1/23/25: 'Woke' Bishop Sermon To Trump Debate, Neocon War On America First, Trump Tells Putin End The War Or Face Sanctions

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar: Detailed Episode Summary

Episode Title: 'Woke' Bishop Sermon To Trump Debate, Neocon War On America First, Trump Tells Putin End The War Or Face Sanctions
Release Date: January 23, 2025
Hosts: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Podcast Series: Breaking Points
Publisher: iHeartPodcasts

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar, hosts Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti delve into three significant topics shaping the political landscape in early 2025:

• The controversial 'Woke' Bishop Sermon delivered at the National Cathedral.
• The ongoing neoconservative push against the America First agenda.
• President Trump's latest foreign policy stance directing President Putin to end the war or face sanctions.

The hosts aim to dissect these issues, providing insightful analysis and contrasting perspectives from both the left and the right.

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2. The Controversial 'Woke' Bishop Sermon

Overview of the Sermon

The episode opens with a discussion about a contentious sermon delivered by a bishop at the National Cathedral, an event attended by President Trump and his family post-inauguration. The bishop's message, urging compassion and mercy towards various marginalized groups, sparked significant backlash, particularly from conservative circles.

Key Points & Analysis:

• Call for Mercy: The bishop implored President Trump to "have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared now," referencing gay, lesbian, transgender children, immigrants, and workers across various sectors (02:50).

• Reaction from the Right: The sermon was met with fierce criticism from conservative commentators who labeled the bishop a "radical left hardline Trump hater." Critics argued that her message ignored the negative impacts of illegal immigration and equated compassion with policy leniency (04:21).

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal Ball (04:50): "This is what I mean, Crystal, we're atheists, okay? This is what an atheist lives version of Christianity looks like."

• Saagar Enjeti (05:09): "Any political Christianity or any of that, I'm totally out on."

Discussion on Religion's Role in Politics

The hosts debate the intersection of religion and politics, emphasizing the challenges of maintaining a separation between church and state. Saagar criticizes the appropriation of religious teachings to advance political agendas, labeling it a "bastardization of their religion."

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3. Christian Nationalism and Its Influence

Hypocrisies and Political Implications

Krystal and Saagar explore the rise of Christian nationalism within the Republican Party, highlighting figures like Pete Hegstad and Josh Hawley who openly intertwine their faith with political objectives. They criticize the use of religious rhetoric to justify policies that may not align with traditional Christian teachings.

Key Points & Analysis:

• Weaponization of Compassion: Krystal points out that calls for compassion towards immigrants and marginalized groups are met with hostility, revealing a dehumanizing ideology within certain political factions (08:27).

• Separation of Church and State: Saagar underscores the importance of keeping religious beliefs separate from governmental policies, arguing that mixing the two leads to biased and exclusionary policy-making (05:25).

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal Ball (11:20): "Pete Hegstad is a Christian nationalist who wants, like, to use the Pentagon to wage a holy war."

• Saagar Enjeti (23:02): "What she's trying to say is don't deport them. Right?"

Separation of Church and State

The hosts advocate for a clear distinction between religious institutions and government, cautioning against the use of religious platforms to influence policy. They argue that such practices undermine the democratic process and marginalize those who do not share the same beliefs.

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4. Foreign Policy Discussions

Steve Witkoff and Middle East Negotiations

Transitioning to foreign policy, Saagar introduces Steve Witkoff, President Trump's special envoy to the Middle East, highlighting the internal conflicts within the Pentagon regarding Iran and regime change.

Key Points & Analysis:

• Negotiating Ceasefires: Steve Witkoff's efforts to negotiate ceasefires and engage in dialogue with Hamas have provoked backlash from neoconservative factions, who oppose any form of negotiation with adversaries (39:38).

• Neoconservative Pushback: Krystal references reactions from figures like Eitan Fishberger and publications like Jewish Insider, which label Witkoff's diplomatic approach as controversial and question his integrity (41:31).

Notable Quotes:

• Saagar Enjeti (44:21): "Here's what Steve had to say. Wanted to ask you about Hamas. Apparently, they told the New York Times, we are prepared for a dialogue with America and achieving understandings on everything."

• Krystal Ball (47:07): "His real crime is negotiating a ceasefire."

Neocon Influence and America's Foreign Policy

The discussion delves into the influence of neoconservatives within the Republican Party, criticizing their hawkish stance on Iran and preference for regime change over diplomatic solutions. The hosts argue that this faction undermines the America First agenda by pushing for unnecessary military interventions.

President Trump's Position on Putin and Russian Sanctions

Saagar and Krystal examine President Trump's recent statements urging Russian President Putin to end the war or face sanctions. They analyze the effectiveness and possible implications of such a stance, questioning Trump's leverage over Russia.

Key Points & Analysis:

• Leverage Limitations: Saagar argues that the U.S. lacks significant economic leverage over Russia, as Russia's economy is already heavily sanctioned and not deeply intertwined with the global market (58:02).

• Human Cost of War: The hosts express concern over the staggering number of casualties in the Russia-Ukraine conflict, criticizing the prolonged duration of the war and questioning strategic decisions (60:32).

Notable Quotes:

• President Trump (57:11): "I'm going to do Russia, whose economy is failing, and President Putin a very big favor. Settle now and stop this ridiculous war."

• Krystal Ball (57:33): "We have numbers that almost a million. Russian soldiers have been killed. About 700,000 Ukrainian soldiers are killed."

Iran and Regime Change Debates

Saagar highlights the internal conflicts over Iran, emphasizing the push for regime change versus more diplomatic approaches. He criticizes figures like Mike Demeanor and Elbridge Colby, who oppose aggressive military actions, labeling them as targets of neocon opposition.

Key Points & Analysis:

• Whisper Campaigns: The hosts suggest that neoconservatives are orchestrating campaigns to discredit officials advocating for diplomatic solutions with Iran (49:29).

• America First vs. Globalism: Krystal underscores the tension between America First policies and globalist agendas, advocating for policies that prioritize U.S. interests without entangling alliances (30:15).

Notable Quotes:

• Saagar Enjeti (52:28): "It's time to make a deal. No more lives should be lost."

• Krystal Ball (63:46): "No part of me wants this, but I think he might be right, that if you're going to have some sort of a maintain the peace kind of a ground force, I doubt that the Europeans could or would do it on their own."

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5. Conclusion

In this episode, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti provide a critical examination of the intertwining of religion and politics in America, highlighting the controversies surrounding Christian nationalism and its impact on policy-making. They further dissect the neoconservative influence on U.S. foreign policy, particularly concerning the Middle East and Russia-Ukraine conflict. The hosts advocate for an America First approach that maintains a clear separation between religious beliefs and governmental decisions, emphasizing the need for diplomatic solutions over militaristic interventions.

