1/27/25: Trump Purges Gov Watchdogs, Tech Oligarch Panic Over China DeepSeek AI, Andrew Callaghan On His New Doc

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar Episode Released: January 27, 2025

Episode Title: Trump Purges Gov Watchdogs, Tech Oligarch Panic Over China DeepSeek AI, Andrew Callaghan On His New Doc

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I. Trump Purges Government Watchdogs

Overview: The episode begins with a deep dive into former President Donald Trump's recent actions to dismiss multiple Inspectors General (IGs) across various cabinet-level agencies. This move has sparked significant controversy, raising questions about the independence of these watchdogs and the legal implications of their sudden removal.

Key Points:

• Mass Dismissals: Trump has ousted at least 15 IGs without adhering to the federally mandated 30-day notice period, a blatant violation of existing laws designed to protect the independence of these positions.

  "Trump says, 'Don't care that there's a law that says that I need to give you 30 days notice. I'm just gonna do it anyway.'" ([02:03])

• Survival of Select IGs: Notably, IGs at Homeland Security and Justice were spared, raising suspicions about the selective nature of these dismissals.

• Legislative Response: Senators like Chuck Grassley and John Barrasso have expressed concerns, emphasizing the need for transparency and adherence to legal protocols.

  "We need to know that. If so, I'd like further explanation from President Trump." — Chuck Grassley ([05:59])

• Political Implications: The purge is being viewed by many as an attempt to install loyalists within critical oversight roles, potentially undermining the system's integrity.

  "Whoever Trump puts in now will be viewed as loyalists. That undermines the entire system." — Anonymous IG Firewatcher ([05:59])

• Democratic Backlash: High-profile Democrats, including Chuck Schumer, Elizabeth Warren, and Gerry Connolly, have condemned the actions as a "chilling purge" and an "assault on transparency and accountability."

  "This is a chilling purge and a preview of the lawless approach that I expect Trump to take." — Chuck Schumer ([17:22])

Notable Quotes:

• "It's important because genuinely some of these inspectors general have done important work on behalf of the American public..." — Krystal Ball ([07:22])

• "Trump is just taking the conservative movement's blueprints." — Andrew Callahan ([14:23])

Insights & Conclusions:

The removal of IGs by Trump represents a significant threat to the checks and balances within the federal government. By bypassing legal requirements, Trump not only undermines the independence of these roles but also sets a dangerous precedent for future administrations. The bipartisan concern highlights a growing unease within both parties about the erosion of institutional safeguards. Moving forward, the legitimacy of Trump's actions may have lasting repercussions on the perception of governmental integrity and the balance of power.

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II. Tech Oligarch Panic Over China DeepSeek AI

Overview: The discussion shifts to the rapid advancements of DeepSeek AI, a Chinese company that has recently introduced a model outperforming major competitors like OpenAI's ChatGPT. This breakthrough has sent shockwaves through Silicon Valley, challenging existing assumptions about AI development and prompting fears among tech oligarchs about China's growing technological prowess.

Key Points:

• DeepSeek's Breakthrough: DeepSeek released their model, R1, which not only rivaled but surpassed OpenAI's top-tier models, despite a fraction of the investment.

  "Deep SEQ released their first model called V3, which was trained for only $5.5 million...". — Arnaud Bertrand ([23:55])

• Open-Source Advantage: Unlike OpenAI, DeepSeek has made their model open-source, allowing unrestricted access and fostering widespread adoption.

  "They released it open source, meaning that basically anyone can download it for free and use it as they please." — Arnaud Bertrand ([23:55])

• Silicon Valley's Reaction: The tech sector is experiencing turmoil as stock prices drop, particularly in companies like Nvidia, due to shaken confidence in the traditional AI development paradigm.

  "Nvidia is losing 12% today... these assumptions around building a model with more compute... are being questioned." — Arnaud Bertrand ([31:07])

• Comparative Efficiency: DeepSeek's success is attributed to their efficient algorithms and software, challenging the belief that massive compute resources are essential for top-tier AI models.

• Concerns Over Closed Models: Sam Altman's OpenAI faces criticism for maintaining closed-source models, leading to debates about transparency and control in AI development.

  "Deep Seq is definitely getting a lot of glory... Mark Andreessen is slightly more of a neutral party here." — Arnaud Bertrand ([35:29])

Notable Quotes:

• "It's almost a situation where, you know, the US rested on its laurels... and Deep SEQ was able to come up with much more efficient technology." — Arnaud Bertrand ([27:02])

• "A federal court has already smacked that down and said like this is...he feels like he can effectively do whatever he wants." — Andrew Callahan ([11:54])

Insights & Conclusions:

DeepSeek AI's innovative approach highlights a pivotal shift in the global AI landscape. By prioritizing efficiency over sheer computational power and embracing an open-source model, DeepSeek has not only accelerated its own progress but also compelled Western tech giants to reassess their strategies. This breakthrough underscores the importance of innovation within constraints and suggests that future AI advancements may rely more on algorithmic ingenuity than on expansive resource allocation. Moreover, the open-source movement in AI development advocates for greater transparency and democratization of technology, challenging the oligarchic control traditionally seen in Silicon Valley.

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III. Andrew Callahan On His New Documentary

Overview: The episode features an interview with Andrew Callahan, an independent journalist known for his documentary work. He discusses his latest film, "Dear Kelly," which explores the radicalization of individuals within the QAnon movement and the broader implications on American society.

Key Points:

• Documentary Focus: "Dear Kelly" delves into the life of Kelly J. Patriot, a man deeply entrenched in QAnon ideology, exploring the socio-economic factors that contribute to such radicalization.

  "Why did the framework created by QAnon and Trump propaganda cause an innumerable amount of people to jump headfirst down the rabbit hole..." — Sagar Enjeti ([43:19])

• Personal Journey: Callahan shares his emotional investment in the project, documenting over four and a half years of Kelly's life, which profoundly affected his perspective on radicalization and personal identity.

  "By the end of the film, I was so emotionally invested in Kelly turning over this new leaf that it became, like, more important than my own life." — Sagar Enjeti ([45:53])

• Psychological Insights: The documentary highlights how personal trauma, such as financial hardship and familial separation, can drive individuals toward extremist ideologies as a coping mechanism.

