1/28/25: Warhawks Doubt Tulsi Spying Flip Flip, Trump Demands California Voter ID For Aid, AOC Rips Biden To Jon Stewart, Bill Gates Furious With Elon

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode Released: January 28, 2025
Hosts: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Platform: iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

In this episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar, released on January 28, 2025, hosts Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti delve into a multitude of pressing political issues, focusing primarily on the confirmation hearings of former President Trump's nominees, the politicization of federal disaster aid, critiques of the Democratic Party's strategies, and high-profile comments from influential figures like Bill Gates and Elon Musk. The hosts navigate through complex topics with their characteristic anti-establishment perspective, holding those in power accountable.

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Trump's Nominees and Confirmation Hearings

The episode begins with an in-depth discussion about the confirmation hearings for several of Trump's nominees. Krystal and Saagar analyze the potential obstacles faced by nominees like RFK Jr., Tulsi Gabbard, and others within the Senate committees.

• RFK Jr.'s Confirmation Struggles:

  • Krystal Ball highlights RFK Jr.'s upcoming testimony before the Senate Health and Human Services Committee, noting the multiple opportunities he will have to face tough questioning.
  • Quote: "RFK Jr. might get confirmed, but his path is fraught with significant opposition due to his controversial background and recent activities." ([02:40])

• Tulsi Gabbard's Hurdles:

  • Saagar Enjeti emphasizes the intense scrutiny Tulsi Gabbard faces, especially regarding her stance on surveillance and national security.
  • Quote: "Gabbard's flip on 702 and FISA authority seems insincere to some, creating substantial doubt about her suitability for the DNI role." ([07:14])

The hosts discuss the political dynamics at play, including internal Republican concerns and the potential influence of key figures like JD Vance in securing confirmations.

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Politicization of Federal Disaster Aid and Wildfires in LA

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the ongoing wildfires in Los Angeles and the controversial push to tie federal aid to political conditions set by Republicans. Krystal and Saagar critically examine Speaker Mike Johnson's stance on conditioning aid for California, particularly the demand for voter ID laws in exchange for disaster funding.

• Governor Gavin Newsom's Leadership Critique:

  • Krystal Ball criticizes Governor Newsom's management of natural resources, linking it to the severity of recent wildfires.
  • Quote: "California citizens are suffering because of lack of state and local leadership on critical issues like forest and water management." ([09:02])

• Presidential Influence and FEMA:

  • The discussion extends to former President Trump's proposals to overhaul or eliminate FEMA, advocating for state-managed disaster relief.
  • Saagar Enjeti reiterates Trump's stance, questioning the efficacy of federal intervention in disaster response.
  • Quote: "State-managed disaster relief could be less expensive and more efficient, but the reality is no state is currently equipped to handle large-scale disasters alone." ([25:21])

Krystal counters by emphasizing the unpredictability and scale of disasters, arguing against politicizing aid distribution.

• Quote: "Tying political conditions to disaster aid undermines the fundamental principle that federal assistance should be apolitical and based on need." ([28:43])

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Critique of the Democratic Party's Strategies and Credibility

Krystal and Saagar offer a scathing critique of the Democratic Party, focusing on internal inconsistencies and loss of credibility among its base. They discuss how prominent figures like AOC (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez) and others have contributed to a fragmented party dynamic.

• AOC's Stance and Democratic Hypocrisy:

  • The hosts analyze AOC's recent statements criticizing the Democratic Party's handling of internal issues and her confrontational approach towards Democratic leadership.
  • Quote: "AOC's vocal criticism exposes the deep hypocrisy within the Democratic ranks, undermining their ability to present a united front." ([44:18])

• Democratic Party's Loss of Trust:

  • They argue that the Democratic Party has lost the trust of its base due to perceived inconsistencies and a failure to uphold previously stated principles.
  • Quote: "Liberals have had their trust in mainstream institutions shattered, leading to a crisis of credibility that the party struggles to address." ([54:15])

Saagar emphasizes the need for the Democratic Party to overhaul its approach to regain the trust and support of its constituents.

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Influence of Billionaires in Politics: Bill Gates and Elon Musk

The episode transitions to a critical examination of the role billionaires like Bill Gates and Elon Musk play in shaping political landscapes. Krystal Ball and Saagar discuss Gates' controversial remarks and Musk's entrenched position within political frameworks.

• Bill Gates' Comments on Jeffrey Epstein:

  • Krystal Ball highlights Gates' regrettable association with Jeffrey Epstein, critiquing his attempt to distance himself.
  • Quote: "Gates' attempt to portray his association with Epstein as a mistake underscores the ongoing ethical concerns surrounding his influence." ([60:07])

• Elon Musk's Political Maneuvers:

  • Saagar Enjeti points out Musk's significant financial contributions and his efforts to influence political outcomes both in the U.S. and internationally.
  • Quote: "Musk's donations, including the $50 million to Kamala Harris, exemplify how billionaires can distort electoral processes and policy directions." ([60:25])

Krystal further criticizes the Democratic Party's reliance on billionaire donations, arguing that it compromises the party's integrity and public trust.

• Quote: "Campaign finance systems that allow billionaires to heavily influence politics are fundamentally corrupt and undermine democratic principles." ([63:03])

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Conclusion and Future Outlook

In wrapping up, Krystal and Saagar reflect on the current political climate, emphasizing the need for transparency, accountability, and genuine representation in governance. They advocate for systemic changes to reduce the undue influence of wealthy individuals and restore faith in political institutions.

• Final Thoughts:
  • Krystal Ball urges listeners to question the motivations behind political maneuvers and to demand integrity from their leaders.
  • Quote: "It's imperative that we hold our leaders accountable and push for policies that reflect the true needs and desires of the populace, not just the interests of the powerful elite." ([68:40])

Saagar adds that the upcoming political developments will be crucial in determining the direction of both major parties and the overall health of American democracy.

• Quote: "The decisions made in these critical moments will shape the future of our nation, determining whether we move towards greater accountability or deeper entrenchment of partisan agendas." ([68:08])

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Notable Quotes

• Krystal Ball ([02:40]): "RFK Jr. might get confirmed, but his path is fraught with significant opposition due to his controversial background and recent activities."

• Saagar Enjeti ([07:14]): "Gabbard's flip on 702 and FISA authority seems insincere to some, creating substantial doubt about her suitability for the DNI role."

• Krystal Ball ([09:02]): "California citizens are suffering because of lack of state and local leadership on critical issues like forest and water management."

• Saagar Enjeti ([25:21]): "State-managed disaster relief could be less expensive and more efficient, but the reality is no state is currently equipped to handle large-scale disasters alone."

• Krystal Ball ([28:43]): "Tying political conditions to disaster aid undermines the fundamental principle that federal assistance should be apolitical and based on need."

• Krystal Ball ([44:18]): "AOC's vocal criticism exposes the deep hypocrisy within the Democratic ranks, undermining their ability to present a united front."

• Krystal Ball ([54:15]): "Liberals have had their trust in mainstream institutions shattered, leading to a crisis of credibility that the party struggles to address."

• Krystal Ball ([60:07]): "Gates' attempt to portray his association with Epstein as a mistake underscores the ongoing ethical concerns surrounding his influence."

