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Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
1/6/26: Tim Walz Throws In The Towel, Healthcare Costs Spike, P Diddy And Tupac
01:18:03
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- [00:00]
Michelle Williams
This is an I heart podcast.
- [00:02]
Briahna Joy Gray
Guaranteed human.
- [00:04]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Walley.
- [00:06]
Hari Kondabolu
And I'm Hari Kondabolu.
- [00:07]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
It's a new year, and on the podcast health stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health, which means.
- [00:12]
Hari Kondabolu
Being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.
- [00:29]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:34]
Michelle Williams
Hey everybody, it's Michelle Williams, host of Checking in on the Black Effect Podcast Network. You know, we always say new Year, new me, but real change starts on the inside. It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals. And on my podcast we talk mental health, healing, growth and everything you need to step into your next season whole and empowered. New Year Real you listen to Checking in with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:12]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Are you desperately hoping for change in 2026 but feeling stuck? I'm Dr. Laurie Santos and in a new year series of my show the Happiness Lab, I'm going to look at the science of getting, well, unstuck, unstuck at work, unstuck in your relationships, and even unstuck inside your mind.
- [01:28]
Ryan Grim
I am the absolute worst culprit when it comes to getting into these ruminative loops and just driving myself crazy.
- [01:35]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Listen to the Happiness Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your shows.
- [01:41]
Ryan Grim
Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.
- [01:43]
Briahna Joy Gray
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
- [01:50]
Ryan Grim
This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not ex anywhere else.
- [01:56]
Briahna Joy Gray
So if that is something that's important to you, please go to breaking points.com Become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [02:07]
Ryan Grim
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, once the vice presidential nominee. Actually just over a year ago, of course, was the vice presidential nominee announced yesterday. He is no longer running for a third term as the governor of the Gopher State. He convened a press conference and then reporters were a little bit irked because he didn't take questions. He's saying he is going to take questions today. We'll see. But let's dip into this press conference that Tim Walls. We shouldn't call it a press conference. We should just call it an announcement that Tim Walls had yesterday to make this news clear.
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Tim Walz
2026 is an election year. Election years have a way of ramping up the politics at a time when we simply can't afford more of that in Minnesota. In September, I announced that I would seek a historic third term as Minnesota's governor. And I have every confidence that if I gave it my all, we would win the race. But as I reflect on this moment with my family and my team over the holidays, I came to the conclusion that I can't give a political campaign my all. Every minute that I spend defending my own political interest would be a minute I can't spend defending the people of Minnesota against the criminals who prey on our generosity and the cynics who want to prey on our differences. So I've decided to step out of this race and I'll let others worry about the election while I focus on the work that's in front of me for the next year. Don't want to mince words here. Donald Trump and his allies in Washington and in St. Paul and online want to make our state a colder, meaner place. They want to poison our people against each other by attacking our neighbors. And ultimately, they want to take away much of what makes Minnesota the best place in the country to raise a family. They've already begun trying to withhold funds that were meant to help families afford child care, and they have no intention of stopping there. Make no mistake, we should be concerned about fraud in our state government. We cannot effectively deliver programs and services if we can't earn the public's trust. That's why over the past few years, we've made systemic changes in the way we do business.
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Ryan Grim
Walz has obviously been going back and forth with folks on the right like Nick Shirley. We can put this next element up on the screen. Nick Shirley spread conspiracy theories about Melissa Hortman recently said. Why was she killed after speaking out against illegal migrants? Was she a threat to you and your fraudster, fraudster scheme? This is a pretty popular line.
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Briahna Joy Gray
Trump amplified this this baseless, ugly conspiracy theory, too.
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Ryan Grim
So Walls then responds, My opponents have been celebrating this far right youtuber as a groundbreaking journalist. Here he reveals who he really is, a delusional Conspiracy theorist. And Nick Shirley then responded to the news about Tim Walls. We can put this next post up on the screen. I ended Tim Walls, all caps came out yesterday morning from Nick Shirley. Now, Crystal, you don't really even need to read between the lines of the Wall's statement yesterday to say that clearly he is now carrying the weight of these scandals. And that was, to him, made it untenable this third term. Untenable. He didn't think. He didn't say this, of course, but he didn't think he could definitely succeed in a statewide election at this point. He has always struggled outside of Minneapolis. He loses a lot of the rural counties and places of the Twin Cities. So maybe part of that factored into this as well. He did. I went back and looked. He did tell Axios recently, it was around the summer that he would not run for president in 2028 if he ran for governor again in 2026. So it's possible he is taking some time and is going to think about maybe doing something bigger. I do not know. But it does seem pretty clear that these two things were related.
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Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah, I mean, I was just looking at his approval. It's roughly 50, 50 in Minnesota. But that is a significant fall from where it was previously where he enjoyed high favorability. Governors actually tend to enjoy high favorability, which is kind of interesting. They're not subject to the same, like, extreme national partisanship view. But in any case, though, he was at 50 50, so I think he had a pretty good shot of getting past this and being able to prevail, but, you know, was certainly not a lock. And look, I think Nick Shirley is right. I think he did end Tim Walls. And I find that deeply unfort is the issue of fraud in Minnesota is real. You know, I mean, there have been dozens of prosecutions that happened actually under the Biden administration. I'm sure there is more to be done. I don't think anyone doubts that I'm denying the reality of any of this. But it is also true that Shirley's video was a hatchet job and was completely dishonest. It was not journalism. It was, you know, an attempt at a political propaganda video. And it was an extremely successful one because it got picked up by the entire right wing media apparatus all the way up to the President of the United States and was effectively used as a weapon to take out this politician. And so while I think, like, Democrats in the state of Minnesota are gonna be fine, I mean, Klobuchar's popular in Minnesota. She's probably Gonna run for governor. There's an open Senate seat right now that there's some jockeying for this. But if Klobuchar ends up as governor, that would create another Senate seat that actually may be Tim Walz. The governor is able to appoint the replacement. Might be Tim Walls. I don. It would be Klobuchar if she wants. I'm not sure of that.
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Ryan Grim
Cory Naxio is here, quote, seriously considering a run for Minnesota governor.
- [07:47]
Briahna Joy Gray
But I hate to reward this, like, deeply dishonest hatchet job propaganda video is what I hate about this. I hate that Nick Shirley, who is now out sharing fake videos of Venezuelans celebrating, claiming they're in Venezuela and they're actually in Miami, not taking it down. That's how dishonest he is. He did Zionist propaganda for them, pro genocide propaganda. Got into somehow and it's a propaganda there. That's who he is. And so I think he's right that he ended Tim Walls. And I think it's terrible that he's able to claim that scalp because that will encourage not only him, but the whole ecosystem to rinse and repeat this tactic against other politicians that they don't like.
- [08:31]
Ryan Grim
You know, that's interesting because from my perspective, I think the New York Times. I've seen people on the right trying to take victory laps on Tim Walls. Yeah, that New York Times story that came out in late November, I actually really think is what politically started to make this untenable. I mean, I. I blame Tim Walls for ending Tim Walls because I think there was a total lack of leadership as this massive degree of fraud was metastasizing. And some of it, I think, was genuinely a fear of. I mean, there are people who were engaged in the fraud, people who have been convicted, who were weaponizing identity concerns. And this was during a period like 2020, 2021, 2022, when especially on the left in DFL circles, those types of places, there was, I think we all remember this, like, very intense fear of, especially in a state of Minnesota, which was reeling from George Floyd, of coming down on the wrong side of racial issues. And I think that led to a serious lack of leadership and oversight, and that created lots and lots of fraud. And when the New York Times waded into this finally and nationalized the story in a way that it hadn't quite been. That I think, is when it started to spiral for Tim Walls. I see this as kind of an interesting story along those lines of how damaged people are going to be on the left by those years. 2020ish to 2022. I don't know if that's a kind of impossible. Well, let's say I don't know if it's. It's permanent damage. I think, you know, right now it's. It's possible that, like Gavin Newsom, for example, is already trying to find ways around things from those years. But I don't. I think Tim Walls went from somebody who had this really interesting background. And I remember we covered Tim Walls before he was even vp because the DFL guys were doing this interesting. You know, tactically, they were doing something that I found interesting is the one on the right. Like, I've always found the. The Reagan mantra to politically paint with. He said bold colors, not pale pastels. Basically, like, nobody, if nobody believes that you don't believe what you're doing. Yeah, you're gonna lose politically. And what they were doing in Minnesota was saying, we're leaning fully into all of this cultural progressivism, immigration, trans issues, and we're not gonna be afraid of it. We're not tiptoeing around it. We're telling you that we support working class people and we support these cultural progressive issues. And that's what they were doing. And it was genuinely interesting.