Overall Insights:

• Separation of Religion and State: Maintaining this separation is crucial to prevent biased policy-making and ensure inclusivity.

• Critique of Neoconservatism: The influence of neoconservatives is seen as detrimental to genuine America First policies, pushing for unnecessary military engagements.

• Advocacy for Diplomacy: Emphasizing the importance of diplomatic efforts in resolving conflicts, rather than relying solely on military might.

Final Thoughts:

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar continues to challenge prevailing political narratives, offering listeners a platform for honest and balanced discussions on pressing issues. This episode underscores the necessity of scrutinizing the motivations behind political rhetoric and the importance of advocating for policies that prioritize national interests without compromising ethical standards.

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Notable Timestamps:

• 02:06: Introduction to the controversial bishop's sermon.
• 04:50: Saagar's critique on political Christianity.
• 11:20: Discussion on Pete Hegstad as a Christian nationalist.
• 39:38: Steve Witkoff's interview and reactions.
• 57:11: President Trump's stance on ending the Russia-Ukraine war.
• 63:46: Final thoughts on the conflict's human cost.

Transcript

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

All right, let's go ahead and get to this sermon, which became quite controversial. A bishop who was presiding over services at the National Cathedral that Trump and Vance and the whole family attended after the inauguration had a special message for the President that ruffled quite a lot of feathers. Let's take a listen to what she had to say. Let me make one final plea. Mr. President, millions have put their trust.

[Sagar Enjeti]

In you, and as you told the.

[Krystal Ball]

Nation yesterday, you have felt the providential hand of a loving God.

[Sagar Enjeti]

In the name of our God, I ask you to have mercy upon the.

[Krystal Ball]

People in our country who are scared now. There are gay, lesbian and transgender children in Democratic, Republican and independent families, some.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Who fear for their lives. And the people, the people who pick our crops and clean our office buildings.

[Krystal Ball]

Who labor in poultry farms and meat.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Packing plants, who wash the dishes after we eat in restaurants and work the night shifts in hospitals. They may not be citizens or have the proper documentation, but the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. They pay taxes and are good neighbors.

[Krystal Ball]

They are faithful members of our churches.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And mosques, synagogues, wadara temples.

[Krystal Ball]

Our God teaches us that we are.

[Sagar Enjeti]

To be merciful to the stranger, for we were all once strangers in this land.

[Krystal Ball]

So this triggered a total meltdown and angry freak out on the right which went up to and included the President himself. We can put Trump's response here up on the screen. The so called bishop who spoke at the National Prayer Service on Tuesday morning was a radical left hardline Trump hater. She brought her church into the world of politics at very ungracious way.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's true. I think that's true.

[Krystal Ball]

Continue that she was nasty in tone, not compelling or smart, failed to mention the large number of illegal migrants that came into our country and killed people. Many were deposited from jails and mental institutions. That party just makes up. It's a giant crime wave that is taking place in the usa. Also not true. Apart from her inappropriate statements, the service was a very boring and uninspiring one. She's not very good at her job. She and her church owe the public and apology for a very basic message.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, no.

[Krystal Ball]

Of Christian mercy and compassion.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is what I mean, Crystal, we're atheists, okay? This is what an atheist lives version of Christianity looks like.

[Krystal Ball]

But hold on a second. What is, what part of what she said first of all offends you and second of all, what part of it, well, what offends you is dissonant with the teachings of Jesus?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, I'm not a. Look, I'm not Christian so I won't get into the differences of Episcopal versus Catholic and all of. And by the way, many of my Episcopal friends exact complaint about the Episcopal Church is exactly about this. Basically they'll ordain anybody and that's why there's all these different offshoots and huge fights within the church over gay and BLM and all this stuff. So that's part of the reason why a lot of my friends, actually people like JD became Catholic is because of the actual doctrine that it Sticks to. But this is getting over my skis. Cause I'm not Christian. I'm not gonna Christiansplain it to other people. It drives me nuts. Not only with her or with others, with who are, what is it like preachers who take the pulpit under their tax free status and then use it as a pulpit to preach politics. And so here again, like you're watching this message of this like glib coded bishop, like explaining a political position and using that under the word of God to make a point. And so that's why it annoys the crap out of me, my Christian friends, for them it's a bastardization of their religion. But beyond that, that it's really just about the bigger point of you're using your position and cloaking it in the faith of the Bible, which is not 100% clear. Okay, anybody out there, the Christians themselves can't even agree on what it says. To then use that to push what is an overtly political point. It just seems ridiculous. So, and look, I mean, no one can call me a hypocrite on this. I can't stand all this pro life preaching and all this other political activism. I think all of them should have to pay taxes. One of the biggest scams in the entire country. So any political Christianity or any of that, I'm totally out on.

[Krystal Ball]

It's incredibly hypocritical for the right to complain about politics in the church when I mean the moral majority, like explicitly argue with Falwell to vote for Ronald Reagan. Politics is a central part of the, certainly evangelical, like you go to any of these megachurches and it is super political. And the truth of the matter is though, I mean, to the extent that politics and religion both have to do with your core values, which both of them do, I don't think you can really extricate politics completely from religion. But what's interesting to me, I mean.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But that's what they say, that's their justification for all of their political activism.

[Krystal Ball]

What's interesting to me though is that, you know, I'm also not like, you know, an expert on the Bible. However, the, you know, the teachings on immigrants in particular seem to be pretty consistent and about things like compassion and remembering their humanity. I mean, just here's one verse. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt. So to me it's very telling that there is such a vociferous angry reaction to someone who didn't even say, like, don't deport them or don't do this, or he just said, you know, show mercy and have some compassion, because these are human beings.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay, but what does compassion mean?

[Krystal Ball]

To me, that seems as.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What does compassion mean? Letting you stay here forever. Right?

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, to me, that. Well, she didn't say that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, but that's the implication.

[Krystal Ball]

But to me, the fact that there is such outrage by an entire political ideological group by just asking to recognize people's basic humanity. And, you know, what she said, again, I think is entirely consistent with the teachings of the Bible and the message of Christianity and Jesus Christ, et cetera. That that would be received so angrily is, to me, just. It's very telling because.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Because you don't see the policy implication, Crystal, which is when she says compassion, she says, oh, they need to be able to stay here. She says, oh, transgender are afraid. It's like, yeah, cause we want not. We want children not to plugged full of hormones.

[Krystal Ball]

But what's so wrong with her having that view? And, no, there's nothing wrong with it, but here's the thing.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Putting it in Jesus, that's the issue.

[Krystal Ball]

You're also putting words in her mouth that she didn't.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what's happening here.

