12/18/25: Trump Blames Economy On Biden, Trump Venezuela WMD Lies, Epstein Files, Healthcare Costs Spike

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – Episode Summary

Date: December 18, 2025
Episode: "Trump Blames Economy On Biden, Trump Venezuela WMD Lies, Epstein Files, Healthcare Costs Spike"

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Episode Overview

Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti tackle a packed news day, analyzing President Trump’s latest speech on the economy, debunking Venezuela war rumors and oil justifications, previewing significant Epstein file releases, and unpacking the chaotic state of U.S. healthcare costs and Congressional gridlock. They are joined by Congressman Ro Khanna for insights into Venezuela, congressional war powers, and the Epstein release. The duo also highlights the ongoing Republican Party rifts and notable moments on Capitol Hill.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s “Emergency” Economy Speech – Blame & Frustration (02:21—21:04)

Main Takeaways:

• Speculation on Venezuela Attack: Rumors swirled on social media and right-wing outlets that Trump would announce military action against Venezuela. In reality, he delivered a rushed, agitated campaign-style speech focused on blaming Biden for ongoing economic woes.
• Speech Tone & Content: Trump was described as “rushed and angry,” rehashing old campaign talking points, attempting to recast the narrative on inflation and credit for the economy.
• Tariffs and ‘Warrior Dividend’:
  • Trump floated a new “warrior dividend” — a $1,776 payment to every active-duty service member, ostensibly funded by tariff revenues.
  • Saagar and Krystal discussed the looming Supreme Court case expected to strike down those tariffs and the likely logistical chaos around potential refunds.
• Economic Data & Polling: The hosts break down new jobs data and polls showing low public approval for Trump’s handling of the economy. Promises of a “manufacturing renaissance” have not materialized; instead, manufacturing job loss has accelerated.
• Public Sentiment: Both hosts emphasize that politicians cannot “gaslight” Americans into thinking the economy is better than their lived reality.
• Memorable Quotes:
  • Krystal: “He was one minute late, by the way, which every minute after 9pm… I had to stay up for this shit.” (06:16)
  • Saagar: “You can gaslight people on any number of things… but on their own economic condition, that is one thing that is gonna be very hard.” (15:32)

Timestamps:

• Venezuela attack speculation: 02:21—07:45
• Speech breakdown and analysis: 06:16—13:30
• Polling and economic reality: 15:49—19:41

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2. Venezuela, Oil, and WMD Rhetoric (23:45—33:02)

Main Takeaways:

• War Drum Debunked: The rumored Venezuela attack is thoroughly rejected as baseless. Social media, not any administration source, pushed it.
• Trump’s Oil Justification: Trump claims Venezuela “took all our oil and we want it back.” Krystal ridicules this, noting that U.S. companies (like Chevron) are still exporting Venezuelan oil under special Biden administration licenses.
  • “If the core goal was to get the oil and the leader said, you can have the oil, then what the hell are we all doing here? … That would make more sense.” (24:22)
• Political Drivers: The hosts view the push as coming from hardliners like Marco Rubio, not a legitimate national interest.
• Sabre-Rattling vs. Real War: Saagar suggests Trump may just want to saber-rattle for leverage. Krystal points to the pressure campaign within Trump’s inner circle: he "has to finish the job" or be seen as weak (28:35).
• Legal and Political Binds:
  • Trump’s blockade applies only to sanctioned tankers (about 30% of total traffic), not a full blockade.
  • Risk of escalation and the constraints of U.S. law and Congress looming over any potential escalation.
• Memorable Quotes:
  • Krystal: “This is about Marco Rubio… He believes in the 1960s domino theory that if we knock off Venezuela, then Cuba will be next. That’s the level of stupid we’re all dealing with.” (26:15)
  • Saagar: “I think we also have to give some credence to Ryan’s theory…[Trump] actively wants another migrant crisis … because he thinks that benefits Republicans politically.” (27:13)

Timestamps:

• Trump’s oil rhetoric: 24:07—27:13
• Analysis of real motivations: 27:13—31:48

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3. War Powers, Congressional Failure & Ro Khanna Interview (35:52—48:37)

Main Takeaways:

• Narrow War Powers Defeat: Congressman Ro Khanna joins to dissect Congress’s narrow failure to pass a War Powers resolution that would have explicitly prevented military escalation in Venezuela.
  • Only three Republicans joined Democrats; “Congress is really to blame for these endless wars. We are not willing to assert our constitutional authority” (36:34)
• Increased Military Presence: Khanna describes a “provocative” buildup of U.S. forces in the region and warns it can easily spiral into war.
• Unmasking Motivations: Thomas Massie’s congressional speech is played, underscoring the WMD playbook and skepticism about regime change, comparing today’s rhetoric to Iraq and Libya.
  • “Now it’s the same playbook, except we’re told that Drugs are the WMDs. If it were about drugs, we’d bomb Mexico or China or Colombia.” (Massie, 38:55)
• Bipartisan Elite Interests: Oil interests and the political class’s “fear of looking weak” are cited as drivers.
• Memorable Quotes:
  • Ro Khanna: “Several things. One, as [Massie] pointed out, there are oil interests…The Koch brothers have refineries in the Gulf of Mexico that require and need Venezuelan oil…Their profits are being hurt.” (40:10)

Timestamps:

• War Powers vote/interview: 35:52—41:10

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4. Epstein Files Release – Showdown over Transparency (41:10—48:32)

Main Takeaways:

• Epstein Files Preview: Legislation co-sponsored by Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie requires release of grand jury testimony, FBI interviews, and draft indictments relating to Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.
• Elite Accountability: Khanna argues for a full reckoning for Epstein’s “enabler class” across both political parties, citing a culture of elite impunity.
  • Khanna: “We need to get rid of this Epstein class. We need to get rid of the old guard, these people who thought the rules didn’t apply to them. Elite impunity.” (44:44)
• Potential Consequences: If the release is incomplete, Khanna hints at legal actions, including inherent contempt or impeachment for officials obstructing the process.
• MAGA Rift: Dan Bongino’s resignation as deputy FBI director is attributed to failures over the Epstein files and the loss of credibility with the MAGA base.
  • “It’s been the biggest fracture point in the MAGA coalition since Donald Trump walked down the escalator.” (Ro Khanna, 47:16)

Timestamps:

• Epstein files legislative background and stakes: 41:10—44:09
• Dan Bongino/MAGA rift: 46:17—48:32

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5. Healthcare Chaos: ACA Subsidies, GOP Disarray, and Real-World Costs (50:42—65:30)

Main Takeaways:

• Trump’s Healthcare Announcement: Trump touts “unprecedented price reductions” and “TrumpRx.gov” in his speech, blaming Democrats for rising health costs and promising better, cheaper plans.
• Congress in Disarray: A bipartisan contingent of moderate House Republicans sign onto a Democratic discharge petition for ACA (Affordable Care Act) premium subsidy extensions, frustrating Speaker Johnson and threatening GOP unity.
• Real-World Frustration: Krystal and Saagar call out both parties for failing to address the core problem: the high, rising cost of care, with subsidies providing only a “band-aid for a broken system.”
  • “The problem is the cost. Like, if they give you... my deductible is $14,500. The increase in my premiums is 17%. If they were to grant this, like, HSA or whatever grant to a family, it would cover the increase in healthcare… That doesn’t mean you’ve revolutionarily, like, changed my life.” (Krystal, 55:56)
• Political Risks: Republicans are especially vulnerable when healthcare is front and center, due to lack of viable proposals; Democrats’ tactical focus on the ACA subsidies brings the issue back into the spotlight.
• Systemic Complexity: Both hosts emphasize the bewildering, opaque, and unpopular nature of the American health insurance system.
• Memorable Quotes:
  • Saagar: “People come from other countries where they have universal healthcare. They’re like, 'What? What is this? … What is happening here?'” (58:39)