  "It's easier to revel in the past while simultaneously leading a hero's narrative that keeps you in a revenge mind state." — Sagar Enjeti ([50:11])

• Impact of Self-Narrative: Kelly's inability to move past his trauma is portrayed as a significant barrier to his rehabilitation, illustrating the complexities of escaping radical ideologies.

  "He sort of achieved the American dream... material obsessions were his way of holding on to what that meant to him." — Sagar Enjeti ([50:57])

Notable Quotes:

• "The idea of self narrative was also very important in his sort of inability to turn over that new leaf over time." — Sagar Enjeti ([45:53])

• "It remains to be seen." — Sagar Enjeti on ongoing legal battles ([52:37])

Insights & Conclusions:

"Dear Kelly" offers a nuanced exploration of the interplay between personal adversity and ideological extremism. Callahan's immersive approach reveals the human side of radicalization, emphasizing that economic and social factors, combined with personal trauma, can drive individuals toward fringe movements. The documentary underscores the importance of understanding these underlying causes to effectively address and prevent extremist behavior. Moreover, Callahan's reflections on his emotional journey highlight the challenges faced by independent journalists in maintaining objectivity while forming personal connections with their subjects. The film serves as a compelling commentary on the fragility of personal narratives and the societal factors that can lead to the erosion of individual identity within extremist frameworks.

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IV. Additional Discussions

Roku and Amazon Ads: Throughout the episode, periodic advertisements for Roku, Cheap Caribbean Vacations, and Chumba Casino are interspersed. As per the summary guidelines, these non-content sections have been omitted to maintain focus on the episode's primary discussions.

Closing Remarks: The hosts conclude by encouraging listeners to watch "Dear Kelly" and highlighting upcoming episodes featuring different guests, ensuring continuity and engagement with their audience.

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Conclusion: This episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar intricately examines pivotal issues ranging from political maneuvers affecting governmental oversight to groundbreaking advancements in AI that challenge global tech dynamics. Additionally, Andrew Callahan's introspective conversation provides a deep dive into the personal ramifications of documenting radicalization. Collectively, the episode offers listeners a comprehensive analysis of current socio-political and technological landscapes, enriched with firsthand insights and expert commentary.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Emily]

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[Andrew Callahan]

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[Emily]

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[Andrew Callahan]

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[Emily]

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[Andrew Callahan]

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[Emily]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Andrew Callahan]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Emily]

This is the only place where you.

[Andrew Callahan]

Can find honest perspectives from the left.

[Krystal Ball]

And the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Andrew Callahan]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the.

[Emily]

Future of independent news media and we.

[Krystal Ball]

Hope to see [e-mail].

[Andrew Callahan]

This story is important, both on its merits, but also in terms of what it says about Trump 2.0 and the way he's approaching this administration. Put this Washington Post air sheet up on the screen. I think they were the first one to break this news. Trump ousted at least 15 independent inspectors general in late night purge. So so every cabinet level agency has one of these inspectors general. We're supposed to be independent. They're actually supposed to have lengthy terms. So it's not Just serving under one president to try to insulate them from political influence. And actually, during the first Trump administration, Trump had tried to fire a bunch of these individuals and I think did fire some of them. And Congress reacted in a bipartisan manner, was like, you know, we really need to protect the independence of these roles. So we are going to require that you give Congress 30 day notice and that you give us ample cause for why you're letting all of these people go. So Trump says, don't care that there's a law that says that I need to give you 30 days notice. I'm just gonna do it anyway. They were notified late Friday by emails from the White House personnel director that due to changing priorities, they'd been terminated immediately. The only ones who were spared were the watchdogs at Homeland Security and Justice, which is kind of interesting, actually. I'll get to that more in a moment. They go on to say the dismissals appear to violate federal law, which does require Congress to receive 30 days notice of any intent to fire. Senate confirmed Inspector General. The legal uncertainty could create awkward encounters on Monday. That would be today, when several watchdogs who were told they were fired plan to show up in their offices to work anyway. So there's one person who sort of oversees the entire inspectors general program and he put out a letter saying, listen, this wasn't legal, so we don't accept it. So a bunch of these watchdogs are going to show up today anyway because they view it, I think, very clearly and accurately so as being unlawful. One of the fire watchdogs describe it as a widespread massacre. They said whoever Trump puts in now will be viewed as loyalists. That undermines the entire system. The other thing that's interesting, weird, whatever here, Emily, is that a bunch of these people that he just fired were his own appointees from the first term. So it's not like this was a bunch of libs put in by Obama or Biden. Many of these people were actually Trump appointees. But one of the people who survived was an Obama appointee. That's Michael Horowitz at the Justice Department. And apparently he liked him. Cause he had been critical. He had been critical of Trump, but he'd also been critical of Biden. I mean, that's their role is to try to be even handed, regardless whether it's a Republican or Democrat who's serving. The other one that he left in place was one of his appointees at the Department of Homeland Security. That individual, Khafari, has been under investigation for years, but he had done something, and he's in charge of overseeing the crackdown on immigration. So it's important to Trump to have someone who's friendly there in particular. And he had also put out some report that Trump had appreciated. But some of these, some of these people that he fired had been really critical of different Biden actions. The Inspector General at the Veterans Affair oversaw multiple investigations of how the Biden administration handled the agency's troubled effort to build a massive electronic health record system. Another one, Trump appointee at the Interior Department who was fired, had released a lengthy investigation concluding that when the U.S. park Police led law enforcement officers into a crowd of mostly peaceful protesters, that he actually, he sort of backed up Trump's version of events there. You guys remember the whole Lafayette Square situation? His report said that it was about a preplanned effort to build a fence around the park to protect officers, and not because Trump had, like, sicced them on these peaceful protesters. So you would think that would be something Trump would like, but nevertheless, that person is fired as well.

[Arnaud Bertrand]

Yeah.

[Emily]

And Chuck Grassley responded to this and said there may be good reason the IGs were fired. We need to know that. If so, I'd like further explanation from President Trump. Regardless, the 30 day detailed notice of removal that the law demands was not provided to Congress. Jonathan Turley, by the way, agrees with that. John Paccilli, professor at GW Law, somebody who has agreed with a lot of Trump's decisions.

[Andrew Callahan]

He's like a regular Fox News kind of a guy.

