← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
1/27/26: Trump Retreats In MN, Judge Showdown Over ICE, Trump Forgets Word Alzheimer's
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- [00:00]
Ryan Grim
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
Public Ad Sponsor
Guaranteed Human support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It's IT screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures hey.
- [01:15]
Krystal Ball
This is US Olympic gold medalist Tara Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.
- [01:20]
Guest Advertisers / Promo Voices
As athletes, our lives are about having.
- [01:21]
Krystal Ball
A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust. So when it came to getting the best mortgage, we chose PennyMac. PennyMac is pro proud to be the.
- [01:29]
Guest Advertisers / Promo Voices
Official mortgage provider of Team USA and.
- [01:32]
Krystal Ball
You learn more at pennymac.com PennyMac Loan Services, LLC equal housing lender NMLS ID 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act. Conditions and restrictions may apply.
- [01:44]
Guest Advertisers / Promo Voices
Sometimes all we want is more of the same, like another round of golf played from a channel with 24. 7 coverage. Another look at the garden and the deer as they pick their way through it. Another Taco Tuesday followed by a Whatever's in the Fridge Wednesday. And to get more of the same, all we need is a little help with adaptable care plans from qualified compassionate caregivers matched to your family's needs. Home Instead can help you and your passions stay home no matter what's on your horizon. Visit home instead online for a better what's Next?
- [02:14]
Krystal Ball
Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.
- [02:15]
Ryan Grim
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
- [02:23]
Krystal Ball
This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [02:29]
Ryan Grim
So if that is something that's important, important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com Become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited ad, free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [02:39]
Krystal Ball
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breakingpoints.com Good morning, everybody. Happy Tuesday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal?
- [02:53]
Ryan Grim
Indeed we do. Trump retreating somewhat, at least in Minneapolis. Big developments there that we'll break down for you. We also have Kyle Cheney. He is a political analyst for Politico, has been following all of the legal developments very closely. Some significant decisions that have been made that are pending as well. So he'll break that down for us. Also got a little bit of Trump health speculation. Not a great moment for him in a recent interview. So we'll dig into that as well. We've got some economic news, dollar crashing, gold spiking and then also crashing. Not sure what's going on there. Bunch of housing start cancellations. So some troubling signs there. TikTok going full censorship, although they are blaming it on a data outage. We will sort through fact and fiction on that one and see if we can figure out what is going on. And Ahmed Khan, the frontline humanitarian and philanthropist, also executive producer actually of the Voice of Hindra Job, is going to join us to talk about the latest with regard to the Gaza Board of Peace and what the reality on the ground is there right now. So bunch of stuff to get to this morning.
- [03:55]
Krystal Ball
Yes, that's right. Thank you to everybody who has been supporting the show. As Ryan and I mentioned yesterday, covering very controversial things like we are right now is basically just demonetization. Hell, we don't care because the vast majority of our revenue comes from you, our subscribers. So if you can support Our show, breaking points.com it enables our journalism, Ryan Grimm obviously being able to just break the news of that new angle on the shooting immediately here on our channel without having to worry about monetary concerns. Also for our premium subscribers, we're aware that there's some sort of issue on Spotify video. We are working with the Spotify team and with locals and all of that to make sure that is resolved as soon as possible. Just wanted to make sure though, that you're not crazy. We're, we're figuring it out and so we will get there. But yes, Crystal, why don't we go ahead and jump into this. Huge developments in Minneapolis, Trump backing down, sidelining potentially, Mr. Bevino.
- [04:46]
Ryan Grim
Yes. So Greg Bevino has been the aggressive face of the Minneapolis occupation, in particular Chicago, as well as the, what do they call them? Commander at large of the Border Patrol. Let's go and put this up on the screen. This news broke yesterday. Bavino is being removed from that position. Now, they are not firing him entirely. He's going back to his old post in California. But Tom Homan, who is the quote, unquote, border czar, is being brought in as well. No, Tom Homan is not exactly like a shrinking violet, not exactly a dove on these matters. But interestingly, within the administration, there's been a bit of a turf battle, which we've talked about before, soccer, between cbp, Customs and Border Patrol, and ice. Contrary to the, I mean, public perception, CBP is actually more insane than ICE is. And they were the ones who were in favor of, and Bevino in particular, these incredibly showy, aggressive, made for TV moments. So, for example, that raid on the Chicago apartment, including the helicopters rappelling in, just complete insanity. That was cbp. Reportedly, it's a CBP agent or multiple agents who were the ones who killed Alex Pretty. So in any case, Bevino being removed. Tom Homan coming in. Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowski, according to this reporting. Also, their jobs are at least somewhat shaky, their position somewhat in doubt, as Trump clearly tries to, you know, tries to clean up what has become a massive political crisis for him.
- [06:22]
Krystal Ball
What is so striking to me about this is how discont, like how completely discordant Trump is for many of his defenders, including in his administration. So, for example, Mac, why don't we go. And the next one up on the screen, Trump describing his phone call with Governor Tim Walsh of Minnesota. I mean, in this one, you can just see so clearly that Trump is trying to strike a very, very different tone. He says, Governor Tim Walls called me with requests to work together with respect to Minnesota. It was a very good call. We actually seem to be on similar wavelength. And, you know, talking about this as the governor very respectfully understood that and I will be speaking to him in the near future. He was happy with Tom Homan going to Minnesota. And so he also, though you see in Tim Walsh's statement something a bit similar. Governor Walsh had a productive call with President Trump today. The governor made the case that we need impartial investigations. The Minneapolis shooting, that we need to reduce the number of federal agents, the President agreed he would talk to Department of Homeland Security about ensuring Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension is able to conduct an independent investigation, as would ordinarily be in the case. The president also agreed to look into the reducing the number of federal agents in Minnesota and working with the state in a more coordinated fashion on immigration enforcement regarding violent criminals. So you can see very clearly in that and the next one, Mac, if we can, Trump's announcement of Tom Homan. This was I actually think the most significant one because as you said, there's been a bit turf war inside of the administration between Kirsten, Kirsten, Corey Lewandowski and Tom Homan. So as you said, Tom Homan is not some shrinking violet, but fundamentally, and Ryan even talked about this yesterday when he noted Tom Homan's response to the Renee Goode shooting. He didn't immediately come out and say anything. He's like, look, we need to wait for a process. And it's because at the end of the day, like, he's a cop. Like, this is somebody who worked under the Obama administration, for example. And yes, he definitely has like, strongly held political views, but is also somebody who at least reportedly has wanted to take a very different tactic whenever it comes to deportation and specifically trying to focus on criminals and people with violent history, existing detainers, which he has been arguing with Lewandowski and Kirsty Gnome is not only more efficient but, you know, does not invite the same public backlash. So at the very least you can say that this is a massive change of tactic because not only does Bevino lose his job, he's going back to San Diego reportedly. But many of the agents who were with him have been ordered out of the state of Minnesota. They even locked Bavino out of his own Twitter account. He's obviously been death penalty in this administration. Yeah, that's right. The penalty in his ministries. But you know, Bavino is leaking to these like right wing journalists, people like Nick Sorter and others. I mean, he's clearly out of control. And he, he, not only that though, he completely lost any credibility he had in the immediate aftermath with that press conference that we talked about yesterday. I mean, he straight up lied, he talked about brandishing and then adopted this new like liberal gun control language about oh, semi auto. What did he say he wanted to massacre law enforcement or, you know, very clear. It's just. And so, yeah, look, look, Trump is many things. He understands television at the very least. And so watching this, you know, everyone from Fox News to msnbc, you know, there's. I can't find a single national personality on cable television where Trump is liable to be watching that is in any way supportive of the way that Bevino and Kirsten Home have handled this entire situation.