[Krystal Ball]

So if, you know, she's allowed to have her religious faith and interpretation of this, and the fact that there was such outrage over just like, hey, maybe show some mercy to these groups because they also are human beings and they're also, you know, fearful in this moment, which I can tell you is definitely 100% true. I think it displays that there's just. There's such a level of dehumanization that goes on. And I think it's possible to say, I have compassion for these people. But also, obviously, this isn't the view I agree with. But also, I think there are these other priorities. And, you know, we have to have borders and be a nation, and we have to take care of the people here. Like, you can still have empathy for human beings who are by and large trying to make a better life for themselves and trying to do the best they can for their kids and their family. You can have empathy and compassion for them, but also have a different political approach. I don't think those two things have to be dissonant. But the fact it was taken as such an attack, I don't know.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It is an attack because it is a political implication. When they say compassion, we're done being psyoped into compassion and all of this. But that means that's why they have to stay here forever. And actually, they just all deserve citizenship. And, oh, there are a lot of gay and transgender people who are scared. It's like, nobody wants you to be scared. Right. But that means that, oh, we shouldn't be worried about plugging children full of hormones and integral whatever, you know, sports leagues and allowing men to compete in women's sports. It's like, we all know what it means. That's why this is being rejected. And by the way, I was around long enough to be against church and state whenever it was coming. You know, the left was criticizing the right. I think we should do the same here. No offense. I don't really care what Jesus has to say about my country's border policy. You guys believe whatever you want at home, okay?

[Krystal Ball]

Pete Hegstad is a Christian nationalist who wants, like, to use the Pentagon to wage a holy war.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay. That's not what he said.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't remember you being upset about that or the other. I mean, there's many, by the way.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes, actually, I am upset. If there is a search. There is a large Israeli holy purposes.

[Krystal Ball]

There is a large and significant constituency in the Republican Party that self describes as Christian nationalists.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And I don't remember any upset from you or any of these people. Any of these people.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You've never heard me rail against Brian Mass and all these other Christian nationalist heroes.

[Krystal Ball]

Josh Hawley affirmatively describes himself as a Christian.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Tell me something that he said about Israel and I'll criticize here. Happily.

[Krystal Ball]

But here's the thing. Like, that is a. Has been a core part of the Republican position. This very politicized version of Christianity which many other Christians, including our own, you know, Tim Alberto, we interviewed him here about his book, who many other people think is a bastardization of their religion and the teachings of Jesus Christ that puts Trump and the Republican Party against the actual teachings of the Bible. So, you know, I don't see any upset about that on the right and the politicization of Christianity when it's used to their benefit. But this very mild.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's not mild.

[Krystal Ball]

Very mild call for mercy for groups that are fearful right now and justifiably so in this moment triggers a total freakout meltdown. I mean, they were really triggered by this. It was like very snowflake behavior. Oh, my God. How could you. This is outrageous. Blah, blah, blah. And just to give you a little bit of the reaction, I think we have Laura Ingraham here that we can. That we can go to to play. Let's see, this is B8 that we can play for you to get a sense of how the right reacted to this.

[Sagar Enjeti]

She was so arrogant, the way she. She didn't even acknowledge the President of the United States of America. She had an opportunity to minister the gospel instead of that. She is a heretic. She should never be allowed to preach the message of Jesus in her life because she's not even talking about Jesus. This is why no one's going to these. Yeah. This is why these denominations are dying, sadly. But rather than a Christian service about God and country, they were forced to listen to the rantings of a lunatic. I don't think it's a good look to be fighting with a bishop. That's just me. She asked. You know what? First of all, she asked for it. She's fighting with the President of the United States. She is judging him. She feels empowered. He's in Office less than 24 hours when the country wants unity. She's pulling up the leftist progressive talking points. It's not about her in her role as a bishop. Well, that's what she is. It's about her. I don't care what she is. It's about her and her role as a politician using the church and the pulpit of the church to engage in political discussion. Am I wrong, Greg?

[Krystal Ball]

That first dude there is the one who ran the crypto scam after speaking at Trump's inauguration. He's the Pastor Lorenzo who launched his own meme coin crypto scam in response to his position there. But you know, I mean, here's another leftist progressive talking point in the language of Judge Jeanine from Matthew for I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you came to visit me. Truly, I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. So how is that dissonant? From what cause, Crystal?

[Sagar Enjeti]

We are sitting here pending and choosing Bible verses which have been bastardized through English now over thousands of years and conveniently ignoring what is a Deuteronomy. And all this is what I mean, I'm not a Christian scholar. I'm not gonna tell Christians what to believe.

[Krystal Ball]

Here's Deuteronomy.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Figure out your own.

[Krystal Ball]

You are to love those who are foreigners.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You yourself are isn't there one in there about stoning people and Sodom and Gomorrah and all that? Why are we ignor? What about the things that you shall not put crops side by side? Specifically, you're turning me into Bill Maher from Religious Religious.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, look, I'm not. I'm not.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's what I mean. So why are we reading? Why are we picking and choosing Bible verses and saying this is what Jesus means? You don't know anything.

[Krystal Ball]

But to be honest with you, one of the most consistent There are many inconsistencies in the Bible. Maybe one of the most consistent themes is the treatment of the quote foreigner meant to be treated with compassion, humanity, et cetera. So to pretend like this is some quote unquote leftist talking point versus something that is consistent with her view of the and people can hold other views and people do hold other views, and that's fine. But it's just to me, it's very.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

Trying to look at how outraged this was. You know how much outrage this generated. Especially because the group that primarily weaponizes Christianity and uses it to justify things that in my opinion should not be justifiable is the right and has been, you know, concerted using that over many decades.

[Sagar Enjeti]

One of the biggest pushers of BLM and BLM and quote unquote racial justice has been specifically Episcopal churches and others. Walk around and look at all those signs with the biggest flashlight.

[Krystal Ball]

One of the big pushers of the anti woke and anti Covid restrictions, et cetera have also been religious groups.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes, I agree with that.

[Krystal Ball]

And the right has no smoke for them whatsoever.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Straw man argument here where it's like you're pointing out just because some people have been hypocritical that this is some empirically good. It's not good, it's always bad.

[Krystal Ball]

What I'm pointing at, we don't live.

[Sagar Enjeti]

In a Christian country, nor should we.

[Krystal Ball]

What I'm pointing out is that it is interesting to me that a very mild message of have mercy and see people's humanity is treated with such visceral horror and outrage by a group of people.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I mean, of course you would see it because it aligns with your worldview.

[Krystal Ball]

To me it is an indication of like I think a political ideology that does not see people's humanity and is outraged at the suggestion that you should see people's humanity. I think that's sick. I do. I think that that sick and that's the vibe that is coming on here. I mean, you talk about J.D. vance like he's a Catholic. He's a very religious guy. Surely he recognizes the, you know, consistency with the Bible.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Everyone's humanity, including the world.

