12/5/24: Morning Joe Death Spiral, French Gov Collapses, Biden Mulls Mass Pardons

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Episode: Morning Joe Death Spiral, French Gov Collapses, Biden Mulls Mass Pardons
Release Date: December 5, 2024

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Overview

In this compelling episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar, hosts Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti delve into three major topics shaking the political landscape: the declining fortunes of Morning Joe, the dramatic collapse of the French government, and President Biden’s contemplation of mass pardons for several high-profile figures. With sharp analysis and insightful commentary, Krystal and Saagar dissect these events, exploring their implications for American and global politics.

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1. Morning Joe’s Declining Fortunes

Internal Struggles and Audience Plunge

Krystal and Saagar begin by examining the turmoil surrounding MSNBC’s Morning Joe. The hosts discuss recent events where conservative commentator David Frum made controversial remarks about Fox News, leading to a public relations crisis for the show.

• Krystal remarks at [02:15]:
  "Donald Trump's election prompted extraordinary developments in media, with figures like Bill Maher reconsidering their roles."

• Saagar challenges at [03:14]:
  "They've been calling Donald Trump a con man since the late '70s. This isn’t original criticism; it’s longstanding."

The conversation highlights how Morning Joe's attempt to balance perspectives ended up alienating a significant portion of its audience. Following Frum’s edgy comments, the show experienced a staggering 40% drop in viewership within an hour, signaling a severe decline.

• Krystal emphasizes at [08:06]:
  "If we're at a stage where a comment like this causes a meltdown, there's a problem with the times we're in."

Meanwhile, Saagar points out the broader issue of MSNBC losing roughly 50% of its audience, leading to strategic shifts such as spinning off MSNBC into a well-funded startup. This move aims to reinvent the network but raises questions about its future relevance.

Impact on Media and Public Perception

Krystal and Saagar argue that Morning Joe’s struggles reflect a larger trend of media outlets grappling with maintaining credibility while catering to polarized audiences. They critique Morning Joe’s inability to sustain a balanced dialogue, ultimately contributing to its downfall.

• Saagar states at [09:00]:
  "You can't be fearful. If you can't be fearful just because some people have said that we're fearful, let me tell you something. There's a problem with the times we're in."

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2. Collapse of the French Government

Snap Elections and Political Instability

The discussion shifts to France, where President Emmanuel Macron faces unprecedented political upheaval. Krystal and Saagar provide a detailed account of the snap elections and the subsequent government collapse.

• Krystal outlines at [18:06]:
  "Manuel Macron called snap elections foolishly, resulting in a fragmented assembly where the left won the most seats but Macron opted for a center-right coalition, hoping to sidestep Marine Le Pen’s far-right surge."

Despite forming a coalition with center-right factions to stabilize his government, Macron’s strategy backfired, leading to a vote of no confidence that ousted Prime Minister Michel Barnier. This marked Barnier as the shortest-lived prime minister in modern French history.

• Krystal explains at [21:58]:
  "The collapse means Macron must confront a snowballing political and economic crisis, risking shockwaves across the eurozone."

European Implications and Future Uncertainty

Krystal and Saagar analyze the broader implications for Europe, noting that the French government's instability could exacerbate tensions regarding the Ukraine conflict and EU’s economic policies. They speculate on Macron's next moves and the potential for increased influence of far-right factions.

• Saagar comments at [22:24]:
  "Europe is in turmoil with Germany torn over escalating the war in Ukraine and Macron considering deploying French troops. The internal crises make it unclear how Europe will navigate these challenges."

The hosts also draw parallels between France’s political instability and broader global trends of anti-incumbency and the rise of populist movements, suggesting that Macron's failure could inspire similar shifts in other democracies.

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3. Biden Mulls Mass Pardons

Potential Sweeping Pardons Explained

A significant portion of the episode focuses on President Biden’s rumored plans to issue mass pardons to key figures, including Dr. Anthony Fauci, Liz Cheney, and Adam Schiff. Krystal and Saagar scrutinize the motivations and potential consequences of such a move.

• Krystal raises concerns at [32:26]:
  "Biden is considering pardons for individuals like Fauci, Cheney, and Schiff. This raises questions about accountability and the rule of law."

Elitism and Selective Accountability

The hosts criticize the selective nature of the proposed pardons, arguing that they appear to protect political elites rather than addressing systemic issues of corruption or wrongdoing.

• Krystal argues at [36:32]:
  "Pardoning Fauci, who she accuses of lying and perjury, undermines public trust and accountability."

• Saagar responds at [38:09]:
  "Pardoning Fauci would be antithetical to any form of accountability. Fauci's actions during the COVID-19 pandemic warrant serious scrutiny and potential repercussions."

They highlight the hypocrisy in Biden’s actions, drawing parallels to former presidents’ pardon practices and questioning the integrity of forgiving only specific individuals while ignoring others who have committed similar or worse offenses.

Legal and Ethical Implications

The discussion delves into the legal complexities of preemptive pardons and their impact on democratic norms. Krystal and Saagar debate whether such pardons would erode the checks and balances essential to the U.S. political system.

• Saagar questions at [39:58]:
  "If we continue the race to the bottom with selective pardons, we undermine the very foundations of justice and accountability in America."

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Conclusion

In this episode, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti provide a thorough analysis of significant political developments both domestically and internationally. They critically assess the decline of influential media outlets like Morning Joe, the volatile state of the French government, and the controversial considerations of mass pardons by President Biden. Their incisive commentary offers listeners a nuanced understanding of these complex issues, emphasizing the importance of accountability and the dangers of political instability.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Krystal on Media's Role:
  [01:31] "Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show."