- [10:07]
Ryan Grim
Fox News just mostly avoided talking about it and instead went straight to like the rioters. But, you know, there was some significant right wing dissent this time, different than after Renee Good was killed, where there was a real circling of the wagons. And so, you know, in terms of the rhetoric, the PR push after Alex Pretty was shot, you had Bevino, you had Kristi Noem and you had Stephen Miller and you had, by the way, J.D. vance, who were all sounding the same notes. This is a domestic terror, terror, terrorist. This was an would be assassin. He was planning a massacre. They went as hard in the paint on this one as they did with Renee Good because they thought, and understandably so, that that is what Trump would want to see and that that is what he would reward. But even if you go back to the Renee Good killing, look, I mean, just to be clear, this is not to absolve Trump of anything. This is his administration. Just like a little bit over a week ago, he was tweeting how there's going to be retribution paid to Minneapolis, et cetera. But even with Renee Good killing, Trump went hard in the paint at first. And then the New York Times actually showed him the video and he had clearly not seen it yet and he moderated his rhetorical stance. So here you have, you know, all of these crazy lackeys who go same, you know, just as hard in the pain. She's he's a domestic terrorist. He was asking for it. He's a would be assassin. He was planning maximum damage. He was planning a massacre. Trump sees the video and critically, I think sees the backlash from some Republicans because he doesn't really care what liberals think. From some Republicans who are saying, I don't know about this one realizes this has gotten out of control and starts to try to at least throw someone under the bus and make it look like he is tactically adjusting. Now we will see whether there's a real tactical adjustment on the ground or whether it is just lip service and pr. But one other thing that you and I both noted from some of the reporting, there was apparently, I think New York Times had this. There was apparently a big meeting with Kristi Noem, Corey Lewandowski that no one asked for. Susie Wiles was there. Other top aides were there. You know who was not there was Stephen Miller. And this is as much his baby as anything else. So the fact that he was iced down of that conversation, I guess, no pun intended, I think is also pretty significant. Stephen Miller is a deeply ideological figure. He truly, I think, sees himself waging this sort of ethno nationalist war. Now, Trump is happy to do that as it serves him politically, but he is not as ideologically a zealot as Stephen Miller is on this. And he has even, you know, teased Stephen Miller about how obsessed he is with like the ethnic characteristics of the country, etc. So that was noteworthy to me as well, that perhaps Stephen Miller is becoming somewhat isolated now. Do I think that he's going to be on the outs? Do I think he's going to leave, lose his. No. Because he's been such a loyalty soldier for Trump because he's involved in so many facets of this administration that they actually call him the prime Minister, including. He is deeply involved in a bunch of these foreign policy decisions, which also have been terrible. So I don't think he's going to like lose his job, but perhaps he's lost a little bit of standing with regard to Trump since he has been the one like aggressively pushing this direction.
- [13:24]
Krystal Ball
Trump, remember, loyalty for him only works one way. And so he may not sideline you, but if you start to create problems for him, you're done. And he also, Trump is non ideological in many ways in that he will literally contradict himself on it, like immediately if he wants to. So, for example, I mean, last week he was talking about how Tim Waltz and Jacob Frey are criminals. Look, a three. Let's put this one up here on the screen. He says, I just had a very good telephone conversation with Mayor Jacob Frey of Minneapolis. Lots of progress is being made. Tom Homan will be meeting with him tomorrow to continue the discussion. Thank you for your attention to this matter. President Donald J. Trump. I mean, it is just completely different than we had seen. But then finally, Crystal, what was cr. What was really the most remarkable to me, and this is the ultimate like, shiving, is Caroline Levitt and the way that she handled the Bevino question by basically saying, look, he's a great guy, but Mr. Homan's gonna be running point. I think if we could cue that sod up just so people can watch. Like, this is what it really looks like in Washington terms, to be not only sidelined, but to be politely, like, stabbed in the front. Front in many ways.
- [14:36]
Ryan Grim
Yeah. Here, let's take a listen. Going to Minnesota, is Gregory Bovino also going to remain in Minnesota overseeing these ice operations?
- [14:44]
Guest Advertisers / Promo Voices
Mr. Bovino is a Wonderful man and.
- [14:47]
Ryan Grim
He'S a great professional. He is going to very much continue.
- [14:50]
Guest Advertisers / Promo Voices
To lead customs and border patrol throughout.
- [14:53]
Krystal Ball
And across the country.
- [14:53]
Guest Advertisers / Promo Voices
Mr. Homan will be the main point of contact on the ground in Minneapolis.
- [14:57]
Ryan Grim
And that was before we got the official news that he had actually been demoted. Now, Trisha McLaughlin came out and posted something that was kind of confusing, saying, no, he's not being demoted, etc. But I mean, the bottom line is he's being pulled from Minneapolis and Homan is being sent in. So that kind of tells you everything you need to know. And then there was. There's one more, I think, moment from Caroline Levitt that's worth playing here where she get gets asked about Noam's rhetoric that this act was an act of domestic terrorism from Alex Pretty. And she says, well, I haven't heard the president characterize him that way. So refusing to sort of back up that rhetoric, which was also very noteworthy. And again, all before we got all of the news about, you know, about Bovino being demoted, et cetera. Let's take a listen to that.
- [15:45]
Krystal Ball
Secretary Noem said Alex Preddy committed an act of domestic terrorism. Stephen Miller labeled Pretty a domestic terrorist. Does the president agree with them?
- [15:53]
Guest Advertisers / Promo Voices
Look, as I've said, I have not heard the President characterize Mr. Freddie in that way. However, I have heard the president say he wants to let the facts in the investigation lead itself. Was he alarmed to hear his top.
- [16:04]
Krystal Ball
Officials is referring to him in that way, rushing to that judgment?
- [16:07]
Ryan Grim
Thanks, Caroline.
- [16:08]
Krystal Ball
On Stephen.
- [16:09]
Ryan Grim
So there you go. Refused to, to back up that characterization of Alex Pretty. Very different approach than Noam and Lewandowski. And, you know, Noam and Lewandowski, by the way, who are heavily rumored to have, you know, have an affair and be. Yeah, allegedly.