[Krystal Ball]

So why is so outrageous? Why are you rolling your eyes?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Where's the bishop? Talking about people who have been murdered here by who are illegal immigrants. The people who suffer as a result of illegal immigration. Oh, there's no humanity there. Interesting. We're not gonna talk about the effects of hormone changes on little girls and boys. And with a sociological agenda being pushed here, there's no humanity for the victims of any of that. Those of us who have had our.

[Krystal Ball]

Country, obviously we disagree.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, that's my point.

[Krystal Ball]

That's completely fine. No, but the fact that it was so triggering.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But if we talk about those people's humanity, then nobody wants to hear it. It's only the humanity of people from Venezuela, not from America.

[Krystal Ball]

That's not.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes, it is true. Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

The thing I'm pointing out is she made this really basic point about the humanity of people who are LGBT or the people who are migrants, and it caused them to be so upset. Why? Why is it not okay to think about those people's humanity? Why is it cringe? Why is it something that should be filled with content? Why does it trigger all of this rage? People should be viewed with humanity, including, yes, the victims of any sort manner of crimes and their families, et cetera. Of course they should be seen as human beings and treated with humanity. And you know, throughout history, that actually has been a radical view that is part of what was radical about the original teachings of Christianity. And to see it like, be so enraging to have someone just say like, hey, have some compassion. I just think it's interesting, okay? I just think it's interesting.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I think we understand the point that you're trying to make, which is that right winger Christian nationalists and all those people are hypocrites, which I don't even disagree with. That's part of the thing. I want us actual separation of church and state. The point is, is all of us can read between the lines. Now in America, when certain things are said like, oh, please don't forget. And by the way, she was making an explicitly political point. These are the people who wash our dishes. These are the people who whatever.

[Krystal Ball]

Is that untrue?

[Sagar Enjeti]

What she's trying to say is don't deport them. Right? Is that we should consider that their role is so. And not all the people who just voted Democratically for a guy named Donald Trump to mass deport because they don't agree with this bishop ladies view of the world.

[Krystal Ball]

But what I don't understand. I understand you disagree with her. Okay. What I don't understand is why it's so enraging. Like, why even she didn't say, don't.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Be enraged at her. I mean, I guess some other Christians are.

[Krystal Ball]

They clearly are. I mean, they clearly are. Like, this triggered a whole mount of.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Because people don't want to see bastardization of their faith.

[Krystal Ball]

No, because that's what they don't want.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But that's.

[Krystal Ball]

Trump is not a. He does not care about this.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes, I agree. That's one of the things I appreciate.

[Krystal Ball]

Most about it, actually. I think it's because in order, like a core part of the philosophy has become like, not just the policies, but you saw it with, for example, there was that video going around of the woman who had her CBP1 app appointment.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Sure.

[Krystal Ball]

Canceled and she was bereft. Right. And this is not someone who was trying to cross the border illegally. This was someone who was trying to go through the process that was set up by the United States government. And maybe you think she administration. And maybe she thinks you think she deserves a place in this society and maybe you don't. But this is a human being, right. Who is clearly going through it and just devastated when 20 minutes before her CBP1 appointment, it's canceled. And the reaction from the right is like glee and delight in her pain.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay, that's not true, first of all, very true. I think you're trying to make Twitter comments into reality. I don't think that that's true.

[Krystal Ball]

Is Libs of TikTok an influential voice on the right?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Sure, but is she the only person on the.

[Krystal Ball]

But, yes, but, Sagar, there's a sign, and it's the same. It's the same energy. It's the same energy here of you can have compassion for migrants and also say, you know what? They don't have a claim on our society. And it's unfortunate, but, like, we have limited resources and we have a border. But, like, I have compatibility. I see this as a human being. You can have that approach. But I think there is such a strain of dehumanization that is just like, you know, glee at seeing people's appointments canceled. Just horror that anyone would ask you to have compassion for migrants who are here. And yeah, again, to me, that's like, I think that's a very troubling trend and not disturbing.

[Sagar Enjeti]

See, I'll flip it around and say there's what compassion have I ever seen except for complete ignoring of the crimes of people who are here illegally. The response is always like, oh, but the natal born population commits more crimes. Actually it's like, okay, so the people who are not supposed to be here also commitment crime. And I don't see any compassion for the people who have been killed by them or affected by them or victims of migrant crime. You can pay lip service to them. In reality. When has there ever been.

[Krystal Ball]

Hold on, hold on. Give me a single example of someone dehumanizing Lake and Riley and her family.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What do you mean by dehumanizing?

[Krystal Ball]

I mean like expressing at them. Like that would be.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, it's actually worse.

[Krystal Ball]

That would be the equivalent response would be glee that this person was murdered in a horrific way and that her family is suffering. That would be the equivalent response. No, I haven't seen that. I have not seen that from anyone.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Ignoring, pretending and obfuscating crime of illegal immigrants is the de facto same thing, which is that they deserve to be here. They're actual citizens. They have just as rights as many of us, which they don't. And the point is, is that all of this is about policy. At the end of the day, the bishop was making a political point. She wants. Okay, she's a bishop. She's.

[Krystal Ball]

Why does that make you so mad? It makes me mad that she has a view of the Bible that includes humanity for immigrants. Why does that make you so mad?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Because she's using the teachings to inform a political message. That's the problem. And again, I'm actually consistent on this. I don't believe in the political church. I think all of these people should have to pay taxes. I don't like all of this Christian nationalism nonsense which perverts our foreign policy and others. I am a through and through actual nationalist. So in a way, you're arguing with somebody who really doesn't share or like any of this crap that happens in the political coalition. What I'm saying clearly is that it is obvious that the compassion and all of that has actual policy implications. So when everyone's like, please, compassion.

[Krystal Ball]

Seeing people as human beings, yes, has political impact.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, but it means, oh, actually hormone treatments for children. You're like 12.

[Krystal Ball]

Value based.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's very compassionate.

[Krystal Ball]

Values based decisions which can stem from religious convictions. Of course that has political implications. Of course it does.

[Sagar Enjeti]

If people want to use their teachings to inform their vote, you do as you please. I will continue to do as I please. But the problem that it always comes back to again is that compassion is bastardized, politicized and used for all of this to push explicitly political agenda which are now counter both to my belief and clearly at least some portion and large belief of the entire country.

[Krystal Ball]

Compassion is contrary to your beliefs.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, not compassion. It's being used as a cloak again to encourage the transition of children and say, well, nothing wrong with that. To encourage illegal immigration or mass migration.