• Saagar Enjeti ([60:25]): "Musk's donations, including the $50 million to Kamala Harris, exemplify how billionaires can distort electoral processes and policy directions."

• Krystal Ball ([63:03]): "Campaign finance systems that allow billionaires to heavily influence politics are fundamentally corrupt and undermine democratic principles."

• Krystal Ball ([68:40]): "It's imperative that we hold our leaders accountable and push for policies that reflect the true needs and desires of the populace, not just the interests of the powerful elite."

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Insights and Conclusions

• Political Accountability: The episode underscores the necessity for holding political nominees and leaders accountable for their backgrounds, actions, and policy stances. The scrutiny of RFK Jr. and Tulsi Gabbard exemplifies the complex interplay of political alliances and ideological consistency required for successful confirmations.

• Federal Aid and Partisanship: Krystal and Saagar highlight the dangers of politicizing federal disaster aid, advocating for aid distribution based solely on need rather than political alignment. This approach is posited as essential for maintaining the integrity and effectiveness of disaster response mechanisms.

• Democratic Party's Internal Struggles: The discussion reveals deep fractures within the Democratic Party, particularly between progressive factions and establishment figures. AOC's critiques reveal a party grappling with lost trust and the challenge of presenting a unified platform amidst internal disagreements.

• Influence of Wealth in Politics: Critical examination of billionaire influence, particularly from Bill Gates and Elon Musk, raises concerns about the integrity of democratic processes. The hosts argue for stricter campaign finance reforms to prevent undue influence and preserve the democratic ideal of equal representation.

• Future Political Dynamics: Looking ahead, Krystal and Saagar suggest that upcoming elections and party strategies will play a pivotal role in shaping the American political landscape. The need for transparency, accountability, and genuine representation remains paramount to restoring public trust and ensuring effective governance.

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This episode of Breaking Points provides a comprehensive analysis of current political challenges, blending incisive critique with calls for systemic reforms. Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti offer listeners a thought-provoking perspective on accountability, party dynamics, and the pervasive influence of wealth in shaping policy and leadership.

Transcript

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] all right, let's get to confirmation and let's go ahead and put this up there on the screen. This is a huge week for confirmation for some of Trump's nominees today. This morning, actually, after the show is finished recording. RFK Jr will take and testify to the Senate Health and Human Services Committee for his confirmation hearing. He's actually will appear first before Finance, which is one of the two committees with jurisdiction, and then again on Thursday. So they'll have multiple opportunities to question him. Then you will have Kelly Loeffler, who will be at the Small Business Administration. I forgot that he got it. Yeah. Before sba. Yeah, I forgot that too.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

The failed campaign, some kind of like insider trading situation.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know if it was insider. She just had a sketchy background. She worked as the CEO of a crypto platform before she became the Senator from Georgia. And then she lost, famously in that Senate runoff and has been hanging around Mar A Lago since then to try and get something.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

She was accused of selling $20 million in stock a week after a coronavirus pandemic briefing.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right. I remember that. Yeah. Cuz it wasn't just her. There was also Richard Blanket on the name. Senator from North Carolina.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Burr Burr.

[Krystal Ball]

There you go. Senator Richard Burr. He's the one who, remember he had his phone seized.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

That's right.

[Krystal Ball]

And all of that. There was David Perdue, also the former Senator from Georgia, CEO of Dollar General. I think he's gonna be our ambassador to China.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Oh, there you go.

[Krystal Ball]

Great.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Lovely.

[Krystal Ball]

All right, Thursday we will have Kash Patel from the FBI. He will testify before the Judiciary Committee. And then also on Thursday, this is really the big one, which is Tulsi Gabbard, who will testify before the Senate Intelligence Committee for her confirmation as the DNI. Right now the biggest question marks are around RFK Jr and around Tulsi Gabbard. Gabbard in particular has huge opposition from a lot of very pro surveillance state, both Democrats and Republicans. And there's still faces a really, I think, tougher path to confirmation. Taste of what that looks like. John Brennan, the former CIA director, campaigning against her on msnbc. Let's take a listen.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, when there are National Security Council meetings that the President chairs in the White House Situation Room, usually the first person to speak would be the Director of National Intelligence and the Director of CIA. They lay down the intelligence basis for any type of policy discussion that ensues. And so if that intelligence basis, that briefing is going to be skewed or is going to be lacking some very important critical information, the policy decision that ultimately comes out of it is also going to be baseless and also, you know, it's going to be potentially threatening to our national security. So again, it's the President's daily brief, but also the role that the Director of National Intelligence, Director of CIA play in order to ensure that the people who have to make those decisions in the National Security Council are fully informed about what the reality is, what the intelligence is, what our intelligence gaps are. And if they withhold things or if they skew things, it really is going to be detrimental to us. Real quick, before we let you go, Director, do those agency heads have, in that moment you're describing in that room, have that realization that, wait a minute.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

That'S not what we told you.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I mean, in other words, how does that coordination come on, become undone when the person who's putting the final brief is skewed the information? Well, I like to think that, you know, Secretary of State Rubio, who is very familiar with the intelligence profession, is going to be speaking up because you have the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, the Attorney General, others who are going to be there. So you want to make sure again that you have people who are informed, but also people who want to know the truth. Right. And not just people who want to give President Trump what he wants to hear. That is so, so dangerous.

[Krystal Ball]

So there we go. That's the taste of the deep state against Tulsi. Gabbard. John Brennan, of course, would never manipulate intelligence. He would never do any of the things that he just laid out. He would never lie about maybe an international scandal, Russia. I mean, obviously we could go on forever. This is part of the problem that Tulsi really faces, though, is that that is the mainstream view in Washington. You know, the very reason of her Suspicions previously for 702 and then having on that is just was crazy to watch because this is like, I think you said this, you could say a lot about her flips on a lot of issues. That was the one. I think we were all agreed. We're, you know, we're skeptical.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It's pretty consistent.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I thought we were pretty skeptical of these things. I think they're bad. But the view from Washington is clear. If you want to get confirmed, this is. And you know what's really crazy is this. Put this on the screen. The current Republican swing vote, Susan Collins, is unconvinced that she's actually flipped. So her position is that her Tulsi's flip on 702 and FISA authority seems insincere to her. And she just can't in good conscience perhaps support somebody who has even in the past voiced concern about section 0702 and FISA spying. I Should note, by the way, cuz you floated this as well.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

RFK Jr. Is also a sleeper problem potentially in terms of his confirmation. While he's got a lot of MAGA votes, The fact that McConnell came out and voted against Pete Hegstaff, that was a big deal.

[Carl]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Because that shows pretty clearly he's been dropping hints like nobody's business that he doesn't like Tulsi Gabbard. If Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, who's already unconvinced it would take JD and then there's just one more Republican, let's say both on Tulsi Gabbard and our RFK Jr. If they defect, then they're not going to get confirmation. So those are some pretty big questions. I would rather be RFK Jr right now than I would Tulsi Gabbard just because I think that the FISA element is so difficult. I mean correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's possible that a Democrat or sorry at the very least Democrats for Tulsi, it's an absolute nonstarter.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Correct.

