← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
12/3/25: Trump Demands Somalis Out Of US, Hillary Complains About Pro-Palestine TikTok, UK PM Tries To Silence Emily
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- [00:00]
Host/Announcer
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- [01:06]
Sami Hamdi
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Crystal
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Ryan Grim
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Sami Hamdi
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- [02:04]
Crystal
I O hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here.
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Host/Announcer
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
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Crystal
This is the only place where you.
- [02:15]
Ryan Grim
Can find honest perspectives from the left.
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Crystal
And the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [02:19]
Host/Announcer
So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
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Crystal
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breakingpoints.com well in Donald Trump's marathon year end two hour plus cabinet meeting at the White House yesterday, you won't be surprised that he brought up the allegations that about a billion dollars in taxpayer money was stolen in three different fraud schemes perpetrated mostly by Somalis in Minnesota. Now, this is what Trump had to say. We're gonna break it down, but those are the allegations as they stand, of the people who've been charged, I believe only eight are not Minnesota Somalis part of the diaspora. So that's where this is coming from. Obviously you've probably already seen the New York Times ran a big story about this semaphore reports. That story came after or came out when it did because the New York Times was trying to beat Chris Ruffo of the Manhattan Institute and City Journal. So conservative think tank to the P because they outlined their story, which is a bit different from the New York Times story. And I think Ryan and I will get into why, because Rufo actually alleged, based on sourcing that some of the money because it was going to remittances, which are a huge part of Somalia's economy, were funding Al Shabaab. That's we're going to put aside for just one second and take a listen here to what Donald Trump and Kristi Noem had to say. Let's start with Trump.
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Donald Trump
Yesterday, Somalians ripped off that state for billions of dollars, billions every year, billions of dollars. And they contribute nothing. The Welfare is like 88%. They contribute nothing. I don't want them in our country. I'll be honest with you. Somebody would say, oh, that's not politically correct. I don't care. I don't want them in our country. Their country is no good for a reason. Their country stinks and we don't want them in our country. I could say that about other countries, too. I can say it about other countries, too. We don't want them to help. We got to. We have to rebuild our country. You know, our country's at a tipping point. We could go bad. We're at a tipping point. I don't know if people mind me saying that, but I'm saying it. We could go one way or the other and we're going to go the wrong way if we keep taking in garbage into Our country. Ilhan Omar is garbage. She's garbage. Her friends are garbage. These aren't people that work. These aren't people that say, let's go, come on, let's make this place great. These are people that do nothing but complain.
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Crystal
And here's what Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem said at that same cabinet meeting. You told me to look into Minnesota and their fraud on visas and their programs.
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Kristi Noem
50% of them are fraudulent.
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Crystal
Which means that that wacko Governor Walls.
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Kristi Noem
Either is an idiot or he did it on purpose.
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Crystal
And I think he's bold, sir. He brought people in there illegally that never should have been in this country.
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Kristi Noem
Said they were somebody that they're not. They said they were married to somebody who was their brother or somebody else.
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Crystal
Fraudulent visa applications, signed up for government programs, took hundreds of billions of dollars from the taxpayers and we're going to.
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Kristi Noem
Remove them and we're going to get our money back.
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Crystal
So, Noam, echoing Trump's harsh language about Minnesota Governor Tim Walz there, Trump called Tim Walz, quote, seriously retarded. Over the weekend. Walz went on Meet the Press and responded. Here's a little bit from that.
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Ryan Grim
Certainly, I take responsibility for putting people in jail. Governors don't get to just talk. Theoretically, we have to solve problems. And I will note, it's not just Somalis. Minnesota is a generous state. Minnesota is a prosperous state, a well state. We're AAA bond rated. But that attracts criminals. Those people are going to jail. We're doing everything we can. But to demonize an entire community on the actions of a few, it's lazy.
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Crystal
So Walls taking credit there for what has been a federal investigation. Walls really has not had much to do with it. Ryan, there's a lot to talk about in this story. What's your initial reaction to the back and forth of the last few days?
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Ryan Grim
That well, so, and we can. Should we get into Rufo's more sweeping claims or first we can talk about the general claims here. Like, is there, is there, you know, public benefit fraud among the Somali community in Minnesota? Yes, it's a thing like they, you know, there have been some major prosecutions and that's, you know, to Walz's point, that have, that have targeted. Now, on the one hand, if you go looking in a particular community for more fraud, you're gonna find more fraud. On the other hand, there's a good piece by Casa Magin, who is one of the prosecutors in.
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Crystal
Is this the Minnesota Reformer piece? Yeah, yeah, we can put this up on the screen. This is actually really Good. This is E5.
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Ryan Grim
He was one of the prosecutors. He is himself of Somali descent. I would recommend people go and read this piece. But he makes a couple points. One, he says that a lot of the Somalis who are here now in the United States.
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Crystal
And this is from 2024, by the way, before the story blew up.
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Ryan Grim
Right. He wrote this summer of 2024. So, yeah, these cases have been going on for a while. He said a lot of them have much more education and experience than they're able to use here in the United States. And you see this a lot. Let's say, you know, somebody is, you know, was like a colonel in the military and is now driving an Uber.
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Crystal
Yeah.
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Ryan Grim
Or, you know, or what have you.
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Crystal
Right.
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Ryan Grim
And he makes the point that that's going to create a lot of frustration that can lead to a desire to take shortcuts to get back ahead to where you feel like you should be because you worked so hard your whole life, and now. And now here you are, and you feel like that's unjust because you've got a family to support here, plus you're sending remittances back to Somalia, and that's an enticement to fraud. He also makes the point, and this is a point that applies across the country and applies very particularly in South Florida as well. It is true that there are different communities that are more, you know, prone to fraud. South Florida being a perfect example of this. What he. What he argued is that we are the US System or the state system is set up to go after recipient fraud.
