12/16/25: MAGA Revolt Over Trump Rob Reiner Attack, Kash Fumbles Brown Manhunt, Zionists Push For Muslim Expulsion

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode: 12/16/25 – MAGA Revolt Over Trump Rob Reiner Attack, Kash Fumbles Brown Manhunt, Zionists Push For Muslim Expulsion

Date: December 16, 2025
Hosts: Krystal Ball & Ryan Grim (filling in for Saagar)
Podcast: Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar, iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

This episode tackles an unprecedented backlash within the MAGA base over Donald Trump's callous response to the murder of Rob Reiner, a widely respected director and actor. The hosts analyze why this particular moment "broke through" for even solid Trump voters, examine broader implications for Trump’s political standing, and explore the links between political identity and personal tragedy.

Other major topics include the Brown University mass shooting and severe law enforcement missteps, MAGA officials slamming Muslims in reaction to global terror incidents, and the calculated stoking of Islamophobia to shore up pro-Israel support among Republicans.

Throughout, Krystal and Ryan emphasize the social, emotional, and political dynamics underlying each news story.

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1. The Murder of Rob Reiner & Trump’s Callous Response

Tragedy Details and the Personal Side ([05:45] – [10:35])

• Krystal shares her personal reflections on Rob Reiner, remembering him as genuinely kind and down-to-earth despite political differences.
  • “He was just so friendly and so, so familiar in like a really charming way...that's what you hear from everybody who knew him.” – Krystal ([05:54])
• Rob and Michelle Reiner were killed in their home; their son Nick, long struggling with addiction and mental illness, was arrested and charged.
• Reports indicate a recent confrontation between Rob and Nick at Conan O'Brien's holiday party, one day before the murders.
• Deep societal questions raised:
  • The hosts note this is a pattern among high-profile families they know – “major, major issues in this country with addiction, with mental health, with, you know, getting people the help that they need and obviously resources were not an issue in this instance.” – Krystal ([09:54])

The Human Cost & Why This Loss Resonated ([10:36] – [14:13])

• Ryan highlights that Reiner’s death is so jarring partly because of his cultural impact: "They create art, which is so deeply meaningful to so many...I would be genuinely devastated if any of them died in the same way.”
• Strong emphasis that art and humanity transcend politics: “Who cares about Rob’s politics? … They create…seminal moments…parts of [our] childhood.” – Ryan ([11:40])
• The grief was widespread and genuine, crossing political lines. The hosts stress the universal nature of the loss.

Trump’s “Utterly Deranged” Reaction & MAGA Backlash ([14:13] – [24:52])

• Trump posted on Truth Social blaming Reiner’s “Trump Derangement Syndrome” for his death, an assertion Krystal calls “utterly deranged” ([14:16]).
• When asked about his post, Trump doubled down:
  • “‘I was not a fan of Rob Reiner at all in any way, shape or form. I thought he was very bad for our country.’” — Trump ([15:33])
• Unique: prominent MAGA media personalities and long-time Trump voters openly condemned Trump's remarks.
• Krystal: “You want to talk about something that is deranged—like, that is utterly deranged.” ([14:37])

Notable Quotes from MAGA Voters ([20:43] – [22:32])

• Jill in Indiana (Megyn Kelly Show):
  • “I voted for him three times. I still love him as my president. But it was wrong what he did...If we value human life as Christians and Americans, then this stuff, there's just...it's indefensible.” ([20:43])
• Second Caller:
  • "I really think that Trump's comment has just officially put that nail in the coffin." ([22:34])

Broader Cultural & Political Implications

• The “base” giving itself permission to criticize Trump – a new phenomenon.
• Polling shows a decline in Trump’s “strong approval” among his 2024 voters.
  • “In March it was 66%. Look at where we are now. It’s just 50% of 2024 Trump voters strongly approve of him. Look, Trump voters still like Donald Trump, but they don’t love him as much.” – Harry Enten (NBC News poll, cited at [28:12])
• Krystal: "His people are ride or die and they frickin love the guy. That has really eroded..." ([28:06])
• Trump’s “magic sauce” starting to disappear: age, lack of energy, disconnect from public mood.
  • “He looked so much more alive. His color was different…It really brought home…how much he has aged…” – Krystal ([35:53])

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2. Brown University Shooting – Law Enforcement Failures, Kash Patel’s Dubious Priorities

FBI Fumbles & Public Distrust ([40:10] – [51:49])

• Two students killed at Brown University; suspect still at large amid confusion and few leads.
• The FBI prematurely declared a person of interest, publicly named an innocent Army veteran, and then backtracked, causing reputational and investigative harm.
• FBI Director Cash Patel deflects blame onto local police and university security.
  • Krystal: “It sounded like he was blaming, like, not even the local PD, like the campus security, like they're the ones who are supposed to be doing some, like, national or international manhunt. Preposterous.” ([45:37])
• The hosts highlight the “palantir mass surveillance state” and question why so little is gained from such extensive surveillance ([45:29]).
• Patel spends time on podcast interviews about his love life during the crisis, further undermining public confidence:
  • Ryan: “I don’t think that the director of the FBI should ever be doing out there in public. I mean, it’s disgusting, it’s shocking.” ([41:19])

Emotional Impact ([49:14] – [51:14])

• The victims were “in the prime of their lives...had big dreams.”
• “This is something you’ve been entrusted by the public to take seriously and to do. We’ve given you extraordinary powers. You’re supposed to work on our behalf. You’re supposed to keep us safe.” – Ryan ([49:40])
• Krystal: “...Meanwhile...the President of the United States is saying, that's not really our problem. And Cash Patel is doing sit downs about his girlfriend and his love life. You just, I mean, you just can't make it up.” ([51:14])

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3. Republican Response to Bondi Beach Attack – Escalating Islamophobia

Explicit Calls for Expulsion ([53:59] – [57:37])

• GOP politicians leverage an attack at Bondi Beach in Australia to call for blanket expulsions of Muslims from Western countries.
  • Senator Tommy Tuberville on the Senate floor: “Islam is not a religion, it’s a cult...We’ve got to send them home now or it'll become the United Caliphate of America.” ([54:21])
  • NYC Councilwoman Vicki Paladino: “We need to take very seriously the need to begin the expulsion of Muslims from Western nations or at the very least the severe sanction of them within Western borders..." ([54:54])
  • Florida State Rep. Randy Fine: “All Muslims must go, diversity is not our strength. 9/11 wasn’t enough. October 7th wasn’t enough...” ([55:25])
• Krystal notes the hypocrisy: Rashida Tlaib was censured by Congress for far less inflammatory speech.

Manufactured Islamophobia and Pro-Israel Strategy ([57:37] – [60:55])

• Discussion of Israeli efforts to “get people back on our side” by stoking Islamophobia—a memo cited finds this to be the most effective tactic to rally Republicans to Israel’s cause.
  • Ryan: “They genuinely seem to believe that you are allowed to group in the actions of a few individuals...and that that will never backfire on you. Even though that is literally the heart and soul of their cause that they’ve decided to fight with everything they have. Anti-Semitism.” ([58:06])
• The hosts warn this cynically opens the door for broader ethnic and religious scapegoating, which historically rebounds against Jews and other minorities.
  • “You cannot put that cat back in the bag, period.” – Ryan ([65:33])

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4. Broader Discussion: Identity, Race, and the American Experiment

Anti-Immigrant, Racialist Fantasies ([65:20] – [74:22])

• The conversation pivots to the rise of overtly racial rhetoric in segments of the right and its futility in the context of American history and demographics.
• Debunking the “whites-only” nostalgia—a "LARP and a fucking fantasy.”
  • Krystal: “You're not getting your, you know, whites only country. That's...not happening. You're not getting your repeal the 19th Amendment because we don't like the way the women are voting. It's not happening. It's childish to pretend this is like a real outcome...” ([67:35])
• Ryan emphasizes that the American project was never based on caste or blood, contrasting with India and Europe:
  • “The most old world bullshit...is the idea that because of who your grandfather was...should determine the fate of your entire life.” ([70:27])
• Polling and lived experience suggest most Americans prefer a colorblind, universalist ideal.
  • “What we saw in the backlash to WOKE and the identitarian excesses of the left is proof that the American People really do believe in aspiring to that colorblind vision at core.” – Krystal ([73:00])