Timestamps:

• Trump speech/ACA subsidies: 50:42—55:23
• Cost realities and political implications: 55:23—65:30

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Krystal Ball (on Venezuela):
  “This is about Marco Rubio…that’s the level of stupid we’re all dealing with. Like Florida, Miami, occupied government.” (26:15)

• Congressman Ro Khanna (on Congress’s war powers failure):
  “Congress is really to blame for these endless wars. We are not willing to assert our constitutional authority.” (36:34)

• Thomas Massie (on regime change wars):
  “Let’s be honest about likely outcomes. Do we truly believe that Nicolas Maduro will be replaced by a modern-day George Washington? How did that work out…in Cuba, Libya, Iraq or Syria?” (38:55)

• Krystal Ball (on healthcare):
  “My deductible is $14,500…the increase in my premiums is 17%. That doesn’t mean you’ve revolutionarily, like, changed my life.” (55:56)

• Ro Khanna (on the Epstein class):
  “We need to get rid of this Epstein class…these people who thought the rules didn’t apply to them. Elite impunity.” (44:44)

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------|-------------| | Venezuela speculation/trump speech | 02:21–21:04 | | Venezuela oil/war analysis | 23:45–33:02 | | Ro Khanna interview (War Powers) | 35:52–41:10 | | Epstein files/elite accountability | 41:10–48:32 | | Healthcare debate | 50:42–65:30 |

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Tone, Style, and Dynamic

The show maintains its signature: irreverent, direct, and deeply skeptical of establishment narratives, whether Republican or Democrat. Both hosts use humor and relatable anecdotes to break down complex policy, interspersed with pointed frustration over “Washington dysfunction.” Their engagement with Ro Khanna is wonky and moralistic—focused on anti-war interventionism and elite accountability.

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a sweeping critique of U.S. political leadership — from Trump’s bluster and shifting economic blame, the farcical Venezuela war narratives, and the bipartisan failures on healthcare, to the anticipation of seismic revelations in the Epstein case. Breaking Points gives listeners a comprehensive, challenging, and entertaining alternative to mainstream coverage, always pressing for transparency and accountability.

If you want honest left-right analysis, detailed policy breakdowns, and sharp takes, this packed episode is a can’t-miss.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

I O hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Krystal Ball]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com Become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com Good morning everybody. Happy Thursday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do you have, Crystal?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Indeed we do. So lots to get into. So yesterday we got word that President Trump was going to give us a speech in the evening that showed me all these rumors from Tucker Carlson and others that he was going to announce a direct attack on Venezuela. So he was very upset. Then he ends up giving this like weird speech on the economy and announcing some things. So we're going to talk about that. We're going to also talk about the continued possibility of direct war with Venezuela. We're going to have Ro Khanna here which is huge because he's been leading the way on Venezuela war powers resolutions. And also the Epstein files are set to be released tomorrow. And Roe of course has been really leading the charge there as well. So really looking forward to speaking with him about what we can expect and what the consequences will be if they do not release everything that they're supposed to release. So we've got that. We have Republicans defecting from Mike Johnson and joining the Democrats on healthcare and kind of things in disarray there. Trump also making some comments about healthcare. Yesterday evening we have some wild comments from Trump and from Miriam Adelson basically her like openly bribing him in public to run for an unconstitutional third term with the help of other Zionist Alan Dershowitz and Epstein associate. So that's a lot to get into. We also have some new plaques installed at the White House which are pretty much the pettiest thing of all time. We will show you that, give you a little update on the White House ballroom as well which I know you guys are all really excited about. And meanwhile Candace Owens met with Erica Kirk, went on her show her audience reaction. She also joined Piers Morgan and talked to him about it as well. There's a whole lot going on there in terms of within the right sort of intra right party conflict that we'll get into that one as well.

[Krystal Ball]

That's your tabloid update here from Breaking Point. But of course it is actually consequent.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's consequential.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, it is consequential. That's right. Thank you to everybody who has been signing up BreakingPoints.com if you are able to for our premium subscribers. And that is when we do have a note for all of you as well. So this is going to be our last in studio show of the year but we're going to have content over the next two weeks. We did tease for our premium subscribers. You guys will be getting early access to some of the holiday stuff we pre recorded. But if news does break then of course you will see us just some guidance there for our premiums. Check your email. It won't be a normal show release. We will just probably we'll be emailing you a link from which you can watch the content whatever we may do. Okay so everybody just keep updated over the next couple weeks before you see Us again. And then for everybody else, please hit subscribe to our YouTube channel if you are able to. It really helps people find the show. And if you're listening to the podcast, helps us grow, go ahead and send an episode to a friend, rate us 5 stars. Really helps people find it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, we're gonna, we're trying to give, you know, the crew and the team as much of a, you know, break as we can. At the same time, if there are significant developments, we also wanna make sure that we keep you guys updated. So we'll be trying to strike that balance. And before we jump into the want to say thank you to all of you guys for an incredible year, for showing us support through any number of different tumultuous news cycles. Thank you so much to the crew here. Thank you to you, Sagar and Ryan and Emily. You know, I feel very fortunate, especially this time of year and reflect on, you know, the things that are important to us. I feel very fortunate to have this space and be able to have the conversations and the debates that we do.

[Krystal Ball]

100% and we just none of it possible without the audience and premium subscribers especially, you enable literally everything that we do. And so just thank you. Seriously, thank. Thank you. Coming up on the holiday season, we are all thinking about you as we go into it. So with that, we're gonna go ahead and jump into the show. As Crystal said, a lot of speculation there about Venezuela. Venezuela, Venezuela. I was personally skeptical the entire time.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, he was.

[Krystal Ball]

I can vouch for him.

[Saagar Enjeti]

On call yesterday, I was like, I don't know, guys, I don't really think so.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, sometimes people get a little ahead of their skis and social media and all that goes wild. And I'm telling you, I spent a lot of the time on the phone yesterday and everyone was like, dude, I don't know where this Venezuela thing is coming from. They're like, it's pretty much just gonna be a campaign speech. And lo and behold, that's exactly what. So here were the very first thing out of Donald Trump's mouth. You knew you were off to the races. He was one minute late, by the way, which every minute after 9pm, I was counting because I still was way past my bedtime and I had to stay up for this shit.

[Donald Trump]

So this is what we had 11 months ago. I inherited a mess and I'm fixing it. When I took office, inflation was the worst in 48 years and some would say in the history of our country, which caused prices to be higher than ever before, making life unaffordable for millions and millions of Americans.