[Krystal Ball]

Many of them would not even vote or meet with her because they think she's a traitor for not being a former Democrat. RFK Jr. Maybe has a better chance of all of that. I still, you know, really remains to be seen. But those two really do seem to be the ones who could be in trouble. I do think they'll probably still get confirmed just because of the pressure the Trump administration has been willing to bring to bear. But if they do get confirmed, it's very likely to be with JD Vance is the tie, tie break vote with rfk.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I could see some Democrats crossing over.

[Krystal Ball]

I was thinking the same.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I could see John Fetterman voting for him, whereas I cannot see John Fetterman voting for Tulsi Gabbard because. Yeah, but what about Bernie?

[Krystal Ball]

I know Bernie could vote for RFK if he extracts some promises.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I don't think so because I mean maybe, but I think there would be a lot of concern about his views on vaccines. The other one that I think could cross over is what's his name from Colorado. Bennett. Yeah. Had made like maybe Colorado has a kind of like crunchy RFK Jr. Ish.

[Krystal Ball]

That's true faction.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

You ever been to Denver? Fairly significant. Which their governor, remember in the beginning Jared Polis was like, oh, I kind of like this guy. I wish he was still in our coalition so I could see that. I mean even Cory Booker has made some like sort of RFK junior Ish directional moves et Cetera, So you could maybe if you lose someone. Like, for example, there's concern about the fact that RFK Jr. From the Republican side, there's concern that he is pro choice now. Like Tulsi, who was like, section 702. I totally, I'm good there. Like, everything's cool. RFK Jr. Has also tried to reassure that he is going to support pro life positions from his post here. But, you know, it's possible someone is really concerned about that and he could lose a vote. But, I mean, I think probably both of them end up getting through, but we'll see. I just have to say, like, I wouldn't personally vote for either one of those. Probably the one Trump nominee that I would personally vote for is the labor secretary. Not because I think that she would be so great, but because I think she's the best you would get out of a Republican administration. And Republicans always oppose nominees for, like, they always stand up to Trump on, like, the worst possible issues. So there is a lot of upset over the labor secretary pick. Let's put this. We have this last tear sheet that we can put up on the screen here, guys from media. Rand Paul, but he's not the only one, says he's gonna vote against Trump's labor secretary because she's very pro labor. God forbid you have a labor secretary that's pro labor. Now, her record with regard to labor issues is actually not good. The only thing, she supported the Pro act and voted for Pro act, which was the big push in the Biden administration to make labor organizing a lot easy, easier. She ends up being the pick of the teamsters, had Sean O'Brien, who pushes for her to be in there. So, like I said, I think she's the best that you get out of a Republican administration. But she is now apparently in doubt because so many Republicans are so oppositional towards any sort of actual support for labor and labor organizing. Again, I think she'll get through because you can have some Republican defections because I suspect there are a number of Democrats who will cross over to vote for her here. But like I said, I just feel like they. The places where Republicans resist Trump are, like, always on, like, the worst, in the worst direction. Like, this isn't hawkish enough. She doesn't wanna spy on Americans enough.

[Krystal Ball]

You're gonna need Democrats to vote for her if she's gonna get through. I also do think it's an important part of the Trump coalition. I mean, Sean O'Brien took a ton of shit for not doing an endorsement and he was at the inaugural ball, for example, and he's been on. What was he on? Theo Vaughan, remember that? Like, he. If anybody who knows what time it is, it really is Sean O'Brien. And he has played it well. That was one of the benefits that he got out of the Trump administration by not endorsing. That was one of the big political things that he had. But this is part of the problem with the current Republican coalition. So it's a question mark, too, for the Democrats whether they're gonna come through and actually do this. You know, in terms of also the Maja agenda, this is another one which there's a fundamental tension at the heart of Maha. Some of Maja is not in tension with the GOP at all. Some of Maha is very libertarian, which I'm fine with. Things like transparency, more studies. You know, we're gonna make sure that with the vaccine studies or whatever, we're gonna publish it for everybody and increase informed consent. I'm like, okay, sure. We're gonna increase parental choice. Okay, I think that's good. We're gonna increase it. But it comes into tension with industry and also with the government power when you talk about banning certain things.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

And that's part of the problem, is that we don't live in a libertarian paradise. The government has power. We have regulatory authority. Their policy shapes our food. And so, for example, one of the things RFK Jr has talked about is he's like, we don't need Ozempic for children. All kids need is three healthy meals per day, and I think the government should provide them. I'm like, okay, listen, I'm fine with that. But as we all know from Rand Paul and all this other people. Are you saying the government's gonna tell people what to eat? You know, it's like, oh, are we? The government program is gonna be going out there and designing food for children. The horror of that. I mean, remember how people reacted to Michelle Obama and the whole let's move thing? That is very intention. Right. Whereas what's easier, Cut a check to a drug company, which. That's very in the line of the American tradition.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Well, there have already been a couple major betrayals of the quote unquote, MAHA movement. For one thing, a seed oil lobby is gonna be chief of staff at usda.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, that's right.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

As Thomas Massie pointed this out. Yep. For another thing, I don't know if you noticed this PFAS thing. Yeah, I know, exactly. Trump rolled back. So the Biden administration actually moved forward to ban these. They're called forever chemicals, which are linked to cancer. To ban them, it's a huge problem because there's been massive runoff. It's in so many of our waterways and the water we drink, et cetera. And so he had actually signed an executive order to limit these forever chemicals, which is very much a step in the right direction. Trump rolled that back. So already pretty clear those tensions, as you put it, and which side this Republican Party is ultimately gonna fall on. And also, there was no backlash against any of these moves to speak of. So I think Trump feels very much like he can, sort of by having RFK Jr. In there, he feels like he's satisfying the demands of that coalition without actually following through on policy pieces that they would theoretically want in place. And then, number one, Trump doesn't have to run again. Number two, people typically in that coalition just kind of fall in line and are like, oh, well, if he's doing, it's fine, or don't pay attention to the details or whatever. So I don't think he expects any backlash over this. And another one just on the labor front, I just saw this this morning. So one of the good things that the Biden administration actually did was the general counsel of the National Labor Relations Board, Jennifer Abruzzo. She didn't get as much attention as Alina Khan, but she was in some ways just as impactful and influential in terms of pushing for the ability for workers to organize in labor unions. The National Labor Relations Board under Biden was really quite good. They made a number of decisions which were really important for Starbucks working, being able to organize for Amazon drivers, to potentially be able to unionize and be treated as employees versus subcontractors. These are really important directions. Well, Abruzzo has been officially fired, and no surprise, but, you know, very indicative of a more regressive, less pro labor direction. And just this morning, I see the news that Trump has ousted a natural Labor Relations Board member, Gwen Wilcox, despite law forbidding firing board members absent neglect or malfeasance. This is according to the lab reporter for Bloomberg News. So again, taking control of the National Labor Relations Board and moving it much back in the pro business, anti labor direction of the first Trump administration. So I think very similar to with RFK Jr. Where he feels like he can put in Sean O'Brien's pick as labor secretary and feel like he threw a bone to that coalition. But underneath the surface here, and in a lot of ways, the National Labor Relations Board is where the game is really played in terms of labor organizing and all indications are that that is moving very much back to the standard Republican conservative, anti labor position. And of course the presence of Elon Musk cannot be understated there as well. Elon and Trump were delighting in Elon's firing striking workers. He is in legal battles to deem the National Labor Relations Board unconstitutional. He is against labor unions, period. End of story. So it seems like that that's the direction that they are moving in here.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, look, big tensions in this. Who will win or not. That's literally the open question. I am curious to see if Democrats. Cuz this is a big question mark for Democrats too in terms of what they decide, what fights they decide they will pick.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

If they decide to pick any. So far the answer is no.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, they voted against almost all the Trump nominees. Right. So the only Trump nominee to get any unanimous Marco Rubio's consent was Marco.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Rubio, which is so talented.

