← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
12/8/25: Jan 6 MAGA Pipe Bomber, Hillary Doubles Down On TikTok And Israel, Sydney Sweeney Backtracks After Flops
00:54:00
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- [00:00]
Krystal Ball
This is an I Heart Podcast Guaranteed Human.
- [00:04]
Sophie Cunningham
This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.
- [00:43]
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- [01:44]
Saagar Enjeti
Sager and Crystal here.
- [01:45]
Krystal Ball
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of the show.
- [01:52]
Saagar Enjeti
This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [01:58]
Krystal Ball
So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [02:09]
Saagar Enjeti
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breakingpoints.com.
- [02:17]
Krystal Ball
All right, let's go ahead and move on to these updates with regard to the pipe bombing suspect who has now been apprehended by the FBI. So you guys covered this on Friday, but there were Some updates that happened on Friday that we wanted to make sure to get in here as well. So let's put D1 up on the screen. And you guys probably know this, like, this pipe bomber has been a real fixation on the. Right. And I understand why, because it's like, okay, this was a serious out, like, pipe bombs were placed outside the RNC and the dnc, and this just never. We just never solved this case. Like, really, in this age of mass surveillance, we can never freaking figure this out. Oh, on Capitol Hill? Yeah, on Capitol Hill. And Kamala Harris was going in the dancing. We never figured this out.
- [03:02]
Saagar Enjeti
Yep.
- [03:03]
Krystal Ball
So in any case, they apprehend this guy, and the initial thing that was put out is he was an anarchist. Okay. Well, now they're saying. During interviews with the FBI, the suspect told investigators he believed the 2020 election was stolen, providing perhaps the first indication of a possible motive for the bombs placed near the DNC and the RNC headquarters. So basically, it looks, according to this interview and this report, that he was a stop the steal guy. And the reason I give this credence is because this is not what, like, a cash Patel FBI would want him to say that his motive is definitely right. And that's why I think when the government or any source says something that is sort of against their interests, you can give it more credence. Not to say you shouldn't be still skeptical of the narrative. Whatever. That's like your responsibility to ask questions and question the government, especially when they're making claims. But if it's a claim that goes against their partisan ideological interests, I do think that that is worth giving more credence than something that just, like, fits really neatly with what they would want this narrative to be. So anyway, apparently they brought this guy in, and Pirro, Jeanine Pirro is saying, like, oh, he was an equal opportunity. He hated both parties. That may also be the case, but in any case, he at least bought into these stop the steal narratives.
- [04:21]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, the story is deeply weird, and I have all kinds of skepticism about the story, period. But just on this. Not Kendallanean right away, who is very tethered to kind of like deep state, for lack of a better word. People who are like careers at the FBI. Basically, he's. I forget who called him Fusion Ken, but that was because he was reporting so much on the Fusion GPS stuff. Maybe that's a Glenn Greenwald ism back in the Russia collusion days. But he reported right away, before the suspect was named. But when we knew that there had been an arrest that he had, quote, anarchist leaning, anarchist leanings, and that was sourced to two people with knowledge. And now Cash Patel and Dan Bongino are getting asked about all of this. They're getting asked about the fact that this guy worked for his dad's bail bond company that worked with Benjamin Crump, very ideological attorney from the left, as they were bailing out immigrants in jail. And they're not going much further. And now we get this, that he's also stopped the steal. And Patel and Bongino are kind of punting on it and saying we don't want to interfere in the legal process. So I think Bongino has said this is chapter one of a 10 to 20 chapter book. And so just over the last five days, everyone's like, well, so what's actually going on right now? What is actually happening with Brian Cole, who was discovered seemingly out of nowhere with information that Patel and Bongino said existed at the FBI for years. And if you read through the affidavit, they're essentially connecting the dots between phone records, license plates, records, purchases, hardware purchases. So pipe end caps, things that are really specific wires, that sort of thing. Also, though, that were bought after January 6th. So the affidavit lists out all of these purchases, a couple of them that go into January, late January, after January 6th. So it's a very, very strange. The entire story right now is strange, and it could be cleared up fairly quickly if the FBI opens up and explains some of these inconsistencies and just question marks. But right now, I mean, there's just such a vacuum of clear explanations. It's like, what the hell is this story supposed to be?
- [06:40]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, well, and if we think about a motive and why it would make sense if you're a stop the steal person to plan a bomb, both at the DNC and the rnc. The DNC part, okay, that's obvious, right? You're mad that the election was stolen. You think they were complicit, whatever. But I mean, there was a lot of upset, too, at the mainstream Republican Party, in a sense that they weren't doing enough to go along with, to just, quote, unquote, stop this deal and to go along with Trump's election lies and delusions. So does make a level of sense that if that is your motivation, you would be going after both the DNC and the RNC and just generally looking to cause fear and chaos on that particular day. Another, I don't know if you could call it funny, but whatever you want to call this ironic. Yeah, we'll call it amusing. Put D2 up on the screen. Element of this is itself possible that with Trump's very broad pardoning of the J6 rioters, that he may have accidentally also pardoned this guy. So this, this says Mr. Trump, in one of his first official acts after returning to the White House this year, issued a grant of clemency to the nearly 1600 rioters charged in connection with the Capitol attack. His clemency proclamation was extraordinarily broad, covering all defendants accused or convicted of, quote, offenses related to events that occurred at or near the U.S. capitol on January 6, 2021. At or near. It is possible defense lawyers will ultimately try to argue that the placing of the pipe bomb should also be covered by Mr. Trump's proclamation. I'm not a lawyer, but I mean, it seems like they could definitely make that case because offenses related to. I mean, it was certainly related to the events. It certainly occurred at or near the US Capitol. It was on January 6th. So I don't know, I mean, maybe technically, did he actually place the bombs on January 5th?
