12/18/24: Trump Says RFK Not Radical, Bibi Parades In Syria, NYT Hoax, Shock CEO Assassination Poll, Ukraine Moscow Assassination,

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – Episode Released December 18, 2024

Hosts: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Podcast Network: iHeartPodcasts
Episode Title: Trump Says RFK Not Radical, Bibi Parades In Syria, NYT Hoax, Shock CEO Assassination Poll, Ukraine Moscow Assassination

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1. Personal Update and Apologies (00:00 - 02:32)

Ryan Grim begins the episode with a heartfelt personal update, apologizing for the delayed release of the show. He shares that his wife has been diagnosed with breast cancer and expresses gratitude for the advances in treatment. Grim mentions that this will be their last show before taking a break for the Christmas and New Year’s holidays.

Ryan Grim (01:57): "About two weeks ago, my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. She’s already getting treatment, and we’re very confident this is something we’ll overcome."

2. Introduction to Current Topics (02:32 - 05:23)

Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti set the stage for the episode, outlining the key issues they will cover:

• Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.) potentially becoming Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS).
• Ongoing efforts to broker a ceasefire in Gaza.
• Criticism of The New York Times' reporting on Hamas documents.
• The indictment of Luigi Mangione for the assassination of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.
• Updates on Ukraine and Moscow-related incidents.

3. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and HHS Confirmation (05:23 - 18:37)

The hosts delve into RFK Jr.'s recent activities on Capitol Hill and his potential confirmation as Secretary of HHS. They discuss his stance on vaccines and his pro-life positions, which have garnered support from Republican senators.

Ryan Grim (05:50): "RFK Jr. is expected to be pressed on his views on vaccines. He said, 'I have real doubts about whether those are authentic documents or not,' referring to the NYT's reliance on Hamas sources."

Key Points:

• Pro-Vaccine Stance: Despite criticisms, RFK Jr. emphasizes providing information for personal decision-making regarding vaccines.

  Ryan Grim (06:16): "If you listen to what he says, he is pro-vaccine. He wants to give you information so you can decide what you put into your body or your child's body."

• Abortion Policies: RFK Jr. has committed to reinstating the Mexico City policy, limiting taxpayer funding for abortions both internationally and domestically. This has appeased pro-life groups within the Republican Senate.

  Krystal Ball (09:01): "He committed to reinstating the Mexico City policy, which means essentially no taxpayer funding for Planned Parenthood."

• Senator Tuberville's Support: After meetings with RFK Jr., Senator Tuberville expressed confidence in RFK Jr.'s ability to lead HHS responsibly.

  Krystal Ball (08:34): "Tuberville is using the line that he thinks RFK Jr. is going to follow the science."

• Potential Impact: The hosts speculate on how RFK Jr.'s confirmation could lead to significant changes in HHS, particularly concerning public health policies and abortion funding.

  Krystal Ball (16:22): "RFK Jr. could do a little bit of what Parenti talks about, which is terrifying to those who benefit from USAID and other federal funds."

4. Ceasefire Efforts in Gaza (20:53 - 24:58)

The discussion shifts to the fragile ceasefire negotiations in Gaza. Ryan Grim critiques Prime Minister Netanyahu’s approach, suggesting he may delay the ceasefire until just before the new Biden administration takes office.

Ryan Grim (22:32): "I suspect Netanyahu will continue to drag this out until January 20th."

Key Points:

• Current Deal Contours: The proposed ceasefire includes allowing Israeli troops to remain in Gaza with a path for future withdrawal and exchanging vulnerable hostages for several hundred Palestinian hostages.

  Ryan Grim (23:19): "The current deal includes huge concessions from Hamas, mainly that Israeli troops wouldn’t have to withdraw immediately from Gaza."

• Saudi Arabia’s Role: Saudi Arabia is involved in financing Gaza's reconstruction and has adjusted its demands from full Israeli recognition of a Palestinian state to supporting a future path towards one.

• Skepticism on Implementation: The hosts express doubt about the deal's longevity, citing ongoing assaults on hospitals and the potential for Netanyahu to continue military actions.

  Krystal Ball (24:22): "Netanyahu was supposed to be in Doha, but he wasn’t. Instead, he was seen in the Golan Heights, addressing the public in Hebrew."

5. The New York Times and Hamas Documents Hoax (29:05 - 39:36)

A critical segment focuses on The New York Times' reporting on Hamas documents allegedly provided by Israel. The hosts argue that these documents lack authenticity and highlight the Times' failure to verify sources adequately.

Ryan Grim (34:04): "The New York Times' handling of these documents is embarrassing. They ran major stories based on fabricated documents, leading to tragic consequences."

Key Points:

• First Incident – Iran Documents: The New York Times published stories based on documents claiming Hamas had connections with Iran, which were later debunked for poor translation and authenticity issues.

  Ryan Grim (34:33): "The phrase 'air cover' in the documents doesn't make sense in modern Arabic, suggesting fabrication."

• Second Incident – UNRWA Documents: Another instance involved documents alleging Hamas used UNRWA schools to hide militants, leading to Israeli bombardments of these schools. These documents were also questioned for authenticity.

  Krystal Ball (29:27): "The NYT couldn't authenticate these documents and still proceeded to run the story."

• Impact and Accountability: The hosts criticize The New York Times for not addressing the fallout from publishing fake documents, suggesting a decline in journalistic standards and accountability.

  Ryan Grim (38:32): "The New York Times now stands alone with unchecked power, damage control is minimal despite the severe consequences of their reporting."

6. Indictment of Luigi Mangione and Public Perception (43:08 - 52:50)

The episode covers the indictment of Luigi Mangione for the assassination of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. A recent Emerson poll reveals a significant split in public perception, especially among younger voters.

Emerson Poll (C2) (43:08): "17% find Mangione's actions acceptable, while 16% are unsure. Notably, 41% of voters aged 18-29 believe his actions are acceptable."

Key Points:

• Charges Against Mangione: Facing multiple counts including first-degree murder, second-degree murder, and various weapon possession charges.

• Public Opinion: The poll highlights a generational divide, with younger voters showing more leniency or uncertainty regarding the acceptability of Mangione's actions.

  Krystal Ball (51:12): "Young people are more split on this act, reflecting deeper societal issues and frustrations with the healthcare system."

• Implications for Healthcare Industry: The assassination is seen as a backlash against perceived injustices and corruption within the healthcare sector.

  Saagar Enjeti (52:50): "This speaks to the problem of the healthcare system and the deep anger and sense of injustice people are experiencing."

7. TikTok Ban and Social Media Regulation (54:53 - 61:32)

The hosts discuss the ongoing debate over banning TikTok in the United States, weighing the strategic implications against public perception and geopolitical tensions.

Ryan Grim (55:26): "Trump hinted there might be some daylight left for TikTok, suggesting possible reprieves amidst broader geopolitical shifts."

Key Points:

• Legislative Efforts: Efforts to ban TikTok have faced resistance, especially as public opinion shifts due to international conflicts and the platform's role in disseminating information.

• Proposed Solutions: Grim humorously suggests outsourcing social media regulation to China, highlighting the complexity and challenges of controlling social media usage among minors.

  Ryan Grim (60:07): "We should allow TikTok to continue, but Chairman Xi gets to regulate our children's social media consumption in China."

• North Korean Involvement Claims: The podcast critiques unverified claims about North Korean special forces fighting for Russia, emphasizing the need for credible evidence.

  Ryan Grim (88:13): "Claims about North Korean soldiers in Russia lack credible evidence and are difficult to verify."

8. Justin Trudeau’s Political Turmoil in Canada (92:05 - 99:28)

Krystal Ball and Ryan Grim analyze the recent political crisis in Canada, focusing on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's declining popularity and his Finance Minister's resignation amid tensions with President Trump.

BBC Report (F1) (94:10): "Justin Trudeau is facing serious calls for his resignation amid a spat over tariffs and his perceived prioritization of political gimmicks."

Key Points:

• Finance Minister's Resignation: Krista Freiberg resigned, criticizing Trudeau's focus on political maneuvers rather than economic stability.

  Krystal Ball (98:05): "Freiwald's argument was we need to unite against Trump, but the rationale lacks coherence regarding domestic economic needs."

• Trade Tensions with the U.S.: Trudeau's interactions with Trump over tariffs have damaged his standing within his own party, leading to calls for his resignation.

• Economic Implications: The Canadian dollar's decline impacts Trump's tariff strategies, making Canadian exports cheaper and potentially undermining the effectiveness of tariffs.

  Ryan Grim (98:24): "A crashing Canadian dollar defangs Trump's tariffs, complicating his trade war objectives."

• Leadership Challenges: With declining approval ratings and internal party conflicts, Trudeau faces a precarious political future, with possible electoral consequences looming.

  Krystal Ball (100:28): "Trudeau is facing calls from his own party to resign, indicating a significant threat to his leadership."

9. Germany’s Political Instability (103:28 - 89:53)

The conversation turns to Germany, where Chancellor Olaf Scholz's coalition has collapsed, leading to political instability and the rise of the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) party.

NPR Report (107:08): "Scholz's fractious three-party coalition collapsed over disputes on economic revitalization and Ukraine support."

Key Points:

• Coalition Breakdown: Disagreements over economic policies related to the Ukraine war and energy dependencies led to the resignation of the Finance Minister and the collapse of the governing coalition.

• Rise of AfD: The far-right AfD party is gaining traction, posing challenges for forming stable governing coalitions and promoting nationalist agendas.

  Krystal Ball (104:50): "The AfD is expected to grow to maybe 20%, making it harder to form majority governments."

• Future Implications: Germany faces uncertain political landscapes with potential shifts toward more extremist policies and decreased support for established center-left agendas.

10. Conclusion and Upcoming Segments (109:07 - 111:01)

Krystal Ball and Ryan Grim wrap up the episode by previewing upcoming discussions, including an in-depth interview with Greg Cassar, Chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, scheduled for Counterpoints Friday.

Krystal Ball (110:26): "We’ll be sitting down with Greg Cassar to discuss the future and strategies of the Congressional Progressive Caucus."

Final Thoughts:

• Personal Resilience: Despite personal challenges, Ryan Grim remains committed to delivering insightful and critical analyses of current events.
• Upcoming Content: Listeners are encouraged to visit breakingpoints.com for premium content and early access to shows.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ryan Grim (01:57): "About two weeks ago, my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. She’s already getting treatment, and we’re very confident this is something we’ll overcome."
• Ryan Grim (05:50): "RFK Jr. is expected to be pressed on his views on vaccines."
• Krystal Ball (09:01): "He committed to reinstating the Mexico City policy, which means essentially no taxpayer funding for Planned Parenthood."
• Ryan Grim (34:04): "The New York Times' handling of these documents is embarrassing. They ran major stories based on fabricated documents, leading to tragic consequences."
• Krystal Ball (51:12): "Young people are more split on this act, reflecting deeper societal issues and frustrations with the healthcare system."
• Ryan Grim (60:07): "We should allow TikTok to continue, but Chairman Xi gets to regulate our children's social media consumption in China."
• Krystal Ball (98:05): "Freiwald's argument was we need to unite against Trump, but the rationale lacks coherence regarding domestic economic needs."
• Krystal Ball (104:50): "The AfD is expected to grow to maybe 20%, making it harder to form majority governments."

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Conclusion

This episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar offers a comprehensive analysis of significant geopolitical and domestic issues, from high-stakes political confirmations and international ceasefires to media accountability and the evolving landscape of global alliances. The hosts provide critical perspectives, backed by detailed reporting and thoughtful commentary, making it an essential listen for those seeking in-depth understanding of current affairs.

For more insights and detailed discussions, subscribe to Breaking Points and become a member to access exclusive content and early show releases.

Transcript

[Ryan Grim]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Ryan Grim]

Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Crystal Ball]

This is the only place where you.

[Ryan Grim]

Can find honest perspectives from the left.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And the right that simply does not.

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Exist and anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to breaking points.com.

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Become a member today and you'll get.