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Krystal: “His people are ride or die...That has really eroded.” ([28:06])
• Jill in Indiana: “If we value human life as Christians and Americans...there's just, it's indefensible.” ([21:00])
• Ryan: "You cannot put that cat back in the bag, period." ([65:33])
• Krystal: “You're not getting your, you know, whites only country. That's...not happening.” ([67:35])
• Ryan (on caste): “That’s the most third world bullshit that you can ever do. It really is.” ([72:18])
• Krystal (on identity): “I am literally the only person in my household that would be considered white [in 1920]. So much of this is just meaningless garbage anyway.” ([73:00])
• Ryan (on American ethos): “[America] is a created thing...based on these certain ideals which we have never fully lived up to. But that is what it is.” ([67:35])

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Section Timestamps

• Introduction, episode preview: [02:22] – [04:23]
• Rob Reiner murder, personal impact: [05:45] – [10:35]
• Trump’s reaction/breakthrough backlash: [14:13] – [28:12]
• Brown University shooting, FBI failures: [40:10] – [51:49]
• Islamophobia/expulsion rhetoric: [53:59] – [65:20]
• Identity/race/anti-immigrant rhetoric: [65:20] – [74:22]
• Wrap-up on racial politics/American ideals: [74:22] – [76:41]

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Takeaways

• The episode’s main thread is political and cultural “breaking points” – moments that force even entrenched partisans to reevaluate previously unwavering support, especially when a basic human decency norm is breached.
• Widespread negative reaction among Trump’s core voters to his politicized, insensitive reaction to the Reiner family tragedy may signal a shift in his impunity among Republicans.
• The confluence of public tragedy, incompetent institutional responses, and opportunistic bigotry reflects a turbulent moment in American political identity.
• Hosts argue that both MAGA and pro-Israel strategists, by embracing overt identity politics, unleash forces that ultimately threaten their own interests and social cohesion.

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For listeners:
This episode is a rich, highly emotional, and sharply analytical dive into the turbulent intersection of tragedy, leadership, political partisanship, and America's struggle over identity and decency. It’s essential listening for those trying to understand not just what happened this week, but the deeper rifts shaping U.S. politics—and why some “breaking points” still matter.

Transcript

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[Ryan Grim]

Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Ryan Grim]

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[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Ryan Grim]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] Good morning everybody. Happy Tuesday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have? Crystal?

[Krystal Ball]

Indeed we do. In fact, we're a little late getting started here because a bombshell just dropped from Vanity Fair with this interview with Susie Wiles. She is in all kinds of stuff. Donald Trump has the personality of an alcoholic. J.D. vance, the conspiracy theorist Elon Musk is on drugs. The the cases against his enemies are political. They are retribution. So we had to spend some time digesting that and inserting into the show. So we will get to that in the latter part of the show. A lot of other stuff to get to as well, though. More horrific details. The murder of Rob Reiner. His son has been arrested, possibly that he will be charged today. We also have Trump reacting to that in one of the ugliest ways you could possibly imagine and actually facing some MAGA backlash. We've got some, I guess you can't call it exclusive, but we've got some audio from Emily's radio show where Trump voters, three time Trump voters were calling in and saying they were disgusted by what he had to say about Rob Reiner. So kind of an interesting one that seems to have broken through to a lot of people, even his own voters. We also have some new details about the shooter, the killer at Brown University, although he remains on the loose. We have some new photos coming coming out. Also some new questions about how the FBI is handling that. We got some new reaction from Republicans just going full Islamophobia in the wake of that Bondi beach attack. We will tell you what they said and what they are up to. Their Fox News is launching their own war on Christmas in defense of tech oligarchs. You got to see that one to believe it. We are supposed to have a Republican health care vote tomorrow, but that appears to be kind of falling apart and isn't a whole lot there to start with. And of course, premiums are going to spike for millions of people at the end of the year. Cash Patel is doing an interview while there's Mass shooter on the loose talking about his girlfriend. So that's an interesting choice. We're going to talk about that aforementioned Susie Wiles interview and Juan David Rojas is going to join us to break down the presidential election in Chile. They just elected a far right leader and have a backlash against the left there a lot that's very interesting to dig into there. And no one better to do it than Juan.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, that's right. Ryan really wanted to get into it yesterday, but I had to shut him down. I was like, dude, the show is already too long. All right, so this is our consolation prize, Crystal, wherever that would be the.

[Krystal Ball]

Sort of thing he'd be dying to get into.

[Sophie Cunningham]

He was like, can I just fit it in here?

[Ryan Grim]

I was like, brother, we got so much here going. I was like, the show's already gonna go out late. So, Ryan, I apologize, my man. Thank you to everybody who's been signing up breakingpoints.com as Ryan said, it's a good Christmas gift if you want to, or perhaps a gift for yourself. And we've got some big plans, 2026, we've got so many primaries and elections. It's really gonna be a fun year. We've got some big stuff that is in the works. Additionally, thank you to everybody who's been subscribing on you to our channel. I know a lot of people were looking at their wrapped or their final year end and we were up there, so that's very, very cool to see. As well as from everybody from Spotify, Apple and podcasts. If you're listening to this on a podcast, please just send an episode to a friend or rate us 5 stars. It really helps people find the show. But let's go ahead and start with Rob Reiner. Not only the case, but Trump's comments on it, which for some reason that remain very mysterious to me, has broken through the cultural zeitgeist in a way that I never would have expected and actually does seem to be a fracture point for a lot of people, even who are very pro maga, which is fascinating to me considering all the things Trump has said in his career. Crystal. But this does seem to be much of a bigger event than I ever would have anticipated.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I agree, and we can talk about why that might be, but just want to start by updating on the case. And I just want to say off the top, since I wasn't on the show yesterday, I did know Rob Reiner a little bit. I mean, I wouldn't call him like a close friend or anything. But, you know, especially back when I was at msnbc, I would see him there. I was friendly with him, had lunch with him one time. The thing I remember most from the lunch with him is, first of all, I mean, he's this huge deal, you know, and I'm in comparatively like nothing in terms of my sort of like public Persona and awareness. And he was just so friendly and so, so familiar in like a really charming way. And I told you this story, Sagar, kind of just a small thing that I remembered, you know, after I was clearly done, he was like, that looks really good. Can I try it? And just started like, you know, like we were old friends, really casual, really friendly. And that's what you hear from everybody who knew him, is he was just, you know, however he felt about his politics. He was just a really genuinely nice person. And so, you know, it's quite a shock to the system to see someone brutally murdered like this him and his wife. And now that it appears very much like his own son, who has long struggled with drug addiction and mental illness, is the who who had been living with them off and on, was the one that took their lives. So let's go ahead and take a listen to the Los Angeles Police Department talking about the latest in the investigation.

[Ryan Grim]

Yesterday at 12, December 14, about 3:40 in the afternoon, LAPD responded to a residence, the residence of Rob and Michelle Reiner, located in West Los Angeles division. At that location, they found two deceased adults, a male and a female, through the night. Working with the coroner's office, they were able to identify them definitively as Rob and Michelle Reiner. We have our Robbery Homicide Division handling the investigation. They work throughout the night on this case and were able to take into custody Nick. Nick Reiner, a suspect in this case. He was subsequently booked for murder and is being held on $4 million bail. Pretty much that's what I can share at this point. But again, a very, very tragic incident.