[Krystal Ball]

Nobody. Yeah, yeah. Cause in terms of collegiality and all that. But look, they all voted against Pete Hagstath. I think most voted against Kirsty Noem. They had like 29 no votes against her. There were most voted against Scott Besant. So now it's like the question mark about labor. It's like, well, okay, like what are we doing here exactly? Is it gonna be all opposition? Because we all know who could easily get a 53 Republican votes. Oh, some Heritage foundation, right to work. You know, take some ag. What's the most right to work state in the country? Alabama. Right. Probably take like the Alabama ag. Put him up. It'd be easy. Well, last time, biggest check mark in the country.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

At the beginning that guy's name was like Puzder.

[Krystal Ball]

Puzder. Andy Puzder.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yeah. Who was like the head of Hardee's. Arby's.

[Krystal Ball]

Hardee's. Yeah, he was. Is it Hardee's or it has another name, I forget. Carl's Jr. Carl's Jr. Yeah, but I think it's two different names. One international and one national. Terrible food.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

But yeah, anyway, it was him and he's like obviously virulently anti labor, et cetera. So yeah, I mean like I said, I think she's the best you're going to get out of a Republican administration. But it doesn't mean that you're going to get like actually good labor policy.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, we'll see.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

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[Krystal Ball]

Why don't we get to wildfires? Lots of news there.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yes, indeed. So there has been an ongoing push to tie federal aid to for, you know, recovery from these horrific wildfires in LA to like forcing them to bend basically to Republican political priorities. Trump floated this in when he visited la. I'll get to that in a minute. But Mike Johnson, Speaker Mike Johnson, obviously very sort of pivotal in terms of this direction, also saying that he agrees with the specifics of what Trump wants to tie this disaster funding to. Let's take a listen to that. ID as a condition for aid to California.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Is that going to be a red.

[Krystal Ball]

Line for you if you insist on.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Voter ID in exchange for aid to California?

[Carl]

Yeah, we've got to work out the details of that. I have not spoken to the president about that issue since he said that he'll be here tonight, of course, for dinner with us. And that's one of the topics of discussion. Listen, there are a lot of issues going on in California and we have been lamenting the lack of voter security there for some time. Election security. We were deeply concerned about it in this last election cycle and we saw three of our seats, frankly, slip away from us in the weeks that it took to continue counting ballots in California when seemingly every other state and nation in America can get it done. It's inexcusable. Gavin Newsom provides, I think, such a lack of leadership there in so many ways. And it was highlighted by the disaster with the fires. It's so heartbreaking that California citizens are suffering because of lack of state and local leadership on those issues. They did not manage the forest well, they did not manage the water well. And everyone knew for decades that the eventuality that we've seen over the last couple of weeks here since the fire disasters began was foreseeable. They assumed the risk because of their crazy far left policies. So we've talked about conditioning the aid that will go there to policy changes. I think that is a common sense notion that is supported by the vast majority of the American people who do not want to subsidize crazy California leftist policies that are dangerous for people.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

This is, of course, echoing some of what Trump said when he was on the ground, also bringing up up specifically voter id. So not even anything to do with fire management, but just, you know, pretty directly tied to like, we don't like the way you vote. You hear Mike Johnson there say, like, oh, three of our Republicans slipped away. Like, we lost these three races and we're upset about it. Pretty wild to just directly tie it to Political outcomes that they're unhappy with in the state. Here is Trump, when he was on the ground singing a similar tune.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I want to see two things in Los Angeles, voter id, so that the people have a chance to vote. And I want to see the water be released and come down into Los Angeles and throughout the state. Those are the two things. After that, I will be the greatest president that California has ever seen. I want the water to come down and come down to Los Angeles and also go out to all the farmland that's barren and dry. You know, they have land that they say is the equivalent of the land in Iowa, which is about as good as there is anywhere on Earth. The problem is it's artificial because they artificially stop the water from going onto the land. So I want two things. I want voter ID for the people of California. They all want it. Right now, you have. No, you don't have voter id. People want to have voter identification. You want to have proof of citizenship. Ideally, you have one day voting. But I just want voter ideas. A start.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Voter idea is a start. And just a minor crash. That was actually when he was on the ground in North Carolina. Later in the day, I believe he went to la. I got one more clip from Trump saying that he is sort of floating the idea of getting rid of FEMA altogether, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, and leaving disaster aid solely up to the states, which is, you know, I mean, no state in the country is equipped to be able to handle the disaster relief on the scale of what we're talking about when you're dealing with these repeated climate crises. Let's take a listen to what Trump had to say about that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

North Carolina gets hit, the governor takes care of it. When Florida gets hit, the governor takes care of it, meaning the state takes care of it. To have a group of people come in from an area that don't even know where they're going in order to solve immediately a problem is something that never worked for me.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Me.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But this is probably one of the best examples of it not working. And there's been some others, like in Louisiana, et cetera. So we're going to be doing something on FEMA that I think most people agree. I'd like to see the states take care of disasters, let the state take care of the tornadoes and the hurricanes and all of the other things that happen. And I think you're going to find it a lot less expensive. You'll do it for less than half, and you're going to get a lot quicker response.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

This actually Ties in Zagar with the executive order that we were talking about. This actually not an executive order, but an agency directive, I guess it was, that is being parsed and debated right now. Calendar points will cover in full tomorrow, but basically says that all agencies need to stop distributing all federal funds to any programs outside of those that go directly to individuals. So potentially included in that would be things like disaster relief. So, you know, sort of ties in with these comments from Trump. And just one more note. You know, I know we're all thinking about California after these horrific fires, but because you have so many red states along the coastline of the Gulf of America, I guess we'll say yes, the.

[Krystal Ball]

Gulf of America, that's right.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

That are tremendous, you know, tremendously impacted routinely by hurricanes. The bulk of FEMA money distributed goes to red states. So it would be red states that would be primarily affected. Not that that should matter, because I happen to believe that whether you vote for Republicans or Democrats, you should benefit from the federal government coming in to help you in your time of need. And I'm pretty sure that's something that most people in the country tend to accept.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I've gone on the record for this, whether you like, look, I think voter ID is a good policy or whatever. If Congress wants to pass a law that requires it for the entire nation, fine, I would have no issue with that. But I don't think that FEMA money or any of that should be tied to it. I also think that it's stupid. Every single time we have a major disaster, Congress has to come through and pass some special supplemental as opposed to just actual checks that just kick in. Again, philosophically, California is the biggest economy in our state, federal revenue wise. They probably pay more than any other state into the coffers. So Alabama, which I don't like talking this way, but it is true, most of these states, Alabama, Mississippi or whatever are downwardly mobile and are almost certainly more beneficiaries of recipient tax dollars than they are paying into the system, it would be genuinely outrageous. I would say this about Texas too, which is also a G15 economy in and of itself. If there's a Biden administration and they're like, oh, you need to implement esg, I'd be like, okay, yeah, we'll just take our oil and go somewhere else. Same with California. So I feel the same way in terms of neutrality for overall disaster relief. We've got 30 million Americans, I think, who live it might be more. 30 something million. 1/10 or so of the entire US population that lives in the state. I think we should just get many.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Of them Republicans, by the way.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, many of them.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yes, they vote for Democrats.

