← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
1/28/26: Noem Trashes Stephen Miller, Ilhan Omar Attacked, ICE Revolt, MAGA Turns On Trump
01:17:20
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- [00:00]
Krystal Ball
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [00:05]
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- [00:34]
Joel
Hey, it's Joel and Matt from How To Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back prices, they're still high and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress.
- [00:50]
Matt
That's right, yeah. Each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big kick off the year with confidence. Listen to how to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:05]
Emily Jashinsky
Hey guys, Sagar and Kristal here.
- [01:07]
Krystal Ball
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
- [01:14]
Emily Jashinsky
This is the only place where you.
- [01:15]
Ken Klippenstein
Can find honest perspectives from the left.
- [01:17]
Emily Jashinsky
And the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [01:20]
Krystal Ball
So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad, free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [01:31]
Emily Jashinsky
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we.
- [01:34]
Ken Klippenstein
Hope to see you@breakingpoints.com.
- [01:39]
Krystal Ball
Good morning everybody. Happy Wednesday. Great to see em.
- [01:43]
Emily Jashinsky
Thanks for. Thanks for being here, Crystal. Well, Ryan is in Cancun for his annual fish show shows.
- [01:49]
Krystal Ball
Oh, I forgot that's what he's got going on this week.
- [01:51]
Emily Jashinsky
Very excited. Yeah, but he's like Ted Cruz. We got a storm and he's out of here. Cancun.
- [01:57]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, that's true. That is true. Lot to get to this morning. There was a attack on Ilhan Omar at a town hall last night. Stude came up, sort of charged at her and squirted some foul smelling liquid on her. We still don't know what that is, but we'll give you the latest. We've got a Trump reaction for that. We've got a lot of new details in the killing of Alex Pretty. We also had a new shooting involving either ICE or Border Patrol or one of the federal agencies out in Arizona. Ken Klippenstein is going to join us with some of his latest reporting. He's been getting all kinds of leaks as he does. I mean, this is what Ken does. But in any case, he's both got a bunch of current ICE agents who are speaking out and who are upset about how things are going. He also has some indications that while the figureheads at the top of the operation in Minneapolis have changed, the tactics don't appear to. So lots to get to with him. We had Trump in Iowa. I know you paid close attention to his speech as Iowa, among other places. Not too happy with Trump's economic stewardship at this point. Emily.
- [03:00]
Emily Jashinsky
That's not what he said, Crystal. Of course, you know, a little bit.
- [03:04]
Krystal Ball
Of a different perspective there. Yeah.
- [03:06]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah. Big picture is that he's supposed to be on an economic messaging tour and you could see that in the text of the speech that he was obviously deviating from, as one does. And so is he, is he going to be able to focus for the midterms on pitching his economic message? Spoiler alert. Probably not.
- [03:25]
Krystal Ball
Well, speaking of that, we didn't get this in the show, but I just saw before we started he's making new threats to Iran. So, yeah, hard to stay focused when you're constantly starting new wars all around the world. Speaking of which, we have a wrongful death lawsuit in the case of some of the people who were killed in those boat attacks. So we can give you the details and the significance of that one. Some dire warnings from a top AI CEO that are definitely worth paying attention to. And we're going to break down the latest for you guys with regards to Sudan. Some, you know, typical very dire and very grim news, but also some positive things going on there as well. So, you know, Ryan and Emily really wanted to keep you guys updated. I do as well. So we'll do our weekly segment to give you the very latest on what is the worst humanitarian crisis in the entire world.
- [04:17]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah. Krystal, let's start with Minnesota.
- [04:20]
Krystal Ball
Indeed. So we had some Trump comments yesterday with regard to specifically the killing of Alex Pretty. That was pretty interesting. We also had some, some infighting coming to the surface between the various characters who involved Kristi Noem versus Stephen Miller, et cetera. But let's go ahead and start with some of those comments from Trump.
- [04:40]
Emily Jashinsky
Do you think he was acting as an assassin in Minneapolis? Mr. Freddy, your deputy chief of staff Said, you don't think so?
- [04:49]
Donald Trump
I think with that being said, you know, he can't have guns. You can't walk in with guns.
- [04:58]
Emily Jashinsky
What about the Second Amendment?
- [04:59]
Donald Trump
Listen, he can't walk in with guns. He can't do that. But it's just a very unfortunate incident.
- [05:05]
Emily Jashinsky
What, Christy, know I'm going to step down.
- [05:07]
Krystal Ball
No, the assessment from some of your.
- [05:09]
Podcast Narrator
Own officials that Alex Preddy is a.
- [05:11]
Krystal Ball
Domestic terrorist or an assassin.
- [05:13]
Donald Trump
Well, I haven't heard that, but certainly he shouldn't have been carrying a gun. But all of a sudden, hey, look, bottom line, everybody in this room, we view that as a very unfortunate incident. Everyone, unless you're. You're a stupid person. Very, very unfortunate incident. I don't like that he had a gun. I don't like that he had two fully loaded magazines. That's a lot of bad stuff. And despite that, I say that's a very unfortunate incident.
- [05:38]
Krystal Ball
Incredible. So, Emily, effectively there, you know, saying he would not characterize Alex pretty as an assassin, but effectively saying he was killed because he had a gun.
- [05:49]
Emily Jashinsky
Right. And I think Dana Lash, obviously used to be a spokeswoman for the nra, quote, tweeted that and said something, one of his comments, and said something like, please make this administration stop talking about the Second Amendment. Like, someone just tell them they're not allowed to talk about the Second Amendment anymore. But you could see in Trump both, like, sides of his dueling political instincts or his dueling personal and political instincts. His personal instinct is to say, hey, this guy doesn't like me. He brought two magazines, he's an agitator. And then on the other side, you can see he recognizes there's an obvious problem, and that's why people are even asking the question on obvious political problem for him. And I don't know what he thinks about the substantive problem, but he at least recognizes there's a political problem for him, which is why the swirl right now of rumors about Kristi Noem. It's why that's even being asked in the first place, because conservative media, Daily Wire, Daily Caller, are reporting that the tensions inside the administration between the Homan camp and the Nome camp are absolutely real. They have been real for some time. And you can see with Noam stepping back and Homan going to Minneapolis, meeting with Jacob Fry and Tim Walls yesterday, that it's genuinely possible he. He demotes her in one way or another.
- [07:03]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, well, I think he's looking for a scapegoat. And, you know, the fact that there is pressure that there have been some, at least, you know, top level or cosmetic changes, I think is incredibly significant. At the same time, we have to keep our eye on whether, you know, the sort of science, systematic problems with this approach are actually altered. And, you know, I'm, that's something I'm very skeptical of. And we can talk to Ken about. And also, I mean, it does fit a pattern of whenever something goes wrong for Trump that people can't deny that, you know, MAGA can't deny it's never his fault. Right. It's always, oh, it's this person, it's that person. He's getting bad advice, et cetera. And so I see a lot of that with this as well. There was another, speaking of Trump psychology, this was a very interesting insight into Trump's psychology. Not that this will necessarily surprise people, but he indicated he may I actually feel a little bit worse about Renee Good's murder because of the fact that her parents were big Trump supporters. So let's go ahead and take a listen to that one.
- [08:00]
Donald Trump
And I'm not sure about his parents, but I know her parents were big Trump fans. Makes me feel bad anyway. But I mean, I guess you could say even worse. They were tremendous Trump people. Trump Trump fans. And, you know, the daughter was, she was, I don't know if you could say radicalized maybe. Radicalized, maybe not. I don't know. But I hate to see it. I hate to see that.
- [08:22]
Krystal Ball
I mean, just what can you even say about that? He's ranking how badly he feels about these various killings from his own agents based on the proximity to Trump fans.
- [08:32]
Emily Jashinsky
Not surprising at all. And we're going to talk a little bit later in this block about how he responded to what happened to Ilhan Omar last night as well. But worth, worth noting, actually, this was in political playbook I was reading. Just before we started, they had an interesting anecdote from, I think it was the president of Slovakia who said, who was after everything went down last week. Let me make sure that I have this exactly right. He said is the prime minister of Slovakia. He said that a meeting with Donald Trump left him shocked by the US President's state of mind. He told EU leaders at a summit after meeting with Trump. And this is according to five European diplomats briefed on the conversation. This man is Robert Fico and he is, as Politico says, one of the few EU leaders to frequently support Trump's stance on Europe's weakness. He was concerned about the U.S. president's, quote, psychological state, according to two diplomats. And then Fico used the word quote dangerous to describe how the US President came across during their face to face meeting. So that is from a leader who was, who's pro Trump worth noting.
- [09:41]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. Fico is very sort of like MAGA adjacent kind of a guy.