- [08:43]
Saagar Enjeti
Yes, but I think that might still be covered because it's at or near. I mean, they were discovered on January 6 with timers that I bet are going to be argued. I mean, that's another very strange part of this. It looks like one hour. I mean, if people haven't seen the pictures of the bomb, I keep telling everybody of the pipe bombs, I keep telling people to Google them because they are the most cartoonish looking like Looney Tunes asked devices where they have kitchen timers strapped like literal oven timers strapped to these pipes with the wires on the outside and all of that. And so these look like one hour timers. So are the timers being controlled remotely to detonate on January 6th? That could be a pretty crucial question because if the administration wants to put screws to this guy, they're gonna wanna say that these devices were created, were viable. We've already seen them hinting at that for January. So it might not be wiggle room on the date, actually, if the date is the problem, because it seems like what they're trying to insist is that January 6th, these were intended to disrupt the process.
- [09:47]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. So I don't know. That's an interesting one. We'll definitely continue to follow those developments. Emily, can you talk a little bit about some of the theories that have been percolating on the right and how the right is responding to these developments?
- [09:58]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, let's put D3 on the screen. So this is from an account called 59 Crimes. And this is where you're definitely starting to see the anti deep state. Right. Split into two. So on the one hand you have people like Julie Kelly who have covered this story really closely from the MAGA perspective for a long time and does seem to think that Cash and Dan have the right guy. Then on the other hand, you have.
- [10:24]
Some of the more skeptical folks. I mean, Thomas Massie has already insisted he's not buying the story. This thread that we have up on the screen now, it's called the Five Year Fuse. It's not even a thread. It's a published article on X. You can do that now, very long. That casts doubt on the official story that Brian Cole is the man in question. And Kyle Seraphin, others still seem to be pretty set on the idea actually that the person the Blaze named and then retracted the report about this is D4. We can go ahead, put this up on the screen. Some people seem to be still pretty serious about, and this was in the 459article we just had on the screen too, that the person that Blaze named and then retracted the article naming them, that that person was or is still in their opinion the likelier suspect and that Cole is a patsy. So that's where this is going. I don't know. I mean, Crystal, I honestly am trying to reserve my judgment in this entire case because the FBI is continuing to say they don't want to interfere in the legal process, they don't want to taint jury pools or whatever and isn't giving us a lot of information about what's actually going on. It sounds like Cole is cooperating. Patel and Bongino have said they've talked to him, they've interviewed him. They're so sure that he's the right guy. I mean.
- [11:48]
Soft theory. I think somebody definitely planted that story with the Blaze because I've gone back and read it a couple of times. And I mean to say somebody within the government, it seems to me, planted that story with the Blaze, which is a really weird thing to do, obviously to name a specific, specific person.
- [12:05]
Krystal Ball
Right.
- [12:05]
Saagar Enjeti
Who also, by the way, had FBI outside the house, next to their house, when the Blaze was scoping out the house before the reporting. Which again, just, it could mean a million different things. But it does seem to me that there's something very fishy happening with some faction of people, whether it's at the FBI or elsewhere, who were trying to deflect, divert or pin this person, knowing that another person was about to be Found it could be the like tickling the wire approach where they dangled that to the Blaze to see how Bryan Cole reacted. Because the story of.
- [12:42]
The Blaze story popped right when they said they had a break in the case. So four to five weeks ago, the timeline matches up exactly. So maybe they were trying to plant a story in the media to see how Brian Cole would react. No idea. But there's something really strange happening with this story and I don't know what it is. I don't want to speculate recklessly, but I think clearly if you go back and look at the Blaze's sourcing, they had people in the government pointing them in the direction of this person at the CIA who they've retracted the claim about. So weird shit.
- [13:13]
Krystal Ball
Well, I never put a lot of stock in that, even though I've been following this pipe bomber thing as well. Cause it's genuinely like, whoa, what happened with that? That was a significant event. And then it just never got resolved. And so I ride the Blaze's thing and I didn't put much stock in it because it was based on a gate analys like her date matter. And like this seems like bullshit. Like I'm gonna wait on this one and see what transpires. But they did have to your point. They claim to have sources from inside the administration that were also saying, oh, this is the lady. Which is part of why when they were challenged on it, they were so like, no, we stand by our reporting. They were very adamant. There's also weird tie in with like Tulsi Gabbard in the office of the DNI where they either. I don't know if they originated this or they wrote up. It was very unclear from the reporting. They just wrote this up, the Blazes information as like a tip. But in any case, what I definitely got out of it is that she and her whole team are very much on the outs. Apparently the pissed people off too because they were looking into the Tyler Robinson investigation to see if there was anything else there that was being missed. I think there was another instance too where they, you know, stuck their noses in, in the way that the rest of the administration was not happy with. But what did you make of that? That Tulsi Gabbard piece?
- [14:31]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, so it's very weird. What seems to be the case for media reports. The claim at least is that the Blaze went to the government and maybe the Blaze got a tip from inside the dni. Like that's how circular these stupid intelligence leaks can happen sometimes. Right. Went to the ODNI Office of the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard with this idea that it was this person. Again, they've retracted the claim that currently works at the CIA in security, at the time was in Capitol Police. And from there, the Blaze then, because the DNI wrote the memo up, the Blaze then was able to report the story because they reported on the DNI memo, which gives you a hook to say, this is something that exists in the government. It's not just crazy speculation. It's a government memo.
- [15:17]
Krystal Ball
But that could have been circular. It could have been them putting it to the dni. The DNI writes up a memo, then they're able to report on, oh, there's a memo at the dni. So this gives us more credence, and.
- [15:27]
Saagar Enjeti
It can get even crazier than that. Meaning, okay, so this person who, again, the claim was retracted about works at the CIA, worked in Capitol Police, FBI, has been doing this investigation. This is the office of the dni. Did another agency plant it with the Blaze. The Blaze goes to dni. The memo gets written up. And because DNI is desperate to also look like it's solving, moving, you know, and getting to the bottom of a big MAGA case, something that MAGA is really concerned about, they write up the memo, Blaze reports on the memo, and they were played like a fiddle by FBI, CIA or someone else. This stuff sounds crazy, but it does actually happen. A lot of this happened with Russia collusion. So.