- [10:55]
Briahna Joy Gray
Well, I mean, and Minnesota's national ratings reflect the fact that from a material perspective, that program was very successful. I mean, it's one of the top states in the country for education. It's one of the top states in the country for life expectancy, one of the top states in the country for health outcomes. And on affordability, Minneapolis has been a national model that, like the abundance point to, because they did some genuinely smart reforms there that have really tapered the cost of rents. And in the city, which is like a significant part of the population in Minnesota, and so they have some of the most affordable rents in the country for a significant. A city of a significant size. So to me, the cautionary tale, the cultural piece of this is really just frankly, I mean, the Trump administration is loving to seize on this because they love to paint the picture of black or brown immigrants who are bad and wrong and evil and stealing from the good and righteous Americans. So they love it from this just like, purely ugly, xenophobic, racist direction. The Zionists love it because it's Muslims who are at the center of this. And, you know, Israel did these focus groups saying, like, oh, the best way we can reclaim some ground here is by spreading Islamophobia. So it's not an accident that Nick Shirley, who is a committed Zionist and was doing Propaganda for the Israeli government is also at the forefront of this one as well. And so, you know, I don't like you're making the connection to like the Black Lives Matter. I think that's very, I think that's very tenuous for me. The few, the warnings here are just about the willingness and comfort of the right manufacturing propaganda to serve their ends, which can have some connection to reality, but can also be completely far flung from reality. We have AI videos being shared of Venezuelan celebrating and no one caring whether they're real or fake, et cetera. The willingness of the President of the United States to grab on that and use it. So this is a, you know, I can't say it's a new reality, but I think it's an accelerated reality. I think that's a warning. And then I think the part about fraud is certainly also a warning because the other ideological piece here is like, these programs have been successful and popular, but if you are, you know, ideologically opposed to any sort of social spending, the best way to undercut support for that is to convince people that, like, your money isn't really going to feed kids at school or needy kids or healthcare or whatever admirable thing. It's going to fund these fraudsters. So we gotta cut these programs because you're just being robbed and that money is being shipped to people who are undeserving. So it's a very effective, long practiced way of attacking any sort of social safety net system. So I do think it's important to, you know, to take fraud seriously, to demonstrate to the public that you were taking that seriously. And I think during COVID in particular, because of, you know, the weirdness of that time and the, the discomfort with like, in person contacts and whatever, it created a perfect storm and make it much easier for that sort of fraud to, to flourish in places like Minnesota, but probably in other places as well. California, I know, is doing a big, like, analysis. Ro Khanna has been kind of leading the charge of like, yes, we're going to do this, well, tax, but we also need to make sure that we're serious about tackling fraud for exactly this reason. I do think that's the right lesson to take from it.
- [14:30]
Ryan Grim
It was definitely a perfect storm. One of the, I think questions this raises is, and I don't know if Roe has talked about this, but block grants to states as a method of distributing funds. If you're on the left, actually what you might want to see is more robust administration from the federal government of the way. Some of These funds are dispersed so that you don't have state politics and that kind of dynamic.
- [14:56]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah, the block grant thing is a Republican. That's a Republican deal.
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Ryan Grim
And I was gonna say like that.
- [15:00]
Briahna Joy Gray
Oh, you know, let the states experiment. And, you know, for Mississippi, we can take our block grant and we can just give it to Brett Favre, you know, like, even though it's federal money. Yes.
- [15:09]
Ryan Grim
That's not just from the pool of Minnesota taxpayer money. Right. And so, yeah, I. In the right, what we're already seeing is this idea that the block grants themselves are not well managed. And I'm not an expert in that. And I think a lot of people will spout off. I think I see this actually, especially on the right who just are opposed to the programs and will spout off and talk about how dysfunctional they are just by their nature. So I don't honestly have a strong opinion on what has to be done with those grants, but you can expect that to be on the table going forward. Now, DFL politics, I think, are going to be very, very interesting in Minnesot going forward. We can put the Wall Street Journal piece back up on the screen. This is E5 2000 ICE personnel headed to Minnesota, as the Wall Street Journal says, quote, amid fraud scandal. And Crystal, this is testing Minnesota politics, which were already interesting in some interesting ways. And we were just talking about Klobuchar potentially jumping into the governor's race, which opens up a Senate seat. And there was already jockeying in that in the Senate race in Minnesota. Now with potentially two Senate races and an open governor's race, this is going to be quite an interesting time. And by the way, as this Journal piece is pointing out, escalation of ice, which has become a barometer, which has become a litmus test in some of these primary competitions.
- [16:37]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah, for sure.
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Ryan Grim
Minnesota is a real place to watch right now. Not just because of this. The fraud question.
- [16:43]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah, And I was just taking a look. I know in the op there's already an open Senate seat because I always forget her. Tina Smith. Is that the right Tina?
- [16:53]
Ryan Grim
Yes.
- [16:53]
Briahna Joy Gray
Anyway, Tina.
- [16:55]
Ryan Grim
Tina.
- [16:55]
Briahna Joy Gray
Senator Tina is retiring.
- [16:57]
Ryan Grim
That's it.
- [16:57]
Briahna Joy Gray
There's an open seat. And you have Peggy Flanagan, who we interviewed. I know. Were you there for that interview? It was a Friday show. Oh, yes.
- [17:06]
Ryan Grim
Yes, I was. Yes, I was.
- [17:07]
Briahna Joy Gray
And so she's like. She's like the lefty candidate and she is Tim Wall's lieutenant. And then you have Angie Craig, who is like, you know, corporatist. I think she used to work as like a healthcare Company executive, something like that. Her politics fit with what her previous work history is. And then there's another candidate who I don't think is as serious in the race. I think it's basically between those two. So, you know, now you have. If Klobuchar runs and wins, then you have another Senate seat open up. So. And that one, her replacement would be, as I was saying before, appointed by the governor. Now, I don't know if that would be Tim Walls still, or if it would be the new governor. I'm not really sure. But you could see a scenario where one of these ladies gets the current Senate seat, another one gets the other Senate seat. But this is also the state that Dean Phillips is from. I don't know if he would wanna jump into the running for one of these things too. Another sort of like, you know, corporatist type who did. Was courageous on Biden's age. Have to always give him that, too.
- [18:08]
Ryan Grim
Gotta give him that.
- [18:09]
Briahna Joy Gray
Gotta give him that, too. But, Case, that's kind of what the landscape looks like politically. I mean, the last thing I just have to reflect on is just. I mean, what an incredible fall for Tim Walls. Like, there he was, Brad Summer. He's on the ticket. So much energy.
- [18:23]
Ryan Grim
Remind me.
- [18:24]
Briahna Joy Gray
The thought is basically that my hope for him was that because he had been so aggressive in pushing through this very comprehensive economic agenda in Minnesota, that because Kamala doesn't really have a thing that she would just adopt that, you know, just embrace that. And she didn't. And he was never, you know, so he was never really put out and able to sort of, like, defend that and put that at the center of the campaign. I think, in a sense, she was sort of, like, worried about him upstaging her because I know he's been caricatured at this point, but he was very good in those cable news interviews. Terrible in the debate. But in the cable news interviews and the other appearances, he was very effective. So I think there was some concern about him upstaging her. But in any case, if she wins and he's vice president, then the thought is, okay, Kamala serves her term, she runs for reelection, and then he's up next on a track to be potential presidential candidate for the United States. Or even if he handles himself well in that campaign, then as a potential front runner for 2028. I know you said that you found that thing that he was like, oh, I won't run for president if I run for governor. But, I mean, I don't think that's really on the table for him at this point because his image has been tarnished. And even among Democrats who have affection for him, which many do, myself included, they, I think will look at him and be like, this guy just doesn't have what it takes. I mean, truly, that debate with J.D. vance was really bad alone.
- [19:53]
Ryan Grim
He's not brat.
- [19:53]
Briahna Joy Gray
He's after all this time, the end of the day, oh, no, not Brad.
- [19:59]
Ryan Grim
Oh, I don't ever want to talk about Brad or Brat Summer again.
- [20:02]
Torey Carter
That's the worst.
- [20:02]
Briahna Joy Gray
I'm actually really still a fan of that album. I still listen to it a lot. Well, that didn't get ruined for me. That didn't ruin me.
- [20:09]
Ryan Grim
Really?
- [20:09]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah. I still like it a lot. Yeah, fair enough.
- [20:13]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Walley.
- [20:15]
Hari Kondabolu
And I'm Hari Kondabolu.
- [20:16]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
It's a new year, and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health, which means.
- [20:21]
Hari Kondabolu
Being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed?
- [20:34]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
We talk to experts who share real experiences and insights.
- [20:38]
Briahna Joy Gray
You just really need to find where it is that you can have an.
- [20:41]
Torey Carter
Impact in your own life and just start doing that.
- [20:44]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
We break down the topics you want.
- [20:46]
Hari Kondabolu
To know more about sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health.
