12/6/24: Whistleblower Exposes SUGAR DADDY Website As Trafficking Front

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar" Episode (12/6/24)

Podcast Information:

• Title: Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
• Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts
• Description: Breaking Points is a fearless anti-establishment multi-week YouTube and Podcast that holds the powerful accountable, hosted by Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti.
• Episode: December 6, 2024
• Episode Title: Whistleblower Exposes SUGAR DADDY Website As Trafficking Front

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Introduction

In the December 6, 2024 episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar, hosts Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti delve into a high-stakes exposé involving a sugar daddy website implicated in sex trafficking activities. The episode features Brooke Urich, a whistleblower and author of the book "Wink Wink Nudge Nudge: Sexual Exploits and Secrets from Inside a Sugar Daddy Website." Brooke provides an insider's perspective on the operations of Seeking Arrangement—a platform marketed as a dating website but used as a front for sex trafficking.

Key Discussion Points

1. Overview of the Scandal
2. Brooke Urich’s Personal Journey
3. Mechanics of Seeking Arrangement
4. Section 230 and its Implications
5. Differences Between Seeking Arrangement and Backpage
6. Media’s Role and Lack of Coverage
7. Ethics of Sex Work and Exploitation
8. Potential Political and Security Implications

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1. Overview of the Scandal

The episode centers around the scandal involving Matt Gaetz and his association with the sugar daddy website Seeking Arrangement. Brooke Urich sheds light on how the platform has been used to facilitate relationships that border on or constitute sex trafficking, particularly involving underage individuals.

Notable Quote:

"The website Seeking Arrangement has gotten a little bit of time in the limelight because of the controversy surrounding Matt Gaetz and his failed attempt to become Attorney General." ([05:37])

2. Brooke Urich’s Personal Journey

Brooke Urich shares her transformation from a user and spokesperson of Seeking Arrangement to a whistleblower exposing its dark underbelly. She discusses the coercion and manipulation faced by users, particularly young women who may not fully understand the implications of their engagements on the platform.

Notable Quote:

"The way that people get on the website was through the marketing and they've pretty much quieted their accounts. They completely changed the website, scrubbed it from what it used to be." ([09:48])

3. Mechanics of Seeking Arrangement

Brooke provides an in-depth look at how Seeking Arrangement operates. Despite marketing itself as a dating site, the reality is a platform for transactional relationships where "sugar daddies" financially support "sugar babies," often blurring the lines between consensual arrangements and exploitation.

Notable Quote:

"If you are actually a user of the site, you'll learn very quickly that it is a site for buying and paying for sex, which is very confusing, especially for young people." ([09:44])

4. Section 230 and its Implications

The hosts discuss Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which shields websites from liability for user-generated content. Brooke explains how this legal shield allows platforms like Seeking Arrangement to operate with minimal accountability, perpetuating potentially illegal activities.

Notable Quote:

"Section 230 is a provision that says websites are not held criminally liable for the content that third-party users post on the website." ([09:44])

5. Differences Between Seeking Arrangement and Backpage

A comparison is drawn between Seeking Arrangement and Backpage—a now-defunct classifieds website known for facilitating sex work. Brooke highlights how Seeking Arrangement has rebranded to appear more legitimate while maintaining similar exploitative practices.

Notable Quote:

"Backpage was more explicit and they had reviews. So a sex worker or a john, right, would have reviews of their profile on the website so that someone else would know they were safe." ([15:13])

6. Media’s Role and Lack of Coverage

Brooke criticizes mainstream media outlets like The New York Times and ABC for their insufficient coverage of the exploitation occurring on Seeking Arrangement. She recounts her attempts to expose the website and the media’s failure to follow through, leading to her distrust of traditional journalism.

Notable Quote:

"The stories never came out and those journalists don't talk to me anymore." ([02:49])

7. Ethics of Sex Work and Exploitation

The conversation delves into the ethical complexities surrounding sex work. Brooke distinguishes between consensual arrangements and coercive exploitation, emphasizing how platforms like Seeking Arrangement often facilitate environments where consent is undermined by manipulation and financial desperation.

Notable Quote:

"Most of the people who are being trafficked are actually, like, willing participants who believe that it's consensual and don't really realize until years later." ([08:34])

8. Potential Political and Security Implications

Brooke touches on the broader implications of such platforms in political and security contexts. She speculates on how intelligence agencies or corrupt officials might exploit these websites for illicit purposes, including compromising individuals for political leverage.

Notable Quote:

"If I were a foreign intelligence operation, I would send money traps onto the site in D.C. and New York, Louisiana." ([52:08])

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Conclusions and Takeaways

The episode underscores the insidious nature of platforms masquerading as legitimate dating services while facilitating exploitative relationships. Brooke Urich’s firsthand account reveals systemic issues exacerbated by inadequate legal protections and media complacency. The discussion calls for greater accountability, legal reforms to Section 230, and a more vigilant media to uncover and address such abuses.

Notable Quote:

"The fact that we're not having that conversation is why they're being lured to this website in the first place." ([43:54])

Brooke's advocacy for independent media highlights the necessity of platforms like Breaking Points in holding powerful entities accountable and providing a voice to whistleblowers overlooked by mainstream channels.

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Final Thoughts

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar provides a compelling narrative that intertwines personal testimony with investigative journalism, shedding light on the dark realities behind seemingly benign online platforms. This episode serves as a crucial reminder of the ongoing struggles against systemic exploitation and the imperative for a more transparent and accountable digital landscape.