[Krystal Ball]

So there was a lot of that. Basically it was about what, 20 minutes or so. It was basically a campaign speech. You could have ripped it out of anything. Billed as an Oval Office address. The high level is basically Trump and the White House are deeply frustrated about their economy. Poll numbers, period, end of story. That's why Trump recently went to Pennsylvania. He did his affordability speech. J.D. vance. Actually, he went to my wife's hometown, Allentown, Pennsylvania to go in to give a speech. Similarly, to try and make a pitch in these more swingy county like areas which voted for Donald Trump this time around. But previously it voted for Joe Biden. A lot of people not really buying it, didn't particularly go off all that well. This is where the infamous A comments are beginning to make the rounds. And so my top level analysis was. And Yashar Ali tweeted this. I'll take credit for his take. Is like a politician who's angry that he's not getting the credit that he wants and decides to try and to give a speech to recorrect the record.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And yet pretty much everybody else can just be like, okay, that's nice. But as he said in the beginning 11 months ago, it's like, dude, it's just been a long time.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Imagine being Joe Biden as he tried 11 months into his presidency to try and blame it on Donald Trump, which he did. And everyone was like, yeah, man, we're over that. Like, you've just been in power for too long.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, that's right. And especially with how aggressive Trump has been in making his own moves and really taking credit for what he claims. Is this a economy? The speech was weird. I'm curious, do you think that the Venezuela thing was a plant? I saw people speculating that they wanted that planted in the media so that the networks would all cover the speech. You don't think so?

[Krystal Ball]

No, I'm telling you, that was entirely a creation of social media. Nobody at the White House ever once told anyone this.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Had you had the reason, I took it possibly seriously, Tucker, saying, okay, that's one thing, but then you had antiwar.com, which, I mean, they're responsible, you know, journalists, they've broken significant stories, they have good sources in this administration, etcetera, Saying they had heard the same thing. And so I was like, yeah, maybe everyone was checking the, like Pentagon pizza tracker and all that. And of course they've been making all kinds of noises about Venezuela. I mean, that's still very much A live issue and Trump announcing this like blockade of sanctioned, quote unquote, Venezuela oil tankers. So I don't know, I mean, the speech itself was strange because it was very rushed, like his ordinary cadence. He was talking, he was talking really fast, very odd. It was sort of like rushed and angry and frustrated was the vibe. And I mean, I guess that's the appropriate vibe because I think that is how he feels of like, you know, why aren't people giving me credit for this amazing economy? Because he just looks at the stock market. He's like, oh, the stock market's been so high. Things are so great for him and his friends who are like you, polluting the treasury and making all these corrupt global business deals, but still out of touch with where your average American is. And so you had just him trying to make the case and using all his normal, like you said, campaign talking points. He also floated, and this was an interesting one as well, he said they're going to use the tariff revenue to cut service members a check. And that's noteworthy too. And I think could also be responsible for some of the timing here because the Supreme Court is probably set imminently to strike down those tariffs. So then what? And I mean, I think Trump has authority with tariff revenue to just like do what he wants. Cuz it's a little bit outside of the purview of Congress, which has always been. I think one of the things that he liked about the tariffs and having all of these high tariffs is that gives him money that he can personally play with. But then if you're promising something to service members and then with knowledge that it's Supreme Court is going to strike that down, like that money is not going to go out, you're going to have to actually pay that some money back to companies that have been paying these tariffs.

[Krystal Ball]

It's all up in the air.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think that's part of it too.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, it's so up in the air right now. Yeah. So to explain, Trump announced something called a warrior dividend, which would be $1776 for every active duty American service member. I had no issue with that. Especially after the shutdown when you had guys who were literally in uniform having to go to a food bank. Right. It's disgusting. So we got one point something million people who are in uniform. I think they should get paid a lot more. Now that said, with the tariffs like you're talking about, and this gets in the weeds, but it is important, the Supreme Court is likely to rule that the tariffs were unconstitutional or to Strike them down. Now, there are multiple different return scenarios. So one scenario currently being contemplated by Internal Washington is that only the plaintiffs in that suit would get a refund because it would be unfeasible. The government would argue, we can't give back all of these hundreds of millions of dollars. By the way, this happened to me recently. I order something from Japan and I had to pay tariffs. So, like, how would they even facilitate that? Would they give me a refund on my credit card? Like, how? You know, it's just. I mean, imagine multiplying that by billions for every customer transaction in the country. It seems insane. At the same time, if the court orders them to do so, it could happen. So that is theoretically something that would be. I mean, also it would be. It would be, you know, caught up in litigation, all of that in hell for years. But, yeah, this is kind of one way, I think, to front run the eventual scenario of ordering refunds where I think what they'll probably end up doing maybe is saying only the specific plaintiffs to the case are gonna be paid back. Not everybody, because the government will argue it's just not possible. Which is crazy, because if we all had to pay, you know, certain goods or something, tariffs on goods, and they're ruled unconstitutional, they're like, no, we're just gonna keep your money. But that's the United States government for you. So anyway, yes, the tariff part was that. And actually to the tariff part, I was thinking about, why can't Trump blame the economy on Biden? Because you potentially could, and maybe people would buy it more on Liberation Day. You took official control of the U.S. economy.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Exactly.

[Krystal Ball]