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Free and all put together for you.

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Every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the.

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Future of independent news media and we.

[Ryan Grim]

Hope to see [e-mail] Good morning and welcome to Counterpoints. Emily, how you doing?

[Crystal Ball]

I'm good. We've got a lot of news to get through today even though we're so close to the holidays and the cycle just won't slow down.

[Ryan Grim]

It won't. It won't. I did want to start out with one quick personal thing, which is apologies for this show getting out as late as it is. About two weeks ago, my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. That might also explain kind of losing my voice at the same time. This will be our last show. Plus we're doing counterpoints Friday until the Christmas and New Year's break. So we'll see you guys again in January, it's a. You know, they've made extraordinary advances when it comes to treatment of breast cancer. And she's already getting the treatment. And we're very confident that this will be something that's just that we deal with in the past, but kind of have to bear with us a little bit as we go through that.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, well, we're all pulling for you guys, Ryan. You got all your kids a lot to worry about.

[Ryan Grim]

And, you know, we've got. Speaking of Health and Human Services. Right.

[Crystal Ball]

Maybe your best transition ever.

[Ryan Grim]

Luckily, there's going to be a very steady hand on the till. RFK Jr was on Capitol Hill yesterday meeting with senators. Looks like he actually might make it and become Secretary of Health and Human Service. We're going to talk about that. A bunch of folks are in Doha trying to cinch up a ceasefire deal in Gaza. Saudi Arabia has gotten involved as well. We're going to talk about that over at Dropside News. We kind of busted the New York Times relying on a Hamas adjacent source to verify documents. We talked to the source about those documents. He said bro. I told the New York Times I have real doubts about whether those are authentic documents or not. And they just ran with it.

[Crystal Ball]

Anyway, I hope he did say bro.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, I don't think he said bro. Close enough. So we'll get into that. AOC got crushed in her effort to become ranking member of oversight. Luigi's getting charged as a terrorist. What else we got?

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, he was indicted last night. So we have updates on that. Some interesting polling that'll be. It'll be an interesting conversation topic, maybe for everyone's holiday dinner. You can talk about this.

[Ryan Grim]

Boy, I was coming out of GW Hospital on Monday. I can't wait to see this. I don't think we're ever gonna see it, but I got stopped on the street by two reporters. Said, do you have a second to talk about the health insurance industry? They're doing man on the street interviews with people in Washington D.C. they happen to run and around in British accents. They said they're from Sky News. I'm like, sure, I'll do this.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, well, we won't spoil it in case they do air it because what.

[Ryan Grim]

You said was at the end. They asked my name. I told them.

[Crystal Ball]

Amazing. Well, stay tuned, see if that goes to air. We're going to do updates from. Well, actually, there's a lot going on in Capitol Hill, so we will be talking a little bit about what happened with Alexandria, Ocasio, Cortez and Connally for The Oversight Committee, it sounds like. I feel like we're usually talking about Republicans when we're talking about random parliamentary stuff, but this time it's Democrats.

[Ryan Grim]

That's a fun one. Yeah.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah. There's all kinds of parliamentary stuff randomly going on with Republicans right now as they look to keep the government funded. So we'll probably touch on that as well. Ryan. Updates from Ukraine and updates from both Germany and Canada where the leadership is in dire straits.

[Ryan Grim]

Center left is collapsing all over the world.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Macron as well. Maybe we can talk about that, too. He's facing some stiff troubles right ahead. But to return to Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Let's start with his trip around Capitol Hill, which seems to be going very, very well. I wanna start with this mashup of clips so that you can just get a little flavor of what's been happening over the last couple of days as RFK Jr meets to discuss his confirmation with senators. Here you go.

[Ryan Grim]

Can I follow up on Robert Kennedy? He's on the Hill today. He's meeting with senators. What do you say to people who are worried that his views on vaccines will translate into policies that'll make their kids less safe? No, I think he's gonna be much less radical than you would think. I think he's got a very open mind or I wouldn't have put him there. He's gonna be very much less radical. But there are problems. I mean, we don't do as well as a lot of other nations, and those nations use nothing. We trying to gain GOP support to lead.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The Department of Health and Human Services.

[Ryan Grim]

Is expected to be pressed on his views on vaccines.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Senator, you met with RFK Jr yesterday.

[Ryan Grim]

What was your takeaway? Very impressive. I mean, here's a guy that wants to focus on health. It's called Health and Human Services. Health, not sickness. So he wants to make us healthy. It's exactly what we ought to do. I ran the biggest hospital company I know. We've got to figure out how to get people healthy, and that's what he's going to do. I think he's going to do a.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Great job with regard to vaccines.

[Ryan Grim]

If you listen to what he says, he is pro vaccine. What he wants is give you information so you can decide what you put into your body or your child's body. Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world to me. Yeah, absolutely. Give more information. Senator, it's great to see you.

[Crystal Ball]

We so appreciate it.

[Ryan Grim]

Please get away from guessing and do facts do science. Get behind the science and stay with it. Don't be guessing. And that's what a lot of these vaccines have done. They haven't been 100% proven. If you look at the number of vaccines these young babies get over a short period of time, it's dozens and dozens of them. And he's totally against that. He wants to make sure that parents understand the good and the bad and the ugly.

[Crystal Ball]

So I also grabbed about 15 minutes with Senator Tuberville after his meeting with RFK Jr. He said something similar, but in a little bit more detail. He said he talked to RFK Jr about how he has a grandchild coming. And he was saying there are all these, like the vaccine schedule. There are all of these vaccines. And RFK Jr said to him, we only got three when we were kids. And that was a little bit from their conversation, was like, it's basically, you've just had all of these. It was like polio, smallpox, and something else. It's just been added up and added up. And so Tuberville is using this line that he thinks RFK Jr. Is going to, quote, follow the science. And saw a little bit of that from Rick Scott as well. Part of this is a sincere ideological conversion from people like Tuberville, who has been now questioning people about Red Dye 40. I mean, you just never saw this from Republicans. Ryan, you know this better than I do. I mean, that it was. There was this ideological and political deference to business, to the business community. And there have been sincere ideological conversions. A lot of it is obviously political. Now, let's actually skip ahead to a three, because this is what Tuberville told me. His first question was to RFK Jr. It was about abortion, he said, and this was going to be the big sticking point with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Being confirmed by a Republican Senate. Josh Hawley posted a thread last night saying that he got all of these concessions, which I think are very significant concessions, whether you're like pro choice or pro life. These are significant concessions from someone who says that he's pro choice. Reinstating the Mexico City policy. That's what Josh Hawley said.

[Ryan Grim]

And what is that? Foreign funding? None. Initiated into the lingo of the abortion wars.

[Crystal Ball]

Taxpayer funding for abortion internationally and domestically is what he committed to Hawley.

[Ryan Grim]

That's Mexico City.

[Crystal Ball]

Mexico City is foreign, right? Yeah. But he also said in the same post that he would end taxpayer funding for abortions domestically.

[Ryan Grim]

What does that mean?

[Crystal Ball]

Probably Planned Parenthood taxpayer funding, because currently.

[Ryan Grim]

Planned Parenthood doesn't use the money. That gets from the federal government for abortion services. But what he's saying is don't give them a penny, period.

[Crystal Ball]

Perhaps. Yeah, I mean, they don't specifically say that, but that's how I would. That's how Republicans would interpret it. And I think other people already have interpreted that way. Reinstating the bar on Title 10 funds, going to organizations that promote abortion. So that's probably also an umbrella on Planned Parenthood. I'm not entirely sure about that. But he also said, and I think this is the most significant, that all of his deputies, according to Hawley at hhs, would be pro life. So that's a basically Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Man who says he is pro choice, saying, I will have a pro life Health and Human Services Department.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. And then the problem there is that Planned Parenthood, as you know, does an enormous amount of health care services for low income women who use, who use them as. Because they can't get any services anywhere else. So he's saying he's all about health, but obviously those types of services are crucial to health. But he's just gonna kind of capitulate on it in order to get in there. I guess nobody should have expected him to die on like the altar of women's rights. Like, that's not what RFK Jr. Was ever gonna do.

[Crystal Ball]

His big life's mission is vaccines and pharma and food and. Yeah, I would imagine. I mean, he's always actually talked about this in the language of bodily autonomy, which is where it gets really tricky for him to now come out and talk about how he'll be running essentially a pro life hhs. The reason that it's worth going through this Hawley thread is that this is enough. I think this will be enough to put him on a glide path to confirmation with Senate Republicans. This should satisfy them for the most part. On the pro life issue, on the issue of abortion, like you're not. This is going to settle the pro life groups down. They're gonna stop lobbying against him or chirping against him. And now his tough thing is going to be it. We heard Trump address it. He's going to be talking to like Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins about vaccines and people who are even less moderate than them. Tuberville Scott said they've been satisfied in their conversations, but that's still a sticking point.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, my guess would be, and tell me if you think I'm right, getting into the Republican mind, that as long as he's good for them on abortion, they actually don't care about hhs. It's like, not a top tier concern of theirs. Are they really? Oh, no, he's gonna run HHS into the ground. Boy, that would be so sad for Republicans if something like that happened.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, what's funny is that I think they used to care about HHS to protect business interests. Right. You know what I mean?

[Ryan Grim]

It was interesting that. Yeah. They're like, okay, they're, they're adopting some of the crunchy, like hippie vibes around what you would call like a raw milk politics.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Ryan Grim]

But Trump's seems to like be nowhere near that. And so that's why you saw at the top of the segment there, him saying, like, no, he's not really into all that. So I think basically what they're trying to say is, okay, he's gonna be really good on abortion for us and he's not actually gonna do these things. He's not gonna ban the vaccine. He's not gonna stop you from getting the vaccines. He might have out there ideas about it, but he's not actually gonna implement them.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Which is kind of a funny way to kind of get yourself through.

[Crystal Ball]

But yeah, it's. I mean, I think it'll probably work at this point. Although Tuberville told me he thinks that Democrats are essentially saving their biggest attacks on Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Until after the holidays when the confirmation process is really heating up and actually, like, people have to make the decision to vote yes.

[Ryan Grim]

Or do you think he gets through?

[Crystal Ball]

As of right now, I would say yes. I think there's just like, the voters really, really like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. The Republican base really likes Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. For whatever reason.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. So I also think, just from a Democratic small D perspective, like, if you win the White House and you run saying you're going to like, bring a certain person into the White House. Right. They're like, all right, guy won.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

He said he was gonna put this guy in a job that's very similar to this, like hh. This is not a surprise.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

And people voted for him, so go ahead.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, and really quickly, this is a great transition to a 2. If we can go back to a great Christian Parenti piece in compact about how RFK Jr. Could, quote, take on the CIA. Now, you can't do that from HHS, but the position you can do that from is a trusted Trump advisor, a literal member of his cabinet, which RFK Jr. Now is. That's another thing I've been trying to sort of sniff out a little bit is like, are you guys sort of treating him as the crazy hippie uncle at the Thanksgiving table who you just sort of like you'll wink at each other across the table while he's talking about whatever? No, he's actually very much in the inner circle. He is trusted and valued. And so to that extent he could do a little bit of what Parenti talks about here.

[Ryan Grim]

And the CIA. Links to the hhs, to HHS are kind of interesting. And he writes at one point, this is, I thought, a really interesting passage. Parenti writes, Between 2013 and 2020, USAID, which is basically a CIA front, along with Anthony Fauci's NIAID and the Defense Threat Reduction agency of the U.S. department of Defense, all gave millions of dollars to a New York based nonprofit called Ecohealth Alliance. We've reported about that over and over. Run by Dr. Peter Dajak, EcoHealth alliance in turn funded gain of function research at the Wuhan Institute of virology. In 2015, EcoHealth alliance also pitched in Q Tel, which is basically the CIA's private equity firm, for funding with a proposal called, quote, identifying predictable patterns in disease emergence. We don't know the results of these proposals because in Q Tel provides limited public information on its investments. And then Parenti writes, though thoroughly documented, this set of facts is so insane that they make any person reiterating them sound insane by association. And it's one of the kind of advantages that the CIA and the USAID and the Defense Department have had in the entire bioweapons space is that it just sounds completely nuts. And RFK Jr has written an entire book about this. Yes, the Truth About Wuhan, I think.

