12/3/24: Krystal Vs Cenk Uygur On Trump Populism

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar: Episode Summary

Title: Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Episode: December 3, 2024
Guest: Cenk Uygur
Release Date: December 3, 2024

In this compelling episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar, hosts Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti engage in a dynamic and in-depth conversation with Cenk Uygur, the founder of The Young Turks (Tyt). The discussion centers on Trump Populism, the evolving landscape of the Democratic Party, the role of independent media, and the influence of billionaires in government. The episode offers a rich analysis of the current political climate, highlighting both challenges and potential avenues for progressive change.

---

1. The Role of Independent Media in Elections

[01:41] Krystal Ball:
"Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show."

Cenk Uygur emphasizes the unique position of independent media outlets like Breaking Points in providing honest perspectives from both the left and the right. He underscores the importance of independent voices in holding the powerful accountable, a mission shared by both hosts.

---

2. Litmus Tests for the Democratic Party

[02:47] Krystal Ball:
"The litmus test has to be like, fuck the billionaires. That's basically my view of the party."

Krystal Ball and Cenk Uygur discuss the current litmus tests within the Democratic Party, critiquing the focus on social issues over economic policies. Krystal advocates for shifting the party’s primary assessment to economic concerns, such as combating billionaire influence, rather than adhering strictly to social issue alignments.

---

3. Criticism of Corporate Democrats

[03:29] Krystal Ball:
"All the litmus tests are around social issues. In the Democratic Party, you can be pretty right wing on economic policy. It's not really a problem."

The conversation delves into the frustrations with corporate Democrats, who often maintain pro-corporate and right-leaning economic stances while supporting progressive social policies. Both hosts argue that this duality dilutes the party’s progressive agenda, making it essential to prioritize economic reforms.

---

4. Trump Populism: Strategies and Impact

[08:37] Cenk Uygur:
"Trump did a fake elector plot to overthrow the democratic elections in 2020."

Cenk Uygur labels Donald Trump as a fascist, citing his attempt to undermine democratic elections as a primary concern. He discusses Trump's volatile relationship with the MAGA base, noting a shift from blind adoration to a more strategic, populist approach aimed at garnering broader support through policies like paid family leave and higher wages.

[31:07] Cenk Uygur:
"Paid family leave is popular. Health care is popular. Higher wages is popular. And the right wing populists like all that."

Cenk highlights the potential for right-wing populism to align with left-wing economic policies, creating opportunities for cross-ideological progress. He expresses optimism that such alignment could counterbalance the establishment’s influence, despite ongoing concerns about Trump’s authoritarian tendencies.

---

5. The Right-Wing Populist Base: Integrity and Implications

[59:01] Krystal Ball:
"RFK Jr put in at HHS or nominated to be put in at HHS, talking a big game about getting bad stuff out of the food system. Trump just put in for the USDA and at the FDA, Brooke Rollins, who's a total corporate, Big Ag shill, she'll be Ag Secretary."

Krystal Ball expresses skepticism about the integrity of the right-wing populist base, citing instances where nominees with corporate ties undermine progressive agendas. She argues that despite some populist rhetoric, the practical outcomes often align with corporate interests, raising doubts about the sustainability of genuine populist reforms within this faction.

[55:32] Cenk Uygur:
"So right wing populists, it is now your job to prove Krystal wrong."

Cenk challenges the right-wing populists to demonstrate their commitment to foundational populist principles, urging them to hold leaders accountable rather than perpetuating unaccountable power structures.

---

6. Influence of Billionaires in Government

[46:27] Krystal Ball:
"They have all of these massive conflicts of interest. This is a project like any normal Koch Brothers type right-wing project to strip the capability of the government so that it's less able to regulate and constrain robber barons like Elon Musk or any other of the billionaire class."

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the pernicious influence of billionaires like Elon Musk in government. Both hosts critique the entrance of billionaires into key governmental roles, arguing that it compromises democratic integrity and perpetuates corporate dominance over public policy.

[52:49] Cenk Uygur:
"I hope one day right wing populist finally realize maybe billionaire donors aren't our friends, maybe that they're rigging the rules not to our benefit, but to their benefit."

Cenk urges the right-wing populist base to recognize the conflicting interests of billionaire donors, advocating for a realignment of priorities to better serve the broader populace rather than elite interests.

---

7. Future Prospects and Concluding Remarks

[61:12] Cenk Uygur:
"The only thing that could defeat right wing populism is left wing populism. ... It is imperative that we pick a populist left winger in 2028. Otherwise we have no chance of retaking the White House."

In concluding the episode, Cenk emphasizes the necessity of embracing left-wing populism as a counterforce to right-wing populism. He warns against continuing with establishment politics, which he views as inherently corrupt and detached from the needs of the people. Krystal echoes the sentiment, advocating for united progressive action to overcome both right-wing authoritarianism and corporate manipulation within the Democratic Party.

[63:03] Krystal Ball:
"I do not think that this level of engagement gives this project of total billionaire control over the federal government a sense of bipartisan legitimacy and creates the appearance that genuinely beneficial things are going to come out of it, when I do not think that genuinely beneficial things are going to come out of it overall."

Krystal reinforces the need to oppose billionaire control unequivocally, highlighting the dangers of legitimizing such power structures through seemingly bipartisan initiatives.

---

Key Takeaways

• Independent Media's Pivotal Role: Krystal and Cenk advocate for the importance of independent media in providing truthful, unfiltered political discourse.

• Reforming Democratic Litmus Tests: There's a call to prioritize economic issues over social issues within the Democratic Party to foster genuine progressive change.

• Critique of Corporate Democrats: The hosts critique the perceived disconnect between the party's social policies and its economic stances, arguing for a more unified and economically focused agenda.

• Complexities of Trump Populism: Trump’s populism is dissected as both a threat and a potential catalyst for economic policy alignment across political spectrums.

• Challenges with Right-Wing Populism: Skepticism is expressed regarding the ability of right-wing populists to maintain genuine reformist impulses in the face of entrenched corporate interests.

• Billionaire Influence as a Threat: The discussion underscores the dangers of billionaire involvement in government, advocating for measures to prevent such undue influence.

• Urgent Call for Left-Wing Populism: The episode concludes with a powerful call to action for embracing left-wing populism to counterbalance the rise of authoritarian and corporate-controlled right-wing movements.

---

This episode of Breaking Points offers a thorough examination of the current political dynamics, urging listeners to recognize and address the intricate interplay between populism, corporate influence, and media integrity. By fostering a nuanced understanding of these elements, Krystal, Saagar, and Cenk provide valuable insights into the path forward for progressive political engagement.

Transcript

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Cenk Uygur]

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[Cenk Uygur]

Hey guys, Sager and Crystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Cenk Uygur]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we.

[Cenk Uygur]

Hope to see you@breaking points.com.

[Krystal Ball]

So cenk you and I just started sort of talking about the they them ad that Trump ran and a bunch of other stuff, and the conversation just sort of unfolded. So you're going to pick up here kind of midstream with Cenk and I already engaged in a conversation about the future of the Democratic Party. So I hope you enjoyed.

[Cenk Uygur]

I don't want progressivism to be known as Bane from Batman series where we just. We're known as the guys who let all the criminals go.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Where's the justice in that?

[Krystal Ball]

So my view, which is probably similar to yours, is like right now, all the litmus tests, and this largely comes out of like actually the Hillary Clinton and the neoliberal approach to politics. All the litmus tests are around social issues. In the Democratic Party, you can be pretty right wing on economic policy. It's not really a problem. You know, you can be very pro corporate. Yeah, I think it should be the exact reverse. I think the litmus test should be around economic issues.