[Emily]

I think he's a contributor. Yeah. He's willing to go on a limb for some of Trump's decisions, but not this one. And I think it is because with these Senate appointed positions, it is so clear. And what's interesting is that you can kind of pick up on scuttlebutt about policy priorities in the conservative world. You know, these IGs, we have to have a plan. I don't know if this was in Project 2025. I don't remember it. Maybe it is, and I'm forgetting, but I'd actually never heard that there was a plan to gut igs. And it seems like Chuck Grassley hadn't heard that either, as somebody who would have a significant interest in it, because he says there may be good reason the IGs were fired. We need to know that. If so, John Barrasso, the Senate Majority Whip, told Fox on Saturday, quote, sometimes inspector generals, inspectors general don't do the job that they're supposed to do. Some of them deserve to be fired. And I'm sure by the way, that that's true, but I don't know what the evidence is. I haven't heard people talking about the evidence when it comes to these particular confirmed positions. And one of the interesting things also is from an anonymous source in the Washington Post story that actually makes a pretty good point, which is that IGs do what Trump says he wants to do, which is cut down on waste, fraud and abuse.

[Andrew Callahan]

That's right.

[Emily]

And even if some of these particular IG weren't doing the best job of that, it now by just gutting them right off the bat without going through the formal process, you are undermining like whoever is confirmed in the future is going to look like a political actor in a way that they wouldn't have before and they shouldn't look like political actors. Let's say an IG comes out with a great report on the epa and this is somebody who's confirmed by, appointed by Trump, confirmed by the Senate. Well, it's just going to be they're going to lack the credibility that they otherwise would have commenting on the waste, fraud and abuse at the epa. So this one could really come back to bite Trump.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, yeah, I think that's possible. I also think it's possible that, I mean he's doing so many things so quickly that it's just hard to like focus on any one particular outrage. And I mean so you're right down the line. However things unfold, it's possible that it does come back to bite him. It's also possible that like everyone just capitulates and forgets and moves on. And you know, I think that's kind of what he's betting on and paying attention to which direction things go in is really important. Cuz again put actually C2 up on the screen. This is some of the Republican reactions you mentioned. Chuck Grassley, probably the most noteworthy cuz he's, you know, he's a rock salt like conservative. No one call him, I don't think a rhino. Right. I'm correct about that. Yeah. He pointed out like this didn't fault, this was illegal. Senator Susan Collins expressed confusion. You're not confused, you know what's going on here. Lisa Murkowskowski loaded the lack of notice, expressed worry over the abrupt dismissal. Obviously the Democrats came out very upset about this. They could put their reactions up on the screen next. Chuck Schumer characterized it as a chilling purge, a preview of the lawless approach. Gerry Connolly labeled the dismissals as a Friday night coup and an assault on transparency and accountability. Elizabeth Warren called it a purge, accused Trump of dismantling constraints on his authority. So obviously there being very aggressive. But like I said at the top, I mean just on the merits, it's important because genuinely some of these inspectors general have done important work on behalf of the American public and on behalf of taxpayers to understand whether it was Trump or whether it was Biden or whether it was Obama before that, where there had been failures, where there had been corruption, where there had been things that had been just done improperly or unlawfully, et cetera. Am I right that Horowitz is the one who did the Hunter Biden, the Joe Biden report about the classified documents, was that him or.

[Emily]

No, that was Comey.

[Andrew Callahan]

Comey, Comey.

[Emily]

That's right, yeah. And Trump has said that he's keeping Horowitz because he liked the Comey report.

[Andrew Callahan]

He liked the Comey report. But in any case, I mean they have done genuinely useful work that reporters and taxpayers rely on. So it matters for the merits. But I think it is one more indication, and we already have many of these, that Trump 2.0 is taking a truly maximalist approach because there's not even a fig leaf here, that this is legal. I mean the 30 day period is, there's no exceptions for it. You have to give Congress 30 day notice and he didn't. So it sets up a showdown. What happens next? You know, do Republicans just decide like, well he's our guy and we're just not going to put up that much of a fight and we don't really want to cross him and we're just going to accept this. What happens when, I mean you have to. The next, whoever is going to be next has to get confirmed if they're predecessor was fired illegally. What does that look like? And so we're gonna see how these sort of showdowns really unfold and whether he is able to do things that are just clearly unlawful and get away with it. Cuz you have this, I mean the birthright citizenship, the executive order ending birthright citizenship is kind of part and parcel the same type of approach. A federal court has already smacked that down and said like this is, this was like the most preposterous thing I've ever seen effectively. But he feels like he can effectively do whatever he wants. And the Supreme Court basically told him that that was true. So is he gonna abide by this court order or is he just gonna keep moving forward and doing what he wants to do and firing who he wants to fire and all of that?

[Emily]

This is one Of, I think, the most important storylines, not just of the first week, but, I mean, this is going to be significant. SNL of all places, had a really funny sketch kind of poking fun at the Lin Manuel Miranda millennial moment of Hamilton early Trump days. But Trump was like, yeah, maybe. Maybe we need a king in the sketch. And, you know, Republicans, I came of age at a period of time when Republicans were just utterly horrified at the executive overreach of the Obama administration. And I think some of those complaints were entirely valid because there was a sort of stretching of the executive branch in a way that if you are a sort of ideological conservative, you would say these are power. You're usurping powers that belong to Congress. And it's actually fueling this vicious cycle where Congress just becomes more and more weak because they're punting everything over to the executive branch. They know that they can't get it done through, for example, the reconciliation process because it's not strictly related to the budget. And so, I mean, some of this is Trump rolling back powers that I don't think belong to the executive, but not all of it is at all. And actually, interestingly, this was. I was looking this up while you were going through that. There was some talk about this in the Project 2025 circles, but not, I mean, not a lot. This was pretty low key. I think it was Public Citizen that picked up on something a couple of people that were involved in Project 2025 said about purging IGs. But genuinely, like, this is. If that was a serious point, it was really low key. And that shows how significantly Trump is literally taking the blueprints that were drafted over the course of the last four years. And a lot of people thought they'd be giving those blueprints to Ron DeSantis, for example, a strict Tea Party Freedom Caucus, like, true Chip Roy style, like limited government dude. Although what's happened at the state level is testing probably some of his old ideological allegiances. But all that is to say Trump is just taking the conservative movement's blueprints. And some of it, I'm like, oh, yeah, some of this is from my perspective as a conservative supportive of it. But a lot of this is significantly testing the conservative movement's actual commitment to reining in the power of the executive branch. And this is a great example of that. So how many people are going to speak out and get mad about it in the same way that they would if Obama did it?