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Crystal
Yeah.
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Ryan Grim
Like if you're fudging the paperwork and you're ripping off the government, like, we're like, aha, we got you.
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Crystal
Right.
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Ryan Grim
But if you're a dentist office or you're a doctor's office or a fake doctor's office, or you make fake wheelchairs or whatever.
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Crystal
Right.
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Ryan Grim
Or you. You give out free meals, and the meals are funded by the state or whatever, and you then pay off, give kickbacks to recipients. So now all your paperwork's kind of in line. You're just not doing anything that is harder for. For prosecutors and investigators to catch based on the way that we're set up.
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Crystal
Yeah.
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Ryan Grim
And that's all. That's a complaint I've had about our public benefit system forever, which is that. Think about who that is benefiting. Those are the richer people who are pillars of the community and who are donating big amounts to politicians, and that's of people of European descent, Somali descent, Cuban descent, Venezuelan descent. Doesn't matter like those types of people. Rick Scott, for instance, is one of the greatest perpetrators. He's the Florida senator of Medicare fraud in the history of the United States. But because he is at the top of it, he had to pay a gigantic fine. And I think he admitted no wrongdoing or some nonsense like that, walked away with the money and then used the money to buy a Senate seat. He's okay. He's allowed to skate. So that, like, that is, we do need to change the way that we investigate fraud. And it feels like if AI is going to be good for anything, like, it's got to be good for this. We are at a point where we should be able to figure out if you're actually making wheelchairs and selling them. Are you really selling wheelchairs or not? Prove it. And we should be able to figure that out. Give us some photos of the wheelchairs or something. And no stock photos. This is a solvable problem, but it would take political willpower because you're going after rich people, not just poor people who are bilking the system.
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Crystal
I think that's totally reasonable. The Minnesota Reformer article you were just reading from, again, I think the other part of this is we should be able to say, you know, and I always put it this way, we are completely correct. To be sensitive about racism in a country that had a literal chattel slavery system up until, you know, 150 years ago is like a huge important part of the country's history that would be ridiculous to just get over. That's, you know, not. Not how it works. And Jim Crow is within living memory of people today. So we're right to be sensitive about it. But it's also important that we don't let those claims get weaponized, which is exactly what actually, Casey, how am I saying that I should say it correctly? Megan in the Minnesota Reformer admits Kasa probably. And it's not even an admission because Megan is totally happy to say this is what's happening and more people need to be comfortable diagnosing the problem. It has nothing to do with skin color, but it was obviously involved with the Somali community. And Megan writes, our system of Koran provides a social safety net. I don't think that I'm pronouncing that correctly either. Provides a social safety net in the form of financial.
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Ryan Grim
Not to be confused with the book.
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Crystal
The book. Right. It's spelled similarly, but not quite to. Not to be confused with. It provides a social safety net in the form of financial assistance to those who have fallen on hard Times, unfortunately, it has also been used to financially support people who have been charged with defrauding the government. And this is again like a billion dollar, alleged billion dollar money laundering operation. They're not, the money laundering claims are not flimsy. We're talking about housing programs, autism programs, feeding our future. So kids who were supposed to, you know, hungry kids who are getting meals. I've looked at the documents. I don't think that this is a case of over prosecution. And neither does Megan, who was an investigator in the Medicaid fraud division. Right.
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Ryan Grim
He was part of the prosecution.
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Crystal
Right. Of the Minnesota Attorney General Office. And so one thing I just do want to say is that I think DFL folks, Dems, progressives, it's not good for them to say, hey, this is a sad story for hardworking Minnesotans who are generous and want to support refugees and are getting absolutely screwed over by this. By the way, Minnesotans who are, you know, of, of all stripes getting screwed over by this. And Megan notes that Somalis got screwed over by this were some of the victims of all of this. And so, I mean, it just, I don't think it's good for anybody to pretend that this isn't a problem in the Somali diaspora community because what that does is open the door for people who are racist and do have bad intentions to be like, look, they're telling you you can't say it right. And that's what's going to happen. And people still have agency. If they get suckered into that stuff, that's their fault. But if we also can't be clear about what's happening because people are dancing around, that's not good for anyone either.
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Ryan Grim
Right. And he was writing kind of to the Somali community saying, yes, like, we need to clean this up. Otherwise, otherwise, you know, the hammer is going to come down and you're going to get a Christie Noem situation where she's going to come in and say like, half your visas are now invalid. Start like rating people that. And you know, it is important from a left wing perspective that, that they're in order to get buy in for universal programs, that people trust that the programs are being run honestly because if you don't look like you're willing to root out fraud, then the right can easily come in and be like, look, this is all welfare fraud. Since they won't clean it up, let's just get rid of the welfare.
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Crystal
It's the same thing with refugee programs. It's important to get buy in for refugee programs that people feel as though there's a respect for rule of law and for the country, the state that people are being resettled in. I mean, Minnesota is a very, very generous refugee resettlement program. A lot of states in the upper Midwest are. Wisconsin definitely has that too. A lot of states in America do. And it's because a lot of Americans genuinely feel like they want to be a place of refuge for people who are fleeing. Like a lot of very generous and kind hearted normal Americans who are happy to see a little bit of their money go to these types of programs that the state is running. But you're going to lose buy in for them if people believe increasingly that certain communities are taking advantage of their kindness.
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Ryan Grim
Yeah. And another point, and there's nothing. And what people need to be able to say is that there's nothing unique or intrinsically bad about the Somali community here. That fraud often spreads through a tight knit community by word of mouth.
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Sami Hamdi
So.
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Ryan Grim
And you can imagine how this would happen. And this would be the case with say, the Irish.
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Crystal
And I was going to say Irish, Italians. Yes.
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Ryan Grim
Like, I mean, obviously the programs are different at the time, but the, the word of mouth system where somebody says to you, hey, you know, if you switch providers here, they're going to give you 1500 bucks.