[Cenk Uygur]

God damn right.

[Krystal Ball]

And then, you know, personally, I'm like pretty left on almost every issue, but I have no problem with having people in the tent who are pro life, who are pro gun, who have different views on the border crime than I do. But the litmus test has to be like, fuck the billionaires. That's basically my view of the party.

[Cenk Uygur]

Totally.

[Krystal Ball]

So where I get frustrated in the conversation is when like the South Moltens of the world are instantly like, well, it's trans people. You know, it's like, well, you know, if your only assessment from this is to like throw trans people under the bus and you don't have. That's very convenient for the donor class. That's very convenient for the powers that be in the Democratic Party. That doesn't require anything of them. So I'm not saying those issues aren't like, you know, challenging for the Democratic Party to deal with, but if your only instinct is like to blame the left yet again when the left had nothing to do with this campaign, like, I'm very suspicious of that.

[Cenk Uygur]

So I actually 100% agree with you. Thank you so much, Meg.

[Krystal Ball]

Thank you.

[Cenk Uygur]

But I don't want us to live in non reality. And non reality is saying that ad didn't hurt us when both sides said definitively according to our internal numbers, it was fucking devastating. Right. So, like, that's not the number one reason.

[Krystal Ball]

As I said, I think the thing for me is you have to ask the deeper question of like, okay, why did that ad hurt? Because. Why did that ad hurt? Because Bernie has the same position on transgender issues. But that ad would not work against Bernie. Okay. And the reason is because he actually, like, people are not gonna be confused that Bernie Sanders top priority is fighting against rich people fighting for you. They're not gonna be confused about that. So you're right. If you're running a Kamala Harris, that ad's gonna be a fucking problem for her because she doesn't really stand for anything.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, it's true.

[Krystal Ball]

And so people can be very easily convinced that she cares about a bunch of bullshit that I don't support and I don't care about. But if you have a candidate who has a story that can compete with the Trump the left populist story and narrative and credibility of actually fighting for those things, then you can carry some cultural issues that, yeah. May not be that popular.

[Cenk Uygur]

So you could do the Hasan strategy if you. And that's. And I agreed with him. And that's what I would have done. If you have actual policies like you were saying.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Because then you could say, hey, this is a distraction from $15 minimum wage and universal healthcare, et cetera. But Kamala couldn't say it's a distraction from anything because she doesn't believe in anything.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Right. So that's why I was saying the ad was a perfect combination of what was wrong with the corporate Democrats and the extreme left, because the corporate Democrats stripped her of any real substance to run on. Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So then all that was left was the extreme left positions that she took on into 2020. Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So that's my opinion.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. No, I totally agree with that. I totally agree with it. I don't think you can say, like, the ad didn't matter at all. But I think it's important to understand why she was vulnerable to that ad. And a Bernie Sanders or an Andy Beshear would be.

[Cenk Uygur]

But I'll tell you. So I agree with all that. I will say that I think Bernie 2020 was more susceptible to it.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Cenk Uygur]

Than Bernie 2016.

[Krystal Ball]

Agreed. Agreed. So we've been talking here to Cenk Uygur, obviously, of Tyt and many other wonderful distinctions as well, but lucky to have you in studio today. And we started talking and recording, so we'll just include that front part in the conversation as well. Great to have you.

[Cenk Uygur]

All right. Great to be here.

[Krystal Ball]

I'll give you the official welcome now. So you've been making a lot of waves.

[Cenk Uygur]

I love to make waves.

[Krystal Ball]

You've been stirring the pot, sir.

[Cenk Uygur]

That's what I am. I'm a pot stir.

[Krystal Ball]

So, yes. And I was telling you, Kyle and I both enjoyed Jinxgiving.

[Cenk Uygur]

Thank you.

[Krystal Ball]

Appreciate it. We were listening to it on the way back from New York. One thing I wanted to talk to you about is I want to get into the stuff with you and Elon and Bernie's chimed in there and your sort of general approach to the Trump administration, which, tell me if I'm wrong, feels different than how you approach things in 2016. We can talk a little bit more about that and kind of emblematic of that, if you guys could put Cenk's tweet up on the screen and we can use this as a jumping off point. So you said. I've been trying to figure out why I'm more optimistic now than I was before the election, even though I was so against the guy who won. I know now MAGA is not my mortal enemy. Neither is the extreme left. My mortal enemy is the establishment, and they have been defeated. So there's a few pieces of this that I have some questions about, but I guess just off the top, I think you and I both think that Trump is a fascist. In fact, I think we both argued with our co hosts about this rather memorably. What makes you optimistic now that we have the fascist headed back to the White House?

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, it's a couple of things. So, number one, he was a. Why did I call him a fascist? I'm very clear on this. Right. Because he did a fake elector plot to overthrow the democratic elections in 2020. Right. And he said to terminate the Constitution afterwards. A lot of right wingers don't know that. Like, when I read him that quote, they're like, no, really? And then they read it and they can't believe it that he gets. Because he doesn't care about democracy, doesn't care about the Constitution, etc. Right, right. So I have those same exact concerns. Those concerns have not left, but the one thing that happened in this election was that he won the popular vote. And I noticed right wingers switching from, oh, we're not a democracy, we're a republic. Right?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

To like, yeah, let's go democracy.

[Krystal Ball]

Suddenly free and fair elections exist. Right? Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

And suddenly they're in favor of democratic elections. So great. Wonderful. Because my number one concern is that he's not gonna leave office. I'm less concerned about that now. Okay. So maybe I'm wrong about that. And if I'm naive about that, then I'll own up to it, etc.

[Krystal Ball]

Let me just say, though, so for me, Personally, yes, I continue to be somewhat concerned he won't leave office. But my issue with the fake electors plot and all of the things that he tried to pull during that time is that it was indicative of an attitude, an authoritarian approach to government that doesn't just apply when he's trying to leave office. So for example, he wanted to shoot protesters, famously in the leg during the Black Lives Matter protests. And he at that time had some institutions around him. And I think it was Mark Milley in particular was like, you can't do that.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

My fear this time is he doesn't have those people around him anymore. And each of the institutions that held him back last time, Supreme Court, the Senate, the Department of Justice, the Pentagon, all of those, there's been a concerted effort to make sure that this time he is able to indulge his worst and most fascistic impulses. So that's why I almost feel like I've traveled like the opposite journey as you where in 2016, I was more like. And maybe who knows what we're gonna get out of this. This time I'm actually more concerned, especially because you have that Supreme Court immunity decision, which really does kind of give him carte blanche.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay, so I'm gonna get to the irony here. Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay.

[Cenk Uygur]

So why am I thinking the other way?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So, but first, let me double down on what you're saying. Cash Patel's a disaster. Pete Hegseth is a disaster. I actually thought Matt Gaetz was a mixed bag. Cause he is actually anti war and anti corruption. But of course he has a terrible personal life.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. But him being a mess might have actually been a good thing because he probably wouldn't have been that effective. But anyway.