[Krystal Ball]

And we're getting some more details from the L A Press and also from TMZ, which is also, I guess, L.A. press, about what happened in the days and hours leading up to this murder. Let's go and put a 2 up on the screen. So a number of source, including NBC News, also has this at this point. So Rob and his wife Michelle and Nick had all attended Conan o' Brien's holiday party. Apparently there are some people who are saying, you know, Nick was acting really strangely, that he was people very uncomfortable. And then you've got a lot of people say that there was some sort of an ugly shouting fight between Rob and his son Nick at that party. And this was just a day before they would ultimately be found murdered at their homes. Um, let's put a 3 up on the screen as well. So Nick apparently went missing for hours after the. The bodies of Rob and Michelle had been discovered. There's another report that when they went into his hotel room where he had been staying after, you know, he allegedly murdered Rob and Michelle, that there was blood all over the hotel room. I'm sure, you know, obviously the police will be sweeping that for any sort of forensic evidence. There's also a lot that's being written right now, Sagar, about just the tumultuous relationship and life of Nick. He apparently struggled with drug addiction from the time he was in his early teens. Like 14 years old was the first time that he was in rehab. He did some 18 different stints in rehab. And it ultimately it was Rob Reiner's daughter Romy, who discovered their bodies and also apparently told the police, my brother needs to be a suspect. He is dangerous. So, I mean, it's just beyond horrifying. You cannot imagine, you know, your own child taking your life like that. And the other thing I've been thinking about, Sager, this is the third person, the third man that I've known who has either been allegedly murdered or attempted to be murdered by their, you know, mentally ill, drug addicted child. And I'm sitting with that of like, what just how is this, how is this something that me, myself personally in my life, I'm aware of this happening, like know people personally, that this happened to three times. We have major, major issues in this country with addiction, with mental health, with, you know, getting people the help that they need and obviously resources were not an issue in this instance. But I don't know what to say other than how shocking and how utterly horrifying the whole story is.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, I don't know the situation, obviously, but from just what we read about the multiple stints in rehab and I mean, the thing is about Rob, what you could also see is it's a pure love for his son and his attempts, you know, to make movies with him and to elevate his own story and how he was trying to push his son in a good direction. And ultimately, I mean, even, you know, in the reporting that's come out, he brought him to Conan o' Brien's holiday party where this argument, you know, apparently came out because. And he even reached out, he said, I need to bring my son, I'm worried about him, you know, I need to keep an eye on him whenever I'm going out in public. So at the very least, like, you know, to the end, was always concerned about the well being of his own son. But it is shocking. I mean, like what you're saying, patricide itself. I mean, there were some. Somebody alerted me to this and I remember reading it once in a book and it was considered, you know, if you go back in time, one of the worst crimes that a person can commit. The Romans actually considered it like a special circumstance of crime which carried its very own punishment. It was like violating the very natural laws of the world of gods and of the way that they looked at it. And I think that's why it's not just shocking the conscience, but it also just begs the question, like, how does something like this happen? And what you're talking about there with, with drug addiction, you know, we can talk. I don't even wanna make macro points here about rehab or anything like that. Mental illness. Cause I don't think it's a time. I think, you know, even yesterday I was still kind of in shock. But as you sit over the next 24 hours and I was watching clips of Rob and talking about his wife and how he changed the ending when Harry Met Sally because he started to believe in love again, you're like, wow. And that's the thing, too. You're talking about Rob's politics. I mean, who cares about Rob's politics? The point is, is that. But for people like that, they create art, which is so deeply meaningful to so many different people in the world. And I think that's what hurt a lot of people about Donald Trump's response is because, guys, his politics alone, yes, he was famously, deeply political. Russiagate, all of that. South park famously did that episode about him and smoking. And that's fine. I mean, we could all laugh at that in jest, as part of, like, a more fulsome picture of who he was. But when you look at that run of, of directing, of the art that he put out into the world, like, how that touches you. And I feel this way about my favorite directors. I'm sure all of them disagree with me profoundly politically. But that doesn't make my appreciation for Paul Thomas Anderson or any of these other people who I hold in such high esteem any less. And I would be genuinely devastated if any of them died in the same way. So there's a human level, there's the way that he created something that so many millions, tens of hundreds of millions of people could connect to, became like seminal moments and parts of their childhood that ultimately, when people were grieving or were remembering him from across the political spectrum in general, most people, I would say, were like, oh, my gosh. Not only just the crime so horrific, but also just remembering their own connection, as you had there personally. And then you had Trump's response, which, again, is quite in character for Trump. And it's basically how he's reacted to many, many times over the years. For some reason, this one just. It seemed to break through the zeitgeist in a way that, again, I found very unexpected because Trump's been on the stage now for 10 years. It's not a surprise. If you asked me how he would have reacted, this is pretty much what I would have expected. Maybe not as explicit, you know, immediate in terms of his reaction, but, like, did you really think that, you know, he would be circumspect and respectful Necessarily in this moment. And yet, even though he met his own expectations of what many people found, this seemed to be a bridge too far, at least for many of his own supporters, which again, I find very interesting.

[Krystal Ball]

It is for sure. Let's go ahead and put Trump's truth up on the screen. We can read what he wrote. And then he doubled down on that yesterday, you know, on camera. I'll play that for you as well. But here's what he wrote. Initially, it says, a very sad thing happened last night in Hollywood. Rob Reiner, a tortured and struggling, but once very talented movie director and comedy star, has passed away together with his wife Michelle, reportedly due to the anger he caused others through his massive, unyielding and incurable affliction with a mind crippling disease known as Trump Derangement Syndrome, sometimes referred to as tds. He was known to have driven people crazy by his raging obsession with President Donald J. Trump. With his obvious paranoia reaching new heights as the Trump administration surpassed all goals and expectations of greatness. And with the golden age of America upon us, perhaps like never before, may Rob and Michelle rest in peace. So attributing his death, saying he died because he had Trump Derangement Syndrome. I mean, you wanna talk about something that is deranged, like, that is utterly deranged. He got asked about it yesterday and, you know, all he had to say is basically like, yeah, I didn't like the guy. Let's go ahead and take a listen. A number of Republicans have denounced your statement on Truth Social after the murder of Rob Reiner. Do you stand by that post?

[Cash Patel]

Well, I wasn't a fan of his at all. He was a deranged person as far as Trump is concerned. He said he liked, he knew it was false. In fact, it's the exact opposite that I was a friend of Russia, controlled by Russia. You know, it was the Russia hoax. He was one of the people behind it. I think he hurt himself in career wise, so he became like a deranged person. Trump derangement syndrome. So I was not a fan of Rob Reiner at all in any way, shape or form. I thought he was very bad for our country.

[Krystal Ball]

So, you know, not walking back at all saying, yeah, I, you know, I didn't like him. He had Trump Derangement syndrome. Not a fan. And I think a few things happened here in terms of the backlash to Trump's comments. Number one, you just had had a bunch of Republicans come out and say, like, look, when a liberal dies, we're not out here celebrating Like Jack Bosobic said that, for example, and then instantly Trump comes out with this just utterly disgusting comment. And then second of all, I mean, this is someone that truly, through the breadth of his catalog, has just had a direct impact on so many people's lives. And so between the two of those things, and also, since there is just zero really political valence to this, it's just a family tragedy. Yeah, people found it disgusting. You know, people have these, you know, they have parasocial relationships not just with, you know, modern social media influencers, but with the actors and directors and artists that they've known throughout their lives. Some of these, I mean, think about, like, Princess Bride, like, this is, you know, American canon, effectively. And so for Trump to come out with this utterly insane and really callous take, I don't know, it just, it apparently really disturbed people and really landed the wrong way with them.

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[Sophie Cunningham]

E I O this is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability, and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine.

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[Ryan Grim]

You and I follow politics day in and day out. I could probably think of 10 other things that Trump has said that are equally worse and, or like, more consequential. But what breaks through is always just what breaks through. And I guess it's just my job to try and kind of understand exactly why. And this just seemed to be one of them in one here. So Emily has been hosting her show over on Sirius XM with Megyn Kelly's operation. And obviously she takes a bunch of calls. And many of these calls, as you said, are multiple time Trump voters who are disgusted by that. This does not happen very often where people proactively, even people who are MAGA who cringe very often will just privately be like, oh, yeah, that was bad, but he did this, this and this. And so I'm not gonna express anything about it. To proactively go out of your way to call into a station to openly disagree, to say how terrible of a response. I mean, that just doesn't happen all that often. And she was kind enough to share some of the audio here with us. So let's take a listen, guys. Jill in Indiana, you're on the Megyn Kelly Wrap Up Show. What's on your mind this afternoon?

[Caller on Megyn Kelly Show]

Hi. Just sort of glomming on here, but it matters to me what Donald Trump said, and I'm deeply disappointed. If we value human life as Christians and Americans, then this stuff, there's just, it's indefensible to sort of gloat like right after someone dies like that, you know, just for having a difference of opinion. I'm very disappointed in President Trump. I voted for him three times. I still love him as my president. But it was wrong what he did. He should have just kept his mouth shut after the first paragraph. I don't know why he had to bring that up. It was a tragedy. And I didn't like Rob Reiner as a person. Politics. He was really, really sometimes very virulent what he was saying about the right, and particularly about Trump too, of course. However, I mean, it really hurts me to the core what happened to him. And I think as a human being, anyone has to be just sad about what happened and not bring politics into it. And Trump just doesn't know when to stop. I would just like to say that we have a God fearing president and he talks about the power of prayer and praying for victims and on and on and on. So let's act like that. President Trump, I voted for you. This is the most sacred season of the year. Turn the other cheek like Christ would. I will tell you that I've been a Republican my entire life.