[Crystal Ball]

It'S called, or something like that about Fauci.

[Ryan Grim]

Something. Anyway, in any event, this is not a kind of hobby horse for him like this is this, this could get interesting.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, you have to.

[Ryan Grim]

And meanwhile in the ndaa, they shoveled a whole bunch more money towards gain of function research that's headed towards passage this week.

[Crystal Ball]

Yes. And towards the Global Engagement center that was funneling money towards basically websites that were recommending suppression of, for example, the Federalists and the Daily Wire. So it's, it's. The NDA is getting interesting. But Robert F. Kennedy Jr. To your point about Parenti's links from HHS, USAID to EcoHealth and all of these things, you, in order to actually change this, have to basically know the ins and outs. You need to do chapter and verse in them while you're sleeping. And he can do that, which should be Terrifying to the people who benefit from those funds.

[Ryan Grim]

I don't think RFJK Jr remotely has all the answers here. But I also know that we are a deeply unhealthy country. You can just travel around the country or look around and you can tell. You can just see it like, we need help. We're not in a good place. And the corporate capture of our food, our medicines, is obviously a huge problem. So if RFK Jr comes in as a wrecking ball, just because he doesn't know how to rebuild it doesn't mean that a little bit of creative destruction wouldn't be useful. Because whatever path we're on is not a good one.

[Crystal Ball]

Right? Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Creative destruction, the pollutants, the chemicals, the plastics, all of it together is like we're on a suicide path.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah. Creative destruction is, I think, the best case scenario here.

[Ryan Grim]

So perhaps it's what people voted for.

[Crystal Ball]

So it's exactly what people voted for.

[Ryan Grim]

Like the wrecking ball swing.

[Crystal Ball]

Although Tuberville also told me he was satisfied by RFKJR's answers to on climate. So that might not be so good for the crunchy left.

[Ryan Grim]

What did Tilberville hear?

[Crystal Ball]

I don't know. I wasn't there, Ryan. I just asked questions.

[Ryan Grim]

RFK Jr. Is willing to give up on climate too.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

So actually, I bet. What? So here's how I bet RFK Jr finesses the climate issue with deniers like Tuberville. What I bet he said is that we overemphasize carbon.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

And that we don't emphasize enough the problems of plastics, which come from carbon, by the way. Don't tell Tuberville that and all the other poisons in our. That go into our bloodstream in our actual streams.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

And so he's not. So RFK Jr. Is not saying climate is not a problem. He's saying that the monomaniacal fixation just on climate misses the holistic problems facing the Earth. And I think Tuberville would hear that and be like, oh, he's with me. He doesn't care about climate.

[Crystal Ball]

He literally said he agrees with me on climate.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Crystal Ball]

So you can watch that.

[Ryan Grim]

I guarantee you that's how that conversation went. And Tuberville, it was like, whoop.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, well, don't tell anybody where the plastic comes from because then it gets really sticky.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. Hi, everyone.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Kotb from the Today Show. We love this time of year. There's so much to celebrate.

[Ryan Grim]

That's right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Nobody does the holidays quite like today all season long.

[Ryan Grim]

Join us for special performances with the.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Brightest stars, plus festive recipes to whip up the perfect holiday feast and great deals on the hottest toys and gifts for everyone on your list. So join us every morning on NBC to make today your home for the holidays.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Gifting is hard, but here's a hint. Give the gift of connection from US Cellular. Not sure what that means? Here's a slightly more specific you can choose four free phones and get four lines for $90 a month from US Cellular. Your family wants new phones? How do we know? They told us. The good news is that compared to wrapping presents, you're great at getting hints. So take the hint and get them four free phones and four lines for $90 a month.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Crystal Ball]

All right Ryan, we're going to be talking about Hatz here. What have you got for us?

[Ryan Grim]

So yeah, there's a bunch of reporting coming out of the Mideast that they're getting increasingly close to an actual ceasefire deal. I tend to think that they're exaggerating how close we are. It's just my gut and following this fairly closely that I suspect Netanyahu will continue to drag this out right until January 19th and reach a deal on like January 20th. What Hamas has said publicly is that they are ready to make a deal today as long as Israel stops adding new conditions constantly. So what is happening is as they narrow each gap, then Israel will put in kind of one More new thing, say, oh, do this. And then it takes another couple days. People gotta meet again. You gotta pass the paper back and forth.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, we saw this, by the way around. It was like late August around the dnc. We were in another cycle. I mean, this seems to be closer than that.

[Ryan Grim]

Hamas was saying the exact same thing. The deal, we'll take the deal on the table. Biden put forward the public deal that Israel's cabinet had approved, their war cabinet had approved. Biden made it public. Hamas said, we'll take it. We're done, we're good. This is it, we'll take it. And Israel kept saying no and just kind of moving the line. So the current deal that's on the table includes huge concessions from Hamas. The main concession that it includes is that Israeli troops would not have to withdraw immediately from Gaza. Like, that was a huge sticking point. Originally. Hamas was saying, there's no ceasefire until you withdraw from Gaza. Now they're saying, fine, Israeli troops can stay as long as there is some path for them leaving in the future. And during the pause in fighting, all the vulnerable and civilian hostages would be exchanged for several hundred Palestinian hostages. And then next you would move to talks towards a permanent ceasefire. Saudi Arabia has gotten involved, saying that they would kind of. They would help to finance the reconstruction of Gaza while normalizing relations with Israel. And Saudi Arabia has dropped its demand that Israel recognize a Palestinian state and replace that with a path toward a Palestinian state.

[Crystal Ball]

So, and this is all from. We know these, like, broad contours from the Haaretz report.

[Ryan Grim]

Haaretz and other reporting, some Axios reporting. There's some reporting from Arabic outlets as well. This is these from yesterday.

[Crystal Ball]

It broke yesterday.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. These are the broad contours of the deal. And think about that when you follow the news over the next several days without a deal. Like, I'd love to be proven wrong. I love that just as we walk out of the studio, they announced that actually everybody has agreed to the ceasefire. Yesterday in Gaza, there were celebrations in the streets at the news that a ceasefire deal was closed. Like, everybody wants this, but I think Netanyahu sees another six weeks or five weeks or so that he can kind of rain hell down upon Gaza. There are still hospitals left standing. Kamal Adwan hospital in northern Gaza, which has been subject to now more than a month of relentless assaults from Israel leading to the killing of multiple doctors, nurses, their families. Yesterday, Yesterday, doctors were attacked while they were operating, like, through the windows. But the hospital's still operating. And I believe that Israel is attempting to completely ethnically cleanse northern Gaza and needs to shut down all the hospitals. So I don't think that they'll reach a deal until they've completely shut down all of the hospitals.

[Crystal Ball]

So this sounds very cynical. Not quite. I mean, this. I would be surprised, to be honest, if Netanyahu brokered this deal and like agreed to this deal under Biden as opposed to under Trump.

[Ryan Grim]

I think he obviously realized the reason that might happen under Biden is that that's kind of what Trump has been demanding. Like, Trump has been saying that he wants this done by the time he's in office and he will then take credit for it. Which, fine. I don't, like, I don't care who takes credit for stuff.

[Crystal Ball]

He could do it on day one, though, right? Like, he could do it well, which.

[Ryan Grim]

Is why he might. That's why, that's why I said it might be on January 20th. Yeah, yeah. And speaking of credit, I don't defend Biden ever, but like he was getting dragged yesterday for saying that he had helped broker a deal that freed a. You know, he had more than 100, and in fact, in November, when there was a week long ceasefire, 105 hostages were released by Hamas. And you know, if you're gonna say that Biden is facilitating the genocide, which I do say, and I do believe he also brokered that deal. So it's like, I don't understand why people were getting upset at him. It actually to me makes it worse for him because it shows that was possible. Like, the only thing that has freed hostages at scale was a ceasefire. And the deal that we will eventually reach probably on January 20th after another several thousand people are killed violently and tens of thousands, maybe more, die of starvation and disease and malnutrition. Because like, you know, imagine going a year plus without access to reliable clean water medicine. Like, even the healthiest people are gonna, you know, collapse under those circumstances. The deal we'll eventually get was on the table a year ago. They didn't want it a year ago. They wanted to do what they did for the last year. Go ahead.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, I was gonna say, I mean, we should even take a look at Syria because we have some video of Netanyahu in.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, that's right. So there's this kind of debate, like there was some reporting that Netanyahu was on his way to Doha to like finalize this deal. And then they said, no, he's not in. They said, no, he's not in Doha. He was supposed to be in court, actually. He got for his corruption trial. But he got his. He was allowed to, like, not show up for his. His corruption trial. And then they released video of where he actually is over at the Golan Heights. He's addressing people in Hebrew here.

[Crystal Ball]

Stunning visual. I mean, yeah, he's got his flak jacket on.

[Ryan Grim]

His flak jacket, but what's he wearing? A flak jacket. He's not remotely at any risk there, but he's standing basically atop Mount Hermon, which Israel wants because it is basically the only way for Israelis to go skiing without having to fly somewhere. So within their own borders. So they can now have a ski resort.

[Crystal Ball]

Their argument is it's a buffer zone.

[Ryan Grim]

The buffer zone. And the buffer zone. And the buffer zone. The buffer zone and the buffer zone. It's a ski resort. And they say they're going to settle it and populate it as well. They're going to double and then some. The population in the area. The State Department will say, oh, it's a buffer zone and this is temporary, while Israel's saying, actually we're gonna settle it and populate it.

[Crystal Ball]

So two different, two different lines coming from a. Which is not unfamiliar at all because this is an administration on one hand says we support a two state solution, but we're supporting a war. From a man who says there's no such thing as a two state solution. Along those lines.

[Ryan Grim]

Right? Yeah. You have Israel being a little bit more open and honest about what they're doing, and the State Department just lying directly to our faces about that. What we see and what they're saying is actually not what they're doing and saying. It's like, what's going on here?

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

So, no. So he was not in Doha reaching a ceasefire deal. He was working on the invasion and occupation of Syria, taking the opportunity of the Syrian people overthrowing a dictator to get a ski resort and call it a buffer zone.

[Crystal Ball]

Meanwhile, you guys at dropsite have a really interesting report about Hamas documents provided by Israel to the New York Times. And all of this goes to Iran as well, which is the. I mean, that's the central, like, fear of Americans here, the World War III component. And now you have the New York Times. This is a great story.