- [16:12]
Something is really off about this story. Maybe it'll all be cleared up. But so far, it's extremely weird. And I think people moving on entirely from the Blaze story are probably missing a hint as to how the Deep State was handling this investigation before Cole was arrested.
- [16:28]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, well, you know, I was sort of skeptical when the initial announcement about Cole came out. We should say that in terms of the evidence they're claiming to have against him, they're my understanding, three components, from what I was reading in the indictment. So you've got the assembling of all these parts, right? That the constituent elements of the pipe bombs themselves. Then you have his vehicle is, you know, in the vicinity at the right time, and then you have cell phone pinging in the relevant towers at the appropriate points as well. And then I think there's also, like, you know, a stature analysis. He is, I think, five foot six. The person that's roughly the same, which is why it was credible that maybe is a woman, because it's a relatively small stature person. So those things all fit. And I think There may be some other pieces, but those are the big pieces. Okay. I mean, that's pretty significant in terms of an evidentiary footprint. I became more convinced that this was the guy when he told interviewers. Oh, I was. You know, I didn't believe the Trump election claims because, like I said, that goes very much against what they want the storyline to be. So if you have a suspect that you are claiming to have this evidence on and you have a motive, that isn't really the motive that they were hoping for here, that, to me, made it more credible that this is, in fact, the individual. Because if they were gonna set it up and, like, you know, blame some person who's just a patsy and innocent, whatever, that is not necessarily the storyline that they would want to go with. Because the whole point is to satisfy MAGA here, and MAGA is definitely not gonna be satisfied with someone who did this basically to avenge President Trump and to buy into his claims that the election was stolen, that this was a great crime against the American people.
- [18:15]
Saagar Enjeti
And I also think we should be open to the possibility. So his grandmother has already come out in the press and this just hurts to hear this type of thing, and said that she thinks he's on the spectrum.
- [18:25]
Krystal Ball
Yeah.
- [18:25]
Saagar Enjeti
So I think I'm also open to the possibility that what we're seeing is a disgusting, possibly. I'm not saying this for sure, but possibly exploitation. It's very easy, well, relatively easy, to get people on the spectrum to commit to crimes that they didn't do in confessions. This is a documented phenomena. And so it's possible that there's something going on with that, too. I do not know. Keeping it open to that also. Crystal, just want to mention the big picture, I think, always worth keeping in mind, which is that the implication.
- [19:02]
Of a lot of the conspiracy theories, and I don't say that pejoratively because, again, I'm kind of open to the idea that there's something weird going on with this. But the implication is that the FBI under Trump, by the way, had some role in whipping up the violence on January 6, that either resources were diverted over to the RNC and the DNC at a critical time that is actually true. Or in a way that let security sort of fall apart and people run into the Capitol and create a pretext for mass surveillance of maga, et cetera, or that this could have possibly been. These could have been viable bombs that the FBI was planting, not even just as a setup, but to do real damage and violence and that sort of thing. Just worth Saying again.
- [19:53]
Yes, there were FBI assets at January 6th. True, there are a whole lot of.
- [19:58]
Krystal Ball
Because like half of the Oath Keepers are feds. Yeah, 100% boys and whatever. All of these organizations are top to bottom, chock full of feds.
- [20:07]
Saagar Enjeti
Yep. I'm reading from the Office of the Inspector General for the justice department right now. 26 FBI confidential human sources were in Washington D.C. on January 6th in connection with the events of January 6th. This is from Michael Horowitz. So yes, that did happen a lot of. But another important point is a lot of regular Maga people were caught up on January 6th. Saw it with my own eyes. It was a lot of people who have since come and said, talked about how they got caught up in violence and other. Now that's not everyone, but some people really did. And there were average MAGA folks who got caught up and did awful, horrible things on January 6th. And again, they've since talked about it. So the Fed direction, quote, Fed direction narrative, to the extent this pipe bomb thing could play into it, I'm open to the idea that these were planted as some type of op. But I also just want to say that was not just a quote, Fed's direction. There were a lot of regular people who got caught up in it. And I think it diminishes.
- [21:13]
The sort of lessons from January 6th in a way that I think people should be brutally honest about. To pretend that it was all, I mean, some of it, I'm curious if it was whipped up by Feds. I think that's essential information. We don't have much and I think that's, that's probably possible. But at the same time there are a lot of average people who got caught up in this. And that's, I don't think it's, I don't think it's worth whitewashing that either.
- [21:36]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, absolutely. I mean from the left, my perspective is that you, you, I mean without a doubt you had all these Fed informants and assets within a bunch of these organizations who would have been privy to some of the planning and, but, but many of those people were also sympathetic to the right wing causes. Like even as they're Fed assets are also genuinely sympathetic to right wing causes. And so I think there was a downplaying of the risk even as they were getting intel in that this would turn into the violent, chaotic, you know, disaster that it ended up being. So that's always been my interest in understanding, you know, what they knew and when and how many like human intel sources were involved and were privy to the planning. And if they were there, then why wasn't. Why weren't the Capitol Police more prepared? Why weren't there more precautions taken on that day? So, you know, there's that aspect to it as well. But in terms of the pipe bomb thing, we'll see where it goes. We'll see what other evidence they're able to offer. You should always be skeptical of government claims. But like I said before, the fact it does not fit the narrative they would want it to. To me, gave it more credence than, you know, than if it was just like, very neatly, like, yeah, oh, he was anti. He was actually trans Tifa. I'd be like, he wrote it on the pipe bombs that he was trans Tifa. I'd be like.
- [23:07]
I'm gonna. Let's see some more evidence on that one.
- [23:10]
Saagar Enjeti
The bottom line on this is that they need to tell the full story asap. I get not wanting to interfere in the legal process, and I mean, we've seen our government rush to do dumb stuff over and over again for public relations purposes, but the story is quite odd. So the more information, the better.
- [23:25]
Krystal Ball
Somebody hates the Blaze, apparently.
