1/8/26: Krystal and Saagar Debate Fatal ICE Shooting In Minneapolis

Summary

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Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode: Krystal and Saagar Debate Fatal ICE Shooting In Minneapolis
Date: January 8, 2026

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

In this episode, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti engage in a comprehensive, and at times heated, discussion regarding the fatal shooting of a woman by a presumed ICE agent in Minneapolis—a story that has quickly become national news. They examine the timeline of the incident, dissect the official government narrative versus video evidence, debate use-of-force policies and legal standards, and place the tragedy within broader questions of protest, police accountability, ICE conduct, and American political polarization. The conversation scrutinizes both public official reactions and media narratives, highlighting the challenges of truth and accountability in a deeply divided nation.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. The Shooting Incident: What Happened?

[04:25] – [07:55]

• Krystal lays out the events captured in multiple video angles, showing a maroon vehicle driven by the woman, Renee Goode, who is ultimately shot and killed by a federal agent.
• The woman is seen backing up and maneuvering to leave; an agent is in front of her car, is brushed by the vehicle, and then fires three shots.
• Second and third shots are fired from the side into the driver's window after any immediate threat appears to have passed. Renee’s car subsequently crashes, and no immediate first aid is provided by agents on the scene.
• Onlookers and a physician attempt to help but are prevented by agents. Ambulance access is significantly delayed due to law enforcement vehicles blocking the way.

"You can see that initially the officer is bumped a little bit by the vehicle is what it looks like... shots number two and three are when he's in this position, clearly any sort of danger from the car has passed." — Krystal Ball [06:22]

2. Competing Narratives: Government vs. Video Evidence

[07:56] – [10:50], [21:05] – [22:50], [69:32] – [74:41]

• Official statement brands the woman a "domestic terrorist" attempting to run down officers; video evidence and eyewitnesses contradict this.
• Krystal and Saagar agree that government immediately issued "total and complete bullshit" narratives, including claims that the agent was hospitalized with severe injuries, which evidence contradicts.
• Both hosts highlight that video evidence is crucial for public debate and eventual legal assessment.

"The government immediately came out and called her a domestic terrorist... Any reasonable person can see that she's backing up, she's repositioning her wheels, she's trying to flee." — Krystal Ball [06:52]

"The snow [story] is particularly egregious... How can we really take it seriously when you say this? That's why the video evidence and the testimony and the body camera footage is ultimately what I think matters the most." — Saagar Enjeti [66:17]

3. Legal Analysis: Self-Defense, Use of Force, and Jurisdiction

[10:03] – [13:22]

• Saagar: The jury will consider what the officer “reasonably believed” in the moment; initial contact with a vehicle (even minor) can be seen as a threat in case law.
• Krystal cites legal opinions suggesting first shot might be arguably justified, but follow-ups are not—since the agent was no longer in immediate danger.
• Minnesota law is relatively strict on police use of force, but federal jurisdiction may complicate prosecution.

"You have to justify every single instance of use of deadly force... That was part of what led to the guilty verdict in that [George Floyd] trial." — Krystal Ball [09:10]

"Minnesota state law is actually a bit narrower... but there are some supremacy [issues]... several different legal theories that would say this was different." — Saagar Enjeti [11:19]

4. ICE Conduct and Accountability

[13:39] – [15:21], [49:54] – [53:48]

• Krystal emphasizes: This is the ninth ICE shooting since September, each involving people in vehicles.
• She recounts similar cases (like Miramar Martinez in Chicago) where government narratives unraveled after bodycam footage was released.
• Both hosts discuss the apparent lack of accountability and training among ICE agents, with Krystal branding their actions "state-sanctioned murder" and calling for higher standards for federal agents.

"There is no more chaotic element, no more sort of violent and rogue element in American society. These are like armed state thugs operating like gangsters in city streets." — Krystal Ball [49:57]

"There's potentially some indication that this officer may have violated internal guidelines... I also do think though, and I'm not blaming this woman... fleeing an officer is extremely irresponsible." — Saagar Enjeti [15:15]

5. Debating Protest, Responsibility, and Power Dynamics

[17:21] – [20:21], [27:00] – [35:53]

• Saagar contends that protester behavior—ignoring orders, fleeing—escalates danger, cautioning against fully excusing protester actions.
• Krystal responds that civilians panicked in such situations can make poor decisions, but the burden of professionalism and restraint rests with trained federal agents.
• Both acknowledge the societal split over law enforcement's role and legitimacy.

"Even if you say she shouldn't have flee, she should didn't do the right thing here ... irrelevant to whether or not this man murdered her and could be found guilty." — Krystal Ball [19:11]

"I do think that she certainly did not act correctly, you know, flee. Being an officer, a federal agent who's telling you to get out of your car is extremely irresponsible." — Saagar Enjeti [15:06]

6. Immediate Political Reaction and Polarization

[28:15] – [37:47], [39:52] – [47:00]

• Krystal denounces the instant government and right-wing branding of the victim as a violent "domestic terrorist," arguing it has a chilling effect and normalizes impunity.
• Saagar warns against overconfidence by the left, noting that high-profile cases seldom lead to convictions and immediate cries of "murder" can inflame tensions.
• Both hosts bemoan the breakdown of "shared reality" and increasing extremism on both sides, grappling with what this means for US democracy.

"The message that goes out is that you can literally do anything and we will lie on your behalf. We will cover for you, we will do everything we can to make sure you can get away with it. And that, to me, is what is much, much, much more concerning than a woman trying to flee." — Krystal Ball [28:01]

"The entire idea about the question of immigration kind of comes into this. So that's why I'm bringing it back to, like, was it really responsible to immediately just say, like, oh, yeah, it's absolutely 100 murder?" — Saagar Enjeti [74:20]

7. President Trump's and Other Officials' Responses

[62:33], [69:32] – [70:38]

• Both hosts dissect statements from Kristi Noem, Trisha McLaughlin, and Donald Trump—all claiming that ICE agents were attacked by a domestic terrorist, and that the officer acted heroically to protect lives.
• Krystal vehemently refutes these claims, branding them inventions not supported by video evidence or initial reports.

"The picture she paints there is of, oh, these ICE agents were innocently trying to push their cars out of the snow and this maniac domestic terrorist tries to run them down with her vehicle ... Like this is not remotely, not remotely what happened. It’s not even close." — Krystal Ball [63:35]

"The President of the United States says, my God, he got run over and is in the hospital recovering ... Totally making stuff up." — Krystal Ball [69:32]

8. The Need for Transparent Justice and Systemic Reform

[55:16] – [59:22]; [76:13] – [78:00]

• Krystal and Saagar agree there must be an investigation and potentially an indictment; Krystal insists on higher standards for federal law enforcement and transparency in the justice process.
• Krystal: “I think it is not only appropriate, I think it is the responsible thing to do to set that expectation that he should be indicted, that there should be an open and transparent process, and that it should go through the justice system.”
• Saagar doubts there will be an indictment or a conviction based on previous cases but supports legal procedures moving forward.

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MOMENTS (With Timestamps)

• [06:22] Krystal Ball:
  “Shots number two and three are when he's in this position, clearly any sort of danger from the car has passed... it's just impossible to argue that this was still self-defense.”

• [14:36] Saagar Enjeti:
  “Every... left liberal cause celeb has ended up either not charged or not found guilty at trial... There’s an extraordinary amount of deference in the United States case and that generally goes to police officers.”

• [19:11] Krystal Ball:
  “Her behavior... is irrelevant to the question of whether or not his actions were justified... she's not trying to kill anyone, she's trying to get out of there.”

• [27:55] Krystal Ball:
  “What is more concerning...normalizing ICE being able to shoot to kill when they feel even slightly threatened. To me, that normalization is a much deeper concern...”

• [49:57] Krystal Ball:
  “There is no more chaotic element, no more... violent and rogue element in American society. These are like armed state thugs operating like gangsters in city streets.”

• [62:33] Kristi Noem clip (quoted/paraphrased by Krystal):
  "[Describing the woman as] a maniac domestic terrorist [who] tries to run them down with her vehicle... this is not even close to what happened."

• [69:32] Krystal Ball:
  “But now the President, United States says that, my God, he got run over and is in the hospital recovering. And thank God he's gonna make it. But he's so lucky he escaped with his life. I mean, again, just making stuff up. Totally making stuff up.”

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IMPORTANT SEGMENTS WITH TIMESTAMPS

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |---------------|----------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:25–07:55 | Detailed breakdown of video evidence of the shooting | | 10:03–13:22 | Legal analysis of self-defense and use-of-force standards | | 17:21–20:21 | Debating protester vs agent responsibility; civilian panic | | 27:00–29:33 | Dangers of normalization of ICE violence, government lying | | 39:52–47:00 | Breakdown in shared reality and national political context | | 49:54–53:48 | ICE accountability, higher burdens for agents vs civilians | | 55:16–59:22 | Need for transparent investigation, failure to render aid | | 62:33–65:16 | Dissecting Kristi Noem and other government official statements| | 69:32–74:41 | President Trump’s statement, fabrication vs. evidence | | 76:13–78:00 | Calls for open judicial process, debate over expectations |

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FINAL REFLECTIONS

• Both Krystal and Saagar repeatedly return to the importance of process: the need for a transparent, credible investigation and, if appropriate, prosecution. They sharply criticize political actors for instant, politicized narratives unsupported by facts.
• The episode ends with both expressing pessimism about prospects for a depoliticized justice system or restored “shared reality.”
• Krystal foregrounds the victim, Renee Goode—a mother now leaving behind an orphaned child—and urges listeners not to lose sight of humanity amid the legal and political chaos.
• Saagar, while critical of ICE and supporting a thorough investigation, maintains skepticism about the likelihood or effectiveness of legal consequences in a state and country so polarized.