[Ryan Grim]

I voted for Trump twice.

[Caller on Megyn Kelly Show]

I don't consider myself a MAGA Republican, but I do consider myself a conservative. And I think this comment that he made, this post reminds me a little bit of when Walter Cronkite made an announcement talking about the Vietnam War to the American people saying if we, you know, and Lyndon Johnson said if he, if I lost Walter, I've lost the country. I really think that Trump's comment has just officially put that nail in the coffin.

[Ryan Grim]

I just got to say, I mean we're not conducting a scientific poll here.

[Krystal Ball]

On the Mega Kelly wrap up show.

[Ryan Grim]

But the callers today, our phone lines have genuinely not lit up like this before. Yeah, I'm amazed by that. I mean you have multiple time Trump voter. I mean of course there's always the like I still like him as president but again I mean to call in is kind of shocking. I saw an interesting take from Sean Trendy over at Real Clear Politics. Curious for yours is one is that it's potentially just that this because of the love and circumstance around Reiner. Two though is Trump is a lame duck now and so because of that, you know, cause he can't run for reelection and now increasingly is just bumbling around in the White House and concerned more about the architectural projects or I don't know if you heard the latest one building an Arc de Triomphe here in Washington near the Arlington Cemetery. Like this is what consumes the vast majority of his mind share while occasionally dipping in and out to tweet about Rob Reiner that has given not a permission structure but people can just be a little bit more honest about what they think maybe. And it's that dynamic. I don't really know what it is. The Biden element as well kind of aging and you know, in front of all of our eyes the unpopularity. But something has changed at least in my opinion around this. Again, I have never seen anything like this. I really have. Not from a public way where Fox News personalities and others are like wow, like this is so horrific and disgusting to the normal. I mean more importantly the callers there that's what matters is that this came through in a way and I do think it has a very political valence to it. Even though I don't wanna make Reiner's death in any way political. I'm talking here specifically about the way that Donald Trump reacted to it.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, completely. And yeah, I mean, I listened to all those calls in that particular section of Emily's shows. There was one who said, look, I don't see anything wrong with it. All of the other ones were, this is disgusting. I'm really disappointed. I'm a three time Trump voter. I mean that's, that's what it was. And Emily told us she flagged for us. She's like, guys, I have not had our phone lines this lit up over anything ever. Like it really seems to have touched a nerve. And of course she said, and this is true, not a scientific survey, but you do see on the right, in addition to, you know, that backlash from the base. Yeah. I noted Jesse Waters, who is very incendiary person, very loyal to the president, et cetera. He had actor James woods on his show yesterday, Conservative, who said, I loved Rob. Rob rescued my career. Like people would ask me, how can you be friends with this person who's so different from you? He's like, listen, those are just political differences. I'm thinking about what this man meant to me in my life. Laura Ingraham posted an interview that she had done with Rob Reiner where she said, I ran into him and we had a very amicable, you know, friendly exchange where we, we don't agree on things. But it was a fine conversation and he immediately agreed to come in studio and sit down with me and do an interview. So I found that noteworthy too, that, that those Fox News personalities were approaching things in that manner. And you know, I think there's something to what you're saying here. Sorry, we put a 10 up on the screen. This is some polling that came out from NBC News where Trump's strong approval with his base has fallen. Oh, sorry, this is. So I'll throw it to it in just a second. And even though there's still overwhelming support for him among Republicans, you have a little bit of erosion and then you specifically have erosion between, you know, the story of Trump and his superpowers always been he may not have majority support, but man, his people are ride or die and they frickin love the guy. That has really eroded. So when you couple together all these factors, you've got, number one, you just had the Charlie Kirk assassination and Republicans who hated the Way people on the left who were critical of Charlie right after he was dead, they found that horrible. I mean, hundreds of people got fired for comments they made about Charlie Kirk. Even comments that weren't like celebrating his death, but were just saying, hey, here's what he said in life and I don't like the legacy that he stood for. And so you just had that whole moment on the right. You had a number of people in Campo A9. This is Jack Bosobic up on the screen, a number of right wing influencers who before Trump comes down is saying, see how much morally, how morally superior we are. You won't see people on the right celebrating the horrific murder of Rob Reiner and his wife. Compare that to the left's reaction to Charlie Kirk's murder. And of course, after that, Trump comes in and says this thing. Jack is still coping over this, but whatever. So you have that dynamic. You have Rob Reiner being this just well known figure that had all of this sort of cultural relevance to people in their own lives and really meant something to them. And then you have Trump lame duck people already dissatisfied with a lot of things in his administration. One of the callers on Emily's show said it's not like things are going that well. And then for him to say this, it was just like horrible. So let's go ahead and take a listen to a 10. This is Harry Entin breaking down some.

[Ryan Grim]

Of that polling strongly approve of Donald Trump. Okay, this is 2024 Trump voters. In March it was 66%. Look at where we are now. It's just 50% of 2024 Trump voters strongly approve of him. Look, Trump voters still like Donald Trump, but they don't love him as much. And that means there's a permission structure to actually go against him. And that is exactly what you saw.

[Krystal Ball]

In Indiana and Sagar. The other thing that poll showed is that they ask people, Republicans, do you identify more as a MAGA Republican or more as a traditional Republican? Throughout the Trump era, the consistent trend has been you have vastly more Republicans who identify as MAGA Republicans. Those numbers also shifted dramatically where I'm not sure if it was quite a majority yet, but it was basically 50, 50 between people in the Republican Party who said I'm a MAGA Republican and who said I'm a traditional Republican. And that in and of itself is a huge political sh. In people's political identities.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, I think, I mean, I've hammered that home, haven't I? Talking just about, I'm like, yeah, you may lose maga, but that's not who voted for you in the election. That's not how you win a popular vote. I do think to that straight comment about things not going so well, it kind of says everything. You know, people are very understated in the way nobody necessarily has a totally coherent political ideology. It's very rare for people to think deeply about politics. They generally just observe external conditions, either through media, their own life, kind of fuse those together and that's how they just feel in the moment. Right. And that's how people can have so many contradictory beliefs. But I have to believe that the material way that things are going in combination with Reiner, I mean, let's also think back to a court case that Maga made in 2024. A core belief was, I could sure use some mean tweets right now. And the thesis behind that was that these Reiner esque comments are fine as long as other things in the country and my own life are going fine. Now, when you have it, when things are not fine, that's when you start to notice a whole lot of different things. Right. And I think that's what it ultimately comes down to. So, for example, part of the reasons that Biden's gaffes or his age or any of that hit home so hard for people was that things were not going well under his administration. Like, we've had ailing and old presidents potentially even going senile. Right. In the past. But as long as you feel like things are going fine, you're like, yeah, whatever, right. You know, a lot of people, people can overlook anything. People can overlook Bill Clinton. He had a 60% approval rating whenever he left office, despite all the Lewinsky bullshit. Yeah, the S&P 500 was high. So the rich people were happy. And most people, their average income and all that had been going up for over eight years. And they say, yeah, whatever, okay, yeah, he lied about his affair with Monica Winski, so be it. That doesn't actually affect my life all that time. But and this is the reverse, is that when you have that dominating your life, politics, and you feel as if it's not just a distraction, but it's one that, I mean, look, no one has ever made the case that Donald Trump is a man of true moral character or in any way, not a narcissist. But there's something where at the end of the day, one of the core things about politics people have always pointed to is that metric about cares about people like me. And it's pretty obvious, like, Trump has never really cared about people like you. But a lot of people can think about that or rationalize that if they want to. In this moment, it becomes so obvious where 99.9% of the human population is like, my God, like, what a horrific. Just what a tragedy. Right? I mean, that's what most people would think. That's how most people would react. Then you combine that with, you know, the effect that this person's art has had on your life. Inspirational or, you know, I mean, look, it's sappy and all that, but, like, when Harry Mets, like, these are iconic movies. These are like, you know, you walk around New York or whatever and you're like, that's what you think. Maybe that's cringe, but that's what I did. That was my only connection to the city prior to being, you know, prior to being there. And so that was important. And so you have all those, like, little moments and then you see something like this where you're just like, who would do this? Who would do this? On top of Venezuela, Israel Epstein, and then the economy, the single and the most important one. So, yeah, I don't know, it broke.

