2/11/25: Trump Threatens Gaza 'Hell', Elon Floats OpenAI Buy, Chinese EVs Dominate US Competition, Stephen A Floats Presidential Run

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – February 11, 2025

Hosts: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Release Date: February 11, 2025
Publisher: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar, the hosts delve into a multitude of pressing issues shaping the global and domestic landscape. The discussion spans from former President Donald Trump's controversial statements about Gaza to Elon Musk's attempt to acquire OpenAI, the burgeoning dominance of Chinese electric vehicles (EVs) in the U.S. market, and Stephen A. Smith's surprising consideration of a presidential run. This comprehensive analysis offers listeners a fearless examination of power dynamics, technological advancements, and political maneuvers that hold significant implications for the future.

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1. Donald Trump's Threats Regarding Gaza

Trump's Vision for Gaza

Krystal and Saagar begin the episode by dissecting Donald Trump's recent statements about Gaza. Trump outlined a plan to "own" Gaza, proposing the creation of "beautiful, safe communities" for Palestinians away from existing danger zones. He emphasized that Palestinians would not have the right to return, framing it as a "real estate development for the future" (03:02).

Notable Quote:

Donald Trump [03:02]: "Think of it as a real estate development for the future."

Critical Analysis

Saagar expresses deep concerns about the feasibility and morality of Trump's proposal. He questions the rationale behind displacing over a million Palestinians and the logistical nightmare of rebuilding a region devastated by conflict.

Notable Quote:

Saagar [03:29]: "This is absolute madness. To have to rebuild a place burned to the ground by supposedly our foreign ally... It's one of the most ambitious nation-building projects in American history."

Implications for U.S. Foreign Policy

The hosts highlight the potential fallout of such a policy, including strained relations with Jordan and Egypt—countries that have historically preferred avoiding conflict over accommodating Palestinian refugees. They also discuss the internal consequences, such as the enormous financial burden of rebuilding and administering the region, and the moral standpoint of U.S. involvement in ethnic cleansing.

Notable Quote:

Krystal [06:24]: "And on probably the most sensitive, some of the most sensitive land on the entire planet."

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2. Elon Musk’s Attempted Acquisition of OpenAI

The $97.4 Billion Bid

Transitioning to technological advancements, Krystal and Saagar address Elon Musk's recent bid to purchase OpenAI for $97.4 billion. They trace the history of OpenAI's transition from a nonprofit to incorporating for-profit elements, and Musk's concerns over the organization's shift towards commercial interests under Sam Altman's leadership.

Notable Quote:

Saagar [20:29]: "A consortium of investors led by Elon is offering $97.4 billion to buy the nonprofit that controls OpenAI."

OpenAI’s Response and Future Prospects

The discussion covers OpenAI's stance on the acquisition, emphasizing the organization's commitment to its open mission despite Musk's aggressive moves. They explore the potential impact on the AI landscape, including competition with other tech giants and the broader implications for artificial intelligence governance.

Notable Quote:

Donald Trump [23:44]: "Elon tries all sorts of things for a long time. This is the open mission is not for sale."

Industry Implications

Krystal and Saagar analyze how Musk's actions could influence the direction of AI development, potentially hindering OpenAI's progress towards becoming a fully for-profit enterprise. They also discuss the strategic maneuvers of tech leaders in shaping AI policies and the competitive tensions within the industry.

Notable Quote:

Krystal [25:04]: "They want to automate your jobs out of existence. They think the future for humanity is transhumanism."

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3. Dominance of Chinese Electric Vehicles in the U.S. Market

BYD’s Strategic Moves

The hosts shift focus to the automotive industry, highlighting BYD’s announcement of integrating the "God's Eye" self-driving system across all its models in China. BYD's aggressive pricing and technological advancements position it as a formidable competitor to Tesla and other U.S. EV manufacturers.

Notable Quote:

Saagar [38:46]: "BYD is now installing it on every single model that they sell, including the Seagull budget hatchback, which it currently retails inside of China for $9,600."

Comparative Analysis: BYD vs. Tesla

Krystal and Saagar compare BYD’s offerings with Tesla’s, pointing out the significant cost differences and feature sets. They argue that Chinese EVs offer superior value, forcing U.S. manufacturers to reconsider their strategies to remain competitive.