• Saagar on Originality of Criticism:
  [03:14] "They've been calling Donald Trump a con man since the late '70s. This isn't original criticism; it's longstanding."

• Krystal on Mandating Change:
  [08:06] "If we're at a stage where a comment like this causes a meltdown, there's a problem with the times we're in."

• Saagar on Media’s Fear:
  [09:00] "You can't be fearful. If you can't be fearful just because some people have said that we're fearful, let me tell you something. There's a problem with the times we're in."

• Krystal on French Political Crisis:
  [21:58] "The collapse means Macron must confront a snowballing political and economic crisis, risking shockwaves across the eurozone."

• Krystal on Biden's Pardons:
  [32:26] "Biden is considering pardons for individuals like Fauci, Cheney, and Schiff. This raises questions about accountability and the rule of law."

• Saagar on Accountability:
  [38:09] "Pardoning Fauci would be antithetical to any form of accountability. Fauci's actions during the COVID-19 pandemic warrant serious scrutiny and potential repercussions."

• Krystal on Selective Pardons:
  [39:58] "If we continue the race to the bottom with selective pardons, we undermine the very foundations of justice and accountability in America."

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This episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar serves as a crucial analysis of current political turbulence, offering listeners deep insights into media dynamics, international governmental crises, and the contentious issue of executive pardons. Through their articulate discourse, Krystal and Saagar underscore the ongoing struggles for accountability and stability in an increasingly polarized world.

Transcript

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[Unknown Speaker D]

Guys, Sager and Crystal here.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Unknown Speaker D]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Unknown Speaker C]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Unknown Speaker D]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] at the same time there was some extraordinary developments in media Donald Trump's election prompting some to think they should just quit. One of them is HBO's Bill Maher. You can take a listen to his reasoning.

[Unknown Speaker A]

I mean, I may quit because I don't want to do another. I did Trump. I did. I. I did all the Trump stuff before anybody. I called him a con man before anybody. I did. He's a mafia boss. I was the one who said he wasn't going to concede the election. I've done it. I've seen this.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Well, then how come he's so hostile to Jimmy Kimmel and not to you?

[Unknown Speaker A]

He's very hostile to me.

[Unknown Speaker D]

He thinks about me every week. Oh, really?

[Unknown Speaker A]

Oh, yes. Every week he accidentally watches my show and then low ratings, losers. Oh, well, yeah, but I mean, I just, I'm bored with it.

[Unknown Speaker D]

So which is it? Is he bored or is he afraid? Or is it because at another point.

[Unknown Speaker C]

He says, I'm shitting my pants? Yeah, I know about Trump being back in office.

[Unknown Speaker D]

First of all, he was like, I said it before everybody. I called him a con man before everybody. Bro, they've been calling Donald Trump a con man since 19 what, 1978. None of that.

[Unknown Speaker C]

They've been right.

[Unknown Speaker D]

What he called him Cheeto Jesus, Orange Man. This is not original. This is ridiculous. If anything, he was a follower. I mean, that's how I see him, frankly, as this neo reactionary center left figure who's constantly calibrating where he can be contrarian but also be within the confines of this imaginary movement which doesn't exist beyond the likes of Amy Klobuchar with your famous clip that happened with him. So I don't know, with bail, maybe he should retire. Honestly, it'd be good. He's been on the Air Force for decades.

[Unknown Speaker C]

It's like this time, personally, at what.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Point are you still adding to the conversation? And look, I know this is me. I like Bill Maher. I watched Religilist when I was a kid. He did a lot of good work on atheism and stuff like that in the past. But in the last Trump, in the Trump years, what's been disappointing is see how boring, frankly, how much all of it has been.

[Unknown Speaker C]