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Crystal
Yeah.
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Ryan Grim
And you might not even know why they're giving you 1500 bucks.
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Crystal
Yep.
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Ryan Grim
And the reason they're giving you 1500 bucks is they want your number and that they're gonna say they gave you all of these services that they didn't actually give you and then they're gonna get $10,000. You get free treatment or no treatment at all, but you get 1500 bucks. And then you tell your friends like, hey, if you want a free 1500 bucks, go over these guys and it feels like, really, can I do that? And then a bunch of people do it and get away with it. Yeah. Like, well, I'm, I'm a sucker at this point for not getting my 1500 bucks.
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Crystal
Right.
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Ryan Grim
And so, yeah. So at that point it has to be kind of a top down situation because like just from a, a risk benefit situation, most people are gonna be like, well, okay, I'll take 1500 bucks.
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Crystal
Yeah.
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Ryan Grim
Seems legal. Ish.
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Crystal
Right?
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Ryan Grim
I don't know. Yeah, you kind of know in the back of your mind you're like, probably isn't right. But you don't know why it's not right. And they're telling you like, just sign here and the program was passed by the state, you'll get this money and.
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Crystal
Right. Okay. And I really think this is why you're starting to hear the Trump administration talking about denaturalizing people because they don't have a lot of legal pathways to like boot Somali Americans from the country. Because his decision to remove TPS so Temporary Protected Status from Somalis, it's like 700 people in Minnesota out of a 60,000 population. Roughly 60,000 population. Those are the numbers I saw in time. But 700 TPS recipients, that's not like, that's not what the Trump administration actually wants to be able to do. Which is why I think you've started to hear them flirt with the idea of denaturalization just over the last week or so. I mean, obviously that comes up from time to time. But 700 people on TPS, a lot of these people are American citizens. They've been here for a long time. They've gotten citizenship toward that end.
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Ryan Grim
That seems to be where the Rufo piece comes in. So what Chris Rufo is arguing is that not only is there this significant amount of fraud which is established and has long been reported, he's saying it's then being funneled to Al Shabaab. And his sourcing for that is basically the blind claims of some like intel, intel officials or something. Right?
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Crystal
Like two officials, something like that, like.
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Ryan Grim
Who are just like saying stuff like, now if you send a certain enough remittances in general to any particular place, like a powerful organization, who's in that place is going to wind up with some of the money? Like that is. Yes, that's how it goes. But that's not like what he's trying to imply is that, that this is like some Al Shabaab run operation to fund itself. And there's just no evidence for that whatsoever. And it would be rather striking use of Al Shabaab's time if they were like, hey, let's go through the Minnesota. Like, I mean, crazier things have happened, but there's no evidence for it at this point.
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Crystal
Yeah, I mean, this is. Remittances from Somalis in Minnesota are a huge portion of the economy of Somalia itself, which is, I mean, the same is true in a lot of Central American countries.
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Ryan Grim
Remittances are like a third of the economy or something.
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Crystal
It is massive. Venezuela massive. Yeah, it's huge. And in Mexico actually really big too. And so that helps inflation here. The notion that some of that money is going to Al Shabaab is eminently believable. Whether it's a concerted operation is a different question. And that's Actually kind of similar to the question of cartel de los soles in Venezuela, which the Biden. Actually, it was the Biden DOJ's indictment that walked through their allegations of state sponsored narco trafficking in Venezuela. And a lot of what it amounted to was people in the military here and there taking bribes, being involved. The question of whether Nicolas Maduro is using this cartel to wage war on Americans with drug trafficking is different. These two things are not the same. So you can have some state involvement or you could have some Al Shabaab benefits, but does that justify particular, can that be used to justify particular actions? Different question. I think it's a different question. So I think it's probably true that some of this money ends up in the hands of Al Shabaab. I don't see any other way to go about it.
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Ryan Grim
Money is fungible.
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Crystal
Yeah.
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Ryan Grim
And it makes up, you know, it's hundreds of millions of dollars.
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Crystal
Now, if people take that to claim that this is an intentional military operation from Al Shabaab, lots more evidence is needed. Lots more evidence is needed on that front.
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Ryan Grim
Yeah. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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Crystal
Yes. So we will see, but not what was provided. Again, we're talking about 700 people maybe losing TPS. And where it goes from there, hard to say. And whether that holds up in court, also. Hard to say.
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Ryan Grim
Yeah.
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Crystal
And on that note, actually, let's transition to our guest, Sami Hamdi Ryan, someone who was in court battles with the Trump administration over immigration as well.
- [22:00]
Ryan Grim
Yep.
- [22:02]
Host/Announcer
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- [24:19]
Ryan Grim
Joining us today is British journalist Sami Hamdi, who thankfully is joining us. Freed from American detention. Sammy, thank you so much for being here.
- [24:29]
Sami Hamdi
Thank you for having me.
- [24:30]
Ryan Grim
Appreciate it. So for people who don't know, you became kind of a cause celeb when it comes to the question of free speech and criticism of Israel here in the United States when you were, when you became a kind of high profile ICE detainee for about, for about two weeks. Can you talk just briefly for people who don't know the story about what you were doing here in the US and how you wound up in American custody?