- [20:52]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
We talk about all the ways to keep your body and mind inside and out healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection. We just want to connect with each other.
- [21:02]
Hari Kondabolu
Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.
- [21:06]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:12]
Michelle Williams
You know, we always say new year, new me, but real change starts on the inside. It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals. Hey, everybody, it's Michelle Williams, host of Checking in on the Black Effect Podcast Network. And on my podcast, we talk mental health, healing, growth, and everything you need to step into your next season whole and empowered. New Year Real you listen to Checking in with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [21:50]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Are you desperately hoping for change in 2026 but feeling stuck just spinning your wheels in old routines and bad habits? I'm Dr. Laurie Santos, and in a new year series of my show, the Happiness Lab, I'm going to look at the science of getting well, unstuck. Unstuck at work, unstuck in your relationships, and even unstuck inside your mind.
- [22:09]
Ryan Grim
I am the absolute worst culprit when it comes to getting into these ruminative loops and just driving myself crazy.
- [22:16]
Dr. Laurie Santos
We'll look at ways to reignite your sense of purpose, rediscover your values, and get more creative. We'll also explore how to design a life that feels more fulfilling.
- [22:24]
Briahna Joy Gray
It's sort of like the game of life. I don't know if you ever played that game.
- [22:27]
Ryan Grim
Oh, my gosh, yes.
- [22:28]
Briahna Joy Gray
You take the car along and you try and get money, and you try and get degrees, and you try and get to the end where either you have a mansion or a ranch or a shack, and once you get to retirement, you're done.
- [22:38]
Torey Carter
What about the whole path along the way?
- [22:41]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So join me to get unstuck in 2026. Listen to the Happiness Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your shows.
- [22:50]
Briahna Joy Gray
All right, guys. Well, we did want to keep our eye on the affordability crisis and especially as it relates to healthcare, because as you guys are well aware, there was no fix for the whole Obamacare premiums and expiring. That was what the big shutdown was all about. Democrats backed down without achieving any actual material win there. Republicans never were willing to extend those subsidies. Whatever deals they floated never came to fruition. So here we are in 2026. Those premium subsidies have now officially expired. We can put this up on the screen from ABC News. They say ACA subsidies that lower monthly insurance premiums for millions of Americans said to expire about 22 million of the 24 million ACA Marketplace enrollees are currently receiving enhanced premium tax credits to lower their monthly premiums. And many are preparing to see their premium soar in 2026. Republicans said the expansions from the pandemic era went too far. They say it tried to persuade Democrats to fund a temporary spending bill that did not address the expiring ACA subsidies with promises of discussing ways to continue the subsidies later. So as this whole Venezuela show is going on, people are getting bills in the mail, myself included, and looking at the numbers and going, what the hell? And, you know, ABC News interviewed a number of individuals who are seeing their premiums hike, who were saying, I genuinely can't afford this. Like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. One couple said, we do have some savings, so we could probably make it work for this year. But then that's it. You know, then our savings are spent down. And we still have, however, many more years of healthcare premiums that we need to be able to afford, and we're not going to be able to. And in this particular instance, a wife suffers from als, so she has specific healthcare needs. Part of what contributes to expense of this. But it's a really dire situation. And Emily, I remember Trump had come out and was like, I'm gonna announce a plan. And there was supposed to be a press conference like that day. Republicans kind of freaked out because they didn't like what he was gonna offer. And so then we never heard anything more from him about his healthcare plan. I guess we're still in the concepts of a plan phase and the reality is hitting for millions of Americans.
- [25:00]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, I mean, this is an election year. So Republicans have this added pressure now. I mean, one of the points after Zohra Mamdani won in New York City and Republicans got kind of routed down the line, and I should say Mamdani won by a margin that a lot of people did not expect. He. Of course we did. But otherwise people were genuinely surprised by that. And it was this conversation that crops up about how affordability, Trump goes up literally the next day. They have this new word, affordability. It's like how he calls groceries. An old fashioned word. Yeah, affordability, new word, groceries.
- [25:39]
Briahna Joy Gray
Very old, old fashioned.
- [25:39]
Ryan Grim
It's an old fashioned word. Anyway, they, they are thinking to themselves, has Trump spent too much time on the right? They're thinking, has he spent too much time on foreign policy? And that's immediately the conversation in the media after the off year elections looked like a rebuke of Donald Trump. And now you have him doing regime change, talking about rebuilding Venezuela's infrastructure, like as an actual line from his speech about it in an election year. And Republicans are at square one still, where they have been literally since 2010. They've got square one, which is repeal Obamacare. But nobody, now that we are, however many years, 15 years, 16 years into Obamacare, wants to actually repeal Obamacare, full implementation. I guess you could ping it to like 2014, pin it to 2014. So they're more than a decade into Obamacare. Nobody thinks that they can fully repeal Obamacare. And they have no plan. And we have covered this over and over again. There is no consensus healthcare position in the Republican Party. Ryan and I had someone who was seen as the foremost Republican expert on healthcare policy, Brian Blaise, sitting right here. And he has all of these, like, wonky ideas of how Republicans can change the healthcare system. But it's not politically something that they can package together and be like, hey, we fixed healthcare prices. You're gonna see them go down. And that's where the subsidies. Marjorie Taylor Greene said, unless you have this massive fix that's actually gonna bring down healthcare prices, you're asking people to SW of this increase in premium prices. And now she's out of Congress and partially because she was chastised for coming out and talking about health care this way. And Republicans are looking at an election year where they're doing regime changes and people's health care insurance, health care premiums are spiking. So that's a obviously bad combination. Everyone in D.C. knows it's a bad combination. And that's saying something because people in D.C. are pretty dense. Gold.
- [27:35]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yes. Well, I mean, the numbers for the Venezuela operation already are tepid. Right. But I think there's another question that's even more important, which is not even just like, how do you feel about this? But how do you feel about this being the use of the president's time? And, you know, that's part of what Joe Biden suffered from too, is he also had this fixation. I mean, I think a lot of presidents do because it's the area where they can operate as basically like a king. You know, they have the most, the freest hand, especially in the modern era, to apparently just do whatever they want without asking Congress or the American people for anything. So I think a lot of presidents get sort of fixated with. And then Trump, who has these authoritarian instincts very deep inside of him as a CEO, loves that too. And I think it's kind of almost like addicted to it. You know, the ability to just snap his fingers and watch like he described. I watched it like it was a TV show. This special operation going down in Venezuela was incredible. Like, I think that's very intoxicating for him and he has a sort of addiction to it. It also drives the narrative. Now, our whole show yesterday was entirely about Venezuela. This show has mostly been about Venezuela. He gets to take control of the public narrative in a way that he likes. But meanwhile, even voters who might support this, which there are some, is about 30% of the public, it's like, okay, we're good with this. At least where we are right now. A separate question is, okay, but is this what we really want? You spending all your time is on? And I think the overwhelming majority would say no. There's a Wall Street Journal piece that kind of gets to this point. Not exactly like a left wing outlet here. Murdoch publication Trump's Venezuela focus pulls him away from voters economic concerns. And the anecdote they start with here is they say Dylan Mockley voted for Trump in 2024 in hopes of ending wars, reining in government spending, bringing down inflation. Upon hearing the president say the US Would run Venezuela after American forces captured, I would say kidnapped President Nicolas Maduro, the 38 year old sarcastically said, charming. Just what I voted for. Instead of spending more money overseas, Mauchly said he would prefer to see Trump focused on prices in the U.S. he said the pandemic lockdowns and subsequent inflation surge wreaked havoc on his finances. I make the most money I ever made in my life and I feel the brokest I've ever been. He runs a food truck business in rural Idaho. He said he routinely sees customers credit cards declined. He characterized Trump's first year in office as a gigantic disappointment to a monumental degree. And he expects to either vote Libertarian or abstain from voting at all in the midterm elections. So, you know, I don't think he's the only one not to say that he's entirely representative. Many, you know, MAGA base are still with Trump and plan to come out and vote in the midterms and whatever, but I don't think Dylan is like the only guy who's, who's feeling this way, feeling like Trump. Trump promised him one thing and having some hope that his finances personally would get better. And instead the focus is all on these foreign operations.
- [30:34]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, well, I mean, that was again, this is baked into Trumpism. It's not just this opposition to foreign policy that looks like nation building and regime change and imperialism actually for a lot of people, especially people who are kind of right or leaning right, independents who are more likely to vote right. It's not just that. It's also that there's been this hollowing out of the American economy while elites kind of play in the foreign sandbox. And I think for Trump to be so sucked in, I mean, now he talks constantly about all of the wars he claims to have ended. He talks all of the time about that. Like he makes it part of what his message to the American people. And obviously that's not unimportant. Obviously, whether you agree with him about world peace or not, you want to see stability around the world. Everyone wants to see stability around the world for the most part. The average voter wants to see that. But what they care, the difference politically is priorities. So it's not that it's not important, it's that people are saying Trump, you were the guy who said you were gonna stop the adventurism at the sake that was coming at the sake of the average American.