[Krystal Ball]

You have no.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And to just say these people are actually better than us. It's amazing.

[Krystal Ball]

You have no smoke for the right when compassion for Lake and Riley and her family is used to effectuate a political outcome. I mean literally the bill is named after her.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

Isn't that a weaponization of compassion? What's the difference between political ends?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, what's the difference between those two? One's a US citizen and one's not a US Citizen. Right. I care about.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, but Sager, you have no problem when compassion is weaponized for a political end you happen to support.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, that's.

[Krystal Ball]

But when a basic message of compassion very highly consistent with the teachings of Jesus Christ is preached, it's like hair on fire meltdown.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Because it's a global. Because it's contrary to the national ideal. It's not about compassion. It's about using Lake and Raleigh as an example for the dangers of illegal immigration. That's what it's about. It's not about quote unquote. And by the way, again, my value system is that I believe the United States should only look out for its own interests. Those include U.S. citizens. So yes, it's very annoying when this Christian globalist type of language is used to say actually the earth is flat, we're all exactly the same. And that transcends all borders. And that's why the border exists. Should not exist. That's why the border. As it is.

[Krystal Ball]

She did not say any of that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay, so when people.

[Krystal Ball]

She didn't say any of that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Crystal. When people go to the pre.

[Krystal Ball]

The right is also, oh my God, free speech and stop canceling and oh, you guys are so triggered by us, blah blah blah, she can't say what she is. Of course you got a member of Congress who said she should be deported. You had that dude on Fox News who was like, she should never be able to preach again. Of course they want to cancel her. That's the one member of the reaction says something stupid.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Am I supposed to sit here and like take everything.

[Krystal Ball]

He's a member of Biden.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The doc says, as the policy of the Democratic Party? No, and that would be stupid if I did. So let's just not like, like extrapolate this into some major cancellation campaign. They're upset about what the lady said because it strikes at the core. Again, I've explained it a million times, but I just.

[Krystal Ball]

The idea that it would be so offensive to say these are human beings and have compassion for them, I just don't. I just, I cannot understand.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I think you're desperate to think that everybody who's against immigration does not have compassion. And it's not true. The point is, is that we see.

[Krystal Ball]

Then why is this so offensive?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Because we see resources as finite. And when messages are put out to psyop the American people into thinking that those resources that are of a very finite amount to be able to distribute it to our public should then be transcended by this humanistic belief is basically one that has been the de facto migration policy now of the Democratic Party and of the bipartisan establishment for the last 25 years. We are able to distinguish clearly that messages like this with the tone and the delivery are very obviously have policy implications which we totally disagree with, hence we criticize them. It's not about the language of compassion. And by the way, again, she selectively decides which groups to have, quote, unquote, compassion for illegal immigrants. And what did she say? Gay and transgender children. We know what's going on. The reason why that that happened is because it actually wasn't an all encompassing message for all Americans or others. It's these select groups who they decide have been more victimized than everybody else and actually deserve special status and thus are actually better than us in some ways.

[Krystal Ball]

No, you're like reading a million, a million things.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Oh, you're reading a million things into it too.

[Krystal Ball]

I think what's going on is that the, I mean, the teaching, especially with regards to immigrants in the Bible, it is. Again, I'm not a Bible expert, but it is one of the more consistent teachings that there is not to, you know, not to dismiss, not to be cruel, to have treat them with humanity and justice and compassion. And so I think for people who are Christians and who hold themselves out as that being a core part of their identity, to have that like, clear cut message from the Bible rub up against their political views in a way that's uncomfortable. I think that's what's created this mass backlash reaction. But like I said, I just think. I just find it interesting the response to what I think is a very like, mild and commonly held view that people are human And I see how.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You get there, because I know it's very comfortable with your worldview. And to those people, I would say you should be an American first, and then you can decide in terms of your religion, but in terms of your voting and what's actually good for the country, your teachings and all of that, you can inform your vote, but please don't try and impose your bullshit on the rest of us.

[Krystal Ball]

How does she try to impose her bullshit?

[Sagar Enjeti]

I mean, she just told her clearly.

[Krystal Ball]

Why does that make you mad that she expressed a view she's allowed to.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I disagree with the view.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, but that's like, that's fine. That's fine to disagree with the view that people should be treating that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I just think this is ridiculous, considering how if there was some preacher who was preaching against gays and transgender and all, I'm pretty sure what smoke you would have for that person, especially if they were influential and they did it to Joe Biden. Joe Biden, by the way, our first Catholic president. I mean, completely. He believes in abortion. Right. If a Catholic, what, Cardinal Dolan or other took the podium, whatever it's called, the lectern. Is that what it is? And lectured at the president and Nancy Pelosi, didn't he refuse them. What was it, Communion? Yeah, that was a big scandal. So this is what I mean. So whenever it's done against Democratic politicians, I'm not hearing so much concern, even though that's consistent with theirs. Whatever Jesus says and who you want to run your country, do that in the Vatican or Italy or whatever, that has nothing to do with us. So I see plenty. Whenever cardinals in the Catholic Church and all of them lecture Democratic politicians who are allegedly Catholic, the Democrats get mad and people attack them, et cetera. This is just simply the same reaction. I don't think it's all that different. The difference is that you just agree with this lady and you disagree with the cardinal or the Catholic Church. So that's where you're seeing all the things, like, I could say the same, like, oh, he's just going off the teachings of Jesus. That's the teachings of the Catholic Church. You know, why should everybody be so upset about that? And they're like, oh, well, because we agree with people have the right to choose. It's like, okay, fine. So there's a difference between the Catholic teaching when they lecture at a politician and then how that politician behaves with respect to government policy of the United States. Like there's three separate realms. I'm not angry with her. In the way that I think that you're trying to portray it. What I'm angry at is this idea that this is some completely non political ideology and is often weaponized.

[Krystal Ball]

Laura, is Laura Ingraham a hypocrite?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes, of course. Because I guarantee you she's gonna have people on who are hardcore Christian to justify being pro life or abortion. I'm not leaving these people off the hook and I despise much of this, the Christian nationalist right which forces people like Brian Mast and others to declare allegiance to a foreign country over our own. These are obviously very natural tensions which people go roll the tape on me and Brian Mast or any of these folks. I think it's crazy, but that's my point is that it shouldn't have influence on our finite actual policy decisions as Americans. And I mean I don't see why it's. Why it's just, I don't see why it's difficult to understand then how we can all read between the lines. I mean I could flip her if I just only start talking about compassion for the victims of crimes of illegal immigrants. What am I trying to say people? What am I trying to say?

[Krystal Ball]

Right, yeah, that's fine. But you're fine with that? That you're fine with? No, that you're fine with. But I mean, but that's. Well just we can finish with this. But she didn't actually call for any specific policy.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Cause that would be a violation 513.