- [16:27]
Krystal Ball
Can't confirm.
- [16:28]
Ryan Grim
We can't personally confirm, but reporters have confirmed it. I mean, this has been reported out. In any case, they're in league together. And even outside of this completely insane and extremely dangerous approach, which has been utterly rejected by the American people across the board, they've also operated in a deeply corrupt manner. Now, that is nothing unusual in this administration. In fact, Tom Holman, what was his whole scandal, he took like a bag of cash to promise some contracts to some company, whatever. They're all deeply corrupt. But there has been an incredible amount of self dealing there as well. Not to mention. And you know, no one loves being in front of the camera. And that works for Trump until it doesn't. So I don't know, I'm a bit skeptical of the reporting that they may actually lose their jobs. I'm curious what you think about that, Sagar, but certainly the fact that they had this long meeting, that they are now being in effect overruled and Tom Homan put in instead, certainly reflects a changing of power positions within the administration.
- [17:28]
Krystal Ball
I don't think they'll lose their jobs. What I've been told is that one of the things Trump hated the most about his first term was all the cycling through various cabinet officials. And he said it caused too much chaos. And so he's extremely remember even the Mike Waltz situation. Mike Waltz, literally an idiot and still was able to hang on his job for two months. And even then it's not like he was fired. He was just, you know, semi demoted to UN Ambassador. Kind of the way that this went with Greg Bevino, I do not think that she will lose her job, but that's not the same thing as losing power in the administration. And that's basically what has happened here.
- [17:59]
Ryan Grim
So I think turn into Tulsi Gabbard where it's like, you still got your job.
- [18:03]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, you technically have a job, but you know, you don't do anything anymore. And by the way, you know, to your point, one of the things that apparently Homan, you know, got some heat over is he was like, hey Kirsten, why are you spending a quarter billion dollars on an ad campaign for DHS which heavily features yourself? I'm sure you have seen that as well. I think I was like riding around on horses at some point.
- [18:24]
Ryan Grim
I mean, yeah, right.
- [18:25]
Krystal Ball
I was watching Fox News at some point and I saw this for work, you know, not for pleasure. And see this thing come up of DHS where it was Kirsty Gnome encouraging self deportation. And I was like, I'm pretty sure this is just an ad for yourself because what illegal immigrant is watching Fox News? You know, I was like, who exactly is this intended to? And I was like, oh, but it is vintage boomers.
- [18:52]
Ryan Grim
Yes. In those contracts, not only are they very self serving in terms of, you know, she gets to play dress up and ride around on a horse, which is something she loves to do. They also went to a connected entity, most of that money to connected consulting firm. And that's where the corruption, one of the corruption scandals comes in as well. You know, someone floated this too. And listen, Trump is so obsessed with optics. It's really the only thing that he like fully cares about and understands. Greg Mavino like out there cosplaying like some SS warrior, you know, with his stupid coat and marching around little short guy and then he's got his glasses that make him look like a, you know, middle aged lesbian and gets up there, another press conference. I mean, I'm sorry, Trump cares about this shit. And so like I, you know, it wouldn't surprise me if he just didn't like the look of this guy, didn't like his, his vibe and the way he handled the press and the way he presented. You know, I mean that's not just something that Trump would really care about, whether that's, you know, however you feel about that.
- [19:50]
Krystal Ball
But the thing is, it's not just his look. He's an idiot. Like, he's not even idiot is he's a liar. And it's like not only a liar, but, you know, took things to such an insane degree immediately after words that you're like, whoa, like this. The credibility of this is shot beyond shot, especially whenever it comes to the Alex Preddy shooting. And that's what I think that he just cannot stomach is, you know, for Trump, you know, I'm not even really sure he doesn't care about the liberal stuff because it's not to that he doesn't look, he doesn't politically care. But there's a difference in the rhetoric and in the way that you talk. And fundamentally I do think like this one, there's no defense, zero. They killed this guy after they took his gun away and then they lied about it. And now their only defense is that they're like, oh, well, you know, you shouldn't have a gun on your person. Trump is not a moron. Like, at the very least he can understand. You know, look, I'm sure the nra, the goa, the Gun owners of America, all those other people, he's going to be aware of that because they're also all over t and they should be. They're the people out there like, hey, oh, hold on a second. Like we're not talking about high capacity magazines from a Republican administration or the idea that just having a gun on your person makes you a domestic terrorist, you know, criminal threat. They like, this is so completely insane the way that Greg Bovino handled it that, you know, look, in a normal time, like this guy doesn't just lose his job. Like there's a whole other set of things that are going to come with that. But I just think that for him, like when he's, when Trump and all of them has watching this on cable tv, so yes, Fox News immediately, don't forget like Trey Gowdy, Maria Bartriomo, if you Watched her show on Sunday. She was very critical. A lot of these people actually have been. So I think that that was a big, a big step. Now look, I'm not, you know, saying things may change all that much. You never know with this administration.
- [21:47]
Ryan Grim
You generally know that is the thing is, I think Bevino is completely psychotic and the psychological profile of this man would be something to, to consider. But, and, and Noem and Lewandowski, Stephen Miller, like, these are revolting char characters, there's no doubt about it. But I think it's also true that Trump is looking for a scapegoat here because, and this will be a good transition to our guest Kyle Cheney, who's the, the legal analyst for Politico. If you look at the entire immigration operation it is all about, it is a systematic flouting of the law. You know, we talked about the, the warrants, them just being like, yeah, we don't need warrants to bust into your home. It's not a one off. Right. There has been a systematic approach that has been led by the Stephen Millers and Kristi Noemes and Corey Lewandowskis and Greg Bevinos of the world, completely signed off and sanctioned by Donald Trump to the extent that he's, you know, with it in order to pay attention to any of this. And so I think it's just important to keep things in perspective that clearly this is a retreat with regard to Minneapolis and with this particular situation on the ground. Does this, this, does this indicate a broader shift overall in their immigration approach? I am skeptical of that and we will definitely have to wait and see.
- [23:01]
Krystal Ball
I, I last word on this. I think it could be possible. The reason why is, you know, what they're all telling Trump, of course it's not your fault, sir, but this is a distraction from all of your other great accomplishments like Venezuela or any of this. And yeah, they're like, oh, well, we just got to go back to stealing Venezuelan oil and bombing Iran. This is literally what Lindsey Graham told him on the phone. Not joking. Yeah, as of, that's right, as of 48 hours ago. But what that at the very least means is that I think that there is a vibe in the administration, not, not just a policy vibe, but of like, we should push the max. And what Trump is kind of saying is like, no, you're going to get me in trouble right now. And when that happens, you are going to immediately become the scapegoat and you're going to be fired. So I could see it having that type of effect in the government. Again, it is way way too early to say and it's not like you can just erase what the whole last year year has looked like and so that's a good transition. To our guest Kyle Chaney.
- [23:58]
Public Ad Sponsor
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, LLC SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures hey.
