Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode Date: January 5, 2026
Episode Title: Trump Threatens Cuba, Mexico And Colombia, Maduro Internal Betrayal

Overview

This episode is a Venezuela-focused special, with Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti offering a deep dive into the U.S. military operation that captured Venezuelan president Nicolás Maduro, the Trump administration's threats toward other Latin American nations, emerging internal power struggles within Venezuela, and the broader geopolitical consequences of these events. The hosts are joined by attorney and Chávez biographer Ava Gollinger to provide critical context and nuanced insight.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Why Venezuela and Why Now?

[02:29–04:23]

• The entire episode centers on recent events in Venezuela: the Delta Force-led capture (described as “kidnapping”) of Nicolás Maduro, public statements from former President Donald Trump about “running Venezuela,” and speculation about U.S. intentions toward neighboring countries, especially Cuba and Colombia.
• There's confusion and disarray among Democrats about their stance and response, and a surge of misleading or outright fake news about the intervention—including AI-generated videos shared by prominent right-wing influencers.

“We're gonna go in deep because obviously this is incredibly significant action and we're going to try to figure out where we are and where things may go from here.”
— Krystal Ball [03:48]

2. Trump’s Rhetoric & Geopolitical Escalation

[06:22–09:19]

• Trump publicly boasts about U.S. capabilities, directly threatens not only Venezuela but Cuba and Colombia as well.
• He frames Cuba as “ready to fall” due to its reliance on Venezuelan oil and singles out Colombia’s president Gustavo Petro for involvement in drug production.
• Trump’s doctrine, as interpreted by the hosts, is to do “whatever we want, wherever we want.”

“We can't take a chance after having done this incredible thing last night of letting somebody else take over…if they're gonna hold out. But Cuba now has no income. They got all of their income from Venezuela…Cuba is ready to fall.”
— Donald Trump [07:53]

“He has cocaine mills…So he does have to watch his ass.”
— Donald Trump, on Gustavo Petro [09:05]

3. The Monroe Doctrine–Era Mentality Returns

[09:19–12:54]

• Hosts explain how the Monroe Doctrine has been distorted from its original form (preventing European intervention in the hemisphere) to justify U.S. interference.
• Trump’s actions are described as a “madman theory” meant to scare Latin American leaders, which paradoxically increases their popularity domestically.

“What has unfortunately kind of been morphed into [the Monroe Doctrine] is just America gets to do whatever it wants...It actually engendered not only a lot of the problems that happened… but a long legacy…”
— Krystal Ball [09:19]

4. Law of the Jungle: Limits & Consequences of U.S. Action

[12:54–16:46]

• Saagar emphasizes U.S. double standards: if the U.S. can abduct foreign leaders, what stops China or Russia from doing the same?
• The action does not guarantee a favorable or stable outcome for the U.S.—the spectacle may embolden adversaries and create unpredictable chaos.

“If you are any country around the world, you should be thinking, I need to get nukes. Because that's basically your only insurance policy against the U.S. doing whatever it wants…”
— Saagar Enjeti [12:54]

“He kind of showed his hand in terms of what he is actually willing to do. So I think that's an important learning to take from this as well.”
— Krystal Ball [16:34]

5. Regime Change or Colonial Experiment?

[16:46–18:49]

• Comparing the operation to U.S. interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan, Krystal points out that swift “decapitation” does not equate to sustainable regime change.
• The situation resembles old British colonial tactics: a show of force to install a compliant local leader, not a real governance solution.
• The viability of Trump's oil ambitions is questioned, as well as the capacity for the U.S. administration to manage post-intervention realities.

“It is very similar…to a British colonial…experiment…where the implicit…admission was that you do what we want, we won't mess too much in your own internal affairs, but if you do…the full force…will come in.”
— Krystal Ball [17:13]

Key Segments & Guest Insights

Secretary of State Marco Rubio: U.S. Policy in Venezuela, Cuba, and Beyond

[20:52–23:13]

• Marco Rubio describes the operation as “a law enforcement function”, avoids describing it as regime change, but leaves all options on the table.
• Admits the only U.S. “boots on the ground” were for Maduro’s capture.
• Asserts Cuba could be next target due to its influence in Venezuela and economic struggles.

“Our military is helping the Coast Guard conduct a law enforcement function…tremendous leverage, incredible crippling leverage…”
— Marco Rubio [21:16]

“I'm not gonna talk to you about what our future steps are gonna be…but I don't think it's any mystery that we are not big fans of the Cuban regime…”
— Marco Rubio [22:36]

U.S. Policy — “International Gangsterism” and Miami Politics

[23:13–26:06]

• Krystal highlights the powerful influence of South Florida exile communities—especially the hardline anti-left Miami bloc—on U.S. policy.
• Saagar calls the administration’s tactics “international gangsterism”: threats, intimidation, and the threat of force rather than occupation are now the mode.
• Rubio and Trump’s public posturing serves both ideological and domestic political goals.