[Cenk Uygur]

Right, so the Labor Secretary is great, given the Trump administration, possibly given the limitations.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

And then you've got the Team Israel, Marco Rubio, Stefanik. So I'm not in. Other than the Labor Secretary, I'm not interested in any of this. Right. So. And you're right, the Supreme Court has allowed him to be above the law, but on top of that, he has no accountability left. What are they gonna do, impeach him? What are they gonna do, arrest him? Right. No accountability. That breaks the law. And I agree with you, the establishment was a break in the car. Now that break has been taken out. So what in the world am I thinking? Being slightly optimistic. Well, there's two parts to it. One is the establishment being defeated. We gotta come back to that, cuz that's so important. Okay, but on Trump the new break in the car. And this is. This is me out on a limb. Okay.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay.

[Cenk Uygur]

Is right wing populists. So. Okay, I can see you're grimacing.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, listen, I mean, listen, I am, you know the show. I do. Right. And I love Sauger, but I am also very skeptical that that movement has significant sway or influence with Trump. But go ahead, make your case.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay, so I think that's wrong. So, number one, this is a different MAGA base than in 2016. The 2016 MAGA base was Trump is demigod. Whatever Trump says is by definition brought down to us from the heavens and will never be challenged. So I had no interest in that base. Right. And it was filled with old school Republicans, some establish guys, but not that many. But still they were hanging in there. Then they had the religious guys who were like, yeah, let's go kill everyone in the Middle east so Jesus can come back and stuff.

[Krystal Ball]

Like Chris Huckabee.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. But those guys have lost a lot of power within that base. So now within the right wing base, Pete Hegseth.

[Krystal Ball]

Sorry, I'll let you finish. But Pete Hegseth, Mike Huckabee, like Mike.

[Cenk Uygur]

Waltz, but Crystal Huckabee is team Miriam. Right. So she's the one.

[Krystal Ball]

He's team End times.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay, Yeah, I know, I know. So Miriam Adelson got Marco Rubio, Stefanik Huckabee and Walsey. Those are all neocons war hawks.

[Krystal Ball]

Hegseth too.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. And Hegseth with kill all the Muslims. I mean, I'm not unclear about that. And I know that in a lot of ways I'm in the crosshairs. Right. But don't discount the bros. Okay? So the bros have brought in a huge new part of his base. And don't discount the moderates that are so sick of the Democratic Party that they flipped over moderates independence to Trump. And they're not looking to deport every human being in America that isn't evangelical Christian. They're not looking. The bros don't even agree on abortion with the Republican Party. Right. So when you talk about Joe Rogan and Portnoy and all those guys, we have our disagreements with them, no question. Right? Yeah, but those guys are breaking the car if, let's say they do what one of Trump's potential picks was threatening to do, which is deport and denaturalize and arrest Mehdi Hasan.

[Krystal Ball]

Right, Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

That's a specific threat that one of the potential appointees had. Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Who said that?

[Cenk Uygur]

I think Mike Davis. Okay, so he was being considered for Attorney General. And so, by the way, good news, he didn't pick him. But Cash Patel says things like that. Hegson says things like that. I think if they go to do that, and this is where people can. You got me on tape. You'll say, ha ha. Cenk was so naive. That's when I think the Rogans of the world will come out and go, what are you doing? Really? I thought we were against Cancel Culture. I thought we were for freedom. You don't agree with Mehdi Hasan's position on Israel, so we're going to denaturalize him. A thing that doesn't even exist? No, I think they're gonna say no. Okay? And here's the absolute litmus test, okay? On Israel. So team Israel, Team Miriam will drive them towards war. Today Donald Trump said that he's going in that direction. He said that there's gonna be hell to pay for the Palestinians and for the entire Middle east if the hostages aren't returned. I don't know what more hell they could live in. Right? But that's Trump saying, I will murder anyone on behalf of Israel. Okay? And it will start any war on behalf of Israel. So am I right or am I wrong? We might find out instantly because for the moment being, they're saying the right wing populists. No, no, no. Trump would never do a war in the Middle East. No way. No way. But he's a tough guy and he's gonna threaten them and he's gonna get the hostages back. But what I'm trying to explain to them is, and I had this conversation with Rudy Giuliani at the rnc, brother, when you say he's threatening them, so that's good negotiation. But what if somebody calls his bluff? And in the case of the Palestinians, they don't have a choice because what Trump is saying is in order to get the hostages back, Israel wants to ethnically cleanse and take half of Gaza. No Palestinian will ever agree to that. Right. So we're gonna. Trump is threatening a giant war in the Middle East. If he does it, we're gonna find out if I'm right or wrong. Cuz at that point, I think the right wing populists and the bros go, no, brother, I didn't elect you to be a worse neocon than Biden.

[Krystal Ball]

Fair enough. And we'll see. But I'll tell you why I'm very skeptical. Because we already knew Trump's record from his first term. Like, he was not anti war and he was extremely hawkish towards Iran.

[Cenk Uygur]

But his base was anti war, he.

[Krystal Ball]

Was very pro Israel. And so this was already out there, right? And you still had people like RFK Jr and Tulsi Gabbard who were claiming he was anti war, even though they had said both of them totally contradictory things previously. And also claiming that he's anti censorship and pro free speech. I mean, to me that's just utterly preposterous. This is someone who wants to tighten the libel laws, who wants to criminalize flag burning. The Republican Party has launched a wave of bills across the country to crack down, protest, et cetera. And so even in spite of all of that, they still continue to hold him out as some beacon of free speech and beacon of anti war dovishness. And so when I see that, and I see there's already been this ability to erase all of the things that he's done in the past and pretend he is something that he's not, it's hard for me to imagine that dynamic changing. But we can put a pin in that because we are going to see soon enough what the reaction is gonna be. Cause I do wanna get to this piece about the establishment. Cause the other part that I have a question about here is you say the establishment has been defeated. And I should say, like, even in the Democratic Party, I think they have been dealt a blow. I think you see that in MSNBC's cratering ratings. I think that creates an opportunity, a possibility. But I don't think they've been defeated. I think it's very possible we end up with Pete and Gavin, or Gavin next time around in the Democratic primary. These people are very resilient. I think you have a lot of affluent liberals who will think that they could be the answer to the problems, etc. They still have a lot of money, power, but on the Republican side too, you know, for me, the ultimate, like, final boss establishment is the billionaires who rig the rules for their own benefit. And the billionaires have basically never been more blatantly in control than right now. Elon Musk is a perfect example of this. But we can actually put this next element up on the screen, guys. Trump has the wealthiest cabinet in history. I think there are six billionaires so far that he's picked to be part of his administration. And so to me, again, this is like the ultimate establishment. And they are fully in control of what's going to happen in the Trump administration.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Cenk Uygur]

That's right. Nobody does the holidays quite like today all season long. Join us for special performances with the brightest stars.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Cenk Uygur]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Cenk Uygur]

So I agree with you on all that. He's been hypocritical on every one of those issues. Censorship. And he said about in his first term, I don't want poor people in my cabinet.

[Savannah Guthrie]

That's right.

[Cenk Uygur]

He said, I like rich. Right. So he's been trying to get into that elite club his whole life. So the idea that he's against the elites is kind of funny. He is, but only because he's jealous.

[Krystal Ball]

He's against cultural elites, Hollywood, academia. He's not against the rich.

[Cenk Uygur]

No, that's not even true. He'd love to be in Hollywood.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, that's true.

