12/8/25: Boat Strike Coverup, Tim Dillon Roasts Trump, Layoffs Surge, Somalis Wage Meme War

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode Date: December 8, 2025
Title: Boat Strike Coverup, Tim Dillon Roasts Trump, Layoffs Surge, Somalis Wage Meme War

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Overview

In this episode, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti, joined by Emily for Sagar who is “sick”, tackle a packed news week brimming with controversy and scandal. The show’s core theme is government accountability during turbulent times, with deep dives into the alleged boat strike coverup in the Caribbean, a scathing Tim Dillon rant about the Trump administration, the harsh reality of surging layoffs and struggling farmers, and a surprisingly sharp and hilarious Somali meme response to ICE actions in Minnesota. The tone balances critical analysis and biting humor—a staple of Breaking Points.

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• Boat Strike Coverup (04:00–25:00)
• Tim Dillon Roasts Trump & The Administration’s ‘Performative Cruelty’ (27:15–37:20)
• Layoffs, Farm Bailouts & The Shaky Economy (40:23–54:03)
• Somalis Wage Meme War in Response to ICE Crackdown (65:32–76:52)

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1. Boat Strike Coverup

Main Theme:
Saagar and Krystal scrutinize the legality, rationale, and ethical implications of a controversial U.S. military strike on a suspected drug boat in the Caribbean, highlighting evidence of a possible cover-up and shifting justifications by officials.

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Key Discussion Points

• Tom Cotton’s Defenses & Shifting Rationales [04:12–07:24]:

  • Senator Tom Cotton insisted boat strikes on suspected drug traffickers are justified, making problematic comparisons to counterterrorism laws.
  • Cotton admits “No, I didn’t” when asked if he saw evidence of radio use by boat survivors, undermining a core legal rationale for the strike.
    • Quote: “Well, no, actually didn’t see any signs of them trying to use a radio.” (Tom Cotton, 06:09)

• Legal and Moral Quagmires [06:09–12:41]:

  • Krystal notes the U.S. refusal to provide evidence about who was targeted or why and critiques the use of post-9/11 AUMF (Authorization for Use of Military Force) to justify attacks on drug traffickers in the Caribbean rather than terrorists.
    • Quote: “The idea that we could kill those two guys because they were a threat to the United States is completely insane.” (Krystal Ball, 12:00)

• Alleged Video Cover-Up [17:28–19:27]:

  • David Schuster reports the Navy deleted video evidence from a second boat strike involving survivors—a possible coverup.
  • Democrats led by Rep. Jim Himes demand unedited footage, describing it as “one of the most troubling scenes I’ve ever seen in my time in public service.” (Jim Himes via reporting, 19:03)

• Military ‘Lists’ and Public Justification [15:17–17:11]:

  • The claim that all 11 boat passengers were “on a list of military targets,” described as “bullshit” by Krystal. No public evidence or names released for supposed terrorists.
  • A pattern of government justification through broad, vague listings rather than transparency.

• Public Response and the Impact of Seeing the Video [20:20–23:42]:

  • Saagar argues that visuals of people struggling for their lives (as opposed to just seeing boat explosions) would have a far deeper impact on public empathy and challenge propaganda narratives:
    • Quote: “It’s another thing when you see human beings struggling for their lives and you watch them for 40 minutes and then that decision is taken to murder them.” (Saagar Enjeti, 21:39)

• Closing Thoughts:

  • The operation is called out as “murder” and, at best, a textbook war crime by Krystal.
  • Ongoing bipartisan investigations may force further disclosures.

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2. Tim Dillon Roasts Trump & 'Performative Cruelty'

Main Theme:
Comedian Tim Dillon’s stinging critique is used as a springboard to analyze the Trump administration’s penchant for showmanship and “performative cruelty” in policy—especially on immigration and drug policy.

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Key Discussion Points

• Tim Dillon’s Critique [27:35–28:34]:
  • Dillon claims the administration’s boat strikes and immigration policies are distractions:
    • Quote: “They’re just watching a boat blow up in the middle of the ocean… the only thing left now is performative cruelty.” (Tim Dillon, 28:17)
• Reactions from the Breaking Points Hosts [29:20–31:53]:
  • Krystal and Saagar note Dillon’s theory isn’t unfounded but observe that desires for theatrical shows of power have long existed within Trump circles.
  • Krystal: “I think it makes it 10 times worse that there’s something performative… which I don’t necessarily… it doesn’t make the cruelty less cruel, but the purpose is a performance.” (Krystal Ball, 30:17)
• Migration Policy as Spectacle [31:53–33:23]:
  • The administration’s focus on drama and optics (Kristi Noem’s stunts, “central casting” for positions) over policy substance.
  • “They spend a lot more time away from the substance, and I think that’s extra. I think that really does irritate people…” (Krystal Ball, 32:51)
• Disaffection Even Among the Right [36:07–37:23]:
  • Even hardline right figures express disappointment, seeing crackdown tactics as ineffective theater rather than delivering on actual promises or needs.
• Larger Consequences:
  • The emphasis on theatrical cruelty is backfiring, alienating independents and swing voters, and threatening GOP prospects in 2026.

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3. Layoffs & Economic Malaise

Main Theme:
A data-driven look at the “surge” in layoffs, the Trump administration’s agricultural bailouts, and persistent economic struggles facing everyday Americans—contrasting government messaging with on-the-ground reality.

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Key Discussion Points

• Layoffs at a 15-Year High [54:03–58:08]:

  • This year marks the highest number of layoffs outside of 2020—a COVID year—with both government and major corporations (UPS, Amazon, Intel, etc.) conducting mass job cuts.
    • “If you take away 2020, it’s the highest number of job cuts since 2009.” (Saagar Enjeti, 55:04)

• Small Business Squeeze & Consolidation [55:04–58:08]:

  • Small businesses are closing rapidly—a trend fueling further corporate consolidation.
  • Tariffs and economic volatility are major pressures, especially for those lacking cash reserves or political access.

• Farm Crises & Soybean Bailouts [41:06–44:01]:

  • Secretary Scott Besant’s awkward attempts to relate to farmers (claiming, then divesting from, a $25 soybean farm).
  • Trump announces a $12B bailout for farmers due to his own tariff fallout, echoing patterns from his first administration.

• Disconnect on Affordability [45:04–49:47]:

  • The administration tries to shift blame onto Biden and the media for continued inflation and affordability woes, but polling shows the public is not buying it.
  • “The American people don’t know how good they have it.” (Scott Besant, 45:11) — ridiculed on the show

• Healthcare: GOP and Democrats Both Lost [49:47–54:03]:

  • Republicans still have no innovative replacement for Obamacare; Democrats made healthcare a focus during shutdowns but lack new ideas.
  • Expiring ACA subsidies loom with no consensus solution in sight:
    • “There’s a very obvious solution on the table for them. But… there is no consensus policy.” (Krystal Ball, 54:03)

• Technology, Data Centers, and the AI Bubble [61:23–63:19]:

  • Meta (Facebook) investing in “data centers” rather than jobs in struggling towns; warnings that automation and AI could worsen unemployment and inequality further.

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4. Somalis Wage Meme War Against Trump & ICE

Main Theme:
After Trump labeled Somalis “garbage” and surged ICE into Minneapolis, the Somali-American community responded with a viral, razor-sharp meme campaign appropriating Zionist and American frontier language to comically stake their own “historical claim” to Minnesota.