Factional Chaos Within Venezuela

[31:32–33:15]

• Hosts discuss Venezuela’s internal factions—the military, cartel-linked actors, the Rodriguez family, oil oligarchs, and assemblies—all vying for power.
• The new acting president, Delsey Rodriguez, may keep power, but risks ongoing instability.

“The thing is about Venezuela…the reason why they couldn’t actually do the regime change…there are multiple competing factions…multiple competing power centers. Who knows what will happen and whether there will be some internal coup against them.”
— Krystal Ball [32:55]

Deep Dive Interview: Ava Gollinger, Author of The Chavez Code

[40:13–61:23]

Who is Delsey Rodriguez?

[44:24–48:16]

• Delsey Rodriguez, now acting president, is described by Gollinger as a pragmatic technocrat, not from Chavez’s original inner circle but adept at surviving and negotiating with Washington.
• Crucially, she and her brother Jorge have not been sanctioned by the U.S., which may have made her a more palatable figure for Trump administration to deal with.
• Internal power struggles are still likely as she lacks direct control over the military and social movements.

“There can be several things true at the same time…There was some type of negotiation for this outcome…but that doesn't mean that they're welcoming US intervention…They're trying to hold power.”
— Ava Gollinger [42:09]

Was There a Deal? The Risks of “Stability”

[48:16–54:32]

• Gollinger sees the probable outcome as Delsey and her network retaining power and crushing the opposition, with some kind of U.S. economic deal (oil, gold, minerals) forthcoming. True regime change is unlikely.
• The Venezuelan opposition lacks sufficient military or political clout; exile groups and U.S. influencers overstate their influence.
• Saagar and Krystal speculate whether Maduro himself was party to the deal—Gollinger doubts this, saying “I don’t think where he is right now is a place anyone would voluntarily go…”

Legacy and Propaganda

[57:36–61:23]

• Gollinger notes Hugo Chavez predicted this outcome: the U.S. would one day try the “Noriega formula”—indicting a leader as a drug trafficker to facilitate regime decapitation and control of resources.
• Gollinger casts doubt on the drug kingpin allegations but sees the pretext as useful to U.S. interests in Venezuela’s vast resources.
• The tragedy, she emphasizes, is that ordinary Venezuelans will pay the price for this power play.

“It's a very sad and tragic…time though for Venezuelans. Nobody wanted this inside Venezuela, amongst the Venezuelan people, and they're the ones who are going to pay the price.”
— Ava Gollinger [61:19]

Selected Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On U.S. double standards:
  “If you are any country around the world, you should be thinking, I need to get nukes. Because that’s basically your only insurance policy against the US doing whatever the hell the US wants to do...”
  — Saagar Enjeti [12:54]

• On Monroe Doctrine rhetoric:
  “What has unfortunately…been morphed into is just America gets to do whatever it wants…I mean, we actually did try that…it didn’t work out so well…”
  — Krystal Ball [09:19]

• Speculating on U.S. goals:
  “It’s just about the bottom line of ExxonMobil and the bottom lines of the oligarch class…it doesn’t have anything to do with your self interest.”
  — Saagar Enjeti [13:53]

• On Delsey Rodriguez’s rise:
  “They have been playing a long game here…Not to say that they were always sort of working to undermine Maduro, but I think that was the objective in the end, was that Delsey could rise to the presidency...”
  — Ava Gollinger [48:16]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [02:29] — Preview of show, Venezuela deep dive
• [06:22–07:53] — Trump's remarks on Venezuela, Cuba, and Colombia
• [09:19–12:54] — Monroe Doctrine and its distortions, international reactions
• [20:52–23:13] — Secretary of State Rubio's statements on regime change and Cuba
• [40:13–61:23] — Interview with Ava Gollinger: Delsey Rodriguez, Venezuela’s internal dynamics, U.S. motives, and future predictions

Takeaways

• The Venezuela operation marks a return to open, performative shows of force in U.S. foreign policy, with a doctrine resembling “might makes right.”
• Internally, Venezuela remains unstable, power resting on uneasy alliances and a technocratic leader palatable to the U.S. but not necessarily widely supported.
• The outcome is likely to enrich a narrow set of actors (in both countries) while everyday Venezuelans and the region suffer destabilization.
• The episode frames these events as a warning about the long-term blowback of interventionist policies and the risks of believing the promises and propaganda in the immediate afterglow of military success.

Contributors:

• Hosts: Krystal Ball & Saagar Enjeti
• Guest: Ava Gollinger (author of "The Chávez Code")
• Key Figure Quotes: Donald Trump, Marco Rubio

For further context and the latest reactions—including polling data and social media fallout—visit BreakingPoints.com.