Notable Quote:

Saagar [41:08]: "Their battery supply chain is heavily relied on by Tesla and other US automakers. So they are, I would put them almost 15, 20 years ahead of us."

Government Policies and Market Impact

The discussion extends to U.S. industrial policies, specifically the rollback of EV support programs under the Trump administration. This policy stance is criticized for hindering the growth of the domestic EV industry and allowing Chinese manufacturers to gain a substantial market share both domestically and internationally.

Notable Quote:

Krystal [52:23]: "Trump has made it quite clear that any sort of EV support that was previously provided under the Biden administration, he wants to roll back."

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4. AI Spending and Technological Advancements

Tech Giants’ Investment in AI

Krystal and Saagar examine the relentless investment by major tech companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Nvidia in artificial intelligence. They highlight the exponential capital expenditures aimed at achieving breakthroughs in AI, emphasizing the race to develop Advanced General Intelligence (AGI).

Notable Quote:

Saagar [30:51]: "It's terrifying because what they all seem to be saying behind the scenes is we're much closer than anybody seems to think."

Deepseek’s Innovation

The hosts discuss Deepseek’s advancement in AI, particularly its ability to develop efficient models with significantly lower energy consumption compared to predecessors like ChatGPT. This innovation challenges existing paradigms and showcases the rapid evolution within the AI sector.

Notable Quote:

Krystal [53:17]: "Deepseek uses a massively lower amount of energy than ChatGPT does."

Implications for the Workforce

The potential impact of AI on the workforce is a central theme, with Krystal and Saagar warning about widespread job automation and the resulting economic and social challenges. They stress the urgent need for policies to address these disruptions.

Notable Quote:

Krystal [35:15]: "What they unleash there is not going to stay there. They are like, we've come up with a final solution for this territory."

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5. Stephen A. Smith’s Potential Presidential Run

Transition from Sports Commentary to Politics

In a surprising turn, Krystal and Saagar explore Stephen A. Smith’s hints at a possible presidential bid. They discuss his charisma, unapologetic stance on controversial issues, and his potential appeal to a broad electorate.

Notable Quote:

Krystal [56:54]: "You know who's gonna fix these problems? Sagar. President Stephen A. Smith."

Political Strategy and Messaging

The hosts analyze Smith’s political messaging, particularly his emphasis on civil rights and his willingness to engage in contentious debates. They argue that his unfiltered approach could resonate with voters disillusioned with traditional political rhetoric.

Notable Quote:

Krystal [63:13]: "He understands the attention economy and he's not afraid of it."

Comparative Analysis with Trump

Drawing parallels between Smith and Donald Trump, Krystal and Saagar discuss how both figures thrive on controversy and possess a unique ability to captivate audiences. They consider the implications of Smith entering the political arena and how it might reshape future elections.

Notable Quote:

Sagar [60:49]: "He feeds off of that. Trump is very similar in that regard."

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Conclusion

In this episode, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti provide a thorough and unflinching analysis of some of the most critical issues of our time. From the murky waters of U.S. foreign policy in Gaza to the high-stakes arena of artificial intelligence and the automotive industry's global competition, the hosts leave no stone unturned. Additionally, the speculation surrounding Stephen A. Smith's potential presidential run adds an unexpected dimension to the political discourse. Breaking Points continues to serve as a vital platform for holding the powerful accountable and offering candid insights into issues that shape our world.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content segments to focus solely on the substantive discussions between Krystal and Saagar.

Transcript

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[Krystal]

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[Krystal]

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[Stephen A. Smith]

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[Krystal]

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[Stephen A. Smith]

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[Krystal]

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[Stephen A. Smith]

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[Donald Trump]

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[Sagar]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Krystal]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Sagar]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited ad free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Sagar]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] Donald Trump being asked here about Palestinian right of return in his plan to own Gaza. He says, no, that's not gonna happen, actually, let's take a listen.

[Krystal]

Beautiful communities for the 1.9 million people, we'll build beautiful communities, safe communities. Could be five, six, could be two, but we'll build safe communities a little bit away from where they are, where all of this danger is. In the meantime, I would own this.

[Donald Trump]

Think of it as a real estate development for the future.

[Krystal]

It would be a beautiful piece of land. Would the Palestinians have the right to be returned? No, they wouldn't, because they're going to.