Transcript

[Host 1]

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[Host 3]

Balance on a required finance agreement Due bill credits end if you pay off devices early. CT mobile.com hey guys, Sager and Krystal here.

[Host 5]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for.

[Host 1]

The future of this show.

[Host 3]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the Left and the right, that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Host 5]

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[Host 2]

And all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Host 3]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] when the Matt.

[Host 2]

Gaetz scandal broke in 2021, I was reached out to by the New York Times and by ABC 2020. Those stories never came out and those journalists don't talk to me anymore. They tout it as what's wrong with an older man giving someone money? But the reality is much more sinister.

[Brooke Urich]

Did you see situations where either intelligence informants, that type of thing, or very powerful people were entangling themselves?

[Host 6]

The website Seeking Arrangement has gotten a little bit of time in the limelight because of the controversy surrounding Matt Gaetz and his failed attempt to become Attorney General. People may not know the details of this, but some of the scandal that Gates was involved in appears to begin with this website, Seeking Arrangement, which describes itself as a place for sugar daddies and sugar babies. And one of the apparently underage people that became involved with Gates through, I guess his friend Greenberg, met Joel Greenberg through this Seeking Arrangement site. So it just so happens that there's a new book out by Brooke called Wink Wink Nudge Nudge, Sexual Exploits and Secrets from Inside a Sugar Daddy Website, which we could put up here as well, which is something of a blowing of the whistle about the site and also a personal memoir narrative about how Brooke went from a sugar baby user of the website to its spokesperson later to then the outside critic of the organization. Brooke is here to talk with us about the book, about her life, about what this, what this site is. Brooke, thanks so much for joining us. And apparently you're a viewer of the show as well.

[Host 2]

Yes, thank you so much for having me. I am a counterpoints Breaking Points. Stan, what you guys are doing here, which one's better? Honestly, I like this is it for me. I like your banter better a little bit more. It's not as serious.

[Host 6]

Take that stuff. Saga and Crystal.

[Host 2]

I just love Emily so much. I think she's my favorite. Yeah, no, I like Ryan too, very much. But the discourse that you all have on this show is everything. I think people, the country needs this right now. And the more people that become aware of this show and can see that they can agree with people on both sides of the aisle. I think that's really important. So kudos to you guys.

[Host 6]

Thank you. Very kind of you to say so. Let's start with Matt Gaetz. So I'm not sure how much you can say about this, but tell us what you can say. My understanding is that you've spoken with some people involved in that scandal, some of the girls who are now women. What do you know about the role of Seeking Arrangement there, and what do you know about what went on there?

[Host 2]

Well, it was a couple years ago that I was contacted, and to be.

[Host 6]

Perfect, you were contacted by one of the girls?

[Host 2]

No, by an attorney. So let me just be clear that, like, I don't know what happened behind closed doors with Matt Gaetz. I've never met Matt Gaetz. Don't know him. I don't. But I do have some personal experiences that have led me to believe certain things, and I will share those with you. So, as you know, I used to work for this company, and I contacted a nonprofit called the national center on Sexual Exploitation because I found a really interesting article they'd written that sounded like I'd written it. And after I'd had some other experiences with mainstream media not publishing this story, and I reached out to them, and they actually contacted me with an attorney who was representing the minor. And what he told me is that he was suing them, or she was suing, Seeking Arrangement. And Matt Gaetz, he was suing them on her behalf. And he contacted me to ask me some questions about the mechanics of the site and how it works. And so I gave him that information. And at the same time, I was corresponding with a journalist from abc, and that journalist told me that the reason the indictment was dropped was because that girl believes that the relationship was consensual. And she settled with him privately out of court, in addition to settling with Seeking Arrangement privately. So that's what I know. And that's led me to believe that there was something that happened that transpired. I don't know what it was. It leads me to believe that that girl was indeed underage. And I know that there are plenty of underage users on the site because it happened all the time while I was working there. But if I had to speculate on, like, what went down in that situation, I would say that Greenberg is probably the procurer, or the sex trafficker, if you will. The pimp, colloquially we call them, who uses the website to the girls to then move them to another place to have them paid for sex by another to a party or Something to a party. Yeah. And I think there's a common misconception about, like, what sex trafficking is like. We hear it a lot in the media and people think, oh, like children, immigrants being bought and sold, which does happen. But a lot of times the people who are being trafficked are actually, like, willing participants who believe that it's consensual and don't really realize until years later than when they're looking back that they were coerced and manipulated into doing that. And if I had to guess, I would say that most, like, men in power, like, oftentimes aren't users of the site. They are friends with people like Joel Greenberg who are the ones who procure the young girls for them.

[Host 6]

And they may not know, actually.

[Brooke Urich]

Right.

[Host 6]

Like, because if you're Joel Greenberg, you wouldn't be like, oh, yeah, by the way, I used a website to.

[Host 2]

You might not know.

[Host 6]

Not that they would care either way. It's not a defense.

[Brooke Urich]

And Brooke, you can speak to this. Actually, as you're answering that, how does it work? You're literally the spokesperson, you were for seeking arrangements. So could you just give us a little bit of background on, mechanically, what happens, how people are contacted, how they get on the website for broad, I think, context as we discuss your story and people keep in mind what maybe happened with Gates.

[Host 2]

That's a super important question because the website touts itself as not being a place for prostitution and sex work. Right. They say they're a dating website, but if you are actually a user of the site, you'll learn very quickly that it is a site for buying and paying for sex, which is very confusing, especially for young people who get on the website and the marketing, the advertising, what people say is, oh, no, sugar daddies aren't paying for sex. Oh, no, sugar babies aren't sex workers. But the fact is there is no difference. They are sex workers, but they are reframed, framing it and coining it to be something different.