[Andrew Callahan]

Oh, imagine if Biden did that. Yeah, imagine if this was Kamala in office right now, and she had done it or had launched a shitcoin before she. I mean, it's just, like, unimaginable.

[Emily]

Well, imagine if they had been. Seriously, imagine if Kamala Harris had been inaugurated with the oligarchs.

[Andrew Callahan]

Oh, I know. I thought a lot. It would have been a politician orgasm, right? If she was there with Zuckerberg and Bezos and Musk flanking her, like, and then immediately doing a presser, announcing basically, like, we're gonna support These people spending $500 billion, these tech oligarchs, to eliminate your jobs. I mean, that's the goal of these tech AI developers, is to literally eliminate all need for human labor.

[Emily]

And Biden might as well have been flanked by them in 2020, because that's the way his administration proceeded. But this is so, so brazen.

[Andrew Callahan]

I actually don't think that's fair, because the one place where Biden really broke from the neoliberal, the Obama, Clinton neoliberal consensus, and the area where he was most significantly different on economics was this approach to antitrust.

[Emily]

Trump a little bit too. The Google suit was started under Trump, under.

[Andrew Callahan]

That is true. He did dabble in it. I don't think we're gonna see any of that this time around. But, you know, the thing with Biden is that there was a story to tell about oligarchy and inequality and breaking up these tech giants and why it matters to you, right? Why these aren't just like theoretical, highfalutin things happening in some court that really doesn't impact you, like, how it connects. But first of all, I don't think that he really cared that much about this. He cared about NATO. That was where his brain was. I think these were people under him that were more invested in this direction, number one. Number two, he was a million years old and couldn't articulate anything about anything. So you end up with a situation where he pissed off all of the Mark Zuckerbergs and Elon Musk's of the world. And genuinely, they felt like, oh, there could be some sort of constraint on my, you know, on my endless power and wealth. So they were pissed off. Wall street was furious. I mean, how many Wall Street Journal op EDS were written about how terrible Lina Khan was?

[Emily]

Probably over 100.

[Andrew Callahan]

And literally. That's not exact. Literally. Matt Stoller kept track of them. So they're furious. They hate him. They know what he's doing, but the public has no idea and are never bought in and invested in this project. And so when it's, you know, usurped and ended with a whimper. And by the way, Kamala Harris gave some indications she wasn't going to continue in that direction either. So I want to be fair and point that out. But, yeah, so it made sense to them. We're gonna line up behind this guy who's gonna basically give us whatever we want. But, yeah, if it was Kamala with those guys behind him, the freak out would be insane. And justifiably so, rightfully so. But Trump, because he just thinks he can get away with anything and he.

[Emily]

Might be right, he can right now because the, I guess the, and this is, you know, in a weird way connects back to what we were talking about with AFD in the other block. It's that there have been years, and this isn't to say that Trump is blameless, but there have been years of such terrible policymaking that Trump was able to successfully exploit that and come in and he now has the, like, support of the public on a lot of different things. Not everybody, but there are a lot of different. I mean, he has significant support to shake up Washington. And so when you look like you're shaking up Washington, people can't pay attention to every tiny little thing that's going on. So it looks directionally right. And so, I mean, there's just not a lot of energy or appetite to push back on Trump after Democrats. And I think we have a list here of how Democrats. Or we have a graphic here showing how Democrats reacted to the firing of the inspectors General. This is D3. It just Democrats are going to have to come up with a way to make this persuasive. Here you have Chuck Schumer saying this is a, quote, chilling purge and a preview of the lawless approach that he expects Trump to take. Gerry Connolly of Virginia said the dismissals were a, quote, Friday night coup and a, quote, assault on transparency and accountability. And Elizabeth Warren called it a, quote, purge and accused Trump of dismantling constraints on his authority. Now, let's stick with the Connolly criticism there where he says this is a, quote, assault on transparency and accountability that covering up for Joe Biden for years. By the way, this is not both sidesism. It is saying that it makes it easier for Trump to get away with a, quote, assault on transparency and accountability when the people who are accusing, accusing him of assaulting transparency and accountability have zero credibility to do it. And that is one of the major political, two major political parties in this country and one of them just covered up for a president who was ailing in front of your Eyes told you that your eyes were lying to you and is now wanting to be upset about transparency and accountability. So it actually is not good for the entire country that Democrats have so little credibility on that question, because it will make it a lot easier for Trump to then, quote, assault transparency by purging inspectors general.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah.

[Emily]

Unlawfully, by the way. If he had gone and given them their notice and done it, that would be another thing. But he didn't.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. And I mean, the same thing is true with regards to oligarchy. Like, if you want us, if you expect the country to take you seriously on these things, you can't be like Ken Martin, the guy who's likely to be the next DNC chair, being like, well, we'll take money from good billionaires. It's like, no, how about just, there are no good billionaires. How about just, it's bad when billionaires, when unelected billionaires run our parties and our government. How about that as a direction? And so, in my view, that's the choice they have in front of them. They can either effectively, like, capitulate to Trumpism, which is the direction they're likely to go in and the direction they have been going, going in, see, you know, supporting the Lake and Riley act, et cetera, or they could have a real, like, whose side are you on? Moment and decide that they're going to excise this influence of big money within their own party so that they can offer an actual different vision and direction that has some credibility. But, yeah, I mean, it's just this is the storyline to watch, not just the moves that Trump makes that are already quite maximalist. But what's the response? Is there any check on him whatsoever, or can he just do whatever he wants, even if it's, like, brazenly unlawful?

[Emily]

And does it end up coming back on Republicans in the midterms? A lot of that will depend on how Democrats are able to claw back some measure of credibility, if they are able to. To. But Trump is definitely making that a little bit easier on those questions.

[Andrew Callahan]

All right, let's go and get to Arnaud Bertrand to talk about Deep Seq. This is a huge development which has absolutely rocked Silicon Valley in terms of Chinese AI development. Here he is.

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[Andrew Callahan]

Seek terms and conditions Very happy to be joined by Arnaud Bertrand. He described himself as an entrepreneur who tweets too much, but I have found your insights both with regards to China in general, but this AI development in particular. I even brought you up earlier, Arnaud, in the context of this fight with Colombia. So great to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Arnaud Bertrand]

Thank you. As always, very good to be here.