[Krystal Ball]

The idea and the ballroom. I mean, that's how the things happened.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Yeah, we broke through, you're right.

[Krystal Ball]

We were surprised. Really broke through to people because it was such a symbol of, like, this is the shit you're focusing on. You're building out your multi hundred and one hundred million dollars ballroom and that's what you're paying attention to. While I can't afford groceries and we're headed into Christmas. Like, what is happening with this? But, you know, I mean, I think with Reiner too, like, Americans love their celebrities. That's a good big. Part of the reason why Trump is in the White House is because we do, we love our celebrities. And it's something I, I am, in a sense, I am a little bit. I could have seen Trump going in another direction because Trump does understand that relationship that Americans have to their celebrities. And so I could have seen him taking a different approach. But ultimately, you know, his instincts for if you're an enemy, you know, doesn't matter, alive, dead, whatever. Like, like, I'm. I'm never gonna be nice. I will never forgive, I will never forget. I will never, never be cordial. That is just not something that he will ever overcome. And actually, Susie Wells, we'll get to this later, had a little bit of something to say about that in this crazy interview that she gave to Vanity Fair.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, you're right. You know, I also Think that the Charlie Kirk thing can't be understated. Right. Because we did live through kind of a moment where people were like, hey, like, we need to have a set amount of discourse when somebody dies, even a controversial figure, somebody overtly political like Charlie Kirk, and there was literal state power, there was an entire ecosystem dedicated to enforcing this type of norm. And then immediately over 600 people got fired. Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

For Charlie Kirk commentary, I think some.

[Ryan Grim]

Of them deserve to be fired. I think that's fine. And it's one of those, though, where you can't hold that opinion and then also look at Trump's comment and not say anything. So there's also, I mean, that's only, what, 90 days? It hasn't been that long since he passed. It's only been a couple of months. So this is still fresh in a lot of people's memory. And, you know, you gotta remember, for people who aren't overtly, again, political, let's just say, like, kind of right leaning, ish. They found the Charlie Kirk thing horrifying for the murder, and I think some of them took it seriously. What people were saying were like, yeah, it's horrible. We shouldn't celebrate anybody's murder, anybody's death. And so then to explicitly then turn around and do it, you know, from the President of the United States himself, is shocking, I think, for anybody who took those types of ideas seriously. But I think finally, really what it is to me is Trump, the magic sauce, whatever it is that has held him together for 10 years. That old Donnie always wriggled his way out, and I think he will, you know, legally. I'm not saying that, you know, the walls are closing in or any of that. I just think his specter of untouchability is starting to fall apart. It's been that way for a couple months. But this one that, you know, it's stuff like this, watch. I always assumed, I go, look, people just don't care. I don't get it. Never will. Not my cup of tea, never has been for how somebody who can operate, you know, there at the highest level, I was like, but, you know, that that's me being out of touch. But maybe not. Maybe people are starting to kind of surface back to reality. Maybe it was just 10 years of madness, I don't know. But this very clearly has broken the paradigm.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, you and Ryan played a sot from him yesterday where he was talking about bringing the troops home from Syria. How'd that work out anyway? And it was from what, like 2018 and 2017, 20, 18. Somewhere in there I have the cap behind me now and, and I was like, wow, he looked so much more alive. His color was different. Like he, it really brought home for me just how much he has aged over the past number of years. And so, you know, I don't think that can be discounted here either. When you're talking about whatever his magic sauce is, he's kind of losing it. Yeah, he is, he is. I mean, the vigor is not there. The sense of where the American people are isn't there. You know, even maybe the, like, whether or not he cares what people think. He's not, he's, he's old. He is, you know, not going to be around forever. And you know, as you become older, you kind of, you lose your patience, you lose your self restraint. All of those things happen as people age. And so I think that's part of it too, is just like, you know, he's an old man and he's really starting to show it.

[Ryan Grim]

You might be right. You know, what did we always say? Under Biden, you revert to the mean. You know, you kind of revert to the mean of exactly who you are. And it's a stressful job. No matter what, you know, ornery. Even if you don't even work that hard, it's still hard. It's a difficult job. It's probably the hardest job in the world. And yeah, I don't know. Again, I fully don't know. I think this is one of the most interesting political moments just sociologically that I've seen in quite some time because I never see, you know, normal Trump voting women be like, I'm so disgusted by this. I never see that. It's always, I mean, come on, you've met these people too. In real life, it's always like, what about ism or the laughter and whatever.

[Krystal Ball]

Fine. Or like, I don't like it, I don't like it.

[Ryan Grim]

But.

[Krystal Ball]

There was no but with this. I mean, by and large it was like, I don't like it. Period, period, end of story. This is a major disappointment and he needs to do better.

[Ryan Grim]

I agree. I agree. So interesting in its own right.

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[Ryan Grim]

Turning now to the Brown University shooting and the hunt for the suspect after two students were tragically killed in circumstances that we still do not yet understand. Ryan and I covered the FBI's failures yesterday with the release of a so called person of interest. The name was leaked to the news media and it was a huge screw up by the FBI. Trump are now under fire by Cash Patel's handling of the case, defending Cash Patel and actually casting blame on the local police department. Let's take a listen.

[Krystal Ball]

Has Cash Patel told you why it's been so difficult for the FBI to identify who the shooter is?

[Cash Patel]

Well, oh, it's always difficult. So far we've done a very good job of doing it with Charlie with, you know, the various times this has happened, they've done it in pretty much record time. But you really have to ask the school a little bit more about that because you know, this was a school problem. They had their own guards, they had their own police, they had their own everything. But you'd have to ask that question really to the school, not to the FBI. We came in after the fact and the FBI will do a good job. But they came in after the fact.

[Ryan Grim]

Came through after the fact, casting blame there on the local officials. I mean, remember, look, I mean, I do think that the local officials haven't necessarily handled themselves the best here. But let's be very clear. The FBI is the one who screened that so called person of interest. They're the ones who touted it on social media as if it was some sort of victory. Now, speculation remains about who leaked the name of that individual who again, we are not going to say his name. This is a decorated U.S. army veteran, member of the honor guard, whose name was besmirched in the public life, dissected disgustingly, I would add, as a result of their handling. And by the way, just in case, I know we'll get to there in a bit, but the current director of the FBI has an interview airing today with his girlfriend about their love story and how they met on Katie Miller's podcast. Yes, I know it was probably filmed earlier, but I'm sorry, just not really what I think that the director of the FBI should ever be doing out there in public. I mean, it's disgusting, it's shocking. And I think that this does highlight just the sheer amount of incompetence within this bureau and its law enforcement and how, you know, they continue to tell us how these are the best and the brightest. And we are watching a shooter who has now escaped justice for more than 48 hours. Brown University, a campus which has now reportedly been papered in 800 cameras, Crystal very few clear photographs of the person of a suspect that have been released yet to the public. Here is that specific question being posed to local officials last night at a news conference. Let's take a listen. Brown University is the most camera ridden.

[Cash Patel]

Most.