- [23:27]
Saagar Enjeti
Or. Yeah, yeah. I mean, somebody was trying to.
- [23:30]
Krystal Ball
Somebody hates the Blaze and, you know, really screwed them over because they look. I mean, it's humiliating for them that they directly accused this one woman and who had an, Like, a very easy alibi. Like, here's a video of me playing with puppies on that day. Guess it wasn't.
- [23:47]
Saagar Enjeti
Well, that I clearly was not me. Sorry. But, like, that's another part of the story to me that I'm just like, what the. You name a person who has this. Who works at the CIA and has a literal video at the exact time of the bomb being planted of her with her dog. Yeah, what the heck? Like, it's a lot they're asking us so far, by not filling in the gaps, they're asking us to believe a lot. So, hey, I'm open to it. Want to see the information. It's a crazy story.
- [24:13]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. I want to know who's out to get the Blaze in this administration.
- [24:17]
Saagar Enjeti
I think one of the benefits of the last, like, 10 plus years is the right. Developing this deep skepticism of the intelligence agencies, the intelligence community, which seems to be not unsurprisingly lapsing as they have retaken the intelligence community. But I feel like this is just a great, surprising. I mean, it's a great reminder of why that skepticism. Those seeds were planted during Trump. One that should be continuing to blossom into, like, permanent skepticism of these agencies.
- [24:49]
Sophie Cunningham
This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.
- [25:28]
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- [27:01]
Krystal Ball
All right, should we check in with with our friend Hillary Clinton here?
- [27:03]
Saagar Enjeti
Why would we not?
- [27:05]
Krystal Ball
So what was this conference? Was that some like Doha Conf. Doha Security Conference Security Conference. Tucker Carlson was also there for reasons I don't really know, but in any case.
- [27:15]
Saagar Enjeti
Oh, the Global Security Forum in Doha.
- [27:17]
Krystal Ball
Okay, so she's reemerging the Doha Forum. Okay, sorry, Doha Forum. She has reemerged because she wants us all to know that we just don't understand what's going on with Israel, Palestine and that the real problem is not Israel murdering, mass murdering babies with our support. The real problem is TikTok. So she said this. We covered it last week. Now she was sort of questioned, more aggressively questioned on these comments and asked to defend them, which she did. Let's take a listen to that.
- [27:47]
Donald Trump
I want to talk about you now. You've been in the news this past week for some comments you made at an event in New York organized by the newspaper Israel Hayam. And I'm going to paraphrase here, but you said that smart, well educated young Americans are getting their news from social media and from TikTok. And you went on to say that this is how they're learning about what happened on October 7th and then what happened in Gaza in the months that followed. And it appears that this, this was a broader lament on your part about declining support among Americans for Israel. That comment has generated a lot of controversy and it's led Congressman Ro Kunna, for example, to point out that I don't think the answer is to disparage the intelligence of young people. It's been a few days now since you've said that. How are you reflecting on your words and the controversy around it?
- [28:41]
Hillary Clinton
Well, I think it is a provable fact that most Americans and a even bigger percentage of young Americans get their news from social media. If that is controversial, then people are not paying attention to how is that a bad thing? I don't know if it's a bad thing, but I think it's an incomplete. We are not going to implement the 20 point peace plan or any other peace plan unless people come with some sense of historical perspective and empathy about how we're going to move people toward what I still believe is the only realistic outcome, a two state solution. And we're not going to get there if people, you know, when they say from the river to the sea and you say what river and what sea? And they don't know which has personally happened in conversations that I've had.
- [29:33]
Donald Trump
And I can't gauge how well young people grapple with history. But what I can speak to is they're grappling with the here and now and they are witnessing images that are live streamed that are coming out every day. You know, and yes, there is misinformation and disinformation, but a lot of it is real. And I think there's a genuine anger in the United States and around the world that some of that anger is deflected.
- [30:00]
Hillary Clinton
But Ravi, I'm angry about all of the human rights abuses. I'm angry about all of the excessive use of force. I'm angry about what happened on October 7th in Israel and what happened in Gaza. I'm angry about what Russia's doing in Ukraine. I'm angry about Sudan. I'm angry about the Eastern Congo. I mean, I think we should be all looking at the tragedies and the conflicts that are bringing about so much suffering and be dealing with them. That's why the national security strategy is not to my liking, because I think the United States has an important role in trying to resolve these conflicts and alleviate the suffering and give people a chance to have peaceful, prosperous lives. That should be our goal. That is in America's interest. I don't care where in the world you are. So, of course the suffering in Gaza is horrific, full stop. Suffering everywhere is horrific.
- [31:05]
Krystal Ball
Suffering everywhere is horrific. And I mean, she uses a lot of tactics there that we've seen deployed before. I mean, first of all, just suffering in Gaza, no attribution of blame, of course, no attribution of blame on the United States, no attribution of blame on Israel, as if this is just like a natural disaster that occurred. And oh my gosh, these poor children. If only someone would do something. But no direct assignment of blame. That's one thing. And then the other one of, well, suffering everywhere is horrific with the suggestion. The suggestion always the subtext there always is that, well, you only care about this one because you're anti Semitic is basically the subtext there. And if you honestly as focused on other suffering other places in the world, it can only be because you're anti Semitic. And also an attempt to just sort of diffuse and deflect of like, well, of course I care about that, but I care about other things as well. So let's talk about those other things and not so much talk about this one. So classic sort of liberal Zionist, I would say, deflection tactics. Not to mention the original assertion from her in the original comments and reasserted here as well that, well, it's just complicated and you just don't really understand.
- [32:16]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, well, I mean, there's a little bit of an irony here in that people who make the argument Clinton was just laying out about this being rooted in anti Semitism and the tell being that People are obsessed with this particular conflict. People right now who make that argument are very upset about this forum being in Doha and Tucker Carlson going and all of these other people taking money from Qatar. The United States supporting Qatar. Why? Well, because the United States is involved with Qatar. That is the same reason that people are upset, particularly about Israel, Palestine. It's that they don't, like, they believe as Americans, they have a responsibility to. They have an obligation to follow this particular conflict so closely because it is so heavily dependent on us involved. Yeah, a fifth of Israel's annual military budget. That might even be an understatement.