[Cenk Uygur]

Right. But that's how he started a fake university.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But was he perceived as against the establishment? Yes. Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So that's when I. So when is the establishment annihilated? No, of course not. Are they going to make a comeback? Of course the Empire is going to strike back in 2028. Yeah, but the Empire struck back so many times. It struck back in 2016. 2020, 2024. And so maybe 2028 is, to extend this needless analogy, is the return of the Jedi. Right. And so I'm not under any illusion that the establishment is gone. Right. But did was Kamala Harris the more establishment candidate? Yes, of course she was. Right. And so did she lose? Yes. And as I explained in another tweet in that thread, it's not just that Kamala Harris lost. A lot of Hillary Clinton lost.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Joe Biden nearly lost. So it's not that. It's that mainstream media, which is the main weapon of the establishment, is now greatly reduced in its influence. Before we could not get past them in a Democratic primary, Bernie almost had it in 16, but certainly in 2020 when he won the first three states and mainstream media defeated him with their lies and propaganda. Right. He's gonna execute people in Central Park, He's a Nazi, et cetera.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So the mainstream media guys are the worst liars in the world. They lie way worse than even right wing media.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know about that.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay, we can have that discussion. I think you cannot find two bigger liars in America than Joe Scarborough and Whoopi Goldberg.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I hear you, but I also have been kind of black pill a lot of independent media because that tenant media situation where Tim Pool and whoever else were taking random sketchy money to put out whatever propaganda they were told to put out, I don't see what has grown up on the right in the independent media space as actually being better than the mainstream press.

[Cenk Uygur]

I totally disagree with you.

[Krystal Ball]

While I feel like what I agree with you on is there is a possibility that exists now that didn't before. And so I feel sort of. I guess what I relate to in your tweet is I would say I feel energized because there is a possibility that wasn't there that is there now. I think the most likely outcome is that things continue to get worse. That's why I don't feel like optimistic, because what I see over the next four years is you're probably gonna have a lot of cruelty towards immigrants. You're likely to have another inflationary Spiral. If he does half of the tariffs he's talking about, you could easily have more chaos in the Middle East. We're already seeing it. More brutality in the Middle East. That's almost certainly going to happen. We could have some giant crypto bubble as possible. Avian flu. Like, there's all kinds of things that I think could be horrible and brutal over the next four years and I can't look at that. I would love to feel optimistic that something. There's going to be a light at the end of the rainbow. And like I said, I do feel energized, but optimistic is just not. I would love to be there, but I'm not.

[Cenk Uygur]

So let me agree and disagree in part. So first of all, I agree with your facts. So when we're talking about online media, are the Russians involved? Are there fracking billionaires that are financing shows billionaire X and billionaire Y and do some of those shows totally serve those interests? Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

And they're reading the ads themselves, so there's not even like the appearance of an arm's length distance from the advertisers and the money.

[Cenk Uygur]

I get all that and I grant all that. Okay, so why then, given those facts and we're more optimistic about online media than mainstream media? Because mainstream media is a prison. And it's a prison in the past you could not break out of. There's guardrails. You are not allowed to say things outside those guardrails. You cannot talk about how the donors obviously control all the politicians obviously. You cannot talk about how Israel obviously controls Washington and Washington's occupied territory. It's so obvious. But if you say you're fired, you're fired, you're fired. I hate that prison. I despise that prison of lies that is establishment media. Okay, so now in online media, yeah, you got the Russians, you got this, you got wild and woolly crazy stuff. You got people I disagree with on the extreme left, on the extreme right. It's a mess in online media and I love it. Okay, that's the jungle. But Crystal, that's our jungle. Okay, so we started this jungle at the Young Turks. And breaking points of the Young Turks are in that are in those same woods.

[Krystal Ball]

Right?

[Cenk Uygur]

In the woods, we have to fight off the right, the left, the middle, the Russians, the Israelis, the Saudis, et cetera. Yeah, that's the woods, baby. Right, but we were born in those woods.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I heard what you cenk, I just, I've seen too much. I mean, you know what the incentives are like? The incentives are to Feed the algorithm. Incentives are to feed your audience whatever they want to hear. The incentives are to be, you know, ever more in your own bubble. And a lot of the incentives are the same like access driven ones and corruption driven ones as the mainstream press. There's a reason why you and I didn't get interviews with Kamala Harris. Cuz she knows we would ask her some tough questions. Of course there's a reason.

[Cenk Uygur]

So who gives a damn about getting interviews with Kamala Harris?

[Krystal Ball]

I'm just saying.

[Cenk Uygur]

Oh, I am Kamala Harris. I'm not interested in interviewing a corporate robot anyway.

[Krystal Ball]

But Cenk, my point is that a lot of people do care about that, which is why I mean, so much of right wing media is just like, you know, basically sucking off Trump and whatever he says and toeing the line because they want to maintain that access, they want to maintain their funding and their money and they want to feed their audience whatever they want to be fed. And so again, there's a possibility here and I don't want to quash that. I think it's really important and it excites me in the same respect. I'm clear eyed about what a cesspool a lot of independent media frankly is at this point. And so there's I guess a caution that I have about it as well.

[Cenk Uygur]

Crystal, nobody knows that better than me. Right. We've been doing this for two years.

[Krystal Ball]

I know that's right.

[Cenk Uygur]

So I. So we started when the Internet was a nice place. That's how old we are. Okay, so longest running show in Internet history, first YouTube partner, you know all that, right?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So my point is that I have gone through all of those different things and I'm perfectly aware of that. I'm not at all naive about it.

[Krystal Ball]

I know, right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But let me ask you a question back. You and I both worked at msnbc, so we worked in establishment media, we worked online media. What do you promote prefer?

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, definitely online media. But I'll tell you, Cenk, we've made some very specific decisions here, which is we don't do that. We will never talk to an advertiser. You know, we don't do ad reads. We have tried to intentionally create our business to avoid as much as possible. And we're still human beings, but as much as possible, some of the, you know, the pressures, the incentives, et cetera, that I think have led to, you know, most of the media ecosystem being not that great. And I think that's. I know you guys have made some of those choices in your own ways. Not exactly the same ones that we have. But most people like the money's green and they want me to read this ad for the ball coddlers or whatever it is. And I'm gonna do it and I'm not gonna look into that product. And if later down the road there's some problem with the product, I'm not gonna cover it because then I'm gonna have a problem with my funders. I think because we've made some specific decisions here, it has given us a lot of freedom. But I don't necessarily see those same incentives playing out across all of independent media, which has created. As much as I would love for us to be the model for everyone, that's not the reality of most of what exists out there.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, but so Crystal, I agree with you on all of that. Again, stimulate to all the facts. Right? But at least we've got a fighter's chance in online media. And what has our perseverance shown Tyt as a network? It's shown that when you buck all the tides and you don't take the obvious money, you don't serve those corporate interests and you get attacked by every side imaginable. Right establishment, right wing, left wing, everyone has attacked us and yet we're still the largest. So now that's not just to brag or anything. There's a real point in there which is, yes, but the audience values the truth. And so as difficult as it is day to day, oh, somebody lied about you, you lost a part of your audience, or someone else lied about you, you lost a part of your audience, but you still keep going and going and going. And those guys, they all fall off. They all fall off.

[Krystal Ball]

Daily Wire is way bigger than us and they are, you know, they're propagandists.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, but Daily Wire has gotten an enormous amount of money from corporate interest.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I know.

[Cenk Uygur]

So, but Crystal, that's in the short run. That's in the short run.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, that's just a business person, establishment media, you know, it's. I mean, they're not bucking the system. Right. They're just a new version on a different platform of effectively Fox News.

[Cenk Uygur]

I know, but Chris, I'm a business person and I can see that those models are unworkable in the long run. Basically what the right wing billionaires are doing is they have a marketing budget. Right. And their marketing budget goes to things like other right wing media. Right. Online right wing media. And I get it. And that's a big reservoir of money that the left doesn't have at all. Right. And so it's so ironic when they're like, Soros controls everything. Have you guys checked into how rightly media gets financed? Okay. Let alone the fact that Soros hasn't helped us a dime. Right. As far as I don't know about.