- [09:46]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah. He spoke at, I'm pretty sure he spoke at one of the CPACs in the last year.
- [09:50]
Krystal Ball
Wow. So do you take that as he's actually sort of unhinged that he's, you know, this is like age decline. What do you read into that?
- [10:02]
Emily Jashinsky
My read is that it is age decline. You know, I think our standard of age decline is watching the dramatic decline of Joe Biden. Biden. But not everything that's age decline is going to look as dramatic as Joe Biden's decline looked in front of everybody as it was playing out. So I think it's. I'm a. That that's my best guess because I, when we've seen him and I think, you know, some of us have talked about this, Crystal, you, I Saga and Ryan have talked about this. He seemed different a little bit. I mean he's always. None of that surprised me that he just said about like for example, the family of Renee Good versus the family of Alex Pratty. I don't find that particularly surprising. But he does seemed lower energy in some of his public appearances.
- [10:47]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. Well, let's go ahead and put up this next development which is we have very few details about but is one to watch. There was a man shot in what's described as an incident involving border patrol in Arizona. Man who the FBI said has a criminal history of human smuggling was shot and wounded by a border patrol agent in Arizona on Tuesday after allegedly firing at agents. According to officials. Patrick Gary Schlegel, a 34 year old Arizona resident was shot around 7:30am in a revaca. I don't know how to say that. Sorry guys. About 10 miles north of the US Mexico border he was shot after a foot chase following a traffic stop related to an active alien smuggling matter. So that is what the government is saying. The government has often just flat out lied in these cases. So that might be what happened, it might not be what happened. But if we can put this next piece up on the screen, we now have a track, track record of more than a doz shootings involving ICE and various DHS agents. Per the Washington post, there were 16 different DHS shootings. You had quite a number where they initially charged the people who either were shot or shot at. For example, in the case of Miramar Martinez In Chicago. That's one we followed very closely. They claimed the agent was blocked in by 10 vehicles that she, the initial report was she grabbed a gun. Now she did have a weapon, much like Alex Preddy, that she was legally permitted to carry. She never touched the gun. Body camera footage came out and they dropped the charges and walked away from them. That has happened in a number of cases where you had these shootings from ICE or from CBP agents where they initially claim that, you know, we're going to arrest this person, we're going to file charges because they did something that provoked this was self defense, etc. And they've had to go on and drop the charges. And because once you know, you actually have to go to court and prove the claims that they're making, they are unable to do so.
- [12:50]
Emily Jashinsky
That's a good point. That their spin is actually, I think sometimes their spin is, is rather clever, but it is about galvanizing their own side so that people, I mean, this is what spin is, but it's so intentional that it's about sort of muddying the waters and galvanizing their, their own side in a way that makes it hard for some of these narratives to take off because I mean, some of the narratives have been misleading. Like the little guy last week. Like it's, that's, that's obviously a problem too, but it's, it's effective. And when you have to prove those claims in the court of law. I think these numbers are pretty interesting, Crystal.
- [13:33]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, well, and I mean, it also proves why it's been so important the people who are recording in Minneapolis, in and around Minneapolis, because without that footage, you know, it's just the government's word versus this individual. Or, you know, if in the case of Alex Pretty and Renee Good, obviously they can no longer speak for themselves. So that's why that mission of just recording everything that's going on has ended up being incredibly significant in a number of these instances in order to actually establish what truly happened, not just the government's spin, because that is exactly what they do. And you know, I think this ties in with like the NOAM versus Stephen Miller, Tom Homan versus Greg Bevino thing. Here is Miller, according to the NOAM camp, Miller said, okay, this is the narrative we're going with. He was a domestic terrorist, he was a would be assassin, he was planning maximum damage. And the reason they do that before, you know, anyone can even see the video to see what actually happened is, is that that has been their pattern and practice in the Past. And it has worked in a number of instances where they can at least get their narrative out. As you said, it muddies the water. Their supporters who want to believe them and want to back up their side of the story start spinning that out. And then by the time you have any sort of contradictory evidence, many people have already moved on again. I'm thinking of the case of Mary Martinez is another great example of that where right when it happened, before we had any of the surveillance footage or any of the other indications, you know, the right. Really believed the government's story that these ICE agents were under attack. They were, I think they were CBP actually were under attack, that they were blocked in, that it was self defense, et cetera. And then by the time it's all resolved, most of the country has moved on from the details of that and they haven't really thought too much about it. So it seems to me that they tried to run that exact same playbook here and it was just too undeniable. There was too much evidence, there was too much footage and what they claimed was so dissonant from the reality of what actually occurred, clearly.
- [15:44]
Emily Jashinsky
I mean, when you have officers involved in their lives or on the line, there's an incentive to spin from them as they are going up the chain of command and saying, yes, that's what happened to. And that's, that's why, by the way, with all of their new funding, every single one of them should have body cameras on. But that's not what's happening right now. The numbers are not that every single one of them has body cameras on. I think it's still a minority of them are actually wearing body cameras. The numbers are. The Washington Post had some numbers on that, but it's definitely not every one of them. Which is why we don't have body camera video and why in fact, in the Renee Good case, you had a guy holding his cell phone as he was patrolling that particular situation. So all this is to say you have a obvious set of incentives that is not towards, you know, the, the truth. Although now that everybody is filming, it does make it harder. I mean there's just. This case is one that I think the public's trust was kind of shattered because the news and in a nonpartisan way, like I think I just sent this to one of our messaging things. But this is from Alex Clark at Turning Point USA who said, I run a Facebook group of over 20,000 conservative women who are fans of my show. And the majority think the Alex Preddy shooting was unjustified And I know folks are making the argument that it's only optics that people are thinking the Alex Pareti cases, that other people in the public are losing faith in the Trump administration on all of this. But I also think when you were in the government and you come out with such a bold position that this guy was trying to do maximum damage, that he was there to massacre law enforcement. And there's probably a dozen videos taken from the scene where he's clearly just a average person involved in the protest or the disruption. However you want to talk about it, that is a really dramatic like that, that creates, that's the type of thing that creates a trust gap with your own, with independence and with people who are like, thinking, what do I want? What do I make of all of this? Like the entire approach. What do I make of the administration's entire approach to immigration? And plus, you layer the Second Amendment stuff on top of that. And yeah, it's Trump's political instincts. You can see he's kind of being torn. He understands there's a problem. And that speaks pretty loudly in and of itself, I think, well over a.
- [18:08]
Krystal Ball
Long enough time horizon. If you are a sycophantic Trump supporter, he is going to humiliate you. And he did that here because Stephen Miller, Kristi Noem, J.D. vance, all get out there over there, Greg Bevino over their skis, doing the thing they think Trump is going to want because that's what he's wanted. All this way of lie, cover up, never back down, never apologize. We're the good guys, they're the bad guys. That's how it is. You know, the children of the light versus the children of the dark. And then Trump sits back, sees the way that this is, that this is a disaster for him and he undercuts all of them. So all of, and not just the administration officials, like all of the, you know, right wing influencers, the Matt Walsh types who were out there going hard in the paint, going to the mat over, sorry, no pun intended, Matt Walsh. But anyway, going to the mat over, you know, backing up this completely bogus narrative about what happened. And then your guy just comes in and casually is like, no, this was a terrible incident and we're going to look into it. So, you know, I mean, this is, this is what he does now in terms of any sort of, like actual accountability here, put d. Wait, sorry, a five up on the screen. No civil rights violation investigation is going to happen. DHS is going to investigate themselves. They still, of course, are not cooperating with the local and state officials. They went to court to argue that they're allowed to destroy evidence in this and other cases. So that's the reality of what's happening behind the scenes. But in this case versus Renee Goode, they at least felt enough pressure to pretend to do some sort of investigation. So I guess we'll count that as progress. Um, let's go and put the next piece up on the screen because we do have some early indications from the initial DHS review and even this, you know, self review that I don't think anyone will really trust. Trust to be impartial. Even that already contradicts the initial narrative that came out to me. There were two important pieces of this breakdown. Number one, Predi did not brandish a gun. Of course, we already knew that because we all watched this. The only thing brandished was a phone. Emily. And, you know, our friends over at Newsmax did demonstrate how I, I guess, you know, you can brandish a phone like it's a weapon. But in any case, yeah, like the exact.
- [20:29]
Emily Jashinsky
I don't think we have the video, but you can look it up. Greg Kelly, just Kelly, like blue steel for the camera and was pulling a phone, making it. It looks like a gun, right? He's like, I don't know about you, but it looks like a gun.