[Krystal Ball]

All she said is have mercy on people who are fearful right now. And you know, these are groups that are in fact, they are in fact fearful right now. And you know, I don't think that that is outrageous. I don't think that should make people mad. I don't think that trying to see each other's humanity, yeah, that is the core of how I believe we should operate in the world. And I do think that that can lead you to different conclusions on. There are a lot of balances that you have to strike in the political realm. But to me being guided by seeing everybody first and foremost as a human being, I don't think that that's outrageous. I don't think that should make you angry. I don't think that that is the ravings of a lunatic. I don't think you should be deported for having those views, et cetera. But that's just me.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Sounds like you found Jesus. Crystal. You should attend her service. Service is here in Washington.

[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Remember, no matter who you are, there's.

[Krystal Ball]

A Lisa just for you.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

America and achieving understandings on everything.

[Sagar Enjeti]

How do you see that? Well, I think it's good if it's accurate. I think we were able to demonstrate that President Trump's policies, peace through strength, they work. Everybody listens. I said, you've got to. You got to look at the tweet, look at the truth, look at what he said. The words speak for itself. He expects a hostage release. Remember, we were working. We had nothing to do with the mathematics behind the prisoner release and the hostage release. That was set way probably, I don't know, 11, 12 months ago. And our job was to speed up the process because it felt like it had bogged down. And I'm actually going to be going over to Israel. I'm going to be a part of an inspection team at the Nazarene Corridor and also at the Philadelphia corridor. We have to make sure that the implementation goes well, because if it goes well, we'll get into phase two and we're going to get a lot more live bodies out. And I think that that is what the President's directive to me and everybody else working in the American government on this. That's his directive. And that's what we're going to do. That's what we're going to do. We needed to show people that we could stop the violence and we could have conversation and dialogue. And so this is the beginning of that, and hopefully everything over there can be settled in that way. So, Krisal, that was his crime. His crime is that he's like, yeah, I'll talk to Hamas. That was it. That was enough to set them off. So let me give you an example. Let's put this up there on the screen. Here's a reaction from Eitan Fishberger. He says in just one interview, Trump's Middle east envoy manages to express a willingness to, quote, reach understandings about everything with Hamas. Admits that he and Trump's team didn't even try to get any additional hostages out. What's he talking about there?

[Krystal Ball]

I'm not really sure about that one.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And says Fonz, over the Qatari leadership again. Now, what has basically happened is this. There is now a narrative being spun here in D.C. that Steve Wycoff is an agent of the Qatari government. Now Why I find this including attacking Steve Witkoff's kids. Again, his crime is negotiating a ceasefire. His real crime is forcing Bibi to work on Shabbat and actually getting this deal done. Let's just all be honest about what's happening. So my challenge to the neocon people who I know who are gonna watch this is this. You guys want to have an honest conversation about foreign influence and people being bought by whom? Let's go. Let's go. Cuz I know where all of your funding comes from. It's all public. I know many of you individuals personally. Who do you think that they're campaigning to replace? Steve Witkoff? Jared Kushner. Oh, the guy who's a billionaire because of Saudi Arabia. And you don't have any problem with that, right? Why? Cuz he's pro Israel, or more pro Israel, apparently, than Steve Witkoff. And he'll just give BB whatever he wants. So they're full of shit whenever it comes to the criticisms of Steve Wyckoff and his ties or whatever to the Qatari government. And you know, at this point, I don't even care. All I want is to see peace in the region, which clearly Wykoff and the people I've spoken to, who have spoken to those who are involved in this process, are very impressed by him and believe that he is committed to actually trying to get phase two through. Now, a lot of this is going to be up to Donald Trump, and of course there will be massive pushback here by the Israeli government, but it actually goes a level deeper than this, which is really important. And let's put this next one up here. This is Jewish Insider. This is a publication which is run basically is a laundering of a lot of neocon thought. And they write here pro Israel Republicans alarmed over Trump's Defense Department appointee. Now, the person they're talking about here is a guy named Mike Demeanor. He's been tapped as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East. Mike Dimino is a person who had the audacity to suggest, Crystal, that regime change in Iran would be a bad idea. And actually, he articulated himself incredibly well in interviews, like on the Glenn Greenwald program or on Dave Decamp show on YouTube. Any of you can go and watch and listen to his words himself. We're not talking about an extremist. We're actually talking about somebody whose previous experience on the ground and involvement in the region convinced him that America's ability to compel regime change and launching adventures in the Middle east, which he says have little strategic interest to America. That's his actual crime. And so what we're watching is a laundering of a major whisper campaign against a guy like Mike Domino. We are watching a new attack that's being launched today. And I'll get into that in a little bit.

[Krystal Ball]

But.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But just look at, you know, Witkoff. All he does is just say, hey, you guys need to agree to this deal that you've already agreed to back in May. And that is alone. He is now the target of the Israeli media and of all of their allies here in Washington, D.C. including Nikki Haley and some very, very prominent people behind the scenes.

[Krystal Ball]

Nothing makes people here more angry than when you say, I'm gonna talk to our adversary.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right.

[Krystal Ball]

You will get uniform outrage. And it's just. It's such posturing. Like, listen, the reality is. And why Bibi didn't want to end the war, this is why Smotrich. And I mean, they're very upfront about their goals. But because when you actually have a ceasefire, even a temporary one, as of now, people have to start to grapple with the realities that you didn't destroy Hamas. Very likely Hamas is going to continue to be in government, because guess what? You didn't come up with any sort of a political solution that would lead in a different direction. And there is no. There is no number of guns and bombs that is going to solve this problem, period, and end of story. But you can live in that fantasy. We're never going to have to talk to Hamas, and they're going to be defeated, and they're just evil, point blank, end of story, and you could never even speak with them. You can live in that fantasy until you actually try to have some sort of a resolution. And so, yeah, he committed the cardinal sin of being like, I actually want to go to Gaza, and Hamas said that would talk, and I think we should do that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, let's get into that.

[Krystal Ball]

Think about even, like, you know, Scahill, who goes and interviews these guys because, hey, they're a party to this conflict, and maybe we should know what their thoughts are and what their thought process is and what their ideology is. The amount of outrage over even just a journalist going and interviewing them is preposterous. I mean, listen, with regard to how all of this pans out, we'll see. Because already, obviously, you're seeing, you know, a massive onslaught and lots of killing in the West Bank. I just saw electricity has been shut off in massive parts of the west bank of Cornea. Drop site news. There's all kinds of reportings about the quote unquote, goody bag that Trump and Wyckoff are giving to Israel. So what are the costs of that? Bibi's promising that he's gonna return to the full on war. Trump is saying like, well, that's probably gonna happen, so we'll see. But yeah, I think it is very telling just the amount of absolute rage at Wykoff. It's very good that he's Jewish. I'll just say that. Yeah, it really gives him at least a little. I'm sure, sure he's getting all of the like self hating Jew and all of that sort of stuff. But it's a little bit harder to just throw the anti Semite label at someone who is himself Jewish.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Steve Wyckoff is now one of the most successful diplomats on the Israel Palestine issue in modern history. Like that's what they are attacking him about.