- [25:09]
Krystal Ball
This is US Olympic gold medalist Tara Davis Woodhull and I'm US Paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.
- [25:14]
Guest Advertisers / Promo Voices
As athletes, our lives are about having.
- [25:16]
Krystal Ball
A clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust. So when it came to getting the best mortgage, we chose PennyMac. PennyMac. PennyMac is proud to be the official.
- [25:24]
Guest Advertisers / Promo Voices
Mortgage provider of Team USA and you.
- [25:26]
Krystal Ball
Learn more at pennymac.com PennyMac Loan Services, LLC equal housing lender NMLS ID 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act. Conditions and restrictions may apply.
- [25:38]
Guest Advertisers / Promo Voices
Sometimes all we want is more of the same. Like another round of golf played from a channel with 247 coverage. Another look at the garden and the deer as they pick their way through through it another Taco Tuesday followed by a Whatever's in the Fridge Wednesday. And to get more of the same, all we need is a little help with adaptable care plans from qualified compassionate caregivers matched to your family's needs. Home Instead can help you and your passion stay home no matter what's on your horizon. Visit home instead online for a better what's next.
- [26:09]
Krystal Ball
Joining us now is Kyle Chaney. He is the senior legal affairs reporter for Politico. Good to see you, Kyle. Thank you so much for joining us.
- [26:16]
Kyle Cheney
Good to be with you both, Kyle.
- [26:18]
Krystal Ball
So a lot of legal developments happening now with respect to Minneapolis and Minnesota. Let's go and put this first tear sheet up here on the screen. Trump and Bondi statements fuel the legal case against a Minnesota surge. At a hearing Monday, a judge focused on the letter the attorney general sent. Can you give us an update here on the legal arguments in the case as there's a new effort by Minnesota, Minnesota authorities to stop the ICE operations in their state? State, yeah.
- [26:46]
Kyle Cheney
This is the most significant and maybe the most extreme legal effort we're seeing, which is to basically by the state government to say we want to end Operation Metro Surge altogether. This is just, you know, you can't not entirely kick ICE out of the state, but kick this stepped up operation out. And what that means and how that works in a legal and constitutional sense is really complicated and kind of new territory. And but what you saw there, what you flagged is that the judge who is considering this was kind of alarmed that, you know, you have this letter from Pam Bondi that says you want the surge to end, do these three things. And she lays out three policy demands, including things like, you know, giving us your SNAP data, giving us your voter roll information, things that have nothing to do with the immigration problem that the administration is purporting to resolve here. And so the judge is saying you're kind of making it explicit that this surge may be about coercing policy, which, that's, that's a red line you can't cross. And so that's where the legal, you know, the legal fight is. And I think the real issue is if the judge decides that it is illegal, what can she actually do about it as a single district judge, say, oh, the administration can't, you know, enforce immigration law? Well, that's, that's kind of an easier thing to say out loud than to actually do in practice. And what's the line? So that's, it's very complicated.
- [28:05]
Krystal Ball
Got it.
- [28:05]
Ryan Grim
Yeah. And so from your reporting, it seems like the two things that really gave the stimulus state something to work with here was that letter from Pam Bondi and also Trump posting that, you know, retribution was coming to, to Minnesota or to Minneapolis. And so that gave them more of a case to work with. And you also mentioned this kind of harkens back to some of the Obamacare rulings where a part of it, the Medicaid expansion piece, the mandatory Medicaid expansion piece was struck down under the same theory that you're basically compelling states. You're using threats of pulling funding and compelling states to push forward policy. So could you lay that out a little bit, that connection there? And, you know, how strong you think the. The state's case is at this point?
- [28:51]
Kyle Cheney
Yeah, I started at POLITICO 14 years ago to cover that exact case. But, yeah, it.
- [28:59]
Krystal Ball
It.
- [29:00]
Kyle Cheney
You know, that's. That's sort of the. The centerpiece here is that the Supreme Court ruled very clearly that the federal government cannot use the sort of cudgel of funding. Pulling funding to force states to adopt policies that those states don't want to adopt. And so now the federal government does have a role in sort of incentivizing things that it prefers, policies it prefers, but it can't. You know, if the Supreme Court says you can't use funding as a cudgel, what the state is saying is you definitely can't use, like, a militarized force of federal agents and, you know, know, wreaking havoc on the streets to. To cause the same result. That's. That's worse. That's much further over the line than a funding threat, in the state's view. And so, you know, again, if the judge decides. Yeah, I agree with you. Then the question is, how do you. What's the remedy? And that's a bigger problem. But. But I think that's where, you know, so the judge is at least deciding now. Does she agree with the state's view on that?
- [29:53]
Krystal Ball
Got it. Can we put the next one. I just set you up, Mack, on the screen. Kyle, you were reporting this morning that the judge, the chief federal job in Minnesota has ordered the head of ICE to appeal personally in court Friday and threatened him with contempt and for the agency's repeated violation of court orders. The court's patience is at an end. Kyle, can you just break that down for us?
- [30:17]
Kyle Cheney
Yeah, this is sort of a big moment. You know, Judge Schultz, he's the. He's the chief judge, George W. Bush appointed judge, and has already had this clash with the administration over this attempt to arrest Don Lemon and the church protesters. And, you know, so he's clearly at a boiling point with the administration already over the. Over this. But what he's saying is our courts have been inundated. We've been flooded with these immigration cases, emergency petitions, people who've been arrested by ICE during this surge, and we're finding over and over again that their arrests and detentions have been illegal using a sort of new interpretation of the law the administration has adopted in recent months. And what he's saying here is we keep ordering you to release people, and you're not doing it. We're getting emergency secondary petitions saying you haven't released this person or you shipped them to Texas, despite our order saying keep them here in Minnesota. And we've reached. That's sort of the tipping point now is it's happened so many times and our courts are flooded with these cases right now. And so he's ordering Todd Lyons, head of ice, to come in directly, personally in court and saying, if you, you know, you answer can't answer questions to my satisfaction, I might hold you in contempt. And that's sort of the, I guess, the most confrontational we've seen, you know, I guess really anywhere. These petitions are flooding the. Flooding the courts all over the country, but they're particularly acute in Minnesota. But now because of the surge, I.
- [31:43]
Ryan Grim
Mean, what does that mean to like, what does it precisely mean if they did hold him in contempt? Because we've also seen, you know, during the Kilmar Abrego Garcia situation, during the seacot situation, there was the possibility of the various government officials being held in contempt. We had in Chicago, Greg Bevino specifically was called out for any number of lies. I mean, this is incredibly systematic. So do you think it. Even if this guy is held into. In contempt, do you think that would make a difference to them? Do you think that would change their behavior? Is it any sort of severe penalty?