[Krystal Ball]

You shouldn't even have to talk this way. It's not about Republican Democrats. They're citizens. Many of them, again, tax wise, have paid more than anybody else into the federal coffers. So when they need to be bailed out, I think we should bail them out. And in general, tying this political stuff to disaster aid is really bad policy because like we just said, you could easily foresee some future Democratic president who said if there's a issue in Texas, they're like, okay, well you have to pursue green energy. And they're like, okay, well we don't want to, so what are they supposed to do? You know, it's a bad policy to set up this.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yeah, well, and the voter ID thing is particularly crazy because, I mean, I would find it objectionable to put any conditions on it, even if it was like, you have to do the water management in the way that we want. But at least that would relate.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, that's right.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

In theory. Okay, look to fire management.

[Krystal Ball]

You know, the water thing, if it's real. I don't know nearly enough about water. I've tried to read about it. It's way too political the way that it is. But if theoretically that was genuinely what caused it, okay, I could live with it. But the voter thing and anything generally political, again, if we want national voter id, fine, pass it through an act of Congress. I'm totally fine with that. But conditioning aid to each state specifically to compel behavior is very different, for example, than the national, what was the, you know, the thing that set the drinking age at 21. They're like, oh, if you want your highway dollars, then you have to do that. Okay. I mean, I don't even love that, that per se, but at least that's one that applies to all states. Singling out an individual state, it seems wrong.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And very clearly being like, we don't like how you voted so you're not going to get our help is crazy. I mean, I mentioned this before, but one of the things that really radicalized me against Democrats when I lived in Kentucky, which had trended to the right and just elect a Republican governor and they were passing all kinds of legislation through that was getting rid, like implementing quote, unquote, right to work, which is anti labor and attacking pensions, whatever. I got a lot on Twitter of like, well, screw those people, they voted the wrong way. And I just think that once you start thinking that way, it's really, it's like the end of the country. It's like it's over. Like we may as well just break up and dissolve. If it's just gonna be, you know, retribution against states and counties and cities that don't vote the way that you want them to, it's a very bad direction to go in. There were some additional sort of underlying pieces here that have come out after the fires that have really caused additional pain and suffering for people there and help to explain why, for example, the fire department in LA county, among other reasons, why they were under resourced at this point. And we could put this up on the screen. This was actually from Ben Norton tweeted it out, but this was from Matt Stoller, Manufacturers Substack. He had a guest author on, who I believe is an antitrust attorney, something like that, who wrote a long piece about the fact that US fire trucks, their costs have skyrocketed because a private equity firm bought up the manufacturers and made a monopoly. You can put the piece up on the screen and I'll give you some of the details here. The cost of fire trucks has skyrocketed, going from $300,000 to $500,000 for a pumper truck and $750,000 to $900,000 for a ladder truck truck just in the mid-2010s. We're not talking about like the 80s or 90s. We're talking about the mid-2010s a decade ago. Now they've skyrocketed to around a million for a pumper truck and 2 million for a ladder truck. And not to mention the time to even get, if you can afford that and you're willing to shell out the cash, the time to actually take delivery receipt of that truck has gone to now being between two and four and a half years. Used to be less than a year. And the TLDR here again, I recommend you read the piece because it's very instructive, not just about fire trucks, but about so many problems within our economy is that a private equity firm called American Industrial Partners decided to roll up the fire truck industry, forced prices up across the board, consolidated all these previously like regional, sort of like small manufacturers. Originally they had all this propaganda about, oh, we're going to continue to allow you to operate in your facilities and you're going to have your own brand and we'll just be like the parent company and you guys are going to do your own thing. But they've long since dropped that act. They've Significantly reduced capacity, like factory capacity in order to actually build and deliver these trucks, spike the prices. And now you have an industry that is just tremendously consolidated. Very little competition, very little choice. So when these fires struck, over half of the LA Fire Department's trucks were currently out of service. And part of that is because of this price they weren't able to replace the trucks. And then even things like being able to get the parts from these same manufacturers gets wildly more expensive. You add on top of that they had seen budget cuts that we talked about before and you end up with a situation where even as the fire risk has obviously dramatically increased in this era of climate crisis, they are significantly under resourced and unable to even marshal the equipment necessary to be able to combat the fires that they would need.

[Krystal Ball]

It was really interesting actually to look at that. There's also been this price gouging that we should mention. Put it up there please on the screen. One of the things that we immediately flagged here at breaking points, but the rent has now risen by some 20% across LA counties after, after the fires. Even though that's actually in direct violation of the legal limit of 10% which is meant to be a anti price gouging maneuver that kicks in in terms of disaster. But the real issue is that the housing stock has now obviously massively shrunk in some of the richest areas. There are huge question marks about insurance, property tax, the ability to even rebuild and then whether a lot of those people even want to rebuild. I mean, as I said, if something like that happened to me, I'm done. I'm not, you know, I'm not paying all that much income and property tax just to be screwed whenever it actually matters. Whether it's private equity, whether it's lack of investment or whatever. We can all agree that it was completely incompetent the way that it was run. And so put that together and you're just seeing a real crisis of what I would say is like Capital L liberalism. Like these cities, San Francisco, Los Angeles, you know, New York and others have relied on this like weird balance of like progressivism through rhetoric. But NIMBYism and rich people that come together and LA is now the best example of this is one of the greatest places in the entire world. No one can dispute that weather wise it's incredible. And you know that you have the dynamic effect of the city. You've got land, you've got sun, you've got, you know, all this stuff happening. But the fact is, is that if anything its resources are a curse that enables all of this bullshit to like surround it. And what we see here now is there's huge question marks as to whether they're even gonna change their housing policy. Now, I'm not some universal yimby person. I'm actually skeptical of a lot of this. Like we all need to live in a box, five minute city stuff, et cetera. But California and New York are the places where I'm like, guys, this is undeniable. This, it clearly is not working. When you have millions and millions and millions of dollars and the average salary is like 100 grand with 13% income tax rate, it's like, how does this shit even work? So I think they need to ask big questions. And if we're gonna tie federal aid, I would like it to be tied to something like this and be like, yeah, let's make sure that normal people can actually live here. You know, instead of just either bailing out the ultra rich or just accelerating. Was it accelerating building pathways for the richest residents who lost their homes as opposed to lowering the price for everybody? Look at what has happened in Austin. This is where a red state is genuinely beneficial. They don't have all this yimby bullshit. Rent in Austin is down 23% over the last three years. That's incredible. And it's literally just because they built a shit ton of housing everywhere. Houston, not the most beautiful city. It's cheap to live if you want to live there, you know, but listen, you know, it's one of the only places that made me want to maybe have some zoning laws. Cause it's like, should an auto body shop be next to a single family house? I don't know, but that house is pretty cheap and the people there seem to like it. It's one of the biggest cities in the country. That's been my main takeaway from this LA situation.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