- [25:00]
Sami Hamdi
Thank you very much, Ryan. So I had a B1, B2 visa that was valid for 10 years. It was due to expire in 2028. And I had been visiting America on numerous occasions over the past three years in which talking about the Middle east politics, whether it's talking about Syria, whether it's talking about the Gulf, and more recently about what's happening in Palestine, what's happening in Gaza, this genocide that is taking place on my trips to America, I spoke at, you know, universities such as Berkeley, Stanford, CUNY and these others and welcomed in America and never really had Any issues going in and out of America. And then two weeks prior to my detention, a right wing individual called Dinesh d' Souza put up a video of a lecture that I gave in Kuala Lumpur where I expressed quite passionately that to the audience that they should keep talking on social media. It's making a difference. Americans have good hearts. When they're seeing the truth, their hearts are flipping. When they're seeing the realities of what's taking place in Palestine, when they're seeing the images of Sidra's legs blown off and her body hanging from the wall from the force of the blast, when they're seeing hindrance and hearing the audio note where she's surrounded by her corpses, of her family in the car being shot at by 320American bullets supplied to the Israelis and the Israelis bombed the ambulance sent to save her. Americans are moved by it. Their hearts are changing as a result of it. When they see the video of Nahban, may Allah have mercy on his soul, holding his granddaughter, calling her the soul of my soul. I was arguing in Kuala Lumpur that we should have faith in humanity and that when you speak through social media and provide the truth and it's dispelling the propaganda of those supporting the genocide and the like. Dinesh d' Souza took this clip in which I was arguing that there are hearts in corners we didn't think possible that could flip, like Candace owens, Tucker Carlson, etc. He took this clip and he tweeted, muslim Brotherhood operatives celebrates the role of Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson in spreading Islam in America. And Grok would respond and say this is absolute nonsense. Nothing in the video says anything like that.
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Ryan Grim
Grok to the rescue finally.
- [27:00]
Sami Hamdi
Exactly. But an individual called Ted Cruz, Senator of Texas, decides to retweet it. And I land on the attention of a lady called Laura Luma who tweets on the Monday as part of this Israeli lobby, tweets on the Monday and says there is somebody from the UK who is touring the US criticizing the Israelis. I'm paraphrasing here, we need to get rid of his visa. I didn't take it seriously in the sense that this is America, there's land of law. Laura Loomer is not the arbiter of free speech in the land of the free and home of the brave, as the America calls itself. On the Wednesday she tweeted, I'm in Congress and I have good news coming in two days about a certain so called operative touring the UK at this, touring the US at this moment. And I knew she's talking about me. On the Saturday, I gave a lecture in Sacramento at a care banquet, the Council of American Islamic Relations, in which I argued that America needs to be saved from the Israel first lobby. I argued in that speech that it is unfathomable that an American can freeze on Magnificent Mile in Chicago and cannot access any funds to save them from homelessness while Congress gives $14 billion to the Israelis first. It makes no sense. It makes no sense that an American goes bankrupt because they can't afford medical bills because $8 billion gets given by Congress to the Israelis to give them free health care and then commit genocide on top to slaughter the Palestinians. My argument was that this is not just about American Israel as one save America from a lobby that demands that America suffers for the sake of genocide taking place in Palestine. The following morning, I'm going through San Francisco airport. I was wearing a Malaysian batik, which is a noble dress from Malaysia that Americans mistook for a disco shirt. I don't know why, but in any case, I go through the check in, I go through security, I look up D38 the gate to go to Tampa to give another lecture. A gentleman approaches me and says, excuse me, are you Sami Hamdi? I said, yes. He said, sir, I'm here to inform you that your visa has been revoked. And it was revoked two days ago. I said to him, nobody told me my visa was even under review. What do you mean it's been revoked? He said, sir, here is the memo from the State Department. I read it. It doesn't state any reason. It just says section this article, this, we have the right to revoke it. I said, did they give you a reason? He said, sir, they just told me to wait for you here and to pick you up. I said, okay. I was supposed to go to London on 2nd of November, six flights a day from San Francisco. I'll just book a flight now and just go to the gate for London. That's not how this works. He said to me. Then six agents appeared out of nowhere. They escorted me out of San Francisco airport. A black car with tinted windows was waiting for me. I asked to call a lawyer. They refused. And then when I told them there's no way I'm getting in the car, I'm a British citizen. I'm not some random guy you find on the street. One of them said, relented, said, okay, you got one minute. I called a lawyer who's in civil liberties. And then the lady behind me, when I asked to call my family, one of the agents Pushes me against the car, that's enough. You're under arrest. Now cuffs me. And they take me on a six hour ordeal in the back of a van to the middle of nowhere someplace, McFarland. And they put him in a facility. And I stayed there 18 days. And thanks to two federal judges who indicated that there were serious breaches of freedom of speech and therefore my case should be expedited. The DHS lawyer, in private, I know what they were saying publicly, but certainly in private they sort of said, listen, can we just clear this up, go home and let the storm pass. And we'll clear the record in that regard. But it was quite the experience in that regard. But the final thing I'll say here is before I hand back over is I know a lot of people focused on what happened to me, but I think it should be placed in the broader context, Ryan, in the sense that I think that the extreme Israeli lobby. Bear in mind, I was not the first person they targeted. They actually went after American citizens first to curtail the freedom of speech in terms of what they can say about Israel. You'll remember, Ryan, they went after American students who were with the American Muslims for Palestine. They went after them in Michigan and the judge ruled that the case should be dismissed. Then they went after American citizens, telling.
- [30:52]
Ryan Grim
We had one of those American citizens on this program actually. That's right, exactly.
- [30:57]
Sami Hamdi
And they went to Nevada. The judge said, this is absolute nonsense. We have freedom of speech in this country. Then the extreme Israeli lobby said, okay, we're struggling to go after American citizens. Let's go after naturalized citizens. So they targeted Mahdi Hassan and some of these others and they failed. Then they said, okay, let's go after green card holders. We need to restrict the rights of ordinary Americans to prevent them from accessing truth. They went after Mahmoud Khalil. They found that it's much more difficult. The judges ruled he shouldn't be deported. His case is still in limbo, but he hasn't been deported yet. Then they said, let's go after student visas. They went after Romesa Ostor, Mohsen Mahdou and other students let scare students like from preventing them from speaking out. And they failed. The judges ruled they should be released. Then they thought, this is really bad. The Constitution is against us. We're unable to restrict American freedoms. We're unable to push our way and prevent this truth from penetrating the filters that we put on the flow of information in America. Then they thought, there's a random UK guy from London touring the United States let's go off the B1, B2 visa, and we'll take that as a victory instead. And thankfully, they failed in the end. I was able to go home free, 18 days in ice, which was a bit rough, to be honest. But thankfully, I'm home and I consider it a win.