[Donald Trump]

Have much better housing. Much better.

[Krystal]

In other words, I'm talking about building a permanent place for them because if they have to return now, it'll be years before you could ever. It's not habitable, but it will be years before it could happen. I'm talking about starting to build. And I think I could make a deal with Jordan. I think I could make a deal with Egypt. You know, we give them billions and billions of dollars.

[Sagar]

So, yeah, that's where we're currently at right now is not only is the quote, unquote, right of return and all of that being thrown out the window, but they're all just willingly gonna go to Egypt and to Jordan. The King of Jordan actually is here in Washington today. He'll be. Oh, that's right, with Donald Trump around 11:30 in the morning. I'm curious to see what happens from that right now on the White House schedule. Actually, there's no joint statement between the two, which I'm very interested in. Because usually, like with Bibi, if you remember, there was at press conferences, it's usually a declaration of a statement, a policy. We agreed on these two things. There will be. Currently there is no ability for the press to be able to ask any questions. I know this is getting technical, but what that means is that you remember, there's those sessions. Well, he'll be in the Oval Office with the King of Jordan, and then the press will come in and shout questions. Right now on the White House schedule that I'm looking at, both of those are closed, which means that they will not be making a declaration. I'm thinking at the request of The King of Jordan. But this just. I can't even wrap my head around where this bullshit came from. Because the crazy thing is that these statements are coming from the President of the United States. So it's not only a declaration of, we're gonna own Gaza and we're gonna like split it up. International zone where no US troops will be there. The Israelis will watch it, but they're not gonna have sovereignty. Cause we're gonna own it and we're gonna rent it and then we'll rebuild it. And in the meantime, people will go to Jordan and to Egypt where both of those countries said they would rather go to war than to do that. And what exactly is. Why did we decide to underwrite for the destruction of this place? And now we have to pay for it and administer. It's the most insane thing. The only thing I can hang my hat on is that poll we showed yesterday, which is only 13% of Americans were like, yeah, that's a good idea actually, by the way, I wanna meet those people. Who are you? Who is out there? Because if you stack it together with everything that is happening right now, it is clear that we are talking about one of the most ambitious nation building projects in American history. To have to rebuild a place burned to the ground by supposedly our foreign ally. We have to facilitate the ethnic, the cleansing of this territory, use U.S. policy to force other countries to take that population and then we have to pay for it. I mean, I don't remember this being a significant part of the campaign or put aside the anti war stuff. Just think about, at a basic level, this whole idea of Make America great again. When we're talking here about a unilateral nation building program for a foreign nation, for a foreign population, it's like on every level it is absolute madness.

[Krystal]

And on probably the most sensitive, some of the most sensitive land on the entire planet.

[Sagar]

I genuinely, I don't know where this shit comes from. What concerns me the most is like you said, the apologia that we largely see from MAGA meeting and others who are just like. Cause we saw this in Afghanistan, you know, everybody just turned all of a sudden when we withdrew from Afghanistan, it's like, oh, we should have held on to Bagram and all of this. And then you asked Trump and you were like, well, we actually should have kept troops there the whole time. You're like, okay, so you didn't actually.

[Krystal]

You never meant it. Yeah, well, and the other thing is like the position that, oh, this is the opening negotiating position.

[Sagar]

Yeah, to what Purpose.

[Krystal]

Who are you negotiating with?

[Sagar]

Also, for what purpose? Like, what are the things.

[Krystal]

So what is the end negotiating position? Like, even if you buy that, which I don't particularly buy that, especially at this point, you know, he said it very intentionally said it. He's been asked now multiple times, keeps reiterating it, making it clear that this is what we're gonna do. And Palestinians, world people will be allowed to go there, but Palestinians will never be allowed to return. We're gonna keep it. Not temporarily, permanently. It's just like, I don't know what makes you think that this is some casual first bid proposal? And also, even if you think that, where do you think that this is ultimately going? It's absolutely one of the most destructive, immoral, and dumbest ideas I have ever heard in my entire life. No part of it makes sense. And to go back to the King of Jordan being here, Trump has threatened them with tariffs, number one, which I don't think would really do. I mean, it would cause them pain, but I don't think it would move them at all because both Egypt and Jordan see this very much as an existential issue for their own power and regime. And he has also threatened to cut off the aid, the very large dollar amounts of a proportionally that we give to Egypt and Jordan and seeming to not understand, like, the whole reason we give those countries that much aid, it's basically like a bribe for them to be nice to Israel. That is the purpose of that aid.