[Krystal Ball]

You guys, but not us, definitely.

[Cenk Uygur]

So I get all that. But they don't have margins. It's not a real business. Okay. It's not a real business if you have to rely on, as Dennis Prager does, $23 million a year from right wing billionaires. Right. That's just a marketing, short term marketing operation. Whereas building a real business where people actually value what you're doing, value the truth, that is sustainable in the long run. And we've proven that.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

So look, last thing on Trump in terms of why.

[Krystal Ball]

And then I wanna talk and then I wanna talk some about Elon, if you don't.

[Cenk Uygur]

No, I don't mind at all on why I'm not despondent as I was in 2016.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay. So there's the right wing base, but there's one other thing with Trump, he loves being popular. So you gotta get one decent person in the room to show him how to be popular. Cause I don't think he knows how. He's just grasping a straw. He's blind. Right. He keeps doing ab testing. He's like, okay, what's more popular being pro immigrant or anti immigrant? He did that like back in 2015 he went on a radio tour and he's like, pro immigrant. No, that's not okay. Anti immigrant. Oh yeah. Okay. People like that, right?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

But paid family leave is popular, popular. Health care is popular, higher wages is popular. And the right wing populists like all that. Anti war, anti corruption, those are all popular. And the right wing populists agree with the left wing populists. So there is an area of possible agreement there that could get something done that the establishment would never do. The establishment would never be anti war, they would never be anti corruption, they would be never anything positive. So we've broken out of that prison and that prison was the worst place in the world. And it was filled with nothing but gaslighting about the American people suck and the donors are the greatest, the politicians are honest.

[Krystal Ball]

I just don't know who is gonna be that voice. Number one, because his administration has largely been filled with almost with a few exclusions. I think the Labor Secretary is a notable one, but with almost all sort of right wing ideologues. And number two, I guess Part of what I'm grappling with as well is if you go down the list of issues, I'm all for a horseshoe. And I think there are some areas there to work with Josh Hawley or work with. It used to be Marco Rubio actually was kind of interesting on some of the economic stuff. Like Matt Gates also was interested in some of the economics, all for horseshoe, working with elected representatives, etc. But if you go down the list, I think you and I are mostly ideologically in the same place. I'm sure we have some differences, but I think we're by and large ideologically in the same place. If I go down a list, I am on almost every issue closer to the Kamala Harris Democrat than I am to the Donald Trump Republican, whether it's healthcare or wages or labor or any of these things. And so that's what's kind of. That's what's a little bit, like, dissonant for me is, you know, if we're caring about the policy outcomes, I think I'm much more likely to get improvement, not the things we would want, like Medicare for all, but much more likely to get improvement on the policy outcomes that I would want to see from a Kamala Harris. So react to that. But also, like, are you saying that you're actively happy that Trump beat her at this point?

[Cenk Uygur]

No, but so what I was gonna say is, since I agree with you ideologically that I'm closer to the theoretical Kamala Harris positions, that's why I voted for Kamala Harris instead of Donald. And I'm worried that Donald Trump, again, never called him a Nazi, never called him Hitler, but fascist is another word for authoritarian. Right. And so, yeah, I'm worried that Donald Trump's an authoritarian. So that's why I voted. And he said to terminate the Constitution. That's why I voted for Kamala Harris. Okay. So now, having said that, now that he has won. Right. I would have preferred an actual populace instead of what I view to be a fake populist. Right. But now that he has won, there is a tiny rail of hope that did not exist in the establishment prison.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, I hear that.

[Cenk Uygur]

So last thing on that is, I'll give you a specific example. Paid family leave. Is Trump likely to do it? No, of course not. Right. And was Kamala Harris going to do it? No, of course not. Okay. No, there's a. I think he had.

[Krystal Ball]

A better chance with her then.

[Cenk Uygur]

No, I totally disagree. That's where I disagree. The establishment never waivers. They will do what corporate donors tell them not 99% of the time, 100% of the time.

[Krystal Ball]

That's not true.

[Cenk Uygur]

It is 100%.

[Krystal Ball]

But Cenk, I can give you this.

[Cenk Uygur]

I will debate you on any of these.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay. I'll give you some specific examples from the Biden administration, which is antitrust. Lina Khan, right? The Wall Street Journal hated him for that. The billionaires hated him for that. I mean, this is. That was big pressure campaign they put on Kamala Harris to make sure she got rid of Lina Khan and such so that he was the most pro labor president we have had in our lifetimes.

[Cenk Uygur]

That is the lowest bar there is, of course.

[Krystal Ball]

But these are two areas where the donors did not want this. Right. And his National Labor Relations Board, the general counsel, Jennifer Abruzzo, genuinely sort of revolutionary in her approach. They ended captive audience meetings, for one example. A lot of the decisions she made helped to enable this grassroots labor organizing surge. And so that was a break from neoliberalism. Now he has destroyed any possible positive legacy with genocide in Gaza and all kinds of other things besides and being so arrogant, not getting out of the way, et cetera. But he did break with what the billionaires wanted and what the donors wanted in a few key areas. And I think we are very like, that is not gonna happen with Trump. Trump has already handed so much government power. And this will help us transition into Elon to Elon Musk with this Doge thing. I mean, Elon is not only the richest man on the planet, but he also has massive multibillions of dollars in government contracts. He's one of the Pentagon's largest contractors. And whether it's Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates or whoever, I, as a matter of principle object to like, rule by billionaires, rule by unelected billionaires. And that is, this is like the most clear manifestation of that that I've ever seen.

[Cenk Uygur]

So for Biden and Obama, what they do is a release valve, right? So they'll give you 5 to 10% change.

[Krystal Ball]

Sure.

[Cenk Uygur]

And I would argue that Biden at his Height actually did 15% of his agenda. So for Democrats, that's like record breaking. We're only lying 85% of the time.

[Krystal Ball]

No, I agree with that.

[Cenk Uygur]

So they say, well, look, we gave you a little release valve, so you don't do a revolution. We gave you Lina Khan, we gave you a decent National Labor Relations Board. Now, of course, we didn't give you the pro act. Don't be ridiculous. We're not gonna actually promise, but how.

[Krystal Ball]

Many Democrats supported the pro act and how many Republicans.

[Cenk Uygur]

No, but that's my point. That's my point, Crystal. Those Democrats are liars. They don't actually support the pro act. They don't actually support any of those policy positions. Giant, enormous liars. So you saw it on $15 minimum wage. We're for $15 minimum wage. And Joe Biden's like, get it out of the goddamn bill. Right? He said in the first interview in the super bowl, he said, no, we can't do 15 minimum minimum wage. Why? And I remember talking to people in Congress saying, cenk, what are you worried about? It's guaranteed, it's guaranteed. Nancy Pelosi told us it's guaranteed. Right. And what did we do? We forced a vote on it. And what happened? Eight sellout Democratic senators voted against the $15 minute, including the two Biden senators.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know how many Republicans voted against.

[Cenk Uygur]

No, no, but Crystal, I stipulate that the Republicans are totally corrupt.

[Krystal Ball]

Are you? Because it seems like you're saying that you're more likely to get like something real out of them than you are out of the Democrats. And look, I'm clear eyed about the Democrats. You know, I've been plenty critical of them in their many failings, but I just don't think that's true. And you know, part of it is that Democrats get significant funding from labor unions and that's a part of their coalition. And so that's part of why they're.