You said, this is my economy. These tariffs are mine, and I own it going forward.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Now, there hasn't been a complete collapse. Like, let's be real. Part of the reason why is AI Juggernaut spending on data centers. But if you look at consumer sentiment, if you look at the way unemployment rate, a lot of other stuff is trending, not so happy in terms of the general US Consumer. That's what this speech was about. It was trying to say, forget about Liberation Day. It was actually a good idea. And to the extent that there's anything bad in your life, it's all Joe Biden's fault. It's just not gonna work. I mean, we see that over and over again. They're trying to do this one big, beautiful bill. They're like, you're gonna save thousands of dollars on your taxes. I'm like, it's just not true. It's just actually not True. And to the extent that it is true, how much of that got eaten up by inflation? You don't have to believe me. Just ask people themselves. Even with the tax revenue or refund or any of that that you're likely to get, is it going to make up for your overall spending? If it was, then people would be a lot more optimistic and they're not. So you don't have very much in your cap.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, and if you look at Emily Ryan and Ryan covered some of this yesterday, if you look at this jobs report that came out this week, it tells a pretty about where the economy is vis a vis what the Trump administration had promised. Their thing was, number one, we're gonna use these tariffs and some policy that's in the big beautiful bill to have a manufacturing renaissance. Now I guess you could say, well, maybe that's just gonna take some time. I don't really see the trajectory or the policy in place to create that manufacturing renaissance. But you could say that. But you've had manufacturing job loss for like nine months straight. So it's not that we're just treading water while we await this golden era. In fact, we are going dramatically backwards in terms of manufacturing jobs. And that was one of the things that they focused on in terms of who is benefiting in this economy. I mean, it's the very rich are basically the only ones that are really benefiting. But if you look at this last jobs report, effectively the only sector that was growing was healthcare, which is overwhelmingly dominated by women. And so it's actually men who have been doing even worse in this economy than they were doing before. Trump said a lot in this speech about like, oh, native born workers and the job gains are going to native born workers, et cetera, et cetera. But that promise has not paid off either. The idea was, okay, if we do this mass deportation, we get people to self deport and all of this and close down the border, then all of the jobs will go to native born workers and their unemployment rate will go down. That hasn't worked out either. You have the native born unemployment, unemployment rate also going up. So across the board, in terms of what they wanted to do with the economy, or at least their stated goals with the economy and where we actually are, there's massive, massive distance between those two things. So I think the vibe of this whole speech was frustration and sort of lecturing us about how we just don't get, we just don't get it. We just don't understand how great things are. And you can gaslight people on any number of things and they'll buy it. But on their own economic condition, that is one thing that is gonna be very hard. And many presidents before have crashed into the rocks trying to gaslight Americans about how things are going for them personally in their own lives.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, this is just by like, I mean, I hate to be redundant, but because it's just the most recent scenario, like, in a lot of ways, we do feel like we're living through a lot of Biden's second term. And especially every time we get one of those headlines that's like, White House furious with Netanyahu over something. Right. And on the economy, I distinctly remember so many of those efforts in 2021, right around now and early 2022 of it's all Trump's fault, actually. We've done everything that we could. The American rescue plan, put all this money in your pocket. People were just not buying it. Bidenomics was a dead ender. And frankly, he, I mean, can you imagine what the midterms of that year would have looked like without the Roe versus Wade? I mean, it would have been completely different. And so that's basically what they're rolling into right now. So we have some of the polling on this. Let's go to a 4B, please, and put it up here on the screen. So this new NPR poll really just puts it all together. They say Trump's overall job approval is about 38%. On the economy, it's 36. Only 24% of independents approving of his economic performance. Dems have now edged ahead of the gop, who is more trusted on the economy. Now, keep in mind, you know, they still have like an overwhelming majority, but when you're the party in power, you tend to get a lot of the blame. And just generally this is what they say. Why keep making the Biden comparison? The only time that Americans had a similarly negative view of a president's handling of the economy was in February 2022, when Joe Biden was president. Now Democrats are slightly more trusted, 37 to 33%. That's not a wide enough margin, but it is a sharp turnaround from the 16 point advantage that Republicans had on that question in 2022. So the reason why the Biden comparison is apartment is just that's basically where he is. And I think to your point about promises, narratives are easy in the campaign. They're easy, they're solid. Right. Like Biden's narrative was so simple in 2020, I'm in the basement and I'm gonna make things go back to normal. And obviously that was a presumption that Trump himself was the only one of our problems and not all of these other issues that are in. And so it turns out like, you can remove Donald Trump, but you can't just wave a magic wand and fix all of our macro problems. The Republicans came in with a story about immigration and also about manufacturing and tariffs. And a core part of it was that that would be paired with some immediate economic benefit in your life. It just hasn't materialized. I mean, their native born, like you said, their native born point is not 100% incorrect in terms of who is going to get some of the newer jobs. But what that has to be done is to see a tick down in the unemployment rate and an increase in overall real wages, which has not happened. And especially if in inflation is going to eat into those chunks and housing and healthcare, which we're gonna do an entire block on, People are like, I don't wanna hear it from you right now. Right. And so that's why the campaign, that's why watching this, it was just a campaign speech. And I mean, look, you know, there's always the whole, like, you campaign in poetry and you govern in prose, but like, you know, it's one of those ridiculous Washington phrases. But I think, you know, at the end of the day people can see the difference, you know, between the promise and then what's actually happening in their own life and in everybody that, you know, because that's the thing is people don't just experience it individually, they experience society and everything that collectively. So they talk to all of their friends. And the overall consumer sentiment is not something that just shows your own individual experience. It's about your children or your friends. You know, I don't just think about myself. I look at my people around me. I'm like, how is everybody else doing? And so even if I'm doing okay, I'll look at them, I'll be like, oh my God, this is a disaster. Cause I don't just care about myself. It's ridiculous. That's how most people do. So I think that that's something the Trump administration is discounting as well.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I think so too. And I'm wondering, there'd been some reporting about how his advisors, Trump's advisors, were making this sort of like whole of administration effort to convince Trump this was something that he should have to care about. And you've heard him say that they have affordability as a Democrat con job. What he had to be dragged to this kicking and screaming. And it shows. This was his advisors, like, you need to do that, you need to go out and make this case, right? You have a case, here's the case you're gonna make and you're gonna go out and people will, people need to hear from you that things are good and they're getting better, et cetera. And it definitely felt like he didn't wanna be there. He rushed through the whole thing as fast as. He's the fastest I've ever heard him speak. There were no digression, there was no asides, there was no ad limbing. It was just like, let me rip through this speech that my frickin advis me give as quickly as possible and get to the other side of it. So in any case, at least we're not at war with Venezuela.

[Krystal Ball]

We are not at war with Venezuela. I am more underslept than normal. So thank you, President Trump, for making me stay up late to watch his stupid speech. And to everybody else in the White House, fuck you. Look, I mean, if you gotta stay up late, it's gotta be State of the Union or something.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Give us a good song, it's gotta be something. You have to watch this angry.

[Krystal Ball]

I looked at my watch, I said, I was like, can you believe I stayed up for this shit? She's like, you're gonna be so mad. She was right. All right. Love you, babe.

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[Krystal Ball]

So let's turn to Venezuela. Obviously we're gonna talk about that a little bit with Congressman Ro Khanna but and Brian and Emily touched on this a little bit as well as the speculation online was building the case for taking back our oil from Venezuela was being made there from Donald Trump. Here's what he had to say on the tarmac while receiving the troops of dead American soldiers from Syria. Here's what he said on Venezuela.

[Donald Trump]

Not gonna let anybody going through that shouldn't be going through. You remember they took all of our energy, they took all of our oil from not that long ago and we want it back but they took it. They illegally took it.

[Krystal Ball]

They illegally took the oil. I mean Ryan did a good job yesterday of just discussing and breaking down this whole thing. So I won't go into the general history and all of that of chavez and of 1976 and all of that of oil. I will just simply point out the inconsistencies. Let's say that you wanted all the oil from Venezuela. Then that leader said you can have all the oil from Venezuela. And you said I'm going to launch a war because he refuses to give me back the oil. Would that make any damn sense to any of you? Because again, like, everyone's trying to even retconning 1976 nationalization from Venezuela or Chavez, or the fact that Chevron today, today is exporting oil from Venezuela under a special license granted to them by the Biden administration. Again, let me reiterate that, that at this entire time, an American oil company continues to export oil from Venezuela under Maduro. Even if you accepted all of those ridiculous premises, if the core goal was to get the oil and the leader said, you can have the oil, then what the hell are we all doing here? That's a great question. It's like the press is derelict in their explanations of all of this. Maduro has said, I will give you the oil. I will give you the minerals. All I wanna do is kinda stay in power and go out on my own terms and hand power off to my guy. And at every turn we're like, no. So even people who are saying it's about the oil, I wish it were about the oil. That would make more sense. Because if it were about the oil, then we could make a deal. This is about Marco Rubio, whose family is Cuban and has a lifelong dream, who believes in the 1960s domino theory that if we knock off Venezuela, then Cuba will be next. That's the level of stupid that we're all dealing with. Like Florida, Miami, occupied government. I saw a tweet from a congressman yesterday from Florida, and he was like, the Nicaraguan Venezuelan exiles that I represent are deeply supportive of President Trump. I was like, imagine if you said that about any other community. You know, my family's Indian. Can you imagine if my whole personality was about fucking Kashmir or something? Like, it would be insane. That would be the definition of dual loyalty and of importing your old world grievances to our country. If you wanna talk about integration, lack of assimilation, I'm looking at people who are still grudged over some revolution during the 1950s. I don't give a shit, okay? Whether your family got to keep a plantation in Cuba. And as Tucker famously said, you know, they talk about expropriation. They seem to be doing okay down in South Florida. Last time I checked, they all live in pretty nice houses. Just saying. All right, that's fine. Seems to you're doing well. I'm happy for you. That doesn't mean I need to send my tax dollars and use our military to go in to restore the glory of down in Venice. Like, it's ridiculous.