[Sagar]

Yeah, it's part of the Camp David Accord.

[Krystal]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sagar]

We're like, we give them both equal amounts. I actually don't think it's a bad idea. You're like, hey, cut it out. And actually, if you look at the policy, it was very successful for many years. What we're effectively saying is that now we will move away from peace in the Sinai, which did. Look, you can make fun of it for all you want. It stopped. There were two wars in the 1960s and 1970s that US policy largely was able to just buy off the two sides and say, we're not gonna do this. I would say that's decent. You know, 50 years of no fighting between those two nations, especially because that's an existential threat to the Middle East. And obviously with our current political system, that would've drawn us in to the conflict. Now we're talking about leveraging and moving away from that Camp David process, specifically to facilitate the expulsion of all Gazans so that we can own it, occupy it, pay for its rebuilding. To what end? That's why I reject this negotiating thing. The negotiation only makes sense in terms of I'm going to stop the conflict. The only way to stop the conflict is to say, okay, Israel, Hamas, we gotta figure out a way that this is gonna work. Now, we have a lot of leverage, actually, on both sides, but the reason why I'm even more concerned is that all roads currently lead to some disastrous intervention. So Donald Trump, as asked yesterday about the hostage deal, and we're gonna talk a little bit about there's been a breakdown in the ceasefire. I think saying that we're gonna facilitate the expulsion of Gaza probably doesn't help for the people who live there. But now he is saying that if we do not release all the hostages By Saturday at 12 to Hamas, I will cancel it. All bets are off and let hell break loose. Let's take a listen. Should a ceasefire then be off?

[Krystal]

Well, I would say this, and I'm.

[Donald Trump]

Going to let that because that's Israel's decision. But as far as I'm concerned, if.

[Krystal]

All of the hostages aren't returned By Saturday at 12:00, I think it's an appropriate time.

[Donald Trump]

I would say cancel it and all.

[Krystal]

Bets are off and let hell break out.

[Donald Trump]

Say they ought to be returned by 12:00 on Saturday and if they're not.

[Krystal]

Returned, all of them not in drips and drabs, not 2 and 1 and.

[Donald Trump]

3 and 4 and 2.

[Krystal]

Saturday at.

[Donald Trump]

12 o'clock and after that, I would say.

[Krystal]

All hell is going to break out and I don't think they're going to do it.

[Sagar]

So what does that mean? You know what, hell can be unleashed that has not yet been unleashed. And actually, I think I have an idea which is Israel has not held back anything other than a nuclear weapon. Can we agree on that?

[Krystal]

Yeah.

[Sagar]

So what's left? America? Okay, so we're gonna bomb Gaza. Great. Great image to be able to see to what end. So that foreign hostages can get released, even if they're dual citizens. I don't remember us ever doing that before. For what purpose?

[Krystal]

Well, also, those hostages are in the zone that all hell will be breaking loose in as well, you know. And we know that hostages have been killed through IDF operations already, according to the released hostages.

[Sagar]

Not, you know, from others. They're the ones who are saying that.

[Krystal]

Exactly. We're not like making this up. This is confirmed. So it's. I don't even know what to say at this point. But number one, as you were pointing out in Sagar, like, what motivation does Hamas have to stay in a deal when you openly have the President of the United States saying, what we're going to do is complete ethnic cleanse, get every Palestinian out of the Gaza Strip and personally own the territory. Like that kind of, kind of strips any kind of goodwill reason why you would continue in a deal with these people. And the other pieces, of course, the way that the media frames this is all, oh, Hamas is backing out of the deal, blah, blah, blah. But also Israel has never really technically abided by the terms of the ceasefire. They never have had a total cessation of violence. Jeremy. And our friends over at dropsite have done an effective job of tracking the fact that they have continued to shoot and kill Palestinians even after the ceasefire. Hamas also says, and we don't have verification of this, but this is their side of the story, that some of the aid provisions, requirements for humanitarian assistance that were part of the deal have also been violated as well. So they're saying Israel is in breach and we're not gonna continue to go forward. But I do think that really the governing factor here is what incentive do you have to continue in a deal with these people when they're openly broadcasting? Like, number one, Bibi is always openly broadcasted. Basically, like, there not gonna be any phase two. We're gonna go back to bombing as soon as phase one is over. And number two, the United States of America, which really holds all the cards here, let's not pretend it's otherwise, is like, we've come up with a final solution for this territory. And anyone who thinks, like, if you actually think Palestinians are just gonna leave the Gaza Strip and not fight and not like lay down their life as they have for decades now, to try to preserve the homes that they have there and the land that they have there. Like, you have gotta be the dumbest person on the planet if you actually think that is the case. And you don't have to be an expert in Middle Eastern relations or the history of the Israel Palestine conflict to know that that is the dumbest thing you could possibly believe that people are just because Trump says so, gonna be, oh, you're right, now we'll give up our multi decade long resistance struggle to go and live in the desert in Egypt or Jordan or whatever. Utterly preposterous.