- [20:41]
Krystal Ball
Ray Kelly's supposed to be trained law enforcement professionals. I'm pretty sure they could probably tell the difference between a gun and a phone. And if they can't, then that is a whole other issue that we need to think about. In any case, the other important detail there, which had come out in some of the New York Times, I think, video analysis, there were two separate agents that fired shots into Preddy. There were two agents, so I think there were 10 shots. Eight of them came from one guy, two of them came from another guy. So, you know, we've been thinking in terms largely of one individual responsible for this killing. And in fact, it was. It was two, which I think is significant because it speaks to, you know, this isn't just like a one off. This isn't a bad apple. This is two guys. And even, even if you give them the most charitable reading, that they thought there was, you know, a gun and they were under threat and they got spooked. After Alex Pretty is lying motionless on the ground, they continue to pump bullets into his body. So those were the two, I thought, significant parts of that investigation, that early evaluation from DHS. And if we put a 7 up on the screen, some new information came out. About Pretty himself, he had been recording, you know, this is something he had been doing. This wasn't his first time. And apparently previously he had. The week before he had had his ribs broken by federal agents. So it says. Federal immigration officers have been collecting personal information about protesters and agitators in Minneapolis, sources told cnn and had documented details about Alex Party before. Before he was shot to death on Saturday. It is unclear how Pretty first came to the attention of federal authorities, but sources told CNN about a week before his death he suffered a broken rib when a group of federal officers tackled him while he was protesting their attempt to detain other individuals. In a statement, DHS said DHS law enforcement has no record of this incident. A memo sent earlier this month to agents temporarily assigned to the city asked them to capture all images, license plate identifications and general information on hotels, agitators, protesters, et cetera, so we can capture it all in one consolidated form. So what CNN is claiming here is not only did Alex Party have his rib broken the previous week, which again speaks to the, you know, insanely, consistently insanely aggressive tactics of these federal agents. But the other part, Emily, that needs to be at least looked into is they're claiming that he was put into some sort of database of known protesters, known, quote unquote adjut dictators. And that raises the question over whether or not he was actively targeted by those, those agents on the scene who end up taking his life.
- [23:27]
Emily Jashinsky
I mean, I find the, the database possibility. I mean, sounds like it's a lot more than a possibility when you actually have agents out there, as the viral video from Maine showed, saying you're now in our database. I find that like highly disturbing.
- [23:42]
Krystal Ball
What I see, we consider you a domestic terrorist because we put you in that database. So yeah, I mean, logic would indicate that they viewed Alex Party in that same way.
- [23:55]
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- [24:25]
Matt
New year, new goals. And in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt.
- [24:32]
Joel
And I'm Joel.
- [24:32]
Matt
We are from the how to Money podcast. And every week, we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there.
- [24:39]
Joel
If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to how to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [24:52]
Podcast Narrator
What if mind control is real?
- [24:55]
Ken Klippenstein
If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?
- [24:58]
Podcast Narrator
Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?
- [25:01]
Donald Trump
When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.
- [25:06]
Podcast Narrator
Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?
- [25:08]
Grainger Advertiser
I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.
- [25:12]
Podcast Narrator
Can you get someone to join your cult?
- [25:14]
Ken Klippenstein
NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.
- [25:17]
Podcast Narrator
Nlp, AKA Neuro linguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.
- [25:28]
Grainger Advertiser
It's about engineering consciousness.
- [25:30]
Podcast Narrator
Mind Games is the story of nlp, its crazy cast of disciples, and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, nlp, might actually work.
- [25:48]
Emily Jashinsky
This is wild.
- [25:49]
Podcast Narrator
Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [25:57]
Emily Jashinsky
What I see in the Preddy video and what I see in the Rene Good video, and I would. What I see in so many of these videos is more of a Keystone Cop situation than an operation that is, like, finely tuned to target people like Preddy. Like in that video, for example, it seems as though to me CBP was trying to deal with the woman and Pretty stepped in between them and the woman, and that's where it all went south. And so I don't know. I. I'm skeptical.
- [26:24]
Krystal Ball
Even with that. Even with that, like, why were they assaulting this woman? Why did they push her to the ground? To the two women that were there, why did they push them to the ground? Why did they pepper spray them? Why did they pepper spray Alex Party? Like, none of it was necessary at all. Which is why I say, I think you're right. And this is very typical of this administration that there is a Keystone Cops element to what they do. But they're also, you know, you had Trump himself saying that they're coming to Minneapolis or Minnesota retribution, right? The. You have the Vice President, United States saying, these guys have, quote, unquote absolute immunity after they killed Renee Good. So, of course, they took that message from the top that this is what the. The President of the United States wants me to be doing, wants me to be roughing up and assaulting and do and, you know, just terrorizing these communities, which is why you don't see it, you know, in one or two instances where it seems to be nearly every interaction is not to de. Escalate, but to ramp things up, but to escalate to the next level, but to create these incredibly chaotic, dangerous and violent situations.
- [27:33]
Emily Jashinsky
The story that seems to be emerging is someone ICE was looking for ran into the donut shop. And we're still obviously trying to get the pieces of the puzzle put together here, but someone ran into the donut shop. And because the ICE watchers had identified a vehicle, they started kind of dispatching themselves over to this block and making it difficult for ICE to then apprehend the suspected migrant or whomever was in the donut shop or whatever part of that operation where they're trying to nab someone. And so, I mean, when I look at the Pretty broken ribs story, it does make more sense to me that his parents were worried about him. I think people are right to be worried about anyone who's going out in this situation. I know many of our viewers are probably going out and protesting. And I just, just, you know, Kilmar Abrego Garcia is a good example to me of somebody who the administration admitted a, what did they say, like a administrative error, clerical error or something like that when he was originally deported and is playing out in court right now. And I think that's a much less chaotic and much safer way for everybody to fight some of these battles. So it doesn't excuse Keystone Coppery at all. And that's definitely what we're seeing on the streets of Minneapolis. But that is my sort of big picture perspective on all of the chaos.
- [28:55]
Krystal Ball
Let's take a look at some of this infighting here. So let's put a 8 up on the screen immediately after, you know, when Trump starts to show that he's uneasy with the lies that were told and labels this a quote, unquote, unfortunate incident. Won't call Ax Pretty an assassin, won't say he's a domestic terrorist. It's Kristi Noem and Greg Bevino that are. Are the initial fall guys. But Vino's pulled out of Minneapolis and back to California. Tom Homan brought in instead. And here you have from Axios, quote, Kristine Homes, language that Alex Pretty wanted To massacre federal agents was dictated to Noem and her department by the man most responsible for the controversial operation, Stephen Miller. And I will tell you, Emily, like, I have zero love for Christy Noem, but I actually find this report to be very credible. And one of the things Kyle actually pointed out to me, which was a good point. Remember back what feels like a million years ago when we had the whole signal gate controversy and we got to see the internal communications with a variety of top level aides to include Stephen Miller when they decided to go forward with the Yemen bombing. It was when he came in over the top and said, hey, the big guy says we're going, so we're going. And really positioned himself as speaking for the president. You know, the president has effectively, Trump has effectively put Stephen Miller, like this is, is one of your, he has a lot in his portfolio, but this whole, like immigration, mass deportation, flooding the zone with these federal agents occupying these cities, this is your, this is your zone. And so what I, my guess, having zero inside knowledge of what happened here, is that you got some information, perhaps even somewhat inaccurate information from the agents on the ground that there was a gun, because they in real time seemed confused about what they're doing.
- [30:51]
Emily Jashinsky
They're, when his body is prone on the ground, they're saying, some of them are saying, where's the gun? Where's the gun? Not even realizing. And this, the Washington Post did an analysis from where they watched the video or they had law enforcement experts watch the video. And one of the things the experts said, which is obvious to anybody who saw it, is if you disarm him, you say he's been disarmed. I have the gun. I have the gun. And instead they seem to have had, some of them seem to have not known that he was disarmed, which will be a very big question legally, of course, but obviously some of them knew he was disarmed. At least one of them knew he was disarmed because he disarmed him. But why did he not say, we don't see in any of the videos he has been disarmed. He has been disarmed. Clearly they didn't know.
- [31:32]
Krystal Ball
So in any case, it's possible that some inaccurate information came from the agents on the ground. They immediately, without missing a beat, spin it into this narrative of he's a would be assassin trying to commit a massacre, mass murder, et cetera, et cetera. And it would, it does not surprise me at all that that specific language and the imprimatur of this is what the big guy wants would come from Stephen Miller. I wonder what you make of that, given what you know of the internal dynamics.
- [32:04]
Emily Jashinsky
There have been reports that Stephen Miller is really driving. There have been reports for a year now that Stephen Miller is, is driving dhs, that he's doing briefings with them. And it's coming top down from Stephen Miller bypassing gnome in some cases. I wonder if this leak is pretty intention. Kristi Noem is trying to save her job and is trying to say, hey, Stephen Miller. This came from Stephen Miller.