- [33:17]
The permission structure that Netanyahu was reliant on, whether it was Biden or Trump to continue prosecuting the war, that is the reason for the level of attention. And I remember, obviously, as somebody who is Christian, the treatment of Christians in Nigeria is, like, horrifying to me. But a lot of times that is used by people on the right to say, see the anti Semitists, they don't care what's happening to the Christians in Nigeria. It's like a couple of months ago, I was like, all right, I'm looking it up. I'm going to see how much money, how much aid is in one place versus the other. It's not even close. I mean, in terms of like, percentage of. Even if you look at percentage of annual budgets, what does USAID constitute? So it's obvious. I mean, it's just that line drives me up a wall because of course it's true that some anti Semites are completely obsessed with Israel and will find any reason to criticize Israel at every turn because they're anti Semitic. Of course that's true. But to impugn the motives of people who care about this particular.
- [34:22]
Conflict, because the US Has a heavy level of involvement, it's the same reason people make the arguments about you. I mean, it's just Ukraine, like, it's just all. It's sophistry dressed up as sophistication. By the way, the guy who was doing that interview, I was like, wow, I need to look up who that was, because it was really well handled. That was Ravi Agrawal of Foreign Policy. I was actually just on his podcast and his voice was familiar. I was like, I knew who that is. Fantastic job sticking it to her and saying, this is different than what you're saying it is.
- [34:56]
Krystal Ball
Yeah.
- [34:56]
Saagar Enjeti
You said one thing. I mean, even asking her about that, I thought was pretty bold because she's the type of person that is now seen as like.
- [35:05]
An August States woman.
- [35:06]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. Sort of unimpeachable character. Yeah, all sorts of things.
- [35:10]
Saagar Enjeti
Right. And people use these opportunities to sort of fawn over her.
- [35:13]
Krystal Ball
Yes. And be very deferential.
- [35:14]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah. So I thought that was actually really impressive.
- [35:18]
Krystal Ball
You know, what I've witnessed too is, I mean, first of all, to your point, there is just no other country that we have a comparable relationship to as Israel. No, like there is just no other country. That is part of what makes the Somali memes so funny. Right. It's because they're, they're posture like they have all this influence, all this money behind them and a packed back. Of course they don't. Right. I mean, not nearly on the scale, if they do nothing like the scale of what Israel has in terms of their influence operation here, in terms of what has been lockstep bipartisan support for decades that is only now coming unraveled. And so there's just nothing comparable that you could point to of another country that has similar level of influence, similar type relationship as we do with this one nation. So that's one thing too. But you know, I'll tell you, as someone on the left, what I've witnessed is as people have had their eyes open to our malign influence in terms of, you know, the horrors that are being perpetrated in Gaza. It has made them more open to, okay, well what's going on in Sudan, because you know, with, with RSF and this horrific massacres that they're perpetrating and we aren't the ones directly sending those bombs, but our ally the UAE is backing them and we are certainly in a position to put pressure on them to end their support of rsf. We are certainly in a position to use our influence there. And so what I've witnessed isn't that people are like, oh, I only care about Gaza, they exclusion of everything else. In fact, what I've witnessed is people sort of that being one area where they go in really deep and that opens their eyes to other ways that we are impacting events around the world and yes, other horrors that are being perpetrated as well and to sort of expand their horizons rather than narrowing their focus just to this one place.
- [37:05]
Saagar Enjeti
I mean, of course it wasn't anti Semitism that made people mad about what was happening in Nicaragua and El Salvador. It was US support. Right. Like in the 1980s, it was US support. The 70s, the 80s, it was literally the very obvious issue of US support for backing death squads, all that sort of thing. And again, that is, I think, as far as I Can tell it's a pretty similar side by side of people who were furious at the US not because they really, in every case, it wasn't that people were sympathetic to the Sandinistas. They were like average Americans. Congress said that we could no longer fund it because average Americans were like, hey, this is pretty bad.
- [37:50]
There are priests that are being killed by people using US weapons and US money and getting US backing. So it wasn't just Sandinista sympathists who were upset about that. It was people who were upset about cruelty backed by US support.
- [38:05]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, the US tax dollar is going that evil.
- [38:09]
Saagar Enjeti
Yes. And so argue against the actual argument. Stop making shit up. It's not helping anyone.
- [38:15]
Krystal Ball
What about this? What about that? You don't get it. It's complicated. The problem's TikTok like all of this. It just feels so tired at this point too. And out of touch at this late date. So out of touch. So tired and just really quite pathetic. I mean, I think if the biggest thing is, you know, Hillary Clinton is not a person without knowledge and skill. He's been in the political arena for a lot of years at this point. And for this to be the best that she can do on behalf of the Zionist cause, I think shows you how much all of their arguments have just been thoroughly discredited and thoroughly destroyed. And that's why you see within the Democratic Party support for Israel. I mean, it's dead, it's done, it's over. And you're going to see that. You're already seeing this playing out in a lot of Democratic primaries right now. It is an earthquake within the Democratic Party. It's an earthquake among young people in a really bipartisan manner.
- [39:12]
Saagar Enjeti
Well, I was just gonna say, I mean, Hillary Clinton is, like, seen as a leading figure in the Democratic Party. Not without reason. I mean, she's the presidential nominee 10 years ago and she is so, like, clearly out of touch with where the party is. I mean, has she talked to a significant number of young Democrats? Because she's calling them anti Semitic right here. Like she's calling them anti semitic or stupid and stupid. Yeah, yeah. And it's just such a giant cope rather than actually grappling with. It's not making their. It's not making the situation any easier at all. It's like how Republicans use, We were talking about this earlier in the show, Obamacare to not cope with health care problems. Like people actually want a better health care system. You can't just keep saying, repeal Obamacare, repeal Obamacare. You have to actually deal with their argument.