It's just it always comes back to the same conclusion, which is like, these woke young people, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, okay, all right, we get it. We see that point. We've heard that point before. And so it was funny Jane Fonda being kind of like, huh, well, why doesn't he go after you? Which I think she's correct that at this point, Maher has a lot of fans, even as he still, you know, is a Trump opponent. There's no doubt he voted for Kamala Harris. He thought Kamala Harris was gonna win, as I did and many others. But because a lot of his commentary is punching left, he does have a lot of fans who are Republican, right wing, voter for Trump, et cetera. So in any case, it is kind of funny that he's wavering between I'm just bored and sort of exhausted by it, or I might be kind of scared of the next term. Speaking of all of that drama, a very interesting drama is playing out, a Greek tragedy potentially playing out over with the Morning Joe people and their whole roster of regulars. So David Frum apparently went on the show and made some spicy comments about Fox News. We can put this tear sheet up on the screen of him explaining how all of this went down. The headline here is the Sound of Fear on air. It's an ominous sign that Morning Joe felt had to apologize for something I said. So in any case, they were talking about Pete Hegseth and all of the allegations against him. Some of the latest allegations are, you know, per, some folks at Fox say that they were concerned about his drinking, that he would show up and they could smell alcohol on him, et cetera, et cetera. So he says, and I quote, let's take all the drinking, all the sex pesting, subtract any knowledge of defense, subtract any leadership, and there is your next secretary of defense for the 21st century. If you're too drunk for Fox News, you're very, very drunk indeed. So, you know, this is all kind of par for the course for what Morning Joe used to be and the tenor of the dialogue that you would expect. And apparently David from had already been warned in his ear about like, you know, his tone or being a little bit too edgy really, et cetera. And then he goes on, he says this, and then Micah feels the need to come on air after they've dismissed David Frum who's now apparently too edgy for the show and says a little bit earlier in this block, there was a comment made about Fox News in our coverage about Pete Hegseth and the growing number of allegations about his behavior over the years. The comment was a little too flippant for this moment that we're in. We just want to make that comment as well. We want to make that clear. We have differences in coverage with Fox News, and that's a good debate that we should have often. But right now, I just want to say there's a lot of good people who work at Fox News who Care about Pete Hexat and we will want to leave it at that. So obviously, saga. This comes on the heels of them making their sojourn down to Mar a Lago and having literally on that day, in the next hour, they lost what, 40% of their audience. In a time when, you know, over the course of a morning show, your audience is supposed to build and build and build. Instead of building, 40% dropped off. MSNBC overall has lost something like half their audience. They are already, you know, have already announced they're spinning off MSNBC along with another, with a bundle of other cable news channels. NBC is staying at Comcast. So they're not going to have, you know, the journalism of NBC. They said this is going to be like a well funded startup, not music to the ears of people who are making each of them, I think make 10 million a year.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Each of them must be nice.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Each of them good gig. And they're watching. I mean, they're really in kind of a tailspin here, which I think comes out in their reaction, which happened just this morning. Thank you to our producers for getting this clip cut so that we could react to it. Where they're now responding to David Frum and you know, the fact that he's calling them out for basically being, I guess, terrified or capitulating or whatever it is that they're doing. Let's take a listen to how Joe and Mika responded.

[Unknown Speaker B]

This got turned into a column and a headline that said that. Let's see, what was the headline? The Sound of Fear. Now, that wasn't the sound of fear, that was the sound of civility and saying that Mika had apologized. Mika didn't apologize. She simply said it was too flippant. Now, I would recommend that if we're at a stage where a comment like this causes a meltdown and I saw George Conway, another guy we have on the show who we love, we love George, saying, read this article, it's going to make you very sad, but you must read it all. Oh, because of the fearful times we're in? Well, there's some problem with the times that we're in.

[Unknown Speaker D]

You can't be fearful.

[Unknown Speaker B]

If you can't be fearful just because some people have said that we're fearful, let me tell you something. You can talk to anybody that's worked in the front office of NBC and MSNBC over the past 22 years. I'll tell you I'm not fearful. You talk to anybody who served with me in Congress, they will tell you not fearful of leadership. The main complaint Was that we call Donald Trump's rhetoric fascist during the campaign. And then we went down to have an awful record comment with. And guess who else does that?

[Unknown Speaker C]

Let me see. From the New York Times.

[Unknown Speaker D]

The New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street.

[Unknown Speaker C]

You know what I even think, folks from the Atlantic, I think, I think they might be doing that if they.

[Unknown Speaker B]

Have a chance to talk on the background with the incoming president and President elect, they would do it. In fact, as somebody wrote during this outrageously stupid, immature series of articles that lied time and time again about us, reporters said I'd be fired if I had the opportunity to go in and talk to somebody who's incoming President of the United States. And I didn't do it. Ask any journalist at the New York Times, the New York Post.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Joe, Joe, you are not a journalist. You are a group of people who loves to just suck up to power. Like these were the people who were the Biden whisperers. And we see where that got the side of the aisle they were supposed to be assisting with. They were people. Joe is the person who went on and was like, I've seen all sorts of Joe Biden's. This is the best Joe Biden I have ever seen. And if you don't believe it and you don't see that, fuck you.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Yeah. And three weeks later, what happens? He's talking about how Joe Biden needs to drop out of the race.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Incredible.

[Unknown Speaker D]

He called Trump a Hitlerian fascist. That's the thing about the from. Thing is, look, I don't agree with what David Frum said, but okay, I mean, you can't be having a show built on histrionics of liberal literal fascism, warning that Hitler is re rising in America and then what, three weeks later you're in your guest's ear? That's outrageous.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Telling them to tone it down.

[Unknown Speaker D]

I'll tell you this. I've been on probably television 100 times on Fox News or some of these other channels. I've never had a. I've never had.

[Unknown Speaker C]

That happen to me either.

[Unknown Speaker D]

I have never.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Even when I was a host, I never had them like, oh, you need to tone it down.

[Unknown Speaker D]

I have never had that happen.

[Unknown Speaker C]

It's crazy.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Higher career.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Well, and you're so right. And that was something that really irritated me too. He's, he's like we said, some of his rhetoric was fascist.

[Unknown Speaker D]

No, you didn't. No, you didn't.

[Unknown Speaker C]

You said he was Hitler.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Yeah, literally you said that.

[Unknown Speaker C]

And then once he won, you went down to suck up and grovel and bend the Knee. Don't, don't portray this as some, like, brave journalistic feat. Bullshit. Bullshit. So they're, they're in a total meltdown mode. Like, they're in a tailspin mode. I think they are truly sort of like, panicked about what to do and how to maintain their relevance. And they've had a very cushy and very powerful seat at the center of power, especially never more so than during the Biden administration. I mean, this, they were on the phone with him, they'd have his, you know, John Meacham on, who was his speechwriter.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker C]

That they, you know, wouldn't even mention the, you know, conflict of interest of this person giving this analysis on their show. Whatever. None of that was over the line. But apparently, you know, David Frum is now too spicy for them. It really is quite, quite remarkable to see. And of course, I, you know, cheer for the demise of this program in particular, which I think has been one of the most damaging. Like, if you actually, if you care about the Democratic Party being any, like, better at all than they are right now and doing anything that's gonna like, really deliver for working class people. These two have been so pernicious, so damaging, and so frankly, effective in the project of blocking any grassroots populist energy that, you know, to watch them struggle and spin and have these coping meltdowns live on air is truly a beautiful thing to behold.