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Key Discussion Points

• The Real Demographics [65:53–67:19]:
  • Most Somalis in Minnesota are citizens. Only about 1 in 10 are not.
• History Lesson: U.S. Policy and Migration Root Causes [67:19–67:47]:
  • U.S. Cold War intervention and forced austerity helped create the civil war in Somalia, which led to Somali migration.
• The Meme War [69:59–76:52]:
  • Somali memers brilliantly mimic pro-Israel rhetoric to claim Minnesota as their ancestral seat:
    • “Brothers, behold it. The white land of the north. Snow everywhere, but look, the skyline. Just like on the old drawings.” (Krystal, reading meme, 70:35)
  • Maps ironically label California and the “West Bank” as Somali territory; cuisine, monuments, and more are humorously “appropriated.”
  • Quote: “Honestly, genuinely… it is a really brilliant way to respond to these attacks… the trolling here… is just another level and a great response.” (Saagar Enjeti, 73:18)
• Reactions & Analysis:
  • Krystal lauds the self-deprecating humor as proof of “assimilation to American meme culture in spades.” (74:06)
  • “If you’re trying to otherize a people… and your response is this incredibly relatable, nuanced humor… you’re instantly humanizing yourself… fundamentally disarming.” (Saagar Enjeti, 76:01)
  • Example memes include the “Somali Stonewall Jackson” and a Manifest Destiny spoof with an Ilhan Omar lookalike as the angel over Minnesota.
  • The campaign is lauded as both clever resistance and a stinging headache for far-right nativists.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Krystal Ball:

  • “The idea that we could kill those two guys because they were a threat to the United States is completely insane.” [12:00]
  • “If they had a specific list like that, it’s hard to imagine they’re not trying these people in court… but instead, they’re just going back to different countries.” [17:11]

• Saagar Enjeti:

  • “It’s another thing when you see human beings struggling for their lives and you watch them for 40 minutes and then that decision is taken to murder them.” [21:39]
  • “It’s just giving everything over to the tech oligarchs and saying, OK, off to the races with AI. We’re going to grease the skids for you… with little to no thought about what may come after that.” [61:23]

• Jim Himes (Congressman):

  • On viewing unedited boat strike video: “What I saw in that room is one of the most troubling scenes I’ve ever seen in my time in public service.” [19:03]

• Tim Dillon:

  • “They’re just watching a boat blow up in the middle of the ocean… the only thing left now is performative cruelty.” [28:17]

• On The Somali Meme War:

  • “Brothers, behold it. The white land of the north. Snow everywhere, but look, the skyline. Just like on the old drawings.” [70:35]
  • “If you oppose this, I think you are antisomalitic.” (Saagar, 71:00, poking fun at “antisemitic”)

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Summary Table: Major Topics & Insights

| Segment | Main Critique/Insight | Key Quote/Time | |-----------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------|-------------------------------| | Boat Strike Coverup | Legality & morality questioned; shifting official explanations | “It’s insane…” (Krystal, 12:00)| | Tim Dillon Roasts Trump | ‘Performative cruelty’ as distraction, not substance | “Performative cruelty…” (Dillon, 28:17) | | Layoffs & Bailouts | Layoffs surge, farm bailouts echo old mistakes; little GOP vision | “[Layoffs] highest since 2009” (Saagar, 55:04) | | Somali Meme War | Memes as resistance, humor as insulation against bigotry | “Assimilation to American meme culture…” (Krystal, 74:06) |

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Conclusion

The episode provides a sharp, entertaining, and thorough breakdown of the week’s major controversies: exposing government opacity and moral failures in military actions, charging the Trump administration with empty performance over real problem-solving, and showcasing grassroots internet activism as a potent new tool for marginalized communities. Armed with wit and clear-eyed skepticism, Breaking Points remains an essential voice dissecting both the circus and the stakes of today’s politics.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

Sager and Crystal here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of the show.

[Krystal Ball]

This is the only place where you.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Can find honest perspectives from the left.

[Krystal Ball]

And the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail].

[Saagar Enjeti]

Good morning everybody. Welcome to Breaking Point Sagar's Ounce Sick so we have the lovely Emily with us. Great to have you on one.

[Krystal Ball]

Thanks for having me. Sager's Quote Sick I don't Know what he's doing? Maybe he was out last night.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We didn't double check, but I doubt he was out last night.

[Krystal Ball]

We should send somebody by the House to make sure that he's not. It's not a fraud.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes, we need to.

[Krystal Ball]

A Democrat hoax.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Trust but verify.

[Krystal Ball]

Democrat hoax. Like affordability. Yes. Democrat con job. Yeah, that's what it is.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Exactly. Lots of interesting things in the show today. We've got new revelations about the boat bombings. We've got new numbers about layoffs, which are looking really not good. Somalis are waging a meme war against this administration and Israel, catching a whole lot of strays in the mix. So, you know, we are all over that. Pipe bomb suspect is apparently a stop the steel guy. So we've got some updates for you there. Hillary is doubling down on her blaming of social media for Israel's reputation falling off. And Sydney Sweeney is changing course. Now, you guys are lucky Emily is here because I probably would not have covered this one with Sager or with Ryan, but with you for sure.

[Krystal Ball]

But you know what? It almost would have been more fun with just Sager and Ryan. We made them cover Sidney.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We forced them to cover it.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. That would not have gone well. That would have gone well, but not in the same way that we wanted to.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I pretty much know what Sagar would say about it. He thinks my whole, like, sense that and many other people sense that the Gap. The not Gap, American Eagle jeans ad was eugenics adjacent. He thinks that's ridiculous. Ryan, I'm curious, actually, now that we say it.

[Krystal Ball]

Good point.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Interested?

[Krystal Ball]

You and I had, like, a debate about that? Was the August when it happened? Yeah. Okay. So Sager. Sager's on my side. I don't know. Ryan is, I guess. Then the. We'll ask him.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The swing vote.

[Krystal Ball]

He's the swing vote. We'll see. We'll see. The breaking point Supreme Court.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes, indeed. All right, well, let's jump into the show. We had Tom Cotton out on the Sunday shows defending the double tap strike on that initial boat. With that initial boat bombing. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of what he had to say.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Did you see any evidence of them trying to use a radio in the video you saw?

Well, I saw lots of evidence of them standing on the boat that had been capsized. That wasn't my question. Did you see any evidence Trying to get it back up? Trying to. Trying to flip it over. Did you see any evidence of them trying to use a radio? No, I didn't John, let me ask you this specific question.

[Krystal Ball]

Would it be legal for police in.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Arkansas to kill suspected drug dealers on a boat in Overturn Lake?

Well, John, let me go back to the premise of your question. The Washington Post reported that Pete Hegseth had given an unlawful order of no quarter or no one left alive or kill them all. Pete Hegseth denied that last week and it didn't deny that there was a second strike. Mitch Bradley and Dan Kaine both flatly denied that yesterday as well, which some of the Democrats who watched that video and got those briefings confirmed. So that was what the Washington Post reported. That is a total and complete lie. I just respectfully disagree with my Democratic friends here. I think the problem they have is not with the second strike. It's with the first strike and every other strike on these boats. They think the entire operation is not well founded. I just disagree with them. I think the analogy I would draw is not Arkansas police officers dealing with American citizens. If those boats were loaded with bombs or missiles headed for the United States, I don't think anyone would dispute that we had every right and indeed a duty to intercept them. But those drugs detonate like a bomb all across Arkansas and all across America, killing hundreds of Arkansans and hundreds of thousands of Americans. Our government has a duty to protect our communities from those drugs, Senator. That's exactly what we're trying to do.

[Krystal Ball]

Can I just take this in pieces.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

And we first answer my question. Would it be legal for police in Arkansas to kill suspected drug dealers in an overturned boat in a lake in Arkansas? Just answer that and then I will address your question on the other thing.

John, the premise of your question is not well founded criminals in Arkansas are not foreign nationals who are affiliates of a foreign, foreign terrorist designated organization. The answer is no, it would not be legal. Like saying, like. Hang on. The answer is no, it would not be legal to kill.

[Krystal Ball]

Let me ask a follow up question.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

If they are terrorists, when did Congress pass the authorized use of force to attack them?

John, the reason why your question is not well founded is like saying, would Barack Obama be okay droning an American citizen when he was president like he did to Anwar Al Awlaki?

[Saagar Enjeti]

You are talking about the President protecting Americans, Arkansans from drugs. And yet just this week the President pardoned the former president of Honduras who trafficked more than 500 tons of cocaine into the United States. He was serving a 45 year sentence. Senator, how does that make America safer?

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Well, I haven't spoken to the President about that pardon. There may be strategic reasons to pardon a former president of Honduras because of relationship with Honduras and trying to move them in a more pro American direction. I'll leave that open as a possibility. But Kristen, I think, you know, my general approach to crime is that we should lock them. We should convict them and then we should lock them up. And once they're locked up, we should keep them locked up.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So given that, do you oppose the pardon, given that you're saying you want to protect our Kansas?