[Ryan Grim]

You should just add, like, yeah, really fascinating and embarrassing for the New York Times story in dropsite by Jeremy Scahol and Sharif Abdelkadoos. We can put this up on the screen, we can put a link in there. But so basically to give the gist of what's going on here. So twice now in the Last couple months, the New York Times has run major bombshell stories citing Hamas documents that were found by Israel and then given to the New York Times. So that's the chain of custody, alleged chain of custody of these documents. So when you're doing this reporting, what you need to do is figure out whether or not the documents that you're being given are authentic. One of the ways you can do that is by verifying that the source of the documents would have access to those documents and doesn't have a motivation to lie about them. So in other words, if a Hamas whistleblower, for instance, or an IDF whistleblower reaches out and you can confirm that that is who they are and they hand over some documents to you, you start out with a threshold of, okay, these are probably authentic, but I'm going to need to cross reference some things. I'm going to need to figure some other things out. Now, if Hamas came to you and said that they had discovered some IDF documents and then gave you those documents, you start from a place of skepticism. Yes, because they are motivated to lie about them and they wouldn't really have access to them. They say, well, it was during October 7, we were in the, you know, we were in one of the military bases and we made off with some hard drives and here are the documents that we got. What you would then do is you would take those documents and you would give them to sources connected to the idf, presumably former. Because if you give them current, then they're not gonna be able to do that unless they're quite trustworthy, and that those sources will then try to figure out, okay, here are some problems with these documents. Or say, you know, these actually kind of look authentic. There's other things you can do to try to authenticate them. So New York Times gets these documents from Hamas, I mean, allegedly from Hamas through Israel. And so they take it to a former Hamas guy, they take it to Saleh Al Awadah. That's who they name in their article as saying that they bear resemblance to Hamas documents and that these are good enough, go ahead and publish these documents. That's who the Times cites. So Jeremy Scahill calls the guy up and says, what else can you tell me about these documents? He says, this sounds very interesting and you can read the full story. He tells him, I didn't tell the New York Times these were authentic documents. I'll just read one portion of it. Al Awade told Dropsite that the times only shared one page out of 30 with him. After looking it over he said he told the Times reporter that there was a particular phrase in the document that he suspected was a translation and that the person who wrote it did not sound native in Arabic. I told him this looks translated, it doesn't look real. This phrase is out of context, it is not used and its meaning is not clear. The phrase in question roughly translates in English as quote, air, cover, quote. I told him it might be translated from another language, that whomever wrote it translated it literally, but it is not used in the modern Arabic context, unquote. And he also shared a voice note with dropsight that he had sent to the reporter where he had raised these doubts. And he also shared the exchanges that they had. So we know that this conversation happened cuz the Times says it happened like the Times says they talked to this guy and he shared with us what he told them. So think about that. So now imagine that you are a reporter. Hamas has handed you documents that they say are Hebrew documents from the idf. Yeah. You show it to a Hebrew speaker and the Hebrew speaker tells you the Hebrew speaker who used to be with the idf. Hebrew speaker says this word actually looks like it was originally written in Arabic and translated into Hebrew. This doesn't look right. You could not then source that person as authenticating your documents. What that person told you is that you have fake documents. And how pathetic is it that Israel, which is in the Middle east, doesn't have Arabic speakers to fabricate their documents?

[Crystal Ball]

It's like not even a good fabrication.

[Ryan Grim]

Like they're using Google Translate, like they're starting in Hebrew or English and then just having it translated into Arabic. And what happens when you do that is that your language doesn't sound authentic. And so that particular story was a claim. You remember this bombshell was a claim that Iran was read in on October 7th.

[Crystal Ball]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

And that Hamas wanted Iranian help for.

[Crystal Ball]

October 7th, which is a hugely significant.

[Ryan Grim]

And which was used as a pretext for the expansion of their assault on Iran. Yeah, turns out that's just completely fake. So now fast forward to just a couple days ago, they put out a new investigation that they said was from Hamas documents that Israel had obtained and given to the New York Times. This one, the document said basically it was Hamas saying we love to hide our militants inside UNRWA schools and UNRWA is our secret weapon to go after Israel. Like that's basically what they're saying. This document says in that article. They say that they were not able to authenticate the documents, but they believed they were authentic because they bore similarities to previous documents that they had been able to authenticate. So they're clearly referring back to these Iran documents which we now know were fabricated themselves. So Israel is just concocting. And then what did they do? Bombed two UNRWA schools and killed more than 60 people. So like this is all premeditated. Like, so they cook up these fake documents, they give them to the New York Times, they say these are Hamas documents, and then they use that article as pretext then for some slaughter that they carry out. They did get busted by Bild, not by Build Build. And I believe it was Jewish Currents ran a piece based on quote, unquote, Hamas documents that said that Yahya Sinwar was planning to escape to Egypt with a bunch of hostages that turned out to be demonstrably proven to be a hoax and a bunch of egg on Bild's face. And, and like that's not in question. You don't need to take it from me that that was fake. But that happened before the New York Times getting hoaxed here.

[Crystal Ball]

So the reason, I mean there are many reasons, but one of the pieces of this puzzle that's so significant is obviously the Iran link, because the New York Times, what in 2002, 2003, was relying on bad sourcing and that reporting was used over and over again to substantiate war.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Crystal Ball]

It's a lesson that has very recently been learned specifically, specifically by the New York Times. And some of this, you and I probably disagree on some of this, but some of it doesn't even need to be faked and exaggerated because we've talked before about how there's a genuine challenge for UNWRA in Gaza to like disentangle itself from the government, which is de facto Hamas. Right. Like this.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. They have tens of thousands of employees.

[Crystal Ball]

Right? Right. Yeah. And it just. So all that is to say for the New York Times, I mean, Israel's another question for the New York Times.

[Ryan Grim]

To the point like most of those tens of thousands of employees are like teachers and those types of folks. So do some of them work, you know, on the side for Hamas? Yeah, like a handful. Like, no doubt.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, it's a problem.

[Ryan Grim]

But what Israel claimed that they had found, you know, much more sinister collaboration and then used that to slaughter a bunch of civilians who were sheltering in these, in these schools.

[Crystal Ball]

It's very, very sloppy. I mean, on the part of the New York Times and such a high stakes reporter reporting.

[Ryan Grim]

I don't even know why Israel and the New York Times bother at this point. Israel has Shown that it can slaughter endless amounts of Palestinians without any cover. They don't even need the New York Times to lie for them. So if you're at the New York Times, you can stand down like, the world has given up. The world is just allowing this genocide to unfold. You want to go ahead and burn your credibility in order to facilitate more of the genocide, you go ahead and do it, but you don't actually have to anymore. Like, nobody's going to stop them.

[Crystal Ball]

It's so. I mean, Jeremy, just calling the guy up ahead is just like.

[Ryan Grim]

He's like, oh, can you prove that? Yeah, here's a voice memo. Here's texts. Yeah.

[Crystal Ball]

Such a sad statement.

[Ryan Grim]

So embarrassing. Oh. So we went to the New York Times for comment, and they responded by saying that they didn't answer any of the questions directly. They responded by saying it was a rich story based on lots of different sources.

[Crystal Ball]

Sure.

[Ryan Grim]

So they talked to analysts and other people for other parts of the story. The headline, the lead, and the whole story are about these documents that you obtained. And you're not even gonna stand up for those documents.

[Crystal Ball]

Right, Exactly. That's a cop out.

[Ryan Grim]

100% pathetic. They should be ashamed of themselves. They feel like they have total impunity because the Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Wall Street Journal, all these other outlets that used to be major competitors of theirs have all withered. And so the New York Times now just stands alone.

[Crystal Ball]

That's interesting.

[Ryan Grim]

And so they're just completely unchecked except by people within their newsroom and by independent media at this point. But the editors, will they even hold a meeting about this? Oh, hey, by the way, guys, turns out we got hoaxed and ran two major stories based on documents that were fabricated and dozens of people were killed. Many of them were burned to death as a result of. And on the predicate of these articles that we published and got. Should we meet about this and try to not have this happen again? Even if you don't care about all the death, it's embarrassing. But because they have so much impunity, because they have no competitors at this point.

[Crystal Ball]

That's a really interesting point because they're.

[Ryan Grim]

Not even gonna have a meeting about this.

[Crystal Ball]

In prior eras, the Washington Post would have loved to have run your drop sessions and they would have been calling the source. Yeah, if they had more like. If they had more resources and. Absolutely. Yeah. More like. I mean, right now they're really just not even competing with the Times. So it's not necessarily even a thought. Like, oh, let's spend some of our reporters time calling up one of their sources.

[Ryan Grim]

But yeah, and there's also a kind of colonialism where it's like you can actually just say whatever you want about Hamas and Hamas documents just say it and nobody's, nobody's going to like raise an issue with it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Hi everyone, it's Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Kotb from the Today Show. We love this time of year. There's so much to celebrate.

[Ryan Grim]

That's right, nobody does the holidays quite.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Like today all season long.

[Ryan Grim]

Join us for special performances with the brightest stars.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Plus festive recipes to whip up the perfect holiday feast and great deals on the hottest toys and gifts for everyone on your list. So join us every morning on NBC to make TODAY your home for the holidays.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Gifting is hard, but here's a Give the Gift of Connection from US Cellular. Not sure what that means? Here's a slightly more specific hint. You can choose four free phones and get four lines for $90 a month from US Cellular. Your family wants new phones. How do we know? They told us. The good news is that compared to wrapping presents, you're great at getting hints. So take the hint and get them four free phones and four lines for $90 a month. US Cellular built for us.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Attention parents and grandparents. Are you searching for the perfect gift for your kids this holiday season? Give the gift of adventure that will last all year long. A Guardian Bike the easiest, safest and quickest bikes for kids to learn on. Kids are learning to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. What makes Guardian Bikes special? They're the easiest to ride thanks to the thoughtful engineering, lightweight frames and kid friendly components. Kids love how fun and easy they are to ride and parents appreciate the safety features like the patented braking system that prevents head over handlebar accidents. Guardian Bikes are the only kids bikes designed and assembled in a USA factory, ensuring top notch quality and durability. They're built to last and make perfect hand me downs. Make holiday gifting stress free with Guardian bikes. With guaranteed 12 day shipping for just $29, you can trust your gift will arrive in time to create magical memories this holiday season. Plus, sign up for their newsletter to receive a free bike lock and pop with your first purchase. The perfect stocking stuffer for any kid on your list. Visit guardianbikes.com to secure the ultimate holiday gift today. Happy riding.

[Crystal Ball]

Let's move on to the indictment of Luigi Mangione. He was indicted last night. We can put C1 up on the screen. He was indicted for first degree murder. Obviously in the death of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. That is according to the Manhattan District Attorney's office. So that's a step towards actually getting. He's facing two counts, we should add, of second degree murder. One of it is killing as a crime of terrorism, two for second degree criminal possession of a weapon, three counts of third degree criminal possession of a weapon, one count for fourth degree possession of a weapon, and one count of second degree possession of a forged instrument. So he's facing all kinds of charges. This one obviously is the headline charge, but it also comes amidst discussion about an Emerson poll. This is C2 we should put up on the screen here. Ryan, did you see this Emerson poll where a majority of voters think the actions of the killer of the UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson are unacceptable? 17% find the actions acceptable, while 16% are unsure. Now, interestingly, the pollster says while 68% of voters overall reject the killer's actions, younger voters and Democrats are more split. 41% of voters aged 18 through 29 find the killer's actions acceptable. But to be clear, the breakdown of that is 24% of those 18 to 29 year olds said it was somewhat acceptable, 17% said it was completely acceptable. And when you combine both of them, that's where you get the 41% thinking that it was acceptable, even though some of them just said somewhat. And Mediaite covered this, as you just saw on the screen, as a, quote, stunning poll. I don't know that it's that stunning. Ryan, what do you think?

[Ryan Grim]

Well, also, one detail I think we should let viewers know is that this murder happened on December 4, which is the day that we were recording Counterpoints here in the studio. And if you remember, there was a kid named Luigi Mangione who came by and was in the control room from about 6am until about, I think we did a Counterpoints Friday recording afterwards. So that went till 11 or 11:30.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, he has an Alabama.

[Ryan Grim]

It might be a different Luigi Mangione, but from seeing him, he said he was from Baltimore. He seemed like the same guy seen Baltimore. I remember we talked about Gilman, his prep school kid. He talked about how he'd never been to New York, didn't have any plans on going to New York.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah. And he can't even ride a bike.

[Ryan Grim]

Actually, from what I remember, that he couldn't ride a bike. He would never ride a city bike.

[Crystal Ball]

Because you do. People don't know this.

[Ryan Grim]

Hates McDonald's.

[Crystal Ball]

You love to talk about bikes.

[Ryan Grim]

I do. Like, yeah, we had A long conversation about bikes, like curly hair. Anyway, so the terror. By the way, I'm curious for your take on the terror charges.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

I've seen people make what I think is a fair point, like, hey, wait a minute, January 6th, guys, they were trying to terrorize all sorts of people. They don't get charged with that. Lots of people don't get charged with terror. On the other hand, if that wasn't Luigi, who was here in the control room. I think it was, but it wasn't whoever was guilty of this, who has said that the goal was to sow terror?

[Crystal Ball]

It's in the paragraph manifesto.