- [32:07]
Crystal
Well, let's take a look at the video Laura Loomer posted. And I think this was 2023, but also Homeland Security posted this video. We'll play it in full here so that people can see what's in question.
- [32:19]
Sami Hamdi
Netanyahu did not envisage that for the first time since 1948, the Palestinians would actually retake land back from the Israelis. Netanyahu did not envisage that for the first time since 1948, the Palestinians would be able to hold those territories for more than 72 hours. We are pitying a people who brought a huge victory since 1948. Don't pity them. They don't want your pity. Celebrate the victory. Allah has shown the world that no normalization can erase the Palestinian cause. When everybody thought it was finished.
- [32:55]
Crystal
It's roaring.
- [32:57]
Sami Hamdi
How many of you feel it in your hearts when you got the news that it happened? How many of you felt the euphoria? Allahu Akbar. How many of you felt it? Why did you feel it? Because in despair, vanished. You said this Ummah is alive.
- [33:11]
Crystal
Okay, so, Samiya, obviously, speech questions. I just want to put aside for a second a question that a lot of people might have is what was the huge victory that was people should be celebrating and then feeling EUPHORIA about on October 7th or after October 7th?
- [33:27]
Sami Hamdi
Sure. I think anybody who watches the full lecture will see that the buildup to it makes it abundantly clear the sense that normalization was taking place over the heads of the Palestinians. People were warning that you have to engage the Palestinians in any peace talks. And now it's abundantly clear after everything that has happened that the Palestinians are relevant and that they must be included in peace talks. Celebrate the victory. That people are talking about the Palestinians again and that people are no longer steamrolling them in any talks and discussions about their particular future. Which is why this video was inadmissible in court, because it's been stitched out of the wider context. And even the Department of Homeland Security found that it could not be submitted. And the irony is that one week later, BBC would stitch a video of one of Donald Trump's speeches, and a BBC director would end up resigning as well. I think anybody who watches the full lecture makes it seems abundantly clear what I was talking about. And I don't think something from memory that is Islamophobic and targets all Muslim representatives and anybody who talks as a Muslim. I don't think that any court would take anything they say seriously, which is why not even many of the mainstream media managed to pick it up anyway. And I do want to emphasize this particular point, that nothing of what was being said publicly ever made it into a charge sheet or was even mentioned privately. In fact, on the Wednesday so 11 days after I was in, the lawyer for the Department of Homeland Security went to the federal court and said, you have no jurisdiction to assess the right of freedom of speech for Sami Hamdi because he's a foreign alien. The judge ruled that not only do they have jurisdiction, but in the words of the judge, we believe there are serious signs that his freedom of speech has been infringed. The following day, the lawyer, the Department of Homeland Security appointed a specific lawyer for my case to call, email and text my lawyers and say to them, listen, can we just make this go away? We'll just clear the record, we will pull a few strings, we'll get you home, you know, and we can just forget that all of this took place. And this is the point that I'm emphasizing here in that this had nothing to do with anything that I said. Everything that I've said. There's nothing wrong even in that clip itself. It was not admissible in court. The problem was how do you silence Americans from talking about what Israel is doing in Palestine? How do you create a climate of fear where even somebody who comes from the us, uk, a journalist, is frightened to talk about Palestine? How do we make Americans who stop spreading on TikTok what's actually happening in Palestine? Something that Hillary Clinton yesterday complained about when she's talking at the Zionist Forum, Something that Antony Blinken and Mitt Romney complained about when they said we need to ban TikTok and then the 50 billion purchase of TikTok for what? And this is the point, actually, Sami.
- [36:01]
Ryan Grim
Let me pause you on that real quick because we have that clip and I think it's really telling. Let's roll F1.
- [36:06]
Kristi Noem
For people that our students, smart, well educated young people from our own country from around the world. Where were they getting their information? They were getting their information from social media, particularly TikTok. That is where they were learning about what happened on October 7, what happened in the days, weeks and months to follow. That's a serious problem. It's a serious problem for democracy, whether it's Israel or the United States and it's a serious problem for our young people. So you and it was frankly shocking to me how little the students we were encountering, not only in this class we teach, which is a very large class, international relations, about crisis decision making, but students more generally. And that's why I mentioned the social media piece of it. Because when you would try to talk to them to engage in some kind of reasonable discussion, it was very difficult because they did not know history, they had very little context. And what they were being told on social media was not just one sided, it was pure propaganda. And so when you think about how to tell Israel's story and it's important, it's not just looking internally, it's looking externally and particularly looking at young people because you know, it's not just the usual suspects. It is a lot of young Jewish Americans who don't know the history and don't understand. Eric I was talking to Condi Rice and you know, she said in an interview that I did after the 20 point plan came out, she and I were on CBS and she said, you know, when people were chanting from the river to the sea, she would ask the students what river, what sea? They didn't know. I had the same experience. A lot of the challenge is with younger people. More than 50% of young people in America get their news from social media. So just pause on that for a second. They are seeing short form videos, some of them totally made up, some of them not, not at all representing what they claim to be showing. And that's where they get their information.
- [38:37]
Ryan Grim
And so that's at an event put on by Israel's largest newspaper, Israel Hayom, which is funded by Miriam Adelson. So just to underscore your point about the attempt to control the media, but go ahead.