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

I'd have to. I'd have to know more about the circumstances.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So some very interesting questions that were asked there. And just let me break down a few of these. So, first of all, John Berman was asking Tom Cotton, did you see any evidence that this guy was trying to use a radio? And the reason that's relevant is one, we've gotten a number of shifting rationales for why the second strike in particular was legal and justified. Now, Tom Cotton is actually right when he says that their problem with it is the whole operation. My problem with it is the whole operation. The whole thing is illegal. But the nation has fixated on this second strike because it's like the textbook example of a war crime. So the reason the radio is relevant is because one of the justifications they had was, oh, he may have been calling in help from his cartel buddies. So that was one of the things that was offered in some of this reporting. Well, Tom Cotton views that video and says, well, no, actually didn't see any signs of them trying to use a radio. And others who saw that video said the same thing as, well. The question too, about, well, would it be lawful for police officers to kill drug dealers on a boat in an Arkansas lake? We were actually talking about this while the clip was running. I think that that is an excellent question, because what is the difference between we're just going to assassinate random people, that we are not gonna provide you any particular evidence of who they are in the Caribbean versus claiming those powers on our own soil. One thing I've been saying that is very disturbing about the powers that they're claiming here and their claim that they are at war with these drug dealers is that there is no limiting principle that would keep you from taking those sorts of actions domestically. The other thing it gets asked about the authorization of the use of force also very good question. You're a United States Senator. If we're at war, doesn't that need to be declared? That is a power that's supposed to be vested with Congress. Of course there has been no war declared and then the other question lastly from Kristen Welker, there was about Juan Orlando Hernandez, who we have covered here. That was the former Honduran president who is actually what they're claiming Maduro was and was involved in shipping tons and tons of cocaine into the United States, had been convicted actually by Emile Beauvais, who's funny, which funny now. Big Trump guy, he was the one who prosecuted him and he was let out of prison. Which really undercuts this idea that like, oh, we're doing everything we can to go after this. Drug dealers. No, at best, at best, you're murdering some random, incredibly low level, easily replaceable, desperate fisherman and having zero impact on any sort of narcotics trafficking.

[Krystal Ball]

We don't even. They refuse to show their work as to how they know who is on these boats.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

Like time and again, we actually have no idea how they, how internally they're justifying. They say they track them and it's all totally under control. But the reason I really loved the Berman question about when the authorized use of military force was passed is that, well, the rumblings, even though we're in the absence of like real clear explanations as to legally why they can do what they're doing, et cetera, they're probably going to end up relying on the post 911 AUMF as their designation, which has, by the way, been used in 22 countries already. And that is likely when all of these lawsuits start happening. We already see some of the legal challenges in motion. They will probably rely on the post 911 AUMF, which is why that was a great question from John Berman. And so Tom Cotton's point is telling that, yes, he's saying people who have a problem with the double tap have a problem with the whole operation in general. Yep, that's correct. Well said, sir. Yes, you got it. Because again, if we just zoom out, take a 30,000 foot view. I actually think people like soccer, me, maybe even Ryan too, Crystal. But like we have a lot of sympathy for the idea that some of these like cartels, not in Venezuela, but I would say like Sinaloa or places that have been trafficking mass amounts of fentanyl across our border. It's like that's we should do something about it. I'm not saying militarily, but I'm just saying nobody likes the cartels. Everybody thinks the cartels have been trafficking mass amounts of fentanyl into the United States and that that's a bad thing. What's different, of course, is then saying that's the justification for using the post 9 11AMF to take specific actions on cocaine trafficking from Venezuela in the Caribbean. It almost preys on people's upset at what's happened with fentanyl. It's like it's almost exploitive.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And it is exploitive. That's absolutely right.

[Krystal Ball]

And that's if we take, we zoom out, take a 30,000 foot view. The idea is right now what Tom Cotton is saying do I think actually they can make the argument in court that this boat, because I think our war powers are so broad and I think our law is so broad that I think they probably can make this argument that the boat was still afloat. That could be a hazard in the ocean. That could, it could mean that someone comes rescued. I think they can flesh out their argument in court. I might not agree with it, but if we zoom out to the 30,000 foot level here, the idea that we could kill those two guys because they were a threat to the United States is completely insane. That they were a military threat to the United States is insane. Yeah, insane.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, and let's put a 3B up on the screen actually because we got some interesting details from Admiral Bradley who was on Capitol Hill talking to lawmakers and he admitted that this drug boats. Our intelligence did not conclude that if there were drugs on this boat, which again, there's been no evidence provided of, but if we take them at their word that there were drugs on this boat, they weren't even heading to the U.S. rather, it showed the boat was traveling south toward another country in South America, which was first reported by cnn. Bradley told the lawmakers the drugs were eventually heading to Europe or Africa. So Tom Cotton there says we should think about if this was bombs that were on a boat that were headed to the US and how you would feel about that. Okay, well, they're not even headed to the. I mean even if we take that example, which I think is not an equivalent example, but even if you take that example, they weren't even heading to the U.S. the other thing, put a 4 up on the screen that was relevant from what Admiral Bradley had to say to lawmakers is now the new justification isn't oh, they were radioing for help or oh, the debris from the wreck was going to be a waterway hazard. I don't think anyone was buying that too much. Put a 4 up on the screen. Now he's claiming that all 11 people on this vessel were on some list of military targets, that they knew every single person that was on the boat, that they were all on a list of Military targets. And thus that makes it justified. I mean, I'm just calling bullshit, like, calling bullshit on this. Because if they knew who these people were, think of how much this administration loves to trot out, like, we arrested this bad guy who did this bad thing and here's his mugshot and he's locked up for good, or we deported him, whatever. If they actually knew who these people were and they were some big bad guys, they would have published their names. It would all be out there, their whole history. It would have been put to the public. Rather, this is just their latest scramble to try to cover up what is increasingly being accepted in a bipartisan fashion as a clear war crime. At best, in my opinion, the whole thing is just murder. Just out and out murder. There's no war, so it can't be a war crime. But at best, it's a clear cut war crime. Like literally in the textbook, when they give an example of the type of orders that service members should consider disobeying, this is the type of thing that they lay out as such a clear cut example that it would justify saying, you know what? I'm out. I'm not doing this.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I just. The only thing I disagree with is that, and I'm not an expert in military law, I just think our laws are so broad that it protects people doing things that are obviously ridiculous, like saying you have to take these two guys out because they pose a military threat to the United States. I feel like I've seen fascinating analyses from people who say it's true. Like, you can legally justify it. And people who say there's no way it's legally justified. It's insane. I look at it and I'm like, it's insane. For, like, law aside, it's just insane because they're clinging to the side of a craft in the middle of the Caribbean. They're not military targets. Like, it's just a crazy idea that how much money did we spend on the entire operation to say that this is something that's keeping the American people more safe? It's all just completely ridiculous. But yeah, it gets extra hard to believe the story that there are military targets. Do I think maybe that they have some giant broad list? And that's the language. I'm parsing Pete Hegseth's language. Maybe. Is there some list that says people who. It's not even names, but it's like people who are doing X, Y and Z from this port and that port. Maybe. But at first it was. This happened so quickly. Now we know it was 45 minutes. Now there's a leak saying that it was. That they were on the list. I don't know. I mean, if they had a specific list like that, it's hard to imagine that they're not trying these people in court, which has not happened yet. They have not tried any of the survivors in court. They have repatriated survivors, which is again very interesting because if they were such serious threats to the United States, I'd like to see them tried in court. If they're actually going to be. If they are intentionally part of a state backed effort in Venezuela to harm Americans with bioweapons or with narco terrorism. Let's do it. Let's try them. That sounds great. I would love to see that trial. But instead they're just going back to different countries.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, they're such violent, dangerous criminals that we're just going to let them go free. Not even criminals, terrorists, that we're just going to let them go free and repatriate them to their home country. There is some reporting which is I.

[Krystal Ball]

Guess consistent with Juan Orlando Hernandez. We're just pardoning.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, true.