- [31:47]
Briahna Joy Gray
Right?
- [31:47]
Ryan Grim
That was coming at the sacrifice of the average American. And that I think is going to be if the economy. I mean, they're hoping that tax season comes around and the bill kicks in in a way that Americans really start feeling, which did not happen in 2018, by the way, but they have all kinds of manufacturing credits and stuff that they hope is a juice the economy in the next, what, like six months? I mean, now we are in 2026. That's happened. So while we're just talking about the raw politics of it, we're in a total. We're in totally uncharted territory with this tariff regime. On top of that, you have the. I mean, the American economy reeling from this new AI change in the job force. College graduates are looking at record levels of unemployment. Recent college graduates looking at record levels of unemployment. So there's significant structural changes in the economy in 2026 that they're facing down. So a lot foreign policy adventurism just on a political level is going to be a toxic combination at the ballot box.
- [32:53]
Briahna Joy Gray
I think this kind of underscores the point. Let's put F3 up on the screen. This is very. This was very interesting. Axios did this. You can take a look at the search. Interest in these given topics. Starting the year with Palisades Fire. You see a spike there. Greenland Inauguration. Elon Musk. Oh, God. Dei, DC plane crash. RFK Junior. You can see Gaza kind of has these peaks throughout the entire year. Doge Zelensky. Then comes Auto Pen. Then you've got tariffs Again, a spike in the beginning, but ongoing conversation. Signal Gate, Pope Leo, real id that had a lot more than I thought. Golden Dome. Oh, my God. That got a lot of attention. Biden cancer. Kilmar Abrego Garcia again having these various spikes. Ice across the year. But look at leboo. Okay. And then look down at the middle of the screen there. Inflation. The one news item consistently high across the entire year is inflation. Followed by Sydney Sweeney and Laboose. Apparently.
- [33:53]
Ryan Grim
Sydney Sweeney, well, we were on top of that from day one.
- [33:56]
Briahna Joy Gray
Significant interest throughout the year, apparently K Pop Demon Hunters. Also quite a bit of interest in the latter part of the year, so sustained interest there as well. But. Oh, God, six seven is on the list as well. Had some.
- [34:07]
Ryan Grim
How did you say it?
- [34:08]
Briahna Joy Gray
Why did you say it? I'm sorry. You're not sorry anyway. But yeah, if you look at all of those news items. You know, most of them, even something that was massively constant, Charlie Kirk's assassination, It's a spike and then it drops way down. Yeah, most news items are like that. And yet inflation throughout the whole year, you have this high level of sustained interest. And I mean, that kind of tells you everything, doesn't it? Like, all these other things are incredibly significant, but in terms of the public attention, they come and go. But the one thing that is a constant is, am I making it? Am I going? What am I buying at the grocery store? How much is it costing?
- [34:45]
Ryan Grim
Yes.
- [34:46]
Briahna Joy Gray
What is my rent? Am I going to be able to buy a house? Am I going to be able to sell a house? Like, what are the interest rates? That sense of, can I even sustain the life that I'm living right now? That does not go away for people.
- [34:59]
Ryan Grim
No, no, no, no, not at all. And I think this is part of the mistake that the left made for a really long. I mean, we covered this forever talking about some of these kind of decadent, elite priorities. Like Elizabeth Warren, first debate of 2020. Even using the phrase Latinx sounds like a silly little thing, but to your average voter, it's like, what the hell are you talking about?
- [35:18]
Briahna Joy Gray
Grounding in economic populism, girl. What are you doing?
- [35:22]
Ryan Grim
Exactly. Right. But I mean, it was a. It was obviously an odd time.
- [35:26]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah, you had to be there.
- [35:27]
Ryan Grim
You had to be there. But it was. Those types of mistakes actually struck your average voter as like, what are you focused now? Because I can't pay my bills. Jobs are leaving my town. This is met. Like, the entire economy feels off, as the voter in that piece said. He said he's like, I'm making more money in my life than I ever have in my life and I can't pay my bills. Many such cases. And that type of experience when you hear politicians talking about these priorities is infuriating. And so it wasn't just that people disagreed with, like saying Latinx or whatever the. You know, choose your priority, a cultural priority at that time. It wasn't just they disagreed with it. It was actually that they were angry.
- [36:09]
Briahna Joy Gray
That it looked like, like that primary focus.
- [36:13]
Ryan Grim
Yes.
- [36:14]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah. And so even people who maybe were sympathetic to, you know, some of the underlying goals are like, okay, but like, where does the rubber meet the road? And why can't we focus more specifically on those things? So, yeah, you know, I don't think anyone should be surprised that, look, culture war, like, slop is the easiest thing in the world to do. It doesn't require any legislative effort. It doesn't require any build on of new programs. It's very easy for the DHS account to post a Nazi meme that doesn't take anything. And I think it's very common for elites of both parties. But I think this administration really leans very heavily into this because a lot of their cohesive glue and raison d' etre is this, you know, these culture war battles. And then you marry that together with, you know, I mean, the Venezuela thing is partly framed in cultural terms from them as well. And then Trump loves that this is this area of just free reign from him, or at least he takes advantage of it as an area of free reign for him as an executive. And that's where you end up with most of the administration's focus going. While people continue to search for some political party, some political leader that is actually going to deal with what is increasingly like genuine crisis in terms of people being able to make it. People seeing these billionaires with skyrocketing wealth and skyrocketing power that comes along to it with it that are just controlling.
- [37:38]
Ryan Grim
Betting on poly market.
- [37:39]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah, betting on poly market. Building a data center near town that you don't want there, that's spiking your electric bill. These things are becoming less theoretical and much, much, much more real for people.
- [37:50]
Ryan Grim
You know, the culture war stuff, again, like it's important. I think we all agree that some of these issues are genuine. And that was a lesson of 2020 Glenn Youngkin and what I think people should be taking from, for example, winsome Sears, pretty stinging defeat. Not that that was particularly surprising, but she really ran on redoing the culture war and that trying to tons of.
- [38:16]
Briahna Joy Gray
Trans bathroom and sports ads. You're in Virginia.
- [38:19]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, she really ran a heavy culture war campaign trying to reanimate the Youngkin coalition during a different time. We were literally just talking about that in 2020. And Republicans are gonna make a mistake if they think they can coast on the same 2020 politics because Democrats have now half a decade of experience adapting to failures. And you saw that with Mamdani, you saw it with Democrats in the Virginia race, for example. That was a much better campaign than Democrats would have run just a few years ago in Virginia. In fact, then they did run with Terry McAuliffe. And that means that Repub Republicans being in power now as well means that the dynamic is totally different. And so you.
- [39:03]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Walley.
- [39:05]
Hari Kondabolu
And I'm Hari Kundabolu.
- [39:06]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
It's a new year and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health, which means.
- [39:11]
Hari Kondabolu
Being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed?
- [39:24]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight.
- [39:28]
Briahna Joy Gray
You just really need to find where.
- [39:30]
Torey Carter
It is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that.
- [39:34]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
We break down the topics you want.
- [39:36]
Hari Kondabolu
To know more about sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health.
- [39:42]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
We talk about all the ways to keep your body and mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection. We just want to connect with each other.
- [39:51]
Hari Kondabolu
Other health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.
- [39:55]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [40:01]
Michelle Williams
You know, we always say new Year, new me, but real change starts on the inside. It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals. Hey everybody, it's Michelle Williams, host of Checking in on the Black Effect Podcast Network. And on my podcast we talk mental health, healing, growth and everything you need to step into your next season whole and empowered. New Year Real you listen to Checking in with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [40:39]
Dr. Laurie Santos
Are you desperately hoping for change in 2026 but feeling stuck just spinning your wheels in old routines and bad habits? I'm Dr. Laurie Santos, and in a new year series of my show, the Happiness Lab, I'm going to look at the science of getting, well, unstuck, unstuck at work, unstuck in your relationships, and even unstuck inside your mind.
- [40:59]
Ryan Grim
I am the absolute worst culprit when it comes to getting into these ruminative.
- [41:03]
Briahna Joy Gray
Loops and just driving myself crazy.
- [41:05]
Dr. Laurie Santos
We'll look at ways to reignite your sense of purpose, rediscover your values, and get more creative. We'll also explore how to design a life that feels more fulfilling.
- [41:14]
Briahna Joy Gray
It's sort of like the game of life. I don't know if you ever played that game.
- [41:16]
Ryan Grim
Oh my gosh, yes.
- [41:18]
Briahna Joy Gray
You take the car along and you try and get money and you try and get degrees and you try and get to the end where either you have a mansion or a ranch or a shack, and once you get to retirement, you're done.