[Host 6]

Like, what are the differences?

[Host 2]

There are no differences. That's what I'm saying.

[Host 6]

So just straight up, like, straight up sex?

[Host 2]

Well, what we did while I was working there, and I started working for the company when I was 22, so I was also very young and I didn't really understand the entire scheme of what was going on. It took me a long time to really unpack that because they tout it as being, oh, just looking for an older guy with deep pockets. And what's so wrong with that? What's wrong with an older man giving someone money but the reality is much more sinister. Not only are the men on the site looking to pay for sex, but there's also a lot of like fraudsters and scammers who either will say they'll pay you for sex, but then don't because the victims are vulnerable and of course discredited because they were asking for it on a website that pays people for sex. But which is it? Right? Is it a website where. Oh no, no, no, it's not that. Or were they asking for it on the website? So it just make it make sense and it's very confusing and victims are ashamed of what they've done. Because of the stigma and secrecy around sex work, people aren't willing to come forward about their experiences, which allows the predators to continue to perpetuate this. So back to your question. The way that people get on the website was when I was working there, it was through the marketing and they've pretty much quieted their accounts. They completely changed the website, scrubbed it from what it used to be. Probably because of this case and of other cases. They shed their skin, so to speak, over time to code as more vanilla. But the core user base knows exactly what it is and the word of mouth, they know exactly what it is. So people join the site thinking it's a dating website where you can pay people for sex. Right. So people come to the website of their own volition and that has for a long time left the website not liable for the interactions between their members because of section 230. Right. And I'm sure like a lot of your audience probably knows what Section 230 is. But I'll just break it down real quick. So there's this provision, it was actually written in 1996 before anyone knew what the Internet would become and that the Internet would be like 90% user generated content. So it's very outdated. And it's the provision that says websites are not held criminally liable for the content that third party users post on the website. So I'm sure you remember like Mark Zuckerberg back in 2017 was talking to Congress about wanting Section 230 to stay in place. Right. And it is important and which to.

[Host 6]

Interrupt real briefly has its merits in the sense that as this show, for instance, like I read a bunch of the comments down in the comment section on YouTube.

[Brooke Urich]

That's how you learned you were CIA.

[Host 6]

Exactly. I don't want to be liable for the garbage that's people are posting in our comment section. Of course I'm not doing that. Yeah. Now, but Anyway, that's just. That's the counter argument. But it's so layered and complicated after that. Because what is YouTube elevating some of this? Is Facebook elevating some stuff over other stuff? And then are they responsible for that? If they're doing blah, blah. Anyway, go ahead.

[Host 2]

Well, it goes back to publishers of books and the distributors of the content are not treated as the publishers of the content. Which. Yes.

[Host 6]

Which is fair. Yeah, you're just shipping the book.

[Host 3]

Totally fair.

[Host 2]

Understandable, and rightly so. And without it, the Internet wouldn't be able to be what it is, and no one would be in the comments section and we wouldn't have this wonderful discourse. So I fully understand that that's a protection that should.

[Host 6]

There's a tension there.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah, of course. But when it comes to dating websites.

[Brooke Urich]

Backpage was a huge section 230 case.

[Host 2]

Well, yes, that is my next point. So in 2017, 2018, actually, while I was working for the company, Backpage was shut down. The found, was arrested and then on sex trafficking charges, and then he committed suicide in prison. So anyway.

[Host 6]

And that was a result of that. Fosta ceca.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Host 6]

Give us that background there.

[Host 2]

In 2018, after Backpage had been shut down, or the process of Backpage being shut down and the resulting legislation was fosta sesta. So it's the Freedom of Human Sex Trafficking act, and it's basically an amendment to the amendment. Right. So it's a provision in section 230 now that states websites that facilitate, assist and support sex work or sex trafficking are no longer covered by section 230. So Backpage was shut down. And if you're not familiar with Backpage, it was like a classifieds website for sex workers. I actually first became familiar with it when I saw my cousin on it, scantily clad, offered at $300 an hour. And I was like, whoa. I was like, this is a thing.

[Host 6]

Right. And it's more explicit. Right. So you just said, at $300 an hour, like, that's putting a price tag on. Whereas seeking, which is now just seeking. As you write in your book, they drop the word arrangement because arrangement is like, what's the arrangement? Never mind. It's just seeking. What are you seeking? Well, nevermind. Don't worry about yourself.

[Brooke Urich]

Don't worry about it.

[Host 6]

It's not explicit. Like, it's not. Okay. This act will be $300 for this amount of time. It's more like we're going to kind of work it out on our own. Ish. Explain the differences Between Backpage and Seeking.

[Host 2]

Yeah, good question. Backpage was more explicit and they had reviews. So a sex worker or a john. Right, would have reviews of their profile on the website so that someone else would know they were safe. So it was actually a safer place for sex workers. And when it was shut down, a lot of sex workers saw that as a bad thing because this was a place where they could be safe. And many of the people who were kicked off back went to seeking because the website is intentionally anonymous, which absolves predators. Right. But what Backpage was really doing and why they got caught was because they were coaching their members on what not to say and what not to do on the website, which Seeking does through winks and nudges, which basically are little slaps on the wrist that say, oh, no, no, no, don't do that on the website. So they come back a little.

[Host 6]

So Backpage was explicit, but not totally explicit.

[Host 2]

Sure, because they were trying to make it not seem like that on the outside.