[Cenk Uygur]

Part of their coalition.

[Krystal Ball]

That's part of why. That's part of why they have been more. I mean, they have just. The Biden administration in particular was pretty consistently pro labor. And I think they deserve, you know, I think they deserve some credit for that. And we didn't drag him to the.

[Cenk Uygur]

Picket line and finally makes it to a picket line. Everybody's like, my God, a Democrat didn't lie.

[Krystal Ball]

100% of the Democrats are perfect. But Donald Trump is a strikebreaker. Like, he bragged. He went to Elon Musk and was like, isn't that awesome how you fired these striking workers? But Kristal Nuke, he has been a union buster his entire career. His first NLRB and labor secretary were horrendous. It kind of feels like you are.

[Cenk Uygur]

No, no, no, no. Look, so let's be super clear about it, right? So if you say to me establishment Republicans Suck, I agree 200%. But the Republican populist base that elected Trump did a revolution against Mitch McConnell did a revolution against that he was.

[Krystal Ball]

Anti Trump, not because of his like corporate, whatever. Trump passed the biggest tax cut, but it's not.

[Cenk Uygur]

But nevertheless, nevertheless, the establishment Republicans are defeated and humiliated and I love it.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, I don't think they are Cenk. Marco Rubio is Secretary of State.

[Cenk Uygur]

But let's see what happens with the right wing base when he goes to start that war. We're gonna find out. So no, here I'll give you two specific examples. Number one on page, family leave. Neither one of them is likely to do it. And no, I'm not thinking everything is rainbows and sunshine and oh my God, Trump's gonna be amazing. No, he is more likely to do what he has done in the past. And what he's done in the past is bad. Bad to terrible.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, yes.

[Cenk Uygur]

So I've got that at about 75%. Everyone else has it at 99 or 100%. That is on our side. Right. And I think that that is wrong. I think there's a 25% chance that that right wing base and his desire for popularity makes a difference. I think with corporate Democrats you would have never ever gotten paid family leave. Even though polls at 84%, they're enormous liars. All they have to do is introduce it and it passes. Right. So the fact that they know that they could just introduce it and have it pass and they won't do it anyway shows you they are hopeless. They are 100% donor driven and every once in a while I release them. Valve. Release valve. Okay, so on the pressure, but on the Republican side, if you convince Donald Trump that paid family leave will make it more popular, he'll do it overnight because he doesn't care about Mitch McConnell.

[Krystal Ball]

Right wing ideologues around. I mean, this is the thing.

[Cenk Uygur]

I know there's ideologues, but then what are you going to do? Give up hope?

[Krystal Ball]

You just can't. You just can't. No, but you have to.

[Cenk Uygur]

And then let's talk about the Pentagon.

[Krystal Ball]

No, but you have. Let's talk about the Pentagon. Because I do think that's an interesting point of conversation. If I look at how many Democrats support the pro act and how many Republicans. If I look at how many Democrats support paid family leave and how many Republicans. I'm not saying the Democrats are great, but I am saying that that release valve is vastly superior to. With Trump, you're going to get some level of extremely cruel border policy which is going to cause unbelievable pain to a number of people. You are going to probably get west bank annexation and more brutality in the Middle East. And so I just can't sort of. Well, yeah, I'll have a hope and a prayer that maybe something positive will come out somewhere. Like I'm just clear eyed about. I think there's gonna be a lot of pain and cruelty and unnecessary suffering caused by this administration. So that's why it's hard for me to relate to like a sense of optimism about the possibility even as again, I'm all for a good horseshoe if there's an issue. You know, Bernie Sanders has done this also working with, I think Josh Hawley on stimulus checks. Do it great, get what you can. But also, like I said before, I think what's likely to happen, the most likely outcome is just things are gonna get overall worse. And that's where I am.

[Cenk Uygur]

Look, I don't know how many times I can repeat it before people believe me. I know Donald Trump has done terrible things in the past. That's why I fought tooth and nail against him in all of the elections. I know what is more likely. I know how awful the Republicans have been in the past.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay. The only point of disagreement is I think some of those right wing voters are not as horrific as you think they are.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't think the voters are horrific. I don't think that at all. I think that there is no track record of them constraining Donald Trump, holding him to account. He has become the central figure in the Republican Party and however he wants to spin things, whatever case he wants to make, what I have seen is people consistently, even in this era, even with new parts of the coalition, etcetera, I have seen them fall in line. And that's where the RFK Jr. And the Tulsi example.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, I get it. So if I said to you, who is more likely to cut the Pentagon? Joe Biden, Kamala Harris or Donald Trump?

[Krystal Ball]

None.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay.

[Krystal Ball]

Donald Trump increased the defense budget every year that he was an officer, of.

[Cenk Uygur]

Course, and he bragged about. Okay. So I agree that none of them are likely to cut it. But with Trump, because of his right wing base and his desire for popularity, I have it at possible with Biden and Harris, it had a zero percent chance because they work for the goddamn donors. They would never cut the military.

[Krystal Ball]

So does Trump.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, he went to oil executives and was like, give me a billion dollars and I'll do whatever you want me to do.

[Cenk Uygur]

Chris, you don't have to convince me of that.

[Krystal Ball]

Totally flipped on crypto.

[Cenk Uygur]

You know, crypto is gonna be a disaster. You don't have to convince me of that. But My. But here's. Let me see if I could break through one last time. Okay, so if Biden said, if Kamala Harris had won and she developed a conscience, which is nearly impossible, and said, you know what, this Pentagon is bloated. Look at all this fraud and abuse. They can't find $400 billion, that's it. I'm cutting $200 billion from the Pentagon. Even if she had done that, which had a zero percent chance, the Democrats would have stopped her. Not just the Republicans, but the Democrats would have found a way to stop her and not allow her to cut the Pentagon. So there was no hope at all. A black hole of hope. Okay, with Trump. If the Republicans go to stop him, if he goes to cut the Pentagon, they won't be able to. If Mitch McConnell goes and Rick Scott goes, you won't cut the Pentagon, Trump. What did you say, bitch? Okay. I mean Mitch. Okay, right. And Mitch McConnell be like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. We're cutting the Pentagon, everybody. We're cutting the Pentagon because Trump has them bullied. That is another advantage of Trump that he could bully the establishment, this grotesque establishment.

[Krystal Ball]

So his sort of authoritarian tendencies, jiu jitsu move, jujitsu, end up being a benefit. It's your position.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Cenk Uygur]

That's right. Nobody does the holidays quite like today all season long. Join us for a special performances with the brightest stars.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Plus festive recipes to whip up the perfect holiday feast and great deals on the hottest toys and gifts for everyone on your list.

[Cenk Uygur]

So join us every morning on NBC.