[Saagar Enjeti]

There is a piece of this that just still As I go over, it just still doesn't add up for me with Trump. And maybe the answer is that he doesn't really intend to do like direct strikes or certainly an invasion, that they just wanna saber rattle as much as possible to get as good a deal as possible. I mean, maybe that is actually what's going on here. And I think that's certainly possible. But I know ideologically where Marco Rubio is coming from, where some of the other Floridians in government coming from. I understand Stephen Miller's interest in this because of his whole, let's just murder the drug dealers and that consolidates more power for him and gives him more power domestically as well. I get all of that. I don't quite get the full last piece of why this was persuasive to Trump when, like you said, it seems like what he would love to do is, yes, save a rattle and then be able to come out and say, oh, we made this deal and look at what it's doing for us, et cetera, et cetera. So. So maybe that is the end point where we end up. But I think we also have to give some credence to Ryan's theory that he floated of like, hey, he thinks he actively wants another migrant crisis in caravans coming to the border because he thinks that benefits Republicans politically and it also benefits them in terms of getting their like right wing allies in government in South America. As we saw, we covered the election in Chile. I actually think with one.

[Krystal Ball]

I think the, that here's the core argument. This is what I've been told directly from arguments in the Oval, the way that it's being presented, Mr. President, you have to finish. It's just like with George W. Bush and Iraq. You have to finish the job. You looked weak because of course that's all it is. It's all just that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That does make some sense.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And they're like, if you make a deal, you're gonna look weak because we've gone all out and you recognize this former government, that's it is that he has been easily manipulated. This is the Rubio strategy. Is, is. For a while they were like, but he stole the election. Trump's like, I don't give a shit about. He stole the election. You know what I'm saying? My son in law's out here making cash money with the Gulf monarchy. You think I care about democracy for a while? They're like, he's really bad on human rights. Trump again is like, I literally don't care. Right. I'm gonna sit next to mbs. Then they finally landed on He's a drug trafficker, which is very good for a lot of people around him. And then finally everyone just keeps telling him, you're gonna look weak if you don't back down. That's why he refuses to make a deal, even though he's a so called dealmaker. I do want to give some props to Maduro, which I never thought I would say in my life. They keep saying, bro, you got to leave. And he's like, no, I'm not leaving. You're either going to kill me or you're going to make a deal. And right now we're brushing up against even what the Trump administration wants to do from a legal perspective. There's a reason that if everybody goes and reads the truth social it was being presented as a full blockade. It's not. So read what it actually says. He says, ever assembled it will get bigger and bigger until such time as they return to the United States the illegitimate Maduro, blah, blah, blah. I am today ordering a total and complete blockade of all sanctioned oil tankers. Now, people read that as a total blockade. Here's the thing, though. Only about 30 something percent of the tankers that come in and out of Venezuela are actually sanctioned. The one that was taken down by the Trump administration was previously sanctioned under Iranian Hezbollah. The Iranian Hezbollah sanctions, that's what the legal authority was. Two tankers left Venezuela yesterday. Now, I'm not saying this isn't gonna be massively disruptive to the Maduro regime, but it just shows you they're in a bind. They have the law where they are right now, where they can try to finagle these drug boats and all of that. And Trump keeps saying land strikes are coming, hasn't done it. The legal pretext for that, very different, difficult to justify. And Congress, if he actually did do that, may step, I'm saying may step in. They haven't stepped in yet. They're giving him a short leash. But let's put a six up here on the screen. I'm excited to talk about this with Congressman Ro Khanna is just yesterday, the House of Representatives only very narrowly failed in a vote on a Venezuela War Powers Resolution which would have stopped all of the stuff that we see right now. It failed at 211 to 213. If they actually start striking land or striking boats, for example, like real, like Venezuelan oil tankers and blowing them up or get into an armed conflict, I think that would flip very quickly. You know, the Venezuelan Navy again Why I have to respect Maduro is he keeps calling Trump's bluff. He's like, I'll take all your migrants. Keep sending them, send them. I'll take them. Right. I'm gonna give you what you really, really want. And at the same time, you're making these threats about my oil tanker.

[Sophie Cunningham]

Okay?

[Krystal Ball]

I'm gonna denounce that as an act of piracy. Yesterday, he sent the Venezuelan Navy to escort those two tankers that I just talked about. So now we have a decision to make. What's happening here? Are we getting into a gunfight?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Then you've got a direct confrontation.

[Krystal Ball]

Now you've got a real thing that's happening, which again, nobody has authorized. Nobody's voted on this. And of course this is not an excuse. All of this could spiral out of control incredibly quickly and we can end up in some USS Maine situation. So please do not, not like, take this as me saying that they're being cautious. I'm saying that they're in a legal and a difficult political bind. They do not want American troops to die. They do not want any American troops ever to set foot on Venezuelan soil. Their best case scenario is a Libya NATO style intervention, which. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. It goes without saying, all of that said, they are still in a very tough place where they can't go to Congress because Congress would vote it down if they really wanted to. What they wanted to do, like full blown regime change. So everything is like CIA pressure machinations, and Maduro has called their bluff every step of the way. They're like, give us all your oil. He's like, okay. He's like, take all of our migrants. Okay. Except the one thing he won't give on is I'm not just gonna step down from power. So he's basically saying, kill me or make a deal with me.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And so, I don't know. I mean, look, we might kill him. I really hope that we don't, but we might.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, let's go ahead and bring in Congressman Ro Khanna to talk about all of this. And you know, he's been really leading the char charged with these war powers resolutions, working in a bipartisan manner with Congressman Thomas Massie. So let's go ahead and get to Congressman Khanna.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Joining us now, Congressman Ro Khanna. Great to see you sir.

[Krystal Ball]

Good to see you.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Always good to be on.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, of course. Let me put back up on the screen guys, a six so we can get the war powers resolution vote from yesterday which narrowly failed 2:11 to 2:13. And you've been deeply involved in trying to Push back against this administration's rogue actions with regard to these drug boats and potential strikes in Venezuela. You had only three Republicans join with all of the Democrats, save for one, who I believe was Henry Cuellar. And then you also had nine people who inexplicably missed the vote, including four Democrats. You know, what did you make of this, of this narrow failure?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

It was a failure of Congress again. I mean, look, the American people don't want regime change wars. And there were two war powers resolutions actually that failed. One said stop just bombing boats in the Caribbean without clear standards. But the other one that should have easily passed said we don't want to go into Venezuela to have a land invasion and topple Madero. And even that that did not pass. And so Congress is really to blame for these endless wars. We are not willing to assert our constitutional authority, sir.