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For listeners seeking clarity on what happened in Minneapolis and the surrounding debate, this episode provides a thorough, if deeply sobering, exploration of the shooting’s facts, the frayed state of American democracy, and the profound challenges ahead for law, justice, and national unity.

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Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

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[DJ Hester Prynne]

When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on Biggie. You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Because I want to get confident.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

This is DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist. 12 months, 12 areas of your life, money, love, career, confidence. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brad (Brad vs Everyone podcast host)]

The social media trend is landing some gen zers in jail. The progressive media darling whose public meltdown got her fired and the massive tick tock boycott against Target. That actually makes no sense. You won't hear about these online stories in the mainstream media, but you can keep up with them and all the other entertaining and outrageous things happening online in media and in politics with the Brad vs Everyone podcast. Listen to the Brad vs Everyone podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Saagar Enjeti]

If one of us wins, would we all win?

[Krystal Ball]

I'm Ashley Rayfeld, the host of the podcast. Good Luck with that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Good Luck with that is a skateboarding.

[Krystal Ball]

Podcast about the past, present and future of women and gender. Expansive skateboarding. In our show, we'll talk with skaters.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like Bobby Delfino on pushing style, culture and the conversation forward. You break down the door sick now, like hold the door for everyone. I believe in that solely.

[Krystal Ball]

So listen to Good Luck with that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

On iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad, free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com.

[Krystal Ball]

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Breaking Points. Sagar is with us, although remotely he has an entire plague going through his household that I personally did not want him to spread here. And he also, I think, did not want to spread here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So I did not want to spread it. I apologize Even for coming in yesterday. I should have known better. Norovirus plaguing through the Injetti household at the moment. So, yeah, but thank you. I'm doing my best. We're going to stand up here very, very strong. And so happy Thursday, everybody. Can't forget to say that here on the show. What do we have, Crystal?

[Krystal Ball]

We have a lot to get to. So we're going to break down this ICE shot and killed an ice well, we think an ICE agent. We actually don't know what agency they're with, but we'll just go with ICE shot and killed a woman in Minneapolis. Government immediately lied about it. We're going to tell you everything we know. I mean, look, it's very disturbing to me. It may be disturbing to you as well. So trigger warning here at the top. We're gonna show all the videos, all the angles, all of that sort of stuff. We've also got a bunch of updates on Venezuela, including some more indications of what the plans are for the oil. Trita Parsi is gonna join to talk more about the broader geopolitics. Always, of course, a fantastic guest. He's gonna join me here in Studio Trump making some interesting announcements in particular saying that he wants to use an executive order to ban Wall street from buying single family homes. So can he do that? What impact will it have? How will Republicans react? We'll get into all of that. We've also got a bunch of stuff going on in terms of the midterms. And specifically Republican majority is almost nonexistent already. Very possible that they will functionally lose their majority before we even get to the midterm. So a lot of updates there. And then on, I guess the lighter side, we're gonna take a look at CBS News, Tony Dacopol just stinking it up over there and turning it into the most embarrassing state TV propaganda that you could possibly imagine. Genuinely, I think already worse than Fox News. What do you think, Sagar?

[Danny Shapiro]

Oh, what?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Much, much worse. Because at least Fox News is much more honest. They're trying to like, do we, you know, the classic lame both sides ism, which is also clearly one sided. It's, we might also call it the track of Barry Weiss's entire career. So I am very excited and we will share a little bit of information about Tony, which we often joke about privately. But I think it's time to come out into the light. I think people should understand who Mr. Decouple is.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. So, so stay tuned for all of that, but let's go ahead and get started with this ICE shooting in Minneapolis. So you guys know we covered on the show that the Trump administration surged 2,000 ICE agents into Minneapolis, mostly in response to this Nick Shirley, you know, propaganda video about Somali daycares, whatever is. And no sooner did they land on the ground, then of course, they're being met with protest. And they ended up one of these agents shooting and killing a woman who was driving a car. I'm gonna go ahead and put this video up on the screen. We've got it from different angles. Again, this is disturbing, so just be aware. I'm gonna look this way so I can see the bigger TV screen. But in any case, you can see this maroon colored vehicle. This is the vehicle being driven by the woman who is ultimately shot and killed. So she backs up there, and then as she moves forward, that is when this agent shoots her three times from this angle. That angle is significant because it's from the front. And you can see that initially the officer is bumped a little bit by the vehicle is what it looks like in this angle. Now here you can see it slowed down. You have this one person on the side, agent on the side, who has his hand on the vehicle. And then it's the guy in the front who shoots one time and then two, three times. It appears the second two shots go in through the driver's side window. The vehicle then, you know, the driver, we don't know if she was instantly deceased or not, but incapacitated. The vehicle then crashes afterwards. There's, I mean, it's just, you know, unbelievable horror there. And they're apparently not providing any sort of first aid. The agent who shoots this woman leaves, hops in a vehicle and goes. Flees the scene. They're providing her no first aid. There's a doctor, actually that is on the scene and we can show you this in a minute. There's a doctor who's there who says, let me go and let me tend to her. I'm a physician.

[Danny Shapiro]

And.

[Krystal Ball]

And they refuse care. It takes quite a long time for an ambulance to arrive. We're talking 10 or 15 minutes. The ambulance cannot reach the scene because law enforcement vehicles are blocking the way and this woman ends up dead. So let's go ahead and put a two again, which I think is significant as well, because of course what they're arguing is this was self defense from the agent and that she, the government immediately came out and called her a domestic terrorist and said that she was using her vehicle to try to run over this agent. Well, what you can see at the beginning of that A2B is here. She is waving them through, waving through the vehicles of the ICE agents or federal agents, whatever agencies they're from. So not trying to run them down. I think any reasonable person saw her, can see that she's backing up, she's repositioning her wheels, she's trying to flee. Now, you may say that was the wrong action. I will say there's also eyewitnesses who say she was being hit with contradictory directions. You know, stop, get out, go, get out of here. And so, you know, we have to factor that into it as well. But regardless of whether or not she did the right thing in that situation, you know, now you have a woman who is dead, Three shots fired, deadly force used here. And you know, neither of us are lawyers. I talked to Pisco and then, you know, I've been reading other lawyers online who are opining on this and what most of them are saying is like, look, the first shot when he's in front of the car and he gets bumped by the car, that's one thing. Maybe I could get him off for that. Shots number 2 and 3 and put a 3B up on the screen because this is very relevant. So shots number two and three are when he's in this position, clearly any sort of danger from the car has passed, he's alongside of the vehicle, and that those two. It's just impossible to argue that this was still self defense. And you have to justify every single instance of use of deadly force in these instances. This was actually a relevant saga. And this was something that Pisco flagged for me in the Derek Chauvin trial. George Floyd was actually killed just a mile from where this woman was killed. And what they said is, okay, well maybe you could justify the initial hold with the knee on the neck infamously. But once he's dead, how are you still in danger in any way? And that was part of what led to the guilty verdict in that trial. So, you know, that's the sort of legal analysis. All of these things are fed through a political lens as well. The FBI is partnering with the local state police to investigate this killing. You know, I have zero confidence in Cash Patel's FBI in general, but certainly to be sort of nonpartisan and non political here, we don't yet have any sort of indictment. We don't have the agent who killed this woman. We don't have any sort of identity. We don't even know what agency he's with and whether he's still on the job, whether he's still in Minneapolis. We don't know any of that. So in any case, you know, that's sort of where things stand. And what would a jury do with it? How would they view it? You know, neither one of us can say. But I can tell you, if I'm on that jury, I don't think that there's any way I would view the totality of that as acting in self defense when clearly she is trying to flee, she's trying to exit the scene, she's not trying to kill anyone, she's not trying to hurt anyone, she's trying to get out of there.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from. I do think it's very important that that video, which does show contact being made, I mean, that is ultimately going to put play very well to a jury for somebody who's going to reasonably argue that their life is in danger. And I do think it's important, you know, you and I can see wheels turning or some of the initial stuff for intent, but it actually matters more for what the officer reasonably could believe at the time. So for example, he can't see wheels that are being turned from where you and I could perhaps, you know, from the side. This is also somebody, you know, you did say at the beginning. This is also very important if you do listen to the video being told very clearly, you know, to get out of the vehicle and so disobeying order. Look, this is a tragic situation because I don't even want to sound like, you know, like callous or anything. I'm definitely not one of those people who like, oh, you get what you deserve. At the end of the day, you know, this is an American woman on an American street and she's shot and she's killed. And you know, if you were to ask me my personal opinion, it kind of looks like she panicked there a little bit. I do think it is dangerous, you know, ultimately putting people in these types of situations and so. But just generally back, you know, to the, the legal analysis. You know, I think what's important is the reasonable fear of this person at the time. As you said, Minnesota state law is actually a bit narrower than various other different states whenever it comes to law enforcement and use of deadly force. I will say something that is very different about this is not a local pd so there are some supremacy things that could come into play as to whether there's even, you know, jurisdiction to try a federal law enforcement officer. I know it has been done in the past, but there are several different legal theories that which would say this was. It's different, just. But anyway, state homicide.

[Krystal Ball]

Can I speak to that for a second? Because I asked Pisco about this and he said, first of all, you know, Minnesota state law is what would control here. Right. He would be charged with some degree of murder in the state of Minnesota. Now there is a law in place that says federal agents can get them moved from state court to federal court. State law would still control though, and very likely. I mean, they might try to do change of jurisdiction or something, but very likely he would still be tried in Minneapolis at the federal district court there. Which side note, I've actually, that's very important. So it would still be state law, it would still be Minnesota law that's governing, but it would be tried at the federal district court level. Very likely.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I also think what I was reading as well is that, you know, again, we can zoom. There's slow mo. That's not how reality is. The totality of shots fired in a certain window of time is going to be important for the prosecutors and for the jury. If this did end up being charged on multiple shots that are discharged in a short window, let's say 0.4 seconds, what I was reading is very, very different than six to eight shots, let's say, that are fired over a minute with the idea that the ladder shots, you know, when you have a reasonable amount of time to be able to justify. So the page to the reality, to the timing is all that would be important there for a jury. So disobeying order. There is state law, as I understand it, whenever you're refusing an order and then you do flee, then you do immediately become somebody who is fleeing the scene. So that's going to play into it as well.