- [32:21]
Kyle Cheney
It's a great question. I mean, the judge can sort of decide the penalty, you know, and then that can include, you know, again, I don't think. I don't think that happens on the spot. And I think to your point, you know, there's a lot of frustration out there that, you know, judges are keep saying our orders are being violated, we need to have accountability here. And that accountability takes forever. And then it usually fizzles in some way or, you know, in the case of the Alien Enemies act that you mentioned, the CCOT situation, the appeals court stops Judge Boasberg from continuing his contempt proceedings and, you know, for months. And then when they allowed him to continue it, he started it. He started down the path again, and they stopped him again. And so it does feel like there is. It's this sort of imperfect and clunky method because it never, it almost never gets used against federal government officials, that it's sort of there as a. As a last resort for the courts. But, you know, We've never seen an administration taking so far that the courts are actually saying, we need to actually utilize this rarely used tool. And now they're seeing all the sort of rust or the challenges with actually making that happen. But they can make things very uncomfortable, at least for the administration, by hauling people in. Again, the threat is a pretty big deal on its own. And, yeah, if the judge is motivated, he can say. Unless some higher court stops him, he can say, say, you know, yeah, we, we can. You know, whether it's, again, the punishment is. Is tricky. You can't. Can you throw someone in jail? Can you find them as a government official? It's, you know, they have to cross that bridge when it gets there.
- [33:50]
Krystal Ball
Right.
- [33:51]
Ryan Grim
Well, in that systematic nature of what you're talking about is something that you have been tracking is what I just had up on the screen. You said you've. You've tracked at least 2300 cases in which federal judges have ruled ICE has illegally detained people without bond or due process. And then you flag one there specifically. I mean, take us through the detail when you say there, you know, these individuals have been detained without bond or due process, that this has been done illegally. Just walk us through what that means and what this looks like for these individuals.
- [34:22]
Kyle Cheney
So it's really complicated, and it's something that. But it traces back to a very specific moment, which is that in July, Director Lyons, who we just talked about, adopted a new interpretation of old immigration laws, things that date back to the mid-90s, in which case, you know, it used to be that when the federal government would encounter someone at the border, they could quickly put them into deportation proceedings and hold them in detention and essentially lock them up while those proceedings were pending. What the Trump administration has done is reinterpret that to say anyone we encounter anywhere in the country, essentially even people who have been here for decades, we actually, not only can we lock them up, we must lock them up. Under our new interpretation of the law, it's mandatory, and they don't get a chance for bond at all. And the courts across the country, writ large, have reacted sort of with horror at this because they're starting to get all these people filing emergency petitions saying, I've lived here for 30 years, no criminal record, a job, a community, my kids are citizens. I've done nothing wrong. And I went into my ICE check in that I do a few times a year, and they arrested me. And judges are saying that, and not only are they arresting me, they're saying, I can't even ask for bond. I can't even go to court and show an immigration judge I'm not a danger to the community. I'm not a flight risk, which is normally the opportunity you have. They're just saying I'm held indefinitely. And so the judges. So the 2300 number you mentioned is how many cases I've been tracking all over the country. That's cases where there have been rulings agreeing that the detention was illegal. These people should either be released immediately or get a bond hearing at a minimum. And there's thousands more that are pending. And again, Minnesota has become sort of the hotbed of these. We're seeing dozens filed every day of these cases and rulings, things again, finding them illegal, these detentions. But it is really a national story.
- [36:15]
Krystal Ball
Kyle, I do want to ask about this chances of that lawsuit on Minnesota that we began with. And then also we began our show kind of talking about Trump backing off, you know, at least in Minnesota, rhetorically, at a legal level, what are the things you look for to back that up, to see a change in posture under Donald Trump? Like, what should we all keep in mind?
- [36:38]
Kyle Cheney
Well, what was interesting was Trump seemed to start backing off in the middle of that hearing. So we're hearing the government argue, you know, the state officials are being, you know, recalcitrant. They're not helping us on immigration policy. And in the middle of that hearing, you have Trump saying, well, I just talked to Governor Walz. We're on the same page now. Everything's getting better. Tom Holm is going out. And so that didn't come up in court. I was curious if someone was going to read it out loud to the judge. Right. But I suspect that, you know, if that's true and if the, if Operation Metro surge sort of recedes, you know, you know, if they start pulling back, it may moot all of these legal cases, you know, and in some cases, in some senses, what everybody wants is rather than get a ruling that might create bad law for one side or the other, let's maybe pull back from the brink and end this in a, in a way that doesn't force in court. So it depends.
- [37:31]
Ryan Grim
The judge would be paying attention to those developments as well. And considering that as she deliberates here.
- [37:37]
Kyle Cheney
So she's not supposed to consider things that happen outside of the record in court. So someone will have to bring it to her and say, hey, this changes things. I mean, she's. But judges are people and they see these things in the news and she might ask them, say, hey, does this change My equation for me, she does seem a little hesitant about weighing into this new terrain of judges.
- [37:56]
Ryan Grim
Didn't she ask for more information or something from the government?
- [37:58]
Krystal Ball
Government?
- [37:59]
Kyle Cheney
She wanted to know how many agents were on the ground and they told her about 3,000. But she was very reluctant to say, I, the district judge can tell the federal government how to enforce immigration law. What's too much? How many agents is too many? Should I be the person telling them that? I don't know. So I think if there's a way for her to say, well, it's over, it's moot, I think that might be her preferred outcome. But it depends on how true the rhetoric really is.
- [38:25]
Krystal Ball
Right? Yeah, that seems to make sense. And then importantly, you were talking there. One of the things that we have seen in previous cases is judges order, let's say ICE or any of that on specific tactics. I saw that the administration had just won a case regarding tactics and protesters. I'm still very, a bit unclear on how that works. So wondering if you could explain that.
- [38:50]
Kyle Cheney
So same judge Kate Menendez, the one who's considering the entire the big piece, also ruled that certain ICE tactics that it had used against demonstrators, you know, retaliatory tactics, essentially she barred them from doing that. So it's how they deploy chemical munitions, how they can draw their service weapons, how they can when they can arrest motorists who aren't breaking any laws, but maybe trailing ICE vehicles. And so her ruling on that was held, was previously held up by the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals when the administration went above her. But then they ruled a second, they issued a second rule of yesterday that just said, you know, we're going to stick by that. We're not going to. After the shooting of Alex Priddy, the state or excuse me, the protesters went back to court and said, hey, maybe we, you could let this judge's order take effect now. And the 8th Circuit still said, no, we're going to keep it on hold in a second.
- [39:47]
Krystal Ball
Okay, that makes sense.
- [39:48]
Ryan Grim
One more thing for you here. There was some leaked video from a detention facility in Baltimore. So Brian Allen here says Baltimore media has reported ICE is keeping detainees here for days even though these cells are supposed to be short term processing only. You can see, you know, migrants who are crowded in no beds, just those silver like, you know, mass distributed blankets and so very miserable conditions. We've heard about miserable conditions in these facilities as well. So put that in in context here too for us, Kyle, because I think this also so speaks to the sort of systematic nature of the approach here, where it's not, you know, it's not a few bad apples, it's not, you know, just in Minneapolis, there is across the board a very aggressive and I would say inhumane approach that flouts the existing law.