[Krystal Ball]

One of the things that we're really puzzled about here is the presentation from the Trump administration where they're trying to force Maduro out, but they have not yet moved to any full blown kinetic action. Just curious, from your perspective, at least on land is really what I'm talking about against the Maduro regime. There were some speculation about congressional briefings and others being given yesterday. I'm just wondering if you've heard anything about that from you and your colleagues. I know you yourself serve on some of the relevant committees. Have you heard anything recently?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

I was in a classified briefing yesterday about the second strike on the boat. And all I'll say about that is that it should be released to the American public. I've made that clear. And that I have concerns about these strikes in the Caribbean. And by the way, we've interdicted or stopped about 10 tons of cocaine coming in, while Donald Trump has pardoned the former president of Honduras, Hernandez, who brought in 400 tons of cocaine. So it's total hypocrisy. The other concern I have is that they basically increasing our troop presence in Puerto Rico, increasing the troop presence in Florida, increasing our naval presence in the Caribbean, increasing our aircraft carriers, our General Ford carriers there, they're provoking a war. And if there's one incident that takes place, they can blame Madero and use that as justification to have a regime change war. The American people have rejected this and yet this administration is doing exactly what the American people don't want.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I wanted to play a little bit of Congressman Thomas Massie, who you've worked really effectively in collaboration with across the aisle on some of these foreign policy matters. In particular, go ahead and take a Listen to the case he made against this regime change war.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

The framers understood a simple truth. To the extent that war making power devolves to one person, liberty dissolves. If the President believes military action against Venezuela is justified and needed, he should make the case and Congress should vote. Before American lives and treasure are spent on regime change in South America, let's be honest about likely outcomes. Do we truly believe that Nicolas Maduro will be replaced by a modern day George Washington? How did that work out in Cuba, Libya, Iraq or Syria? Previous presidents told us to go to war over WMDs, weapons of mass destruction that did not exist. Now it's the same playbook, except we're told that Drugs are the WMDs. If it were about drugs, we'd bomb Mexico or China or Colombia and the President would not have pardoned Juan Orlando Hernandez. This is about oil and regime change.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And unfortunately, Thomas Massie there one of only three who voted for this War Powers Resolution. Help us understand why is there so much more support for these regime change wars in Congress than there is among the American people?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Well, I could have given the same exact speech, literally word to word that Thomas Massie did. I mean, he absolutely nailed it. The problem is several things. One, as he pointed out, their oil interests. I mean, the Koch brothers have refineries in the Gulf of Mexico that require and need Venezuelan oil. That oil has been restricted. Their profits are being hurt. Second, you look weak. I mean, if you make this argument that we don't want to be for regime change, war in the Beltway, foreign policy blob, they paint you as unserious about national security. Third, they paint you as well, you may be sympathetic to Maduro and he's a terrible leader. Well, yeah, he is a terrible leader, but the point isn't whether he's a terrible leader. The point is whether you want to commit American money and American troops to a war that's not going to have a better outcome. But it's the same game that what's frustrating is the American public now has seen through it. They keep voting for the President who promises them no endless wars. And yet the Congress seems to be asleep.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, it's very frustrating for many of us watching, sir. We do. While we have. You want to talk a little bit about the Epstein files? Tomorrow is supposed to be the day that the Trump administration does comply with the legislation that you spearheaded with Congressman Thomas Massie. Just curious, first of all, if you can preview anything that you may have heard about what might be coming. And second, some consequences for the administration, if they don't live up to the that.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Well, the early tell will be whether they comply with three federal judges. The federal judges have ordered that the grand jury testimony and all of the discovery of the Maxwell trials and the Epstein trials be released. And there's a lot of information in there that will implicate other rich and powerful men who were either at the island, who covered up for Epstein knowing what was taking place, or who either abused underage girls or trafficked in young women illegally. And so if they don't release that, that would be a total slap on the face, especially because the DOJ cited Massey and my law saying that judges should require the release of this information. More broadly, what we want to see is the draft indictments which have other individuals named other than just Epstein and Maxwell. We want to see the witness interviews that the FBI conducted so we actually know who is part of this Epstein class that covered this up or abused or raped young girls. I believe if they do not comply, there's going to be outrage in this country. But people also could be subject to prosecution for obstruction of justice. And I believe we need to hold people in the Trump administration accountable for crimes they have committed. And the next Democratic president should do that. So people should be very careful about violating laws and obstruction of justice. We can hold Pam Bondi an inherent contempt of Congress where the, the sergeant of arms could actually arrest her. We could impeach Bondi. There are a lot of options on the table that Republicans and Democrats are talking about. I hope it doesn't come to that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And are you working with the Epstein survivors and with their lawyers to help you determine, you know, whether the files are being released in a fulsome nature, since they would have some knowledge of what should be contained in them.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Crystal, you're absolutely right. I'm working very closely with Bradley Edwards, who is the most prominent lawyer for the survivors. And he's seen a lot of these files. Some of those files he actually has through discovery. So we know if there are games that are going to be played, we know if the names that these survivors want to come out are coming out. And Massey and I have spent too much time with these survivors to just let this slide. We are emotionally invested in this, this. We know what this means to the survivors. And we are going to continue to raise our voices and fight until we have full transparency. If we need to, we'll bring the survivors to the front of the Capitol. Again, I hope that's not going to be necessary.

[Krystal Ball]

One of the things that we've been consistently looking at here with the Epstein files, you've called it the Epstein class as well, is a general lack of accountability for the people surrounding who enabled him. And I'm just curious from your perspective, as you're looking at the broader kind of Democratic elite and others, how you go about as a prospective leader in that party, exiling the Larry Summers and all of those of the world, but many of the other financiers, the Bill Clintons and others who associated themselves over the years with Epstein and kind of what this legislation combined with that public reckoning means for you.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Well, let me just paint a vivid picture. You have Epstein's rape violence. You have these sex parties going on. Suddenly you have one or two young girls who are 16, 17, and they're powerful men at these parties, knowing what's going on, not saying anything, regardless of whether they themselves raped these underage girls. What signal does it send to a 16 or 17 year old at one of these parties if they have powerful politicians, powerful rich people there watching what's going on, not saying a word word. It sends a message that this is normal behavior and those people need to be held accountable just like the people who actually raped these girls. My view is let the chips fall where they may. I was totally shocked and disgusted by how Harvard's actions that there are apparently two young feminists who recorded some part of Larry Summers who's a public figure and they're actually facing disciplinary hearings at Harvard University for doing something that in my view is just basically free speech. It's not like they were recording kids or the classroom discussion. They were exercising speech with a public figure. But I believe that we need to get rid of this Epstein class. We need to get rid of the old guard, these people who thought the rules didn't apply to them. Elite impunity. They have governed the country in a way that has led to massive income inequality. They watched wealth pile up, they watched jobs be offshore. They've destroyed the working and middle class. And the first thing the Democratic Party needs to say is out with the old. We're going to have a new generation of leadership.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Could not agree more. I wanted to get you to weigh in because I think this is related. You can tell me if you think this is related. Dan Bongino now has made it official. He is deputy FBI director. He's gonna be stepping down at the end of this month. Let's go ahead and play before guys, this is Donald Trump making an official and talking about why Bongino was leaving.

[Donald Trump]

Dan, did A great job.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

I think he wants to go back.

[Saagar Enjeti]

To his show and wants to go back to his show. I think he's probably right about that. Although I'm not sure how much of an audience he has left. I mean, he, he, I'm sure you recall after the initial Epstein file release fail memo situation, he had this whole angsty weekend away and there were rumors he was gonna leave at that point. He's been kind of sidelined in the FBI now making it official that he is going to step down. Speak to how much the Epstein files are involved in his fall from grace with the MAGA movement. And also you can zoom out from there. How significant has this been a fracture point point within MAGA between leaders and the base?