[Unknown Speaker D]

I mean, the whole thing is hilarious. But the sad part is it honestly might work. The reason why they're policing the Pete Hegseth comments is because they still want people in power to come on their show. My hope is that the Republicans don't do this again. In fact, yesterday there was a viral photo where a Trump appointee was spotted having lunch with CNN journalist Kaitlan Collins and getting doxxed like, live by being like, hey, check this out. Look at by Maga people who were pointing that out. But this is a dirty little secret that a lot of Republicans never want to acknowledge. Nobody wants mainstream media attention and approval more than Republican lawmakers. It's true.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Donald Trump in particular.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Oh, Trump is the head of the snake. But they all like it. They love to be on CNN or any of these other places. Not even just to fight. They like the attention. They like to be feted by the people that they think embody political media.

[Unknown Speaker C]

It just occurred to me, I wonder if they think maybe our next move is Fox News.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Maybe.

[Unknown Speaker C]

I don't think that that's crazy to think why the comments about Fox in particular triggered them. It's a good point because you know, MSNBC is being spun off. Well funded startup, okay, well funded startup or not, you are not going to be able to afford $20 million for these pair of morons who have no audience left, right? So where else can you go and get that kind of a pay day and have that kind of access to power? Like Fox News right now has like 73% or something of the cable news market share. They are the biggest game in town. And if you're going to be relevant in the Trump era, you're probably going to be on Fox News. So you know, whether they, you know, really think they can make the shift there or not, which I don't put them it past them to have the level of narcissism, ego to think that.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Oh, any of these networks take, as we all seen, they can justify anything to themselves about the move.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Of course, of course. No they would go on. We're, you know, we're branching out. We're just speaking truth. We're trying to reach audiences that, you know, we couldn't reach over at msnbc. You better believe it. And also, I don't put it past Fox to be like, maybe, you know, like take a shot of them if it makes sense, if it's like useful to them and they think it works for their bottom line. So maybe that's the move they're planning. I don't know. I don't know.

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[Unknown Speaker C]

And get to these events that occurred overseas. Just a quick down rundown for you of what happened here. So you guys will probably recall. I don't know if you remember all of these details, but Manuel Macron calls these snap elections foolishly ultimately. And it was looking like the far right, like Marine Le Pen's party was really surging. And they were. But there, there was this kind of coalition of the anti Le Pen faction, a bunch of Macron people and a lot of leftists who joined together and were able to block them from an outright majority. And actually it turns out that the left party won the most seats in Parliament. So you would think maybe that would give them some governance power in terms of governance. But not so Macron decided to make a deal with the not like far right party, but the center right party and put in place a prime minister that came from that faction with the idea being basically like I'm gonna do move enough to the right with this pick that Marine Le Pen and her crew are not gonna instantly vote against him and instantly tank him. And so rather than trying to Work together with the left. I'm gonna do this like right of center coalition and try to construct a government that way. So that has now come crashing down in spectacular fashion. We can put this up on the screen from Politico. They say French government collapse turns the screws on Macron. The collapse of France's government on Wednesday night means it now finally falls to President Emmanuel Macron to step up and confront a snowballing political and economic crisis. Send that risks sending shockwaves across the eurozone. After a heated debate in the national assembly marked by raucous jeers and booze, 331 of France's 577 lawmakers voted to oust Prime Minister Michel Barnier in a vote of no confidence after he tried to force through an austere budget to fix the country's yawning deficits. Once he formally resigns, Barnier will become the shortest lived prime minister in the history of the modern French Republic and the first to be booted out by parliament since 1962. So basically the lefties and the righties and the right wing, like Le Pen's faction, they voted together to oust this dude. That's how he went down. We can put this next piece up on the screen. This is Daniel. Daniel Nashanian, who in addition to doing great work covering politics here, also covers French politics in a way that's very useful. He says the unnecessary July snap elections resulted in a wildly fragmented assembly, as you'll know. Well, if you were following me, that's what I was just referring to. Before, the left coalition got roughly 190 seats. The Macronist parties got roughly 170. The far right got roughly 140. Conservatives got roughly 40. Okay, so that's the smallest faction that Macron had partnered with here in French coalition that controls the assembly gets to be Prime Minister and effectively govern the country with little input from the President. If the PM and President are in different camps. But no election in the current regime had resulted in such a fragmented chamber. Let's put the next slides up on the screen. That continues to explain the situation. He says Macron, you'll also recall, refused to name a prime minister from the left coalition, saying that with only one third of the seats, they were too certain of losing a no confidence vote as soon as they came in power. That itself provoked controversy. So instead he named this conservative, Michael Barnier as Michelle Barnier as pm, formalizing a tacit alliance between his parties and a this center right party overall alliance only had about 210 out of 577 seats. But the idea was this is the best way to get the far right to hold off on a no confidence vote and put the last one up on the screen here. So here we are. Either Le Pen changes her mind and let's Barnier live another day. We now know that did not happen either because he gives concessions or something else, or the cabinet falls and it's unclear what happened then. There can be no new elections till the summer at the earliest. So that's kind of where things are right now. Sagar, as far as, like the analysts I'm reading online, no one really knows what happens next.