- [32:26]
Krystal Ball
Oh, of course it is. Yeah.
- [32:28]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah. And it's, it's, it's amazing because, like, I think what likely happened is Stephen Miller told her to say that and she was like, oh, yeah, she was happy to say what Stephen Miller told her to say. I mean, it's as though it's, it's not as though she's, you know, some toddler who can't formulate her own thoughts and isn't responsible for telling the American public the truth. She went out and spun it. She did that interview with Peter Doocyte from the building where she was like going into detail with these claims and standing by them. And a point that you made earlier, I just wanted to underline, which was they know this is what Trump wants to see in, you know, 80% of cases. And what happened in this case is I think those who kept their powder dry genuinely did not intend upon there. But those who kept their powder dry ended up being closer to Trump because Trump realized that the people who were pit bulls, super aggressive in the messaging from the beginning made the administration look bad because there was so much daylight between what they said and what happened. And that's where you had Caroline Levitt, someone who largely kept her powder dry, telling reporters at the briefing the other day when she was asked if Trump has. Trump agreed that Pretty was a, quote, domestic terrorist. She said she has not heard President Trump, quote, characterize Mr. Pred in that way, which, to the point you made earlier, Crystal, that if you, if you really, really know Trump, then you would understand sometimes he's not gonna, like, like, sometimes his instincts are different than the MAGA instinct because he doesn't come from the right. Like, he's a Republican now, but he comes from, like, TV world and has a history as a Democrat. Like, he's from New York. He just has a different background. And that, that is, I mean, a serious problem for, for Krist. But clearly, I think, trying to telegraph that she wasn't ultimately to blame, which.
- [34:28]
Krystal Ball
You'Re an adult all of these People are to blame up to and including the President, United States, who ultimately the buck should stop with.
- [34:35]
Emily Jashinsky
And people are forgetting he put out. Let me. He put out a post on Truth Social saying something similar. I'm not. I'm not gonna be able to find it because he's truth so many times the last few days. But he right away said something similar too, but he didn't go on camera. So.
- [34:50]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. Well, last piece. Let's put this up on the screen. Stephen Miller trying to sort of like, you know, another way of him washing his hands of any sort of accountability for, you know, I mean, this whole project is really his project. This whole, like, ethno nationalist, you know, occupying liberal cities. This is all Stephen Miller, truly. I don't think anyone really believes Kristi Noem is like, the brains behind all of these operations. In any case, it says. This is from cnn. White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller says officials are evaluating why Customs and Border Protection agents in Minneapolis may not have been following proper protocol before the fatal shooting of VA nurse Alex Preddy. In a statement to cnn, Miller said the White House had, quote, provided clear guidance to DHS that the extra personnel that have been sent to Minnesota for force protection should be used for conducting fugitive operations to create a physical barrier between the arrest teams and the disruptors. We're evaluating why the CBP team may not have been following that, that protocol. And I mean, this is just really rich from Stephen Miller from this White House, which again, said that these thugs had, quote, unquote, absolute immunity after they had just killed the, you know, another American citizen. Renee Good. So the message went out from the top that we want you to be thugs, we want you to terrorize, we want you to rampage and, and like, strike fear in the hearts of these communities. And that's exactly what they got. Now, again, I agree with you that they. There's a lot of buffoonishness and like, you know, especially the new ICE recruits. But it's worth noting that both the agent that killed. That killed Alex Party and the one who killed Renee Good, these are not new recruits. These were people with many years serving in these positions. So presumably training is not the issue here. I think what they were getting in terms of what they were supposed to do from leadership, like, this is what leadership was pushing them to do. This is what had been condoned. This is effectively, you know, up until the point that it became undeniable and there started to be a political backlash, they were doing exactly what Trump. J.D. vance, Stephen Miller, Kristi noem you know, Tom Homan, Greg Bevino, what all of them wanted them to do in these places.
- [37:06]
Emily Jashinsky
Well, and here's why I think Kristi Noem's job is in trouble. She has been a source of skepticism since the very beginning among the like furthest right immigration hawks. And I'm saying this as somebody who's pretty pro deportations. I don't know how anyone defines mass deportations, but the majority of the public, when Donald Trump took office again, he was above water on the issue of immigration. He was, his polling was above a majority of the country who supported his immigration agenda and supported mass deportations. And the question of how you define that is obviously important and what methods you use is obviously important. But there are a whole lot of people on the right who look at Kristi Noem and see that she has, has led the agency into chaos. Now, of course, they're not in an easy situation. They have very organized activist groups that are intentionally making life very difficult for them. And the left is, I think, correctly pointing out they are successfully making life very difficult for them and for the agents and even experienced agents, as we just pointed out. So they're not like in an easy situation. No question about that. But now, Kristi Noem, that comes to a head when people look around and realize this entire year long operation looks like a bungled public relations campaign rather than something that would have been orderly and substantive. Now many people are saying you're not going after employers at all. What about the guys who own the meatpacking plant where, why aren't they in cuffs? Why are you picking random people out of the streets and not going after the Americans who have employed them knowingly? Are you investigating that at all? Is anybody in trouble over that? So, I mean, this is all coming to a head for Kristi Noem. And I think she's very, very vulnerable. She might just get a Bovino style demotion because Trump doesn't like to concede anything but.
- [38:59]
Krystal Ball
Right.
- [39:00]
Emily Jashinsky
I think she's, she's really on the line right now though.
- [39:02]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, she could just be sidelined and end up, you know, in a sort of like Tulsi Gabbard like state where you still have the title, but it doesn't, doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot. All right, let's go ahead and get to this news about Ilhan Omar.
- [39:15]
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- [39:45]
Matt
New Year, New goals and in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt and I'm Joel. We are from the how to Money podcast and every week we help you to spend smart money, save more and make sense of what's going on out there.
- [39:59]
Joel
If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to how to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [40:12]
Podcast Narrator
What if mind control is real?
- [40:15]
Ken Klippenstein
If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?
- [40:18]
Podcast Narrator
Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?
- [40:21]
Donald Trump
When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.
- [40:25]
Podcast Narrator
Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?
- [40:28]
Grainger Advertiser
I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.
- [40:32]
Podcast Narrator
Can you get someone to join your cult?
- [40:34]
Ken Klippenstein
NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.
- [40:37]
Podcast Narrator
Nlp, AKA Neuro Linguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.
- [40:48]
Grainger Advertiser
It's about engineering consciousness.
- [40:50]
Podcast Narrator
Mind Games is the story of nlp, its crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, nlp might actually work.
- [41:08]
Emily Jashinsky
This is wild.
- [41:09]
Podcast Narrator
Listen to mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [41:17]
Krystal Ball
Wild scene in Minneapolis where Ilhan Omar was attacked in a town hall. So she was there, you know, speaking to constituents. And at a moment when she was calling for ice to be abolished and Christy Kristi Noem to be impeached, a man charges at her, squirts her with some foul smelling liquid. They say it smelled strongly of vinegar. It was like this disgusting brown color. We still don't know what it is. He has now been arrested. But just take a look at this whole scene is so crazy.
- [41:48]
Emily Jashinsky
Secretary Christine must resign or face impeachment. I don't know. Oh my God, he's breaking.
- [42:07]
Ken Klippenstein
Need a napkin.
- [42:08]
Krystal Ball
I need.
- [42:09]
Emily Jashinsky
I need a napkin. To know nothing no, no, we'll go, we'll continue. No, we will continue. No, no, no. You need to go check. We will continue. These are not going to get away with. We are Minnesota strong and we are thin.
- [42:37]
Krystal Ball
So there's no.
- [42:38]
Emily Jashinsky
No.
- [42:38]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, well, this, I mean, we'll, we'll talk about her responses, which is wild. But we do have one more angle of this. Let's go ahead and take a look at this one as well.
- [42:46]
Emily Jashinsky
Impeachment. Well, that's a great angle to talk about her response.
- [42:56]
Krystal Ball
Right, because she charges at him. She's like. And she like raises her arms like she's gonna take him out. I mean, that was, would listen, that would not be my response. More power to her.
- [43:07]
Emily Jashinsky
I think it might be, I think it might be your response.
- [43:09]
Krystal Ball
I mean, I guess you never know until you're in that situation. But the fact that you get sprayed with this liquid is so disturbing. And you know, that would, that would really freak me out. By the way, this guy's been arrested. I can look at what his name is. People pull to social media. Appears to be a Trump supporter, follows, you know, some like well known MAGA influencer type personality. But obviously very unnerving. Unnerving and disturbing situation.