[Host 6]

It would be, like, per hour. But we're not telling exactly what we're.

[Host 2]

Doing in that hour. And they do that by flagging certain words and having people agree to terms and conditions, things like that, that basically teach them how to absolve themselves through the website. And the website counts on those nudges to make themselves not liable. So, like, there's two part that are liable, right, Is the users of the website and the website itself. And the website pushes all of that blame onto the users without taking any of the accountability itself.

[Brooke Urich]

And how did you. People should read the book for the full story, but could you just give us a quick explanation of how you got involved and then ultimately became disillusioned with the experience?

[Host 2]

I was told about the website by a friend, which is usually how you're told about the website.

[Host 6]

How old then?

[Host 2]

I was 21.

[Host 6]

21.

[Host 2]

I was 21. And I live in Las Vegas. I mean, being 21 in Las Vegas, you go out a lot, you know, cute girls get paraded around like we're a commodity. Right. In Las Vegas. So it really didn't seem that far off to me to seek out rich guys. I was like, well, I'm partying with them at the club all the time anyway. Like, what's the difference? You know? And I actually joined the site because my friend told me they were doing a reality show casting. So I was like, ooh, like, I'll be the next Kim K. You know? So that was really in my mind, like. So I actually did end up getting cast for the reality show, which was not a reality show at all. It was a bunch of BS And I was coached and told to lie on behalf of the company. I was also paid for my appearance, which journalistic integrity dictates that you can't pay case studies. So what they do is they make case studies, sign a contract that says they won't say they were paid. But each and every. Every case study is coached, paid, and coerced, essentially, and made to sign a contract that says if they don't appear that they'll be sued. So they're scared. And that changed a lot during the company. It got more and more intense. The contract did between the case studies and the company when I was.

[Host 6]

What are these case studies used for?

[Host 2]

So sugar baby, sugar baby case studies. Essentially sex worker case studies that go on air and say they're not sex workers. And yeah, that's like in the contract is you can't say you were paid for sex, when, in fact, most of them certainly were. And the problem with that is that it's a bunch of lies.

[Brooke Urich]

The sex is just downstream of the friendship and the fun.

[Host 2]

Yes. But the problem with the psychology of it is that the girls don't think they're sex workers because the marketing told them that. So they don't think they're sex workers, but they're willing to be paid for sex. And the guys, oh, no, no, I'm not a john, but I'll pay you for sex. So what the website did is codify that idea between the two. That absolves them of legal responsibility because neither one of them think they're participating in sex work. Right. So are they.

[Host 6]

And what Matt Gaetz said in his defense was that people were mistaking his generosity to his girlfriends for paying for sex. And in reading your book, you can kind of see that, like, because a bunch of the guys that you're involved with are, like, buying you shoes or, like, watches or. And here. Here's some money walking around. Money and to enjoy yourself. But then the sex is separate, like in. I mean, obviously it's not. But, like, you can. You can see how everybody involved rationalizes it and tells themself that. Although from your perspective, did you tell yourself that in the beginning, or were you like, this is a way for me to make money and get shoes and stuff?

[Host 2]

That's a very good distinction because there is both on the website. Right. Like, at first I didn't think that's what I was getting into, and then I realized, like, I was getting into that, and then I was like, okay, pay me. And then I realized quickly that that's not what I wanted. I was only paid for sex a few times, like I would say directly. And I decided that wasn't for me. And I really wanted a rich boyfriend, someone to spoil me or whatever. And I guess that does happen. But most of the time it's just people straight up paying for sex. And the defense that, oh, no, it was my girlfriend and I was being generous. That's a great defense. Like it. I mean, it is.

[Brooke Urich]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

And that's not necessarily the problem. I see. Right. Like, it's not all bad. Like a broken clock is right twice a day. But that doesn't negate the fact that this website is being used to lure coerce juveniles into lives of sex work. And I've heard so many horror stories about people who are threatened by their traffickers and children who use this website because it's just a dating website. So are you over 18? Yes. And you can get on the website? While I was working there, there were always people that were emailing us saying, hey, my daughter's on the website. And it's hard to get them off because there's no protections in place for the users. They don't care about the users. They especially don't care about the sugar baby user because sugar babies don't pay to be on the site, only sugar daddies pay to be on the site. So the site is geared towards sugar daddy preferences and indiscretions.

[Host 6]

What would the response be? In your experience from the company, if a parent reached out and said, hey, my daughter's on this thing.

[Brooke Urich]

An underage daughter.

[Host 6]

My underage daughter is on this thing.

[Host 2]

They would ask for her id. But the problem with that is the site is anonymous.

[Host 6]

So she could just open a new one.

[Host 2]

She could just open another account or use someone else's id. A lot of people don't have pictures on the website of themselves. Most of the men don't have pictures at all. And that's the problem is when underage people or predators, scammers, bad actors get kicked off the site, they can just make new accounts. So it was my observation while I was working there that they stopped kicking them off because it was easier to keep track of them when they weren't kicking them off because they could just make a new account. And especially for the sugar daddies, it was a terrible user experience to be kicked off the account and lose all your messages and have to make a new email and all of this. So they would just leave them on.

[Host 1]

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[Host 6]

I'm thirsty.

[Host 2]

Watch.

[Host 1]

I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength and wow.

[Host 3]

Oh, it's beginning to feel more seasonal in here already.

[Host 1]

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[Host 3]

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[Host 4]

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[Host 2]

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[Host 6]

You write in the book about the allure of the toxic Prince Charming myth. And a couple minutes ago you were saying like you were kind of hoping to find a rich boyfriend that would spoil you. So, like, talk a little bit about how that draws people into the site.