[Krystal Ball]

Very low bar.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay, but that's my point. Even that is enough to be destroyed. And they're going after him like you would not believe. Let's put this up there on the screen. For example. This is Mark Levin, by the way. This was retweeted by Ben Shapiro. It says say what Witkoff said. It's good if the US Talks directly with Hamas. Question mark. Where's The Foreign Policy 18. Question mark. Don't we have a new Secretary of state? Just confirmed unanimously by the Senate. Even Blinken didn't suggest this. Hamas committed unimaginable acts of genocide. Now we are willing to talk to them to better understand them. Question. Look, here's the thing, and this is the strawberry. They're like, oh, he says he wants to talk with Hamas. Steve Witkoff actually is trying to get hostages out, right?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So who's holding the hostages?

[Krystal Ball]

That's right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Oh, oh, right. So we're not supposed to talk to Hamas. But also the criticism of Wyckoff is he's not supposed to get all the hostages out. So which is it? Right, so it's all bullshit. Actually, what this is all about, his real crime again, is putting a little bit of pressure on the Israelis. Let's go to the next one, please, from Haaretz. It's also this one. He's gonna visit Gaza as part of an inspection team. Right. The thing is, is that they want to keep America at arm's length and not be involved in any of this. They don't want them to enforce the terms. They don't want them to be involved. And the reason why I'm focusing so hard on Witkoff is that if he gets fired, if he gets reined in, or any of that, it's over. Not just in terms of the Israel, Palestine issue, but the Iran issue is the most important one here. What broke out this morning again from Jewish Insider, this, like, neocon rag is they're publishing this about. About a person like my friend Elbridge Colby. They say, in addition to Dimino, another ally of Caldwell's, there's a person in the interview. Elbridge Colby has been tapped as the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy, even as his sanguine view of Iran and its nuclear ambitions, which he sees as less urgent threat to America's interest than China, has long been a source of contention in Republican foreign policy circles. And now they write this with a straight face. Perhaps most controversially, Colby has opposed direct military action against the Islamic Republic. Perhaps most controversial. Controversial to whom, I ask? Jewish Insider.

[Krystal Ball]

Incredible. Bell river, please. Tell us.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Tell us who it's controversial to. And do you want to know who it's controversial to? The person they quote underneath that to criticize Dimino, Elbridge Colby. And Caldwell is Dick Cheney's Middle east advisor. That's who they quote.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, it would be controversial to that person, wouldn't it?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Now, you know there's a lot of people who watch the show vote for Donald Trump. There's a lot of people who watch the show, who we even interviewed, who voted for AOC and for Donald Trump. And one of the main reasons they did is a departure from the foreign policy consensus. Now, Trump has failed them many times in many different ways, but perhaps on this one, at least, through the idea of personnel is policy. We all need to come together and to actually put pressure on the Trump administration and the outside to make sure that these people do not succeed. Because if Mike Domino gets fired, if Elbridge Colby doesn't get through, you don't have a chance in hell at getting even 5%. And the reason why I know this is that in the first Trump administration, the battle for any America first policy was lost on day 23 when Mike Flynn was fired. Now, Flynn was an idiot, don't get me wrong. But Flynn actually believed, believed in what Trump did. And more importantly, a lot of the people who worked for Mike Flynn, who were genuinely America first, all of them were forced out by HR McMaster. And HR McMaster did what? He ramped up the troops in Afghanistan. He encouraged all this Soleimani striking. He encouraged all these weapons to Ukraine. Now, listen, Trump is culpable, of course. I'm not gonna put him off the hook. He agreed to do all of this, but he's a malleable guy according to the people around him. So if you wanna play the game, we have to protect these people because otherwise it's game over. Like, look, listen to them very clearly. They say that controversial, the controversy around this is to oppose war with Iran. They're telling us what they want us to do. They want to invade and impose regime change on this country. And so it's my, you know, what I'm trying to do is to expose them, but also to try and assemble some people who we need to like, put pressure on the administration if we actually want to see this change. Because nothing can destroy your country and its wealth and its people more than a bad decision in war. As we saw with Iraq, it destroyed us.

[Krystal Ball]

And just to tie it all together, and I know people know this, but Israel has long wanted to drag us in, especially to a war with Iran. You'll recall Bibi Netanyahu famously making a trip here during the Obama administration to oppose the jcpoa. That was the Iranian nuclear deal. You know, this would be a key priority for major Donald Trump donors like Miriam Adelson, who was seated right there in the dais behind him and who seemed to really get her picks in terms of a lot of the high profile cabinet level names who all had very consistent, hawkish views with regard to Iran. And some of them are just like total end times, you know, pro Israel fanatics like Mike Huckabee, Elise Stefanik Rubio has been a consistent hawk with regard to Iran, et cetera. So these next layer down is kind of the next battle. And so, yeah, we'll see how it all plays out. I mean, one thing that is a little different now versus previously is bipartisan administrations have really coddled the Saudi Arabians and been very cozy with them even long past the point of utility and political sense. And Saudi and Iran were very much arch rivals at loggerheads. That has eased somewhat as they've made common cause during the Israeli genocide in Gaza. They've had some rapprochement actually brokered by the Chinese. So there is somewhat less hostility between those two nations. Which means that, you know, even as top Trump priorities pursuing this, I think wrongheaded, but we can get to that another day. Saudi normalization deal with Israel doesn't necessarily require the same like totally hawkish and adversarial approach to Iran, but there are very powerful parts of this Republican coalition and of the Trump donor base that Want the war with Iran, want the regime change. One of the things that we gave Israel in exchange for this at least temporary ceasefire to be be joining with them or at least green lighting attacks on Iranian nuclear facilities and those sorts of really escalatory actions. So anyway, a lot of question marks.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

Could be very soon.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And you talked a bit about Ukraine and Russia, but how long do you think it would take to end that conflict?

[Krystal Ball]

I have to speak to President Putin.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We're going to have to find out. He can't be thrilled. He's not doing so well. I mean, he's grinding it out. But most people thought that war would have been over in about one week. And now you're into three years.

[Krystal Ball]

Right? So he can't be.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He can't be thrilled. It's not making him look very good now, eventually, you know, I mean, it's a big machine, so things will happen.