- [40:02]
Krystal Ball
Mainstream Democrats are used to these sorts of arguments coming at them from like a fringe group. And her husband code. Yeah, her husband, you know, really like, pioneered the strategy of like punching left, right and using that as a way to bolster his credibility. And they just have this instinct for always doing that. And they haven't realized the way, or she hasn't anyway realized the way the ground has shifted where it's like, no, this isn't just, you know, this isn't just Bernie supporters or Bernie Bros or fringe lefts or Democratic. So, like, this is. This is the entire Democratic Party at this point that agrees with this position. And you are in line with maybe like 10% of where the Democratic Party base is at this point. So when you're punching left right now, you're punching like 90% of the party.
- [40:51]
Saagar Enjeti
Another good example of why that Agrawell question was important. Because if people don't publicly push her on that, she doesn't even know.
- [40:59]
Krystal Ball
Yeah.
- [40:59]
Saagar Enjeti
I mean, like, she just attributes it all to anti Semitism.
- [41:01]
Krystal Ball
Right. And takes off.
- [41:03]
Saagar Enjeti
Or idiocy.
- [41:03]
Krystal Ball
Right.
- [41:04]
Saagar Enjeti
When you have, like the editor in chief of foreign policy doing it on stage and it's going to go viral. Yeah.
- [41:08]
Krystal Ball
It's very patronizing.
- [41:09]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah. You have to cope with that.
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- [43:52]
Krystal Ball
All right, shall we get to Sydney Sweeney here? Excited about this? Let's just F3 up on the screen and then we'll get to what is actually a bigger story. But the Sydney Sweeney one, we're going. Cause it's more fun. In any case, we're used Sydney Sweeney.
- [44:05]
Saagar Enjeti
To talk about antitrust.
- [44:06]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, that's right. That's right. And Tim Dillon, I made that connection earlier as well with the vibe shift.
- [44:11]
Saagar Enjeti
Yes.
- [44:12]
Krystal Ball
Okay, so you guys will remember she did this interview. What was the outlet? It was like gq, right? That she sat down with the recent one, this interview that went super viral, especially on the right. Because she got asked about the eugenics.
- [44:28]
Adjacent nature of the American Eagle ad that she cut. And she said at that point she was like, when I have something to say on an issue, you'll hear from me. And sort of like shut her down in that moment. So I was like, oh, this is amazing. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. Then her movie that came out totally bombed at the box office, the one about a, like, queer boxer that she put on a bunch of weight for it was very sort of like artsy film. Haven't seen it. I don't know if it was good or bad, but I know it did very poorly at the box office. In any case, now she's talking to People magazine and her tone is a little bit different here. Emily. She says, I was honestly surprised by the reaction. I did it because I love the jeans and love the brand. I don't support the views. Some people chose to connect to the campaign. Me being one of those people. Many have assigned motives and labels to me that just aren't true. So she keeps a vague. Right. She doesn't directly disavow, like, eugenics or MAGA or white nationalism or any of that. Right. Any of the sort of, like, broad groups that have embraced her. She doesn't directly disavow them, but clearly very different tone being struck here and her wanting to sort of clean up what I guess she and her PR team. Because all these actors, you really shouldn't think of them as individual people, you know, you should think of them as, like, a whole team and a brand. It's a business, it's a corporation.
- [45:53]
Saagar Enjeti
It's Sydney Sweeney Inc.
- [45:54]
Krystal Ball
Exactly. And so clearly Sydney Sweeney Inc. Decided that this direction was not going all that particularly well for her and there needed to be a recalibration.
- [46:02]
Saagar Enjeti
It's so funny because this is given as a statement to People magazine.
- [46:06]
Krystal Ball
Yes.
- [46:07]
Saagar Enjeti
Right. So it's not like she put this on Instagram or anything. This is a complete, like, why does it sound like it's not Sydney Sweeney? Because it's not Sydney Sweeney.
- [46:15]
Krystal Ball
It sounds like Workshop pr. Yeah. Statement.
- [46:18]
Saagar Enjeti
She goes on to say, this might even be chatgpt. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm trying to bring people together. I'm against hate and divisiveness. In the past, my stance has been to never respond to negative or positive press. But recently I have come to realize that my silence regarding this issue has only widened the divide, not closed it.
- [46:35]
Krystal Ball
Anym dashes in there.
- [46:36]
Saagar Enjeti
Not. Not yet. Yeah. Actually not all. Then she goes, so I hope this new year brings more focus on what connects us instead of what divides us. I mean, come on. A statement to People magazine.
- [46:46]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, it's pretty funny.
- [46:46]
Saagar Enjeti
I don't even know, like. Like, if this were in politics.
- [46:51]
You wouldn't run with this statement as news because it's such a pr. It's like running a press release for Sydney Sweeney basically to just go with this as a quote, exclusive, which is what People magazine did. I get it. It's entertainment. News. But, yes, clearly somebody on the team was like Sydney Sweeney with Gen Z, which is true. Gen Z girls are kind of her. Should be, I would imagine, her Target demo, but I don't think they are. Well, I mean, I'm sure it's men, but, like, for selling jeans, you would want your value to American Eagle is that you're selling women's jeans. And so if she wants to keep getting deals like the American Eagle one, she has to have some appeal with younger women. And younger women are, like, liberal. Like, increasingly liberal.
- [47:38]
Krystal Ball
They're gonna side with Zendaya in that fight.
- [47:40]
Saagar Enjeti
Oh, my gosh. 10 times out of 10. Yeah, no, I literally was just writing a piece about this. Like, young women are. They're accelerating to the left. And so the vibe shift did not come for young women. The vibe shift came for young men, not young women. And so clearly, Sydney Sweeney's teams, like. And I wonder actually if this is influenced at all by American Eagle. Middle of Christmas season, Christmas shopping season, people should be asking for their American Eagle jeans. I definitely got American Eagle jeans for Christmas, like, 20 years ago. So I wonder if it has something to do with American Eagle sales, too.