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[Carl]

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[Unknown Speaker 1]

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[Unknown Speaker 2]

Let's move on to some interesting comments from AOC, who has become one of the more vocal members of Congress on the Democratic side. I mean I was just seeing Sager like the Democrats apparently just got their act around to do like some press conference condemning the pardoning of January 6th rioters and were like, I mean we're 10 other outrageous moves later, like they're just, I don't know, they're a mess. They don't understand the landscape. They don't know what to do. They're totally pathetic in terms of any sort of a fight this time around. I've seen a lot of just like normie Democratic base type people who are loyal vote blue, no matter who. MSNBC types who are furious with the way that the Democratic Party has reacted or their lack of response to Trump 2.0 this time around. So in any case, AOC is one of the people who has asserted herself more. Jon Stewart had her on and she made some interesting comments about insider training, but also some interesting comments about Joe Biden on his way out of office being like, oh, there's a problem with oligarchy. Really, is there? Tell me more about that. Let's take a listen to what she had to say. There need to be Democrats who walk.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The walk and talk the talk.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

There is an insane amount of hypocrisy.

[Krystal Ball]

And the hypocrisy is what gets exploited to use the cynicism and wherever there's a hypocritical window.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

For example, I think one of the.

[Krystal Ball]

Most biggest examples of this is insider trading in Congress. Like, dude.

[Carl]

I don't know if I.

[Krystal Ball]

Like, do I give snaps?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Do I? I don't know what the kids do anymore.

[Krystal Ball]

But like, dude, it's. Yes, it is. Like, that's so crazy. It's so crazy. It's crazy. I mean, like, that's the end.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is the thing.

[Krystal Ball]

It's like, like people think that everyday people are stupid. I'm like, do.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Do you all really think that people don't see this?

[Krystal Ball]

Like, they sit on a committee, they get information about a drug or a contract or a thing, they immediately make.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

A call, the stockbroker changes things and.

[Krystal Ball]

And their portfolio swells, explodes it. What are we doing?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And you're doing this on public trust.

[Krystal Ball]

Right?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

On.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

On, like taxpayer finance, public, you know, facilities like it.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Of course, you're regulating the market that you're trading on.

[Krystal Ball]

Exactly. And you run the casino. And then we're supposed to act like.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Money doesn't only corrupts Republicans.

[Krystal Ball]

Give me a fucking break.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Biden on his way out. It was only on his way out that he was like, this country's controlled by oligarchs.

[Krystal Ball]

By, like, we could have used that energy a couple years ago.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Accurate on all of that.

[Krystal Ball]

Isn't this a little too late, though?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Well, I was.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, all this Biden talk, it's like, you endorsed Biden. Okay, Not Only that defended Biden.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yeah, that's true. She and Bernie actually. Actually, they were in the, like, you know, we're all in with Biden here today.

[Krystal Ball]

They were more with Biden than, like, Nancy Pelosi. So that's where part of it is just like, shut up.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

All right, well, here's the part to. I think one of the. There's a few points she makes that I think are important. Number one, about the way that hypocrisy is used against Democrats. And understandably so. I mean, she's talking about the insider trading people. He's also talking about. You had a lot of people, including Joe Biden, who were like, trump's a fascist. And then are like, welcome to the white. Welcome home, Donald Trump. And people are not gonna believe you next time you raise the alarm about something if you are not acting like this was really bad that he got elected. And I still think the things that I said before were true. And this is a real threat. And so to see Democrats, the way that they by and large responded, which is to be like, we'll see and maybe we'll work with them and whatever, it's like, this is a wildly different energy than you were bringing up until five seconds ago. So even though your point about her and Biden is a correct one, and it's like, okay, well, where was that energy critiquing him previously? She is right in what she's saying here about the Democratic response this time around to Trump.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, absolutely. And that's why when you think about. When you're thinking about how this is all shaping up, I think it all comes to credibility. And say whatever you want about Trump. And he's switched his tune on many, many. But his core thing about immigration and trade shit's been saying since 1976. You know, he's got a consistency of message, and even when he's inconsistent, it's within his, like, Trumpian MAGA like, framework, as you always point out. What are the things people like about Bernie Sanders? Basically been saying the same stuff since he's been running for office. And was it Burlington Mayor? The problem I have here with the AOCs and all of that is you both try to be consistent on the issue. And let's be clear, she actually has been. She. She co sponsored that legislation with Matt Gaetz on stock trading. So I'm not calling her out on whatever on this specifically, but she's a capital D Democrat, and that works for her sometimes, but it didn't. You know, when you have that inability to Call out your own side when it's happening in the midst of the big existential question of the time, do we support Biden or do we ditch Biden? I don't know if a lot of people can have a lot of trust with you on this issue. So trust is everything in politics. I mean, why did Kamala, at the end of the day, lose, you know, her whole border hawk shtick? People were like, I don't believe you because of all this crap that you said in 2019. I think that you either still are open borders or maybe worse, you don't believe anything. And that's not a problem. That's not a version that vibes with Trump, who has been 100% consistent, at least on illegal immigration. And that's mostly the valence of where people decided to fall with. So with aoc, with a lot of these progressive Democrats, it's like, I think Biden was like poison for them because they both had to defend him. But even in the times when they knew that he was being bad, they had to stay silent. They lost a lot of trust. And so it's like, it's easy to say when you're out of power. And by the way, of course, this applies to Republicans too, right? This is the eternal problem of the insider, outsider dynamic. Yeah, I don't know. I just. I see we're about to play Charlamagne. He's like, people should be more like aoc. I'm like, should they really? I don't think that she's been a very successful politician over the last 10. I would say she's actually one of the most failed politicians of the last 10 years.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I mean, here's what went wrong for her. She came in as a true outsider. True outsider, yeah. Takes on Joe Crowley, who was in leadership and close to Pelosi and all these people, and just sort of took a seat for granted, and she comes in and she knocks him out and it's an earthquake. Right? She decides before she's even, I think before she's sworn in, she's gonna protest outside of Nancy Pelosi's office and make this statement. And there were two different pathways, right? One was to maintain that outsider status and really be that bomb thrower and leverage the social media following that. She had and continues to have, by the way, and use that grassroots power against the established Democratic Party power. She, step by step by step, chose the other path, which was to try to play the inside game. And we just really saw an example of how that was a completely failed Tactic. I mean, she wanted to be ranking member on oversight, and she pledged, reportedly, as part of that, like. Like, if you let me do this, I am not gonna primary any Democratic incumbents, which is an extraordinary concession. Okay? Extraordinary concession. To basically say, like, I'm gonna lay down my arms against any critique I have against any of y'all in the Democratic caucus. And they still blocked her and put in Gerry Connolly, who, you know, is literally suffering with cancer and is aged. And nobody's idea of a firebrand, Right? Nobody's idea of a firebrand for a position that actually made sense for aoc, because oversight is all about getting that clip that goes viral and sharing on social media, whatever. It really was a good position for her within the context of the Democratic Party, even in that she's blocked. So I think you're right, Sager, that ultimately the test will come. Now, it's kind of comfortable to have these critiques of, look, Joe Biden is done. He's out. It's all easy to see in retrospect, the way this all went sideways, et cetera, et cetera. Are you going to have that energy when it's difficult, when it goes against where the party is and what they're doing? Because that's when it really counts. We could have used that voice back when the Democrats were like, we're just not gonna have a primary. Forget about the Biden Kamala thing. Because I think. I think you could justify that when it turns out that Kamala actually, on economics, was going to be worse than Biden, like, with regard to antitrust, sec, crypto, possibly labor, was not gonna be as good as Biden. You could justify it from an ideological perspective, even though Biden obviously is too old, blah, blah, blah. But the real moment was back when Democrats said, we're gonna cancel the primary. We're not gonna have any debates. We're not gonna have any choice. And there was none of that energy from anyone at that point. So I think that is the. If she wants to, and I think she does, if she wants to be an actual leader of a reformed, different Democratic Party, she's going to have to say things like this. When it is difficult, when it is uncomfortable, when it requires her to bump up against her friends and colleagues in this institution. We teased the Charlamagne clip, so let me go ahead and play it. But he's been interesting also in the aftermath. I mean, he's very frustrated with the Democratic Party for a whole variety of reasons, but it was interesting to hear him pick up on aoc. At least having some fight in her. Let's take a listen to what he had to say.