[Ryan Grim]

Piece of real estate Rhode island. And yet there seems to be little or no video evidence outside of that clip. You know, respecting the investigation. Is there a lot more video that we're just not able to see yet because of the ongoing investigation or is there simply no video? So what we shared with you the other day is what we have that we could share and then we'll continue to. Again, we're continuing to collect evidence as we Speak. We have detectives out there, there trying to continue to find. So I don't want to tell you that there's no more video because we might find something within the next few minutes. So. So yes, it's possible, but what we gave you, this is what we have. We're giving way. What we have. What we have is not very much right now. Let's go and put the VO up here, guys, please, on the screen just to show you some of the video that's been released. I mean, this is, I'm sorry, like I can't really see anything here about what's going on of this suspect who is leaving campus. It appears we do have, I think, a little bit more that has been released there from the FBI and some images which we can put up here on the screen. Just a couple other images that were released here. Masked individual wearing a sweatshirt with a beanie. Kind of difficult to see any of the facial features. But you know, honestly, the video, the images that were released in the aftermath of Tyler Robinson of the Charlie Kirk assassination were much more clear and obviously led to his apprehension very quickly in the immediate aftermath. So there are some crazy questions here that are being asked here about the ability of law. What is the purpose of all of these 800 cameras and of Ring and of AI crime detection and all of that when we're days now after this shooting and there's still nothing yet been released, allegedly. Remember, these have, they have the most sophisticated technology for cell phones and for all of that. And ultimately they've got nothing. I mean, we've got video coming out from the scene, crystal of them, you know, like canvassing of different buildings that are nearby. But it does not look in any way like they are close to apprehending a subject. We hope that they are. If you do see something, if you recognize that person, call the FBI, call local police. We hope that you do and this person is brought to justice. But you can't help but just spotlight the failure of the FBI here. Two back to back high profile cases, total failure.

[Krystal Ball]

And to your point, I mean, if we're gonna live in the Palantir mass surveillance state, the least we could get out of it is some like, you know, effective crime fighting here.

[Ryan Grim]

Right?

[Krystal Ball]

I think that's the bare minimum we could ask for. And look, they're probably gonna find this guy. Probably there's someone out there who will see these images and you know, the, like he's a kind of a girthy guy. They'll recognize the body type, they'll Say, I've seen that guy, you know, with that particular fleece. Like this may trigger something for someone. That's what happened with Luigi Mangione. That's what happened with Tyler Robinson. So I think we will probably end up capturing this guy. But, yeah, to be this many hours later and still have so little to go on. And then to go back to what Trump was saying there, first of all, it sounded like he was blaming, like, not even the local pd, like the campus security, like they're the ones who are supposed to be doing some, like, national or international manhunt. Preposterous. Second of all, the FBI was perfectly happy to wrap their arms around this and claim that this was all their victories when they thought that they had the killer in custody. And now that the whole thing is a shambles, suddenly it's the local PD's fault. I mean, it's just total incompetence. Completely shambolic. How many times have we had these situations unfold? Or with the shooting of the National Guardsmen in dc, Remember, Cash came as. We have a suspect. No, we're looking for the suspect. We're looking for the suspect. No, you actually have that one. That one you actually have. It's embarrassing. And then you couple. On top of that, apparently what he's spending his time doing is sitting down for this interview with Stephen Miller's wife to talk about his love life. Like, what is going on? And you know, of course, Cash's image already has been completely destroyed by his handling and being the public face of the Epstein files, cover up. So just, you know, really covering himself in glory here.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, I look again, the girlfriend interview. Can you imagine J. Edgar Hoover sitting down for an interview in the middle of, I don't know, the Kennedys or the hunt for. Who's the bank robber? John Dillinger. And he's like, let me tell you about my. Well, I mean, secretly.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, there's a. There were a lot of. There was a lot of interest in his love.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, yeah. I mean, listen, I mean, maybe, maybe it was true, but just imagine him sitting down or Robert Mueller, Right, Robert Mueller sitting down for an interview about his Catholic relationship or something.

[Krystal Ball]

Christopher Wray. I mean, they ended up hating him. Right. Can you imagine the way MAGA would have melted down if he was out there? I mean, he should have melted as he married, like, about his love life, when he met his wife or whatever.

[Ryan Grim]

Like, it's not about maga. It's like, we should melt down. This is crazy. This is craziness.

[Krystal Ball]

Ridiculous.

[Ryan Grim]

I can't I can't live like this.

[Krystal Ball]

And he's, of course, using all these public resources to fly around to her, like singing at the wrestling event and whatever. And it's just, just unreal. And I do wonder, you know, I feel like every time Cash gets liberal press criticism, it helps to keep him in the job longer. I think you're right. But I have to think Trump is, to the extent Trump cares about anything at this point, I have to think he's looking at this guy and going like, I don't, I don't know. And you were saying, oh, I think we have this actually put B5 up on the screen. I guess Bongino is back to angsting over whether or not he's going to stay in his job. This is from Fox News. Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino will decide about his future at the bureau in the next few weeks. He's already been sort of sidelined because I don't know if you guys remember, he already had one of these, like, I'm going to just leave for the weekend, decide what my future is going to be. So he's already been kind of like sidelined and sort of replaced by someone else in his position. Of course, he still technically has the job. So, anyway, we're back to, back to angsting about Dan Bongino and what his, what his future path is going to look like.

[Ryan Grim]

Look, I'm making fun of some of this, but this is not a joke, right? You know, two people lost their lives. Let's go up here on the screen, you have two students. I mean, these kids were in the prime of their lives, 19, 20 years old. You have Ella Cook, and I hope I say this correctly, Mohammed Aziz Umar Zakov, identified as the two killed in Brown University. Apparently, you know, at least one of them, they were in a class they weren't even necessarily supposed to be in. Just, you know, two students. They had big dreams. One, I think Ella, you know, she was involved in Republican politics. Mohamed Aziz, he, you know, wanted to be a doctor. You know, look, this is Brown University. It's one of the toughest universities in the United States to get into. They really, you know, they were, they were going places, at least that's what the people around them said. And that is why we're supposed to not have FBI directors who go on podcasts to talk about their love life. This is serious business. This is something that you've been entrusted by the public to take seriously and to do. We've given you extraordinary powers. You're supposed to work on our behalf. You're supposed to keep us safe. And when people perpetuate, you know, horrific crimes like this, you're supposed to catch them. You're supposed to catch them immediately. And it's not about tweeting out pictures about how great of a person of interest. It's about doing the job, bringing a prosecution and bringing justice. Because there's a couple families out there who are broken. And so that's what I think makes me really sick about this entire thing, is that, you know, this has consequences. And it's funny to laugh at the girlfriend podcast and all of that, and the clear obsession over public image and the damage that the Epstein files handling and all of that has had, but it's just like the Epstein case. It's not just a case that we're talking about. These are little girls who were victimized, right, you know, by wealthy, powerful people. And it was used potentially on behalf of state actors. But ultimately they're the real victims, right? So, yeah, I feel repulsed, honestly about this, because you've got these two families probably desperately checking the news, just want to know what happened. The worst possible thing just happened to them.

[Krystal Ball]

And how many more who were injured, who are in the hospital right now, how many more psychologically traumatized. And meanwhile you have, you know, an entire school community, an entire town that's like, am I safe here? There's a mass shooter who is still on the loose, and they have no idea where this person is. And meanwhile, you know, the President of the United States is saying, that's not really our problem. And Cash Patel is doing sit downs about his girlfriend and his love life. You just, I mean, you just can't make it up. You cannot have influencers in like, these positions of power. It's utterly, utterly insane.

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[Krystal Ball]

We also wanted to talk a little bit about the some Republican response to the attack at Bondi beach in Australia. Another just, just horrifying absolute tragedy unfolding there. The number of victims, you know, people there to celebrate Hanukkah, just absolutely horrific. And the response to that from some on the right has been just, I mean, I don't even know what to say. I can put this up on the screen. Tommy Tuberville, senator from Alabama, gave a whole floor speech about how Muslims are terrible and evil just en masse. Not individual people with radical ideology, not all Muslims. He says. Islam is not a religion, it's a cult. Islamists are not here to assimilate, they're here to conquer. Stop worrying about offending the pearl clutchers. We've got to send them home now or it'll become the United Caliphate of America. We also have Vicki Paladino who is a councilwoman. She represents Staten island in New York. And she says, and keep in mind, New York, a city with millions of Muslims, including now the mayor elect of the city, she says, says we're in the midst of a global jihad the likes of which the world has never seen and we cannot ignore it. We need to take very seriously the need to begin the expulsion of Muslims from Western nations or at the very least the severe sanction of them within Western borders. The administration needs to begin developing a formal legal framework for the denaturalization process and get it over with before we end up with another 911 or worse. Enough is enough. Now, I do think that she ended up deleting that tweet. But then of course, we've got Randy Fine, who, you know, always covering himself in glory. So more just disgusting commentary from him saying that, you know, all Muslims must go, diversity is not our strength. And 911 wasn't enough. October 7th wasn't enough. Muslim immigrants are attacking and killing non Muslims in America wasn't enough. So remember Sagar, how. How Rashida Tlaib was censured for just saying in the context of Palestinian liberation, from the river to the sea, Palestine must be free. And she was censured by Congress. Now you have people who are out and out calling for the expulsion of all Muslims, whether they're immigrant or non, who are completely demonizing an entire religion. And there's very, very little pushback here. But the most important thing that I wanted to highlight so that people understand what's going on side of just being thoroughly disgusted by this open bigotry and how much this is just accepted now in the Republican Party and in the mainstream is Ryan and Dropsite covered how the Israelis had done a bunch of testing about like, okay, what do we do to get people back on our side? And the thing that they found was the most powerful was to stoke anti Muslim hate, to stoke Islamophobia. And so this is a sort of desperate. I see it as a desperate and concerted strategy to try to get Republicans in particular back on board with Israel being our great ally. And, you know, we've all got to like link arms and fight the bad, the bad Muslims together. That's what this is really at its core about. I mean, at its core it's about hatred and bigotry and all of those things. But this is also sort of a desperate strategy to get people to stay in line with Israel being on our side and, you know, and us sharing the same enemies. So we've got to support them no matter what and give them whatever they want no matter what.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. I mean, by the way, you don't even just need drop shout out to drop side.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm not.