- [48:14]
Krystal Ball
Could be. Could be. I mean, I am curious what kind of factored into this. And I mean, in terms of her personal views, it almost doesn't really matter. Like, she did. She registered as a Republican in Florida, so we know she has. And recently. So, like, during, you know, Trump 2.0 and MAGA and the vibe shift and whatever, she registers as a Republican in Florida, which is a choice. So, you know, I mean, think we have a general sense of what her political leanings are. She comes from a conservative family. Whatever. I do not buy that she and her whole team. Because again, we're not just talking about Sydney Sweeney. We're talking about a whole team that they did not realize what they were flirting with in that American Eagle ad. I think they knew. I think they were fully in with the vibe shift, thought she could be a sort of pinup for the right, and was, by the way, and already was occupying that space. So they thought, okay, this is a good way to lean into this. This is where the culture is going to. This will help us. Like, this is where we are now. And so we're gonna play with these concepts that are in the air, that are a little edgy and controversial for fun and profit. And so she did that and thought that that was, like, the lane for her to occupy. Up until recently, when you have a political vibe shift, which is why I connected this to Tim Dillon and his comments. You have a very clear political vibe shift. Whatever vibe shift young men had been caught up in that is also dissipated. I mean, the numbers for Trump among young men are almost as devastating as they are among young women.
- [49:42]
Saagar Enjeti
Although on cultural issues, young men are still attracted to certain things that young women aren't, certain cultural questions.
- [49:51]
Krystal Ball
They're still more liberal than every other generation.
- [49:54]
Saagar Enjeti
They absolutely are. Just meaning that there's a gulf culturally between young men and young women. Young men have different opinions on trans immigration. Like, they tend to still be polarized from women on.
- [50:05]
Krystal Ball
Those may be the case. But in terms of affirmative support for maga, totally different. Dead and gone, right? Absolutely. And if you're doing an American Eagle brand, I mean, she really created a brand that wasn't really pitching herself to young women. It really was leaning hard into the male gaze. The problem with that is, number one, there's no loyalty there. Right. The minute you put on some weight and do an artsy film, they're like, I'm not going to do that. Like, what are you doing? That's not what I'm here for. Right.
- [50:30]
Saagar Enjeti
You're an athlete.
- [50:31]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. Like, the minute you hit a certain age, it's over for you or show any sign of aging, it's over. If that's what you're caning towards, there's not gonna be any loyalty or longevity there. And if you're trying, American Eagle carries genes for men and women or young people of any gender. So the male audience matters there. But, yeah, if you are wanting to sell to women, you're really sort of isolating yourself and ostracizing yourself from that part of the market. So, you know, I don't know that the box office bomb, and this wasn't her first box office bomb, by the way, that that really had anything directly to do with, like, the MAGA flirtation and all these sorts of things. But maybe her team feels like it did. Maybe she feels like it did. Maybe the dynamics with Zendaya were also, like, personally taxing for her. I don't know. But to me, it's sort of emblematic of a movement in the culture that we see in other, you know, in other spaces.
- [51:30]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah. I mean, and this gets into our next story because, you know, Hollywood is still not like an easy place to be seen as, quote, pro Trump. And I bet people were uncomfortable working for Sydney Sweeney with this new reputation that she was getting as someone who's like, hardcore MAGA and is like a. Almost a mascot for maga. So I'm sure some of that was uncomfortable, but just to get into the antitrust component, we can put F2 on the screen. I'm sorry, we can. One second. We actually have a clip of Donald Trump, who was on the red carpet of the Kennedy Center Honors last night, which he hosted. We should know. Donald Trump hosted the Kennedy Center Honors. Maybe that'll be a presidential tradition. So glad that Joe Biden didn't do that. Actually, we could have gotten some great moments out of Joe Biden attempting to host a late night Kennedy Center Honors. Yeah.
- [52:20]
Krystal Ball
Amazing.
- [52:21]
Saagar Enjeti
So Trump is asked about this attempted merger between Netflix and Warner Brothers and says something very interesting on the red carpet last night at the Kennedy Center. Let's roll this.
- [52:32]
Donald Trump
Allowed to buy.
- [52:33]
Saagar Enjeti
Warner Brothers should. Well, that's the question. They have a very big market share. And when they have Warner Brothers, you know, that chair goes up a lot. So I don't know. That's going to be for some economists to tell. And also. And I'll be involved in that decision, too. Did they make. They have a very big market share. Did he make any guarantees to you about the merger if they do merge? No, no, not the. He came up. He was in the Oval Office last week. I have a lot of respect for him. He's a great, he's a great person.
- [53:00]
Krystal Ball
But he's done one of the greatest.
- [53:02]
Saagar Enjeti
Jobs in the history of movies and other things. He's. And he's got a lot of interesting things happening aside from what you're talking about. But it is a big market share. There's no question about it. So that is, I mean, he said, I'll be involved in that decision. There you go. Now we can put F2 on the screen. This is the Netflix CEO. Not a surprising story at all. But this is Ted Sarandos meeting with, according to Bloomberg, Donald Trump in the Oval Office, as Trump just mentioned actually in the clip. And so the connection was, to me, Sweeney Gristle, basically, is that the vibe shift sort of came last year. We'll remember, like this exact time last year. It looked like Hollywood, Silicon Valley. We're all getting swept up in kind of reckoning with the reality that they'd alienated a lot of the country and that Donald Trump was going to be mercurial and was gonna wield his power where he wanted you to kind of come kiss the ring in an aggressive way, and then he would reward you in. Reward you back. Now, this deal, this attempted merger, which looks like a pretty clear cut violation of the Clayton act, although none of that Stuff is super clear cut. Cause it depends on how you define market share and all of that. It's already getting criticism from Mike Lee and Republicans and it's getting absolutely panned across Hollywood. There is no love in Hollywood for this. I mean, it's predicted to absolutely decimate theaters. You could understand why. But people are pissed about this. It is not going well for Netflix so far. Well.