- [38:49]
Sami Hamdi
But Ryan, I want to ask the viewer to listen to what she's saying. She's not just saying they will listen to TikTok, she's saying they weren't listening to us. We are the gatekeepers of information. How dare Americans go somewhere else? How dare Americans exercise their freedoms to listen to the likes of Ryan or Crystal or Sarah or the Palestinians or Mohtaz Aziza? How dare Americans actually believe that the Constitution entitles them to go to listen to information from sources other than that which we feed them? How dare they go to Breaking Points instead of CBS where we've appointed Barry Wise in order to filter the information that goes to Americans. How dare they go and listen to Mahdi Hassan and Zatteo instead of going to listen to all of these other different outlets that we set up specifically to make sure that the Palestinian voice is never heard. And what Hillary Clinton is saying, as others have said, as one of Obama's former speechwriters has been saying consistently, is, is that we need to tell the Americans how to interpret history. The lesson from the Holocaust is not that we should support the oppressed, it's that. And then she goes on, 1, 2, 3, 4. The point that I'm saying here is this is not something about Sami Hamdi. It's not about the video that you played. It's not about anything to do with me whatsoever. I got caught in the crosswind. This is about should Americans be allowed to see the truth of what's happening in the world, or should they only have the right to listen to Hillary Clinton and listen to that which Israel deems to be legitimate information that should go through? And bear in mind, when they talk about TikTok, they're also talking about breaking points. They're also talking about Zetao. They're also talking about the new media that is emerging, that is no longer beholden to these filters that used to be put on the American people. And I'll finish on this point, Ryan. I went to every state in the U.S. except New Hampshire. And I would go to different places, whether it's Fort Worth, in Dallas and these other places. I cannot stress that even the American who was pro Israel and might be hostile to the information coming out of Gaza in terms of denying the genocide, denying the slaughter, denying the pictures whenever they saw those graphic images. You saw Obama's former speechwriter saying, it's like I'm talking through a carnage of dead children when I'm speaking to them. The reality is that she mentions it. Hillary Clinton, you find even ordinary Jews and these others, American citizens waking up to what's happening. And the tragedy of what's unfolding in America is this. It's that you're no longer talking about America first. And I don't here mean maga. I mean about the interests of the American citizens. The whole politics at this moment seems to be geared towards how do you control the flow of information to the ordinary American people for the sake of a foreign government. And I was not detained because I criticized the Americans, albeit I've said in the past they shouldn't be supporting the genocide that's taking place. Laura Looma came after me not because I criticized Washington, but because I criticized Israel. Ted Cruz came after me not because I criticized America, but Because I criticized Israel. This is not the America that I think American citizens want to live in or believe in. And that's what Hillary Clinton is talking about. How do we silence these voices before the Americans wake up? Because if the Americans wake up, we get a Mamdani phenomenon in New York. If the Americans wake up, we get a situation in New York where when Democrat and Republican establishment ally behind Cuomo against Mamdani, the people support Mamdani. Mamdani wins. The fight in America has nothing to do with Sami or the like. It has to do with Israel first versus America first. And again, I don't mean MAGA America first. I mean the interest of American citizens at this moment. It looks like it's not clear who's going to win in that regard. I got caught in the crosswind, but thankfully I came out okay. But I do hope that anybody listening to this can see the reality of what Hillary Clinton is saying. She is saying to you, O American, that you have no right to exercise freedom in where you get your information from. Listen to us and we'll tell you. It's very Orwellian, very 1984. Vary the sense of, you know, the Newspeak and all these others. And that's where I think the greatest threat to America is not the Muslims. There's not anybody that's being targeted by this sudden upsurge in media that Tucker Carlson, although I find it very weird that we're quoting him left, right, center these days. But it is what it is. Given the changes that are taking place, it does feel like an the greatest enemy to America today is the one attacking American freedoms. And that attack seems to be coming from Tel Aviv.
- [43:04]
Ryan Grim
I did want to press on one thing you said because I think it really underscores how important your case actually is because it reveals how thoroughly the American people are being lied to. So I want to press on this. You said so. You saw the clip that Laura Loomer circulated along with that clip. She and other people said, this is a terrorist supporter, this is a Muslim Brotherhood supporter. This is somebody like training people in digital terrorism or something like that. There were all these words that they used to make speech sound very scary. But what you're saying is that when it came behind bars, the our government who was sharing these Laura Loomer ideas and accusations, our government who's telling the American people that they have detained a very scary person who is doing terrible things when it comes to criticism of Israel, that they didn't even attempt to make those allegations behind bars. And behind the scenes, Is that right?
- [44:12]
Sami Hamdi
Not only that, Ryan, not only did they make those allegations behind the scenes, not only did they not even allude to it or suggest it or even present it in any way whatsoever. The sense that my lawyers got, or indeed that we got, when the DHS lawyer came to talk to my lawyers, the sense was that somebody had walked into the State Department or the DHS and sort of said, guys, what idiot listen to Laura Looma? Like, what on earth happened here? Why are media coming after us with all of this attention? Who is this guy and who even revoked his visa? And why did you guys listen to Laura Luma in doing so? And the lawyer was appointed to clean up the mess very quickly. The sense that we got was the government was almost saying, please allow us to save face, we'll let you go home, return, let the storm pass, apply for a visa again, etc. Whatnot. But let's just make this very easy. We can get you home within 48 hours. Because bear in mind, some inmates, when they agree to go home, they still keep them there three months and they still keep their two months. I was expedited for two within 48 hours because of the urgency with which the Department of Homeland Security felt they needed to close this particular case. And this is the point that I'm making. Whatever they're telling you online or whatever, the battle is taking place on social media is not the reality of what's unfolding before you. The reality is that there is a PR battle, but privately the government is very much aware that there is this schism that's taking place. And it's true, even within the State Department, whatever Marco Rubio says, whatever Trishan, I'm not sure how to pronounce her surname, is exactly. Whatever she's saying, there are people in the State Department and there are people in the federal courts. There are people within the government who are not happy with the way Israel first is taking over US Policy. There is resistance in these particular areas, even around Donald Trump. And this is not a defense of Donald Trump at all. Like there's many stuff that, to be honest, we can say all day and criticize his policies, but even around him, there is this battle between Israel first and America first, which is why you're seeing this clash that's manifested online between Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, Dave Smith and these others and the Ted Cruz's and the Dinesh d' Souzas and Laura Looma. It shows that the perception is not of a unified government that's agreed on these things. There is a battle for America that is taking place. I'm not saying one side represents America. I'm saying there is a battle for the heart of America and the preservation of the rights enshrined by the Constitutions. The attack is coming from Tel Aviv. I pray that the Americans wake up quick enough before they wake up one day and find that Tel Aviv has not only constrained their freedoms, but even managed to amend their own Constitution.