[Ryan Grim]

When Lennon and Robespierre use the word terror. They don't use it pejoratively.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Their goal is to terrorize.

[Crystal Ball]

Please, please don't charge me with terrorism.

[Ryan Grim]

Now, not saying that he did it, but if he did, the goal was to terrorize. So the pearl clutching around the terrorism charges to me is like, well, look, man, if you're gonna do this stuff like this, that's what you're doing.

[Crystal Ball]

Right. And Mangione is pleading not guilty. Right. He says this is not what happened. And which is very interesting because he.

[Ryan Grim]

Was here in the control room.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah. But it continues to be very interesting because there's a manifesto that is being pinned to him, and maybe it is him. It seems likelier than not.

[Ryan Grim]

The manifesto doesn't fit. You have to quit.

[Crystal Ball]

It seems likelier than not that it is, but we've seen setups. It's not impossible that there are. I mean, really, though, like, he's pleading not guilty. The whole situation is extremely bizarre. He's able to get. He shoots a guy in cold blood in Manhattan during the day and just gets away for days. Just blends into the crowd in Midtown and is able to actually get out of state to Pennsylvania and isn't caught for days like that. I think in and of itself, is pretty strange. That continues to me to be the weirdest part of all of this.

[Ryan Grim]

I would like to know the real story on how they caught him, because, you know, whatever. Like, this feels like one of those stitched together cover stories for how they caught him, where, in fact, they were using surveillance technologies that are, to put it generously, maybe on the constitutional edge of being allowed. And so what will often happen if you use those types of authorities to solve a crime or to catch somebody? You then figure out a way that you could have done it legitimately, and you pull that together. Or maybe they really are completely incompetent and just, you know, somebody you know, saw him at the McDonald's and made a phone call.

[Crystal Ball]

Speculation is that he's going to plead not guilty by insanity, which is obviously a different. You know, that's very different than saying, I flat out didn't do it.

[Ryan Grim]

The not guilty by insanity. Like. Right, there's two. Basically, you're trying to get the jury to. You're trying to give the jury a reason to acquit you, even though they know you did it. And the one would be, I don't know, I wasn't there. It wasn't me. This was all planted. And it's like, like you said, it's getting hard.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, it's pretty hard to do that. There's a lot of footage.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. Cause they could subpoena our cameras here and find that actually Luigi wasn't here. But then the second one would be to say he was insane. And then the jury can be like, yeah, he was temporarily insane.

[Crystal Ball]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

And that doesn't mean we condone it. We mean it was an act of insanity. But it means we're gonna let him go now and then they give him a gun charge or something. Right?

[Crystal Ball]

Well, he has a bunch of gun charges.

[Ryan Grim]

So they feel like they've still said there have to be some consequences here, but not necessarily life in prison.

[Crystal Ball]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

I think that's my guess of where the strategy goes.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

So are you surprised that the 41 to 40 youth, that's 29 and under, say that by 41 to 40, now it's Emerson.

[Crystal Ball]

They're like, it's a thousand person poll.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. But anyway.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, I'm saying that's not. I mean, listen, I'm sure pollsters would look at me and be like a thousand people. That's statistically standing, blah, blah, blah. No, it's.

[Ryan Grim]

It is. But if you're a bad pollster, you can get whatever you want out of that.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, when you're down in the 17%, you can find 17% of Americans who say just about everything. Like, it's usually around 20%. You can say in a poll 41 people are just like.

[Ryan Grim]

You can just say it's somewhat acceptable. Acceptable.

[Crystal Ball]

It's 41 combined with the 17. So somewhat.

[Ryan Grim]

That's somewhat indefinitely acceptable.

[Crystal Ball]

Completely acceptable. Right. Yeah. So all that is to say, I.

[Ryan Grim]

Think it's a tough one because people have complicated views about this. I think they're like, it's wrong to commit murder. I wouldn't commit murder. I wouldn't urge anybody to commit murder. What do I think about this? Kind of rather not Say so where do you, where do you come down? Like, how do you poll that sentiment? Which I think is pretty widely held.

[Crystal Ball]

And by the way, we should be clear that we don't exactly know how Mangione is exactly going to plead. Again, the speculation is not guilty by reason of insanity. It does look like all of the indications are not guilty. That's his case. It's going to be not guilty. But how exactly he makes that plea is a different question. Now back to this. There's two different things here. I mean, if you're asking the question of somewhat acceptable versus completely acceptable, to your point, the complicated feelings about acceptability are going to come in. And that's where it seems, I guess.

[Ryan Grim]

That falls under somewhat acceptable.

[Crystal Ball]

But that's the thing, right?

[Ryan Grim]

Somewhat unacceptable.

[Crystal Ball]

There's a totally different question as to whether it's acceptable to talk about Thompson's corruption in the aftermath of his death. And I feel like it's very easy to conflate those two things, especially if you're just like responding quickly to a poll. And so I think some of it comes from that. And there's all of this, like, hysteria over people getting zoomers getting like Mangioni tattoos. They're doing it because everyone's going to their fainting couch and acting as though healthcare executives are beyond criticism. And it just strikes me as such a. Like when somebody take an example of a Columbine. What do we do after something like that? We talk about bullying. You're talking about why it's not okay to bully people because it makes people snap. It doesn't mean it's okay. Nobody's saying it's okay for people to snap. Like, we are adults and can hold multiple views at the same time that are not inconsistent. Like, two things can be true, that the more you create a climate that pushes people to extremism and makes them miserable, makes them angry, the more likely you are to get situations like this. It doesn't justify it and it doesn't make it right. And so I think the way the question is worded is in that direction. And I think the reason that so many people are acting out and like ironically and sometimes non ironically embracing Mangione. It's not the way that I'm reacting to any of this, but the reason is because there's now so much hysteria that's like weirdly defending the healthcare industry and acting like he was just a guy who was trying to do his best.

[Ryan Grim]

Diving deeper into the poll, the other interesting number is the somewhat unacceptable because it's somebody who shot a guy in the back on 6th Avenue. And to get people off of totally unacceptable, which is where everybody starts with that act and move them even to somewhat unacceptable is that's something. That's some gray area for young people. That was an extra 7%. So that takes it to 40, 48%, which leaves only 1 in 3 people under 29 saying that it was completely unacceptable. So 2/3 of young people confronted with, hey, somebody walked up and shot somebody in the back in broad daylight. Is that completely unacceptable? Two out of three were not willing to say that that was completely unacceptable, acceptable. So even though only 41. So it's actually kind of a higher number.

[Crystal Ball]

Yes. And I do get why people are. I get why, you know, the types of people who introduce themselves at happy hours as like, classical liberals are disturbed by these numbers. And I get why, like, normal people are disturbed by these numbers. They are like, yes, it speaks to the problem of the health care system and it speaks to the problem of, like, the deep, deep, deep anger and sense of unjust, like, unjustness and just misery that people are experiencing. And this is like cathartic. So, yes, it's disturbing because the system, in order to operate, in order to, let's say, exact justice peacefully and through the, like, classically liberal process, you have to have buy in. And what you're losing is public buy in. And you can't just blame the public for that. You have to also blame the top for that. Just to lash out at the public is the exact wrong way to go about it. And it's only going to make things worse if you're just lashing out at the public.

[Ryan Grim]

And I feel bad for TikTok. Just as they thought they were maybe going to get some salvation from their coming band, all of a sudden, all these young people are now celebrating. Luigi. So TikTok is like, they're starting to take it out of app stores, right? It's like the ban is coming. Like it's like a month away or something like that. But there's still time to stave it off. Donald Trump at his press conference this week hinted that there might be some daylight there. Let's roll Trump here. C3.

[Crystal Ball]

How do you plan to stop the.

[Ryan Grim]

Ban on TikTok next month? We'll take a look at TikTok. You know, I have a warm spot in my heart for TikTok because I won youth by 34 points. There are those that say that TikTok had something to do with that. Now Joe Rogan did and Some of the other people that were recommended by my son, Baron, whoever, he knew names. I said, who is that? Tell me, who's that? Dad, you gotta be kidding. I can't believe you don't know. And I did those interviews, and it was actually sort of cute. Do you want to know the truth? So I have a little bit of a warm spot in my heart. I'll be honest. I love how transparent Trump is about the transactional nature of his. His support for someone. We've always known that the only litmus test for Trump, whether he likes you is if you like him. Yes, Kim Jong Un does like TikTok. Young people, Muslims in America doesn't matter if you like him. He likes you. By the way, not to be the actually guy. He did not win the youth vote by 34 points. We're in a circle. Which does that leave him alone? I think it was 52, 46 for Paris.

[Crystal Ball]

Let him ask.

[Ryan Grim]

But if he wants to think. If he wants to think that young people supported him by 34 points and he wants to then govern based on what young people want for this country, then Donald Trump, you won young people by 34 points. I actually absolutely don't believe anybody who tells you otherwise.

[Crystal Ball]

One of the funny things is when we were talking with our friend Luigi in the control room on December 4, he said that Trump won 90% of the youth vote, but we never checked it out. Yeah, but it could be true.

[Ryan Grim]

And Luigi said that he really separates Trump from the rest of the oligarchs. Right.

[Crystal Ball]

By starting this bit, you have probably gotten us in so much trouble.

[Ryan Grim]

Although I didn't start the bit, people would probably know that I'm just referencing memes on Facebook and elsewhere of all these people saying, like, just wanted to talk about this cool December 4th morning I had with my friend Luigi down in San Antonio. We got coffee. We. We did the little walk on the river there.

[Crystal Ball]

You brought the bit here.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Crystal Ball]

You'll have to accept that blame.

[Ryan Grim]

That's fair enough. In any event, I think TikTok has a chance of surviving for this reason. The Deep State had wanted to ban TikTok for a very long time because they don't control it. China's got its influence over there, and they don't like having their US News media. They want US News media to be the sovereign domain of our corporate overlords, not our Chinese overlords. But they could never get any traction with that belief until after October 7th. After October 7th, people were able to see people in Gaza who they connected with in a parasocial way being slaughtered on a daily basis. And it turned the public who was getting their news from TikTok off of the genocide. Like it convinced them that what they were being told in the sanitized version of the news did not comport with what was actually happening on the ground. That's when they were able to get bipartisan buy in to pass the legislation to force a sale, which they're saying they won't sell it, so therefore they will shut it down. I think now that they basically are successful in their genocide and nobody's going to stop them, that the main thrust behind the ban is kind of gone. So maybe they'll give it a reprieve. What do you think?

[Crystal Ball]

I don't know. I mean, just wait until we start talking more about China and the drones. Right. Republican, Republican and Democrats. Like this is there.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. And Michael McCall is saying.

[Crystal Ball]

Michael McCall yesterday.

[Ryan Grim]

That's news.

[Crystal Ball]

That was news last night. He said it was likely Chinese technology or likely Chinese drones, which I, I don't know why he's saying that without. It's just we've heard.

[Ryan Grim]

We were only told they were Iranian drones.

[Crystal Ball]

We were told they were Iranian.

[Ryan Grim]

From Jack Van Drew, a transportation secretary, a Transportation committee member, which like get out of here with your.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

I don't know who told.

[Crystal Ball]

He said someone told him that.

[Ryan Grim]

He said I'm on the committee and I talk to people, talk to people in the business. You know, he's talking to some drone company owner.

[Crystal Ball]

So when McFaul came out and said that last night, my Spidey's senses went up. I mean, maybe.

[Ryan Grim]

So now this has come from the intelligence side.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, maybe. But I just, I think your point about control is really important.

[Ryan Grim]

And I actually Biden commented on. Said he doesn't know.

[Crystal Ball]

I like my. I have a very unpopular take on this. I've said that TikTok should be banned for a long time, but not for any of these reasons. And the TikTok bill is such a disaster. Like it was just a. I didn't support any of that because it was complete deep state overreach.

[Ryan Grim]

I think all social media should be banned from people under like 16 or something.

[Crystal Ball]

I'm getting close to that.