[Krystal Ball]

But I think he'd be very well.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Off to end that war.

[Krystal Ball]

We have numbers that almost a million.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Russian soldiers have been killed. About 700,000 Ukrainian soldiers are killed.

[Krystal Ball]

Russia is bigger. They have more soldiers to lose. But that's no way to run a country.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Let's think about that. We're talking about well over, what, 1.5 million who were killed. Now, I don't know if he's confusing casualties or the number of killed, but even if it's the number of casualties, I mean, that's insane. Those are like World War I numbers for the battle, which are unseen in, in modern warfare. So this shows a couple of things. First, it's good. I think it's great that Trump wants to end the war and he's all about, quote, unquote, making a deal. The problem is, I think Crystal he's really overestimating the leverage that the United States has here. Our economies are as bifurcated as it gets. They don't sell us very much. There's not much left to tariff. There's nothing really left that they even export to the global West. They're basically a client's state of the Chinese and of the Indians who will buy their gas and the North Koreans who are giving them soldiers and weapons. They don't really need us anymore. And so Putin is in a very advantageous position if he wants to continue the war. The other problem of Trump's presumption is he's like, well, Russia, they're losing a lot of people. Putin doesn't care. He does not care that 800,000 people have been killed. Killed. He. Well, he will sacrifice 1.5 million if he wants to.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, it's much larger population than Ukraine. So it's. I mean, just as a person, like, it's so grim to say this, but it's a lower consequence for the Russian nation than it is for the Ukrainians. I was just reading. Apparently the Kremlin spokesperson, Dmitry Peskov indicated that Moscow was ready for an equal and mutually respectful dialogue, but was sort of, like, unimportant. Impressed with the threats for more sanctions. They said it didn't really sound like anything particularly new. But while we don't have as much leverage with the Russians because they already are the most sanctioned country on the entire planet and are already living and dealing with that, not that there hasn't been any economic hardship, but they've been able to cope. The country we do have leverage with is Ukraine. Obviously. We have a lot of leverage with Ukraine. We can basically. I mean, we can and can call each other completely dependent on our. Our funding and our weapon shipment and our diplomatic support and all of that. So, you know, it seems to. Who knows what Trump is doing behind the scenes and what his real plans are, blah, blah, blah. Who knows if he even knows? But it seems to me that the place where the leverage really needs to be applied is with our own ally, where we actually have the leverage versus additional. You really think additional sanctions on Russia are going to, like, significantly move the needle? I'm sorry, I just don't think that at this point.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, I don't think so. I mean, I'm wondering if some of this is a psyop to get the Ukrainians to see that we are putting pressure on Russia one way, also pressure them behind the scenes. I have no idea. Trump is saying that he will meet with Putin and Zelensky. I think he literally said anytime he's willing to do it if they want to talk. Now Zelenskyy, though, at Davos is also making a lot of demands. Let's put this up there on the screen. He says the US Must be part of a Ukraine peacekeeping force. He wants U.S. troops to be part of peacekeeping in Ukraine. He says it can't be without the United States. Even. Even if some European friends think it can be. No, it can't be. Nobody will risk without the United States. So his peace condition is that we have to occupy peace.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know that he's wrong, though. I mean, no part of me wants this, but I think he might be right, that if you're going to have some sort of a maintain the peace kind of a ground force, I doubt that the Europeans could or would do it on their own.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, exactly, which is why the whole point is the whole thing is untenable. So let's just sign a deal and let's just convince the Russians it's not in their best interest and they've eventually passed that. Then we'll figure it out then. But you know, the current situation is equally as bad and as untenable. Over a million people are dead in the war, you know, and like you said, proportionality is very important here. This is not a big country. They have lost apparently to them, three generations now of men. So, you know, 18 to 25 or 18, I think it's 18 to 25 year old men are not eligible for the draft. If you're 25 and up, good chances are you've been drafted and into combat. And that's why the average age of their military is what, some 40 or 50 years old? Nobody even really knows the data, but they're running out of people at a basic level. And, you know, the depopulation already of their country would take them multiple generations just to replace, let alone, if they continue this war and inevitably do need to draft 18 to 25 year olds, then, yeah, you're gonna find yourself like the Soviet Union did, fighting the Nazis. Everyone born in like 1920-1925 who was draft age was just dead, you know, by the end of the war. It was horrible. It was a disaster.

[Krystal Ball]

Terrible. Yeah. I was just looking at the population numbers. Ukraine, the Latest that says 37 million and Russia is 144 million. So I mean, it's just vastly larger population, vastly more resources endemic to the country. So it's long been a really unbalanced situation. And Trump had promised like he was going to have this all wrapped up before he even got into office. That was always totally preposterous and it was disconcerting that it didn't get mentioned at all on Inauguration Day. And I think it's still very, I think he recognizes, like, this is not going to be easy, easy to deal with. And the Zelensky message at the World Economic Forum of like, oh, we're gonna need US peace. That's an indication of how difficult it ever is to wrap up one of these conflicts and how frequently unpopular it ends up being. Because if we're being honest, the American people are kind of like tuned down on this conflict at this point.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes, that's right.

[Krystal Ball]

It's on the back burner. It's not causing Trump any real political headaches. It's a lot dicier, as Biden found out when he withdrew from Afghanistan, to actually end the conflict and have to deal with the aftermath and the messiness and the loss of territory and all of that and the media onslaught which will undoubtedly come. So, yeah, we'll see, we'll see where this goes. But a lot of mixed, I'd say, signals from Trump at this point.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Absolutely. You're absolutely right. Okay, guys, we talked too much here as usual. So we'll cover the meta story on Monday and yeah, we'll see you all then. Unless some big news breaks over the weekend, the new year means new health goals not just for your body, but your finances too. But did you know financial health is directly related to identity protection? You need LifeLock because your personal info is in endless places that are outside of your control. It only takes one mistake, and not even your mistake, to expose you to identity theft and lost funds. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points per second and alerts you to threats you could miss on your own. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialist will fix it, backed by the million dollar protection package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your subscription money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or other financial losses from identity theft alone. Resolve to make identity health and wealth part of your New Year's goals with LifeLock. Visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iheart terms apply. Roku has what you need to make your college home away from home feel more like your own. Make your dorm the place to be with Roku tv or bring a Roku streaming stick to easily access all your favorite free and premium content like iHeartradio. Stream your favorite playlist with the Roku Vibe setting Smart light strips to sync your music to millions of colors and make your dorm feel more like you. Make your dorm the place to be with Roku TV streaming players and smart lights. Head to roku.com or your favorite retailer to deck out your dorm. The New Year's Here, it's the perfect time to refresh those household essentials and.

[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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