[Krystal Ball]

That's not any justification, though.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Krystal Ball]

Explicitly, I understand. Yeah. In the use of force guidelines that are in place that operate for these federal law enforcement, you can't shoot a car. That's swing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I understand.

[Krystal Ball]

And in addition, I mean, just rationally, like if you shoot someone who's driving at you, the car is not gonna stop.

[Danny Shapiro]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

It's not even like a rational action in self defense. I also wanted to just note and. Sorry, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off soccer. I did wanna note that this is the ninth ICE shooting since September. And in every single instance it's involved people who are in vehicles. And we covered extensively here the case in Chicago with Miramar Martinez, who, you know, the initial story was very similar. She had a gun, she pulled a Gun. She was threatening us. She was harassing us with her car. Body camera footage comes out and immediately that story started to fall apart. But then once the body camera footage came out, they actually dropped all the charges against her. Meanwhile, they had shot her, I think five to seven times. Unfortunately, she survived. But in any case, you know, this is the latest tragic incident. It's not even the first killing of by an ICE agent of, you know, someone who was in a motor vehicle just in the past several months.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right, I understand. I totally do. I do think though that those things need to come into question. You know, this was a protester who was blocking, you know, federal agents. And also it's not illegal, I guess, but you do also have to keep in mind about disobeying orders. And you know, I would also caution everyone, you should remember that almost every, you know, kind of left liberal cause celeb has ended up either not charged or not found guilty at trial. You know, if I could just rack off the. So that's what I'm saying, you know, judge, jury from video often plays very differently whenever it becomes before grand jury and jury. So we have Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, you know, I'm Daniel Penny, Kyle Rittenhouse. There are multiple. Breonna Taylor, you know, multiple incidents which became kind of protest cause celebs. In fact, I, I'm hard pressed to think of one where there is such a question like there is in this case that didn't actually end up either being not charged and or found not guilty at trial. It's really only in like the George Floyd case or others were genuinely just so explicit and indefensible that you do find somebody. There's an extraordinary amount of deference in the United States case and that generally goes to police officers. And that's why I think this is a tragic, tragic situation. So yes, we can all sit here and claim otherwise. I do not presume, you know, to be in the minds of a Minneapolis state jury or a federal jury, but I definitely would caution people to understand that with their expectations and consider the history that I just laid out. Something that may be very obvious to you is not usually obvious to a jury. And I do think the fact that contact was made ultimately is going to be very, very important. And I think kind of zooming out from that, then we need to ask, you know, and I do think there's also just deep amount of criticism that can be levered here at these ICE agents. There's been a lot of concern you've laid it out before as well, about the 47 days of training, accelerated training. There's potentially some indication that this officer may have violated internal guidelines, which we'll get to here in a little bit. I do also think though, and I'm not blaming this woman, you know, for her death, I do think that she certainly did not act correctly, you know, flee. Being an officer, a federal agent who's telling you to get out of your car is extremely irresponsible. It's just not something which I. Anyone can empathize and understand why somebody who can panic in that situation. But I also do think we should caution people from, you know, look, if you're putting yourself in these types of situations, which we've seen over and over again, I think there is an unfortunate kind of permissiveness where a lot of people who think that they're standing up against any cause, you know, that they think is just where ultimately, you know, they're putting themselves in very, very dangerous situations where things can go awry. I saw some interesting.

[Krystal Ball]

Go ahead. I just, you know, I would like the. The federal agents are supposed to be the trained professionals, right? They're supposed to be de. Escalating, they're supposed to be keeping everyone safe. That's like they're supposed to be trained to do that. Meanwhile, you have a woman who is 37 years old. Her name is Renee Goode. She's the mother, by the way. Now, at least I've seen conflicting reports. She has at least one child. He's now an orphan, cuz his dad is also deceased several years back. In any case, there's such high expectations placed on the civilian protester, we can put a 3B up on the screen where eyewitnesses say that she was being given all these conflicting reports. Let me just read this part. Council said one person, the woman who was shot a short time later, drove her vehicle perpendicular to the lanes of traffic. By that point, the vehicle stuck in the snow had been freed. Some of them were leaving. They just went around her. ICE gave her orders to leave, while at the same time another ICE person said get out of the car and reached for her door handle. Then there was an ICE agent in front of her vehicle. So it was difficult for her to leave as she'd been ordered to do. And this is not the first instance where we've seen this, where. And I think the lack of training comes into play here too, Sagar, where it's like you've got all these guys, they're hyped up, you know, we don't know who they are. We don't know whether new on the job or what their training is or whatever. But you know, we know across the country we've got a bunch of thugs who are out on the streets who have little to, you know, very little training and very basic knowledge of what they're supposed to do. Not from the area. Right. So in neighborhoods that are unfamiliar to them, they're all hyped up, they're all yelling different things. And so she's trying to figure out what to do. She's not the professional. Right. And so even if you say she shouldn't have flee, she should didn't do the right thing here. Look, we can all have those judgments that is irrelevant to whether or not this man murdered her and could be found guilty. That is her behavior is in, in that regard, whether she was doing the right thing or the smart thing or the optimal thing or the ethical thing even is irrelevant to the question of whether or not his actions were justified. Because as we were discussing before a fleeing, like the fact that someone is fleeing unless they just themselves committed a murder, there's like a handful of, you know, very high level crimes where it could be justified, where you think this person could be in imminent danger if they get away, then, you know, you're in a different territory. There's no indication that this woman has any criminal record at all that we know of at this point. In any case, she doesn't fit, you know, doesn't fit that category. So the fact that she's trying to flee, that is not at all a justification for using deadly justification, not at all justification for using deadly force. The thing that I think. Yeah, the thing that I think is most relevant to your point is the fact that, you know, he gets bumped by the car that you can see in one of those angles.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, I mean he is now that, you know, it is a 4,000 pound vehicle, like you know, we can say.

[Krystal Ball]

Bumping, but that's, that does not per se mean that you also are justified in that situation because it is incumbent on you to try to de escalate, try to remove yourself from the situation. And there has to be some other course of action like he's able to step out of the way at the end of the day and we can get into, you can finish your thoughts and then we can get into the government case because this part will 100% agree on. Immediately before the facts are even known, the entire federal government starts completely lying, fabricating absolute nonsense. And they're also claiming that this agent who gets bumped by the car is in the hospital. My God, he's lucky. He's alive and he's recovering. We now know from CNN reporting that when the this actually came directly from the state police officer who arrived on the scene, who asked, is anyone else injured? And they said, no, only the woman, meaning that this guy was totally fine. Now, that doesn't mean that there wasn't contact with the vehicle, but this whole story, there's. Oh, my God, he was so lucky. He escaped with his life and he's in the hospital recovering. Blah, blah, blah, is also total and complete bullshit.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on?

[Danny Shapiro]

Biggie?

[DJ Hester Prynne]

You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Because I want to get confident.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

This is DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist that asks one simple question. Who do you want to be? And what's the song that can take you there? Music changes what you feel, and what you feel changes what you do, right? That moment where a song shifts something inside you, that's where transformation starts. This year, I'm talking to experts across every area of life, like personal finance icon Gene Chatky, New York Times journalist David Gellis, relationship legend Dan Savage, human connection teacher Mark Groves, and the man who shaped my ear more than anyone, Questlove. They'll bring the strategies, I'll pair them with the right records, and we'll teach you how to use the music to make change stick. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danny Shapiro]

Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast Family Secrets.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We were in the car like a Rolling Stone came on and he said, there's a line in there about your mother. And I said, what? What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.

[Krystal Ball]

I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened.

[Danny Shapiro]

These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming 13th season of Family Secrets. Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us. I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships. And ultimately reveal who we truly are. Listen to family secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, everyone, it's Ed Helms and I'm.

[Krystal Ball]

Kal Penn and we are the hosts.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Of earsay, the Audible and I Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am talking to film and TV critic, radio and podcast host and Harry Potter super fan Rhianna Dillon to discuss Audible's full cast adaptation of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. What moments in this audiobook capture the feeling of the magical world best for you or just stood out the most?

[Rhianna Dillon]

I always loved reading about the Quidditch matches and, and I think the audio really gets it because it just plunges you right into the stands. You have the crowd sounds like all around you. It is surround sound, especially if you're listening in headphones.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcast.

[Danny Shapiro]

Foreign.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm not denying that the government, you know, put out like a com. I mean, look, I think that's the worst. That's why I feel this is a genuine tragedy. I think that this is like insane both the way that I think especially, you know, look the way that we just immediately mobilize and blame people for their own death. And that's why I'm not sitting here. And also, even if somebody hears me heard the word justify, you need to understand this. I'm not talking about morals. I'm talking about legal and I'm also talking about in the frame of mind of an officer who is in that moment. So, yes, you're saying fleeing doesn't matter, but, you know, making contact, ultimately a vehicle has been well established as a deadly weapon in multiple well established case law. I do definitely think of de escalation and I do think that that would have been, you know, a better and a more proper way to handle it. Not had to do it, but in terms of get to do it, that's the word that Daryl Cooper use. And I thought that that phrase was interesting. And it definitely is one, though that still matters, ultimately doesn't have any distinguishment legally, but does matter in terms of. In terms of how we can assess the general situation. But, you know, I do kind of return, as you said. I understand. Look, you have deep sympathy with this protester. I do get it. I do think, though, ultimately, you know, we don't generally want to normalize. I mean, you and I have argued about this, remember, in the Past videos where people are just straight up, like, trying to grab people away from federal agents getting arrested. And as I said, literally at the time, this is a very dangerous situation. Normalizing that type of behavior, I think is really dangerous. And unfortunately, I do think there is a lot of liberal protest, you know, permissiveness. You know, you were saying that he's been bumped by the vehicle. You know, I was here during BLM with a single cop car, touched a protester. It was, you know, attempted murder. It was constant. Like, it was.