[Unknown Speaker D]

It's, it's crazy.

[Unknown Speaker C]

It's like, I mean, the country is just basically ungovernable at this point. And it really all does go back to that original decision from Macron to hold the snap elections. And then rather than working with the left, who he'd sort of allied with to be able to hold on to power, instead trying to please Le Pen and do enough to keep her from participating in this no confidence vote. And now that has all kind of come apart.

[Unknown Speaker D]

The whole thing is completely insane. And really what it is is that there are not a lot of easy choices, as you said, about where things go next because now you have no prime minister. Also, Europe is in honestly like turmoil right now, not only with the election of Donald Trump, but Germany is like torn right now over whether they should escalate the war in Ukraine or not. Their chancellor is like simultaneously visiting Kyiv, but also said he doesn't want to provide offensive weapons. They literally have no idea what to do.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Yeah, that's right.

[Unknown Speaker D]

And so with the French, you know, Macron has been very hawkish on Ukraine. He's even floated putting like French troops on the ground. But then you also have the budget crisis internally. I mean, I don't know, the whole thing is nuts just for like where things even go in the future. And I would say it's a major problem for them because Trump is going to use a lot of this to his own advantage. Remember, Trump is gonna be in France this weekend. He's gonna be.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Oh, really? I didn't realize that.

[Unknown Speaker D]

He'll be in Paris on Saturday for the opening of the reopening of Notre Dame after it burned down.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Oh, wow.

[Unknown Speaker D]

And so, and him and Macron famously got along very well. Macron played him like a fiddle. I watched it up close. He speaks perfect English. He's very, you know, he's a glad handing shapeshifter. He knows exactly what to do. You should see him in action with reporters, who, by the way, he knows them all by name. It's amazing to watch, to watch a foreign leader play Americans so well. But anyway, he has invited Trump, you know, to that opening, famously. By the way, Trump is planning. He will be in charge of our 250th anniversary party for the, for July 4th, I think it's 2026 will be America 250, which is gonna be a big celebration. And he got the idea, remember, for a military parade from the Bastille Day.

[Unknown Speaker E]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown Speaker D]

In France. So apparently he'll be discussing some of that with him. It'll be interesting. It'll be interesting. But I'm curious to see the effects in terms of the French government and also the country and Europe itself, what they want to do and how they're going to handle a Donald Trump administration. I was looking at tariff charts just yesterday. We had very modest tariffs on European goods last time around, even with Trump in office, they were bitching about like a 1% increase. If Trump is able to get what he actually wants to, which is like 10 to 15%, it would decimate the European economy. They would be destroyed.

[Unknown Speaker C]

What were they. They were pissed off about the Biden administration's. Yeah, their, the Inflation Reduction Act.

[Unknown Speaker D]

The IRA has specific provisions within it that require certain percentage of the car to be eligible for a tax credit. Has to be made in the United States. Yeah, both Canada and the Europeans hate.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Well, and so they may be. I mean, Trump has said he wants to roll that stuff back. So they may, I mean, they may be, they may be pleased with some of the things that they, they might.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Be pleased with that. But I mean, in terms of raw goods and other stuff that, I mean, think about it, like for every EV that we buy, we probably buy 10 Volvos or whatever that also comes over in terms of gas powered vehicles. The amount of trade that we do with the EU is EV is very, very small part of that. They were upset because they see that as a future market. But in general, they're going to be, if there's any real tariffs that go into place, especially think about it right now, Europeans are heavily reliant on US lng. And so previously they moved from Russian gas over to. Over to US lng. We are the dominant energy seller to the Europeans right now. So we have tremendous leverage over their economies. We could destroy them overnight.

[Unknown Speaker C]

They're all doing their version of the Joe and Mika trip to mar? A lago. Mr. Trump, congratulations.

[Unknown Speaker D]

I don't hate it.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Congratulations on your incredible victory. You're such a genius. Like Zelensky tweeting all that stuff out.

[Unknown Speaker D]

I like to see Europeans in a supplicant mood. There's nothing that I hate more than when they lecture us.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Well, yeah, we will see. I thought this was funny from Arnaud, our friend who we tried to book for today, but he was, he was busy. We'll get him on another time because he does such a great job, but put this up on the screen. Drawing some parallels with the wild events in South Korea this week. He says, run for election, overtake country from unpopular incumbent, promising you'll change things, perform even worse, suck up to the US in very embarrassing ways, run country's economy to the ground, be wildly unpopular, lose parliamentary majority, propose budget that's opposed by Parliament, present opposition as illegitimate and anti democracy, disregard election results, be Emmanuel Macron, pick unrelated. And the picture is of the South Korean dude who just tried to do the coup. So drawing some parallels here, but just to make the tie in with US politics, to wrap this up, you'll recall Sager when the left alliance was able to sort of block the Marine Le Pen surge, whatever. Isn't that when Ron Klain put out his tweet that was like, oh, correct. Interesting. Incumbent with some 30% approval rating is able to maintain his position of power, basically saying like, oh, this will be Joe Biden's path back in. And I think they really believed that. They thought that the some would say anti fascist coalition that came together in France, that it would be a similar dynamic that would play out here in the US and that was really the view, the anti Trump coalition, that was the bedrock view of the Morning Joes, of the world, of the Ron Klain's, of the world, of the whole Liz Cheney approach to politics and David Plouffe and all these people, they really thought that that was the way to win back the White House and obviously Denmark.