[Krystal Ball]

Let them all out.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Let's put a 5 up on the screen here. This is some reporting from David Schuster who claims he has exclusive evidence that the US Navy actually deleted video of a different boat strike. So the one that Emily is referring to, there were two instances that we know of where there were survivors. The first boat strike where they decided just to murk the two survivors as well and kill them as well. And there was another one and that's the one where they decided, okay, I guess we're gonna just take these two guys and send them back to their home countries. Shuster is claiming he has sources that reveal that the Navy was actually ordered to delete the photos and videos from that second instance where there were survivors as well. So attempt to cover up exactly what unfolded there. And last mentioned before lawmakers, Admiral Bradley was on the Hill talking to lawmakers. Lawmakers were able to view the full video. So you'll recall they publicized, I think they post on Twitter they were so proud of being able to bomb this boat. That got posted immediately, but of course they did not include the 40 minute wait as survivors struggle to flip over the boat and are waving, presumably for help, desperately trying to keep their lives intact. Did not publish that part of the video. Democrats are now calling for that additional video evidence to be released as well. Representative Jim Himes spoke out after he viewed it and said it was one of the most troubling scenes that he had ever witnessed. Let's take a listen to that.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

I'm told that the briefings just ended on the House side and that Democrat Congressman Jim Himes, the ranking member of the House Intel Committee, came out, spoke to media and said they were shown the unedited video of that second strike. And he says, quote, what I saw in that room is one of the most troubling scenes I've ever seen in my time in public service.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So Democrats pushing to have that video released. I think it's possible because you do have bipartisan investigations announced in both the House and the Senate. You have, I think, not a lot of love for Pete Hegseth. You can tell me, Emily, just because he's not one of them. His, his time at the Pentagon has been seen as very chaotic. He has not been really brought into the inner, inner circle and given the level of power that a Marco Rubio or Stephen Miller or Susie Wiles even has been, he's been pushed in some senses to the side in this administration, allowed to do his little speeches and his little pull up contests and whatever that sort of track is. So it would not shock me if they decided to sort of sacrifice Pete over this issue or over other issues. It would not shock me if some enough Republicans on the committee only need one or two in order to vote along with the Democrats to release this footage as well.

[Krystal Ball]

I definitely think they'll. There's a chance they'll release the footage because the Tom Cotton clips that we played earlier are really instructive. They don't believe they have anything to hide because they believe this is all legally justified Fog of war, even though we now know it was 45 minutes. I think they're.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Fog of war is ridiculous in the circumstance.

[Krystal Ball]

I think they're totally happy to have the video come out. I'm sure it's not like their preference, but I don't think it's keeping them up at night because I think they feel like they have plenty of ways to justify it. And that's one of the problems with our system right now is you can find a million different ways to bend over backwards and do these legal gymnastics to justify obviously ridiculous stuff. So I don't know if they're even so worried about that. Hikes us future. Seems to me this is becoming like a culture war is the wrong phrase. But if anything, this might be drawing certain Republicans even closer to Hagseth or even more defensive of Hagseth because a lot of the people who were initially really uncomfortable with Hagseth were more, quote, moderate Republicans who were. Didn't love what he had said about Ukraine and, like, were maybe a little bit more in a neoconservative camp, to speak very roughly. And if anything, they're like, oh, hell, yeah, we're just striking people in the Caribbean now because of raw power. Got to protect Texas.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. There was an interesting moment with Tom Cotton where he accidentally referred to Trump as President Bush, which was major Freudian slip there, unfortunate slip there, in terms of mixing up those two presidents at this particular moment. You know, one thing about the video footage is it's one thing when you just see a boat and it blows up, right? You don't get the sense of, like, oh, my God, these are human lives. Like, these are actual people. These are human beings that we are just, you know, we are just deciding to take their lives. And we're claiming that they're narco terrorists. We're claiming all these things. We're not being given any evidence of that. In fact, now there's a lawsuit from the family of one of the people that was murdered who claims this was literally just a fisherman who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. So that's one thing, though, just to see the boat and the boat blows up. Wow, look at us. We're so powerful. It's another thing when you see human beings struggling for their lives and you watch them for 40 minutes and then that decision is taken to murder them. It turns it from a theoretical thing into a real human thing. I mean, this is what we've seen happen in Gaza, right? Not to equate the people there with these people, whatever, but when people were able to see in their feed the humanity of these individuals who have a whole world and a whole life and dreams and aspirations and saw that being snuffed out so casually in such a barbaric way, that is what, you know, that is what overcame all of the propaganda war that would push us to say we've got to support Israel no matter what. And so I do think it is a very different thing when you actually see human beings and have to account for them as, like, real people who have families and lives that are just being casually snuffed out in this manner. I do think that that would have an impact on the public, just in the same way that, you know, we heard about the Epstein birthday book and the Trump drawing. It was another thing to see it, wasn't it? It had a different impact when you actually had that and the whole book and that landed a lot differently with the American people.

[Krystal Ball]

It was much more charming when you saw the drawing, the scribblings. Yeah. Disgusting. So, yeah, there's some reports that the men on the boat were waving. And the question is, was that a sign of surrender? Was that.

Was that to the U.S. aircraft? Was it a sign as. I think some people in Hyksith camp have said to their own people to like, keep going, whatever. I think that's part of the explanation is that maybe they were calling for backup or something. But this is to the point you were just making. Crystal. This was not active combat to say that. This was active combat to say that these people were engaged in act of terrorism. Because they were. Allegedly. They had cocaine on a boat, which of course, lots of people have cocaine on boats in the Caribbean and it's illegal. And they're going up and bringing it to what? Where were they going? Suriname. Like somewhere. It's not the United States.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

It's not.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Fentanyl wasn't even intended ultimately to go to the United States.

[Krystal Ball]

And the question are they actually connected to a terrorist group? A terrorist group that could be covered under the aumf? I mean, it's all just the idea that these guys who are clinging to the side of a boat, maybe they. Maybe part of their efforts to survive did involve trying to call for backup for the. Maybe that's true. The idea that we just stopped terrorists is absurd.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, completely.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Pets Age 0 to 10 Tim Dillon had an interesting show recently. I just listened to the whole thing yesterday. I recommend you guys listen to it too. It is both entertaining and also insightful, as he often is. And he has his own theories about why we are bombing these boats. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

And they're not talking about Epstein, and they're not talking about whatever the hell else is in these documents that may or may not come out redacted or unredacted. And they're not talking as much about the economy. And they're not asking to have health care. And they're not asking what Palantir is doing. And they're not asking why five tech guys in AI control half the American economy in San Francisco. They're not asking any of that. They're just watching a boat blow up in the middle of the ocean. When you have this clumsy, you know, kind of somewhat insane, over the top deportations.

People are looking at this and going, it's unserious, it's childish, it's cruel. I think one of the problems with whatever the MAGA movement is evolved into you is it's duped their hardcore followers so much that the only thing left now is performative cruelty.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Performative cruelty. That's his take, both on the deportations and also on the drug boats. And I don't know if you watch the whole thing, but basically the the bit is like they're not releasing The Epstein files. The economy sucks. Like, all these things are going sideways. They're not making good on any of these other promises or aspirations people had for the administration. So what does the US do when the going gets tough? They have to show that they can murder some people. They can bomb some boats. The boomers will put it up on Fox News. The boomers will love it. People like us will talk about it, we'll debate it, get the focus off these other things. And so when things started going sideways, they were like, we must bomb some boats. We must kill some people just to show that the government even still exists and is capable of projecting power. That's basically his bit.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, the theory I just don't think is accurate because just from the. Not that I think it's a crazy.

Crazy belief, but just this stuff has been percolating as what people have wanted to do with the second Trump administration since before the second Trump administration happened. And to agree with Tim, I mean, I've been criticized by some people.

On our show talking about how so much of this, like, what did you call them? Crystal meal team 6? Is that a Kyle someone?

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, that's an Internet. It came from Twitter.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, some of it, like, I call these guys LARPers. And people are like, no, no, it's not. That just minimizes what they're actually doing. It's like, no, it's. I think it makes it 10 times worse that there's something performative, there's anything that feels attractive in performing the, like, quote, cruelty, which I don't necessarily.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It doesn't make the cruelty less cruel, but the purpose of it is a performance.

[Krystal Ball]

And I think that just makes it so pathetic. And so that's where the theater of it, because so much of it is theater. If you talk to, like, hardcore immigration hawks, actually, a lot of them are pissed because they don't think deportations are happening at a fast enough rate. And they're like, it's all putting on the show. It's a lot of theater. And so, again, I'm not. I don't think I'm in that camp. I don't know what they could possibly do to, like, increase deportations other than hiring more asylum judges at this point. But there's nothing sexy about hiring more asylum judges. Like, you can't. You can't strap on, like, all of your Kevlar and bring influencers along to hire asylum judges.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Instead, they're actually firing a lot of immigration judges who they don't think are going to be sufficiently sort of like toe the anti immigrant line. But yeah, I mean, that would lead to an actually more functional system because a big part of the problem with all of this is that you do have such a massive backlog in the asylum system that de facto, people end up here for years while those claims are being adjudicated. And so that is one of the big major. And everybody knows this. This is not a secret left. Right. Everybody knows this. But that would actually, like, deal with the problem, make the system more functional, and it would not create a titillating display of sadism that they are substituting in for actually delivering on any of people's material concerns and needs.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, Kristi Noem herself, I think, is a good example of that. Or like a good embodiment.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Oh, my gosh. Of it.