[Andrew Callahan]

Our pleasure. So I've teased this a couple times in the show, but this is huge development from a Chinese company which was able, with a fraction of the dollar amount, to develop an AI competitor to ChatGPT and all of the other big players in the space. In fact, by some metrics, this new release of it's called Deep Seq is outperforming the prior competitors in the field. This has blown up all sorts of assumptions about AI development, about where Chinese companies were in terms of their technological sophistication, about the success of Biden administration policies trying to limit high tech development in terms of China. So Arnaud, just take us through a little bit of what happened here. So people have the backstory.

[Arnaud Bertrand]

So what happened actually started in December when Deep SEQ released their first model called V3, which already made a lot of waves because it was revealed to have been trained for only $5.5 million, which is absolutely nothing in this industry. I think OpenAI spends $5 billion a year, so 100 times less basically that one was already extremely good, already outperforming a lot of the models on the important benchmarks. Then OpenAI released a new model called O1, which is really supposed to be the top of the range. And then right behind, just last week, Deep SEQ released its own new model called R1, which outperforms or is on par with Open the Eyes top of the range model on almost all benchmarks. And they released it. And that's the important bit. They released it open source, meaning that basically anyone can download it for free and use it as they please. It's really open source under an MIT LED sense, meaning that you can really do, you know, use the model how, however you want, which is a huge difference. To open the AI, it's called Open A because originally the philosophy behind it was that it was meant to be open, open source and so on. But famously they've, they've taken a much more closed route where they don't freeze their models in open source on, you know, the. They don't disclose much about the model. It's all behind sort of a black. It's all a bit hidden. And so that's why a lot of people are shifting to Deep SEQ now. And now it's even the most downloaded app in the US as of today, it's number one. It's overtaken all the other apps, including ChatGPT.

[Andrew Callahan]

Wow.

[Emily]

And you know, our friend Matthew Stoller made an interesting point in his newsletter Big, where he said when you compare what China was able to do here with what AI technologies based in the United States or AI companies based in the United States have been able to do, it almost makes the United States look Soviet. It looks, you know, like a leviathan that is just, just trudging along compared to the. This alternative method. So could you do. Do you think maybe there's something to that parallel Arnold? Or is there, is there something that we can take away from the way American AI businesses are organized in comparison here?

[Arnaud Bertrand]

I mean, I think the interesting irony is that maybe there was a bit too much funding in the AI industry in the US for its own good database. Bit too much of an easy life. Because the reason why Deep Seq I think was able to come up with such a good and efficient model is because they are very much operating under constraint. Right. So you had the export controls, the semiconductor export control. And so China in many ways doesn't have a choice if they want to compete with the US Given they don't have, you know, such access to funding the latest chips on so on, they need to come up with much more efficient technology. So I wouldn't say it's exactly the same situation as, as the Soviet versus the west of the time. It's. It's almost a situation where, you know, you. The US kind of rested on its Lawrence and you know, I did a bit tweezy and was operating in. In too good an environment because of those constraints that the US put on them. They actually have to come up with simply better technology if they want to compete. And I think that's largely what what happened.

[Andrew Callahan]

I think another piece that you've been pointing to, Arnaud, which I find really interesting, is China does not our country, by and large, a lot of the smartest grads that come out with technical degrees or technical know how a lot of them don't go into science or research. They go into like, like financial speculation effectively. And the Chinese government has looked at that and said that's not the direction we want to go in. So they crack down on salaries for the financial industry and that creates incentives for the best and the brightest, lo and behold, to go into this sort of research and tech development. So talk about that piece a little bit, if you could.

[Arnaud Bertrand]

Yeah, I think that's one of the most interesting angles of Deep seq, because it was actually a side project of a hedge fund. And that was released quite coincidentally about less than one year after China did crack down against the finance industry. This overly high compensation in the financial industry, capping it. And there has been, you hear in China a lot of miscontent in the finance industry professionals because they can't make as much money. And the industry is becoming less attractive for graduates. And you're seeing a bit of a brain drain from that industry. But that is very much the point I think that the Chinese government is aiming for, because they're looking at the US and they're seeing, which is a shame when you think about it. A lot of the top graduates from Harvard, MIT and all the Ivy League schools often go in the finance industry. When, I mean, think what you want about the finance industry, but if you have pure genius, arguably their brains will be of more use to society. They were to Develop new technology like AI or working on curing cancer or things like that. I think this angle is, is fascinating because it's difficult to put a direct correction. Did they do that side project exactly because of that or not. But at least it's an interesting coincidence.

[Emily]

Yeah. In the stock market and we're already seeing some of the effectiveness in the stock market. Can you talk a little bit more about why it's affecting stocks in the way it is and what we could expect to see going forward as the deep sea, deep sea record reckoning goes on?

[Arnaud Bertrand]

Yeah, so I was looking at it actually in the portfolio just now. Depressing. So Nvidia just so is losing 12% today. And yeah, the whole tech sector is down and basically because there was this assumption that AI was all about compute, like more chips you could get, get better models. Right. And Deep SEQ kind of destroyed that assumption because they don't have a lot of compute and they were able to come with a better model because they had better algorithms, better software. And so what's happening is simply that those assumptions around building a mood for us, a company with compute, with those massive data centers like you know, the Stargate project that Trump Open Air and so on, just announced, those are, you know, very much questioned right now. And that's what you're seeing, I think in the, in the stock market.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so much of the stock market value is built on this sort of like hype around AI. And so, I mean, it's incredibly deflating literally to see this company be able to build a comparable product for vastly less. I will say I've seen some theories that they're not being straightforward about the amount of compute that they actually used here. Most notably the scale. AI CEO Alexander Wang, I think he was at the World Economic Forum, claimed that he thinks that they are hiding the ball on exactly how many chips, like what size of the mega cluster that they're using. Let's take a look, listen to that and get your reaction. On the other side, you know, the.

[Emily]

Chinese labs, they have more H1 hundreds than people think. You know, the.

[Andrew Callahan]

And these are the highest powered Nvidia.

[Krystal Ball]

Chips that they were not supposed to have.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Andrew Callahan]

My understanding is that, is that Deep.

[Emily]

Seq has about 50,000 H1 hundreds, which.

[Andrew Callahan]

They can't talk about obviously because it is against the export controls that the United States has put in place.

[Emily]

And I think it is true that, you know, I think they have more chips than other people expect.

[Krystal Ball]

But also so going to go forward.

[Emily]

Basis, they are going to be limited by the chip controls and the export.

[Andrew Callahan]

Controls that we have in place. What do you make of that?