[Krystal Ball]

Have you seen the number of ICE vehicles that have hit people in the streets?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

Video going around. I am not hitting a woman, and I'm just, you know, her falling down, and I'm just laughing about it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Sure. I'm not an ICE fanboy. I don't think that they act appropriately. I have also seen videos of people also who do definitely either try to ram their cars or drive at ICE agents, which I think is very relevant to the case.

[Krystal Ball]

So. But even in those instances, like, we hear that from the government and then there's no charges pressed, or we hear that from the government, and then they file charges and then they're thrown out or they back away from them, like in the case of Miramar Martinez. So. And what I would say, again, is, who should be held to the higher standard, the random civilian, very upset about what's going on and protesting. And listen, if they commit crimes. Yes. Charge them with those crimes. Let's do it. What is more concerning, though, normalizing like that liberal protest behavior that you don't like, or that I might not like, or normalizing ICE being able to shoot to kill when they feel even slightly threatened. To me, that normalization is a much deeper concern, and especially when you do zoom out and you consider, again, this is the ninth time that ICE has fired at people in their vehicles since just since September. That is an extraordinary high number. We've seen all sorts of insane behavior from the way that they will point guns at people all the time. You know, the number of instances we have at that is wild. And then we know that there, many of them are total newbies, are wildly untrained. You know, the way they've dropped the standards. And then you set these people loose and you have the government telling them that they can do anything, that they can act with total impunity. And in some ways, that's the part that bothers me the most, is like, if we were in a normal time, right. What would happen here is, number one, the normal protocol would be instantly, anytime, you discharge your service weapon, you are sidelined in your job while an investigation occurs. Right. And public officials would wait to say this person in the vehicle is a domestic terrorist. That's what they're saying. Right before even the videos had come out, they said she was a domestic terrorist. They invent all of this stuff. And then you have JD Vance out there tweeting, I wanna send out a message saying, I stand with all of you. I mean, the message that goes out is that you can literally do anything and we will lie on your behalf. We will cover for you, we will do everything we can to make sure you can get away with it. And that, to me, is what is much, much, much more concerning than a woman trying to flee. And by the way, I mean, these people are also massive. They're not identifying themselves. She doesn't even, you know, they're not local cops. For what reason are they trying to detain her? We don't have any indication she actually violated any law or did anything wrong.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, yeah, I don't know. And that's part of why, look, I would like to live in a normal time too. And you're talking there about how the immediate reaction. I do think it's a selective story. I mean, everybody's already said that this is a murder and that needs to be prosecuted immediately. So, yeah, I would like to return to immediate times as well. But we don't. We live in the hyper political. And unfortunately, law enforcement has basically been completely politicized in this way since Trayvon Martin. And normal times, at least in my lifetime. And yeah, I don't think it's a good thing. And that's, again, you know, why I would really caution people is every single time that, you know, people just say, oh, this is murder. There's hands, you know, there's no question or any of this, it usually ends up losing a trial and. Or not getting charged. Now, you know, of course, the excuse to come up with that is systemic racism. But look, I mean, I don't think that multiple small jurisdictions all across the country, including in some of the biggest and most liberal cities, that end up letting these people off is part of that, I think, largely, unfortunately, you know, when we come to snap judgments, which is not immediately other. And again, I'm not even coming to one as well, if I need to. I would want to see body camera footage. I think the relevance of the moments leading up to whether you could see the wheels getting turned from the body camera footage of the agent who ultimately discharged the weapon. Those are the things that are most relevant in this individual case. But, you know, I do think that's honestly a bit selective because you did immediately have the Minneapolis mayor and, or the governor or others, the leader of the Democratic Party, people saying, this is a straight up murder. And it's like, well, you don't know anything. Just like, you know, the government doesn't know anything. And that's. That, that's my frustration always has been with these types of cases. And look, I understand this is unpopular sometimes in the moment to speak like this. And I don't think anybody out there who is just immediately saying, like, you know, I want to say that, too. People were like, oh, she deserved it. I mean, that's, that's like, we don't talk like that about especially people who are in our country, but we can talk rationally with, you know, some small, limited criticism ultimately of somebody who did not act responsibly and who ultimately drove away. And so, yes, there is a higher standard, and there should be, for people who literally get to carry guns in US shoots and kill people justifiably if they want to or if they can prove it. Right. And that's generally how US Case law does operate. And we can absolutely argue about those power dynamics and in terms of just like, more broadly with this case, because I do find it just very troubling, like you said, about the way that we're just immediately domestic terrorists, you know, we don't brand fellow citizens immediately domestic terrorists immediately without any known facts, because in normal times that wouldn't usually happen. And, and I do think it's, look, this is what Trump is ultimately, this is what he does. You know, this is what honestly has kind of been unleashed within, you know, just Jan saying everything is just like, we've done nothing wrong. I do, though, I, I just, I frankly just cannot speak without acknowledging the totality of, like I just said, many other Democratic politicians who don't know probably less than you and I do about this case also immediately are just like, yep, this is murder. And so, you know, to say that it's just explicit politicization or anything just from Trump is just not accurate. And, you know, this is where the. I think that there is so much moral certitude from a lot of the liberal commentariat about what protests are doing that they have encouraged, frankly, this type of behavior.

[Krystal Ball]

Where that is, we can just not the point right now. I mean.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, but it isn't.

[Danny Shapiro]

But it is.

[Krystal Ball]

But why not? Because, okay, why the worst you can say about this woman is that she was panicked and trying to flee. Right. I mean, that's very clearly what it looks like is going on here, right?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, no, the worst you could say is that she was trying to kill him.

[Krystal Ball]

No, you cannot reasonably look at this. I'm not saying that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But that is the worst thing that you could say.

[Krystal Ball]

That is a fiction, though, that would be a lie. Like, the thing that is most tethered to reality that you could say about her is that she was trying to flee. Right. Okay. That's what I think. The worst thing you can say about this officer is that he murdered a woman and he is backed by the state and the President of the United States. Like which one of those things is more concerning an individual civilian woman who fails to do exactly what the police want her to do in that moment, or state sanctioned murder? I mean, like, just in terms of where the upset lies, to me it's no contest. And especially.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right, because I think that's very zoomed in and that kind of ignores the last five years that we've lived through, but it does.

[Krystal Ball]

No, no, no, no, no. It is zoomed in, but it is reflective of the context we live in right now, which is not really about these individual police shootings, which is also horrible. And we can talk about that in separate terms. This is about these specific surging of these untrained agents, masked up, unaccountable, unidentified, operating in rogue, insane ways, tear gassing a baby. Right. Arresting American citizens, racially, profiling, routinely firing weapons, now at this point, routinely, and then lying about it brazenly, even when we have the video, even when we have the body camera evidence. Like that is the broader picture that I'm concerned about. And so, look, in any law enforcement agency, the best thing you can say is, look, there's always gonna be a few bad apples. And that used to always be the line, right? Like, yes, this was horrible, but there's a few bad apples. We have to look at this, you know, systematically. And the fact that this is just immediately justified, the murder of the killing of an American citizen is just immediately justified by and lied about by. And the person who was killed also immediately lied about by Kristi daum by Trisha McLaughlin, and then by the President of the United States. That, to me, is really the most concerning thing here. Much higher level concern over that versus whether every individual protester is acting in exactly the right and appropriate manner.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, look, I'm not denying the power dynamic. I do think, though, that there is a lot of ignoring, frankly, of exactly what I just talked about and these types of tactics and behavior which did happen over the last. I mean, honestly, not Even the last five years, over the last 10 years, which is a large reason, in my opinion, how we even got here, that doesn't absolve the government of its behavior. But I do think it's, you know, a little bit selective and does ignore that, that context. And also why the politicization from many of the right, whenever it comes to law enforcement is the way that it is. And, you know, look, I think that, you know, all I can do is kind of look at this through the lens of both, like, experience in politics and also in terms of. Yeah, I guess also in terms of how the current government has operated. And I'm not even deny I'm in total agreement that the way that Kristi Noem or Trisha McLachlan, and we've covered these over and over again, like, you can't take any of these people's word to the bank. I would notice. How long have you not been speaking? Like, 20 minutes. And we haven't put the government's version up here because I don't, I don't think it's very trustworthy. And I think that the video kind of speaks for itself. And ultimately, that's all that really will matter at trial, is not what Trisha McLachlan, Kirsty Noem, and I don't think that you should immediately be branding people domestic terrorists. I only, I guess, trying to represent. I guess, I guess what I'm trying to represent is a bigger picture of how we got here. Because. And not just that, but you know, what I, What I fear the most, and I think you do, too, is more of these types of incidents. And I also think that when you look at the way that the governor and the mayor and the president have now all reacted, I can't help but see it continuing to go down that route. I wish we could just kind of stand athwart it and yell, stop. But I, I don't see a. I mean, see a way out.