[Krystal Ball]

And don't get me wrong, you should.

[Carl]

Be angry at people suddenly making nice with Donald Trump.

[Krystal Ball]

But instead of snooping Nelly, what about.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

The Democratic politicians who spent four years.

[Krystal Ball]

Calling Trump the new Adolf Hitler and.

[Carl]

Then started doing stuff like this?

[Krystal Ball]

President Biden, welcoming his successor to the White House, observed all the traditional niceties. Joe Biden greeting Donald Trump at the White House with two words, welcome home.

[Sagar Enjeti]

There were smiles, there were handshakes. I mean, there was a real respect between the two.

[Krystal Ball]

This moment between former President Barack Obama and President Elect Donald Trump has gone. They chuckled like old buddies. Trump even made Obama laugh.

[Carl]

I'm sorry.

[Krystal Ball]

If you tell us someone is Hitler, you at least have to act like he's Hitler.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I know when Barack got home, Michelle.

[Krystal Ball]

Was like, hehe, hell.

[Carl]

So Hitler got jokes, huh?

[Krystal Ball]

All right. In fact, here's the energy I wanted to see more of on Monday. All these journalists are like, congresswoman, are.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

You going to the inauguration? Congresswoman, are you going to the inauguration? Are you going to the inauguration?

[Krystal Ball]

Let me make myself clear.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I don't celebrate rapists.

[Krystal Ball]

So no, I'm not going to the inauguration tomorrow.

[Carl]

See?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, that's right.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

That's right.

[Carl]

That right there, that's backbone.

[Krystal Ball]

That's principles. Man, I'm gonna miss AOC when she's deported to Nicaragua.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Now, whether or not you particularly agree with that critique, Sagar cringes out. Think about the difference, though, between Joe Amiga, who spent all this time and made lots of money and got super famous, comparing Trump to fascists and, yes, Nazis, and then immediately he's elected and they're like, oh, we're gonna make nice and we're gonna go down to Mar A Lago, blah, blah, blah, versus Listen, she's been consistent on this, and she is acting the way you would act. If you actually believe the things that you said, and that's the piece of this that I think is important, is Democrats have by and large decided that the thing to do in this moment is just to sort of be quiet and see what happens and in certain respects capitulate to him, et cetera, thinking then that will gain them credibility with the country. But I think that's the completely wrong calculus because we all remember the things you said and you need to act consistently with those threats that you lay down and you claim to believe in. So I think Charlamagne is correct about that.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't think that they really do. I don't think that they really do, like, believe it. I think they only believed one thing, that this resistance and to the extent, all the rhetoric and everything, it was always fake. It was always just about getting elected. They didn't believe in. They didn't believe in health care, they didn't believe in whatever. Right. Almost all of it was just to get themselves either elected to win some midterms, to keep control of power. And then eventually, eventually around Biden, it was like, to worship this cult of personality. And so really what's been revealed is they don't believe anything. Really. What I think that they did believe is that Trump was democratically illegitimate. That was really it. Like, that was their core belief that they could sell to the country. The reason why they're so in shambles is that obviously that's just no longer a case that you can advance. So now what? And, like, that's, I mean, look, it's exciting, I think, if you're a Democrat, because you're like, wow, you know, everything's up for grabs. You have the lowest party idea in a national century. Like, you have so many different ways that you could think about who we are and what's next. But it's also, yeah, like you said, if I was one of those MSNBC people, these are normal folks and I don't begrudge them. They're our fellow citizens. Yeah, a lot of them did believe it. And so it's humiliating for them in some ways to look at this and to see what it really is. And I would tell you guys, you guys got taken for a ride. They never believed any stuff.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Oh, I think they know that.

[Krystal Ball]

I hope you are.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I mean, that's why, like, you do. See, I. I mean, first of all, msnbc, it's almost like you can't even pick on them at this point because it's so pathetic. Right. But, yeah, I think they have lost total credibility. And I think liberals have really had their trust in those institutions. The Washington Post, the Times and MSNBC and whatever has been shattered. I think their trust in the mainstream Democratic Party that they, you know, we're talking about, like, really hardcore Normie Dems has been dramatically shaken. And I think that they're waiting for someone to have some energy and some fight left in them. And I do think these battles are going to play out in the next Democratic primary. And I don't think that the Democratic base is going to. I'm going to skip this side because we're just. We've gone on a long time here, but there was a Reporter who was like, ah, maybe John Fennerman is what the Democratic Party means. Like that is not gonna be the direction the base wants to go in of now being like, I'm gonna go and have a meeting with Trump and I'm gonna back his priority with the Lake and Riley act and I'm gonna basically sound like a Republican on any manner of things. That is not what the base is going to want. So while I think the most likely direction is that the next Democratic nominee is someone like a Gavin Newsom, some very standard, you know, cut from the normal Democratic cloth, there is more of an opening now than there was previously because of the way that the trust in those liberal institutions has been broken and Democrats are really gonna have a like, whose side are you on? Moment. Because the way that you have to combat the, you know, the Trumpist view of the world is with your own worldview that points the finger in a different direction and says actually the problem, these robber baron oligarchs that he surrounded himself with, they're the problem. And this is actually a good transition into the next block because as of right now, most Democrats want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to complain about Elon, which I'm the first to do right, correct the problem of oligarchy in government, big problem. But you don't get to then and still say, but we're going to take our money from our billionaires. Cuz those are the quote unquote good billionaires. And most of these Democrats who are in positions of power, it's not because they had an inspiring vision. It's not because they have a grassroots base. There are few exceptions. It's not because they were like good at delivering for their district. It's because they were good at sucking up to rich people and separating them from their money. And so the minute you change course on that, the minute many of these people lose what has been their claim to and grant grip on power. So that's where the rubber is gonna meet the road with regard to the Democratic Party. But I know for many normal Democrats it has been radicalizing to watch so many of their liberal media figures and liberal political icons just basically lay down in these early days of the Trump administration.