[Krystal Ball]

But. Cause like Trump, we Remember back in 2016, he picks Mike Pence because the reports say Pence had a, like, the movie star cinematic look of a vice president. That part of the reason that Trump is that he thought he was, like, out of central casting. I think that's the quote that some reports indicated was part of his thinking. And Christy Noem, of course, is somebody who Trump wanted to put this, like, tough, badass female. She wasn't chosen because of her substantive Homeland Security expertise. Yeah. That's not why Kristi. That's not been Kristi Noem's career. It's not why she was chosen. He chose her for public relations.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He likes the costume changes and the, you know, play acting.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And presumably the hundreds of millions of dollars that were spent in ads basically to bolster her and show her, like, riding around on a horse or whatever.

[Krystal Ball]

100%, yes. And, you know, obviously some of that stuff, like public relations is not unimportant, but it's just another good example of whether you agree with the substance or you disagree with the substance. The administration spends a lot more time away from the substance, and I think that's extra. I think that really does irritate people, Tim Dillon or otherwise, when they start disagreeing with the substance. And the politics of that become very, very dangerous when it looks like you're pouring all of your resources into theater instead of substance.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Did you see the reports that Kristi Noem might be on the rocks in the administration? Do you think that that is accurate?

[Krystal Ball]

I don't think so. It wouldn't surprise me if it happened, but I haven't heard anything myself like that. It wouldn't surprise me, though, because there are people that are really dissatisfied with the way things are. Like, on the Right. Who are dissatisfied with way things are being run. Not necessarily just because they think more people should be deported, but just because they think they see everything as really unnecessarily chaotic and messy. And she's graded on people. Yeah, she's graded on people. I think Corey Lewandowski is graded on people, so it wouldn't shock me.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Gotcha. Yeah. The central casting thing is why I took some. I thought that the reports that Kash Patel might be on his way out. Why I took those seriously, because he is not out of central casting. He is out of central casting for the, like, bumbling, idiot bureaucrat FBI director. He is out of central casting for that, but not for the, like, you know, whatever projection of strength that Trump would want in that role.

[Krystal Ball]

I guess maybe we should do a poll for a pool for premium subscribers of who's the first to go, because.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Hegseth Noam Cash was Dan Bongino.

[Krystal Ball]

If I had to guess from the cabinet, if I had to, I would say Cash.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Really?

[Krystal Ball]

I would say he'll be the first. But I don't know. He's obviously. We're gonna talk about this later in the show, but he's obviously trying to endear himself to the president pretty hard right now.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I feel like the more liberal media outlets report on Cash being on the out.

[Krystal Ball]

Exactly.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The safer he is, the more time he gets.

[Krystal Ball]

That's totally true. I think it's totally true of Kristi Noem as well.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Really?

[Krystal Ball]

Because. Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Was that another NBC report?

[Krystal Ball]

I thought that was NBC.

I'm looking it up right now.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The Cash report was actually Ms. Now, which are now two distinct things. They actually did pull some real reporters.

[Krystal Ball]

It was the bulwark, actually. Oh, the known one was the border. Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Than NBC.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So. Okay. Well, we will see. But I mean, the other thing that's interesting to note of Tim Dillon is obviously, like, he was supportive of Trump and now he is definitely not. So that's another interesting thing to note and I think will tie into the Sydney Sweeney block as well. I know that's a unique comparison to make perhaps, but I mean, I think emblematic of a vibe shift and just a general recognition that, like, whatever hopeful thing you thought this administration was gonna be, there's almost no one who is like, yes, this is completely going the way that I wanted it to go, even if are a hard right immigration hawk and you actually wanted to see millions of immigrants deported or whatever. When I listened to Nick Fuentes talk about how he's disappointed that there aren't millions of people being mass deported right now. So even from that perspective, I guess it's a disappointment.

[Krystal Ball]

It's all such a mess. Yeah.

There'S been a lot of testing of policy, legal grounds, but there's also been a lot of testing of what kind of policy constitutes a conservative immigration policy. And not a lot of consensus, but also not a lot of backlash from the right so far. Yeah, that could change.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, and I think Tim Dillon, the Sagar, has been making this point. I think you've been making this point too, from the like, I guess, right wing immigration restrictionist perspective. Not that Tim Dillon is in the same place as like where Sager is, but he's like, like if people have the choice between this like performative cruelty and all right, we're just gonna like not do this. They're gonna be like, yeah, we're not going in that direction. This is horrible. So like seeing these like kids pepper sprayed, ripped apart from their parents and the mass thugs in the street, just like randomly assaulting people or even shooting them, it really is very strongly discrediting the whole anti immigrant project. And especially when that is being substituted in place of actually addressing people's genuine concerns. And with the President out there building his ballroom and calling affordability a quote unquote con job.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Yep. And like bringing helicopters to Chicago, I mean, it's all just. Again, I think the danger that they run into is of course some people disagree with their immigration policy. Some people are going to want it to go even further, but a lot of people are also going to look at it and say, what are you actually doing? Are you just wasting everyone's money and making people mad and causing all of these legal problems for yourself, for the country? Are you making the situation worse? And I think those three buckets, that one is the one where you could see independent swing types be. When you lose that, you're going to make it hard for Republicans campaigning in the midterms to defend, you know, a helicopter in Chicago or whatever it is. So that's, that's where I think it gets difficult for them.

[Sophie Cunningham]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea or OSA in adults with obesity, they may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

The place that Democrats have picked up ground in these past elections versus like and in polling versus how they won and did well in the 2018 midterms. In the 2018 midterms it was like winning more white college educated voters. Now this time it's actually all of the gains have been made with non white non college voters, which I think is about two things. I think it is a rejection of the hardline immigration policy and the performative cruelty. And I think it's about the economy. We have some new numbers with regard to layoffs that are looking really grim. Treasury Secretary Scott Besant was sent out onto the Sunday shows and was once again touting his bona fides as a soybean farmer. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

I'm involved in the agricultural industry. I run a soybean farm and I.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Can tell you, you invest in it. Sorry, you own or invest in it.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

And people in my family go out and work on it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

If everything's fine, then why do farmers need a bridge payment from the Agricultural Department? Sorry, why would farmers need a bridge payment from the Agriculture Department then?

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Because these prices haven't come in. Because the Chinese actually used our soybean farmers as pawns in the trade negotiations. And we are going to create this bridge because, again, agriculture is all about the future. You've got to start financing for planning next year when things will be very good.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So he's getting pressed there on the soybean aspect. You know, this is a major issue in a lot of farm states. I don't know if you guys have seen some of the polling out of Iowa, but the governor's race there is competitive. There's some hopefulness around the Senate race there as well. And a large part of that is dissatisfaction with the trade policy and the way that it has hurt soybean farmers in particular. And I mean, I don't know why he does this bit, Emily, of insisting that he's like super in touch with the average soybean farmer out there, but apparently he's committed to it.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, he was committed to it, except actually later in the thing with Margaret Brennan, he said, I actually just divested it this week, referring to this, quote, soybean farm, which is a twenty five dollar operation. It's hilarious to refer to that as a farm, which is so funny.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

But he said, I actually just divested it this week as part of my ethics agreement. So I'm, quote, out of that business. Which is right after he said, I run a soybean farm.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, I did divest that. Which is, I'm sure how soybean farmers describe selling their farms, is divesting from their, their farm.

[Krystal Ball]

Now, just, just announced, literally as we were like, this is, as of 10 minutes ago, we have a report from the Wall Street Journal that Trump is unveiling a $12 billion bailout for farmers. So that echoes what happened in the first Trump administration. But obviously another suggestion. Yeah, this is a $12 million aid package to, as the Journal puts it, help the agriculture sector, quote, grapple with the fallout from President Trump's far reaching tariffs. So a sign, obviously, I mean, that is not surprising. We saw it earlier, but a sign that the squeeze is really starting to sink in. That was different, you know, the couple weeks after Liberation Day. Quote, Liberation Day Everyone was like, whoa, you know, what's, what's going to happen? Well, now it's almost the end of the year and they're unveiling their aid package. So tells you what the arc of the, I guess, last. Well, how many months has that been?

The last eight months.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Already eight months in.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Yeah. Well. And, you know, once we struck this trade deal with China, the idea was China was going to start buying the soybeans again. And that hasn't come through.

[Krystal Ball]

What?