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Krystal Ball]

I do want to just quickly because we've already gone on a long time. I don't want to keep you too long, but I do want to talk a little bit about the Elon thing and we can put up the Bernie Sanders tweet you had reached out to Elon, like, hey, I'll, you know, I'll help you cut the Pentagon budget if you're serious about this. Bernie Sanders says something similar. Elon Musk is right. The Pentagon just failed its seventh audit. That must change, blah, blah, blah. Obviously, I would like to see the Pentagon's budget cut. I will tell you, like I said, I am all for working for the with the elected representatives as Bernie has done in the past with Josh Hawley and others on areas of agreement. Totally fine with my, maybe my core litmus test. And you and I were talking about this before, like if I was to design the Democratic Party from scratch, the litmus test would all be around economics and there would be a larger tent around cultural issues, even as I personally have mostly lefty issues on positions on cultural issues. But pretty core litmus test for me is we shouldn't be allowing unelected billionaires to effectively run the government. And so on this particular issue, I do come down in a different place than you because I think this project of giving Elon Musk, richest man on the planet, one of the Pentagon's largest contractors, who's embroiled in all sorts of regulatory disputes around labor violations and environmental degradation and SEC violations, giving him carte blanche to remake the government however he wants to, like just out of principle, I think that's a project overall that should be opposed.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. So totally agree. But that's not where we are. So let's talk about the agreement and then let's talk about what to do going forward. Okay, so this is what I told the Republicans and the right wing voters and the independents before the election. Look, Donald Trump openly brags about his corruption. He goes, I used to be against electric vehicles, but then Elon gave me a very strong endorsement. So now.

[Krystal Ball]

So here we are. Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

I'm like, you just admitted that you are the swamp. Right. And so. And he brags about, oh, Sheldon Adelson gave me a strong endorsement back in 2016 and 2020. That means $100 million in both races. Right. So he said. So I moved the embassy for him. You just admitted that you gave us foreign policy to a donor. And he's now done that with Miriam Adelson. He's saying, yeah, I'll start any war Israel wants because Miriam gave me $137 million on TikTok. He was even more brazen. He was like, I was against TikTok, tried to get a ban, but Jeff Yass gave me a strong endorsement.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right. Crypto, same deal.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. And so now I'm for TikTok. So he admits his corruption in spectacular fashion. It's unbelievable. Would I allow Elon Musk in an ideal world to basically have power over at least half the government just because he's one of the top donors to Donald Trump? No. I don't want billionaire donors in charge of the government. Right. So that is clear and obvious. And I hope one day right wing populist finally realize maybe billionaire donors aren't our friends, maybe that they're rigging the rules not to our benefit, but to their benefit. Right. So I understand and stipulate to all that. But nevertheless, Trump won. And here's Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy who are going to be in charge of this.

[Krystal Ball]

Billionaires. Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

Who are going to be in charge of this department, whatever the hell this department is, which is really the whole government. Right?

[Krystal Ball]

Right, that's right.

[Cenk Uygur]

And so I say half the government, but it's not. It's the whole government. And so how do I make the best of it? Well, we've always wanted to cut the Pentagon. Right. So if they're looking to make cuts, I suggest the idea of cutting the Pentagon. Now, normally that's where it would end. Especially if I said that to Joe Biden or Kamala Harris, they'd be like, get out of here, you loser. Online media populist loser.

[Krystal Ball]

They wouldn't have noticed.

[Cenk Uygur]

No way. Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Biden doesn't know how to log into Twitter.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah. So they'd be like, no way. They'd go and give a general a handy and be like, no, don't worry, General, don't worry. Joe Biden's here to protect you. Right. And so would Mitch McConnell. So would every dirtbag Republican. Right. So, but here Elon Musk And Donald Trump Jr. Said, maybe, maybe, maybe we do that. Right?

[Krystal Ball]

Maybe we do.

[Cenk Uygur]

Then I suggested a conflict of interest rule where the generals can't be defense, go work for defense contractors afterwards. Right. And why did Elon. This is the important part. I'm trying to get through to you.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

Why did Elon And Donald Trump Jr. Go, all right, Cenk, attaboy. Not a thing.

[Krystal Ball]

They would normally say because they like saying, even lefty Cenk Uygur agrees with the Department of Efficiency. That's why.

[Cenk Uygur]

So, Chris, I totally get that.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

And I understand that that's part of their motivation.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

But the main motivation was not that. The main motivation is because on X they could see all of their base going, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Krystal Ball]

Because their base also likes, even Lefty Jank Uyghur is on board with Department of Government Efficiency. Like, I understand where you're coming from. I understand where Bernie's coming from. Of like, listen, this is the world and we have to deal with it and we're gonna get what we can get. If you're talking about an elected representative, I am 100% on board with all of that. With this specific project. I think it's dangerous to normalize. Giving billionaires this level of control over the government and your willingness to engage with it, which again, I understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying you're bad or evil or whatever for doing it, but I think this level of engagement gives this project of total billionaire control over the federal government a sense of bipartisan legitimacy and creates the appearance that genuinely beneficial things are going to come out of it, when I do not think that genuinely beneficial things are going to come out of it overall, even if there are things that they cut that you and I would both be like, okay, that's fine that they cut that. Because look, Elon Musk, he is himself one of the largest Pentagon contractors. He has all of these massive conflicts of interest. This is a project like any normal Koch Brothers type right wing project to strip the capability of the government so that it's less able to regulate and constrain robber barons like Elon Musk or any other of the billionaire class that has rigged the economy. And so that's why? In this specific instance, I think it's more important to just oppose the project outright and try to explain to people why this is a really perditious development in our nation's history versus giving it some credibility by being, look, they might do some good things and they might work with me on this or that proposal.

[Cenk Uygur]

So. Totally agree, totally disagree. The part I agree on is, yeah, it's a pernicious project. I don't want to validate. Billionaires running the government, donors running the government. That was a problem with the establishment in the first place. Right. And yes, Elon Musk has enormous conflicts of interest, not just with the Pentagon. He wants to get rid of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Why?

[Krystal Ball]

Because they're the cops on Wall street and the nlrb.

[Cenk Uygur]

And why do they want to get rid of that? Because it serves as billionaire interest. Right. So I'm trying to. I hope to God, I know it's a tough, tough task, but get the right wing populist to realize he's another donor. Wake up, wake up. He's a donor and he wants to get rid of the cops that are regulating him. Right. And so some.

[Krystal Ball]

He wants to defund the police, just the white collar police.

[Cenk Uygur]

That's literally the analogy I use. He wants to defund the police on Wall Street. Right. Some people online think. Cenk, are you going to call him out on the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau? Of course. Consumer Financial protection bureau saves $20 for every dollar we spend on it. They get back $20 billion for every 1 billion we spend. But not only that, the 20 billion is money that the bankers stole from us. Right. And they admit that they stole it and that's why they pay those fines, etc. So it's actually the best part of the government. I agree with all of that. But they are in charge. We did lose. So, like on immigration, I agree with you. They're gonna do some awful things on immigration that I don't agree with. But the voters did kind of vote for that. Okay. And we have to be cognizant of that.

[Krystal Ball]

No. Right.

[Cenk Uygur]

But the voters didn't vote for a giant war in the Middle East. They voted against that, not for that. Right. The voters did vote against corruption at large. Yeah. Maybe they got misdirected by Trump. Right. But they still hate corruption at their core. So if you can make them see the corruption now in the midst of all of that, though, if you say me, Ro Khanna and Bernie Sanders shouldn't legitimize this and instead should go, hey, you know What? Cut Medicare and Medicaid first. Don't worry about the Pentagon. Don't worry about the conflicts of interest. Don't worry about cutting the Pentagon. Cut the best parts of the budget first. No, no, no.

[Krystal Ball]

I guess where you and I disagree is I just do not believe that they actually are serious about like any positive. Like I don't believe they're going to cut the Pentagon, period. And so that I think that may be partly why come down in a different place. But also my position really is that with this particular project, because it is so pernicious to just give carte blanche to a group of billionaires with massive conflicts of interest, like some of the largest conflicts of interest you can imagine, I think to me the most important approach to that is just to oppose it. But I understand where you're, I get where you're coming from, Chad.