[Host 2]

People are disillusioned with the idea that they might get saved, especially in the economy we're in right now. People don't see a way out. And most of the girls on the website are susceptible, impoverished, vulnerable communities who truly do see that as a way out. And I'm not saying that never happens, because certainly it does. Like, certainly there are relationships where he saves you, but that's usually a myth. And most people on the website use that farce to lure in people and trick them into sex or whatever with that sort of false promise. And the fact that we all kind of buy into that Prince Charming fantasy is part of the problem. And, you know, social media adds to that with people only posting their best shots and glamorous vacations of rented cars and rented handbags and edited photos.

[Brooke Urich]

Yeah, Ryan, the worst about this glamorous.

[Host 2]

Book, but people believe that, and like Crystal actually mentioned something a couple weeks ago, that the online world is becoming more real than the real world. And that's exactly what's happening here, is people perceive what is real based on what's online, but then what's actually happening is so much further from that reality, but what's being perpetuated is what's online. So it's this paradox that is like just absolutely confusing and it's happening at so many levels right now. So, I mean, that's what makes this really interesting, is it's a layered story that kind of reveals all these patterns that are happening in a lot of places that have to do with the anonymity of the Internet and of these demented algorithms and. And AI. Right. When you think about these populations of vulnerable, susceptible communities on this website that are destitute, looking for money, what would happen if we fed that information to AI? How are we going to retarget these vulnerable populations? What are we going to do to those populations? It's very scary to think what the Internet has created and what it's become. Obviously there's good and bad, two sides to the coin, but it's just something to consider.

[Brooke Urich]

Let me ask a really dumb question. Is there good and bad to seeking arrangements? Are there case studies where people do sort of use this service to pull themselves up by their proverbial bootstraps and find their prints charming, and the website sort of facilitated the happy ending? I guess that's a little bit of a double entendre, but let's just take the devil's advocate argument there.

[Host 6]

Or I'm sure you'd hear about college students who are just making money on the side or something. Like, what's your experience with that? Or is it all negative? Like, what's your assessment of It.

[Host 2]

I did meet many people who had good experiences, but. And however, if you think about how predators work, right, if there is one good experience, if there is someone who finds their prints charming, well, they get off the site, right? So that's one. That's 1%. But the predators return to the site to bait their next mark. And one predator can hit dozens, hundreds, thousands of users. There are some men who've been using this website for nearly two decades, right? They get older and the girls stay the same age. And just because there are a few cases where it does work out, it doesn't mean that a website that directly targets and preys on vulnerable populations should be allowed at all. And while I was working there, yeah, I did hear some okay stories. But 99% of the time, the people who I met while I was working there that were users of the website, they had a horror story. For me, it was pretty shocking. And when I was working there, I rationalized, I was like, oh, well, you know, they just always want to talk about the bad stuff. But as I grew to be more aware, I realized that it's actually mostly bad stuff.

[Host 6]

And it seemed like. Like it was. It's set up in a way that girls and women are just. It's set up to lose in this. And there was one moment in your book, and you can talk about this a little bit, where you quit a job because you've got a guy that you think is, like, now going to start paying you and you need money, and you hit him up, you're like, hey, I need money. And he, like, ghosts you for like a week, and you realize, oh, like now I pushed too hard. Which then tells women that, okay, there's an arrangement, but it's an unspoken kind of arrangement. And so if you push too hard, then the big prize that you're looking for is never going to come through. Which then would allow 99% of the guys there to just exploit that.

[Host 2]

Exactly.

[Host 6]

So how. Like, that basically seems like the most common experience there.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Host 6]

Is that right?

[Host 2]

Absolutely correct. Yeah. And that's what I learned through meeting many sugar babies and through my own experience, was that in order to be successful, you have to be complacent, which I think is common in lots of industries. The ones who are good little sheep are elevated. And that's what happens to sex workers as well. The ones who.

[Host 6]

But most often here ripped.

[Host 2]

Oh, yeah, for sure. And, yeah, the second you expose yourself as not being in love with him or maybe being a little bit too holding him accountable for his Bad actions, then you don't get the money anymore. So you're taught to be subservient and have sex easily without question. And that's what young women are taught to do in our society, right? They're being fed birth control pills, telling, being told that they can have casual sex and you're empowered and in my.

[Brooke Urich]

Opinion, with no consequences except for empowerment.

[Host 2]

With no consequences, of course. But what I've learned is that's actually not biologically possible for women to have casual sex because of the hormones that we excrete while we're having it. And in my belief that the birth control is a way to easily control women and to get them to have sex easily without question. And the money is a way to keep them doing that. So it's really hard when you're in it and when you don't have a lot of money and when your basic needs aren't being met, it's hard to say, oh, don't go after that, like don't chase money. But the more you get older and the younger those girls look. And as you're looking back, things look much differently. And that's what I exactly tried to dictate in this book.

[Brooke Urich]

Can I just say how powerful that is for a moment? Because these websites, we don't get a lot of insight into them. They're very obviously hard to penetrate all of the layers because they're intentionally obfuscating what's going on. And you don't hear a lot of perspectives from people like yourself who have come from one side and have said you were literally the spokesperson. That is to go from one to the other based on your own experience and being honest with yourself and talking about. I don't suspect that you're some evangelical Christian moralizer. But to come to that perspective, I think on the sexual revolution and some of these technologies having the double edged sword of something like birth control. I just think that's really, really powerful. And it's probably not easy to make that case in media. So I don't know what your experience has been like. I was curious of actually going to ask you about if I went back, I went back and looked at some of the media coverage of seeking arrangements and. And there are some stories that are like almost glamorizing it. And you were facing the media.