- [43:37]
Emily Jashinsky
Well, it's from a syringe too. So you really, I mean the fact that he sprayed something out of a syringe allegedly here is, I mean, obviously horrifying if you're on the other end of something getting squirted out of a syringe at a town hall event. Now credit where it's due. Politicians are such lame losers. Babies like across the board. Crystal, you know this and that second angle, what you saw was Ilhan Omar basically charged to the guy, this big dude which if you're in the listening audience, this guy is a, he's probably like 6 foot 2, 20 or something like that. I'm just guessing. And Ilhan Omar, who is tiny, as much as I may disagree with this woman and credit where it's due, that was badass.
- [44:25]
Krystal Ball
Totally. His name is Anthony Kazmierzak, 55 years old. And you know, Ilhan has long been a lightning rod for conservative attacks. Trump has really fixated on her recently. In fact, just hours before this attack occurred, he was talking about her at his Iowa rally. You know, even his. We have his response here. Put a 13 up on the, actually put a 12 first to get a sense of the, of the type of things that he's been saying about her. And this is just like all the time he's going after her he said there is $19 billion in Minnesota. Somalia fraud, fake. Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, a constant complainer who hates the usa knows everything there is to know. She should be in jail or even a worse punishment sent back to Somalia. Consider one of the absolutely worst countries in the world. She could help Somalia. Great. Again put the next one up on the screen. He was asked for his reaction to this attack. And while you had some, you know, Republican members like Nancy Mace came out with a very gracious statement. Not so from President Trump. He said I this is from a reporter just spoke to President Trump. I asked him if he'd seen the video of Representative Omar being attacked and sprayed by a substance quote no, I don't think about her, her lies because he talks about her all the time. Had just been talking about her earlier in the day. In any case he goes on, he says I think she's a fraud. I really don't think about that. She probably had herself sprayed knowing her. The President said I asked again if he had seen the video. I haven't seen it. No. No. I hope I don't have to bother. So there is your response from Trump.
- [46:08]
Emily Jashinsky
Just classic Donald Trump. It's like from the Charlie Kirk memorial service where he was like this is the one thing I disagree with Erica on. We don't forgive. Just typical callback to that mentality he demonstrated in the moment. But yeah, I mean I, I've seen also should pull this up. There's been criticism of the, the level of charges that actually have been dropped. So Mike Davis from the Article 3 project he posted in response to the fact that the guy is only getting I think he is yes state third degree assault charges. He said attacking a member of Congress is a federal crime. The Justice Department must fully investigate this attack. The FBI must interview the suspect along with obtaining a material statement of fact from Ilhan Omar. No one is above the law because yeah again he's just being held on third degree assault charges. So there's a little duty for the federal government from Mike Davis.
- [47:07]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, no that's actually, that's a very good point. And you know I listen credit to Ilhan incredible like just in the moment courage and not just from her initial instinct to charge at this guy but then her staff are like we gotta get outta here. You gotta get checked out. We gotta end this 10 town hall. And she's like no, I'm not gonna let this asshole steal the show. We're going to continue. Like just give me a few minutes. Let me gather myself and people in the audience were also understandably very unnerved and upset because it's the sort of thing where, you know, and again, we still don't even know what this substance was. It's been sent for testing and it looked horrifying. It's like this brown liquid in a syringe, like you said. But you know, it really shatters your sense of, of safety, right? Because if he had had a gun, like it's all over, you know, I.
- [48:02]
Emily Jashinsky
Mean, that's great point.
- [48:03]
Krystal Ball
We're also, we are all as humans, incredibly fragile beings, right? It takes us having this shared social contract and sense of, you know, personal safety and trust in one another to be able to just go about and live our lives, let alone when you're an incredibly, I mean, just constantly demonized and attacked figure like Ilhan Omar. For her even to do this town hall to begin with with was, was like a fantastic act of courage, to be honest, given the level of threat that she faces on a daily basis.
- [48:37]
Emily Jashinsky
I wonder if there were pat downs, security to get into a town hall, which by the way, you shouldn't. I mean, it's a very sad statement on where we are. You shouldn't have to do a pat down to get into a political town hall. But I wonder if they actually were checking for weapons. If there were metal detectors or anything like that, obviously a syringe wouldn't be found. But to Crystal's point about a gun, you know, William McKinley got shot point blank by someone who had a gun like wrapped on the hand, right? And now you have a lot more security when people get that close to the president, but a member of Congress, they're going in and out of those types of town halls and the country is obviously a powder keg. It feels like, you know, it feels like things are not getting better, but getting worse. I think that's kind of an obvious thing to say. Even though the Trump administration is trying to calm the situation in Minneapolis now, realizing, as Ken Clippinson will tell us in a bit, that there's clear chaos even being understood inside as chaos, inside these agencies and departments as chaos. So even though they're trying to now calm the situation or fix the situation, repair their own agencies, just feels like things are only getting worse. Crystal?
- [49:55]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, I think we'll probably see more and more congressional security, more and more of that screening just to get into any sort of interaction with members of Congress. And inevitably when you have that, it means that your representative is going to be less accessible. It means that, you know, you already have had this trend of them not doing debates and a few doing fewer and fewer town halls, shutting themselves off in the public. And unfortunately, these sorts of attacks and threats are only going to make that even more of a reality and give them even more of an excuse to close themselves off from any sort of public access.
- [50:29]
Emily Jashinsky
Sad times. And when the ecosystem is so fragile. I don't know. David Betts, who's a Civil War historian, is from the uk. He's been doing some interesting work on what it would take to precipitate something that becomes a rolling civil conflict in the west, whether it's in the UK or the United States. And the conditions feel very familiar that he studied in the past, feel, feel very familiar now. So folks should go check him out if they're interested in going deep on where this could, how this could escalate and spiral. Obviously the Charlie Kirk assassination was in September and everyone tries to have unity after that. You know, Dems responded. Some, like high profile Dems responded in a way where they're like, this is going too far. We need to de escalate. Crystal. There's been no de escalation at all. And here we are in January and it seems as though. So it's only getting much worse.
- [51:24]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, indeed. All right, well, we've got Ken standing by, so let's go ahead and get to him on his latest reporting inside of dhs.
- [51:32]
Matt
Resolutions got you down.
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Ken Klippenstein
Scoop it or swirl it. That's the sound of not giving up.
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Matt
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Emily Jashinsky
Home.
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Matt
No skimping on flavor.
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Ken Klippenstein
Eat dessert. Hit your macros.
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Matt
Repeat.
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Ken Klippenstein
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Matt
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Ken Klippenstein
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- [52:02]
Matt
New year, new goals. And in this economy, a better money plan is more necessary than ever. I am Matt.
- [52:09]
Joel
And I'm Joel.
- [52:09]
Matt
We are from the how to Money podcast. And every week we help you to spend smarter, save more, and make sense of what's going on out there.
- [52:16]
Joel
If you want 2026 to be the year you finally feel in control of your money, we're here to give you the tools and advice to help you make it happen. Listen to how to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [52:29]
Podcast Narrator
What if mind control is real?
- [52:32]
Ken Klippenstein
If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?
- [52:35]
Podcast Narrator
Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car?
- [52:38]
Donald Trump
When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings.
- [52:43]
Podcast Narrator
Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?
- [52:45]
Grainger Advertiser
I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused.
- [52:49]
Podcast Narrator
Can you get someone to join your cult?
- [52:51]
Ken Klippenstein
NLP was used on me to access my subconscious.
- [52:54]
Podcast Narrator
Nlp, AKA Neuro Linguistic programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.
- [53:05]
Grainger Advertiser
It's about engineering consciousness.
- [53:07]
Podcast Narrator
Mind Games is the story of nlp, its crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a new age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all, NLP might actually work.
- [53:25]
Emily Jashinsky
This is wild.
- [53:26]
Podcast Narrator
Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [53:34]
Emily Jashinsky
We're always happy to be joined by Ken Clippinstein. He joins us now. Make sure to follow Ken on his website, Ken klevenstein.com that's where you can follow his substack. Follow him on X wherever you get your news. Ken is there and he has been reporting from inside the bowels of ICE and Customs and Border Protection where he's getting leaks. And those leaks paint a picture of the internal dynamics at these agencies that have been tested enormously over the last several months. Ken is out with a new report. That was Ken. I saw this yesterday linked on the Drudge Report. By the way, you probably already know that, but mega traffic, mega traffic. So everyone was posting this and some of the quotes just from Ken's sources. Here's one. One ICE agent tells Ken, I can go on and on, but overall it's been a ridiculous experience. One says, as much as I support this administration, there needs to be more common sense in situations like this, not a knee jerk damage control narrative that does not line up with the evidence on video. That was from a Border Patrol agent. So, Ken, thanks for joining us. Please walk us through your reporting here. What are you hearing from inside these agencies?