- [46:37]
Ryan Grim
Well, Samy, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
- [46:40]
Sami Hamdi
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you guys.
- [46:44]
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- [49:01]
Ryan Grim
Speaking of the United Kingdom, we have a wild news story at Dropsite News today that is an adapted excerpt of a new book called the Fraud by Paul Holden. And it uses expanded reporting and documents that are not, that are also not included in the book. Because the book is basically an investigation into the political operation of Sir Keir Starmer, current UK Prime Minister. The piece that he's writing for us today looks at a secretly funded operation that Starmer and his current chief of staff, Morgan McSweeney, were running. That has some implications for work that Emily has done in the past. So what they did is when Jeremy Corbyn was rising and was the head of the Labour Party, they came together and said, how are we going to undercut the support for Corbynism and elevate Starmer? And so they identified a lot of progressive media that had grown up around the kind of Corbinist rise and said, we need to undercut these folks. And so they created two, two organizations. And this is what he's able to report with these documents. And this is what hasn't been known before. They created an organization called Stop, Stop Funding. Stop Funding Fake News.
- [50:34]
Crystal
Oh, right, right, right.
- [50:35]
Ryan Grim
FN and another one called the center for Countering Digital Hate. And so they presented themselves as these. They're just grassroots Britons who are concerned about fake news and misinformation and disinformation out there. Not that they were funded by secret money from pro Israel elements that were funneling it into the Keir Starmer political machine. That's what he can report. So this whole thing, this whole fake news scheme that they were running was not grassroots, just concerned Britons. It was the Keir Starmer machine aimed at destroying Jeremy Corbyn. So that went after a bunch of left wing publications. They also went after, for balance and for fun, a bunch of populist right wing news outlets as well, including Breitbart and the Federalist. And they went after them quite hard. Turns out Emily is quite familiar with the CCDH center for Countering Digital Hate. So tell us what your experience was with this. What we now know is a Keir Starmer machine operation, but at the time was said to be just people concerned about fake news.
- [52:00]
Crystal
Yeah, well, this is, I think this actually is a really important story because it wasn't just like MAGA news organizations. Zero Hedge was also targeted at the same time as a lot of other conservatives. Now we know Breitbart, but back in 2020, Ben Collins, who I think was like the disinformation or misinformation reporter at NBC News. So this is a journalist, basically. I'm going to read this little section from a story he published at NBC News at the time tattletaled to Google about a CCDH report on the Federalist comment section. So this is a quote from his NBC News story. Google blocked the Federalist from its advertising platform after the NBC News verification unit brought the project to its attention. Incredible. First of all, that you have a journalist tattletailing on another news outlets because they don't like this news outlet on another news outlet's comment section. To who? To Google, which owns YouTube. So if you're familiar with the YouTube comments section, that's a hilarious move on Ben Collins point on Ben Collins part. It was always so maddening that a journalist would take the CCDH report and, and then tattletale to a big tech company. I mean, just infuriating. And at the time, I mean I remember the entire like mainstream media cheerleading this report from Ben Collins. Yeah, get him, get him. Well, if you tattletail to Google and they shut down your advertising platform, you are out of business in 2020. There has since been sort of parallel efforts to back up what was the.
- [53:37]
Ryan Grim
Effect that it had on the federalists.
- [53:39]
Crystal
So Jim Jordan came in and a couple of Republican congressmen came in and pushed back on it and it went away. It would have totally shut down the website.
- [53:47]
Ryan Grim
It destroyed the canary, which is not. The canary, is now making a comeback. But the canary is a left wing outlet in the uk. It took the canary from a influential News outlet of 25 to 30 journalists to like one person.
- [54:01]
Crystal
Right.
- [54:02]
Ryan Grim
And they took credit for like just destroying it that way. But. Sorry, go ahead.
- [54:05]
Crystal
Well, no, and I mean that's why you've talked about this recently. The speech protections in the United States make, especially if you're a journalist, can make you very patriotic when you look at what happens in the uk because Google, it was brought to Google's attention that they had a clear legal problem on their hands and also that this type of activity was going to animate Republicans on the antitrust front, which it absolutely did. Now, I would argue Google has played Trump a little bit like a fiddle over the last six months, plus, or I guess what, almost a year now since he won the election. And Big Tech has been getting all kinds of goodies from Donald Trump. But at the time, Google was freaked out because all of a sudden you had these Republicans talking about repealing Section 230 and antitrust law and all of that. And so they backed down pretty quickly. But it was still, I mean, I think, really telling that a journalist was laundering a report from what we now know to be a foreign government's operation.
- [55:09]
Ryan Grim
Or hoping to be a foreign government, foreign political party.
- [55:12]
Crystal
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [55:13]
Ryan Grim
So how does it feel to know that it was a Keir Starmer Machine operation that was masquerading as this kind of good media watchdog?