- [40:41]
Kyle Cheney
Well, it sort of tells you why some of these detention cases I mentioned are so conscience shocking is when you're pulling people who have been living here for 30 years, doing everything the way they're supposed to and, and litigating their immigration cases in court, then they're being scooped up and thrown into a facility like this, in these overcrowded facilities. There have been legal cases against detention facilities and the conditions. There's a big one in New York where the judge just lit into the administration about these unconstitutional violations of people's and just inhumane violations. And so they have popped up around the country. I think that it's just part of this larger landscape of the real, I guess, the horrors that we're seeing in some of these cases. And I think that that's one of the things that Judge Schiltz was so frustrated about, is you're inundating us. But not only that, you're defying our orders in ways that keep these people locked up beyond when they're legally supposed to be. We're telling you to release them and you're not, and they're stuck in these kinds of facilities. And also, actually, I should mention mentioned members of Congress have been trying to get access to these facilities to see exactly what you just showed in that video. And they've been blocked repeatedly. They're supposed to be able to visit without any advance notice so they can see the conditions as they are. And ICE and DHS has blocked that. And that's a kind of a fight that's proceeding in court right now.
- [42:00]
Krystal Ball
Go ahead.
- [42:01]
Ryan Grim
It was just one last question for you, Kyle. You know, I mean, I look at this and I'm a layperson in terms of the law, I see you're tracking 2300 cases where they violated the law. This memo leak that says, you know, oh, we don't. We can just violate your fourth amendment rights. It's fine. We don't need a warrant. Like all of this, you know, hundreds of years of precedent saying, no, you need a judge to sign off before you bust into some, violently bust into someone's house. We're just throwing that out. Like, what is the check for that? What is the remedy for that? Or can they just do it and, you know, case by case gets litigated and then they Just ignore the judge's ruling. Like how does this get reined in? Is the, is the court system capable in a sense sense of really checking this administration when they are very determined to make their own rules?
- [42:47]
Kyle Cheney
I mean, you've hit on, I think the larger, the sort of meta question of this entire administration, which is that they have taken a tactic not just in immigration context, but in every context of we are going to plow through the boundaries, the limits that previous presidents sort of self imposed or believed applied to them and dare the courts to stop us. And where they can, where the courts push back, they have. And the administration either continues pushing forward again in the immigration context that you mentioned, or in some cases they've been restrained. Especially the administration has made clear, at least for now, that the Supreme Court is where they put all their eggs. If the Supreme Court says no, I guess they will reluctantly accept defeat on something. But for now they're testing the lines with district courts and even appeals courts. And as you said, at some point an administration just has to faithfully uphold and execute the laws. There isn't really a check for that beyond politics. And if you have a problem with that, the way to resolve that is with elections. And that's kind of what Judge Menendez said yesterday is there are other checks beyond me for an administration that you think is considering flagrant lawlessness. It's not just me here in my little courtroom saying stop doing that. There's bigger things that have to happen. Other branches of government that need to step in.
- [44:01]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, kind of calling out Congress. I like that. Kyle, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate you.
- [44:07]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, thank you Kyle. I know you've been busy and your Twitter feed has been invaluable along with your reporting. So I it appreciate Give him a follow. Thank you so much for joining us Kyle.
- [44:17]
Kyle Cheney
Thank you.
- [44:19]
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- [45:29]
Krystal Ball
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- [46:30]
Krystal Ball
All right, it's time now to turn to Donald Trump's health, an issue which was raised a bit at Davos but has burst back onto the scene after he sat down down for an extraordinary interview with New York magazine, trying to defend his health, which gave some quotes which are truly unbelievable. So for those of you who missed it, there were a lot of questions about the president's health after these images from Davos were released. Let's go and put this up here on the screen where we saw a large bruise on his hand, a bruise which appeared to kind of come out of nowhere because the previous day it hadn't had happened. Trump had given a response actually that the bruise itself was a result of aspirin. But yeah, I mean for those of you who are watching, like you could see here, this is pretty serious. Bruce, he said he bumped it on a table. Let's go ahead.
- [47:23]
Ryan Grim
Some people pointed out the bruise was roughly shaped like Greenland did You see that?
- [47:26]
Krystal Ball
Is that true?
- [47:27]
Ryan Grim
The comparison? Yeah.
- [47:28]
Krystal Ball
Wow. Okay. All right. Just like when people would see, like, Jesus in a birth marker in a pancake. That's right. All right, let's go ahead then and play. Jay Hicks explanation on your hand.
- [47:42]
Ryan Grim
Are you okay?
- [47:43]
Kyle Cheney
Very good.
- [47:45]
Krystal Ball
I clipped it on the table, so I put a little. What do they call the cream on it, but I clipped it. I would say take aspirin if you like your heart, but don't take aspirin if you don't want to have a little bruising. You know, if you take the big. I take the big aspirin.
- [48:04]
Ryan Grim
Aspirin.
- [48:05]
Krystal Ball
And when you take the big aspirin, they tell you you bruise. The doctor said, you don't have to take that, sir.
- [48:11]
Kyle Cheney
You're very healthy.
- [48:12]
Krystal Ball
I said, I'm not taking any chances. So anyway, but then that's one of the side effects of taking aspirin, so it's all the big aspirin. I still. I'm unclear as to what the big aspirin is. Doesn't sound great for your gut microbiome, but that's just me. Might be something a little worried about, I guess. Doesn't matter.
- [48:31]
Ryan Grim
Would not. Would not. Approve.
- [48:32]
Krystal Ball
Not RFK Jr. Approved, I can tell you that. NSAIDS. But that big aspirin. NSAIDS, that's a lot of aspirin. But I guess it doesn't matter when you're eating a bunch of Big Macs and burgers. However, look, that was just more of a lead in to this, where I had to get this in the show. Let's put this up here on the screen. New York magazine gets it. Oval Office. Sit down. Because they decided they wanted to write about Trump's health. So we got a couple quotes that we wanted to say for all of you. The superhuman president. A good faith attempt to ascertain the truth about Donald Trump's health. Quote, when the President rests his eyes, Levitt chimed in. He's actively listening. His energy levels are so good that even elite members of the military cannot keep up with his work schedule. Quote, the Marine sentries who stand outside of the Oval Office, they had to request more staff and bring up more Marines because the President is in the Oval Office so much. They've never had to do that before. They had to request more guys to stand by the door because they are running out of men to fill the shift. Quote, he's working harder now than he did in his entire life, even in real estate when he was on the top of the world in New York. But here's the question. Is he working harder now than he did in his first term? Because you would hope that he'd worked just as hard in his first term. However, those are not the craziest actually moments from this interview. Let's go to the next one, shall we? My personal favorite. Here he is. Asked at one point, he's talking about his father. His father apparently had Alzheimer's. I'm gonna read this directly, quote. He had one problem, Trump said. At a certain age, about 86, 87, he started getting. What do you call it? He pointed to his forehead, looked at the press secretary for the word that escaped him. Alzheimer's. Levitt said. Like an Alzheimer's thing. Trump said, well, I don't have it.
