. That's perfect. We should. No, Elon is neurodivergent. That's what all of you people are not. I'm sorry, his neurodivergence has. His neurodivergence is not being appropriately applied to the context within all of this. I just.
- [72:21]
Tisha Allen
Well, the ADL agrees with that.
- [72:22]
Adnan Vir
See why it's so important? Well, that's because the ADL is currying favor with power. Okay, that's a different story.
- [72:28]
Tisha Allen
The adl. Yeah, go ahead and put the ADL thing up because at least then we can end by Both shitting on the adl. They, you know, this is the group that if you do a rally chant that they don't like, it's a hate crime. If you wear a keffiyeh, it's an anti Semitic attack. I mean, we showed you, showed you the move. Sager disagrees. It does look, many people are saying, though it does look like a Sig Heil, it does look like it. But the adl, no smoke for Elon, of course. This is a delicate moment. It's a new day. So many are on edge, our politics are inflamed and social media only adds the anxiety. It seems that Elon Musk made an awkward gesture in a moment of enthusiasm, not a Nazi salute. But again, we appreciate that people are on edge in this moment. All sides should give one another a bit of grace, perhaps even the benefit of the doubt and take a breath. This is a new beginning. Let's hope for healing and work toward unity in the months and years ahead. I mean, currying favor with power, number one. Number two, I mean, Elon supports the Israeli genocide in Gaza and that's their primary goal and concern. So if you're good on that, then you can do whatever else you know you want and you're pretty much gonna be good to go. With regard to the adl, no one.
- [73:41]
Adnan Vir
Can accuse me of hypocrisy on the ADL issue. Ironically, if you recall, Elon was heavily against the ADL back in the day. But the ADL wants to keep Curry themselves up with power with the Trump administration. With Elon, I think they correctly see this as like this, you know, kind of like Twitter type controversy media thing that doesn't have any actual influence or whatever and they want to stay cozied up. Like Miriam Adelson is one of their biggest donors, right. And they want access and continued ability to influence us Censorship and power. And so within all of this context, it makes perfect sense. And yes, I agree they're total hypocrites because in the past this is exactly the type of thing that they would have latched onto and they have frequently derided influence.
- [74:29]
Tisha Allen
Well, if it was a college kid doing the same thing, you know, at a, you know, college kid with Asperger's doing the same thing.
- [74:37]
Adnan Vir
I agree with you.
- [74:38]
Tisha Allen
At a Pro bowl, that's why I think both are bad, they would, you.
- [74:41]
Adnan Vir
Know, I mean, there's plenty of screen grabs crystal of people in Keffi is doing Z Kyles like, should we take them seriously or do I correctly see, like, okay, yeah, there are Some real anti Semites who are probably doing this. The vast majority of people who I know who are pro Palestine are not anti Semitic. They're just horrified by the action. I think the same thing with Elon. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm giving people benefit of the doubt here. Like, and not even benefit of the doubt, but just like parsing the overall thing and then trying to cast it correctly for what the core motivation is. Like, this is the core motivation for Donald Trump every day when he gets up to be a fascist Hitlerian dictator. Like, no. Is this core motivation for the people who support Elon or even Elon himself? Elon, all he cares about is making more money. That's not fascist. If anything, it's as American tale as old as time. Time is to try and to curry favor with the incoming administration. So anyway, I really don't think this does any service to good discourse, to politics. And I think most people who see this stuff rightfully think it's just so stupid bullshit. And I think it loses a lot of credibility, honestly. Like the media, I saw CNN and others like pushing, trying to turn this into a thing. Like, it just feels exactly like so many of those Trump Trump controversies which pushed. Actively pushed a lot of people away from the Mac.
- [75:58]
Tisha Allen
You know, I would have agreed with obviously I do think he knew what he was doing here, so. But we'll put that to the side. I actually would have maybe agreed with that point previously. But then I'm like, well, Republican and Trump, like, they do that shit all the time. Call every fascist enemy of the people like communists, blah, blah, blah. And doesn't seem to have hurt them too much. He said way more extreme, insane things about Kamala Harris than she ever said about him and her, like when she made the case he was a fascist. Which by the way, is not just something I said. It's something that people like Mark Milley, who served with him also said, the esteemed Millie. Yeah, well, at least he was there to be like, let's not shoot protesters in the likes. Which is also a behavior, I believe, of fascist inclined individual. But in any case, that was the context of which that came up and Trump has called her every name in the book. So the idea that you were too mean to him and that's why you didn't have credit, I just don't buy it.
- [77:01]
Adnan Vir
No, it's a mean thing.
- [77:01]
Tisha Allen
I just don't buy it. I just don't think that that's the lesson of this election. When the guy who was the most obnoxious and the meanest and the most divisive and the most playing to this, like tribal in group out group mentality, that's the guy that won. So I'm just not, you know, I'm not as persuaded by that point as I perhaps would have once been.