- [54:37]
Krystal Ball
And we've got a new factor to add in as well. I think we can add this and post this New York Times tear sheet because we're just learning now. Paramount, headed by David Ellison, is making a hostile bid for Warner Brothers Discovery. I'll just read from this tear sheet. Paramount on Monday mounted a hostile takeover bid for Warner Brothers Discovery, a brazen attempt to secure a Hollywood prize snatched away by Netflix Last week. Netflix announced an $83 billion deal to buy a big part of Warner Brothers Discovery on Friday in an agreement approved by the boards of both companies. In a news release on Monday, Paramount went around the Warner Brothers Discovery board and straight to shareholders with what it called a superior. Paramount said it would pay $30 per share in cash, valuing the company at around $108 billion, including debt. Said it was going to shareholders because the board of Warner Brothers Discovery is pursuing an inferior proposal that would lead to a challenging regulatory approval process. Paramount has offered to buy all of Warner Brothers Discovery, including the Warner Brothers movie studio, the HBO Max streaming service and a portfolio of cable channels, including cnn. The cable channels are not part of the Netflix. We believe our offer will create a stronger Hollywood. David Ellison, the chief executive. Paramount said in a press release it is in the best interest of the creative community, consumers and the movie theater industry. Warner Brothers Discovery had no immediate comment. How about none of these would be in the best interest of creating a stronger Hollywood.
- [56:05]
Saagar Enjeti
How about we stop mergers?
- [56:06]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, I mean, this was expected from David Ellison. And this has been a concern both because obviously of the corporate consolidation, but also because of Ellison's ideological leaning. So he is pro Trump, close Trump ally, very Zionist, pro Israel. You know, we've seen what's going on at cbs. I mean, he's, you know, so we're. The idea here is you have a consolidation of all these media properties now under an like, affirmative, avowed Trump supporter. And so more sort of like state influence on media bleeding over into these other outlets, including HBO Max, including cnn. So obviously really significant. There's. So now you, I guess, have these two rival bids and even more uncertainty about what may ultimately happen here.
- [56:52]
Saagar Enjeti
Right. And what's the goal, I mean, that's Stoler. Matt Stoller over at big, which is the essential newsletter to read if you don't on these questions. And he's been following the Hollywood stuff a lot.
- [57:04]
Absolutely. Open question as to what the goal of Netflix is with this merger. You have to, you basically freeze the assets of the competitor that you're trying to merge with. In a case like this, this. What is, what does David Ellison think is going to come of this? Is he trying to block Netflix from hurting the competitiveness of Warner? Like this is. This is succession level drama, obviously. And I wonder what we're seeing a little bit is somebody like Sarandos and maybe you could argue even Ellison, who, by the way, Trump did get to greenlight the new Rush Hour movie. So something good will come up of this.
- [57:44]
That actually happened. I don't know if you guys. Did you guys cover that?
- [57:46]
Krystal Ball
We didn't, but I did see that it happened.
- [57:48]
Hillary Clinton
Yeah.
- [57:49]
Saagar Enjeti
Just the perfect Trump story in every level. But.
- [57:55]
Was there an overreach that has spawned serious backlash that ends up actually hurting them more than it helps them because they overreached? I don't know. That's, I think, an open question right now. And I think the sort of way that we can make this full circle with Sydney Sweeney is that none of what everyone was feeling this time last year was permanent. And could the Trump administration have come in a second time around and maintained that cultural momentum? I don't know, but it's kind of an interesting counterfactual to ponder.
- [58:26]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, well, and they also came in with a lot of, you know, gestures towards the antitrust movement and some, you know, even personnel decisions that were like, oh, maybe, you know, and some of the antitrust movement started under the first Trump administration and now that's just been basically completely abandoned. And certainly where tech world is concerned, I mean, they're just given whatever, whatever they want. And if you can get in good with Trump, you're going to get your deals approved. And that's pretty much how he operates now. They can use it as a weapon against you. If they hate you, then I don't think anyone would be surprised to see them using it as a weapon instead of just using it as a neutral enforcement mechanism. And that's really one of the things that Trump has completely. Not to say that, that the government's been perfect in terms of being neutral, but the general expectation was that the government bureaucracy would be neutral in its adjudication of these questions. And Trump doesn't even pretend that that's a goal like that's just out the window.
- [59:25]
Saagar Enjeti
And he says he's gonna be involved in the decision. So there's another component of it. If you wanna keep getting in Donald Trump's good graces, you know how to do it. Apparently the Oval Office is open.
- [59:34]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, not hard to figure that one out. All right, guys, well, thank you so much for watching Emily. Thank you for filling in today.
- [59:40]
Saagar Enjeti
I'm always happy to help pick up Sagar slack and then to call him out for slacking. I'll never just do it out of the goodness of my own heart.
- [59:48]
Krystal Ball
I know he appreciates that about you.
- [59:50]
Saagar Enjeti
I'll do it to roast him. That's my real motivation.
- [59:55]
Krystal Ball
I enjoy that aspect of your personality as well. I think it should be Sagar. We'll see how Sagar's doing tomorrow. Should be me and Sagar tomorrow, but we'll see. And in case you guys have a great day, we are going to do I'm going to do the AMA with producer Mac, I think, because Emily has to jump. But if you want to get access to those live AMAs, make sure you sign up@breaking points.com. see you guys soon.
- [60:31]
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- [61:26]
Krystal Ball
Max $100 cash back per month. See terms at Venmo Me Stash terms. Ford was built on the belief that the world doesn't get to decide what you're capable of. You do. So ask yourself, can you or can't you? Can you load up a Ford F150 and build your dream with sweat and steel?
- [61:47]
Saagar Enjeti
Can you chase thrills and conquer curves in a Mustang.
- [61:50]
Krystal Ball
Can you take a bronco to where the map ends and adventure begins? Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right. Ready, set, Forward.
- [62:01]
Saagar Enjeti
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [62:04]
Krystal Ball
Guaranteed Human.