[Ryan Grim]

So my. Because it's a collective action problem, as a parent, I'm completely failing when it comes to my kids and social media parents can't do it alone. So I think that the deal, the grand bargain that we should strike with China and Trump's already talking about us and China together can do great things for the world. So here should be the deal. We will allow TikTok to continue, but Chairman Xi gets to regulate our children's social media consumption in China. It's like you get one hour on Friday, one hour on Saturday. I think that includes video games, but.

[Crystal Ball]

You know, they just pump government propaganda into the cause. It's a totally different.

[Ryan Grim]

But it's only an hour. Fine.

[Crystal Ball]

You want your kids getting US Government.

[Ryan Grim]

Propaganda if it's only for an hour on Friday and Saturday?

[Crystal Ball]

It's like Top Gun 2 clips.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, whatever. Fine. So I would I look at China's regulation of social media for their kids and I'm so jealous.

[Crystal Ball]

Mm.

[Ryan Grim]

Like they've. They've got that under control. So if we can outsource that to Xi, then we'll let TikTok keep going. Hi everyone.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Kotb from the Today Show. We love this time of year. There's so much to celebrate.

[Ryan Grim]

That's right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Nobody does the holidays quite like today all season long. Join us for special performances with the brightest stars. Plus festive recipes to whip up the perfect holiday feast. And great deals on the hottest toys and gifts for everyone on your list. So join us every morning on NBC to make today your home for the holidays.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Attention parents and grandparents. Are you searching for the perfect gift for your kids this holiday season? Give the adventure that will last all year long. A Guardian bike. The easiest, safest and quickest bikes for kids to learn on. Kids are learning to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. What makes Guardian bikes special? They're the easiest to ride thanks to the thoughtful engineering, lightweight frames and kid friendly components. Kids love how fun and easy they are to ride and parents appreciate the safety features like the patented braking system that prevents head over handlebar accidents. Guardian bikes are the only kids bikes designed and assembled in a USA factory. Ensuring top notch quality and durability. They're built to last and make perfect hand me downs. Make holiday gifting stress free with Guardian bikes with guaranteed one to two day shipping for just $29. You can trust your gift will arrive in time to create magical memories this holiday season. Plus sign up for their newsletter to receive a free bike lock and pop with your first purchase. The perfect stocking stuffer for any kid on your list. Visit guardianbikes.com to secure the ultimate holiday gift today. Happy riding, Ryan.

[Crystal Ball]

I've been excited over the last couple of days to get your take on what went down in the back rooms of the Democratic House Caucus when Gerry Connolly just snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Victory for himself. Defeat arguably for the Democratic Party when he took chairmanship of the House Oversight or ranking member of the House Oversight Committee from Alexandria, Ocasio Cortez, who wanted the job.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. So the backstory here is Jamie Raskin had this position as top Democrat on Oversight Committee. He moved over to take the top spot on the Judiciary Committee, which is kind of higher, higher ranking spot. He and AOC are very close. He had made AOC the vice chair, which is a kind of position that he made up, but came with real authority on the committee and ability to, to learn the operation of it and how to get things done and how to do oversight, both towards the law enforcement direction, the subpoena direction, but also using the committee as a platform for creating political controversy and narratives and videos, which is like 99% of Congress's job at this point.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, and Jim Jordan used it very effectively as well. When you're in the minority, you still have a lot of, of power if you're on oversight because you're just driving different investigative narratives.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. And so if the vote were just up to the Oversight Committee, Democrats there, they're mostly all AOC allies win. That overwhelmingly goes to the steering committee, which is a kind of secretive leadership situation where she never had a shot there. But then you can challenge it and take it to the entire caucus and we can put up the results of that caucus vote, which just happened. She lost 131 to 84. And so later today. But it'll air on Friday, Thursday, if you're at a premium. We'll be interviewing Greg Cassar, congressman from Texas, who is the new chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. The Progressive Caucus has, we'll ask him, 95 members, 100, something like that. It has more than 84. So in other words, so these are secret ballots, by the way. So nobody knows how people voted. AOC didn't even win the entire Progressive Caucus. That shows. But. And she's close with a decent number of People who are not in the Progressive Caucus, actually. So Connolly did, you know, fairly well creeping into the cpc.

[Crystal Ball]

So how explain that. That, I think is probably very puzzling.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, and we'll talk to Kassar about this. The Progressive Caucus for many Democrats is a branding exercise to just tell people back at home that they're progressive, which.

[Crystal Ball]

Is the opposite of the Freedom Caucus, which actually, like, pretty rigorously enforces.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. And they kicked out Marjorie Taylor Greene even. Right. Yeah. There have been some efforts by Perilla Jayapal to tighten. To tighten kind of conditions for getting in. You have to support two thirds of the things that, you know, that they, you know, complicated litmus test, but a lot of room for letting people walk. And on the one hand, like, there are circumstances like Matt Cartwright who lost RIP it was Scranton Progressive who kept winning this Trump district. And progressives would say, okay, look, there are going to be some things he's not with us on because he represents this kind of rural Pennsylvania district, but he's for Medicare for all, he's for Green New. He's for all this stuff, and he's a populist Democrat. He's the kind we want. That's a good argument. But a lot of other Democrats use that argument to smuggle in a lot of corporate behavior. What really happened here, though, was predictable from the very beginning, and that is that AOC ousted Joe Crowley, came in in a way that is unacceptable to her colleagues. Came in unforgivable and unforgivable. Came in with other people who had unforgivable views when it came to Israel and Palestine, Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar, and then proceeded to continue to endorse some primary challenges to sitting Democrats. Not as many as the left would like, not as early as the organizations would like, but far more than was acceptable to incumbent Democrats. The acceptable number of primary challenges for incumbent Democrats is zero, with the asterisk being. It's okay if you want a primary. Cori Bush, Jamaal Bowman, Elon Omar, Rashida Tlaib, those kinds of incumbent Democrats, you can challenge those. And that's not actually a threat to the Democratic Party. You can still be a team player. Although even there, it's like you didn't have a whole lot of Democrats openly going against Jamaal Bowman and Cori Bush for that reason that there's this, like, omerta within the House, which is, again.

[Crystal Ball]

It is so, so different. And we'll talk about this a little bit, but it's so different from the Republicans, which basically are, I Say this not pejoratively, like a circus. They air their stuff out, which they should.

[Ryan Grim]

Good for them. And so in my book, the Squad, I interviewed a lot of AOC staff members who said that very early 2019, this was a fundamental question facing her as she came into office. Would she try to get along with her colleagues well, and move up the ranks of the Democratic Party, build power that way, and then use that power for good? Or is she a constant insurgent who uses her platform in the House to build a national movement and just understands that the House is not the place where she's going to exercise her power, but that the House is actually a defanged institution anyway, and that there's more power culturally and politically, at being a national figure. And her. Her staff, who were on the other side of this argument, disagreed with the idea of kind of playing by the rules and moving up through the ranks. Said, it's actually not even a choice for you. There is nothing that you can do to shrink yourself down small enough that they will ever forgive you for what you did. And last night, I wanted to pull up one quote, because I think it's quite prescient from Corbin Trent. If you remember, that was his. Her Tennessee communications director, who had that fun Southern drawl. It was always kind of discordant and fun to hear him, like, representing the Bronx congresswoman. But so he like. So at one point. So this is from the book. He said, Trump, Trent. Corbin Trent said he would often warn Ocasio Cortez that because of the way she had burst onto the scene and because of the threat she represented to others, her hope of being accepted as a member in good standing would always be frustrated. Quote, disarming will not make them happy. He said even if she left politics and became merely an influencer or an MSNBC talking head, he argued, they'd still hunt her until the end of time. He said, quote, the funny thing is it still wouldn't prove to her that it won't work. I just have to get a little smaller so nobody thinks I'm a threat. Okay, sorry again, guys. Sorry again for all this trouble. And so she tried that route of sorry for all this trouble. But look how prepared I am at the Oversight Committee hearings. Look how much good I do for the party. I've gone to Nevada, which we won. I helped Jackie Rosen win in Nevada. You sent me to Pennsylvania with the Puerto Rican population.

[Crystal Ball]

I'm popular on TikTok. Like, these oversight hearings are going viral on TikTok.

[Ryan Grim]

Young people, people absolutely love Me, it is their hook into the Democratic Party. And she kept believing that the Democratic Party cared about any of that, that the Democratic Party cared about winning or doing good things. That's her fundamental disconnect. If you see these members of Congress as just individual power seeking politicians rather than people who are engaged in a collective fight to make the world a better place, then you're gonna analyze the situation. Right. So it's by having too much faith in her colleagues that she. And you found a good post from her Republican friend.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, I was gonna say put that up here. Yeah, let's put the next element up. And as we do, I just wanna say I think it's true. They care about themselves winning. Right. Like Nancy Pelosi cares about. They care about power among their friends. Like Joe Crowley. That's why you want Joe Crowley to win. Not necessarily.

[Ryan Grim]

Although ironically, she was even fine to see Joe Crowley lose because he was gonna challenge for speaker. But she just didn't like the idea that broadly speaking, you're gonna challenge Democrats.

[Crystal Ball]

The block of establishment who are loyal to her. So Tim Burchett, who I believe is Freedom Caucus, but they're like fight club. You're not allowed to. Some of them will say Freedom Caucus, like we know. So some of them are. But I'm happy for us because the Democrats don't realize that in their youth circle she is a rock star. That's what Tim Burchett, a Republican, said of Connolly defeating Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. And there's also David Sirota posted after this happened. Today's reminder that no change agent will be able to quote nice their way to power inside the Democratic Party. Power will have to be ripped away from the establishment. They're not going to give it away in exchange for good manners or being a team player. When I read that, I just think that is so accurate because it reminds me of the exact dynamics that happened with John Boehner and who was going up against John Boehner? Mark Meadows and Jim Jordan. And ultimately Mark Meadows and Jim Jordan. They were not interested in playing nice at all. That was clear. They thought they, the establishment sort of thought that they snuffed out the Tea Party. Donald Trump came along and Democrats, Nancy Pelosi. You're going to get a Donald Trump if you are elevating Connolly over Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and aoc. He's just trying to tell them that. She's trying to say you have to listen to the populists, but at some point you just have to go Completely. You have to go completely outside the structures of power because they don't care.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. Because even from a cynical perspective, Democrats, even for their own individual advancement, should actually have sided with AOC here. Cuz there was reporting that she was telling Democrats that she was going to stop endorsing challenges to incumbents.

[Crystal Ball]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

If you give her the ranking, that's huge. If you give her the ranking seat, you have brought her fully within the tent. Yeah. And she's going to then stop. You know, you have them completely pulled her in and so she's no longer a threat to you in the club. But they hate her and what she represents so much that even if she completely surrenders it, it's not enough for them. So the only question will be, does she respond to this by saying, well, Pelosi was my problem. Once she's gone, I'll be okay because Pelosi organized behind the scenes. And if I just keep showing my colleagues that I care about the party and I care about making the world a better place, that I'm a good person to have on the team, that they will eventually welcome me in. So that's. And maybe she can just outlive them all. Like she's young enough and they're old enough.

[Crystal Ball]

She definitely will.

[Ryan Grim]

So that's one option. They all just actually die. And then she's in her 50s and there's all these people in their 30s and 40s who kind of came up in politics admiring her. That's one path. The other is to say, they're never going to accept me.

[Crystal Ball]

They are never going to accept you.

[Ryan Grim]

And I'm going to build my power base as the leader of a movement which was the kind of Bernie Sanders wing of the party was the Elizabeth Warren wing before that. Now I'm gonna make it the AOC wing and then that's gonna be my power base. So, like that's an option that's in front of her and we'll, we'll get to see where it goes.