[Arnaud Bertrand]

Well, it's difficult to say one way or the other. But the good thing about Deep Seq is that when they release the model, first of all, they released it open source, so it's all you can see what's in the model. And they released an extremely detailed paper with it. So AI researcher can go, just go through the paper and try to achieve the same outcome, which is the model based on what they're saying they did in the paper and see if that's true or not or if what the methodology that they're saying they pursued in the paper is wrong on their lying about the number of chips. So I can't say.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, well, I read some analyses that looked at the paper and said, well, here's the key innovations that they use to achieve so much more efficiency way beyond my technical know how. But people who seem to know what they were talking about were like, oh, that's how they did it. I see. They use very creative and efficient and efficient technological development here. One more I wanted to get. Your response to Arno is Sam Altman weighed in. Obviously this is a very bad development for him because he has bet so much on now the Stargate program. I know he'd been sort of battling with Microsoft for more and more money for larger and larger data centers. And now this sort of blows that whole direction up. Let's put this up on the screen. D3 from Sam Altman. He says it is relatively easy to copy something that, you know, works. It is extremely hard to do something new, risky and difficult when you don't know if it will work. Individual researchers rightly get a lot of glory for that when they do it. It's the coolest thing in the world. And of course, this was largely seen as being directed at the Deep Seq development. What do you make of these comments from Sam?

[Arnaud Bertrand]

Deep Seq is definitely getting a lot of glory. So I'm not sure exactly what it means. I think something very interesting. I think a big sign is what Mark Andreessen is tweeting recently. I don't know if you followed what is what he's tweeted because obviously some Altman is biased. I think Mark Andreessen is slightly more of a neutral party here because he's, he's an investor and he literally tweeted. I can't remember the exact quote, but that Deep Seq was the most impressive, one of the most impressive breakthroughs. It's seen in its entire career. And that's Silicon Valley's most legendary investor, the guy we invented the browser. So, you know, it's quite something, right?

[Andrew Callahan]

He said, one of the most amazing and impressive breakthroughs I've ever seen. And just to clarify, that Altman tweet was from back in December, so presumably about the initial release of Deep Seq. But okay, yeah.

[Arnaud Bertrand]

So yeah, yeah, the new model is also quite a bit. It's more of a breakthrough than V3, which was the one in December.

[Andrew Callahan]

My last question for you, Arnaud, is is there a legitimate reason to keep AI closed source as OpenAI has has decided? Because, I mean, there are risks inherent in AI development. I mean, there's a whole field of AI safety, a lot of concerns about what it could do in terms of the labor market, especially when it's being wielded for profit by companies, companies like Microsoft. There are also some more far reaching concerns about AI once it's AGI and you have this level of artificial general intelligence and then super intelligence that effectively supplants human beings as the smartest creatures on the planet. What does that mean? Do they decide they want to keep us around or not? So there are these further reaching concerns about AI development as well. Do you see any drawbacks in the open source model that not only Deepseak has pursued, but also the meta has gone in the direction of a more open source model as well?

[Arnaud Bertrand]

That's a good question. I honestly see more drawbacks with the closed model because at the end of the day, if it's closed, it's a limited group of individuals who you don't have control over, and oligarchs effectively like billionaires that take all the decisions when it comes to AI, which you're right, is going to be extremely disruptive. It's an extremely powerful technology. So would you rather have that's being controlled by a small group of billionaires? Well, you know, very much can't relate to the general public. Or would you rather have the general public, anyone who can, you know, have an influence of that, on that with the open source model? I think, I mean, any way that technology has risks will have a big impact, will impact jobs and so on. But I feel more reassured with the idea that anyone will have a say on how AI develops, that it is open, free, anyone can come up with startup around it freely on his own computer, rather than it being kind of developed secretly out of our hands.

[Andrew Callahan]

Emily, do you have it?

[Emily]

What we've learned from our own private tech companies semi private tech companies over the last decade is that you will also have similar levels of censorship and political corruption. Whether they're private or public, they get co opted or no.

[Arnaud Bertrand]

Yeah, yeah, Uncensorship. It's an extremely good point because people often you see a lot on Twitter, people are saying that the Deep Seq model is is censored. It's true that when you go on deep seq.com because it is hosted in China, it is indeed censored because you have censorship laws in China and so on. Where anyone can download the model in open source, tune it however they want. If they want to turn it into a tool that, you know, even generates anti China propaganda, they can. Right. So that's what I mean by me being more reassured that it's open source because anyone can do whatever they want with it. Whereas OpenAI, if it's censored, it's also censored in its own way. There is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, that's a great point. That's true. And I did see the comparison of people asking just very straightforward questions about like the Israel Palestine conflict on ChatGPT versus deep seq and I would say that the Deep Seq version was much less censored in that particular instance than the OpenAI. The OpenAI version, exactly.

[Arnaud Bertrand]

Every country has their own bias. By the end of the day, open source matters a lot because you can then download the model yourself and input your own bias. Make it your own right.

[Andrew Callahan]

That's what I need. I need the world to reflect my personal bias. Arno, thank you so much. It's so helpful getting your breakdown of these developments and what it ultimately means. Great to see you.

[Krystal Ball]

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[Andrew Callahan]

Seek terms and conditions we are very fortunate to be joined this morning by Andrew callahan of Channel 5 who is out with a new documentary called Dear Kelly. Great to have you Andrew, welcome.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Hey, thanks so much for having me. I'm a big fan of Breaking Points. I appreciate you guys for the platform. It's early morning thanks to y'all, so thank you for having me on.

[Andrew Callahan]

Thank you for waking up for us. We appreciate that. We are likewise big fans. Let me give people a little bit a taste of the trailer here and then on the other side you can tell them the backstory of what inspired you to follow this one individual. Let's take a look.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Why did the framework created by QAnon and Trump propaganda cause an innumerable amount of people to jump headfirst down the rabbit hole endangering their safety, lives and freedom. I thought I had it figured out. I pointed fingers at the fear mongering 24 hour news cycle.

[Krystal Ball]

There's nothing fake about CNN and it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Radio hosts who sell supplements and t shirts to paranoid libertarians. But deep down I didn't really know. That was until I met a man named Kelly J. Patriot at a White Lives Matter rally in Huntington Beach, California and asked him one question. What's the most painful piece of truth.

[Andrew Callahan]

That'S hurt you guy stealing my home? His name's Bill Joyner.