[Host 6]

You probably pitched some of those stories.

[Brooke Urich]

You may indeed, yes. So did you find, I mean, I remember ABC did this kind of glamorous look at OnlyFans a couple of years ago. It was like an episode of 20 20, I think. And I remember just being like the only negative. They spent like a couple minutes on people potentially being subjected to violence or something like that. And it was like nothing about the owners, it was a lot about empowerment, nothing really about the dark side of the business. Did you find the media to be kind of credulous when you sort of fed them the feminist line or the sort of line about empowerment?

[Host 2]

Yes, absolutely. And like you said, we don't get a lot of insight into this. Right. So media would use it for sweeps as a clickbait article. And when media does cover the website, or did cover the website because the coverage has kind of subsided, they lend credence to the fact that, that it's not an illegal website. Right. Because if it was illegal, then it wouldn't be around and the media wouldn't be covering it. So it basically solidifies the idea in these young girls heads that, oh, it's not that because if it was, then would it be on 2020? So it's very confusing. And yes, the realizations I came to about feminism and third wave feminism particularly, that kind of failed us a bit. They are from my own experiences and I'm sure some people do feel as though they're empowered or whatever. But what I found was that birth control made me crazy and it not uncommon and it distorted my perception of what things really were. And once I got off of it, I was a very different person. And while I was working there, yeah, we were spoon feeding these narratives to media and the fact that the media is covering them made me continue to do it. But also they pay people so much at the company. Like I didn't come from money. I was being paid more. There was more money than I'd ever seen in my life, I bet. So when you stay quiet, you get more money. And so it was very hard to break that. And that's what happens to sex workers too. Right.

[Brooke Urich]

And what kind of money are we talking about by the way? Like it has to be. I mean, you're in Vegas and the money that's just in Vegas alone is astronomical?

[Host 2]

Do you mean how much did I make at the company?

[Brooke Urich]

Well, just like what does it look like when somebody who comes from a background of not having a lot of money gets on the website and can probably, I would assume, suddenly be living a very, very different lifestyle?

[Host 2]

I mean, there is lots of money. It just depends. Like some guys pay $200, some guys will give you $2,000. It really just depends. But I mean, by the law of supply and demand. There are not enough sugar daddies to go around. The expendable income of these men simply does not exist. But they use what the marketing that seeking tees up and they just go in there and they say, oh no, no, I'm going to take you to Aruba. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. But the reality is they're not going to. And I'm not saying that men don't do that off the website, but a website like this that particularly preys on them, I mean, it just, it's criminal and it's actually a criminal by Foster, but for some reason it's not being prosecuted.

[Host 1]

All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Bartesian Bartesian. It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites too. I just got it for 50 off. So how about a Cosmopolitan or a mistletoe margarita?

[Host 6]

I'm thirsty.

[Host 1]

Watch. I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength and wow.

[Host 6]

Wow.

[Host 3]

It's beginning to feel more seasonal in here already.

[Host 1]

If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian. Because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.

[Host 3]

Tis the season to be jollier.

[Host 4]

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[Host 5]

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[Host 3]

I don't know if you know this, but when you don't have time to read the Washington Post, you can listen to it. Almost every article has a listening option and right now you can become a Washington Post subscriber for just 50 cents a week. It's an incredible deal. Stay on top of what's happening by signing [e-mail] pod that's washingtonpost.com pod.

[Host 2]

Are.

[Host 6]

There any through lines on the men here or is it just basically all men that you would encounter using this site?

[Host 2]

Oh, I mean, there were like sugar mommies on there. Like a few, like.

[Host 6]

No, no, no. What I mean is, like, different kinds of men. Like, were there any characteristics of men that make them more likely to be on this kind of site or in your experience? Like, the men that you meet there are actually just the same as all men that you meet in the real world?

[Host 2]

No, they're not the same. If a man has been on Seeking Arrangement or has paid for sex and is not working on himself, he's not the girl for you, honey. Like, I promise, these men are missing something in their lives, be it emotional maturity, intimacy. Most of the men on the website are married, so they're not receiving what they want from their wife. Maybe she's had a few kids and he doesn't find her attractive anymore or whatever it may be. But no, the men on the site are not good guys. They do not come to the website because they're just good philanthropic guys. That's not how it works. And I think the Prince Charming fantasy is, like, rooted in our culture, so we're taught to believe that.

[Host 6]

Pretty Woman, the movie Pretty Woman.

[Host 2]

Yeah, the Pretty Woman pipe dream. Yes. Lots of sex workers think that's gonna happen, but I just don't think that Richard Gere's character in that movie is such a good guy if he really has to pay a sex worker. Because think about it like, a real good rich guy has plenty of options. He doesn't need to go to a site like this. So it just. It doesn't make sense to me. It begs the question, why did you come to that website in the first place?

[Brooke Urich]

Can I actually ask about the term sex work? Because I have mixed feelings on it myself. On the one hand, it's an oxymoron that you know, or I think it should be culturally considered an oxymoron. On the other hand, there's something powerful about conflating sex and work and sort of telling in and of itself. But I know a lot of people, especially in the right, are very uncomfortable with it because they think it normalizes exploitation, that work and exploitation are necessarily different. So when you are thinking about that, and this gets to the question about whether it's possible to do quote, unquote, sex work ethically, how do you think about that term yourself?