[Crystal Ball]

She knows that voter sentiments are way closer to her than they are to Nancy Pelosi, the base of the party. And so what she should realize is that maybe she, I mean, I don't know, it sounds like she doesn't realize this, but the House Freedom Caucus operated as a block. It said, we are taking the Tea Party sentiments because we recognize they are what is popular with our voters. And we are going to, we are going to vote in lockstep. They're losing their ability to do that. We should report right here the House and Senate released a 1500 page NDAA. Or basically it would fund the government. The government will shut down on Friday at midnight if a bill is not passed to continue funding the government. And Mike Johnson has put out a bill in order to hit the 72 hour review rule. It's kind of funny how he's being hampered by the concessions that Kevin McCarthy made to people like Mike Johnson and then more broadly to the Freedom Caucus specifically to become speaker, which was putting conservatives on the Rules Committee. So that's Trip, Roy Thomas Massie, who are now thwarting the parliamentary procedure of how Johnson ends up getting this bill to fund the government through. So that's just an amusing little takeaway that only happened because the Freedom Caucus operated as a block. That is if the squad, if there was something between the squad and the Congressional Progressive Caucus, that's like a middle size between squad, which is too small to operate as a block, and the cpc which is like two sprawling to be in lockstep on progressive priorities. They would be so powerful.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, it was headed in that direction and in 2022, a ton of them got nuked by AIPAC and DMFI. So it was a real.

[Crystal Ball]

I mean, the squad was growing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean like it's. You can't. You can't.

[Ryan Grim]

Which is the final chapters in that book.

[Crystal Ball]

Even if it's smart for them to put you in the club, they don't want you in the club. Yeah, they don't want you in the club. So good luck.

[Ryan Grim]

And they're never gonna.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah. And by the way, changing and reforming the entire system, this entire. Mike Johnson, who was Freedom Caucus adjacent, he wasn't in the Freedom Caucus, but he talked like a lot of them. He's now putting an omnibus out that is full of pork that Republicans said they would not do and he's forcing them to vote on it. He's probably gonna have to work with Democrats. So is it have anti establishment Republicans changed the system through the Freedom Caucus and through saying screw John Boehner, we're working outside of the halls of power. No, but they're getting closer and at the very least they've set the standard that this is not acceptable. And Democrats don't have anything like that right now.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Hi, everyone, it's Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Kotb from the Today Show. We love this time of year. There's so much to celebrate.

[Ryan Grim]

That's right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Nobody does the holidays quite like today all season long. Join us for special performances with the brightest stars. Plus festive recipes to whip up the perfect holiday feast and great deals on the hottest toys and gifts for everyone on your list. So join us every morning on NBC to make today your home for the holidays.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Gifting is hard, but here's a hint. Give the gift of connection from US Cellular. Not sure what that means? Here's a slightly more specific can choose four free phones and get four lines for $90 a month from US Cellular. Your family wants new phones? How do we know? They told us. The good news is that compared to wrapping presents, you're great at getting hints. So take the hint and get them four free phones and four lines for $90 a month. US Cellular built for us.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Ryan Grim]

Moving over to Ukraine, Stunning footage emerging out of Moscow and published simultaneously in a bunch of Ukrainian television networks. So we don't have to wonder about how the footage was taken or what happened here. We can roll this VO here. So this is the moment that General Igor Kirillov, who's basically in charge of Russia's nuclear protection force, is walking out of his. There you see it walking out of a building and boom.

[Crystal Ball]

And if you're listening to it, yeah, you just see snow covering snow and debris covering the camera all of a sudden.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. And so this is happening as Zelenskyy is huddling with European leaders, doing everything he can to try to get as much support in place for his war effort as possible before Trump takes office. But meanwhile Things are collapsing politically around him. Not only is Trump coming into office in Washington, you have Trudeau on his way out. We're gonna talk about that in a moment. Trudeau on his way out in Canada. Canada has been one of the really top, top Western supporters of the Ukrainian war effort, and I think has the third largest population of Ukrainians in the world, including Ukraine. And you have the German Chancellor, Scholz, on his way out, which is. And he's probably going to be replaced by what is the Christian Democratic Union, whatever they call that center right party over in Germany, which has actively been saying that they want to reduce support for the Ukraine war effort. You've got Macron in trouble in France. And so the writing is clearly on the wall when it comes to Western support for this war effort. Meanwhile, Ukraine is running out of Ukrainians to throw into the trenches here, while the Russian economy and the Ukrainian economy is in complete collapse, as any economy would be facing these circumstances and just completely propped up by NATO financing, whereas Russia's economy is not completely booming off the walls, but they're doing well. Putin is facing no political backlash to speak of. It's not as if his position is threatened. His goals continue to remain achievable. So. So looking like a complete mess and Trump just the other day calling for an immediate ceasefire in Ukraine. A sign of what I think is some desperation comes from a recent tweet and video. We can put this up as just a vo. This is related to this charge by Western allies that North Korea has surged a bunch of, like, Special Forces operatives into, you know, to support the Russian cause. A couple weeks ago, I repeated that on this show because I thought it was just a fact. Like, I thought it was like, a publicly known fact and that North Korea was like, that. North Korea wasn't denying it. Nobody was denying it. Like, this is what we're doing. It turns out. No, like, it turns out that this is an argument that Ukraine and Ukraine supporters in the US have been making in order to try to gin up support for the war effort. And it seems. I was like, wait a minute, that's what this is.

[Crystal Ball]

Are you saying that the claims are exaggerated or that.

[Ryan Grim]

Or it may not even be true? So there's no evidence that North Koreans are actually fighting in Russia other than these claims that are being made. And so what we showed you there was Zelenskyy tweeting that the reason that there's no. They have been able to provide zero evidence that there are North Koreans participating in this assault is that Russia has been deleting all the videos and that they've been burning the faces of the Korean troops who've been killed so that Ukraine can't then get the bodies and prove to the world that this claim they made about North Koreans being there. And I don't know if you believe that. I don't know what to tell you. That's where you are at this point. You're saying that they're burning their faces, and so they put up a little bit of video that purports to show something along those lines. And it's like, I don't know, man. And the reason I repeat it on the show is I just thought it was true. I just thought, like, oh, North Korea's sending some troops because Russia asked them to do that. Okay, fine, we should end this war. But the source of this has been NATO sources saying that North Korea is doing this, therefore we need to ramp up more funding for this war, which is like, that's how far removed I am from the propaganda here, because it's like, I don't even see how that's a persuasive argument. I don't even get the idea that that's a persuasive argument. To me, your position on whether or not this war should continue shouldn't be changed whether or not there's some North Korean special forces involved?

[Crystal Ball]

Well, it's actually, I think the opposite. I think that's what's interesting about this line, which is they think. They're convinced that what this means is we need to give. People will respond to this and say, oh, my gosh, yes, please send all of the money to Ukraine. Let's continue this war. Let's defeat Putin. He is now engaging. This is like Axis of Evil. I think that's what they assume people interpret it as.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes. Yeah.

[Crystal Ball]

Whereas a lot of people look at it like, you're kidding me. There's another nuclear power involved.

[Ryan Grim]

Stop.

[Crystal Ball]

So out of touch. The New York Times reported yesterday on a general, U.S. general who's Air Force Major General Pat Ryder, the Pentagon spokesman told reporters on Monday that the North Koreans had entered combat last week in Kursk, and they assessed that North Korean soldiers have engaged in combat and have indications they have suffered casualties, both killed and wounded. Reportedly, I think they think it's around 30 casualties, something like that. The New York Times, to something we talked about earlier in the show, said those claims could not be independently verify.

[Ryan Grim]

Because they're burning their faces. Like, are you kidding me? Like. And look, if North Korea is sending troops to Russia. Like, it's not as if I believe that North Korea has some, like, morality that would prevent it from allowing its special forces to become mercenaries for Russia. Sure, they'd be fine to do that, but we need a little evidence. And this, like, claims could not be corroborated. That's one thing. When you go and say your claims could not be corroborated because Russia is destroying video evidence and burning the faces of the Korean soldiers, that's when I'm like, hold on a second. That makes no sense.

[Crystal Ball]

It actually, I mean, North Korea's involvement isn't entirely surprising, but it wouldn't be.

[Ryan Grim]

I mean, sure, like, but if they're not involved, we shouldn't say that. They are definitely not.

[Crystal Ball]

Definitely not.

[Ryan Grim]

I mean, and look, maybe. Maybe I'm totally wrong. There's some. And the US Military is telling the truth for once. But we need some evidence. And the excuse for there not being evidence really cannot be that the Russians are burning the faces of the people.

[Crystal Ball]

Killed, which is in the Zoroastrian.

[Ryan Grim]

How do you do? Come on. How do you do that? They're all walking around with gas cans.

[Crystal Ball]

No idea.

[Ryan Grim]

I just find that. And. And you still would have the rest of the person even if you burn their face. Oh, face is burned. Can't tell who this is.

[Crystal Ball]

Right or right. Like uniforms.

[Ryan Grim]

And there are other things. I don't know. Maybe we're as stupid as they think they are. We think they are. They think we are.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Hi, everyone. It's Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Kotb from the Today Show. We love this time of year. There's so much to celebrate.

[Ryan Grim]

That's right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Crystal Ball]

Speaking of stupid people, this is a good transition to Justin Trudeau.

[Ryan Grim]

Smart dude.

[Crystal Ball]

Nailed it.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, no, he's a smart. You can say what you want about it.

[Crystal Ball]

He's a smart. You think he's smart?

[Ryan Grim]

Oh yeah. No, go watch when he. Yeah, you think he's kind of a bimbo or something?

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah. You think he's like a sort of snowy Gavin Newsom?

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, he's read books.

[Crystal Ball]

He's read books.

[Ryan Grim]

I bet he's read books.

[Crystal Ball]

He's read like Gone Girl.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, by the way, I do have to like I totally face planted during that interview that we did with Guy Stewart, the Syrian who went to fight in Syria. I was making fun of our audience for not reading and told everybody that they should go read. I thought I was saying for whom the Bell.

[Crystal Ball]

Oh yeah, that was bad.

[Ryan Grim]

So I'm blaming Guy since he's not here. So Guy was saying that there's this character in the book that keeps talking about Maunana, which is. There's a similar phrase in Kurdish that's from for whom the Bell Tolls. Obviously people say manana in George Orwell's book Homage to Catalonia, but it's much more of a thing in For Whom the Bell Tolls. Manana. Manana, which is by Ernest Hemingway. And it's a great book. But I've conflated Homage to Catalonia and Ernest and from the Bell Tolls while making fun of young people for not reading is utterly embarrassing.

[Crystal Ball]

So it's Quite all right. I mean, none of us caught it. There's three of us here and none of us caught it. The audience caught it right away, though.

[Ryan Grim]

Of course they did.

[Crystal Ball]

Well read audience.

[Ryan Grim]

But actually they didn't cat that. They're like, no, dude, that's by George Orwell. The actual own would have been, no, dude, that's for Whom the Bell Tolls.

[Crystal Ball]

That's the actual.

[Ryan Grim]

Cause I said it was an American who went to fight in Spain.

[Crystal Ball]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

George Orwell's not an American.

[Crystal Ball]

No. So you had that part right. Yeah, just a lot of jumbled. People are easy to confuse. It's fair.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. You guys tried doing four hours of shows straight.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, exactly. This is. We're about to talk here about the German Chancellor, Justin Trudeau.

[Ryan Grim]

Exactly.

[Crystal Ball]

Did you catch that one?

[Ryan Grim]

Good one.

[Crystal Ball]

So not a good one at all, but Justin Trudeau has. Justin Trudeau is facing very serious calls for his resignation. Very serious calls for his resignation. We can put first element up on the screens from the BBC. His finance minister quit, resigned. And this is, as the BBC puts it in the headline, all coming amidst a, quote, spat over Trump. The Trump threat, obviously, being the tariffs. And his finance minister resigned, she said, because he's prioritizing political gimmicks, meaning he flew down to Mar A Lago and sort of made nice with Donald Trump. And then the two have exchanged barbs ever since because Trudeau realized that his own party was furious about that. So this is a significant threat to his party, a significant threat to his leadership. Ryan, how do you think this is going to shake out for Trudeau?