[Krystal Ball]

Financially he wanted to destroy me. He destroyed my 25 year business, separated.

[Andrew Callahan]

And devastated my family.

[Krystal Ball]

So that answers your question.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Dude, some sounds like he sucks.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't think he's a good guy. In my opinion he's a bad guy and he's hurt a lot of people. But then again look what the Democrats are doing to others. Kobe Bryant was assassinated by the Clintons. I hope you fucking die, homie. Straight up.

[Andrew Callahan]

So what was it that caused you to be sort of captivated by this guy and to really follow up with him and figure out what was actually going on there?

[Sagar Enjeti]

I think that it came from like a just not being satisfied with like my kind of deep dives into like the MAGA far right. For a long time. I had just followed Trump's campaign trail across the country, filming for my first project on hbo, and I felt like I had sort of been able to document the craziness in like a time capsule, but never really been able to understand what economic and social factors actually cause people to become radicalized, especially dudes who are later in life, like Kelly. And I never really was able to actually dig deep, but in his story about Bill Joyner and the foreclosure of his house and his family being separated, I saw a window and a chance to actually figure out the why of how people get like that in the first place.

[Emily]

Yeah, and it's. You're probing this like central chicken or egg question that a lot of your work is based, on, which, you know, I think one of the reasons people love your work is you come to this idea that, like, there are a lot of very good people who do a lot of crazy things and get caught up in the fringes. And you include some interesting stats about January 6th and for example, people's debt levels, like whether they were there on January 6, if they had particular levels of debt. There's just a big proportion of people. I didn't even realize that there were numbers attached to all of this. I mean, you could see it when you were there. But can you tell us a little bit about how this experience with Kelly either changed, modified, added nuance to the way you see the world that, you know, maybe there are some people who come into all of this stuff with prior difficulties and then it changes them. Or is it just, you know, a one way street?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, before I started documenting Kelly and this is filmed over the course of four and a half years, I didn't realize that so many people who like, were so deep in that QAnon rabbit hole had just normal lives, like in 2020 that were completely derailed by financial hardship and particularly how that coalesced with like political psychosis. I don't like using the word misinformation because it's not like everything they read is totally false or consume false, but it's Just being locked in this echo chamber of like 247 outrage content for a long period of time. Time. And definitely learned a lot about just people like that in general, but also about myself as a documentary filmmaker and how emotionally invested I want to be in the outcome of, like, a subject or someone that I'm documenting, like, by the end of the film, especially, like, after the intervention. To spoil it a bit, not too much. I was so emotionally invested in Kelly turning over this new leaf that it became, like, more important than my own life. And I don't think I ever want to get that. That involved again because, I mean, I'd filmed 3, 350 hours of footage in total, and I. I ultimately baked it down to 89 minutes. But it was like my personal expectations were tethered to his in a way that I'm not sure was super healthy.

[Andrew Callahan]

I think for me, as a democratic socialist who thinks a lot about, like, class analysis, the way you approach this really played into some of my sort of mental preconceptions because you're like, there was a material harm that happened to a lot of these people, and it sort of pushed them in this direction of radicalization. And that's both true and not true in Kelly's case. Like, he did genuinely go through this foreclosure, which for anyone is a horrific situation, but the way he portrayed it was also not entirely accurate. And then when you're still many years past that financial hardship and they're still, you know, and you've had these. This severing of relationship with your kids, and you're not being there for them as, you know, as a father, and they're having to have these, you know, again, I don't want to spoil too much, but they're coming to you saying, this has really hurt us, and you have a chance to turn over that new leaf, and that's not necessarily the direction that you want to go in. It just makes the picture a little more completely complex. Right. It's not as simple and straightforward a sort of math equation of financial hardship plus loss of connection. I mean, you actually have a sort of, like, formula you lay out in the beginning. Doesn't have to lead to this. Doesn't always lead to this. There are other choices. It's not always, like, as clear a picture as you're telling yourself in your head. Did it kind of challenge some of your conceptions coming in as well?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I started when I was 22 and I finished when I was 27, like the first shoot Being the White Lives matter rally on April 11, 2021 and the last shoot being three and a half weeks ago with our friend Uncle Pill at a skate park in San Diego. You can see my approach like kind of morph throughout the whole thing because Midway through like 23, 24, I'm like, I'm going to be able to figure this out. I've got everything diagnosed, I have all the ducks in a row. I'm going to make sure that he's able to turn over a new leaf. But one thing that I noticed too is that I didn't mention this in the movie very much, but the whole, the idea of self narrative was also very important in his sort of inability to turn over that new leaf over time because it's a comforting self narrative for him to have this heroic black and white good versus evil. Bill Joyner screwed me over. And the way that morphs with the political movement in general is very two dimensional, you know what I mean? The idea that there's this nebulous dark force out there, this just it exists, we don't know what it is, but it's there to rob everything from the hard working, red blooded American patriot. And it might not be my boogeyman, might not be shared by yours. However, we're all united in our fight against the evil forces. And in a way that's comforting to people in his position because it stops them from actually picking up the pieces. Right. That's why I was, you know, he was spending 15 hours a day putting up leaflets saying Bill Joyner stole my home. That time easily could have been used at, you know, maybe getting an entry level job and trying to save up money to start from the bottom. But that's a lot. It takes a lot of humility to be able to bring yourself back to that level and start from scratch. It's easier to revel in the past while simultaneously leading a hero's narrative that keeps you in a revenge mind state.

[Emily]

Well, and actually I just want to jump onto that point because one of the interesting things that you touch on is how he grew up in a mobile home and I think it was Iowa. And so he may have been ultimately a bankruptcy attorney, but there was something I think traumatic. And I'm curious what you mentioned make of this for him about losing his kind of upper middle class, if not upper class status. And that for him was maybe like the truth that he didn't want to grapple with. You hear his kids saying that it was like the house, he could not give up the house. And he's still driving his banged up BMW even though it's got a big dent in the hood as your camera's caught. It seems like there was something about growing up poor that made him cling to the kind of fantasy of having made.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, definitely, because he sort of achieved the American dream, which is just class mobility in general. I mean, especially nowadays with the cost of living. Very few people can go from living in a mobile home in their lifetime to being cemented as a community member in an upper class gated community. So he hit that point and I think the material obsessions were his way of holding on to what that meant to him like internally. And you see this all the time. People hit the lottery. Rappers get a bunch of money. They spend it more on like material items because. Because they have a sort of imposter syndrome in general. Because they didn't grow up in the same way that their peers did. Because most people who are rich grew up rich. There's very little crossover. And so I felt like he felt it was a huge blow to his ego and also. Yeah, self perception and self narrative to be foreclosed upon.