[Host 2]

I use the term because prostitution has this, like, negative connotation and the people in the industry prefer the term sex work. And it's also all encompassing. So sex work isn't just having sex for money. It's actually sexual services as well. So only fans, models, porn stars, anyone who is doing sex acts or sexual services and then receiving money for that, it sort of encompasses everyone. And I mean, as far as porn and stuff like that goes, like, yeah, it's a very damaging industry. And as far as, like, do I think sex work should be legal in terms of, like, prostitutes or sex workers? I mean, I think people should make their own decisions. That's why I wrote the book, because I want them to make their decisions. After reading my book with more context.

[Brooke Urich]

That you don't hear from the media as we just talked about.

[Host 2]

With more context, Exactly. I would not wish sex work on my worst frenemy. It's the most haunting and horrifying money you will ever make. And I worked for seeking arrangement, so I can tell you that. But it's hard to explain that to a young girl who has no money and she sees this website where she thinks she can make easy money with her body and what's the big deal? Well, hand her my book, please. I'll tell you what the big deal is.

[Host 6]

And you had a line in here that I thought was quite profound about the money that you eventually were making, but professionally as a employee rather than through the sex work. So you talk about the first transatlantic flight that you ever took, and you get booked in a business class and you write, I recline the seat into a bed just like I've seen in the movies. It feels like I'm scratching the surface of stardom. I resist taking Instagram photos and just soak it in the sparkling wine greeting the zippered bag with an eye mask and socks and the tiny cup of warm nuts. This is the luxury a sugar baby should experience. And I didn't need to sell my body, just my soul. That last part of that line really struck me because it goes to the way that everybody's selling something to get to that place. Because can you talk a little bit about that evolution that you went through?

[Host 2]

I mean, like I mentioned earlier, people who are complicit and who are willing to sell their souls are the ones who are elevated and the ones who get business class paid for by the traffickers because I was complicit. And I think they Elevated me because I was a sugar baby and because I was okay with selling my body. So that's why they chose me. And I think that happens at many levels. I think it's happening in celebrity right now as we're learning. You know, many of these child stars were preyed upon, you know, and that's why they were elevated. And then they turn around and prey on other people. And that's exactly what happened to me, is I was told at a young age that this was okay. And then as I got older, I was like, oh, this is okay. Like, this is what people do. I was told this by people who were older than me. And now I'm older and now it's okay. But the more I became an adult and I had my own coming of age working there. I started when I was 22, I left when I was 27, and you really start to see things differently. And those girls start, start to look so much younger. And you realize that you can't let them sell their souls. Like, we need to protect our children from this. And I know it's an awkward conversation to have with your kids, but the fact that we're not having that conversation is why they're being lured to this website in the first place.

[Host 6]

And maybe Emily's too young to have had this experience, but like, when I go to a college campus now and look around, I'm like, wow, these kids. These are kids. They look so young. And I think about myself when I was 18, 19, I didn't think of myself as young, just getting horrified. I thought I was just as big as everybody else, being Irish, but I was just a kid. And now it's so clear to me when I look around a college campus. So how did you get to that place? Was it just slowly, day by day, or was there a moment? Although you talked about getting laid off. So in some ways, after this legislation was passed, the website thinks it's going under. You guys get laid off. So in some ways the decision was made for you. How did you then, like, what was your own moral evolution like?

[Host 2]

I wanted to leave the company for a long time. I was already looking for other jobs, but they were paying me like six figures and I had no skills, so I couldn't find another high paying job. And I had already set myself up for an expensive life because I was young. And that's what you do when you're young and you make a bunch of money as you spend it. So my evolution actually came after I worked for the company and after I was laid off when the Matt Gaetz scandal broke in 2021. I was reached out to by the New York Times and by ABC 2020, who flew me out. ABC flew me out to New York, put me up, had a day of production buzzing around me back at the beginning of 2022. And I told them my whole story. And I felt very seen by them and by the New York Times felt very seen. I thought that these big conglomerates, these hard hitting news pieces would really expose the website. And I felt like the journalists really understood me and they knew that this website was a smoke and mirrors show for what's truly going on, which is like victimization and sex trafficking en masse. And you know, those stories never came out and those journalists don't talk to me anymore.

[Brooke Urich]

Why do you think that is?

[Host 2]

Now you're asking the right questions, Like I don't know. But I, you know, four years ago back then I was a normie reading the New York Times and watching ABC and thinking I was well informed. And it was through my own personal experiences that I began to distrust mainstream media. And actually that's how I found breaking points. I was talking to a guy and telling him about my distrust and he was like, you remind me of Crystal Ball, many such cases. Yeah. And I was like, who's that? And now I'm flattered. But then I was like, who is this? I was like, what is this? Like what are they talking about? Like, why have I never heard of this before? And that's what pushed me to find independent media and independent journalism and become so obsessed with you guys. Like, I love the show. And I actually ended up finding Whitney Webb who is the author of One Nation Under Blackmail. She wrote a two volume book about Jeffrey Epstein's financial crimes and then his sex crimes later on. And I was trying to find a publisher at the time and lots of the big agencies would nibble, but no bites. No one was interested in this. And I wrote a badass book proposal so I knew there was money to be made and I couldn't get anyone to take it up. And I'm just like, what's going on? And then I heard Whitney Webb talk about her publisher and she's like, this is a guy who publishes books that people are scared to publish. And I was like, I need to talk to that guy. And that's my publisher, Trine Day. So I'm very appreciative of them taking a chance on me. I think it's going to pay off. But yeah, I mean, if there's a normie in your life that is worshiping ABC and the New York Times. Send this segment to them. They need to know that these mainstream organizations do not have you in their thoughts or their prayers. Your best interest or public interest is not of their concern. They care about cornflakes and Ozempic and politicians and lobbyists. That's who they're beholden to. And I learned that through personal experience. So it definitely changed the tune of the book. And what I try to expose is how the news is made at those mainstream organizations, which is they're fed lies by criminal PR reps like I did. And then they parrot those lies to the public who willingly believe them and join the site and do lots of other things because they believe what's being parroted by these news organizations. And as Crystal says, they're crumbling. And I think this election has been super insane and has shown people how much they're crumbling.