- [41:27]
Torey Carter
What about the whole path along the way?
- [41:31]
Dr. Laurie Santos
So join me to get unstuck in 2026. Listen to the Happiness Lab on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your show.
- [41:38]
Ryan Grim
You can't just expect backlash to Dem cultural excesses to distract from economic problems when you're in power. It just is not going to work that way. It was the opposite for people like Youngkin who said, and I went back and looked at Youngkin's inaugural speech recently. He was talking actually about how he was connecting the culture war and class. And it's funny coming from someone like Glenn Youngkin, but it was. Was clever. Like it was. It was genuinely clever saying that these ideas were hurting people at the bottom more than they were hurting people at the top. And that is really, really interesting. It's not. If Republicans don't aren't able to make that connection, which is obviously harder to do when you're in charge of the economy.
- [42:22]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah, good luck. There was also something very specific going on at that time period, which is a lot of parents like, non ideologically upset with school closures.
- [42:31]
Dr. Priyanka Walley
Totally.
- [42:32]
Briahna Joy Gray
Which, you know, was understandable also. And so I think it was a very sort of specific moment where he's able to achieve that victory that we've moved on from that moment. And so some of those pieces just aren't there to work with anymore either.
- [42:50]
Ryan Grim
No, but I mean, this is the future of the Republican Party. I remember going out to Loudon in 2020. Something made a. It was 2020 made like a mini documentary, talking to these parents who were organizing themselves in the basement of this barn. And some of them were like old Tea Party hands, but some of them, I remember talking to them, they were like minorities had never been involved in politics. Maybe I'd voted for Obama. And you're looking at this and you're like, this is the Trump era in politics, but it's not anymore. Right. That coalition is fraying. And part of it is because on the margins, which really do matter on the margins, you had people who, again, I was talking to people who voted for Obama and we're organizing for Glenn Youngkin. Like it was just. It was a strange time, to your point. But if Republicans want to keep that coalition into the future, it's not looking good. And it doesn't seem like Trump himself understands or cares much about what that would look like down the road.
- [43:44]
Briahna Joy Gray
Very true. All right, guys, we've got Diddy on the show bar there because I recorded a little while back an interview with Torre about the Diddy Netflix doc.
- [43:55]
Ryan Grim
Yep.
- [43:55]
Briahna Joy Gray
Trey has some spicy takes. He's also in the documentary.
- [43:58]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, I was gonna say he's in it.
- [43:59]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah, he's in the documentary several times as a journalist because, you know, I mean, he's interviewed. He's most famous for that R. Kelly moment. But he's interviewed, you know, everybody he knows, a bunch of the people that are involved. So I really wanted to talk to him about what he thought. And so. And he did some.
- [44:16]
Ryan Grim
I can't wait to watch it.
- [44:17]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah, and he did some digging, you know, some journalistic digging and to some of the anecdotes that are told in the documentary that he's able to, like, pour some cold water on. But in any case, it was really fascinating speaking with him. So have a relatively lengthy interview with him about the Netflix doc. I mean, did you guys get into.
- [44:34]
Ryan Grim
The 50 cent stuff?
- [44:36]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah, a little bit. A little bit. It was more about what do you make of. Was Diddy involved in Biggie's murder? Because that is alleged in the documentary. And Torey's very skeptical of that. Was he involved in two two point murder? Which I think there's more solid evidence for. But Torrey's also somewhat skeptical of that too. So you have to hear his analysis of why he doesn't fully buy the evidence that's proffered there. But there are some other ways that they sort of tell the story that he's like, well, that's not exactly how it happened based on what I spoke with. And in any case, if you haven't watched the documentary, it is interesting. I guess there's spoilers here. Although in this interview, although we all kind of know how this all went down, so it's not really spoilers. But in any case, I recommend you watch. I think you guys will. Will enjoy it, certainly. And I like to like talking to Tori about it.
- [45:27]
Ryan Grim
I can't wait to watch it. So I'll be. I'll be there with everyone else.
- [45:30]
Briahna Joy Gray
Amazing. All right, guys, bro show tomorrow and Saga and I will be back on Thursday and we'll see you then.
- [45:36]
Ryan Grim
See ya.
- [45:39]
Briahna Joy Gray
All right, guys. So I, like many other Americans and probably some people overseas as well, just watched the Netflix Diddy documentary, which was backed by 50 Cent. And after I watched it, I said, there is one person I need to speak with about that, and that is friend and the legendary journalist Tore, who is doing all kinds of interesting things right now, including talking to Nomiki Const about her breakup with Bill de Blasio, but in addition has a YouTube channel called Rap Latte that you guys should definitely Check out. So great to see you, my friend.
- [46:10]
Torey Carter
Nice to see you.
- [46:11]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah. So before we jump in, guys, spoilers. Spoilers. Not that. I mean, is it spoilers when we kind of know some of these things? But anyway, if you're waiting to be surprised about how this documentary unfolds, watch it and come back to that.
- [46:25]
Ryan Grim
This.
- [46:25]
Torey Carter
It's a documentary about history that has been discussed. It's interesting because a lot of this history for. For Gen Xers and older millennials who are into hip hop, this is old history that we have been discussing and arguing about for a very long time. I think for younger millennials and for Zoomers, this may be their first time discussing some of these issues. Especially when you go back to, I believe it was the 1993. 94. It was 92, maybe shooting at Quad Studios. 93. They had not really discussed this. I know for some of them, they had never heard of the CCNY tragedy. So some of this.
- [47:03]
Briahna Joy Gray
So, Tori, I actually did not know about the CCNY tragedy. So, you know, I'm sort of engaging on this as not, like, super, like, in the weeds with all of it just like, existing in America throughout this time period. But there were some, you know, some sort of foundational pieces here that even I didn't actually know about and that they used. So maybe talk a little bit about the CCNY piece because that becomes a kind of bedrock part of how they build out the story of Diddy just being a psychopath in every way.
- [47:37]
Torey Carter
Let's. I mean, let's start with this baseline that Puffy has been a horrible person for a long time. And I believe a lot of the essay and violence charges that are levied against him. He has been known to all of us as a sex addict for a long time. Somebody who does not really care about other people and will roll over other people to get whatever he wants. Typical of what it takes to become a leader in this capitalist society. You know, has been an egomaniac. Has been. I did a video on YouTube. I know why Diddy is broken, and I think there's something broken inside of him that goes back to way back. And actually, let me tell you a story from his childhood that I think sort of sums up some of who he is. He had a paper route as a kid. A lot of us in Gen X had paper routes. The most entrepreneurial kid in the neighborhood had a paper route where he or she would get on their bike before school and throw newspapers into 20 or 30 or 40 people's homes. Right? And sometimes maybe your mom would drive you around and help you do that. But it's always like, you know, the most go getter kid in the neighborhood would have a paper route. Right. So of course young Puff had a paper route. But what happened is that he purchased other kids paper routes. Now that is not super unusual. But then he would have them delivering papers for him, him so. And taking their, some of their money and, and you might say, oh well that's being clever. Okay. But at 12 or 13 he's thinking like a capitalist and manipulating the labor of other kids to enrich himself. And most over 13 year olds are not thinking like that.
- [49:31]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah, it's an instinct for exploitation.
- [49:34]
Torey Carter
It's what that is exactly so mean. You're already starting with that. So by the time you get to CCNY, I believe he was about 20, 21, 22 somewhere in there. He had left Howard University. He was known in New York City as one of the big promoters. I mean like I, when I got to New York City he was already known as like one of the big promoters in party promoters, nightlife promoters. And, and so the CCNY thing at ccny he planned and executed a celebrity pro am basketball game which was kind of an excuse to put on a mini concert inside ccny.
- [50:16]
Briahna Joy Gray
CCNY for people who don't know, at City College of New York, which is up at what like 140th Street? Something like that?
- [50:21]
Torey Carter
Yeah, something like that. Which is a very, let's say, which is a college that a lot of working class folks would go to because it's much more affordable than a lot of other places. And he planned the celebrity basketball game. So all the, all the hip hop artists who were hot of the moment, who were New Yorkers, who he could just get on the phone were going to come. So I think there was six or eight. Heavy D was one of them, I remember. And it was super popular at that time. And they, I think they had, I think it was that they had a capacity of like let's say 2,500 and they sold like 5,000 tickets. So there's clearly like a hustlership an, you know, an exploitation. You know, we're just going to fake it till we make it and like just, just. We'll figure it out on the rules don't apply.
- [51:09]
Briahna Joy Gray
We'll figure it out.