[Andrew Callahan]

Are you still in touch with Kelly? Is he happy his guy's back in the White House now?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I mean, he's actually pretty excited about the film. A lot of people look at the end of the film and they think like, oh my God, he must feel so bad about it, you know, but at the end of the day, there is a lot of small victories that have been secured throughout the process of the film, like him not caring so much about Bill Joyner, which is his boogeyman, evil predatory leather guy that he claims ruined his life. Him not caring about Bill by the end is a huge strive forward. If you consider that in the opening scene of Planned Parenthood, he's almost like passing out from anger, yelling about Bill. So I mean, it may not be that many people we want. Yeah, he's never met. And you know, I'm being sued by Bill right now, which sucks. So I. But I also haven't met Bill either.

[Andrew Callahan]

Wow. So more. There's more story to unfold there. Just with you versus Bill Joyner. Maybe you'll be the next one. Like Bill Joyner ruined my life.

[Emily]

Now next time you're on Andrew, it's just going to be you talking about Bill Joyner.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It remains to be seen.

[Andrew Callahan]

There was one other thing I wanted to ask you about, Andrew. If we could put F1 up on the screen. You put out a very like. Like pretty aggressive Post here about Elon Musk, none of which I disagree with. But in any case, it felt like a little bit of a break from the way you normally approach things because a lot of times you sort of let your work and the characters you follow speak for themselves. And I just was curious what led you to take this more aggressive approach. And after having watched the documentary, actually it made me wonder if, if that was part of your evolution to make being more directly personally outspoken.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, I mean, a little. Just like Elon Musk has been doing like Nazi dog whistle stuff on Twitter for like five or six months now. I know this because I grew up on 4chan, like back in the day, back the pre censorship free Internet when like half the people were Nazis and half the people were anarchists, like back in the day. But it was like either you were part of Anonymous or you were like a seriously like, like Charlottesville person. And so I know that he's been doing these like weird, not even dog whistles, just like straight up following Nazi accounts, reposting Nazi shit. And then when he did that, I don't know, I just got triggered. I kind of felt bad when I posted it because I'm supposed to be like neutral and maintain composure. But that was for sure a Hitler salute. And it's, you know, it's a Hitler salute not just because of the obvious body language, but because the guy has been paying homage to like Nazi ideology and accounts on X for the past like six to eight months. And so. But the comments are crazy. So many people are like going to bat for Elon. They're like, he's just giving his heart out to the people. I was like, dude, if you give your heart out to the people, you go like this. Appreciate you guys. Thank you guys. Heart goes out to you. You don't do this Sig Heil. But you know, I think we're in this era where you know, he could do it and say Sig Heil. I don't think people would care. They'd find out a way to rationalize it and be like, dude, he's just so autistic. You don't know if you met an autistic person, but they're always hailing Hitler, I guess.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. Have, have you considered you're just being ableist right now?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Andrew, Steve, now, now, now the. What's it called? The Sights are on Me?

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, that's right.

[Emily]

Yeah, I was just like, that's the thing with. We're all like downstream of 4chan culture now that people who are not Being ironic get away with the shield of irony. And in some fairness, it actually does make it hard to. It doesn't mean that irony trolling is right, but it does make it hard to sometimes decode. But I guess Andrew, having spent time on 4chan, you speak the language probably better than most.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I definitely do. And not to mention, he's not from the United States and he has a lot to say about migrants coming here and ruining shit. Whereas this guy is from South Africa, of all places, the most racist place that ever exists in the history of the world. And he's coming here and he's manipulating information. That seems pretty treasonous and like some foreign interference to me. And it's just crazy to think that Trump ran his whole campaign on getting the deep state bureaucracy out of office, and now it appears that he has, like, a private council of tech oligarchs backing him entirely. So it appears that the deep state was elected.

[Andrew Callahan]

Well, I personally appreciate the new outspoken mode of Andrew Callahan, so I hope we hear more of it. And of course, always look forward to your work. Tell people where they can watch Dear Kelly.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You guys can watch Dear [e-mail] for the low rental cost of $5. Or if you're feeling generous, you can buy it forever for $15.55.

[Andrew Callahan]

It's worth it. And he's got some lawsuit costs against Bill Joyner, so help him out with that, guys.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Shout out to Bill. Shout out to Kelly. Shout out to Breaking Points.

[Andrew Callahan]

Thanks, Andrew. Great to talk to you. Thank you so much.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Appreciate you guys.

[Andrew Callahan]

All right. Really interesting getting to talk to Andrew. I really did. I found the film very thought provoking.

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah. You enjoyed it too, right?

[Emily]

Oh, my gosh, yeah. Yeah, I did. And I actually, one of the things, I know you talked a little bit to Andrew about what moved you, but one of the things that really was, this isn't a spoiler. He just ends up becoming very emotionally involved in Kelly's life and weirdly, like, close with him.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yes.

[Emily]

That surprises you towards the end of the film. It's not a spoiler. I really recommend people watch it play out because that experience as a viewer is really compelling.

[Andrew Callahan]

Yeah, it was interesting to hear Andrew talk about that. That was something he really had to learn as a documentarian. That, that, that took a very emotional. I mean, he's. Andrew's really young. Right. That was like a real emotional toll on him and a learning for him through this process. But in any case, I hope you guys enjoyed the show today. Definitely. Check out the documentary. Sagar is supposed to be back tomorrow, so he will be in this chair and Emily Ryan will be here on Wednesday. So you got all normal shows, normal shows planned for the week in any case. Hope you guys have a fantastic day and I will see you back here tomorrow.

[Arnaud Bertrand]

Amazon One Medical Presents Painful Thoughts I.

[Emily]

Could catch anything sitting in this doctor's waiting room. Okay, just wiped his runny nose on.

[Sagar Enjeti]

My jacket and the guy next to me sitting in a pool of perspiration.

[Emily]

Insists on sharing my armrest. Next time, make an appointment with an.

[Krystal Ball]

Amazon One medical provider.

[Andrew Callahan]

There's no waiting and no sweaty guy.

[Arnaud Bertrand]

Amazon One Medical Healthcare just got less painful.

[Krystal Ball]

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