[Krystal Ball]

That's what I mean. That is what is really depressing to me is that, you know, you and I have talked before about these people who always jump online, civil war is coming, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, that's fucking ridiculous. Like, you watch too many movies. This is absurd. But I have to tell you, I mean, I look at this whole chain of events, right, which really starts with Nick Shirley's, like, slobaganda video, which the Trump administration takes and runs with not in any sort of serious. Hey, let's see, is there fraud? Does this actually point to anything real? No, we're gonna do this massive show of force, right? So it starts with a fabrication and a piece of propaganda and then you end up here, where immediately you have almost the entire. Right. Branding this protester domestic terrorists and saying, you know, fuck her, she deserved it. And you have, you know, the, the government like, like pushing out a totally fabricated version of events. And I'm just looking at this and going like, we do not live in the same reality. Like, well, they, they're. The post truth environment has truly set it. And I've already seen like AI videos of this woman and this officer that are being spread around. And so you don't have a shared understanding of reality. And then you don't even have a shared understanding of what the nation even is. You've got the Stephen Miller version that some like blood and soil ethno nationalist project where they want to deport 100 million people, which would include every non white American in the country, not to mention the undocumented immigrants, of course. And I don't know, I mean, I do get very. It makes me feel very dark about how, how we continue to make this thing work as a nation when we don't have a shared understanding of reality and we don't even have like a shared grounding in what the nation even actually is.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I don't disagree per se, but I mean, I do think, look, we haven't gotten a chance to weigh in on the Shirley thing. Look, I mean, it's pretty obvious. Like, you know, surely he's not going to be winning a Pulitzer Prize anytime soon. I do think, you know, just dismissing it outright as slopaganda or whatever, it kind of belies the point as to why it went really viral in the first place. And the governor ultimately did resign. I mean, at the end of the day, to not to run. Yeah, okay, not running for reelection is pretty seismic. When you were the sitting vice presidential candidate, not only what, a year ago almost.

[Krystal Ball]

Can you say definitively that Nick Shirley identified a single instance of legitimate fraud?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, no, because that's the point.

[Krystal Ball]

But I mean, that tells you it's propaganda, right?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, okay, but. But this. Look again, I don't want to come across a Nick Shirley defender. Like, I'm not putting out anything under that guys over here at breaking points, because we ask for comment and we don't show up at daycares and ask to look at children. Okay, that is not the point. That has actually been. In fact, you know, as a parent of a young child, I would definitely hope that if my child was at daycare, that nobody is being like, oh, yeah, here you go. Yeah, you can go and take a video. All right. Now, I understand, though, that that's, you know, that those journalistic standards, let's say, were shoddy. I do think it blew up, though, and also is tethered to reality enough to where the governor of Minnesota is not going to seek reelection and actually is acknowledged inside of the state as a titanic fraud. And so, frankly, like, even that framing of it is kind of ignores, like, a genuine problem of serious fraud in the Somali immigrant community in the state of Minneapolis. I understand that that's very inconvenient. But ultimately, again, like, this seems like we're not talking in a Trump universe where actually they almost very nearly won the state of Minnesota.

[Krystal Ball]

Sagar, I'm not denying. I mean, again, what, 78 people were prosecuted under the Biden administration, and this whole thing came to the forefront, again because of a New York Times article. Okay. I'm not denying that there's been fraud in the Somali community in Minneapolis. My specific claim is that the Nick Shirley video was propaganda, and I think that is undeniable. You can't even assert with confidence that a single instance that he identified and claimed was fraud was actually fraud. And not to, of course, to even credit that this administration cares about fraud when they pardon a new fraudster every other day and are themselves committing mass fraud is utterly preposterous. But this gets to my point about, like, I don't know how you. I just am. I just feel very dark about how we persist as a country when there is not a shared understanding of reality. There's not a shared sense of facts. The president will just completely invent reality, and the vast, like, 97% of his base will just accept it, however he spins it. And then, as I said before, when. I mean, the thing that has to glue a nation together, and you're much more of a nationalist than I am, so I think you probably speak to this better than me. But there has to be some shared understanding of what it is we're doing here that has crumbled like, that does not exist anymore. And, you know, in any of the aspirational stories that we used to tell ourselves about America, which were never accurate, but at least had an ideal, like, those are just tossed out the window now. Now it's just, no, we have all the guns, so we're gonna come and take your Shit, like, I don't know, you put all this together and it seems pretty dark.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on?

[Danny Shapiro]

Biggie.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Cause I wanna get confident.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

This is DJ Hester Prynne's Music Is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist that asks one simple question. Who do you want to be? And what's the song that can take you there? Music changes what you feel, and what you feel changes what you do, Right that moment where a song shifts something inside you, that's where transformation starts. This year, I'm talking to experts across every area of life, like personal finance icon Gene Chatky, New York Times journalist David Gellis, relationship legend Dan Savage, human connection teacher Mark Groves, and the man who shaped my ear more than anyone, Questlove. They'll bring the strategies. I'll pair them with the right records, and we'll teach you how to use the music to make change stick. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danny Shapiro]

Hi, I'm Dani Shapiro, host of the hit podcast Family Secrets.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We were in the car like a.

[Krystal Ball]

Rolling stone came on and he said.

[Saagar Enjeti]

There'S a line in there. Your mother. And I said, what? What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.

[Krystal Ball]

I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened.

[Danny Shapiro]

These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming 13th season of Family Secrets. Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us. I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are. Listen to Family secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, everyone, it's Ed Helms, and I'm.

[Krystal Ball]

Kal Penn, and we are the hosts.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Of earsay, the Audible and I audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am talking to film and TV critic, radio and podcast host and Harry Potter super fan Rhianna Dillon to discuss Audible's full cast adaptation of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. What moments in this Audiobook capture the feeling of the magical world. Best for you or just stood out the most.

[Rhianna Dillon]

I always loved reading about the Quidditch matches and I think the audio really gets it because it just plunges you right into the stands. You have the crowd sounds like all around you. It is surround sound, especially if you're listening in headphones.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audio Book Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

I do want to get to. You know what? I do want to get to a couple other aspects of this.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Just so we can tell the whole story.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Sure, yeah, go ahead, look. Because I understand. Yeah, I understand where you're coming from. Shared reality, etc. Also, we do have irreconcilable differences. And not. Not you and I per se. Although I guess, you know, I per se too in terms of politics. But what we have irreconcilable difference.

[Krystal Ball]

You and I could probably work it out. We can probably do an accommodation.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm gonna guess America. Like we do have irreconcilable differences. Like you were talking there. I'm a nationalist. I mean, that's why, like, it's not just the fraud thing. I'm like, I think it's crazy that there are tens of millions of people here who literally don't speak English. Like, I think that's nuts. And that's why, you know, you, you and much of the liberal left at this point views deportation for anybody who's not a convicted felon as like a tragedy. And I just simply don't. I accept deep. I fundamentally accept that some level of law enforcement, deportation and or English language proficiency is deeply necessary to being able to have some sort of shared civic understanding. I do not accept, you know, for example, that, you know, in the same way of like few bad apples that we could look at with law enforcement. I would look at the immigrant fraud in Minneapolis as a systemic, genuine problem, which is decades long permissiveness here not only of the US welfare state, but also of the general project of assimilation itself being abandoned in my opinion at this point. And ultimately we resolve that through elections. And that is part of why, you know, I do get upset. Kind of bringing back to the liberal kind of protests is in some ways, you know, in the same ways that like January 6th was like. It's not anti democratic in the nature of like, because we don't like the outcome. There does seem to be a general sense of even though we lost an election and even in the state of Minneapolis, we Haven't played the clip yet. You know, you have the mayor of the city being like, get the fuck out of Minneapolis. I mean, I just look at that. Maybe it plays. Well, I'm not a Minneapolis resident. You guys can elect all of that whoever you want. But it's like this is like a neo confederate idea that cities. I mean, I saw Zoran Mamdani yesterday be like, we are proud as a sanctuary city. We will continue to enforce it. Like again, to me, I think that's insane. Like, we have a supremacy here of the United States Constitution. Federal law is the law of the land. You don't just simply get to legalize whoever you want and or decide whether federal law enforcement is able to be present, you know, in your community. That's like, I mean, then secede and become Singapore in a city state. Like, that's not how it works. And so that's just one of those kind of things where these differences aside, like, they do have to be answered. Like, I think that immigration has always been probably for the last decade, this singular kind of cleavage of our time. How to resolve that. And then, you know, look, I think all of your criticism, I largely agree with most of your criticisms, for example, of ice, but I think that the difference, and also why a lot of people are willing to give a pretty extraordinary amount of deference is because they want the question as. The question as is posed now for over a decade, to be at the very least, either solved or. And. Or dealt with in a way that hasn't simply happened before. I am watching, you know, abolish ice, basically take over much of the liberal movement. I mean, I guess I get it, you know, from everybody's perspective, because you don't really believe in enforcement, you know, in the first place.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, but I don't think that's. I don't think that's true that we don't believe in any enforcement. I can speak for myself, I can't speak for everybody who would support abolishing ice. I think they look at this agency and, you know, I mean, you're the first to talk about like order and not chaos. And there is no more chaotic element, no more sort of violent and rogue element in American society. These are like armed state thugs operating like gangsters in city streets. So I think it's entirely legitimate for Mayor Frey to be like, get the fuck out. Because, you know, I mean, they are creating, they are creating crime and violence in American communities.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, I think that ignores the chaos. I don't think there's any Millions of people present illegally in the country.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't think there's any difference. But Sagar, the other piece that you said that really bothers me is you're like, well, we won the election. So that just means people can't say like, okay, we oppose, we don't support this.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You can't impede federal law enforcement.