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's not even close out there. Yeah, not even. Not even close. And, you know, from the farmers that I've heard interviewed, you know that I'm sure the bailout will help, but they don't want a bailout. They want to have a sustainable market that they can sell into, which, you know, a whole other conversation about why we are so dependent on China for sales of soybeans from, you know, from our farmers. But we'll put that aside for now. Scott Besant was also asked about President Trump saying that affordability is a, quote, unquote, con job. Let's go ahead and take a listen to how he defended that. We hear from, for example, the president when he says that affordability is a con job by Democrats that seems to just not be resonating with consumers that have been polled by CBS. 60% of Americans polled by this network told us President Trump makes prices and inflation sound better than they really are. And his approval rating in the economy is now down to 36%. In our latest poll on inflation, approval is even lower, 32%. Don't you need to show that you feel the pain?

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Well, Margaret, I think the president's frustrated by the media coverage of what's going on.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Polling average Americans.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Yeah, but I think the average Americans are hearing a lot of from media coverage. What we're not going to do is say that Americans don't know what they're feeling. We've been working on it every day. The American people don't know how good they have it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Do you think there is an affordable affordability problem?

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Sorry.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You do believe that?

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Oh, I think the Biden administration created a.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No. But now we're nearly 12 months in. You said the president would own the economy at this point. So two things there. First of all, he's saying, oh, the media coverage is driving people to feel like the economy's not great. He has that line in there. Americans don't know how good they have it. Good luck selling that one, buddy. And then the other piece, that people just aren't Buying at this point is that this is all still Biden's fault. Even Republicans, when you ask them whose fault it is, they will put more blame at Biden's feet. But come on, you all have been in office almost a year now. You made all these grand promises. And I think critically, Trump has had his hands all over this economy. A lot of promises were made about how glorious the tariffs would be and what it would mean for the economy, et cetera. And so here as we're heading into the holiday season and you have this sense of betrayal, distrust, malaise at best, with this administration still trying to point the finger at the other guy is just not going to cut it.

[Krystal Ball]

No. I saw a really interesting proposal from Chris Jacobs writing in the Federalist, obviously from the right, which was to help actually ease some of the backlash to tariffs and the general economy. Could the Trump administration ease tariffs? Actually, this is pretty smart on things like coffee, bananas, foodstuffs that literally cannot be grown. Net scale in the United states going into 2026 that I could see happening.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I thought they were doing that.

[Krystal Ball]

They might, I mean, I, I haven't seen anything that is like a concerted effort, but because still what they're doing and what could be very difficult about that is they're still doing these carve out deals where it's based on their conversations and meetings. The push and pull not necessarily brought.

[Saagar Enjeti]

A gold bar this week.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, right, there's that too, but not necessarily like some grand strategy about what's being grown here, food wise, what' grown here, what's being sold elsewhere and that sort of thing. So I, we could see something like that happen. And the reason that politically it's obviously a disaster. And they know, I mean people, when people see high prices at the grocery store, they don't see things coming down. Whether or not it's the President's fault, they're going to blame the party in power. And Republicans right now have the House, the Senate and the presidency, so they're sure as hell going to blame Republicans this time around. I think though, the bigger problem for the administration is housing and healthcare, because those are like the two biggest parts of people's budgets. There's also childcare, which is insane in certain states. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like they have not really done much on any of that, let alone messaging on any of that. Trump obviously knows that housing is a problem for him because he was saying that Jay Powell was essentially creating an emergency for American families with the interest rate. So I don't know, like those are the Big ones. And there's nothing that you can really tariff with your. If his tariff power even continues to exist as he's used it. You can't just wave a magic wand on those.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. There's also reporting from the Wall Street Journal about the fact that Trump just doesn't really like. He actually thinks that affordability is a quote unquote con job. He thinks that the economy is doing great. The metrics he's looking at, the stock market. He thinks that people should be satisfied with this, this. And there is a sort of like whole of administration effort to get him to care about affordability and take it seriously and refocus some of his dwindling brain, share mindshare from the ballroom expansion to affordability and actually like get in the game with that. That there's like a concerted effort being made and they're struggling to get him to really sort of focus in on what Americans routinely say is their biggest concern. You mentioned healthcare. I think you're absolutely right. I mean, this is one thing you can say about the Democrats shutdown fight is it really did put the spotlight on healthcare. It really did help to educate people about, okay, these premiums are going up and who is to blame for that. I mean, there are a lot of people to blame, but one of the immediate factors is the imminent expiration of these ACA subsidies that had helped keep things more reasonable, especially for middle class families. One Republican who's sort of like considered a moderate in a swing district, Representative Fitzpatrick, was speaking out against Republicans in general and their lack of any sort of a health care plan. This is B6. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I say that if you don't have a better plan, then get on board with ours. But doing nothing is not an option. Right. I mean, I've heard so many people in the Republican conference rail on the Affordable Care act, rail on Obamacare, rail on on the premium tax credits. And if you want to criticize something, that's okay as long as you have a better alternative. They have never offered a better alternative. We went down this healthcare path my freshman term. I voted against the repeal of the aca. I thought the replacement was insufficient. It was hastily put together, not well thought out. And here we are, what, eight years later and they still have not been able to put together an articulable plan.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So it's sounding a little like Marjorie Taylor Greene there.

[Krystal Ball]

Congressman Alan Cumming. Yeah, well, that's actually been the.

Because Marjorie Taylor Greene was seen as obviously hardcore maga. And I think that's a fair characterization of her. Brian Fitzpatrick is not hardcore maga. And so that's where basically you still have the kind of Chamber of Commerce style Republicans who are all about just, just what's the best way to put it? I mean, I don't even know, like, all about trickle down economics is probably the best way to put it. Who still aren't really paying attention to this, don't really see it as the five alarm fire that it is unless they can talk about repealing Obamacare. When it comes to replacing Obamacare, there's literally no consensus point on that. And that's where I think, because you have the Fitzpatricks and the MTGs, MTG is not out of Congress until the new year. So keep that in mind for when it comes down to voting. These tax, not these tax credit, these healthcare credits expire at the end of the year. So they're gonna need a vote on that before the end of the year if they don't want them to expire heading into the midterm cycle with huge premium spikes that are about to come everyone's way. So they need to fast. I mean, it is December 8th. They need to come up with something on this. Like yesterday.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And remember when a few weeks ago Trump was like, oh, we've got a healthcare plan. We're gonna announce it it. And then it was leaked what the details were. And they hadn't run it by anyone in Congress, apparently. And then there was a big backlash to.

What the proposal was, which basically involved extending the Obamacare subsidies for two years and then some other little tweaks. And there were a bunch of Republicans who were like, we don't like this. What are you doing? And then that got scrapped and we haven't heard anything else about a health care plan moving forward. And, you know, I mean, for Fitzpatrick and also for Marjorie Taylor Greene, they complain about like, the GOP doesn't have a health care plan, but it's not like you are a member of Congress. You could have an idea of your own, you could offer something. But the problem has always been that because Obamacare was basically the Republican proposal, they have never figured out that was borrowed from Romneycare in Massachusetts, which came from Heritage foundation ideas. And so they've never really figured out what their proposal would be. And so they've just tried to either they would run on like repeal and replace, being very vague about what the replace would entail, or just railed against Obamacare in terms of coming up with an affirmative solution that has always been a real weak point for them. And it is interesting on the Democratic side too, because Kamala Harris and Joe Biden also didn't weren't that interested in talking about healthcare. You know, that was really gift to Republicans in a lot of ways because it is a very weak issue for them. Joe Biden originally ran on a public option. Then of course that got scrapped. They didn't even try to do anything with that during the campaign. Kamala Harris nominally in favor of a public option. Again, wasn't a major debate point during the campaign. Trump famously said he had concepts of a plan. The health care debate is also becoming much hotter and more central in Democratic Party primaries. And you have a lot more Democrats who are now getting on board with Medicare for all because they see the reality of the system as it is. You just had Chris Van Hollen come out and do a video saying, and this is what listen, this is where we're at. We've got to support Medicare for all. But they see where the base of the party is headed right now as well and what a pain point this is. So I do think that this is going to become a more central issue, take more of a central role in our politics the way that it was in 2016 and the way that it did in the 2020 primaries as well.