[Ryan Grim]

They didn't do anything wrong. But, you know, read the Charlie Kirk letter that he sent to Benjamin Netanyahu. It was released for everyone to see. He's like, you guys are losing support. The way to combat that is to demonize Islam. Charlie was doing a lot of that right before he died. I took notice of it. And because I know what's going on, you could see very clearly in what direction. And I've talked about this. It's interesting to me. They genuinely seem to believe that you are allowed to group in the actions of a few individuals and decide that that is representative of the entire ethnic religious faith and that thus that will never backfire on you. Even though that is literally the heart and soul of their cause that they've decided to fight with everything they have. Anti Semitism. I have no idea how you cannot think that openly normalizing this type of rhetoric and framework of looking at the world is not going to come back and bite you in the ass. We talked about this during the whole Nick Fuentes, Pierce Morgan thing.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

Nick is very honest actually about that worldview and how he can then apply it to Jewish Americans or to Jews more broadly. But they seem to think that you can have it both ways. You actually cannot if you're going to let this out in terms of Pandora's box. And that's honestly why I find so disgusting about it. Because you know, you say it's about hatred and bigotry. It's like, you know, I don't even. I think they're so cynical that they're just willing to say anything, you know, to defend their pro Israel cause. I'm not even sure if they really believe this stuff. It's really just.

[Krystal Ball]

I think Randy Fine probably does.

[Ryan Grim]

Randy probably does. Tommy Tuberville, many of the other so called influencers and others are just looking at the memo of this. Yeah, I don't think so. And I mean, look, I'll happily talk culture with anybody any time of the week, but I can't sit here and then pretend, you know, cause I can't sit here when I know that this is in the service of a support of a country which has a right to rape protest. I can't. Right, Because I'm like, you guys literally had protests about the right to rape. You have openly a government which wants to celebrates the murder of women and of children and of max expulsion of a population. There is no moral equivalence or there is no, sorry, there is no like moral superiority that if, if anything right now, Right. Things are trending a little bit in the other direction in terms of who has power and actualizes it, let's say on, on the world stage. So I don't know. I mean that, that's my personal view of this and I do just think it's really gross how cynical and how open it is out there. And ultimately, you know, for, for, for Jewish Americans, I think this is just the worst thing that you could do. I really do. It's like, if you guys want to engage in this, you are not going to win. People are going to start thinking explicitly in ethno religious terms. And, you know, they talk. Noticing is something that's like a meme right out there. They apply that to Muslims. I'm like, okay, fine, then, you know, you guys really want to, quote, notice about support for Israel and about lobbying and about pushing, you know, certain agendas when you're in power. Like, it's just not going to work out for you.

[Caller on Megyn Kelly Show]

You.

[Ryan Grim]

I choose to look at the world in terms of individuals. I think you should too. And allegedly that's a promise of America, but they don't want that. And yeah, I think this will. I think this is a catastrophic mistake for the Jewish community and for Jewish Americans. But that's what they've decided to push. At the very least, the pro Israel part, a contingent, let's say. And yeah, I think they're going to rue the day that they wanted to normalize this type of rhetoric.

[Krystal Ball]

I keep thinking back to Laura Loomer, who, you know, describes herself as proud Islamophobe and certainly backs that up in all sorts of ways, going back and forth with someone on Twitter and she says to them, you're a Muslim, and they come back with, you're a Jew. And.

[Ryan Grim]

Exactly.

[Krystal Ball]

Basically the, you know, and so basically what the Zionists, like the right wing pro Israel supporters and Israeli officials themselves are hoping is that they can win that debate, that they can come out on top and convince people that it is worse to be a Muslim than it is to be a Jew. But buying into, because, I mean, Israel is. It is an ethno nationalist Jewish supremacist state. That is the bedrock political ideology undergirding the entire project. That's why you have apartheid, that's why you have ethnic cleansing. That's why you have all these concerns about the demographics and that as some existential threat. So that is their view. They have a fundamentally ethno nationalist and ethnocentric racialist view. And so their bet is we can convince at least the American right. I think they've given up on the left, but we can at least convince the American right that the Muslims are worse than the Jews and therefore you gotta stick with us. That's the bet they're making. Good luck. Good luck with that. Good luck with embracing an overtly racialist, identitarian worldview and not thinking that that is ultimately going to come for Jewish people. I think it's a horror. And I mean, we've seen throughout history like what people reach for, like the old horrors that people reach for with regard to Jewish people when you have these overtly racialist, identitarian projects. So in any case, that's what's going on with the Republicans. And I do wanna say too, where all these media figures, Jake Tapper and Dana Bash and whoever else who had absolute multi day meltdowns over Rashida Tlaib, embracing equal rights from everyone and you know, doing rally chants and now have very little to say about Randy Fine and Tommy Tuberville and Vicki Palladino. Like, we see you, we see you, we see what's going on here.

[Ryan Grim]

Interesting. Yeah, I mean, what's. Look, this is. There was a core project about rejecting identity politics right. Throughout the entire last decade. And I think a lot of people good faith believe that. I certainly did. I was like, yeah, I was like, wow, this is really horrible. Like, this is bad. It's leading. You might not have seen this. We may wanna cover it on Thursday. There's a viral essay in a magazine compact which Juan writes for. And it's about this explicit regime within a lot of elite companies over the last decade or so, 15 years, where they decided to explicitly say, let's not hire millennial young white men. The essay has gone very viral. It's actually very selective and interesting. Cause like boomer white men got to keep their jobs. But it was much more directed. But like you look at how much rage that can inspire. I think not only the people who were discriminated, let's say against themselves, but to what mindset and what ends that that can bring. And these people seem to just think that they're going to win this like immediate term war where they're just going to convince people that only Muslims, let's say, are dangerous, look out for their own agenda and have, you know, dual loyalties or any. Again, okay. I mean, you cannot put that cat back in the bag, period. Whenever it becomes an outright view of explicitly looking at things like in terms. I mean, I saw recently, I don't forget exactly who it was, was like, what's wrong with the whites only immigration policy? It's like, okay, I know it's one of those where then you cannot complain.

[Krystal Ball]

It was Matt Walsh. It was Matt Walsh. So he was saying about how Australia had a whites only immigration policy and that it's a shame that they got. And they got rid of it because they didn't want to appear racist. No, that actually racist and that they should go back to it.