[Unknown Speaker D]

And clearly the radical reaction they thought was an aberration. So for example, you had Theresa May kind of become the like the inheritor of Brexit. She calls the snap election. She thinks she's gonna win, she ends up losing. This leads to the disaster of Boris Johnson and of Rishi Sunak and now even Keir Starmer. He's like tremendously.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Don't forget Liz Truss.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Unpopular Liz Truss as well. Yeah, that's right. But you know, Nigel is more popular than ever before. You know, traditional Conservative voters voted reform for the first time in the uk. Same in France. Macron rose on the promise that he would move past. He called himself Jupiterian, which is an amazing term to like move past like almost a Napoleonic figure rising above the traditional French mess of politics to lead Europe in a center left neoliberal direction. Remember Barack Obama endorsed him in 2017 and it's been a disaster. Angela Merkel, same thing. Like the inheritor of that theory of Germany and of strong Europe and the United States didn't work out, has been replaced by Schultz. Him himself is a mess, you know, in terms of the rise of the AfD now in Germany. So across the continent and really across the world, you watch as a lot of these anti or a lot of these incumbent figures are slowly dropping one by one. I don't know who's gonna replace Macron. It could be a socialist, it could be Marine Le Pen, but either way it's gonna be pretty radical and shocking and different than what came later.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Likely, very likely.

[Unknown Speaker D]

His goal was to be a bulwark against that. And it's just they thought they could outlast the forces of Brexit, of Trump and all of that. And the truth is that those were not only nascent, but they've only grown even more as people have tried to push it down. So the Trump victory and the fall of these governments or whatever come next is just a natural extension, part of.

[Unknown Speaker C]

That global trend of anti incumbency too, where every single incumbent figure in the like in the western world and lost share and where did you say? And India and India lost share. So anyway, the winds of change are a blow in whether our leaders listen to it or not.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Yes, that's right. It'll be fun. It'll be fun to watch.

[Unknown Speaker A]

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[Unknown Speaker E]

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[Unknown Speaker F]

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[Unknown Speaker D]

All right, let's go to the View. Couldn't help but get some of this in there. Just to be clear, it's not just because it's the View. It's because we also found some interesting news about the Biden administration pondering pardons for Dr. Fauci, Liz Cheney and others. But before we get to that, there was an amazing moment between Charlamagne and Whoopi Goldberg where he calls her out because she defended Joe Biden saying he never lied, pardoning his son Hunter. Let's take a listen.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Oh, you know, nobody's above the law. I respect, you know, the jury's decision in regards to my son. He didn't believe that, but he didn't have to volunteer that lie to begin with.

[Unknown Speaker D]

I'm gonna stop you for a second.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Uh oh.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Only because you don't know that it was a lie. We don't know why he changed this.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

You really think he just changed his mind over Thanksgiving weekend all of a sudden?

[Unknown Speaker D]

No, I'm going to tell you what I think. I think he changed his mind because he got sick of watching everybody else get over. And this is just my feeling because at some point you get to the place where you just go. So I'm just gonna follow the straight and narrow. Always. Cause that's what's expected of Democrats.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

But that's their fault. They're the ones that go out. They're the ones that go out there and they stand on this moral high ground. They don't have to do that.

[Unknown Speaker D]

If I'm a Democrat. Tell me what the moral high ground is.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

The moral high ground is nobody's above the law. I respect what the jurors are saying.

[Unknown Speaker D]

We're mad at him. Cause he changed his. Oh, no, no.

[Charlamagne Tha God]

By the way, I'm not mad at him pardoning Hunter Biden.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Wait, what do you sound like you.

[Unknown Speaker C]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Unknown Speaker D]

What is it that makes people flip the. Out with Joe, but we don't have the same kind of thing?

[Charlamagne Tha God]

Well, I don't think people are flipping out with Joe. I think Democrats are flipping out with Joe because Democrats believe that they don't represent what he's currently representing. But that's just not true. That's why I say they stand on this moral high ground that simply does not exist. And I think this is also the problem when we pick sides. Right. We've turned political parties into teams. I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan. Ain't nobody more delusional than me. Right? Okay. I feel like we're going to the super bowl every year, but I'm not delusional. Well, no, that is delusional. But when it comes to political parties, if you pick a side, right. If you say you're a Democrat, if you say you're a Republican, you refuse to be objective about anything.

[Unknown Speaker C]

I'm an Independent.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Yes. What do you even say about it? And look, it's the natural extension now of reneging on all of this previous discussion because it's not only about the pardon for Hunter Biden, but the White House. Let's put this on the screen. Is now mulling pardons, Preemptive, sweeping pardons. Just like the historic pardon of Hunter Biden, the most sweeping pardon in American history, for quote unquote, Adam Schiff, Liz Cheney, and Dr. Anthony Fauci. You know what's actually amazing about this crystal, is that specifically, previously, remember the Supreme Court case about presidential immunity and the Biden discussion around that the entire liberal intelligentsia was attacking the very mechanism that Biden would have to employ to give this, quote, unquote, sweeping pardon of all of these figures. It's kind of legally complicated, but I looked into it in terms of what previous people had said. But it has to do both with presidential immunity and the power of what it would take to actually enact something like this in legal. And it specifically relies on that Supreme Court interpretation of the preemptive pardon. But more importantly, it's ridiculous from the point of the preemptive sweeping pardon. First of all, they told us that these people did nothing wrong, so why do they need a pardon? Especially Fauci, like that? That is the one that really.