- [51:11]
Torey Carter
You know what I mean? And you know, you can google the specifics, but there was a tramp there, there was a, there was a, a problem, there was a stampede because there were too many people inside and outside the space trying to get in. And. And you had a situation where a lot of people were trying to get out rapidly and people got squished against doors, fire doors that would not open. People got trampled. And about nine people, who were most of them teenagers. I think the oldest was like, 27, 28, but most of them teenagers. About nine people died, you know, which is very tragic. Puff was sued. A lot of people thought, you know, this will be the end of your professional life. He somehow survives that which starts this whole thing of, like, he keeps surviving these crazy moments when would ruin a lot of other people's careers.
- [52:03]
Briahna Joy Gray
Well, and the way that Doc frames it actually isn't just that he survived, but that this is part of what made him famous. That this tragedy that would have ended the career of anyone else is part of what helps to launch him in the public consciousness.
- [52:19]
Torey Carter
I mean, perhaps. I mean, like, he got a lot of name recognition out of that. People who had not heard of Puff Daddy before that heard of him. But, you know, I mean, just setting the record straight, often in this climate right now, after the trial in the doc, sounds like you're defending him. In no way, shape or form am I defending him. And one of my TikTok videos alleges, insinuates that he may have killed his. His w. His. His wife, Kim Porter, the mother of three of his children. So I am never defending Puff, but, you know, the tragedy got some people knowing who he was. But then after that, that. Excuse me. While he was there, he was already an A and R man at Uptown Records. And he launches the career of Mary J. Blige, and he launches the career of Jodeci. And they were massive stars right away. And there's some. There's some significant creative innovations that happened with the rise of Jodecine, especially with Mary. As far as the merging of hip hop and R B, that had not happened before. So this was actually the first time that people were like, okay, the artists are dope, but who's the A and R guy who is styling them, who is really uniquely, like, creating artists that are, like these major cultural figures that are changing the game? So, you know, to. To me, to a lot of us, it's the rise of Jodeci and Mary J. Blige that make it like, wait, who's that guy? And out of the success of those two and creating Biggie while he was at Uptown, and then he gets fired from Uptown because of an interpersonal clash with the leader of Uptown, then he's able to go to Clive Davis and get money to start his own label, which is a bad boy.
- [54:05]
Briahna Joy Gray
So I want to jump into the part that people will be sort of most, I think, fascinated by, which is the documentary's evidence, mostly circumstantial, but evidence that Diddy is directly responsible for the murder of Tupac and sort of low key responsible for the murder of Biggie as well. And they spend a lot of time building up like this is an absolute psychopath. He will do any, literally anything he cares about power and control. Whether it's okay, now that I know that's your girlfriend, I'm gonna steal her. Whether it's, I'm gonna call you into my office on a whim just so you can see me getting my sucked during office hours when I don't even want you, you know, need anything from you. Like I'm going to convince you that you have to give me all of your shares in this business that we co founded. Like that everything is sort of building up to this guy's a total psychopath who's just in it for himself and will do literally anything. And then before I get your analysis, just take people through what is the evidence that is offered that Diddy is directly responsible for the murder of Tupac.
- [55:07]
Torey Carter
So the Tupac story is a lot. It's, it's. There's. So we really gotta go back to. In Atlanta, there's a club conversation fight conflagration between him and Suge and it ends up that one of Suge Knight's friends in his crew gets killed. Suge Knight is the leader, of course of Death Row Records, which is really the beefing with Bad Boy during this time after that, that it's reasonable to expect that Puff was very afraid and that they would try to come back and do something to him or somebody around him. So the notion that he thought that maybe we should do something is there. We gotta remember Puffy is not a street guy. Suge Knight is absolutely a real street guy. He comes from the LA gang war. See, Puff is a suburban guy who becomes more gangster as he's in the music business. But that's not really where he's from. And especially at this point in the early to mid-90s, there are real street people in the industry. There's a conversation in the documentary and in the world of hip hop that Puff hired somebody to get Tupac. Okay, there in the doc, they say that there was a moment where there's four 00:40 gangsters in a room and Puff says to the entire room $1,000,000 if you can get and eliminate Suge and Pac. I find it very difficult to believe that you've basically stood on a stage in front of 40 people and said, hey, I got a billion dollar bounty. I mean, I also think as a leader, you wouldn't do it that way. You would say it to one person. You wouldn't. You wouldn't say it to a whole room full of people.
- [57:18]
Briahna Joy Gray
Like, you're like, hey, guys, it's a zoom call together. Everybody hears your invites.
- [57:23]
Tim Walz
You know what I mean?
- [57:24]
Torey Carter
You know, like, like.
- [57:26]
Briahna Joy Gray
But on the other hand, I mean, they have. In the documentary. I mean, listen, I found it compelling, but I also don't know anything. Right. Well, but they have. In the doc, they have all this testimony from a proffer session from. What's the guy's name, Keefe D, who's.
- [57:41]
Torey Carter
Been saying for years that Puff was supposed to pay him for getting Pac and or Suge. Keefe D did not get paid. That money supposedly was stolen by a gangster who was down with Puff. So he says that he did the thing and was supposed to get paid, but didn't get paid. But let's go back a second. Second.
- [58:02]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah.
- [58:03]
Torey Carter
Orlando Anderson is a Crip who happened to be at the Tyson fight. He had stolen a de. A death row person employee's chain. Death row chain. Earlier. So when they're at the Tyson fight, somebody says to Tupac, there's the guy who stole that guy's death row chain, and Pac and others go beat him up. And then later that night, the Orlando Anderson. We know this. Went back and shot Pac. Orlando Anderson is Keefe D's nephew. Now, I am being asked to believe that Pac initiated a fight which I believe against the one person who was hired to kill Tupac. So he picked the one wrong person who was already looking for their opportunity. And when he. When they beat up Orlando Anderson, Keefe D and others were like, oh, here's our perfect opportunity to go get Pac. And everybody will think that it's retaliation for that. We've already been looking for our opportunity. To me, Occam's razor is you saw a Crip, you beat up a Crip and he came back and shot you. That is extraordinarily believable and extraordinarily reasonable. If you beat up a Crip, he will take a gun and try to shoot you. Right? Or blood, whatever.
- [59:38]
Briahna Joy Gray
What do you know about how Diddy at this time was thinking about Pac? Like, what level of threat he perceived? You know what, what do you think his Headspace at this time would have been.
- [59:49]
Torey Carter
I, I think from talking to people who was around him and who know him, that he was definitely very scared, that there was definitely a fear that these death row guys, we don't know what they're going to do. You know, they could come back us with any level of violence. So there was definitely a genuine fear and a state of like, we need to be, you know, on edge, we need to be on point, because these guys might come back at us in any number of ways. Does that mean that he did this? Is it possible? Maybe, but I just, I just don't think that that's where he was. Did he. This person. This person. This person believable? Did he roofie and drug and thus incapacitate? So he could and essay. Many people totally believe that. But did he order Pac's mer? I just don't buy it. Is it possible? Maybe, but I just don't.
- [60:54]
Briahna Joy Gray
So it's not that you don't think that, like, oh, that would be too far from him. And morally he wouldn't. You just don't feel like the story is logical to you.
- [61:05]
Torey Carter
Morally? Sure, it's possible. Sure. From knowing what I know from talking to people. Puff's not a street guy. So the notion that he, at that point in his life turned to, we're gonna kill this guy Pac. I mean, I also feel like he would have seen that Suge was the real enemy. Suge was the. Would be the one who would say, you go shoot Puff, so you would be trying to shoot Pu. Suge.
- [61:35]
Briahna Joy Gray
Well, but allegedly he was. Was right. Allegedly he was trying to get both Suge and Pac. Right.
- [61:41]
Torey Carter
Yeah. Which is, I mean, like, how did you not. You were right there.
- [61:45]
Briahna Joy Gray
I, I did want to know what did you think of the portrayal of Shug? Because the, the doc kind of portrays him as like, yeah, from the street, rough guy, buddy took care of his artist and Diddy is like, you know, just pure exploitation. And so that's why a bunch of his artists were leaving, et cetera.
- [62:07]
Torey Carter
I mean, correct about Puff as far as exploitation and such. Suge is also a horrible person, you know, from the street. Not necessarily as far as we know, the sex addict and people, but like violence, like, no problem. Like I'm. I mean, like this is a much longer story, but he basically kidnapped me at one point. A very frightening worry.
- [62:35]
Briahna Joy Gray
What.