- [77:21]
Adnan Vir
I don't think that's a bad point. I think the reason why it is hypocritical fundamentally is that right wing culture kind of itself is basically right wing culture. And criticism of the mainstream is still seen as inserted. And thus is one where paying the price and the, you know, the checking action, like what you're talking about is not one which is going to land similarly with that audience. As opposed to when Trump says so and so is a communist. And I mean, look, I mean, how many times have I said here before, I think calling people communists is stupid. I think calling Bernie a communist and all that is foolish. Cause he should actually debate these things on their merits and actually dive into them. And that if we stoop to the, oh, this is Marxist. Oh, this is socialist stuff, you actually lose any ability to win over somebody who was a Bernie Sanders voter. But you know what? Maybe you're right because Trump called Kamala and all them communists and he won a ton of.
- [78:19]
Tisha Allen
He won a lot of people and he called her a fascist.
- [78:21]
Adnan Vir
I don't know.
- [78:21]
Tisha Allen
Yeah, I mean, all of these things were said. So I think it matters a lot about. Listen, I mean, Trump is also able to get away with things that other people aren't.
- [78:34]
Adnan Vir
Yes, true.
- [78:35]
Tisha Allen
But the thing Derek Thompson, when we had him on said about how wrote in his piece about how Trump really capitalized on the social media, all tribe, no village dynamic where everything is about just like tribal in group out, group signaling. And so it wasn't that he won in spite of calling Kamala a communist and a fascist and an enemy of the people or whatever. It's in part because of that. I think that that is, I think that's an important insight. It's a bad insight. Like it's bad for politics and it's bad for the future, etc. But I don't think that he's necessarily wrong about that, that he knows how politics is inherently divisive and this is something Democrats are stupid and run away from. Right. They are so afraid of conflict and whatever or like can't make a decision, blah, blah, blah. Trump sees this as a divisive conflict and he is going to draw the lines of that divide and aggressively so and unrelentingly. So. So and so that's why. Because he is the person who shaped that divide and drew the line and enforced it in the most aggressive, vigorous way you possibly could. He's the victor. And so, yeah, I think that doesn't mean that it was the best argument for Kamala to make about fascism or whatever. But I think that that central insight of, like, you have to have a divisive politics. You have to draw the divide in a way that is politically beneficial to you. I think Trump understands that in a way Democrats don't.
- [80:24]
Adnan Vir
Let's end on that, cuz. I totally agree with that. There you go. I think evidence has shown us the Nazi one doesn't really work. You gotta find something else. You gotta find something that hits with people. Maybe it will hit with people.
- [80:36]
Tisha Allen
I don't know, 100%.
- [80:37]
Adnan Vir
People could start actually turning against it. But I'm somewhat doubtful personally at this point. Especially in the shitcoin, illegal or pro gambling era. Anyways, that's a way longer conversation. Chris. I enjoy doing this stream. How long have we been going for? 2 hours and 20 minutes.
- [80:53]
Tisha Allen
Yeah, I think that's pretty good.
- [80:54]
Adnan Vir
If you guys like it. Thank you very much. You can sign up Breaking Points premium subscriber@breakingpoints.com. maybe we'll do something like this again in the wild. I would know.
- [81:03]
Tisha Allen
We could do it.
- [81:04]
Adnan Vir
I mean, it's freewheeling. You got to ask about the Aussie open thing. I was like, you know, this is fun. And then here we're not worried about time and putting the show out or whatever.
- [81:13]
Tisha Allen
True.
- [81:14]
Adnan Vir
I'm really actually enjoying it. We can just talk as much as we want. And honestly, you know, I was watching some of the live numbers. It didn't really go down that much. We were talking for 20 or 30 minutes. So I was like, hey, maybe it works.
- [81:24]
Tisha Allen
Yeah, maybe do it like once a week.
- [81:26]
Adnan Vir
Yeah. Whoa, that's a lot. Okay, maybe. Maybe we'll talk about that.
- [81:29]
Tisha Allen
We have to figure out. It's a totally different business model too. I have to think about all those things. But anyway, it was fun. Thank you, guys. Interesting week. And Counterpoints will be here for you tomorrow. We'll be back for you Thursday, so. And we'll see you then.
- [81:53]
Jon Stewart
Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show, and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors. And with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [82:31]
Adnan Vir
What's up, everybody? Adnan Vir here to tell you about a new podcast. It's NHL Unscripted with Virkin Demers, Jason.
- [82:37]
Jason Demers
Demers here, And after playing 700 NHL games, I got a lot of dirty laundry to air out.
- [82:42]
Adnan Vir
Hey, I got a lot to say here, too, okay? Each week we'll get together to chat.
- [82:44]
Tisha Allen
About the sport that we love.
- [82:46]
Jason Demers
Tons of guests are going to join in, too.
- [82:48]
Adnan Vir
But we're not just going to be talking hockey, folks.
- [82:49]
Jason Demers
We're talking movies, we're talking tv, food, and Adnan's favorite wrestling. It's all on Le table.
- [82:55]
Tisha Allen
Listen to NHL Unscripted with Virk and.
- [82:57]
Adnan Vir
Demers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [83:04]
Jason Demers
You are cordially invited to the hottest party in professional sports. I'm Tisha Allen, former golf professional and the host of welcome to the Party, your newest obsession about the wonderful world that is women's golf. Featuring interviews with top players on tour, tips to help improve your swing, and the craziest stories to come out of your friendly neighborhood country club. Welcome to the Party with Tisha Allen is an iHeart woman's fourth production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. Listen to welcome to the Party that's P A R T E e on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.