[Krystal Ball]

You can't go out and protest. I mean, that's an incredibly anti democratic view, basically, like, we won. So you have to shut up and take it. Even when we're talking about mass thugs shooting people on American streets. And I'm gonna be more upset about the protester who didn't do exactly the right thing than an American citizen being killed by somebody. We are funding taxpayer funded, unidentified masked up thug. We still don't even know who this person is or what agency they're even with. So that, to me, is a wildly undemocratic view. And it's also not reflective of how people feel about these operations. This is not popular, what Trump is doing. Support for immigration has never been higher. Literally. If you look at the Gallup charts of believing immigration is more of a benefit than a harm, those numbers are off the charts. Trump has plummeted on his handling of immigration. People like what he's done at the border. They do not like this stuff because to your point about, you know, you normally focus a lot on like order and not chaos. Like this is creating chaos and people can see it, it's creating lawlessness, it's stoking conflict. And yes, I do put more of a burden on the state to de escalate and be professional and be responsible because these are the people that are supposed to be professionals, we're paying with our taxpayer dollars than I do with, you know, random protesters who, by the way, are being, you know, tear gassed and assaulted by ICE and CBP and these other agencies on a routine basis. So I think a lot of, you know, myself, I can certainly speak for myself and I think there are a lot of people who feel this way too, is like, okay, if we're going to call for accountability for criminals in general, like, where is the accountability for these rogue agents who just feel are given absolute impunity to do anything? I mean, you talk about, okay, he got hit with the car as she's pulling away. The number of people who've been hit by ICE agents, either themselves, their physical body or their vehicles, are they all justified in going and shooting ice? I don't know. I'm not okay with that. I don't think you'd be okay with that as well. But that's the other context is like this sense that they can just do literally anything with no accountability, no impunity. I think it's incredibly important that. Listen, I don't know what a jury will do in a trial or whatever. He should have his day in court. He should be indicted here. We should have it out. He should be able to offer his version of the story and argue this with self defense and prosecutors should be able to argue on the other side on behalf of Renee Goode and jury can assess it. We should let this play out through the justice system because to allow this to happen and not even go through that process, to me would be. It would be horrifying. It would be, well, the first step. It would be outrageous.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And a grand jury, which again, I'll remind everybody again, in the vast majority of these liberal cause celebs never even make it past grand jury, which I do think is important to underscore to a lot of people. Yeah. And I just want to clarify, like I didn't say people can't protest. I've never said that. I think they can. I do think, and I think you would even acknowledge that there is a general like liberal position of they can do whatever they want if longer they're protesting the right thing. Blocking traffic, taking over cities, burning down, you know, causing the most property damage, let's say in modern American history. All of this is waved away. Rioting, looting, 26 people murdered. Not that it got any justice, let's say, and, or an explosion in the murder and violent crime across the entire nation. Like these were also the reality that many of us kind of lived through over the last five, six years, which, you know, ignores. I think, you know, you're. Yes. You're talking about chaos. That was also deeply chaotic. Apologize.

[Krystal Ball]

We have to deal with the present moment. Soccer, I mean. No, but first of all, I think.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The present moment is a reaction to that.

[Krystal Ball]

I think people who commit crimes in the context of a protest, I think they should be prosecuted. Right. I think that should happen.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But that was not a popular position during 2020.

[Krystal Ball]

I have zero problem saying that. Let's deal with the present moment. Who is creating the crime? Who is creating the chaos? Who is committing more crimes? Right. The protesters which have been overwhelmed. I mean, I can't have any of them been violent. I mean, I haven't seen any. We don't have any.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I don't think there's been violence.

[Krystal Ball]

Then why haven't they been prosecuted? You don't think this administration would be happy to prosecute any instance that they could possibly point to? They've been overwhelmingly nonviolent. And so in the present moment, like, who are the ones that are causing the problems in American cities? Right. It's not the people who are concerned about it, overwhelmingly. It is these rogue agents operating with impunity, coming from the very top. Which is why, again, I think it is so important that there is an investigation and an indictment here, and the justice process can play out. And there's no guarantees for how that's gonna go. There's no doubt about it. Police get away with a hell of a lot in this country. You are absolutely right about that. I do think, though, that in terms of the jury mentality, I think there is a lot less sympathy for ICE agents in American communities than there are local police officers. I think it's a very different mental landscape for Americans when they are considering this case. And when you talk about a jury of your peers, that ultimately will matter potentially.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, if it even gets. Again, that presumes it goes past the grand jury, which I'm not so sure, actually. Especially if this goes federal and it's something. Or they're successfully able to argue that it's federal. I'm not sure that this case ever actually makes it to trial. Yeah, I mean, look, we've talked this quite a bit through. I don't think there's much else to say. Do you have anything else that you want to get to there? We move to Venezuela.

[Krystal Ball]

There are a few things. I mean, first of all, I just want to put her, you know, this image up on the screen. A4 of Renee good. Her mother says she's an amazing human being. She was living in Minneapolis with her partner, just blocks from where she was shot. She was a mother, you know, had a young child who's now without parents. I think this part is important. If we could play A five, because one thing is, okay, the initial killing, and then after that, there is no. There is no first aid that's applied that we can see, at least. And there's a physician who is there who said, let me go help her. And they block him and point their weapons at him. This is A five. Let's go ahead and take a look at that checkup pole.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, back up now. I'm a physician.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't care.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Understand? We got ems and. I get it.

[Krystal Ball]

Just give us a second.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We have medics on scene.

[Ed Helms]

We have our own medics.

[Krystal Ball]

Where are they? Medics.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Where are they.

[Krystal Ball]

So he says I'm a physician. They say we don't care. And they're saying, oh, we have our own medics on the scene. There's no evidence of that. There's no evidence that there was any first aid aid given to this woman. Now who knows if it would have made a difference? You know, I think the, the wounds were quite grave. But you would think that if these are law enforcement officers, one of their first responsibilities is supposed to be to protect human life. And there appears to have been no effort given in that regard. In addition, we can put a six up on the screen. Once an ambulance did arrive, this was after a decent amount of time it says a doctor at the same attempt to help the woman who was shot was kept away by federal agents. When an ambulance finally arrived, it was blocked from reaching her by law enforcement vehicles and paramedics had to reach her on foot. Another, another eyewitness said that she, they, they didn't even use a stretcher. They carried her out by her arms and legs like a sack of potatoes. So I mean, you tell me what conclusion you can come to when no first aid is administered. A doctor is blocked from treating her. Ambulance arrives, you know, kind of apparently took 10 to 15 minutes and then law enforcement vehicles are blocking the way so the ambulance cannot even reach her. Like the level of care for this woman's life is utterly non existent. Which, you know, I don't think, I don't know if it's a criminal offense. In some states it would be. I don't know if Minnesota has a Good Samaritan law or not, but it's certainly, you know, it's certainly morally bankrupt. Certainly.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We don't know exactly. Obviously we don't know this, you know, exactly. I actually think that's exactly the type of thing they should go to investigation and, or, and this is why I wish I had more faith also in some sort of like proper action after action review because I do think this is an overall tragic situation. Like if I where like again in normal times, what happens? You know, nobody immediately says it's murder and nobody immediately says it's domestic terrorist. And they said we're going to do a full investigation. And then in the meantime, whoever the agency is isn't immediately absolved of behavior and is usually like, okay guys, let's say this was a legal good shoot. We still probably shouldn't have gotten to this anyways. What are all the things that we're going to do to make sure that none of this happens again? And this is why, you know, that's what kind of launched our whole diet tribe. I'm like, yeah, I don't see a way out of this because that's, that's unfortunately where I genuinely do think, like, considering the way that all of the reaction has now come past, like this obviously would be fit as in probably any local pd. I'm assuming if you kill somebody, there's usually not only after action Report, there's usually like a best practices and, or interest training to be able to hammer into people. That's usually, that's kind of what I guess the moderate my position was after George Floyd. I'm like, wow, what a horrific tragedy and murder of this person. We should probably make it so that all of these people are trained in such a way that none of this happens again. It got ultimately distorted, politicized and ultimately that's kind of how we are where we are today, unfortunately. And like, that's, that's where I see things heading currently in this direction. And yeah, I mean that's why like, I'm not, you know, again, I'm not going to deny and I do think that much of the chaos element has come from a lack of training. And in this particular case, again, we don't know the exact officer or any of that. And, and, and, or culture is also one that people often focus on, let's say in the military after a horrific accident, you're like, okay, well what was the command and control culture, you know, that would lead to, to something like that? Even if our troops fired justly and they were put in a bad situation, how did that situation kind of come about? I wish that I had confidence that something like that would take place.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, well, I don't, I mean, I don't think they're interested in that because part of the goal is to scare people, right? I mean, that's part of the goal of the Stephen Miller immigration approach is to scare people and terrorize them in a certain sense so that, you know, immigrants quote, unquote, self deport and so that, you know, people like stay in their lanes and don't come out and protest and are afraid. So, you know, this is like, it's fair to say it's training. And I think that's true. But I think it's also true when you talk about like the command culture and what's coming from the top. Like, I don't think we need to invest. Like, I think we know, like, we see that, you know, we see directly that this is how they, they want these Officers to behave. I mean, they immediately justify any of it. Right? And we'll make up lies. I wanna play Kristi Noem just to show you how what she says doesn't even approach reality. Based on the videos that we can all watch with our own eyes. This is A8. Let's listen to that.

[H]

You asked about a shooting that we just had in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It was an act of domestic terrorism. What happened was our ICE officers were out in enforcement action. They got stuck in the snow because of the adverse weather that is in Minneapolis. They were attempting to push out their vehicle and a woman attacked them and those surrounding them and attempted to run them over and ram them with her vehicle. An officer of ours acted quickly and defensively, shot to protect himself and the people around him. And my understanding is that she was hit and is deceased. We're continuing to gather more information. But this goes to show the assaults that our ICE officers and our law enforcement are under every single day. These vehicle rammings are domestic acts of terrorism. We're working with the Department of Justice to prosecute them. As such, we will continue to protect our ICE officers and in cooperation with other law enforcement agencies as well. You've seen me, in the last couple of days deploy over 2,000 more officers to the Minneapolis area.