[Unknown Speaker C]

I mean, because you've got people who are coming in who have an enemies list, who've said they're going to, like, that's a good. Go after and have retribution against them. So to be like, you know, even if you ultimately think they're going to be found innocent in a court of law, even if you believe that, then, you know, just the investigation and the invasion of privacy and the harassment and the legal bills, like multi. Six figures of legal bills or whatever, like, yeah, I support him pardoning these people, because you can't go even Fauci.

[Unknown Speaker D]

I mean, the guy's worth millions.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Donald Trump, pardon. Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, Charles Kushner, Dinesh D'Souza, like, the list goes on and on and whatever randos that his son brought in who, like, paid enough money to get in the door. So am I gonna cry a river about when you've got a guy coming in who campaigned on retribution, who put into place the people to make good on those promises? Am I gonna cry about them being like, no, we're going to. Yes, we're going to pardon these people. And I'm sure Democrats are going to run around saying, like, we don't want these pardons, please. Like Adam Schiff has already said, oh, I don't really want to pardon. Yes, they do. They just want to keep their hands clean. Listen, my issue with all of this is just, listen, if we're done with the norms, be done with the norms and be done with the norms in not just a way that protects your elite buddies, which is what this is, or your son Hunter, be done with the norms in a way that actually delivers for regular people. That's my real grievance here, is not with taking this action, which I think, given what Trump has said, what he campaigned on and who he put into place. Whatever. No one should be surprised that Joe Biden is moving in this direction. But okay, if we're done with norms, then let's be done with norms. Let's also listen, Joe Biden, you campaigned on, and Ryan pointed this out, you campaigned on ending the death penalty. You've got 40 inmates sitting on federal death row right now. Why not use these powers to commute their sentences? If that's something that you believe in, which I also believe in, by the way. If you've got nonviolent offenders that are in federal prisons, use these powers to help them out as well. That's more of my issue is when you're only using the powers to help your elite buddies. But again, I think given what Trump said and who he's put into place, I'm not surprised and I'm not shocked and I'm not appalled by any of this.

[Unknown Speaker D]

No, I mean, sure, I'm not shocked by it either. But it's just, first of all, it's so deeply hypocritical for what it all previously was. But the point on Fauci is that that actually would be directly antithetical to any accountability that I think we believe in. I mean, Fauci not only lied to the American people, but he genuinely perjured himself multiple times before the US Congress and was complicit in the lab leak and helped cover it up. If that's not a crime that should be, you know, be prosecuted or whatever, then what is? I mean, if we look back and we think about all the people who got away with the Iraq war or any of the great crimes of our life, like this is the poster child for what government accountability really should look like now. Sure, I get the aesthetic is not fun for a lot of people whenever you combine Adam Schiff and with Liz Cheney. But at the end of the day, we believe in elite accountability, preemptive and sweeping pardons. Yes. Even if they are for somebody who wants a quote, unquote target list or whatever. I just think it's wrong. Especially if this person was held up as the figure and the father of American medicine. He was defended to the death by the media, by the government. I think he genuinely is a criminal and he should face at least some accountability at the very least. Okay, fine. A criminal prosecution or not. Real hearings, a real report, a real investigation. I think America deserves that after the fucking devastation of all of the years of COVID I mean, did more damage to the public health system than anybody else probably in modern history. And so when you think about, like, preemptively pardoning him, especially too, if you think about it with a lot of people who supported Donald Trump or even RFK Jr. And other, a lot of that was built on the public health distrust. So if we believe in any sort of elite accountability, I think a pardon him for Fauci in particular, that's the one that got me. Schiff, Liz Cheney, Whatever. Okay.

[Unknown Speaker C]

I mean, listen, I think we should reform this, like, unilateral power altogether. But the reality is there's a lot of selective outrage out there, because when Trump was pardoning his buddies because they didn't want to testify against him, these same people who are outraged now didn't have a goddamn word to say. And unlike with Hunter Biden, where Joe Biden did come out and was like, I would never do that. He never said that about these people. So it's not like he lied in this instance or went back in his word. You know this. I think that there is a reasonable point to be made that it is ridiculous and you end up looking like a fool and losing if you are the only side that is still committed to these norms. And so that was the message that was sent by the American people in this election, and this is the world we live in now. So if you wanted to live in a world where Dr. Fauci was held accountable, then you should have objected going back when Bill Clinton was letting his own brother off the hook or when Donald Trump was letting Charles Kushner and Roger Stone, Dinesh D'Souza and all these people off the hook. If you weren't outraged, then, then spare me about, you know, okay, Adam Schiff getting a pardon or whatever.

[Unknown Speaker D]

So just because people have not been ideologically consistent means we should all continue the race to the bottom. I mean, that's just like a. Rhetorically.

[Unknown Speaker C]

This is where we are. This is where we are. And it's not just like, you know, some of these people who I don't like. Like, I don't, you know, it doesn't mean that they committed crimes. Trump and Cash, like, they literally have an enemies list. He literally ran on retribution. And so you think that given that rhetoric and given putting into place the mechanism to follow through on that, that the other side's not gonna respond. Of course they would be fools not to. And the Republicans would do the exact same shit.