[Ryan Grim]

So let's then let's do to the logic. So if you lose then, and you're an opponent and you lose and a opposing government decides to make an overtly racial view of immigration, how can you complain? How can you possibly complain and say, yeah, we are going to. Right. What are you gonna do about it? We beat you. We've decided to go in a different direction. You can't bitch and complain about that. You can't.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

By the way, Australia had, you know, I'm not great fan of Australia. I think the way they handled Covid was a disaster or et cetera. I have my disagreements with the government, all of that. I think they're one of the best immigration systems in the world. They have one of the high. They have high merit based immigration for a long period of time, significant amounts of assimilation. If our country looked more like Australia, I'd be a hell of a lot happier. But of course there's like this. They're like, well, it's just not why I'm like, well, okay, if that's the world that you guys all want to live in, well then don't be surprised. Wouldn't that also just be not just used against you? You know, they talk about, you know, white genocide or, or anything like that. It's like, yeah, but people might just end up embracing that fully. And you can't complain because the entire theory, let's say around high merit based immigration or any of that, was we evaluate people as individuals. And Australia explicitly said we evaluate people as individuals and their ability to contribute to our nation, to our culture and to make us better. And that's actually why they've had more of a successful immigration story than any western country in the world. And that's why when I saw that, I was shocked by it. Because, you know, first of all, extrapolating a single incident is always a little bit ridiculous. You're supposed to look at things in the aggregate and more broadly and listen, it's up to Australians to make their own decisions. It's not my country. You guys do as you would like. Purely as an outside observer, though, anytime you start to make overtly racial arguments, I just think, first of all, don't be surprised when it's used against you. And second, you need to consider the 30th, 40th, 50th, order consequences of what all of that is going to look like. And I don't think that they are. I think that they just have no idea what they're playing with.

[Krystal Ball]

It's also just like a LARP and a fucking fantasy. Like we live in a multi ethnic country and that just is. And it is a bedrock part of what America is, that it's not this like blood and soil project. It is a created thing. Like we came here, we colonized it, we created it based on these, you know, certain ideals which we have never fully lived up to. But that is what it is. And I was thinking about this Sagar, like you're from Texas. Texas is a majority minority state. Does it feel like it's not American? Does it feel like it's been, you know, destroyed? In fact, it still votes very conservatively and the, you know, populations that are there are, you know, very integrated into American society, etc. I just, you know, it's disgusting and it's cruel and it leads to horrific things. So I don't want to downplay it, but I also want to say like, you're not getting your, you know, whites only country. That's it's not happening. You're not getting your repeal the 19th amendment because we don't like the way the women are voting. It's not happening. It's childish to pretend that this is like a real outcome that you're going to be able to effectuate. So in any case, long way of.

[Ryan Grim]

Saying I'm looking now at Texas. I didn't realize actually that it has fully flipped. So it's 40% Latino, 40% non Hispanic, white. Such a funny term. 12% black and 5 to 6% Asian. 1% Native American and then 3%.

[Krystal Ball]

It was like 60%. Yeah, I mean I remember 60% minority.

[Ryan Grim]

I remember, you know, I was growing up there.

[Krystal Ball]

It's fine guys.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, I knew a lot of guys who are. But, but see that's kind of. My point is that looking at things over overtly racially is gross. Like that's not the point actually about it at all. And that's fine. People want to do that. Again, I don't think it's gonna work out for you and I don't think it's necessarily correct. It's also just the way that you try to back engineer like greatness and let's say officially tied, let's say to racialism is not one, which first of all, like you just said you're gonna get the outcomes that you want us explicitly because a lot of it is just like larping. But two also really ignores. I mean this you know, we were talking about this, remember of the Fuentes Pierce thing. I'm like, yeah, it would be insane to go back and to tell real heritage Americans that some of the vanguard of their cause would be Italian Catholics. That would be unthinkable, literally unthinkable. They would be like, first of all, that person's not white and they're godless. That's how they used to think about. In fact, I would remind everyone, when real heritage Americans got the chance to enforce immigration policy and to vote in election, they explicitly rejected a guy named Al Smith because he was a Catholic. And there were cartoons about Romanism across the entire country. And they shut down immigration for like 45 years because they were sick of a bunch of, in their words, non white Irish and Italians and Slovenians coming into the country and dirtying it up. That's what they thought about them.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right.

[Ryan Grim]

So I'm like, I mean, it's just ridiculous to see people who are the descendants of those people then claim, you know, I mean, it's fine. Look, you can say your ancestors have been here long, that's fine. You can say that, you know, longer than me. I don't necessarily think caste and bloodlines should be one that we should determine our tier in society. In fact, I'm sorry I'm going long, but I feel strongly about this because my family is from a culture of India, right. And Indian culture is heavily. They don't wanna admit it, but it's true, is heavily caste based, which is not something that you can control. The most old world bullshit in the world is the idea that because of who your grandfather was or what you were born into should determine the fate of your entire life. Right? That's almost an explicitly Western and American thing, which we say you leave that behind, you come here and you embrace a certain set of ideals. I think that's great. You know, I really do. If anything, a lot of my criticism of some of the Indians here now currently is that they're not leaving a lot of that bullshit behind. And I think that they should. But yeah, I just, you know, to see it re normalized more recently in an American context, which I have, you know, it's like, oh, my family's been here for four generations. I think that's phenomenal. I have a great veneration for, for all of our history. And you know, venerating that is fine. But you know, then to tier in terms of what that means explicitly for like who counts or not, you're like, well, and especially when we're talking about only citizens here, not even just people who are. If we're talking. Not when we're talking about non citizens, we're talking about people who are explicit citizens of the United States of America. Yeah, I mean, that just seems to me, you know, people, these are the biggest critics of third worldism. That's the most third world bullshit that you can ever do. It really is.

[Krystal Ball]

Great point. Great fucking point.

[Ryan Grim]

And I tell you this as someone whose parents are from the third world, when I go over there and you see the cast, oh my God, it drives me nuts. Nuts when people talk about cast and who's marrying who and oh, that's violated. Oh my God, it repulses me. Repulses me. And so that's the last thing that we need over over here. Very antiquated old world ideology which. But again, doesn't breed. You know, white nationalists love to talk about India's, you know, all its failed problems. I blame that. That's a big part of the reason why is the explicit class culture. Same in the uk. They have huge class problems about ascendancy and the ability to do it. Let's leave it all behind, people. But that's just one man's vision of the world.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I was thinking, I responded, I was kind of trolling, but I mean, I meant what I said, but I was also kind of being intentionally provocative. On Twitter, someone shared this, like, oh, what, whites were 80% in 1920 and are this percent now and blah blah, blah. And I was thinking about that. I was like, what does that even mean? Because the definition of white is not even the same over those years. Like in my own household in 1920, I am literally the only person in my household that would be considered white. So, like, so much of this is just meaningless garbage anyway. But in any case, obviously it has never. Who's leading a bunch of this bullshit? Like, when his family came over here, they were not considered white as they were Jewish refugees from what is now Belarus. And yet you think that this should be some blood and soil white ethno nationalist. You're leading this whites only refugee policy anyway. I find it disgusting. I find it counterproductive. I find it fundamentally anti American. And I also think that is a project doomed to fail. And these people have convinced themselves that the American people agree with them. And I think that that is wrong. In fact, I think, I think to your point, Sagar, what we saw in the backlash to WOKE and the identitarian excesses of the left is proof that the American People really do believe in aspiring to that colorblind vision at core. They like that idea and that concept of blackness.

[Ryan Grim]

I think so too. Yeah. I mean, if anything, overtly, kind of embracing any of this is the worst possible argument you could ever make make about at least again, just one man's opinion. But I've taken a look at a lot of the polling and I've thought a lot about what went wrong with immigration agenda here of the Trump administration. And I do genuinely think that so many people thought about a universalist language of control, about their border, and about a very idea of we need to know who's in our country. It does seem unfair. Again, in my opinion, you can disagree that people get to come here illegally and just work and just decide that they get to stay here. I think that's wrong. I think a lot of people agreed with that. However. However. And this is what people don't seem to understand when you enact it in a way which has been described as performative cruelty, which probably hits it a little bit on the nose, but when you also pair it, let's say, with racial language, which is now increasingly popular, not just from the government necessarily, but from a lot of the commentary, and it becomes to be viewed as that way, that is not the same as the universalist kind of idea of control which led many Latino Americans, Asian Americans. You know, this is one of the most non white Republican coalitions in American history, which I think Lib should sit with. Right. About what that means also about who can and come in with that. But it can also be something that falls apart whenever it's enacted or at least viewed necessarily in this way. So I know we went very off track and I'm sorry. But I do think it's important, I do think it's important for people to kind of understand the broader motivations about all this topic of Islam. And I'm not some big defender of Islamic culture. I don't want it, don't like it, lived underneath it, hated it. But I'm also not a dupe to see what this. Exactly. This is being used for right now. And that's why I would say everybody's eyes should be a little bit open right now.

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[Ryan Grim]

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[Ryan Grim]

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