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

It's been the biggest fracture point in the MAGA coalition since Donald Trump walked down the escalator. Let me explain why you had Dan Bongino, Cash Patel, Pam Bondi, JD Vance on podcast after podcast saying we want the Epstein files released. They thought it was going to be largely Democrats implicated. But what they were telling the country is that these are, there are corrupt and rich powerful men, men who rape our girls and who pay no consequences. They have corrupted the system. And Donald Trump may not be a saint, but he's going to expose them. He's going to tear these institutions down and they put their entire credibility on this. In fact, one of the reasons that Dan Bongino, who doesn't have any traditional qualification of being at the FBI was picked for the role is to have this kind of transparency. And Pam Bondi cut his legs out from underhand him. Susan Wallace basically admitted it that Pam Bondi whiffed. And so Bungino probably feels like he has so little credibility left. His whole purpose was to expose these kind of files. And the fact that he's leaving now, it makes gives me pause about whether we're actually going to get the full release. And one of the people who will behold in front of Congress when we win back Congress is Dan Bongino. And before that, to get the truth of what, what's in these files.

[Krystal Ball]

Wow. Well, I'm personally looking forward to that and some more. All right, thank you very much for joining us, sir. We appreciate your time.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Thank you. Thank you, Congressman.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Thanks. Happy holidays.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You too.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Pets age 0 to 10 so as part of that angry, manic speech last night, President Trump did also talk about what he thinks should happen with health care. Let's take a listen.

[Donald Trump]

The first of these unprecedented price reductions will be available starting in January through a new website, trumprx.gov and these big price cuts will greatly reduce the cost of health care. I'm also taking on the gigantic health insurance companies that have gotten rich on billions of dollars of money that should go directly to the people. The money should go to the people that's you so they can buy their own health insurance, which will give far better benefits at much lower costs. It will be far better health insurance. The current Unaffordable Care act was created to make insurance companies rich. It was bad health care at much too high a cost, and you see that now in the steep increase in premiums being demanded by The Democrats and they are demanding those increases and it's their fault. It is not the Republicans fault, it's the Democrats fault.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They are demanding those increases after we had our entire government shutdown around trying to extend the ACA subsidies. And this comes as Republicans are really kind of in a mess with regard to health care. You have some moderates who realize these price hikes are going to be a major problem. They want to vote for the ACA subsidy extension. Hakeem Jeffries has been pushing a three year extension. He actually succeeded in getting the requisite number of moderate Republicans onto that district charge petition to force a vote. So that was a significant development. At the same time you have Republicans who are pushing this sort of grab bag of really small ball, like sort of consensus policies about choice plans and some moderate, not even like significant pharmacy benefit manager reform, but some moderate stuff there. Things that may around the edges make things modestly better. But it's not going to be like a significant reduction in your premiums or significant game changer anytime soon. Speaker Johnson was asked after these moderate Republicans defected whether he had lost control of the House. Let's take a listen to that. Have you lost control of the House?

[Krystal Ball]

I have not lost control because this is the third time there are. Look, we have the smallest majority in U.S. history. These are not normal times. There are proceeds and procedures in the House House that are less frequently used when there are larger majorities and when you have the luxury of having 10 or 15 people who disagree on something, you know, you don't have to deal with it. But when you have a razor thin margin as we do.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So he, he claims he has not in fact lost control of the House. Let's go ahead and take a listen to some of these moderate Republican legislators and how pissed they are at his handling of health care. This is C4. Let's take a listen.

[Krystal Ball]

I am pissed. For the American people. This is absolute bullshit.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

And it's absurd that we are in a body with 435 members.

[Congressman Thomas Massie]

Everybody has a responsibility to serve their.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

District, to serve their constituents.

[Donald Trump]

What do you say though to the.

[Krystal Ball]

Speaker who's not going to give you a vote on this ACA extension? That's a failure of leadership. I mean we have, you know, members on both sides who, who believe this is an urgent issue and it is for all of our members in terms of what their constituents are going to.

[Congressman Ro Khanna]

Have to deal with in the start.

[Krystal Ball]

Of the new year. So what's wrong with having a vote?

[Saagar Enjeti]

So there you go. They are pissed because Johnson didn't even give them the ability to vote on an ACA subsidy extension. Which is why ultimately they came to Hakeem Jeffries position and signed onto this discharge petition, getting it to 218 signatures. And listen, not a Hakeem Jeffries fan. And I think he's played his cards very poorly in the past in terms of like being a communicator, an orator, terrible. Tactically, he played this very intelligently. He put this petition forward. There were some other rival Democratic positions. Josh gottheimer had one that sucked and some other ones, et cetera. And he stayed strong on this particular position, betting that other harder line Republicans in the House would make it impossible for them to even offer them a show vote on these ACA subsidy extension. And that those Republicans would ultimately come to his position. That is exactly what happened.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And unfortunately, Speaker Johnson, just some inside baseball here. He canceled votes on Friday and sent everybody home early to kick this health care vote to the new year.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's also interesting times the Epstein files released that day. All times. Everybody needs to get out of town.

[Krystal Ball]

He's like, get everybody the hell out of Washington because they don't want them all on Capitol Hill with cameras in their face where they have to react. So a little bit of inside baseball there for everybody. But no, it's a disaster. And I think that's one of the things why Trump announced it in his speech is because it felt very poltest to me. He's like, we have to hit inflation, we have to hit healthcare, we have to hit housing. And on health care, you know, this plan about we're gonna give everybody money. It's like, like, again, I mean, between the subsidies or the money, the problem is the cost. Like, if they give you.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Exactly right.

[Krystal Ball]

Like I've said here, My deductible is $14,500. The increase in my premium and I have Obamacare is. The increase in my premiums is 17%. So if they were to grant this, like HSA or whatever grant to a family, it would cover the increase in healthcare. Like, I'm sorry, that is just. Yes, okay, I'll take it. I'm sure everybody else will take it too. That doesn't mean that you've revolutionarily, like, changed my life. All right? Like, I'm not gonna be like, wow, thank you for covering the increase in my healthcare premium over a year. That's just me. There's a lot of other people out there too, who I think will probably feel the same way. They're like the government's gonna cover one fifth of your deductible. You're like, yippee, right? That's just not like. And then I was talking to Steve, our audience engineer today, and he was talking about how even when you do pay a thousand bucks a month for health care, if you have a higher deductible plan, like the amount you avoid going to the doctor just because you're like, who's gonna do co pays? And all of it. That is the fundamental issue. This is all tinkering around the edges. So, yes, even with ACA subsidies, like, sorry, it's just not, you know, the subsidies themselves were a band aid to a broken and a shit system. And until we get very real about cost, nothing's really gonna be. Nothing's gonna change. And what the subsidy conversation I think ignited is because that's the thing is like, no one wants to defend the subsidies, let's say, on paper, because everybody agrees it's still an insane system. It's horrible. But what the subsidy conversation ignited for everybody is just to think about the government and healthcare and about the fact that they can do something. And, you know, this was a rare case where just doing the status quo was better than letting them expire. Cause now everybody is thinking about healthcare in a different way, I think, than previously, or it's more top of mind. And right now, the subsidies have officially, I think today expired. So it's over. You know, we're cooked, those of us who are Obamacare subscribers, but it's not. I mean, look, we're only 7 million. There's tens, hundreds of millions of people who have healthcare. Their premiums went up no matter what happened here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's right.