[Krystal Ball]

So the picture she paints there is of, oh, these ICE agents were innocently trying to push their cars out of the snow and this maniac domestic terrorist tries to run them down with her vehicle. And fortunately, one of them was quick on the draw and was able to neutralize the threat. Like this is not remotely, not remotely what happened. It's not even close to what happened. And that's the thing that's so crazy, is like, we can all watch it. We all know that this is a blatant, total fabrication. Trisha McLaughlin, who put a nine up on the screen, I mean, hers was similar, not much closer to the reality. She says today ICE officers in Minneapolis were conducting, conducting targeted operations when rioters began blocking ICE officers. And one of these violent rioters weaponized her vehicle, attempting to run over our law enforcement officers and attempt to kill them in act of domestic terrorism. An ICE officer, fearing for his life, the lives of his fellow law enforcement and the safety of the public, fired defensive shots. He used his training and saved his own life and that of his fellow officers. Okay, There is no indication that there was any riot. Like the idea that it's to me a stretch to say that the one officer was in danger, but to indicate that anybody else was in danger. There is zero evidence of that. And then, of course, immediately layman, this woman, any reasonable person look at this video, would say she was just trying to get away. Right. She was not trying to kill anyone. She was literally just trying to exit the scene. And so then to label her a domestic terrorist and say, oh, she's part of these rioters, blah, blah, blah. I mean, again, it's just a fabrication. It does not bear any resemblance to, you know, video evidence that has emerged at this point.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I mean, the snow one is particularly egregious. Again, I think we waited a long time to play the government's narrative because I didn't think it was all that material here. And I do. You know, that's part of the issue. They're not exactly trustworthy. You talked about Chicago and in multiple other instances where they failed in court. I learned that one the hard way. On C. Cotton. Whenever they said that every single person had been a verified gang member, but, you know, comes out that, like, half literally aren't and or, you know, there's no particular evidence. So this is partially why I do not very optimistic about this situation in. In particular, because the level of information that came out here from the federal authorities does. I mean, just look, it almost. It always didn't mean something. It's like, I'm not going to sit here and say the government always lies to you or obviously that. That always. That generally was the case. Like, you should always be very, very skeptical. But the snow one in particular makes it so that you're like, how? How can we really take it seriously when you say this? That's why the video evidence and the testimony and the body camera footage is ultimately what I think matters the most.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on Biggie? You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Because I want to get confident.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

This is DJ Hester Prynne is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist that asks one simple question. Who do you want to be? And what's the song that can take you there? Music changes what you feel, and what you feel changes what you do. Right that moment where a song shifts something inside you, that's where transformation starts. This year, I'm talking to experts across every area of life, like personal finance icon Gene Chatsky, New York Times journalist David Gellis, relationship legend Dan Savage, human connection teacher Mark Groves, and the man who shaped my Ear more than anyone, Questlove. They'll bring the strategies. I'll pair them with the right records and will teach you how to use the music to make change stick. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey everyone, it's Ed Helms and I'm.

[Krystal Ball]

Kal Penn, and we are the hosts.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am talking to film and TV critic, radio and podcast host and Harry Potter super fan Rhianna Dillon to discuss Audible's full cast adaptation of Harry Potter and and the Sorcerer's Stone. What moments in this audiobook capture the feeling of the magical world best for you or just stood out the most?

[Rhianna Dillon]

I always loved reading about the Quidditch matches and I think the audio really gets it because it just plunges you right into the stands you have the crowd sounds like all around you is surround sound, especially if you're listening in headphones.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audio Book Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danny Shapiro]

Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast Family Secrets.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We were in the car like a.

[Krystal Ball]

Rolling Stone came on and he said.

[Saagar Enjeti]

There'S a line in there about your mother. And I said, what? What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.

[Krystal Ball]

I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened.

[Danny Shapiro]

These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming 13th season of Family Secrets. Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us. I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are. Listen to Family secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

I'd be remiss if we didn't put up the President of the United States, he said. I've just viewed the clip of the event, which took place in Minneapolis. It's a horrible thing to watch. The woman screaming was obviously a professional agitator, and the woman driving the car was very disorderly, obstructing and resisting, who then violently, willfully and viciously ran over the ice officer. Ran over. Okay, ran over. Who seems to have shot her in self defense. Based on the attached clip, it's hard to believe he's alive but is now recovering in the hospital. Situation is being studied in its entirety. Blah, blah, blah, Lucky he's alive. Sager recovering in the hospital. And the Minnesota State Police Chief said when he arrived at the scene, he asked them, he asked the agents, federal agents that were on the scene, is anyone else injured? And they said, no, just the woman. But now the President, United States says that, my God, he got run over and is in the hospital recovering. And thank God he's gonna make it. But he's so lucky he escaped with his life. I mean, again, just making stuff up. Totally making stuff up.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They apparently, he apparently did go to hospital, got checked out.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, I don't doubt that he went to the hospital because he needs to go to the hospital for his case so he can, you know, I mean, that will be something that he taught. Oh, I went to the hospital and I had to get evaluated. There's video of him walking perfectly fine off the scene. And again, his colleagues said, no, everybody's fine. I mean, he wasn't taken out. He walked off the scene. I don't doubt he went to a hospital. I'm sure he did because his lawyer probably was like, you need to get your ass to the ER right now. But the idea that he was run over and it's hard to believe he's alive now recovering in the hospital, I mean, none of that is. That's not real. That's not.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I didn't say it was credible. Yeah, I mean, look, I agree, unfortunately, and I mean, you know, at the risk of reiterating myself again, this is the difficulty, but I mean, look, we can end on this. Like, do you not think that every single Democratic politician immediately calling this murder and for prosecution doesn't rise in some way to not the same level because they're not in power. No, but it is kind of important.

[Krystal Ball]

Their version, but they don't know anything either. I actually haven't seen. I haven't seen anyone say it was murder, but I don't doubt that there were Democratic politicians that said it was murder. I think if you look at the video, I think that's a reasonable conclusion to come to. I do not think it's a reason.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Okay, but you don't know that for sure.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't think it's a. Okay. I don't know it for sure what a jury will find because I can't know the future. I think any individual person could look at that Video and say, yeah, I think that's murder. I think that's an absolutely reasonable conclusion to come to. I do not think it's a reasonable conclusion to come to that. She was rioting and they were trying to push their vehicles out of the snow and she tried to run them over. Like that's just invented. A reasonable is that she was murdered.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think, I think, you know, look, if you acknowledge that somebody got hit by a car that you could say that somebody could reasonably think that they're about to get run over. It's not just about the shooting.

[Krystal Ball]

It should never happen. No, it's different than say what they said was that she was trying to run over multiple law enforcement agents.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Sure. Yeah, that's not correct.

[Krystal Ball]

No, that's not.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, that's not correct.

[Krystal Ball]

That does not bear relationship to reality. The, you know, asserting something that is of course disputed. That in your view this was murder and it was not reasonable self defense. That is in connection with reality. So yes, I think those two things are completely different.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, I'm not so sure because that kind of belies the entire idea of self defense. I mean, look, again, you know, to reiterate, like everything that usually becomes so clear to the liberal eye does not usually work out in a court of law.

[Krystal Ball]

But saga.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And that's part of why.

[Krystal Ball]

But here's, here's the difference though. Okay? What, what I'm asserting is that what I think it's murder. And I think you would, I think you would agree that if you look at that video, that is a conclusion. You may not agree with that conclusion, but that is a conclusion you can come to based on the facts that are portrayed in that video and that we know. Well, it is not a reasonable conclusion.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think, I think it just completely ignores any self defense argument. And it's like to me, it's like.

[Krystal Ball]

You'Re not listening purely legally you're not listening to what I'm saying. I don't think it's, it's definitely not open and shut. That much is absolutely the case.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I just think anytime a vehicle touches a law enforcement. Yes, a deceleration.

[Krystal Ball]

Can you say that it is not a fabrication of reality and an invention to look at that video and say he murdered this woman.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He, he intentionally. Well, because that's what, that's what murder did not have intention.

[Krystal Ball]

No, he didn't know. He did not have a reasonable self defense justification. Do you think that it is like a fabrication of reality to look at that and say that?

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean I can a reasonable person.

[Krystal Ball]

Can come to that conclusion. A reasonable person cannot come to conclusion that they were pushing their cars out of the snow and like a maniac, she came in and was trying to run them all over. Okay? Those are two very different things. Taking one side of a contested question is very different from inventing some bullshit that is utter and complete nonsense. Those are different things.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, yes, they certainly are. I guess then it comes down to responsibility and. Or if, you know, if you immediately want to. To lay out an expectation of conviction. And I mean, this gets to my moral certitude point, which is, frankly, the thing that bothers me the most about the left is, like, when we do it, it's fine because we're always in the, you know, in the right. And it kind of ignores that there are violent, genuine, like, violent disagreements by, in some cases, the rest of the population or at least half of the population over these things. And that's where, you know, the legitimacy and the entire idea about the question of immigration kind of comes into this. So that's why I'm bringing it back to, like, was it really responsible to immediately just say, like, oh, yeah, it's absolutely 100 murder? Like, no, if I'm a public official, I don't think so. You're a YouTube pundit just like me. Right. We could say whatever we want. We have no power. But for if, like, people who are also in power to immediately come to that conclusion and also set some expectation where if this officer is not indicted, which I think a very good shot of, either in state and. Or in federal, especially federal, and even in state, I would give it at least a 50, 50 chance of no indictment, let alone going to trial. I think that that is irresponsible. Yeah, because you're setting an expectation, just like in all the other cases that I mentioned, where people have absolute certitude that something happened and they were totally wrong and the jury of their peers.

[Krystal Ball]

Totally disagreed with that expectation should absolutely be set and people should be deeply upset.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, why? So people will buy it after it's not found?