- [62:36]
Torey Carter
I mean, you know, I mean, if you wanted to, if you. I mean, it's a 20 minute story so I could come back and tell you, but I mean, I Went to interview him, and I asked him a question he did not like. And there was a long. It's about a half hour where I. Where I was not allowed to leave the office, no longer than half where I was not allowed to leave the office when I wanted to, and a solid period of time when there was a young blood standing beside Shug. And I thought he, at any moment, he's gonna say, okay, go beat him up. And then he would, like, destroy me. I, I. So, I mean, there was a. About maybe an hour that I was, like, trapped in his office and, like, wanting to leave in death row. And, like, I'm not able to leave because he's like, you know, you're gonna sit there and, you know, know, he's so. He is a horrible person. He is known to have, you know, dangled people off of balconies and held a gun to people's head to get them to sign a contract that they should not have been signing. And he was kind of known for, like, barging into your office and stealing your pants, right? Like, that happened several. I mean, the first time I wanted to interview him, I called somebody an executive, and they were like, don't. Just don't. Don't do it. Because it just, you know, you don't know what kind of can of worms it could open up. You don't, you know, just, like, don't talk to the gangster. Just don't get his attention's a horrible person who is absolutely exploiting people, who's absolutely beating people up. So the doc definitely makes pedals that, yes, makes Shook look a lot better than, I mean, the Pac story. We could talk about the big story. Did, did, did Puff kill Big or have something to do with. I'm like, guys, now we're really in fantasy land. This was, I don't want to say his best friend, right? Because I think. I don't think he really has best friends. But, like, this was his number one artist by far. This was his number one rainmaker by far.
- [64:34]
Briahna Joy Gray
Well, but that. And that's kind of just to give the. The way the documentary portrays it. I mean, that's actually the motive that they, that they use to portray. Like, that's actually why he wanted him out of the way, because Big was the star. He was sucking up the oxygen. Diddy wanted to be that number one artist, and he was kind of in the way. And so, you know, whereas with Pac, it's like he got these gangsters in a room, was like, I want this guy dead. With Big, it Was like, okay, we know it's very dangerous in la. Big does not want to be there. I'm going to. And let me. Let me just finish with the documentary so then you can tell me what you know about the situation. So Big does not want to be there. They play interview of him talking about how, you know, how sort of nervous and uncomfortable he is. Not only that, not only is he there, does, like, Diddy, like, forces him to go, but then they extend it. Big was supposed to go to some, I don't know, interview in the UK or something like that. And they're like, no, go cancel your flight. You're gonna stay there. We're gonna do this Big party. And then that's when he ends up getting murdered. So it's not like the. The doc doesn't portray it like, oh, Diddy ordered this hit, but basically that he intentionally put his life knowingly at risk, sort of hoping that something like this might happen is the. Is the. The subtext of what the documentary lays out.
- [65:59]
Torey Carter
The. The notion that somebody could just tell Big what to do is laughable.
- [66:05]
Ryan Grim
Bowl.
- [66:08]
Torey Carter
Earlier in the career, Puff had been trying to get Big to stop dealing drugs, right, while they're making the first album. And I can't confirm if it was after the first album came out, but while they're making the first album, he's like, you know, you don't need to do that anymore. And he's like, yeah, whatever, whatever, square. Whatever, nerd. So be controlling him, as far as I know. Because when. When. When that was happening, when Big was in la, he was with partly my friend Chao Coker, who's another legendary hip hop journalist. And Chao was the, I believe, was the last print journalist to interview him. It's very clear that Big was very happy that that trip in la, he was not forced to go to la. He wanted to go to la. He chose to extend his stay in LA because he was having good time. The weed out there is much more potent than the weed in New York City. So, I mean, like, he was like, we're staying here. Like, this is cool. The notion that Puff wanted to have a party on enemy territory, the party where Big got killed was a vibe party, not a Puff party.
- [67:18]
Briahna Joy Gray
Okay.
- [67:18]
Torey Carter
Did he throw a party while they were out there? I'm trying to remember. I. I remember Nas. Tell me about. I think it was a Puff party, but it would have been like in the hills, not, like at a club in the middle of the city. The other thing you referenced, the video, the interview of Big saying, I'm scared. Right with the red shirt where he's laying down. And then right after that, they show March 9th. Here's what happened at the Peterson Auto Museum. So that interview where he's in the red shirt and he's laying down, he's talking to me. That's my interview from the first album. That interview at that point is a year and a half, two years old. So he's talking about the street. He came into the game, he was actually a dealer, and he was afraid that somebody on the street was going to shoot him. So we talked about that a lot. I had interviewed him before that that for the New York Times, and we talked about that a lot. So then when we were doing this video interview, I cued him to talk about that again because I knew that he was very scared. So he's talking. So the. The documentary is very clever in the way that it places this clip from much earlier next to him getting killed. He's not talk. It makes you think. He's talking about, I'm scared this moment. And then Puff makes me go to la and then this shit happens. No, no, no, no, no. He was scared earlier of other people, not the game. His vibe during the battle was like, you know, he's not. I'm not scared. Like, you know, I'm gonna move around. Like, you know, these guys are talking their shit, but, like, I'm not scared of these guys. So, I mean, you know, there's a lot of sort of circumstantial thing of like, Puff pushed la. Puff pushed. Pushed Big into a complicated situation in la. He shouldn't have been there. Made him stay long. I dispute that entire characterization. I feel like Big chose to go to la. He was enjoying himself, he wanted to stay longer. I don't put anything on Puff. Now you could say maybe Puff should have been like, we gotta get out of here. But I don't really think. I don't know that they really thought that somebody would do that. I mean, like, thought somebody might do that. I'm sure they wouldn't have been there there. It was surely dangerous and contentious. And, you know, I know people were. Were talking about him on the radio. I know they went to the mall and people were talking shit. And, like, it was like, you know, it's drama out here. You know, it's. It's loud, there's a lot of noise. But I don't think they really thought somebody's gonna roll up and shoot this guy. I really don't think they. They. I think if they thought that they would have left for sure, but I don't think they really thought that. I don't, I don't. I. I just don't buy that story.
- [70:10]
Briahna Joy Gray
And then after he's murdered and actually this moment culturally has been revisited in the wake of. With Erica Kirk and doing her grief tour and thing and whatever Diddy really capitalizes, I think this is fair to say, on the death of his recording artist, Big and Friend. And, you know, that's when he really ascends to sort of solo superstardom. And he's wearing the white jacket and he's doing the, you know, his whole thing, which again, is like, culturally relevant again. And they also talk about how he was trying to screw over, you know, Big's family in terms of, like, secretly changing the contract provisions. There's also this anecdote, and you can speak to this because you've done some reporting on this, that prior to Big getting murdered, he was supposed to be on the COVID of Rolling Stone. And Diddy freaks out. I was like, absolutely not. That cover is going to be for me. So talk about some of those pieces, because that's the other side of it is like, like, because they're. They're trying to make the case that he intentionally and was in a position to profit and ascend off the death of his friend.
- [71:20]
Torey Carter
He does profit and ascend from that moment, for sure. Um, I completely believe that he changed the contract and thus took millions away from Big's family. And I spoke to somebody who was inside Bad Boy who said, that sounds very likely.
- [71:42]
Briahna Joy Gray
And you find just Kirk Burrows, isn't that his name? Who's the co. Founder of Bad Boy. And he's very central to a lot of the storytelling here. You find him to be compelling and reliable narrative.
- [71:54]
Torey Carter
I know Kirk. I'm watching the doc and many of the things he's saying, I'm like, yes, that's right. Right, yes. You are in a position to know that more than anybody else, especially something like a contract being changed. Kirk would be the one that you would go to, like, is this true or not? There's definitely other things that we could talk about momentarily that Kirk said that I know to not be true, you know, and I'm not. I'm not going to use the L word. I know Kirk. He's telling it from his perspective. I know other things to be true. True. I have at least two sources that say, don't think that Big was forced to pay for his own funeral, like, from inside Bad Boy, that people are like, he would have tried it. And people inside up high would have been like, nah, dude, we cannot, we're not doing that. So I don't think that that happened. Now, I'll give you a Breaking Points exclusive the first time I'm talking about this because I just, just nailed this down 15 minutes ago. I've been trying to nail this down for four days. And finally, just 15 minutes ago, in the doc it says big was supposed to be on the COVID of Rolling Stone to promote his second album, Life After Death. And then after his death, Puff called Rolling Stone and said, I'm taking that cover. Right? You just referenced that. So when Kirk said that, I was like, okay, I was at Rolling Stone for many, many years, right? I'm part of the long term Rolling Stone family. I'm like, that is not how anything goes. No outsider could ever call and say, hey, I'm taking the COVID right? I mean, maybe Bruce Springsteen, because he's super close friends with Jan Wenner, could call and be like, hey, I got an album come out. Can you make room for me on the COVID But not like I am telling you. So I called my old friends to try to figure out what really happened. I nailed down, I spoke to just this morning, morning, the woman who was the photo director at that time, who she just got off the. Or got off email with the person who was the editor in chief at that time and talking about how did Puff come to be on the COVID Biggie was never supposed to be on the COVID period. Rolling Stone at that point in history when Biggie was making Life After Death, would not have put a rapper on the COVID Cover. Jan Wenner at that moment did not think a rapper was big enough to be on the COVID So there is no truth to the idea that Puff took the COVID from BIG in the wake of I'll be missing you becoming this gigantic monster single, the editor in chief of Rolling Stone said we should try to get him on the COVID And because he had this monster single and was willing to take his shirt off for the photograph and was willing to wear Calvin Klein underwear because they were a big advertiser because of all of that monster single, you know, BIG in the news and this amazing photograph with your shirt off and all that, because of all that, they were able to convince Jan Wenner, okay, we'll put Puff on the COVID But this was not motivated by Puff and this was not, not a rejection or an erasure of BIG So that is something that I can definitively say. Kirk Burrows is incorrect there, right and the entire story he's telling there is completely incorrect. And I spoke to the two people who were closest to that decision just.