[Krystal Ball]

Period. So. And again, for most people, because healthcare is so complicated, they don't know whether they're getting a subsidy or not. They're like, my bill went up. Screw trip. That's how they're gonna think.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Completely.

[Krystal Ball]

They have no idea whether they get a subsidy or not. Because health care is complicated as shit.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's absolutely right. I've seen all these polls about, like, in Kentucky, the Obamacare exchange. I can't remember what it's called. It's like Kentucky Care or something like that. And people are, oh, I love that. And then you ask them, like, oh, do you like Obamacare? And they're like, no, I hate that. And it's like, it's literally the same thing. And I don't blame people because it is complex. I don't understand all of the ins and outs. And, you know, I study this for a living. People come from other countries where they have universal healthcare. They're like, what? What is this?

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

What is happening here?

[Krystal Ball]

It's deductible.

[Saagar Enjeti]

What is going on with this? Yeah. So, yes, you see your bill go up, you hear a national conversation about how Republicans are blocking these subsidies, and you think, oh, my bill is going up because these assholes aren't, like, helping to fund the healthcare that they were doing previously. And yes, Republicans really are in trouble on this issue. Anytime healthcare is at the forefront of the political discussion, yeah, they're screwed. Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Except 2000, when people were mad because their health care got mad.

[Pets Best Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And when they could live in the abstract of, like, this is bad, we'll do something better. But now, after years and years and years of, number one, people experiencing some benefits from Obamacare, and number two, Republicans demonstrating time and time again they have zero answer or alternative that would be in any way superior, health care is probably their worst, single worst issue. And so while I thought it was terrible that Democrats ultimately caved on their shutdown fight, they did succeed in really focusing attention on this issue, which had been on the back burner for a couple of years. Basically, since the 2020 Democratic primary, health care has been on the back burner as an issue and not at the center of public conversation, even as the pain continued to ratchet up and increase year after year after year. We can put this Politico tear sheet up on the screens, the C5, just to give a sense of, you know, they've got some reporting about how the White House is thinking about all of this. They say the White House weighs risks of a health care fight as ACA subsidies set to expire. The White House is wary that the current debate around health care subsidies could go the way of Republicans failure to repeal Obamacare that fueled Democrats return to power in 2018. If only it were that simple. The administration is also contending with differing opinions over the political ramifications of the subsidies, expiring the question of whether Trump's engagement might be unproductive on the Hill and the reality that Trump behind the scenes likely knows something must be done to prevent the premium spread spike some Americans would see as congressional Republicans duke out their intraparty divisions on how to address the expiration of some Affordable Care act subsidies. Administration officials do not believe Trump should engage more than he already has. That's because they're fearful of the president getting yoked into a messy healthcare fight. According to two people close to the White House and who were familiar with Healthcare conversations between the White House and the Hill. So, you know, I mean that Trump being such a, you know, the leader of this party and a very strong leader of this party, even though he has been hobbled in recent months, the fact that they kind of wanna keep him hands off and for him not to just assert this is what we're doing and if you don't go along with it, I'm going to make you pay for not going along with my plan. Also leaves them sort of adrift because Mike Johnson is nothing other than effectively a puppet, like doing whatever he thinks it is that Trump wants him to do. So if he's left to his own devices, that's part of why you're seeing such an absolute mess in a chaotic disaster.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Remember the Senate too, Even if it doesn't get through the House, like what's gonna happen with the Senate? Is Trump gonna sign it? Right. Especially after talking such a big game. How's that gonna work?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

So I would not. If I'm a betting person. Yeah. I'm sure there's some couchy poly market market on there. I would never bet on making sure that the premiums are in any way going to come. The most likely, if at all possible scenario will be what I said, some weird $1,000 means tested check to Obamacare alone, which you know, does not to the point of hundreds of millions of people out there have insurance. Their insurance statistically almost certainly went up in the last year. They have no idea whether it's quote, subsidized or not or whatever connected to aca. They're gonna see that cost and they're gonna get mad. So that fundamentally is why they don't understand what's actually happening here. And yeah, I mean they should pay for it. Honestly, the way that they've handled it's just been a total disaster. Disaster because they refused to like they talk. What did he say? Concepts of a plan beforehand. The bet was is that we're just never gonna have to deal with this. That's what every politician does. But then for some reason they said let's let the subsidies expire. So they finally put it back into America's mind. All you had to do was nothing, just let the ACA things go on. But for some what ridiculous like deficit it hawkery type reasons, they decided. And now just like Obama, anybody who messes with the healthcare system, if you do it in the worst way, you're screwed. Like that's the one thing people just don't want. They do not want their Healthcare messed with, period. Unless it's gonna get better. And then even then you better prove it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And they have no idea because it's hard to do it where it gets better for everyone. And the people who have had it had something where they feel like it was taken away from them. They're going to be very exercised about it. I mean, with Obama at least there were people who were immediate immediately benefiting from Obamacare. With this, it's like nothing but.

[Krystal Ball]

But even so, to the Obama, this is what I want to expound on. And yeah, we have a little bit of time. So what, what the Obamacare was fundamentally kind of a socialist argument where it's like it's going to cover more people, but it's actually not that much better for everyone. It's like a socialist policy in practice, as in, yeah, more people are covered. Is that good? It's like, well, it's like healthcare kind of got shittier for everybody. It's very difficult to preserve a system of coverage and of high quality. That's the fundamental problem between like market based healthcare, privatized healthcare, even in Europe and in others, you know, they have triage care. Let's. Now listen, I'm not gonna say that that's better or worse. It's a trade off. A lot of people over there have accepted us. America's a very individualist nation. Even when you do look at polls, people are very dissatisfied with the healthcare system, but they personally like their own healthcare coverage. This was the problem with Obamacare. That's part of the reason why public option or something like that. Or you've got to find a place where people can preserve their individuality, their ability to choose, et cetera, while also trying to make sure that people are not dying from medical debt. This is the, you know, the Gordian knot, which is almost like, you know, for some reason just nobody can really figure it out. And I do think it's gonna be really difficult for the Republicans in the future because they're gonna grasp at straws and they're gonna just throw more money into this corrupt system. Like fundamentally, that's where I think we're gonna end up. Some weird check or something that gets deposited into some account where you don't know the login and you're gonna have to coordinate with your insurance company. I mean, that's how it always works, right? Even with Obamacare, signing up for it is a nightmare. You have to go on there and pick coverage or whatever. Oh, and now you have to deal with the insurance company. Unfortunately, that's just the way it works.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Notices about like open enrollment.

[Krystal Ball]

What is going on? On.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm like, do I still have coverage or not? Like, what's going on here?

[Krystal Ball]

I've got like three different cards in the mail. It's just too much. And yeah, I mean, I think that's just the fundamental political problem with healthcare and nobody seems to to square it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I don't.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't.

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[Krystal Ball]

O Only one movie answers the call.

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[Krystal Ball]

For the biggest comedy event of the holiday season, do you know what the the best part is? What is it, Patrick?

[Donald Trump]

No, I'm asking.

[Krystal Ball]

The SpongeBob Movie rated DT Friday.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.