- [54:48]
Ken Klippenstein
Well, one of the things that surprised me most was I asked each of the people I interviewed, which is eight people from both ICE and Border Patrol. One of the most surprising things was asking about the shooting this past week. And every single one of them blamed the Border Patrol officers involved. And I want to stress that's not coming from some liberal lefty position. I think every person I talked to, maybe with the exception of one, were Republicans. They just thought it was unprofessional, chaotic and crazy. And when you talk to them, you get the impression of an episode of Reno911 more than some federal elite law enforcement response like it's been framed by the administration. And they would basically say that themselves because they've been inundated, been young, inexperienced recruits who I thought when I talk to them, they'd be excited about this tripling of the ICE law enforcement budget. All of them said that these new recruits are useless because they haven't been trained, they don't know what the hell's going on. They've been dumped into this foreign context that is completely different from where Border Patrol usually primarily operates or even what ICE typically does. And so it was kind of this topsy turvy, like, opposite in so many ways of what I'd expected that I was going to find when I talked to them, because they all support immigration enforcement in principle. They just don't support what's taking place because it's not immigration enforcement. It's become a national security mission, as was described to me, a counterinsurgency against the protesters on the ground who the federal government perceives to be terrorists. And they've said that openly.
- [56:23]
Krystal Ball
How does that square, Ken, with the fact that the guys we see out there in Minneapolis seem pretty enthusiastic about what they're up to? You know, they, they seem to be into the mission of, you know, randomly brutalizing people that they encounter and pulling random people off the street, etc. Etc. So how do those two things square in your view?
- [56:45]
Ken Klippenstein
So that's, you're seeing a big selection bias in the people that actually get sent out to there because the more experienced people are pulling every lever they can to try to avoid these deployments because they don't want to be involved in any of this. And so the people that you're going to see out there are either going to be the young recruits that have just been hired off of these crazy memes and recruitment push that you're seeing by ice, and that's going to filter for a certain type of person. And the second point is that the people that are being sent there are doing so on a volunteer basis. The government is not handling this like they normally would, where they just say, okay, you, you and you, you're going to go out there because you have the skill set that we want. And this has been described to me, but by a bunch of different agents. I don't know if it's been reported, but they're going on saying, so who wants to go? And that's a sign, first of all, that they're worried that people don't want to go they don't want to send people out there that don't support the mission, are going to drag their heels and things. And second of all, that's going to get the really gung ho people that are like, yeah, when I talk to people for this story, what came up again, again was these are the types that want to go and get in an altercation and really buy into this idea of the protesters as some kind of, of radical insurgency that we need to counter. And I think that explains a lot of the just crazy levels of just, you know, macho and like, aggressiveness that we're seeing posted to social media all the time, is that these are. This is the most aggressive part of the agency that's going out there.
- [58:09]
Emily Jashinsky
Well, it's something interesting. I mean, we can roll B2 here. This is an officer, federal law enforcement officer. I don't know if he's CBP or ice. I think he's ice, who appears to be. People thought he was a little drunk. I thought he was woozy. I don't know if it was from like some chemical irritant that had been sprayed. This is outside the Home2 Suites Hilton where people were believed that ice was staying. And we're disrupting it all night trying to make sure that the ICE agents got no sleep and the like. You've probably seen people have probably seen a lot of viral videos from this particular scene. I believe this was Sunday night. We can go ahead, roll the clip and then we'll get Ken's reaction.
- [58:53]
Ken Klippenstein
Are you okay?
- [58:54]
Donald Trump
I'm fine.
- [58:55]
Ken Klippenstein
Are you okay?
- [58:57]
Donald Trump
I'm fine. Where's the local produce? That's my question for the press.
- [59:06]
Ken Klippenstein
Where's the local producer?
- [59:11]
Emily Jashinsky
Have any comments?
- [59:14]
Ken Klippenstein
Please give me some room.
- [59:19]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, here's a ICE guy mooning the protesters from above for the listening audience.
- [59:26]
Krystal Ball
They all had their hands too, by the way, of some sort ass.
- [59:29]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah.
- [59:30]
Krystal Ball
And Ken, I think you've reported professional, professional behavior here.
- [59:34]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, Ken, I think you reported there's been some drinking on the job. But one of the things I also found interesting from your ICE on Lowe's report that people can check out@kenklippenstein.com is you mentioned a lot of these guys are not on the left. How are they? Like, what do they want to see done? They know they're not in an easy situation. So what is their. I mean, obviously having the support of the local law enforcement has helped them and that's what they want. And you can understand why they would want that. But how do they. It's not like, they're welcoming the anti ICE protesters. They understand that that's created a challenging situation. So what more do they want to see? Is it leadership organ and what are they looking for?
- [60:18]
Ken Klippenstein
I mean, they're opposed to the entire idea of this massive federal deployment that they. They don't want to fight a counterinsurgency. They hate this. And it's really interesting to talk to them because the admin is very triumphalist about all this. We're never going to back down. And this is so popular. Virtually all the guys I talked to think this is a disaster for the agency, that long term it's going to just destroy the reputation of it and that they won't be able to do what frankly a lot of them, you know, believe in, which is prioritizing violent felons. I mean, there's a range of attitudes. Some of them want to just, you know, deport anyone who is here without legal status. But a lot of them also, you know, they have this cop mentality of like, I signed up to fight like cartels and like, I hope that I can get sort of these powerful people that we want to remove from the country. And now it's like, I have to go and deal with protesters in crowd control. And it's like I would have signed up for. For the National Guard or something like that. If I want to do that, I don't want to do that. It's just so. It's like really profoundly demoralizing. And something that struck me was how much they are hearing the protesters, like, not. I'm, you know, I don't want to give you the impression that they're like, gonna go out there and. And wave a, you know, like, wave the flag of like, the left or something. But it's like they. They hear that and they find it embarrassing and depressing and like, it was almost despondent. And it was so weird. Cause I just. I go from that to talking to, like, some of my lefty friends are like, like, you know, what difference does any of this make? We're not reaching anybody. It's like they hear and see that stuff. And they might not perceive it the same way that. That people on the left do, but that factors into their judgment about what is going on. And so this whole thing of, like, it being this massive mission, they could just be doing enforcement with the coordination of state and local government. It wouldn't be this kind of, like, spectacle, you know, so they're opposed to all of it.
- [62:07]
Krystal Ball
How internally do the ICE agents view cb? How Does CBP view ice? And I'm thinking about this in the context of, you know, we're starting to get the demands from some Senate Democrats about the changes that they would want to see in order to sign off on DHS funding. And one of the things is these CBP agents, they need to go back to the border. As part of the switch out in leadership from Bavino to Tom Homan, some CBP agents were apparently pulled as well. We have no idea how many, in any case. Case, you know, help us understand some of the cultural differences between those two agencies.
- [62:44]
Ken Klippenstein
Yeah, so when it comes to Border patrol, it's really alarming. Some of the resources they're tapping, they've sent BORTAC out, which is kind of like the original Special Forces. And just so you said, culturally, culturally at the border, it's a very different environment than it is within the interior. I was talking to one border patrol agent who said, you know, you just have a lot fewer civil liberties at the border, like when you're in an airport, for instance, because the laws are just completely different. And the idea at least is supposed to be like, okay, well, this is like people entering the country. So it's kind of like got to be a heightened state of security. So that's the mindset they come into this mission with. And you can't just snap your fingers, say, all right, now you're just in an American city and you've got to forget all that. They're not going to forget that. Like, they have a very different worldview. They actually will have, you know, dealt with cartels and things at some level, human trafficking at the border. And so they bring all of those assumptions in that lens to Minneapolis or, you know, whatever city. And that's how they're going to see things. So, you know, and this was a border patrol agent telling me this. It's like, you know, it's a very different world out there in the Southwest, where you have, you know, coyotes and you have. You have real human trafficking and, you know, some amount of it. Like, they didn't sound hysterical. But then it's like you come into the city, not only is the population different, the attitudes are different. Like, there are all these videos of ICE officers slipping and falling in the ice. I asked them about that. They said, well, these are boys from the Southwest. Like, a lot of them have literally never been somewhere with ice. They don't how to walk on it. So it's like they're in this far away alien land that, like, sounds to me it's like, they're talking about Vietnam where the locals hate them and. No, seriously, like. Yeah, they're. They don't know what's going on. They hate the officer corps. They don't trust the leadership. They don't want to be here. And I was really surprised because I thought. I assumed there'd be some level of criticism, but it was like, far beyond, like, what, you know, and including from young recruits. One young recruit told me. He's like, yeah. I looked at the other. Other guys that joined along with me, and it was like. He said. The word he used was sketchy. He said, these guys are passing a flask around while we're supposed to be at a stakeout following, by the way. Yeah, seriously. That's why when. As soon as I wrote that story, I started getting replies. People posting video of ICE officers drinking at these hotels. And it was, like, clear that this is like a systemic thing more than just these crazy anecdotes that I got.