[Krystal Ball]

No, because. Because people should. People should expect accountability from their paid taxpayer. Paid agents of the state should be held to some kind of standard. And we have not seen that happen a single time. Not a single time have any of these ICE thugs been held to any standard. So it is absolutely correct and appropriate to set an expectation that there should be accountability. And look, again, can we say what will happen? No. Should he be indicted? Should it go through the process so that this debate can play out and A jury of his should have gone through the process 100%. And so I think it is not only appropriate, I think it is the responsible thing to do to set that expectation that he should be indicted, that there should be an open and transparent process and that it should go through the justice system so that we can have confidence that there is some level of theoretical accountability with these guys instead of what you get from the trial. I genuinely believe, Sager, that if this man had pulled this woman out and executed her on the street, that Trump and Trisha McLaughlin and Kristi Noem and JD Vance would all justify it and say we stand with them and this was a domestic terrorist and she deserved it. I 100% believe that. And so if I think it is the baseless, the lowest expectation we could possibly have is that there is some sort of a process that plays out where, you know, it can go through the justice system and he can have his day in court and he can have his representation and he can make his case and a jury of his peers can decide.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, I, I don't agree with that actually at all. The idea that you're going to just execute somebody literally on video and it would be just. Would a certain percentage of people maybe do I think the leaders would. Yeah, well no, I think that the reason that people are, I mean you can acknowledge there is an actual question here of self defense. That's part of the reason why this is a debate literally at all. Nobody argued about George Floyd or at least at the time they certainly didn't. Now they do until his toxicology report came out, which again a legitimate question to be able to argue at trial. But that's not the same thing. So no, I think that that's completely inaccurate, honestly. And it really belies which I mean I'm going to bring it back to the certitude like it's not a, it's not a, it is not a decided question really. Either way, I think some people should go to trial. Well, okay, you're saying trial. I think it should potentially be indicted or I think it should potentially go to a grand jury. A grand jury can decide to send it to indictment absolutely whatsoever. But I'm saying if you set an expectation from the beginning that non indictment itself is going to be a travesty of justice. I think that that is kind of setting things up for rioting. Just like what happened with Breonna Taylor where It became a 100% no questions asked had to go and then it didn't happen. And of course People did riot violently and then same thing in multiple of these other cases where. So yeah, I think setting that expectation is bad considering the entire history that I just laid out where people just make up their minds immediately afterwards, set an expectation, and then when people riot violently, then it's excused because justice wasn't served, even though it went through a proper justice system.

[Krystal Ball]

So would you say, okay, when you have lots of politicians on the right saying that these protesters are domestic terrorists, would you say that then that is creating the conditions?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

It's bad for them to be killed, for them to be assaulted?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes, exactly. I don't think it's good.

[Krystal Ball]

It's bad. The reason I'm saying this is because in the past when you've had, for example, you know, shooters who kill people and cite like some, you know, right wing influence or whatever, we say this person is responsible for their own actions. But in this case, you seem to be applying a different standard, which is that if you have. I'm not talking about the person here and say that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm talking about what's going to be a reaction.

[Danny Shapiro]

Okay.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, yes or no question. Do you think that there's going to be riots if she doesn't, if this guy doesn't?

[Krystal Ball]

I have no idea. There aren't riots yet. There's peaceful protests.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, it's 20 degrees cold in Minneapolis.

[Krystal Ball]

Peaceful protest. That's what I see. But wouldn't you say that it's, you know, if, if individual people can commit lawless acts like that's on them. It's not because Ro Khanna said that, you know, this was a murder. No, because I think it was a murder or whatever.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Look, yes, people have absolute, have absolute responsibility for their individual actions. And a culture that is set is not the same legal standard whatsoever. And I would never claim that. I don't claim that left or right. If a violent leftist murders, somebody's a psycho, okay? And that's absolutely on him. You can, I think justifiably, I think we always do, is to try to look at broader contexts in which permissive behavior and, or culture leads to something. Kind of what I was talking about earlier. So, yeah, I mean, that's why the domestic terrorism thing. Look, people should be afraid, okay? It's not, not like I'm not going to sit here and say that it's good branding people immediately as domestic terrorists. It's like, well, what does that mean? Because domestic terrorists belies the exact type of actions which I have opposed. For example, let's say like with the National Guard and, or overt militarization. I think that law enforcement, you know, at its best, should always be handled more on an individual basis. There are genuine questions, crazy questions. For example, in a place like Minneapolis, where the state and the local government genuinely does not believe that people can be illegal, what do you do if you have a federal government who says that people are here illegally and should be deported? That is actually a crazy question. That's. I mean, we have reconciled with that in our past too. So there is not any scenario where you can't have federal agents trying to enforce federal immigration law. Would I say that this is being done in a better and appropriate way? Absolutely not. And I've said for this, I think, entire case that for throughout this entire year that one of the things that they have done is turned it chaotic. And that's part of the reason why much of the polling is going the way that it does. I'm, I do think, as you just said, we can acknowledge the responsibility ultimately of people's actions. And then we can also look at, I mean, you know, it's kind of like with the, with January six, like, would it really have happened if Trump had not made it into a thing? Now, is he individually responsible for the actions of people, like taking a shit on Nancy Pelosi's desk? No. But is he at least like bled and bred into a culture with his rhetoric and the way that that happened? I think everybody agrees with that. And I'm pointing out the same thing whenever it comes to what I think will largely lead to, you know, if you set an expectation of this is the only way that justice can be served. And, you know, notice again, these people do not have a good track record and are usually incorrect whenever it comes to, again, every high profile case that they have decried as murder. And that usually whenever something doesn't work out the way that they wanted to, you know, excuse and in some cases encourage or look past or belittle, you know, the type of violence which is happening, I think that's a problem. And so, yeah, I mean, I think I'm pretty consistent on this question.

[Krystal Ball]

One last thing I want to say just about this, this piece about like, you know, Jacob Fry saying get the fuck down and all of that is, you know, I know you don't support sanctuary city policies, but I just wanna be clear about what they are. There's no instance where you have a mayor or a governor or any sort of elected representative who has like sent in police or the National Guard to like block ICE agents Yeah, they, in fact, in many of these instances, like in Chicago, oftentimes, like the police officers were sort of actively assisting ice, or at least what they would say was like keeping the peace, but basically dealing with the protesters and allowing ICE to do their thing. Okay. So I just don't want people to get the impression that you have Jacob Frey or anyone else who's actively blocking ICE from operating. ICE was operating in Minneapolis. Right. Now they say, we're not gonna use our resources to help you. There are these certain restrictions between what our law enforcement can do and the way that they can assist. We're not gonna collaborate in these. Okay, that is all correct. But the general idea is obviously you have the right as the federal government to come in and operate. Just we do not have to. We are not obligated to spend our city, state, local resources to assist. So I just wanna be clear about what we're talking about here in terms of the interaction between the local officials, the local law enforcement and the ICE and other federal agents.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Sure. But Tim Walsh did say he's potentially putting the Minnesota National Guard on protest.

[Krystal Ball]

That's because of protest. That's because of protests. That's because of. That's what he's afraid of. Because he got a lot of heat for not bringing the National Guard fast enough after George Floyd. Right?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Which was insane. What did he say? That they're full of 19 year old line cooks.

[Krystal Ball]

I object to the National Guard being brought in here as well, but because like it's very clear to me he means that to make sure that the protests don't get out of hand.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Oh, I didn't, I didn't necessarily take it that I could be wrong. I need to look at, you know, maybe I'm Twitter brained and watch too short of a clip, but that's immediately kind of what I saw. And I was like, well, you know, look, we can argue all day. I think sanctuary city policy itself is in and of itself crazy. Being proud of literally just not enforcing federal immigration or not caring about that. Again, you know, I believe also in locality. And if that's what you want to do, like you can do that, if that's what you guys want to spend your taxpayer dollars on, be my guest, I guess. But as long as it's like actually yours and not the feds. But this does, I think open that question. Also, though, where you were talking about earlier about confrontation is. Well, in a scenario of National Guard and or active, what is it like actively trying to impede, which I think there have been instances, let's say in Los Angeles or others pre announcing. Well, weren't there. There were like pre announcing where raids were. I. I need to go check the details before I look exactly what it was. So. But anyways. But there have been. If there are more instances like that, I think most people would say that is actually a crazy. In this type of situation.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, but what do you do about that? But there haven't been instances of that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, there is instances of. Of. Of leaders who have been either pre announcing and. Or warning people about where certain federal immigration raids are, especially if it's a state and. Or local official.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. I mean, look, that is literally like trying to obstruct and. Or stop federal immigration enforcement effectively. Literally aiding people who are here illegally.

[Krystal Ball]

They're free speech. Right. Provide people information. But what. I would just say that there is.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, fine, let's set that standard for all criminals.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm not aware of any instance where there has been, in fact, like I said in all the. I think it's much more the case that the local police officers have assisted federal agents in their activities and generally see themselves sort of like in solidarity with ICE and CBP and whatever. It's just. So it's not that Gavin Newsom or Jacob Fryer, whatever, are saying you can't come in and enforce immigration laws. They're just saying it's a federal law. You enforce it on your own dime.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's right. All right. Should we move to Venezuela?

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on Biggie? You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Because I want to get confident.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

This is DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist. 12 months, 12 areas of your life, money, love, career, confidence. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ed Helms]

Hey, everyone, it's Ed Helms and I'm.

[Krystal Ball]

Kal Penn and we are the hosts.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am talking to film and TV critic, radio and podcast host and Harry Potter super fan Rhianna Dillon to discuss Audible's full cast adaptation of Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. What moments in this audiobook capture the feeling of the magical world best for you or just stood out the most?

[Rhianna Dillon]

I always loved reading about the Quidditch matches. And I think the audio really gets it because it just plunges you right into to the stands you have the crowd sounds like all around you is surround sound, especially if you're listening in headphones.

[Ed Helms]

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audio Book Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Brad (Brad vs Everyone podcast host)]

The social media trend is landing some gen zers in jail, the progressive media darling whose public meltdown got her fired, and the massive TikTok boycott against Target. That actually makes no sense. You won't hear about these online stories in the mainstream media, but you can keep up with them and all the other entertaining and outrageous things happening online in media and in politics with the Brad vs. Everyone podcast. Listen to the Brad vs. Everyone podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.