- [50:19]
Ryan Grim
Okay?
- [50:21]
Krystal Ball
Not the best, not exactly the interaction I would want. Want when we're talking about Alzheimer's, just me in order to disprove some memory. And then finally, this is so funny. At one point, Trump drags in the White House doctor and. Or, sorry, the press secretary drags in the White House. Dr. Levitt says to the doctor, you worked for the Obamas, didn't you? He says, yes, I did. Jones had, in fact, worked from 2009 to 2018 as a senior medical leader in the White House. At the end of his presidency, Barack Obama, fitness fanatic, rumored to allow himself seven almonds a night, was 55. Who is healthier, Obama or Trump? I asked. Trump stared across the desk, making eye contact with Jones. Jones did not hesitate. President Trump, he said. Trump nodded. There was no sign of a smile, as if there could not have been any other answer to the question. Write that, he said, turning to me.
- [51:19]
Ryan Grim
Oh, my God.
- [51:20]
Krystal Ball
So that's what he demands of his doctors. You know, I will say I remember I kind of fell for this Dr. Psyop in the first administration because. Do you remember who the doctor was? It was Ronnie Jackson.
- [51:30]
Ryan Grim
Ronnie Jackson, yeah.
- [51:31]
Krystal Ball
Right.
- [51:32]
Ryan Grim
And also, I think gets quoted in this piece, by the way.
- [51:34]
Krystal Ball
Right? Of course he does. But here's the thing. Everyone was like, oh, he was Obama's doctor, so, like, he must be fine. And then he left and he became a Republican congressman. And I was like, well, that's kind of weird. You know, they have a Republican congressman who's a former doctor, and so what's going on with these doctors? Like, how can you have such partisan doctors who are in the White House? House. It's a bit strange. I've never met a doctor in my life who would talk like that, ever. Right. These are the most cautious people in the world who will never definitively say anything and then directly compare two people. Say again, I, I know a lot of doctors. I'm Indian. It's cliche. I literally cannot think of a single doctor who would ever talk that way. So, I mean, and it's not like he hand picked. This guy is Obama's doctor.
- [52:15]
Ryan Grim
Like, Obama was much, much younger, right, when he's in the White House. Yeah, he was constantly working at Obama Defender.
- [52:23]
Krystal Ball
But yeah, he was healthy, right?
- [52:24]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, he was thin, he was fit, he was playing basketball. He was very, you know, regimented about his diet, whatever. Like the I. The only thing is that he had smoked in the past. Even that he, you know, quit apparently when he was in the white. Like the idea that Trump is healthier than Obama was in the way. Yeah. And that's the two things that come out of this are, number one, that quote about Alzheimer's, which is just. That is the most unfortunate word to forget get. That you could possibly imagine. Frankly. It's. I relate to it a little bit because I do have those moments now on at times where I'm like, what is that freaking word again? I can, I can relate to it a bit. But then again, I'm not presently United States, nor should I be. So there's that. But the other part is you read some of the quotes from his staff, not just the doctors, from Caroline Levitt, Marco Rubio, everyone they talked to. I mean, truly North Korea level propaganda. He's the most active, he's the most fit. You know, the doctors who tested his heart capacity, they said they don't even need to ever do it again because his heart is so healthy. If he, if he ever dies, it certainly won't be because of his heart. It's unbelievable, the embarrassing, humiliating quotes that were given by his staff in the context of this piece.
- [53:43]
Krystal Ball
Peace.
- [53:43]
Ryan Grim
But of course they know that that's what he wants to hear. Right? It's the, you know, the president's health version of these cabinet meetings that he has where all. They're all like, oh my God, not even Abraham Lincoln could imagine the greatness that you embody. Mr. President, sir, you are so healthy. There has never been anyone healthier in the entire history of the world, et cetera. I mean, that's. The other part is just like the dynamics in that White House are so creepy and disturbing. And the bubble that he has created for himself is wild.
- [54:18]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, I'm, I'm having ChatGPT poll some North Korean state media quotes that were about Kim Jong Il, General Secretary Kim Jong Il is in good health. He is energetically defending the overall affairs of the country. The respected General Secretary is full of vigor and energy, devoting himself day and night to the sacred leader, leadership of the revolution. Despite heavy, heavy. Despite the heavy burden of work for the country and the people, General Kim Jong Il remains strong in body and mind. The Supreme Commander enjoys robust health and continues his tireless on the spot guidance. These are, these are.
- [54:58]
Ryan Grim
To be honest with you, some of the things that were said in this piece go even further than that. Yeah, right.
- [55:03]
Kyle Cheney
Yeah, that's right.
- [55:04]
Ryan Grim
Call him superhuman and be like, he doesn't even need to test his heart anymore. That's how good it is at, you know, almost 80 years old. Old. Like what?
- [55:11]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, well, I mean, what's fascinating to me is also the media angle on this. So for those who don't know, getting a sit down in the Oval is not that easy. Everybody wants one. Okay. So I've had to do this a couple of times. It's a game and you kind of got to sell it. And it is stunning to me that Trump and his press secretary that the way that this guy got in, because remember, you know, the New York Times just went in there. The only reason they got in there is because Trump is obsessed with the New York Times, Times, the Oval Office. Every once in a while, you know, the Wall Street Journal or somebody like that will be able to get a sit down. But it's not all that common in this administration. So the fact is, is that the way this guy got in there is he was like, I want to talk to the President about his health. And of course to Trump, this is the opportunity for him to flex with the doctors and with the press secretary and to talk about how phenomenal he is in the midst of all these questions about, you know, his hand, his health and his aspirin. So even from a media angle, it's amazing because no seasoned comms person would ever tell you to do this. This is surely Trump himself who is obsessed with the questions of his health and painting this picture around it. And the fact is, is not only did it work, you know, on behalf of New York Magazine, but the quotes from this are. I mean, they're just amazing. They really are. Because you also can just see. I encourage you guys to go read it because we can't read it all to you. But, you know, listen to this from Marco Rubio. The guy is too healthy. Rubio said in the White House. Yeah, he's too active. Rubio said, by the way, Rubio's son is a actually a very good football player. Just to give you, just to give you all some context. Rubio, in addition, maybe one of the busiest men in Washington. Still, he took time out of his day to regale me with story about the President's unparalleled memory and attention to detail. Once Trump noticed Rubio's size looked shitty. So at a later meeting, the President presented him with a gift assigned shoebox containing a pair of size 12s. I have them on and they're perfect, he said, pointing to his shiny black dress shoes. Another time, Trump perceived that the chandeliers in the State Department were missing medallions, the ornamental discs that are installed the ceiling. A few days later, Trump called Rubio into his office with dozens of medallion samples. I don't even know how many I need, Rubio recalled. He said, I think you need 12. Sure enough, I try to match it as much as I can. It's just not as natural to me. There's one place in particular Rubio is unable to keep up with the president. Air Force One. Rubio said he needs to get rest on overseas flights. But Trump never naps on the plane. So the Secretary of State, a man tasked with instilling fears in the hearts of our enemies enemies, blah, blah, blah, spends parts mo parts of most flights hiding from the 80 year old man. There is an office with two couches and I usually want to sleep on one of those couches. What I do is I cocoon myself in a blanket, I cover my head and I look like a mummy. I do that because I know that at some point he's going to emerge from the cabin and start prowling the hallways to see who is awake. And I want him to think it is a staffer. And I don't want him to see the Secretary of State on the couch and think, oh, this guy is so weak. Can we just talk about dysfunctional workplaces?