[Krystal Ball]

There's a very obvious solution on the table for them. But the problem is, to your point, again, there is no consensus policy. The obvious solution here is that you easily pass, pass an extension of the credits, like just do it, extend the credits. You could do it a year, you could do it two years and then say we're going to do this, but we will have a health care bill on the floor of the House for a vote by March. Right. But they don't want to do that, of course, because they don't actually have anything. Now, morally and politically, it is foolish not to spend while you have the House and the Senate, your political and the presidency, your political capital over the next year, coming up with a Republican health care plan over the next couple of months. I mean, it's so urgent. But if you're a member of Congress or if you're somebody lobbying members of Congress on behalf of these insurance companies, you don't feel this in your. Even though, I mean, it hits people across every income spectrum really hard, but you just don't feel like the average American family feels it. So you're disconnected from the degree to which it's an emergency.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, yeah. At the same time, let's put B3 up on the screen, we're getting more and more numbers about accelerating layoffs and just what the picture looks like. So this is Frank Luntz here says this year has had the Highest layoff since 2020, of course, which was Covid. It's an extraordinary situation. If you take away 2020, it's the highest number of job cuts since 2009. So, you know, really a lot of layoffs. And you could put before up on the screen. This is a partial list of some of the large companies that have announced layoffs. The U.S. government, 307,000 employees. Sometimes that gets left off, but that is very significant part of our economy. And what's going on ups, 48,000 employees. And right now, as we go into the holiday season, that is crazy. Amazon up to 30,000 employees. Also crazy. Intel 24K, Nestle 16 Verizon 15 Accenture 11. Ford 11. Novo Nordisk 9000. Microsoft 7. PwC 5600. Salesforce 4000 IBM 2700. American Airlines 2700. Paramount 2000 Target 1800 GM 1500. Applied Materials 1400 Kroger 1000 Meta 600. And then this is the Kobe C Letter says, where will all these people go? Which is a very good question. Then put B5 up on the screen as well. We also have an accelerating number of of bankruptcies. 717 US large companies, this is from that same account, by the way, have gone bankrupt year to date. That's the most in 15 years. This is now higher than every full year total since 2010. And again, that's not even through the end of the year. This also marks the third consecutive annual increase, a 93% jump since 2022. In November alone, 62 large firms filed for bankruptcy after 68, and 66 in October and September. US bankruptcies this year are now running plus 30% above the annual average for 2011-2024. Corporate bankruptcies are surging outside of the AI trade. And we covered last week the ADP payroll numbers that showed job loss. And there. So this is focused on large firms filing for bankruptcy. The job loss was coming overwhelmingly from small businesses who have really struggled to be able to navigate the political landscape and the tariff landscape. I think in particular, because if you're a large firm, okay, Trump's, you know, the tariffs are on, they're off, et cetera. We've got our stockpiles. We're able to plan in advance. We have the cash to be able to ride this out. It's gonna be okay if you're a Small business, you're kind of doing the equivalent of living pay to paycheck to paycheck. Like you don't have this massive cash reserve where you can just ride things out. You also don't have a million dollars to throw around to go to a Mar a Lago dinner and ask the President for whatever favor you need for your business to be able to make it. So I think that's a big part of the reason why so many small businesses are shuttering right now. And it's also a continuation of a trend of massive corporate consolidation in America that's been ongoing for decades at this point.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, and I mean, I'm a tariff person. I'm looking at this White House rundown right now of new investment, investments in the US since Liberation Day. And there's a lot of really good stuff. But that's not what these ADP numbers. Obviously the ADP numbers are net. So job losses, that's it. When the economy is losing X jobs a month and you have right now tariffs. So basically the big picture is you have the tariffs and the AI revolution happening at the same time. And, and we will look back on this period in 10 years as I think similar to what we will end up or what we already end up looking back with.

The Clinton and Bush administration, trade opening up, nafta, wto. I think we're actually going to start looking back at this within 10 years as a really similar time period. And David Obi, Democrat, who represented this district in northern Wisconsin, very rural district, for a long time, he looked back after NAFTA and said he regretted voting for it because he was promised all of this job training and all of these efforts to augment the job losses. And it never happened and it just never materialized and it never worked. And there's a clear lesson from that, which is when you have a revolution happening, like artificial intelligence, that's already, I mean, we're projecting going into next year to have the highest level of college graduate unemployment. It is going to be a bloodbath, especially in entry level jobs. What are all of those people going to do? Truly? I mean, fentanyl deaths, I was just looking at this last night, are still way higher than they were a long time ago. I mean, it's fentanyl, so it's relatively new phenomenon, but they're still way higher than they were in the early days of the opioid epidemic. So you have all of these things happening at the same time. And the Trump administration was supposed to. And what Donald Trump promised, of course, was. And people were, I think, correctly skeptical of it. But what he promised was something that appealed to the hopes of folks who were looking at this and saying, this is a generational scrambling of the world around me after the generational scrambling that, you know, my parents went through and that my town went through. So it's way bigger than I think people realize.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, no, I absolutely think that's correct. And I think people were willing to trade like. Like, it was not a secret to anyone that he has these, like, authoritarian instincts, but they were sort of willing to, okay, well, we'll take some of that because it's an extraordinary time. And, you know, we trust that you're gonna be able to kind of strongman, get things in order and the trains will run on time. And instead you've just gotten the, like, performative cruelty and then mass layoffs. And then, you know, to me, the central theme, like the central thrust of this administration is just giving everything over to the tech oligarchs and saying, okay, okay, off to the races with AI. We're going to grease the skids for you. Deregulate as much as possible so you can win this AI race and hope. And, like, we're going to hope and pray that that just, like, magically fixes everything. And in the process, they're promising to lay off literally everyone and completely disrupt the entire. I mean, completely destroy the existing social contract with little to no thought about what may come after that. That.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I mean, we were talking before we went to air this morning. I always check the morning newsletters to see who sponsors them, because I find it very amusing and depressing. And this morning, the Free Press and Politico's Playbook were both sponsored by Meta. And I went and clicked through the Meta ad to see what Metta was bragging about, because in both ads, it was quote, Meta is investing $600 billion in American infrastructure and jobs. So I went and clicked through. They had a list of all the places around the country where they're doing this. Every single thing. I clicked on said data center. Data center, data center, data center. And that is so harrowing, because a lot of these places, I mean, we have hollowed out factory towns all over the country and places that are still struggling from NAFTA and China and all of that. And you're just going to put up data centers that employ way fewer people and convince these communities to give you big tax breaks, and then if the bubble bursts. Holy shit. I mean, think about that. If an AI bubble bursts and all of these Communities have given tax breaks to these big companies to meta to OpenAI all around the country and they're already not employing all of the people taking up all of this land with data centers. Think about that. It's horrifying.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And the bubble bursting might be the best possible end of the horrible ends, because if you succeed, then it may be even worse in terms of the impact on society. It's gonna be UBI offs.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. I mean, honestly, 20 years UBI, that's.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like, it's not lucky if they don't just decide we're all disposable and good luck.

[Krystal Ball]

And I was gonna say not even like a, not even a humane effort at ubi. It's just going to be shut up and let us bulldoze culture, tech, everything.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. What's the smallest amount we can get away with giving you so that you don't like, literally murder us in our beds? That's what they're, that's the, the point they're going to be aiming for. There.

[Krystal Ball]

They've seen the purge.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Let's go ahead and get to what is going on with these Somalis in Minnesota and I guess, globally. I don't I feel like this is a global effort. So Trump, after calling Somalis garbage, his administration has surged ICE agents into Minnesota. Minneapolis specifically. Tom Homan was questioned on this new operation. Let's take a listen to this.

[Krystal Ball]

That Somali community in Minnesota is about 80,000 people. The vast majority are US citizens or legal residents. So what is the reason for sending ICE there?

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Well, look, we also know there's a large illegal Somali community there. There's illegal alien community, large illegal alien community there. Look, if you're a US Citizen, you know, you don't have nothing to fear.

[Krystal Ball]

The president said very clearly this week that he doesn't want Somali immigrants in America. He called them garbage. Is that the real reason this operation is happening in the Somali community?

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

No, I think President Trump's referring to public safety threats as national security threat from Somalia and every other country.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, he didn't say that.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

He said he's been clear from day.

[Krystal Ball]

One the whole, he talked about the whole community.

[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Well, look, I know the I'm not aware what the President Trump was thinking when he said that, but I agree with President Trump.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So, Emily, I think it's worth people thinking for a moment, too about why we do have such a significant Somali community and, you know, they ended up in Minnesota in particular about why we had these successive waves of Somalis who were brought in, the vast majority of whom, by the way, are U.S. citizens, so they shouldn't be subject to these deportation efforts, even though we know that I has discriminated by color and by their ethnic background in the past.