[Unknown Speaker D]

That is a fair argument. I don't disagree. It doesn't make it bad. I mean, it doesn't. And I think that's what. At least I'm trying to get at. And that's why I'm focusing on the Fauci one, Schiff, Liz Cheney, whatever. I mean, has Liz Cheney committed a crime? I mean, in a moral sense, yes. And has Adam Schiff committed a crime? Actually, I don't know in terms of what that would look like with the Russia case, but with Fauci, I'm just so dead certain. And so for him, it would be like pardoning Scooter Libby, which. Who did that, by the way? Which President? Donald Trump. That's right.

[Unknown Speaker C]

There you go.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Who pardoned Scooter Libby?

[Unknown Speaker C]

I don't remember a lot of outrage about that, really, from anyone on the right at that point.

[Unknown Speaker D]

That's true, but that doesn't mean that it's a good thing. And it's like, look, you're right. Do we live in a race to the bottom, politics and all this nihilism and nothing matters? I mean, look, you might be right. You know, it's certainly possible. Is there any ideological consistency? No, but this is politics and this is Washington. It's always been that way. And in a sense, with the Fauci thing, I guess even in an Adam Schiff, others or whatever, sweeping parties, pardons that they would enact, it would be the ultimate admission maybe in a PR sense, that they didn't do anything wrong or. Sorry, that they did do something wrong to issue them, quote, unquote.

[Unknown Speaker C]

I don't really think that's true. When you have, I mean, just when you have the rhetoric coming from Trump and the fact that, I mean, they previously in the past, like, for example, they launched an investigation into John Kerry to basically, like, politically harass him in the previous Trump administration. So. And he was never found guilty of it. They never even filed charges against him.

[Unknown Speaker D]

He's worth 500 million. I'm just saying he can afford the legal.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Sure, sure. I'm not crying a river for John Kerry. I'm just saying the example already exists where it doesn't require guilt for them to come after these people. And they're already making lists and they're already threatening. Even like, you know, talk show hosts Ari Melber was threatened as one example. So I, you know, maybe they should issue blanket media pardons across the board, too.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Oh, no, absolutely not. Come on. It'd be better for the country if these people were taken off the air. That would be a net positive. So I think.

[Unknown Speaker C]

I thought you supported free speech that way.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Of course I supported free speech. Absolutely. Did I think it was a good thing? No. Did I say it Would be a net positive. Yes, it certainly would be. But it's like one of those where, look, I think in general, first of all, do I believe that he will be coming after talk show host? No, I don't. Second, also, as I've said before, I also still believe in America's jurisprudence. If people genuinely are not guilty or any of that, then I think they'll probably be fine. Now, again, in this case of Fauci and of a few of the others that are supposedly on this list, it would be anti democratic to actually prevent the government from being able to look into any of these things. And look, maybe you can make a high IQ argument for. In the way that Ford pardoned Nixon, which was a crazy move when we look back on it. He was like, the country needs to heal. Our long national nightmare is over and we need to move on. But I mean, did that really provide like the real justice that a lot of people want? Cause it wasn't about Nixon. It was really about the entire machine, you know, beneath and below him. Was that really a salve to the wounds that people felt? I would say no.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Here's my high iq. Take for key saga. See what you think of this one.

[Unknown Speaker A]

Okay.

[Unknown Speaker C]

If Fauci's pardoned, then he can no longer plead the fifth True.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Then answer.

[Unknown Speaker C]

And he's not in any legal jeopardy. He could say whatever, he can come clean, we could learn the truth.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Yeah, you're not wrong. Maybe that would be a good trade. Maybe we'll take that trade. I don't know. I mean, I do wanna hear it from his mouth that he lied. I do. I mean, look, we still need to know the details. Weren't we just talking about this exactly five years ago? Is when the first cases of COVID 19 were beginning. Well, okay, the real first cases were when the lab leak happened in September 2019, as we all know. But the first, like international cases that people were beginning to. I think the first confirmed case in Wuhan was somewhere around.

[Unknown Speaker C]

That was such a crazy time. And it was so wild too, because remember at the beginning it was like only Tucker Carlson taking it seriously because there was like this like anti China lens to it. And then it's true. Totally.

[Unknown Speaker D]

We should have shut our borders.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Totally flipped.

[Unknown Speaker D]

My friend Balaji Srinivasan, I'll never forget. He called me in January of 2000 and he's like, you guys need to watch out. He's like, this thing is coming, it's bad. He was the first people who.

[Unknown Speaker C]

The one I remember is we had Matt Stoller on the show.

[Unknown Speaker D]

Yeah. February 2020.

[Unknown Speaker C]

And he was like, I don't know why. We're just like bullshitting about whatever topic this is. In a few weeks, the whole country is gonna be shut down and the whole world is gonna be upended. And that's what he was right. He was right.

[Unknown Speaker D]

I remember I was the first mask. You know, I'm almost ashamed of it. I was one of the first people to wear masks.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Oh, you were? Yeah. I remember. You were in saga. Was masking way before me.

[Unknown Speaker D]

I had the mask. I had all the emergency supplies when you could still get them. So I was luckily early. I still have the goggles and my entire survival kit.

[Unknown Speaker C]

It's crazy. It feels so surreal that all of that actually happens.

[Unknown Speaker D]

It was a wild time.

[Unknown Speaker C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Unknown Speaker D]

And it was only five years ago. Crazy. Anyway, okay. That was a fun show. I honestly enjoyed today. That was fun. We will have. If we need to, we'll come in with breaking news over the weekend. Otherwise, see you all on Monday.

[Unknown Speaker A]

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[Unknown Speaker D]

Apply.