[Host 6]

Now, you write at the end of the book that in exchange for your severance, you signed an NDA. Are you in trouble? Like, are they coming after you? What's the situation there? Because obviously you're speaking.

[Host 2]

I am speaking, and I did sign an NDA. And the thing about NDAs is they can't be used to cover criminal interpretation. So I have a great lawyer and I was expecting to receive a cease and desist or perhaps a lawsuit or something like that from the company, but I haven't received one. Nothing yet.

[Brooke Urich]

Well, yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I do have one last question on that criminal enterprises point, because it's full circle with the Gates thing. We were just talking. You were just talking about the kind of corruption that is almost fueled by disinterest in the press and just sort of by the political business establishment. So with Matt Gaetz, there's a question of whether he's compromised because his potential sex with minors is sort of used and has been used as a weapon. And if it's true, it's fair use of a weapon. If it's not true, it's obviously problematic. And so I guess, do you have insight into how seeking arrangements. And I'm sure this is also true of OnlyFans. I'm sure it was true of Backpage can be used to compromise. I mean, did you see situations where either intelligence informants, that type of thing, or very powerful people were entangling themselves in these quote unquote arrangements in ways that could be affecting business and politics just by virtue of the people who are involved?

[Host 2]

I saw on the website myself when I was working there. Policemen using the website to lure men into sting operations or whatever. I remember when that happened. Originally, my boss told me to go through the users and see if I could find anyone who was a cop who was doing that, because that's against our terms, you know, So I did that. And all I did was just type in police into the like email search bar. And there were so many that came up. People using their. Using their police id, using their police email addresses on the website. And so I was like, oh man, there's a ton on here. And so I start clicking them and they're users of the site. And I was like, oh, I don't think he's like trying to lure anyone. I think he's trying to lure, but not to get his own law enforcement purposes. Yes. And I heard from many girls on the website that they were involved with politicians, very high profile people. And I mean, the website's entirely anonymous, so I don't know who's a user of the site, who's not. I mean, if they're smart, they're not putting their picture on there, they're not using their information and they don't have to. I mean, is it being used as a honeypot? Is it being used for sex trafficking? Yes, yes, 110% want to. Yes, that's exactly what Joel Greenberg did. Right. And I read too, that he got the girl a fake ID because of his status. Then it's, oh, yeah, he was like.

[Host 6]

The register of whatever.

[Brooke Urich]

Seminole County Tax Collector.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So the king of. I mean, I don't know of any personally, but I do know that, that.

[Host 6]

If I were a foreign intelligence operation, I would send money traps onto the site in D.C. and New York, Louisiana.

[Host 2]

Vegas, of course. Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure they do. I mean, I don't know about that, like through evidence, but I know about that anecdotally because I've heard about it many times, so.

[Brooke Urich]

Interesting.

[Host 6]

Yeah.

[Brooke Urich]

And I mean, again, just your perspective is very much underrepresented in the media conversations about these services.

[Host 2]

So.

[Brooke Urich]

Thank you.

[Host 2]

Thank you so much for having me. Yep.

[Host 6]

And so the book is Wink Wink Nudge Nudge by Brooke Urich. You can find it wherever you buy books, I guess, online Sexual exploits and secrets from Inside a Sugar Daddy website. Brooke, thanks for joining us. Thanks for watching.

[Host 2]

Oh, thank you.

[Host 1]

All right, we're all set for the party. I've trimmed the tree, hung the mistletoe, and paired all those weird shaped knives and forks with the appropriate cheeses. And I plugged in the Partisan.

[Host 2]

Partisan.

[Host 1]

It's a home cocktail maker that makes over 60 premium cocktails, plus a whole lot of seasonal favorites too. I just got it for 50, so how about a Cosmopolitan or a Mistletoe Margarita?

[Host 6]

I'm thirsty.

[Host 1]

Watch. I just pop in a capsule, choose my strength and wow, it's beginning to.

[Host 3]

Feel more seasonal in here already.

[Host 1]

If your holiday party doesn't have a bartender, then you become the bartender. Unless you've got a Bartesian, because Bartesian crafts every cocktail perfectly in as little as 30 seconds. And I just got it for $50 off.

[Host 3]

Tis the season to be jollier.

[Host 4]

Add some holiday flavor to every celebration with the sleek, sophisticated home cocktail maker Barion. Pick up your phone and shake it to get $50 off any cocktail maker. Yes, you heard me. Shake your phone and get $50 off. Don't delay.

[Host 5]

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[Host 3]

I don't know if you know this, but when you don't have time to read the Washington Post, you can listen to it. Almost every article has a listening option, and right now you can become a Washington Post subscriber for just 50 cents a week. It's an incredible deal. Stay on top of what's happening by signing [e-mail] pod that's washingtonpost.com podcast.