[Ryan Grim]

I will say, to give Trump credit, it is funny when he calls him Governor Trudeau. Oh, my God. And calls the great state of Canada.

[Crystal Ball]

It's hilarious.

[Ryan Grim]

That's good stuff. Yeah. So he asked Krista Friedland to step down as Minister of Finance and take a different cabinet position. She said no. And then she timed her vicious resignation letter for maximum political damage to him. Basically, what her argument is is that, you know, the game is on. Like, Trump is coming for us. This is an existential threat. It's 25% tariff. Canada needs to be put aside all of our different differences and completely unite against Trump right now. The same way that they did say when they were renegotiating nafta, that we need to collectively fight for this because this is gonna set our path for a generation or more. And she's saying we need to harbor as many of our resources, financial resources, as we can in order to be ready for the trade war that they believe that they should have to try to back Trump down from these tariffs because Trump's predicate here is kind of ridiculous. He's saying that he's going to slap these 25% tariffs, tariffs on Canada because its border's insecure. Come on. Stop with. Seriously. You're like, the Trump base really wants a wall all the way across the northern Canada. Like northern U.S. and southern Canada. Really? That's what we're gonna do? Come on. Also, if it's a state, if it's just another state and he's the governor, we don't have walls between our states. None of it makes any sense.

[Crystal Ball]

Not yet.

[Ryan Grim]

Freeland's argument was, look, we can win this if we stand up to him. Cuz he's not really serious about us. He'd rather take on China and Europe and Mexico.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, he's willing to negotiate too.

[Ryan Grim]

I mean, also, they need like we, the usmca, we need their wood, their oil, like we need. There are imports from Canada. Maple syrup because it's not getting cold enough in Vermont. There are imports that we need from Canada that putting a giant tariff on is not going to do anything for domestic manufacturing. New England is making as much maple syrup as it can. Like putting a tariff on Canadian maple syrup is just going to let them charge us more.

[Crystal Ball]

I'm going to be honest. I like the cheap maple syrup that RFK Jr. Is probably about to ban. I don't even need.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, the corn syrup stuff. One of my daughters like, says, I'm like, what are you doing? Stop it. Stop it right now. Come on. So the opposition reader, same with the timber and the like oil and natural resources. Like, what's the point of a tariff on that?

[Crystal Ball]

Well, but here's. I actually think to your point about whether Trudeau is smart or stupid, I sort of think he's handling this in a smarter way than raging against Trump's, quote, economic nationalism, which is what Friedland did in her resignation.

[Ryan Grim]

We put up F2 here. Yeah, this is, this is about her resigning.

[Crystal Ball]

Right. And I mean, there's Trump is the one way that you don't get a deal with Donald Trump is by going full, like, elite, knocking him and treating him like he's dirt. All of that. That's like a really bad way to get something in your country's interest from the incoming president. They can't prevent Donald Trump becoming the President of the United States. They have to work with Donald Trump. And we saw him negotiate a lot with amlo, with, with usmca. They can Get a good deal out of Donald Trump. And I think that's why Trudeau, to your point about maybe him being smart, maybe he is the winter Gavin Newsom flew down to Mar a Lago and tried to actually work something out. Now, was it a little embarrassingly. What's the right word? Sycophantic, maybe? It might have been. I'm sure that's what caused a lot of ripples in Canadian politics. Probably wasn't a different way that he could have done it, although I don't know if Trump would have allowed it to be done a different way without that photo op at the dinner table. But Donald Trump is the president. Like, it's as simple as that. You have to work with the incoming president. And Trudeau's popularity, according to BBC, in June of this year, it was at 28%. 28% Canada.

[Ryan Grim]

He's overstayed his welcome. I mean, he's been there forever.

[Crystal Ball]

The vibes have shifted. There was a great piece recently about how Trudeau and Obama like the center left, as we were talking about. We will be talking about Schultz and Macron in this block. The center left had its moment where it was riding high and felt really good. And it looked like Trudeau was the future and Trudeau would be like the. He was setting the tone for the future of Canada. And I think this was in a piece about Angela Merkel and her new book. And that has collapsed. That vision of the future has completely collapsed. And it's one that the sort of Davos set was really optimistic about because it meant they had control. And that moment has totally faded from Western politics, to say the very least. So his opposition, the opposition leader in this case, whose last name I can't say, Pierre Paulivre, I never can say it, but he is a very formidable opponent. He has a robust presence online. Support from American conservatives now goes viral a lot.

[Ryan Grim]

But he hid like a. A barn burner speech. And whatever their congress is yesterday.

[Crystal Ball]

Whatever the Congress is, well, they're a state, so they don't.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. They're state legislature.

[Crystal Ball]

If you haven't seen the video of him like munching on an apple while just destroying a reporter, highly recommend looking that one up. But he is his support from American conservatives. But more importantly, all of that stems from him just being very articulate. He makes his case really well. He's a good ambassador for his ideas. Canada's next federal election, according to BBC, must be held in October at the very latest. He is calling for opposition party, is calling for earlier elections Trudeau is facing calls from his own party to resign. It is just a complete mess. And maybe as that Politico headline suggested, the chaos is good for Canada because they need something other than Trudeau.

[Ryan Grim]

And so if we can put up F3 here, this is an interesting wrinkle here amid all this collapse, their dollar is crashing. That has interesting implications for Trump's attempt to do a trade war. So when your dollar crashes or when your currency crashes, then your exports are cheaper. So what this means is Canadian products that get exported, let's say into the United States, we can buy them cheaper. Trump then has his tariffs kind of defanged. So the goal of a tariff is to basically raise the price of something for domestic consumers, which then encourages domestic production of that thing. Like we said, when it comes to Canada, some of that's ridiculous because maple syrup, wood, et cetera. But whatever, setting that aside, it just means that if you're, your currency collapses by 25% and then you come in with a 25% tariff, we actually have to come in with now closer to a 35% tariff because of math, in order just to get it back to where you were originally. So all the jawboning between Trump and Trudeau, which is driving down their dollar, actually makes it then harder for Trump to do what he's trying to do with his, with his tariffs. Currently it's doing the reverse. It's like a reverse tariff. Now over in Germany, we're subsidizing their exports right now. And over in through Trump's mouth in.

[Crystal Ball]

Germany, Chancellor Olaf Scholz has lost a vote of confidence. And the fallout from that is continuing as well in the Parliament. So this really, Ryan, to your point about the center left, Macron right now is struggling with the center left coalition that he cobbled together. The weirdest coalition that we sort of covered a lot when it was happening, but in this case with Schulz, kind of interesting that it's happening during Angela Merkel's book tour. By the way. That's not great timing. Or maybe it is great timing, but maybe it's going to help her sell books. But as NPR reports, Schulz's fractious three party coalition government collapsed in early November when the Chancellor fired his finance minister. Sound familiar? In a dispute over how to revitalize Germany's stagnant economy. Where does this go, do you think?

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, and so this is heavily Ukraine related in the sense that, that he wanted to bust through. Germany loves its deficit controls, loves its Russian oil. Well, they love the Russian Oil. But yes, the German culture just hates to spend beyond what it believes are its means. But he wanted to do so for the ongoing Ukraine war. And his coalition collapsed basically as, as a result of that.

[Crystal Ball]

His coalition was with the Green Party too though, like it's interesting.

[Ryan Grim]

And the Greens have been very militaristic too. The reason that he has this bizarre coalition is that the far right, the far, far right party is picking up now like 1512 to 15% of the parliament. And nobody will form a coalition with the far, far right. Good for them. Germany has a troubled history when it comes to the far right, the far right. And so that leaves then less of the parliament to form a coalition. It makes it very hard for anybody to have a majority government that can actually do anything. And it's gonna get especially interesting next time. Cause this afd, the far right party, is expected to grow to maybe 20%.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, and it's a vicious cycle because the less or the more that you have stagnant center left, mealy mouths, they can't deliver anything. Right. The more, exactly the more powerful AFD gets and the more fuel you're adding to the fire. So it's, I mean, they're in like the exact definition of a pickle right now.

[Ryan Grim]

And it looks like the far left might be able to barrel its way into the parliament too, through. People have probably been following her. Sarah Wagonnecht, this like kind of firebrand leftist who. Wagen Wagenecht, whatever. She's this firebrand leftist who like East German. She joined the Communist party back when there was still in East Germany.

[Crystal Ball]

She's like you.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, there you go, Bernie. Except she has gone hardcore anti immigrants.

[Crystal Ball]

Not uncommon in Europe.

[Ryan Grim]

But she's kept all the other left wing stuff but become like super German nativist. And it's an interesting test for that kind of politics which are being upended now by Syria. By Syria. Because so many Syrians are like, they're like, yeah, we literally, you thought we were lying. Like, we literally are refugees. We would rather be in Syria. Now that we can go back to Syria. We're going to go back to Syria. But a lot of them have been there 10 years, have built businesses and have built roots. And so some are, a significant number are going to stay. So if she barrels in with 10, 15%, AFD's got 20%. You'd have to have basically every other, every other party would have to team up together to form a government. But those parties don't agree with each other. So functionally, what do you do Right. Guess we'll find out.

[Crystal Ball]

Donald Trump enters office once again at a very precarious time in geopolitical history.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, I mean, Europe screwed, as Sagr likes to say. Europe is just completely screwed.

[Crystal Ball]

Yes, yes. Well. And that's why I think Breaking Points works, is because it's a good example of how the US May be better positioned to not follow in the failed path of Europe. And that's failures on the left.

[Ryan Grim]

We really kind of. The grass is always greener on the other side. And like over here, left and right, I think both kind of love the parliamentary system because. Because it allows you to vote your conscience and support. Let's say if you're on the right, whichever flavor of right you like, you vote for them and then they get a little piece of the parliament. So it means you don't have to, you know, if you're on the left and you don't. But you don't like Joe Biden, you vote for the Bernie Party or there's some technocratic, like, left Warren Party. And then there's the. Whatever Biden is.

[Crystal Ball]

Like AOC said in Europe, she would never be in the same place.

[Ryan Grim]

She would not be in the. And that's correct. She would not be.

[Crystal Ball]

We saw that play out this week.

[Ryan Grim]

So we. We kind of pine for that. On the other hand, it has its problems. Huge stagnant, which we're seeing.

[Crystal Ball]

I mean, we feel like we're stagnant. We can't pass anything through our own Congress. But what gets worse is when you have the seesaw effect. You're changing a lot, and nothing's really changing. Like policies just swing back and forth.

[Ryan Grim]

We pass all our stuff in December of after elections.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, right. Yeah. That's the way we do things.

[Ryan Grim]

So when voters.

[Crystal Ball]

We really get it.

[Ryan Grim]

Voters don't get a say anymore. Yeah.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah. Well, Ryan, we're all pulling for you to close the loop on the beginning of the show. And I'm just amazed at you and your family how you're able to keep going and bring us the news.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, well, we'll look back on this. It'll be a thing that happened.

[Crystal Ball]

Absolutely.

[Ryan Grim]

That's the hope.

[Crystal Ball]

Absolutely. We will be back with one more show before the new year because Ryan booked a great guest, a huge guest.

[Ryan Grim]

I feel like he's chairman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, Greg Cassar, incoming chairman from Austin, Texas, and we will.

[Crystal Ball]

That's a Friday show, so we're going to sit down with him for a good long conversation about a lot of what we discussed without having a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus here to kind of talk about the future and tactics and strategy in recent news as well. So that'll be fascinating, Ryan, especially on the cusp of a government shutdown, by the way. So lots to talk about with Greg Kassar. Tune in on Friday for that. BreakingPoints.com if you want to get a premium membership, you get access to Counterpoints Friday shows early. You get to watch them on Thursday night, which when we have a lawmaker is cool because you actually get access to breaking news.

[Ryan Grim]

There you go.

[Crystal Ball]

All right, breakingpoints.com, we will be back here Friday with more and we'll see you after the holiday break with more. Count Counterpoints.

[Ryan Grim]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

Empathy is our best policy.

[Ryan Grim]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

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