- [55:22]
Crystal
It's not surprising at all because we saw it from Taibi, did a lot of reporting back in the day with the Global Engagement center. And Gabe Kaminsky did a lot of this too, that was propped up by the American State Department that was putting media companies on blacklists, including the Federalists, including, I think unherd. Warren McCollum has got on one at one point. Not a conservative media outlet at all. Places like Zero Hedge, like heterodox things that question heterodox outlets that question the establishment. They were all being targeted by actually also groups that were propped up by the US State Department, where they were getting most of their funding from state and from other US governmental or non governmental organizations that are mostly given where their budget mostly comes from the government.
- [56:07]
Ryan Grim
It was clearly like ideologically aligned with say like the Clinton wing and it flowed out of that whole Russia gate and all that. But that's a little different than it being a straight up black ops operation run out of the Starmer machine. Like, it's one thing to be like, these are our allies and our friends and we hope that, like, we can weaponize them a little bit to our advantage. And it's different to be like, oh, this is Keir Starmer's chief of staff.
- [56:37]
Crystal
It's crazy.
- [56:38]
Ryan Grim
Who is setting it up and operating this thing. Or at least, or at least is very heavily involved.
- [56:44]
Crystal
And I think that's a good point because it's especially egregious then that you have a foreign government attempting to influence the boundaries of free speech in the United States.
- [56:54]
Ryan Grim
I'm like offended on the Federalist's behalf.
- [56:56]
Crystal
We should all be. I mean, we should just all be offended as Americans on Breitbart's behalf too. That an ally like the UK would be interfering in what is, is our far superior approach to free speech and the press in the United States. They have to clean up their own damn house. And yeah, we make a lot of mistakes. And the Trump administration has had some crackdowns that journalists should be uncomfortable with and are uncomfortable with. But our system is better than their system. So how dare they stick their fingers in metal into our free press. Because guess what? It's going to come out. We're going to figure it out.
- [57:33]
Ryan Grim
And drop site exists, Dropsite exists. The Federalists in Breitbart, they might be SOBs, but they're our SOBs. How dare you.
- [57:41]
Crystal
That's right.
- [57:42]
Ryan Grim
We will, we will take them on. And also, why do you. Don't, don't try to do this for us.
- [57:47]
Crystal
What's your problem with Zero Hedge? Right. Your problem with Zero Hedge is that.
- [57:51]
Ryan Grim
They question it was Brexit and Nigel Farage and like.
- [57:54]
Crystal
Right?
- [57:54]
Ryan Grim
Yeah.
- [57:54]
Crystal
And the problem with these organizations is that they question it's happening with TikTok. We covered this earlier in the show with our guest. It's going to come for the left just because the kind of Clinton, like you said, Clinton wing controlled a lot of Our institutions post 2017 and used them to resist Trump and push back against Donald Trump. So it was coming for the Federalist and Breitbart and ZeroHedge, whatever else. That's coming for the left too. It's coming and it's going to.
- [58:23]
Ryan Grim
Came for him.
- [58:23]
Crystal
Yeah, right, exactly. But that was always so my topic and gross and especially that like lefty journalist would participate in it was really, really disgusting. Hope we learned a lesson though. I doubt.
- [58:36]
Ryan Grim
Okay, I get comment from him now. You should now that he knows that I didn't realize that part of it.
- [58:43]
Crystal
Yeah, I'll send you some stuff.
- [58:45]
Ryan Grim
Excellent.
- [58:45]
Crystal
Cool. Good.
- [58:46]
Ryan Grim
Well, there should be some good follow ups because, you know, hopefully he owns.
- [58:50]
Crystal
The Onion now either, so.
- [58:52]
Ryan Grim
What a joke.
- [58:52]
Crystal
I don't know.
- [58:54]
Ryan Grim
But. So hopefully Breitbart and the Federalists will actually follow this up and see where it goes from here.
- [59:00]
Crystal
Ryan, so glad job site exists and is publishing this.
- [59:03]
Ryan Grim
There you go.
- [59:04]
Crystal
All right.
- [59:04]
Ryan Grim
Well, interesting show today.
- [59:06]
Crystal
So interesting.
- [59:07]
Ryan Grim
No doubt about it. We'll be back on Friday.
- [59:10]
Crystal
That's right, we'll be back. We have two shows left in studio before Christmas too. So we'll be here next week, week after with the gorgeous Christmas lights and Christmas decorations.
- [59:20]
Ryan Grim
And Again, catch us December 10th at. Where is it?
- [59:23]
Crystal
It's on Capitol Hill. What's the place called Eastern Market Barracks Row. The Majestic. The Majestic Majestic Theater. You can check out the description for the link, but yeah, Ryan and I are debating that Big Tech does more harm than good. All right, we feel great about our we are morally confident in our position. We're doing this with the lovely folks over at Reason.
- [59:46]
Ryan Grim
If we lose, it was rigged.
- [59:47]
Crystal
If we lose, it was rigged. So make sure to stay tuned. If you're interested, come and see us in D.C. and we will see you on Friday with more breaking points.
- [59:58]
Ryan Grim
See you then. Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money getting 5% cash back when I pay in 4. No fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets. Now the bubbles can cling to my.
- [60:30]
Sami Hamdi
Sculpted but pruny body.
- [60:31]
Ryan Grim
Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal. Save the offer in the app ends 1231 see paypal.com promoter points can be redeemed for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc. And MLS 910457 cleaning out.
- [60:43]
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- [61:12]
Kristi Noem
O.
- [61:14]
Ryan Grim
Jenyce Torres here and I'm Austin Hankwitz. We host the podcast Mind the Small Business Success Stories, produced by Ruby Stewart Studio in partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.
- [61:23]
Host/Announcer
We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.
- [61:27]
Ryan Grim
The big thing about working at tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie.
- [61:31]
Crystal
That's how fast the industry is changing.
- [61:33]
Ryan Grim
So what I'm really excited about is to be part of that change. So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [61:42]
Crystal
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [61:45]
Host/Announcer
Guaranteed Human.