- [65:01]
Emily Jashinsky
Well, and you. Oh, go ahead, Crystal.
- [65:03]
Krystal Ball
Well, I was just gonna ask, you know, there's a. An attempt from the administration right now to sort of send out this. They're trying to do pr, right? They're trying to say, like, this was some bad apples. Stephen Miller even came out and was like, the. These agents weren't following protocol. They weren't doing what we wanted them to do. There was the leadership shift from, okay, we're sending Bavino back to California. He's getting demoted. We've got Tom Homan coming in. He's the law enforcement professional. It's going to be a totally different day and different approach. What have you found in terms of what's being communicated internally about whether there is a true pivot here? Because while, you know, obviously, and for understandable reasons, the murder of Renee Good and of Alex Preddy have really captured, you know, the public's attention and have created a lot of horror. I talked to legal analyst Kyle Cheney yesterday. He's tracking 2300 cases where the administration has just completely flouted judges orders and are arresting and deporting people illegally. So there is a systematic problem in the approach from top to bottom, which is utterly lawless. You know, is there any indication that there's an intent to change that overall approach?
- [66:22]
Emily Jashinsky
Well, and let's put before up on the screen, too, because, Ken, this is. You got a border Patrol memo about the federal government.
- [66:27]
Ken Klippenstein
That's what I was going to reference.
- [66:28]
Emily Jashinsky
Can. Yeah. So, yeah, we can throw a B4 up on the screen. Ken, this is your reporting. You obtained this memo. So tell us what this means.
- [66:37]
Ken Klippenstein
So after Bovino was reassigned and everybody sees this and it leads to this discourse, a friend of mine in CBP says, hey, we just got this. And, you know, as it shows on the screen there, it says we are at a, quote, steady state kind of military speak for like, everything's going to stay the same and we're going to maintain it and the operations are going to continue as planned. So I think that there's kind of a tug of war going, going on right now. I don't think the right reaction to that is like, oh, nothing. You know, none of this made any difference. They're under a lot of pressure right now, but Trump is being pulled by his base, who doesn't want him to concede anything. But then on the other side, there's Congress has finally gotten off its ass and, and, you know, requested hearings and, and even the, the Republican leadership and a lot of these relevant committees. So he's under a lot of pressure right now to try to feel like he can give both sides of. That's something. But, you know, I want to stress, like, again, when you talk to ICE and Border Patrol, they see this as devastating for the agency and as something that is going to outlive the Trump administration. But to Crystal's point about policies and what they're allowed to do, the admin is talking out of both sides of its mouth because internally, and I've reported a lot of these slides and briefings, they're being told, oh, here's what you can't do. You know, people are allowed to film you. They can even curse at you and swear and things. So, so the legal counsel within Homeland Security has basically said all the things they're supposed to say, but it's kind of like they're fighting against the admin, which publicly is calling these guys terrorists. And just think about, aside from policy, think about the psychological, like, effect of, of your boss's boss's boss. The, the, the admin saying every day that it's some insurgency, it's terrorists, it's an assault on liberty, they're going to overthrow the dark. All these things. It's like, and then lawyers like, oh, by the way, you can't do this. Like, it's confusing. And if you're a young recruit in particular, there won't have been that sort of antibodies built up of like, okay, well, whoever's in the White House, this is how we do things. Like, they're going to listen to this stuff and consume it and act on that basis. So it's kind of.
- [68:43]
Krystal Ball
I mean, they called the Jonathan Ross, the guy who killed Renee Good. They called him a hero. So. And JD Van says they have absolute immune community. So what message does that send to people about the way that they want you to behave? And look, I think that Jonathan Ross murdered Renee Good. I think Emily disagrees in what the legal definition would be. How are you feel about that? Nobody, Nobody who has looked at this, nobody who has any law enforcement experience thinks that Jonathan Ross behaved in the correct way there. I mean, he put himself in danger by going in front of the vehicle to begin with. Officer created jeopardy. And that guy they called, they said he's a hero. They, you know, people were raising money for him. So, of course, that's the message that's received is like the most belligerent, aggressive tactics against a group of people who have been labeled literal domestic terrorists and are being entered into a database and being tracked by our government as domestic terrorists. Terrorists, yeah. What sort of behavior do you think that is going to create among not just the new recruits, but all these guys? I mean, the two. The two killers here? Well, actually three, because we now know there were two agents that fired on Alex Preddy. These were not new recruits. These were guys who had years and years of experience, which I think is, you know, a very important fact here, because you can't just sort of shift it off to like, oh, we got these new bunch of hooligans in and they don't know what they're doing. Doing.
- [70:16]
Ken Klippenstein
Yeah, totally. And again, it's an ideological thing. I mean, there's a range of people and people that talk to me. That's not a scientific sample. It wasn't a partisan sample. Like some people are saying, like, oh, just Democrats. The idea of Democrats working for ice.
- [70:30]
Krystal Ball
Like Democratic liberal ICE agents. Guys, come on.
- [70:35]
Ken Klippenstein
Come on.
- [70:38]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, Signing bonus, guys. I don't know. I'm sorry.
- [70:42]
Ken Klippenstein
I had to do it. What do you want from me? Journalism doesn't pay, man.
- [70:45]
Emily Jashinsky
Need more money for Matcha.
- [70:49]
Ken Klippenstein
So, yeah, you talk to these guys and it's like, you know, that's the way to advancement. That's the way to, you know, doing. Doing what the admin wants.
- [70:57]
Podcast Narrator
And.
- [70:57]
Ken Klippenstein
And you talk to them about these briefings that they're getting where they're like, oh, you can't do this and this. All the agents I talked to were like, yeah, that's just legal. Checking a box so that then the admin can say later if there's some kind of, like, investigation, like what do you want? We had our legal compliance tell them what they, what they can do and what they can't do. But what that's missing is like what you just said, Crystal, which is that all the leaders are saying, hey, hey, you know, full immunity. And when I ask the agents how that's received, they say, well, that's, everyone knows that means we're going to have your back if you, if you get in trouble. And that's how it's perceived. And that's, I mean, that has to be what it is intended to be, too.
- [71:32]
Emily Jashinsky
So it doesn't help you from state immunity. I mean, they can say federal immunity as much as they want, and you can, the state of Minnesota can still go after you. J.D. vance doesn't have control over them.
- [71:42]
Ken Klippenstein
Right. And that's why all this is so important, because to the extent that Trump has even moderated, and I mean, obviously there's, you know, fair to criticize the cynicism there, but the law enforcement will hear that and say, oh, look, they're getting a little wobbly. Maybe they, maybe they won't have my back as much as I thought. So, you know, I have a kind of.
- [71:59]
Krystal Ball
And they won't, if the going gets tough, they won't, like, you should understand that Donald Trump is not going to, like, save your ass if it is even slightly inconvenient for him.
- [72:12]
Ken Klippenstein
Totally, totally.
- [72:14]
Krystal Ball
Well, Ken, as always, thank you so much for your reporting and for joining us. To break it down, I think it's, these were incredibly valuable insights.
- [72:23]
Ken Klippenstein
Thank you. And thanks for, thanks for having me again.
- [72:25]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, our pleasure.
- [72:27]
Emily Jashinsky
Anytime. President Trump went to Iowa yesterday as part of what appears to be the Susie Wilds orchestrated economic messaging speaking tour. It was supposed to be squarely focused. The event was supposed to be squarely focused on drawing, drawing attention to what Donald Trump believes is an economy in recovery after the Biden administration. Instead, of course, it was overshadowed by the situation in Minneapolis, just basically from start to finish. And Chris, I watched the speech before we started this morning. It was remarkable how often Trump was pivoting back to Joe Biden and not just on the economy in general. Kind of making fun of Joe Biden being sleepy and crooked. But constantly it reminded me of like somebody who had a great high school football career and now they're 30 and can't stop talking about it. He's constantly going back to high school. But let's take a listen to what Trump said as he talked with reporters on the ground in Iowa. Mr. President, with the current value of the dollar, you think it's declined too much?