[Krystal Ball]

Some numbers on that quickly. So not a citizen as of 2023, 9.5% US born, 38.8% naturalized citizen, 45.4%. So it's about one in every 10 is not a citizen.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. So the biggest reason why we have significant Somali population here is you had a civil war in Somalia. It was brutal. And you may ask yourself, did the US play any role in that civil war? And the answer, of course, would be yes.

[Krystal Ball]

And the question is, of course, rhetorical.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, we. You know, we use Somalia basically as a pawn and a plaything. During the Cold War. Flooded the zone with all kinds of US weapons. Also forced this like imf, World bank adjustment, like austerity onto them, which stripped their own domestic capacity to sort of feed themselves and, you know, caused these austerity conditions. We were very important in terms of creating the conditions for the civil war and the fallout and the chaos that made it necessary for people to flee Somalia for other places. So that is, I think, always important, especially as we're contemplating this regime change effort in Venezuela. Like, for the vast majority, you and Saga are pretty much on an island. Correct me if I'm wrong, Emily, in opposing the regime change effort in Venezuela, a lot of the America Firsters, even people who had a problem with war with Iran, are like, yeah, sure, Venezuela. Maduro's a bad guy. Let's go for it. Why the hell not? And I don't wanna hear a fucking word from these people when there is a failed state and another refugee crisis. Like, we are causing those problems. And so if you wanna have fewer migrants, and I think we all should actually want people to have a place where they can live and not have to flee war and famine and devastation, then maybe we should stop destroying and using these countries as pawns and playthings and destroying so many other places around the world. World. Just a thought. In any case, the Somali community has responded in, I think, the most glorious way possible. Like, the most glorious way possible. Mac was saying we need to make all of them citizens just as a reward for their memeing efforts. So in response to these brazen attacks from Trump, calling them garbage, and now the ICE incursion into Minneapolis and all of this, they have been, I guess, playing with memes that take the language that Israelis use to justify their claim of the land of Israel and also claim of Palestine, taking that language and appropriating it themselves and saying, like, Minnesota was promised to us 3,000 years ago and we're the real founding farmers and all of this. It's incredible.

[Krystal Ball]

Sort of like you just said, founding farmers.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Did I really?

[Krystal Ball]

Amazing. Great restaurant. We love it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Founding fathers.

[Krystal Ball]

They would probably claim that as well. These Mimirs are so good. They would probably be like, we created founding, founding farmers.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They actually were involved in that creation.

[Krystal Ball]

I think it's from the North Dakota Farmers Union. And there are Somalis in North Dakota.

[Saagar Enjeti]

There you go.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm pretty sure Ilhan Omar went to college in North Dakota.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So in any case, founding fathers, founding farmers, they're claiming it all. Let's go ahead and take a look at one of these memes that this is C3. The way that they are using this lexicon.

[Krystal Ball]

Brothers, behold it. The white land of the north. Snow everywhere, but look, the skyline. Just like on the old drawings.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Three centuries our elders thought, behold, this is minis Somalia.

[Krystal Ball]

Three centuries past. It was promised to us on these horses through the snow.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We have found our land at last. And Emily, I think, honestly, if you oppose this, I think you are anti semolitic, antisomalitic. Need to be called out for that.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, no.

[Saagar Enjeti]

She might be anti sommelite of the week.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, no.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Start that account.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, no.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Let's put up some, some more of these C4. We've got a whole bunch of these. I love them. Okay, so this one says, this is our proposal and it's got a map. It says the west bank and it's like California, Oregon and Washington. And then the New Jersey strip.

We've got. Let's see the next one. This is. Then they zoom in on the quote unquote, West Bank Bank. And it has just like in the west bank in Palestine, all these different areas that are like banjustans and then under control of, they say under Somali control. Under Somali and ANA control occupied by Somali Defense Force. So we've got that one going on. Let's see the next one. Some food appropriation here they say Somali food and it's tacos, egg fried rice, sushi and pizza invented by the Somali 3000 years ago. Play on how the Israelis like to claim lots of Middle Eastern and Mediterranean cuisine. Here we have a series of politicians kissing the Mall of America wall.

[Krystal Ball]

Is this supposed to be Alyssa Slotkin next to Mike Pence and Mike Pompeo between two men, or is it Kirsten Nelson?

[Saagar Enjeti]

I have no idea. For some reason Bill Barr is involved here. We've got, yeah, Mike Pence, Mike Pompeo.

[Krystal Ball]

Might be the Trump one. Cabinet. Yeah, that might be supposed to be Kirsten.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We got some throwbacks here, but I mean, the legacy does of our commitment to the Mall of America goes back. This one Emily was a little uncomfortable with. But this is, you know, this is a famous picture of a guy who was from Brooklyn, right? It says if I Don't steal. Someone else will. And it's a Somali holding up the Somalian flag. So we've got that one as well. You know, some of them are a little, a little problematic.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, some of them are very. I saw one AI rendering of a Somali Stonewall Jackson.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Oh my God, it's a crumb. And now we have a, you know, this sort of infamous like Manifest Destiny picture that DHS account was tweeting out recently. And instead of like a white angel floating over, it's a Somali woman who actually looks a lot like Ilhan Omar who is floating over all of this. So playing with the themes of, you know, the Israeli talking points and colonialism in general. And the thing I've appreciated is they just keep going, like they keep pushing the lore more and more layers, like deeper and deeper.

[Krystal Ball]

More layers, deeper.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And really? Yeah, there's a accounts now that are like, you know, supposed to be like aipac, but Malia. And then there's the accounts that are calling out that account and it's. I'm enjoying the whole thing. I honestly, genuinely like to make a serious point about it. I think it is a really brilliant way to respond to these attacks because, listen, I mean, I think what Trump said should be called on as racist. It is racist. But also, you know, it's not exactly news that Trump uses racism in effectuating his policy and specifically his immigration policy. So if you're just saying, again, this is racist, it's going to not land as much, I think as, since we are all aware of that at this point, as like the trolling here, I think is just another level and a great response.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I mean, yeah, and I'm saying this as somebody who thinks we have wildly underplayed the problem with, of integration. I mean, Somalia is a completely different culture than United States and Minneapolis. This is a country that has a 90, according to UNICEF, a 99.9% rate of, or 99% rate of female genital mutilation. So bringing a culture up into northern Minnesota, where you have such vast gulf, I mean, I think it has genuinely been a very tough assimilation progress. I know people in Minnesota have been feels like they've been screaming into the void about this for at least a decade. That said, this trolling shows assimilation to American meme culture in spades because absolutely it is. I mean, there's nothing more appealing than self deprecating humor. First of all, like across the board, anyone who can be like self deprecating, you realize that there's something kind of funny about the Idea of Somalis walking across, what did they call it? The Great North, Walking across the land.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Is such a potent weapon. And then the other hilarious thing is like, the people online who are taking, taking this seriously, like, this is outrageous. They think this was promised to them 3,000 years ago. And meanwhile they're posting about like, oh, Somali's IQs are low. And it's like, bro, well, so that's how it started.

[Krystal Ball]

And yeah, if people weren't following this closely, that's basically how it started. Is somebody, I don't know who the first person was, but somebody put out a video of somebody, like, dead serious, deadpan, making this claim to camera trolling Israel, saying, we were promised this land. And a couple people fell for it and were like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's like, oh, boy, have I got something even dumber for you.

It's rough.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Look in the mirror, my friends.

[Krystal Ball]

Yikes. Yeah, No, I mean, it's a great, it's been wonderful. It's been a sight to behold.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, humor is a weapon. And this is part of Trump, like, why he gets away with so much is because he's funny. And that is an unfortunate reality of who he is.

[Krystal Ball]

It breaks people's minds, brains.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It does. And so, yeah, if you're trying to otherize a people, which is what they're trying to do, say they don't belong, they don't fit in, they're garbage, they all need to go, blah, blah, blah. And your response is this incredibly relatable, nuanced humor, which is sort of irresistible. Like you're instantly, you're instantly humanizing yourself, number one, instantly demonstrating to your point a high level of cultural competency. And it's disheartening. It's just fundamentally disarming.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And they're playing on. What's funny is that like, obviously these are different cultures with different histories. And that's like, it's great self deprecating humor. And it's like, aware of the, it's not running from the, I don't know, the controversy. It's kind of leaning into it. To your point about Trumpian tactics.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

So it's very, very clever and very, very funny.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, absolutely.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Tom Cotton / Other Interviewees]

Ready, set.

[Krystal Ball]

Ford this is an iHeart podcast.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Guaranteed Human.