- [75:30]
Briahna Joy Gray
Today at the very end. You know, because Kirk is an important narrator throughout, which makes a lot of sense narratively because he knew Puff for so long. Like you said, he's in a position to know this. He's co founding Bad Boy Records. He's seeing the ins and outs mounts, getting pushed to the side, like witnessing all this behavior. And then at the end he reveals, you know, his own allegation that he was sexually assaulted by Diddy. You know, talk a little bit about that and because we've talked a lot about like the. The violent allegations here, but you know, they're obviously throughout the documentary and we know now on the public record the, you know, the horrific abuse that he subjected any number of people to.
- [76:14]
Torey Carter
I mean, I did not know that Kirk was gonna say that. I was, you know, obviously moved by that. You know, you feel horrible. And I completely believe him. I believe. Almost. Let me just say I believe.
- [76:30]
Briahna Joy Gray
I feel like that would be a hard thing to. I mean, I feel like that would be a very hard thing to come forward with as well. Like it's not an easy thing to put out in the public.
- [76:38]
Torey Carter
I. I believe Kirk. I believe that Puff was had essayed or any number of men. I spoke through a long time to little Rod about what happened to him. He told me the same story and in more detail than he goes into in the doc. So, yeah, I mean, I believe it. Puff was definitely known to roofie or drug people. So I shouldn't say roofie because he was using something that was much more potent. And multiple people who do not know each other talked about being given a drug and feeling being unwittingly drugged. Right. Generally through a drink that they were. That Puff was conceited. Let's take a drink. Let's take a drink. And then suddenly you are feeling way out of it. And like people are like, like, you know, large chunks of memory gone, like loss of control of my body. I mean, I have men and women both who have said this to me. So I believe it that he, you know, to establish dominance to, you know, to be depraved, you know, that he was incapacitating people. He's drugging people and then taking advantage of them. I completely believe that that happened many, many times. You know, it's. It's shocking that that did not come up in this documentary much more because they. Cuz l Rod and Kirk. I believe somebody else Talk about being essayed, but they don't talk about him drugging people. And he was, I mean, Aubrey.
- [78:16]
Briahna Joy Gray
Aubrey with Dan and Kane.
- [78:18]
Torey Carter
Aubrey o' Day mentioned that. I mean, from what we know Puff and his drugging was, you know, was making. We probably could have shown Bill Cosby some things. Like we're on that level with it, you know, so me and I believe Kirk on that for sure.
- [78:34]
Briahna Joy Gray
I wanted to talk about. On. In your analysis on your rap latte channel, you said that you thought there was a really big missed opportunity in this documentary to dig into the death of Kim Porter.
- [78:46]
Torey Carter
Yeah, I mean, a lot of us find Kim Porter, his. His wife, mother of three of his children. Her death, I believe, at 47, from pneumonia to be like, very strange. You died of pneumonia as like 40 something possible? Sure, it's possible, but it does not sound likely. And there's definitely a lot of people who are like, what's going on there? And I think if the. It seems that the tone of the doc, the undercurrent of the doc was let's make Puff look horrible. What can we say that would make him look horrible? We're going to talk about ccny. We're going to talk about, you know, him maybe killing Pac. We're going to talk about maybe killing Big. Why not talk about him maybe killing Kim? Because that's something that a lot of people believe.
- [79:37]
Briahna Joy Gray
And what would be the motive there? What was going on at that time?
- [79:42]
Torey Carter
I'm not entirely steeped on that. But, you know, there's entirely any number of things that she could have been. It could have been that she wanted to out him on certain things that she was upset about. It could have been that. That, you know, that she. Because she had left him. I mean, like, I, you know, the, the why I can't nail down, but the, the.
- [80:08]
Briahna Joy Gray
I mean, the power piece just that she left, you know, I mean, this is someone who's clearly obsessed with power and dominance. I mean, that alone could be.
- [80:17]
Torey Carter
I mean, you know, it's just that if you wanted to destroy his image, I think you would want to. To go down that. Now, look, you know, 50 is a super troll. You know, that has been his vibe in hip hop from the beginning. I remember a while ago, he had this whole Twitter rant about his dog Oprah. And he was. And so then he was be talking about that bitch Oprah. That bitch Oprah. I'm gonna make that do this. I'm gonna make that do that. And then people be like, you talking about Oprah Winfrey. No, I'm talking about my dog Oprah. But of course he was talking about Oprah Winfrey. Right, with the plausible deniability. This is the trolling 50. His whole career starts with him attacking Ja Rule and trolling Ja Rule, and then he's attacking other people in the game. He attacked Jay Z. I mean, it's all told. His first single was called how to Rob, where he explains how he would rob all the major stars in the industry in concurrent with their image or their. Their hot song, which is actually, it's kind of a funny record. But a lot of people, the industry did not find it funny at all. But he's a. He's a troll, so this fits with who he has been. That puppy is down. We're going to get him while he's down.
- [81:34]
Ryan Grim
Down.
- [81:36]
Briahna Joy Gray
Interesting. And so in terms of. I should say, by the way, for the lawyers, Diddy denies all of this, these are all allegations, etc. Etc. But, you know, in terms of, like, a compelling piece of content, how did you think that they. They did putting this together?
- [81:55]
Torey Carter
I mean, I was riveted through the whole thing. I was definitely, like, like, okay, I believe that. Okay, I don't believe that. That doesn't add up for me. That's compelling that I didn't. There's. There's not much that I didn't know because we've been part of this story for, you know, 30 some years. You know, I mean, I was. I was covering pac's trial that happened during the. That was happening around the quad shooting. So the day after I'm. I saw him wheelchaired into the trial. So, I mean, like, you know, this has been part of our professional life and our conversations for a long time. So, I mean, this isn't new to me, but I mean, like, it's. It's a good piece of work, I guess, as far as documentaries go, finding people like Kirk gives it a lot of credibility, I think, because he's so important to the history of Bad Boy and he knows Puff from so far back. I just know that there's.
- [82:55]
Briahna Joy Gray
There's.
- [82:55]
Torey Carter
There's messiness in it, there's recklessness in it, there's moments that are just not true.
- [83:02]
Briahna Joy Gray
Interesting. Very interesting. Well, I mean, it definitely is very compelling to watch. I think you're right. Kurt comes across. He comes across as very credible, you know, as. As the. The kind of central storyteller here. And, you know, I. No surprise to people that Diddy is an absolute horrible monster. Just given what we've seen. On camera from him with Cassie, if nothing else.
- [83:24]
Torey Carter
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, just absurd, horrible.
- [83:28]
Briahna Joy Gray
All right, Torre, thank you very much. Tell people where they can follow you, find you all that good stuff.
- [83:33]
Torey Carter
Follow me on rap latte. Come to my YouTube channel, Torre Tube and watch my new show that you reference. How why did they break up? Where we talk. Talk to people about a romantic breakup that they went through. It's kind of this wild breakup stories.
- [83:50]
Briahna Joy Gray
Yeah. Also, I mean, you are like absolute TikTok superstar.
- [83:54]
Torey Carter
Thank you.
- [83:54]
Briahna Joy Gray
Incredible.
- [83:55]
Torey Carter
Yeah, it's fun. I love. I love that. I love the TikTok.
- [83:59]
Briahna Joy Gray
See, I. I have been trying to, like, make myself do it and I'll, like, go for a little while and then I sort of fall off because it does require. It requires a lot of focus. And you've. You've really nailed it. You've kind of really gotten into the. The format, the medium.
- [84:14]
Torey Carter
Well, I want to be more on YouTube. Like you. You're like the YouTube star of like. I need to go over there more time. I mean, like, you know, you do it and depth. Tik tok. It can take a couple hours out of your day. You know, I'm like, maybe this time we better spent over there on YouTube. So I'm trying to. Trying to live up to you what you're doing.
- [84:35]
Briahna Joy Gray
All right, well, we'll have to. We'll exchange tips in any case. Taray. Thank you. Appreciate you. Always great to see you for sure. Foreign.
- [84:56]
Michelle Williams
This is an I heart podcast.
- [84:58]
Briahna Joy Gray
Guaranteed human.