[Cenk Uygur]

I wanna address something to the audience. Can I. This my camera here? Okay. Yeah. So right wing populists, it is now your job to prove Krystal wrong.

[Krystal Ball]

Go out and do it, y'all, so.

[Cenk Uygur]

She doesn't believe you. And by the way, almost no one on the left other than me and Anna believe you guys that you actually wanna cut the Pentagon and that you could pressure Elon Musk and Donald Trump to cut the Pentagon. So are you gonna prove the left wrong or are you gonna prove them spectacularly right? Am I gonna have to come on here and apologize to Krystal forever believing in any right wing populist and say I was a sucker? Those guys are liars. They all they wanna do was increase the Pentagon, have more wars, more corruption, and they never held Trump accountable. We waited four long years for them to hold him accountable and all they did was kiss his ass and show that they don't really believe in free. They said all this stuff about freedom, but they never meant it. They said all this stuff about drain the swamp, but they never meant it. They said all this anti war stuff, but they never meant it. We're gonna come back on here in one year, two years, four years, and we're gonna keep doing a check. So if right wing populists are frauds, I'm gonna say, crystal, you were right, there were frauds all along. Okay, But I don't think so. I think they actually mean it.

[Krystal Ball]

Let me just say we already have some examples. So I'll give you one and then we can wrap things. I'll give you the final word and we can wrap things up here. But RFK Jr put in at HHS or Nominated to be put in at hhs, talking a big game about getting bad stuff out of the food system. I agree with you. Agree with that. Taking on Big Ag, et cetera. Trump just put in for the USDA and at the fda, Brooke Rollins, who's a total corporate, you know, Big Ag, she'll be Ag Secretary, Big Ag shill. Now, RFK had come with a list of like, here's who I want to help me in my project. And he's like, no, I'm going to go with the lady who's going to be friendly to, like, Big Ag interest. Have you heard a word? Have you heard RFK Jr come out? Have you heard any of his followers come out and be like, oh, my God, like they're going back on Maha already? No. And so that's why I am highly skeptical that you're going to see any level of, like, expectant, consistent adherence to principle and holding of account of Donald Trump. Because I just have never, never seen that before. Remember before he ran in 2016, he said he was gonna give everybody healthcare and then he didn't and everyone was just like, yeah, that's fine. So I just, I see no indication that it will be at all different this time around. And I see a lot of indications that it will actually be worse because he will be more unchained and given more freedom to pursue his absolute worst and most authoritarian instincts, thanks to the Supreme Court's decision and the effort that was engaged in, in the off season to get the most ideological sycophants put into positions of power and to bring everybody to heel this time around.

[Cenk Uygur]

Yeah, I see the same indications you do of the bad impulses.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Cenk Uygur]

But I see an indication of good impulses from the right wing voters that you do not see. So, for example, on Team Israel, Rubio, Stephanie, etc.

[Krystal Ball]

I just think they're busy, you know, they're busy and they decided to trust this guy and they're just going to trust this guy.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay, that's what I'm saying. I think you're wrong. What I have seen is they don't like Team Israel because Team Israel is Team war, Team Neocon, etc.

[Krystal Ball]

That's just not what the polling suggests. Most Republicans are of Team Israel.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay, all right, let's find out. We're going to find out.

[Krystal Ball]

If you look at the polling, Democrats overwhelmingly were in favor of a ceasefire and in favor of an arms embargo. Republicans are, I think, in favor of a ceasefire, but they are not in favor of an arms embargo. They are much more favorable as a group. There are some exceptions, but as a group towards Israel. And so anyway, I, you know, I don't want to belabor that point in particular because I know you're making a broader point about a variety of issues.

[Cenk Uygur]

And on Besant, the Treasury Secretary, I've seen pushback on that, that I've seen pushback on some candidate, on some nominees that I've never seen among Republicans before. So maybe that pushback is a mirage and I'm not expecting it right out of the gate. Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting right wing populists to rise up and go, cash Patel is a lunatic and we're not in trouble.

[Krystal Ball]

No, they love him.

[Cenk Uygur]

Right? They love him. Yeah, I get it. I get. So those are the bad impulses. I see it, I'm not unaware of it, but I'm also seeing actual anti corruption, anti war impulses and I would rather feed those good impulses than to say we hate you all. I never want to talk to you guys. I don't trust you and I think you're only going to do evil in the world. I don't think that's productive.

[Krystal Ball]

I just want to say, and I.

[Cenk Uygur]

Also don't think it's true.

[Krystal Ball]

I just want to say, just to make it really clear when I'm being critical, I'm being critical of the elites, the Trump's, the Elon Musk, the Vivek Ramaswamy's. This is not meant to slime everybody who voted for. And that's something I've really tried to be consistent about throughout the Trump era and something Sagar and I have really tried to engage with. I'm just, I think what we've seen in the past is likely to be what we see in the future.

[Cenk Uygur]

So let's see if the right wing bros, the right wing populists, the Rogans of the world, if they have any integrity at all, we're going to find out. Out. Right. And are they gonna hold Trump accountable or are you right and the rest of the left. Right. That they're not gonna hold him accountable at all and they're gonna let him be a runaway freight.

[Krystal Ball]

Rogan is supposedly gonna go do some shows at Mar a Lago, so we'll see if he asks any challenging questions about the principles there. We may find out pretty quickly here. Cenk.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay, so last thing I'll say on the Democrats.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Cenk Uygur]

So you're right, the establishment's gonna strike back, right? So if there's One takeaway from this, it's not from this whole conversation. It's not about Trump. It's not about the right wing populace. It's that for Democrats. Do not let your guard down. They're gonna bring back Gavin Newsom and Pete Buttigieg and all the corporate robots.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely.

[Cenk Uygur]

Okay. We need. The only thing that could defeat right wing populism is left wing populism. Okay. Or we join forces on some issues. Great, wonderful. Right. But if you go back the establishment route, that is a dead end. It has no. Forget whether you're progressive or you're more conservative Democrat or more corporate Democrat. Forget. Put that aside. They have no chance of winning. It's over. It's over. They're gonna run into that brick wall 100 times and Scarborough and the viewer are gonna lie to you every time. Oh, you gotta pick the corporate guy. The corporate guy is the one who's the only one who could win. Right? Right. Do not let them lie to you in that 2028 primary. It is imperative that we pick a populist left winger in 2028. Otherwise we have no chance of retaking the White House.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, well, and not even, not even. Just no chance of retaking the White House, but no chance of really delivering for people. And ultimately, I don't give a shit whether the Democratic Party wins or loses. That's, I think what you and I, where we find common ground is I actually want to make life easier and better for people in this country. So, Cenk, love you, brother. Always great to see you. Glad to see you in town here.

[Cenk Uygur]

Thank you.

[Krystal Ball]

Although I do feel bad for you. What is LA is probably like in the 70s right now? It's fucking cold as hell here right now. So I don't know what you're thinking about.

[Cenk Uygur]

Well, I'm going to Florida next to do Patrick Red Davis.

[Savannah Guthrie]

All right.

[Krystal Ball]

All right, There you go.

[Cenk Uygur]

I'm going to relax for two days before heading back to la. But it's freezing out here. But I'm warmed by our conversation and the love in this room.

[Krystal Ball]

All right, thank you, Cenk. And thank you guys so much for watching. I will see you. Counterpoints will be in tomorrow and we'll see you back here on Thursday.

[Cenk Uygur]

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