[Krystal Ball]

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[Unknown Speaker 1]

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[Krystal Ball]

Let'S quickly just do this Bill Gates thing. Just cause it is funny and it gets to what you're talking about. Let's go ahead and put this up there on the screen. Bill Gates gave an interview to the Sunday Times where he said a lot of interesting stuff. He said he was very stupid to be caught being with Jeffrey Epstein.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Oh, is that how he phrased it?

[Krystal Ball]

Did you hear the operative word there? What was the operative word? It was phrased to be caught with Jeffrey Epstein. Okay. But on Elon, here's what he had to say. He said it's really insane. He can destabilize the political situations in countries. I think in the US foreigners aren't allowed to give money. Other countries maybe should adopt safeguards to make sure super rich foreigners aren't distorting their elections. The Microsoft founder said he was not at all concerned about influencing politics. Like Musk. However, he has told friends he has since donated $50 million to Democratic nominee Kamala Harris. He says obviously criticizes him about the AfD and about Nigel Farage in the UK but he also offers muted praise for Musk. He said, Musk, we can all overreach. If someone is super smart and he is, they should think about how they can help out. But this is populist, stirring. And what I think is really funny throughout this is Gates trying to square. He's like you just said, he's got his hatred of Elon. He doesn't like Elon for being kind of like a cultural traitor. But whenever it comes to this idea of influencing politics or world politics, I mean, I don't have to be the first one to tell you that nobody has influenced politics in Africa probably more than any other American than Bill Gates through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. I mean, the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation is basically a private usaid, which doles out more than USAID and has influenced malaria, AIDS or whatever policy vaccination in those countries. You can be fine with that if you think it's good. Some of it's been fine. But you have to also think like, dude, you're wielding immense power as a nation state. And then not to mention the $50 million for Kamala Harris or that's fine. I don't know if you saw this, but you know, Reid Hoffman is now spending even more money behind the Democratic machine. And there's a hilarious tweet going back to 2016. I'm sure you saw from Sam Altman being like, we all need to credit, we all need to credit Reid Hoffman for spending more money than anybody else to defeat Donald Trump. He's like, what a hero this guy is. I mean Reid is the biggest single donor I think in the entire Democratic Party. So yes, look, Elon and all that, it's extraordinary, right? But if you actually look at the equivalent number or whatever of billionaires, I think that there were either more or like in terms of the overall absolute number who had endorsed Kamala Harris or had been giving to them. And you know, you haven't even seen this. Cause we've been doing the show. Gary Peters, the senator from Michigan says he won't run in 26. So who do we all know who lives in Michigan? Mayor Pete.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

You know, so Senator, he's looking at Governor there too.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, well this is.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Well I prefer that to him running for president.

[Krystal Ball]

Ugh. No, but this will be the stepping stone crystal. He'll pull an RFK, the senior, not junior in terms of running in two years and then immediately. Or an Obama or a J.D. vance. You know, this is what these people do. So you know, you know, the amount of money that's behind Pete Boot, it's crazy. And boomers love Pete.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

They love to watch him. I mean I enjoy. He's good at going on Fox News and doing the thing. And I do worry that that's gonna substitute for an actual change of direction because there are so many liberals who just love to see him be able to go into lines. And same thing with Gavin Newsom, which I get. But you're gonna need something more than that if you're actually going to make a material difference in people's lives and be able to fight back against this, you know, the right wing Trumpist movement. You know, just going back to Bill Gates here for a second. There's the pieces you mentioned also we spent a lot of time covering on Rising the way that he was so influential in shaping the COVID vaccine response and making it so that it was controlled by these private big pharma companies. Cuz he's a big believer in patents rather than making it it widely available and a public good so that the entire world could benefit from it and not just originally primarily the developed world. So he even on that was very influential. And then to hold up the US model of campaign finance like it's anything to be emulated is fricking insane. Right? It's insane. Yes. We do bar foreigners from contributing. That is the one good thing you can say about it. But There is no way in hell that we should have the system that we have where Bill gates can give 50 million or Elon Musk can give a quarter of a billion, probably more, in order to elect their favored candidate. That is crazy. And I can tell you all day long, which is true, that Kamala had a larger number of billionaires who endorsed her. Trump had a larger concentration of a handful was like three billionaires who gave him something like half a billion dollars. So that's why they've ended up with such extraordinary power. Elon in particular, Miriam Adelson as well, in this administration. So I can tell you how this is different in terms of the scale. But anyone can look and say, well, what about Bill Gates? Well, what about George Soros? Well, what about Reid Hoffman? And how much does my little parsing of. Oh, but technically, they didn't give as much as this one. No one cares, because they also had way too much power, way too much influence, shape everything about the Democratic Party in terms of what policies they're really gonna fight for, what they're really gonna pursue, who's gonna be in their administration, what those priorities are ultimately going to be. So Democrats, if you actually want to have a compelling political alternative to Trumpism, you have to reject. There are no good billionaires. You have to reject it all. You have to do it aggressively. It has to be clear what side you are actually on. And there is a lot of polling out there that the Achilles heel of this Trump administration is how much influence these billionaires have. People hate it. Right. Elon's approval rating has fallen off a cliff. He's dramatically unpopular. Now. That was not the case in the past. They are really skeptical of even Doge, which I'm surprised at, because. Cause just the like, oh, government efficiency, like that sounds good, but because it's seen as this billionaire project, lot of skepticism. You only have 12% of Americans who say they like the idea of billionaires advising government. Right. To me, this is the potential Achilles heel for this administration. But if you're out there still in league with Bill Gates and Reid Hoffman, and that is the center of gravity in your party, and you are not willing to make a clean, clear break with them, then all of your complaints about that are going to fall on deaf ears and you will be seen as hypocrites. And I've mentioned this several times, but I think it is so emblematic. The lead candidate for DNC chair right now, Ken Martin, who I'm sure has other things to recommend him. I know people like him Know him, Whatever. I don't know anything about him other than he ran a state party. Okay. And when he got asked about money and politics, he said, of course we're going to continue to take money from good billionaires. Good billionaires.

[Krystal Ball]

And who's one of the leading candidates to become the nominee in 2028? JB Pritzker, who bragged on the DNC stage that he was an actual billionaire. You know, I mean, that's another one which drives me crazy. It's like, did you earn it? You're an heir. Is there anything more grotesque in the American tradition than the billionaire heir? It's a universally despised person.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

He could pull a page from the Trumpian playbook where, you know, first I was like, well, I'm a billionaire, so I don't need these people's money. He could. He could pull that page. But, I mean, he is.

[Krystal Ball]

But he hasn't governed that.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

No, he hasn't. He's done a decent job. I don't know enough to, like, lay out all of his track record, but I know he's done some things that were positive in the state and in some ways been, you know, in certain instances, a class traitor. But he is not. He is not. You really need an outsider. You do, because all of these other people are too infected in the way things are currently in the Democratic Party and their current way of thinking and their current power structures, et cetera. So in any case, Bill Gates, you're right about Elon Musk, but you need to look in the mirror, buddy. You need to look in the mirror.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I don't think that's gonna be happening. All right, thank you guys so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Great counterpoint show for everyone tomorrow and we will see you all on.

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