- [58:13]
Ryan Grim
Like this is not toxic workplace. Yeah, can we? Toxic workplace.
- [58:17]
Krystal Ball
Not to be a woke Gen Z employee. This is a toxic work environment. This is a toxic work environment.
- [58:25]
Ryan Grim
I mean, I didn't honestly get that much out of this piece in terms of his actual health.
- [58:29]
Krystal Ball
No, of course. Yeah, that's not the point.
- [58:31]
Ryan Grim
A genuine question. I mean, the, the, the blotches on the hands, which are constant at this point, which he clearly is self conscious about. You know, in a bunch of press conferences, whatever, he'll cover his hand to try to cover it up. He slathers on some kind of poorly conceived makeup that doesn't do anything to hide it. I mean, those things are on there like, all the time. And first we were told it was from shaking hands, it was on the right hand. Now it's on the left hand too. Like, what is going on with that? We see the facial droop. We see him, you know, just being an old man and falling asleep in meetings where. I'm sorry, I'm not.
- [59:01]
Krystal Ball
We can't say. His response.
- [59:02]
Ryan Grim
Actively listening.
- [59:04]
Krystal Ball
No, but remember his response? He said it was three and a half hours. It's boring.
- [59:09]
Ryan Grim
It's boring. I mean, okay, fair, fair enough.
- [59:13]
Krystal Ball
He's right. But you know, sir, you do have the ability to control those meetings. In fact, he, he holds some of the longest meetings on record. For a cab. Like, there's literally no, cabinet meetings are bullshit. They're a formality. You're supposed to meet for 20 minutes, do a camp camera thing. You get the photo, everybody sitting in the White House cabinet room with their fancy chairs. And then everybody just leaves. You're not supposed to sit in there for three and a half hours. It's never happened before. It's extremely uncommon in the history of the White House.
- [59:41]
Ryan Grim
Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know what his health is like. I, you know, some days he looks, I mean, he does. He definitely is showing his age a lot more now than he has in the past. There's no doubt about that. There's days when he gets up there behind the podium, he looks like the speech is like, slow. Certainly his hearing is not what it used to be. You know, the splotches on the hands. There's been times when his walk has been sort of shuffly and not, to me, tired.
- [60:09]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, yeah.
- [60:10]
Ryan Grim
But I mean, he seems much more. Again, yeah, his, his age, so.
- [60:14]
Krystal Ball
No, I, I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying, like, for example, his one.
- [60:17]
Ryan Grim
Year press conference, it was very low energy.
- [60:19]
Krystal Ball
I don't know if you guys watched it. I unfortunately watched the entire thing. He spoke for over an hour 15. His heart was not in it. It was weird. Weird. And he was speaking understated. He's had a couple of these moments where you're like, man, like. And again, look, I covered this guy for years, okay? I've seen him speak in every single different type of environment from low energy to other. And he, he had a certain way of talking when he was bored, but he never usually came off like this, like meandering and very, very. Yeah, just low energy and, and, you know, covered him four straight years in the White House se, you know, three feet away in many of these cases. Cases, he definitely looks different. There's no, there's no doubt about it.
- [60:57]
Ryan Grim
And then there's the obsession with like the physical legacy that he's going to leave. You know, as he clearly he's thinking about end of life. You know, he's wanting to leave his ballroom, he's wanting to leave his arc to Trump. You know, he's wanting to leave like a physical imprint there. So he's thinking about his. What's going to be there after he's gone. So there's that and you know, some of these things. Things like remember when he kept mixing up Greenland and Iceland?
- [61:24]
Krystal Ball
Yes.
- [61:24]
Ryan Grim
Yeah. These are the sort of things that we were gaslit under Biden that like. No, it's just his stutter. Whatever. I mean, I feel like we're being gaslit with him as well of just like. Oh yeah. I mean it. He meant ice based land. He didn't mean Iceland. He meant a land of ice. And clearly like as you age, things start getting jumbled in your head. Head. And he did it repeatedly. It wasn't just like a, you know, one off where if you're talking a lot, you and I both experiences, if you're talking a lot, you're going to insert the wrong word or say the opposite of what you mean or whatever. Like that happens sometimes, but it does seem to be happening more and more frequently that the word is not. He's not able to grab the word he wants, he's using the wrong word, he's mixing things up, etc. So there are some Biden esque, there are some Brandon movies, moments that we have certainly witnessed from this president in Everybody keep an eye on it term.
- [62:18]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Again, keep an eye on it because Trump wanted to do this. It was, it was very. Some of the quotes on this are all a bit crazy. The hand thing, look, it's undeniable. It's weird. You know, people don't just bruise. I don't know about you, I don't bruise, you know, very often. Like it's got to be bad. Very reason right now we're buried under inches of snow. Like it needs to be one of those scenarios where you literally like fall over and hurt yourself really badly.
- [62:43]
Ryan Grim
Well, and the fact it's always in.
- [62:44]
Krystal Ball
The same place and is always on.
- [62:46]
Ryan Grim
The hand does give credence to the idea that he's getting routinely getting some sort of an IV there.
- [62:52]
Krystal Ball
That's an open question. Right. Because everybody remembers about the condition. Remember the. Remember the queen's hand right before she died?
- [62:59]
Ryan Grim
Yeah.
- [62:59]
Krystal Ball
That's what a lot of people. And yeah, I mean, I've gotten IVs in my hands before. It hurts. It always leaves a huge bruise. So, yeah, look, who knows? And that's another thing. You got a doctor like this who, who's talking? I'm like, bro, I'm not gonna believe a damn word that you say if you're gonna talk about no matter who you. This isn't just a Trump thing. I'm like, bro, get out of there. Like, whoever. Whoever becomes the next president, you need to get a new doctor. You can't be having doctors talk like this. Maybe, maybe I'm, you know, I don't know. I. I believed a little bit more impartiality personally, of doctors, but my. My confidence has been shaken.
- [63:45]
Ryan Grim
At cvs, it matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night.
- [63:54]
Krystal Ball
And we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded.
- [63:57]
Ryan Grim
It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and, yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit us@cvs.com or just come by our store.
- [64:15]
Krystal Ball
We can't wait to meet you.
- [64:17]
Ryan Grim
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