- [73:32]
Donald Trump
No, I think it's great. I mean, the value of the dollar. Look at the business we're doing. No, dollars, dollars, doing great. If a Democrat got a half a point down, this is like hundreds of. Depending on the way you want to calculate it. You could say it's an 80% reduction or you could say it's 1000% reduction. You could say whatever you want. But it's the biggest reduction in history by many, many times. I think they're the best poll numbers, the real poll numbers. I think we have the best poll numbers we've ever had. Think of it. If I were to run again, if I run again, would you. Would anybody be happy? So we have the best poll numbers we've ever had. Thank you all very much.
- [74:12]
Emily Jashinsky
Okay, so then Trump stopped by Fox News for an interview on the Will Caine show and was asked about farmers. Here's what he said.
- [74:21]
Donald Trump
And by the way, I just gave the farmers $12 billion because they were treated unfairly. We take it. We're taking in a fortune with tax tariffs. And I wrote him a little check about two weeks ago for 12 billion. Anybody in this room get any of it yet? Yes, a lot of people.
- [74:40]
Krystal Ball
Sure.
- [74:42]
Emily Jashinsky
Meanwhile, Ms. Now did a man on the street in what appears to be a Target parking lot in Iowa. Here's what one woman told them. He needs to get his act together. And our representatives here in Iowa need to stop falling. Following his lead. I'm not voting Republican again.
- [75:01]
Joel
Did you ever vote for him?
- [75:03]
Emily Jashinsky
First time around. And he did a good job, but.
- [75:05]
Ken Klippenstein
Then he got stupid.
- [75:06]
Krystal Ball
What does that mean?
- [75:08]
Emily Jashinsky
Means that he just changed. It's all about him. He thinks he's God. So we can go ahead and I.
- [75:15]
Krystal Ball
Love everything about her.
- [75:18]
Emily Jashinsky
She's making me realize I want to go to Target or I need to go to Target. Now let's go ahead and put the Trump approval rating by state up on the screen. We're going to skip ahead one element here because Trump's approval rating in Iowa is hovering in the low 40s. So this is from USA Today, but kind of across the board. The couple places I looked where they have approval ratings on a state by state basis had him, I think, between 40, around like 44, 43% approval in Iowa. So Trump talked about Crystal. He, he was talking about how he brought John Deere excavator manufacturing to North Carolina. Got some applause for that. He's talking about how now you don't have to be a PhD to repair your tractor anymore. And some lines that are economic populism. And you can see why. At one point he asked the audience who had a 401k, because he was trying to convince, he was trying to convince everyone that he's been, he's been a huge economic boost to the country because the stock market is going up. And he's talking about how he made a lot of people rich who hate him and all of that, but also that normal people, you know. Yes. He literally at that point was like, who has a 401k? But he constantly was saying, this is the Biden administration. We're crawling out of the hole and we're doing such a great job. Then he's also constantly getting diverted into these tangents, the whole thing. I mean, I'm looking at all the headlines this morning. It was really, really overshadow.
- [76:49]
Krystal Ball
Yeah.
- [76:49]
Emily Jashinsky
Even if you, even if you agree with his economic messaging, really overshadowed by Minneapolis.
- [76:56]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, well, and Iowa has been sort of uniquely hurt by the, you know, the Trump tariff schemes. The soybean issue there looms very large. And, you know, the farmers that I've heard interviewed are like, yeah, we don't really want a bailout from the government. We want to be able to sell our crops, like, into a market. That's what we would like. And you have put the last element that we have here actually up on the screen because this indicates, you know, is indicative of where the public opinion is and how Republicans are faring in the state. Iowa, obviously, a very rural state, and you have a Democratic candidate for governor because their governor's race is coming up this year. Who was in, was actually leading the Republican. Now, this was, I think, a Democratic poll. So factor that in, but say they're like, roughly tied. And I know, you know, the people that I've spoken with in the state actually feel like Democrats have a shot there and maybe even an outside shot at an open Senate seat that is, that is, you know, up this time around. Now, I'm not going to, like, put my eggs in that basket. I think it's still unlikely, but, you know, this is a state that Trump won handily, infamously. Ann Seltzer thought it was going the other way. And many people are saying, Emily, maybe she wasn't wrong. Just a early.
- [78:16]
Emily Jashinsky
He still got thousands of people to his, his rally yesterday. And, you know, it's, it's, it's Iowa. It's a friendly place for him overall. But if your approval rating is down in, in the 40s in a place that you've seen I mean, he talks about how much he loves Iowa. It's a place where he's seen a lot of success with economic populism. Those, some of those candidates in Iowa are talking a lot about antitrust, and you started to see a little bit of that from Brooke Rollins and later in the ag space. So. But it seems like they're out on an island, like nobody is, because all the corporate lobbyists who are hounding Maga in Washington, D.C. are picking up fancy new clients who want them to prevent that from happening. And so there's a long way to go if they want to have an economic populism that farmers are ultimately really happy with. Apart from being sort of sated with bailouts, like in Trump 1, they've been giving him a lot of grace and patience because they know that, that they have. They've been trying to get people's attention for years to what's happened with China and trade deficits and the like. So they, it's not as though they're, you know, they, they wanted things to continue as usual. They had reasons for putting their hope in and their eggs in the Trump basket, and they've been very patient with him. But if things keep looking the way that they're looking, that's going to be a much, much harder case for him to make.
- [79:45]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, well, Iowa is an interesting test case as well, because it really does get to the question of material politics. When I say Iowa, it really is one of the states that has suffered the most under Trump's economic policies. I was just looking it up. They're ranked 49th to 50th in terms of economic growth. They're ranked 48th in terms of personal income growth. So, you know, things are not going well there. But because it is a rural, culturally conservative, conservative state, you know, obviously Republicans for, you know, since the Obama era, he was the last one Democrat to win Iowa. Republicans have cleaned up there quite easily. So, you know, like I said, it will be an interesting test case of the importance of material politics. Although the other thing is Democrats obviously have to offer something on that front that also looks measurably superior to what they have got and enough for them to sort of look away from the, you know, the cultural issues where they made decisions. Agree.
- [80:44]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, I think that's a great point. Well, if there's widespread dissatisfaction with, and even just a lack of motivation among Trump voters on the immigration issue come November, because they're demoralized that Kristi Noem hasn't done a good job, you know, even from the perspective of immigration hawks, that can be a problem. Trump was repeatedly trying to. All right, he said the reason that he's like, I love Iowa, but the reason that I'm here is to start spreading this economic message for the midterms. You know, you said they're not here. You're not hearing much about affordability, a new word anymore. But everyone's saying this is an affordability midterm cycle. And then he's laying the groundwork for Republican loss in the midterms. He said, did you know. He spent a lot of time saying, did you know, everybody whose party is in power and the presidency ends up losing those first midterms and so lowering expectations a little bit. But he was literally imploring, imploring the audience to remember, like, the John Deere deal come midterm season, to remember their 401ks come midterm season. Um, so that's, that's where they're going with this. Meanwhile, let's put up this post from Trump on Truth Social. I am hearing that the great country of Iraq might make a very bad choice by reinstalling Nouri Al Maliki as Prime Minister. And he goes on to say, make Iraq great again. This was posted literally on his way to Iowa to make a pitch for his economic agenda. He's posting make Iraq great again. While he is on the plane. Ostensibly from the timeline, he's saying, make Iraq great again.
- [82:22]
Krystal Ball
And then on the way back, or once he got back, he's threatening Iran again and threatening war with Iran again. So hard to get the, the economic message to really break through when, number one, people feel like the economy sucks. And number two, you're constantly, you know, doing these, like, foreign adventures in a variety of new countries. Seems like a new one pops up every, every day.
- [82:46]
Emily Jashinsky
Well, we can put this Washington Post element up on the screen. This was from yesterday as well. Facing US Turmoil, Europe and India announced blockbuster trade deals. So a major free trade negotiation between Europe and India announced yesterday. Yesterday, Crystal. So that question of, you know, Mark Carney's speech in Davos last week about the fiction, the polite fiction of the international rules based order crumbling, where he's trying to, to make overtures to China, we'll see how that pans out. But where he's trying at least to move Canada closer to China amidst all of the threats from the United States, which we were promised by Gavin Newsom, was just a temporary, a temporary disruption. We'll see how temporary it is. But it's dormant. Right is what I think the word that he used. The relationship is dormant. Some of these relationships are dormant. Then you have have Europe and India trying to move closer together, and the realignment is happening in the background here. I think it's unclear what happens at the end of the day if, when Trump leaves office, maybe a Democratic president comes in. It's possible Gavin Newsom is right and these relationships were dormant and there's an effort to kind of rebuild. But meaningful that these relationships are now sprouting up or are closening, deepening during the second Trump administration.
- [84:27]
Krystal Ball
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