[Sagar]

Yeah, let's put B5 up there on the screen, says Hamas says it will delay the release of more hostages, putting the Gaza ceasefire at risk. Now what has happened is that we have B7. Can we put that there on the screen in response that the IDF is saying that they are quote, unquote, being on high alert. Complete violation of the ceasefire deal and a hostage deal. It just looks like it points to a, it looks like it would just lead to a resumption of the war. And obviously that's something that the world and all has dealt with. But with the subtext of Trump here saying the United States is going to take over Gaza, you can just imagine this is exactly what happened back in 2005. What took Iraq from a intra country sectarian conflict into a global magnet for jihad was by making it into a fight against the American evil empire. By drawing every global jihadist from across the world world to Syria and others. That's what turned it into this horrible civil war and war against our own soldiers. I foresee exactly the same thing happening here. There are, however many people are alive, 1.7 million. I think we could reasonably assume that hundreds of thousands will fight to stop from being expelled from the territory that they think is theirs. And you know, what is the alternative that will happen for all of this? So none of this is good because like I said, at the very least, even if there is, is no US occupation and it's just Israeli conquest of the territory and it's the United States sponsoring that, what will that lead to in the future? And even that, like I said, I don't think it's good, but I don't think there would be huge pushback here necessarily at home. But there is no way in any way that even 10, 15, 20% of this can occur without hundreds of billions of American dollars, not to mention security guarantees. I mean, we railed against the Gaza humanitarian pier. How much construction material and all in security is gonna have to be run to facilitate some rebuilding. And you know, even if the Israelis take it over, it's not gonna be easy. There's gonna be a massive insurgency across this entire place, which we have seen. I mean, you know, it doesn't make the news anymore, but every day if you look, when the war was going on, five IDF soldiers killed, eight IDF soldiers killed, west bank, there's stuff that's popping. Yeah, we haven't even talked about that, so I don't know, this is a nightmare situation. He easily could be sleepwalking us into a foreign intervention. And take all of that out and just talk about politics. This is the easiest way to sink your presidency. Americans do not want American soldiers to die for Gaza or for Israel. Nobody signed up for that. And this is some scheme where he thinks that by talking tough and all of that, that he, and what he doesn't understand is we're dealing very much with the same type of revolutionary force that we had in the past, where if their only option is to continue to fight for the existential purpose of existence on that land, why would they ever negotiate? They will fight to the last. And I mean, I guess we can oblige them their death if we want to, but why would we even want to? This is not land that's ours or that we even particularly want. Nobody signed up for this. And then, you know, even after that, to what end? So nobody can answer that question. I don't know. I've said out of everything that has happened, this is the one I'm most worried about. It's the area where he has more unilateral authority than any. I mean, there's no court system that's gonna stop you from going into Gaza. There is no Supreme Court order that's gonna be happening. The President can tomorrow order US military jets start bombing or American soldiers and they'll start running security. Or this pressure on Egypt and on Jordan for this expulsion. And you know, remember those three American service members who were killed by that Iranian drone that happened in Jordan. We have a lot of people who live in Jordan. Do you know how many Americans live in Egypt? I mean, it's gotta be tens of thousands of U.S. citizens. It's a green light on all those people as well. So I'm very worried about the situation.

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[Sagar]

Let's get to AI. This is speaking of Elon Musk attempted coups. Well, we have another attempted coup here by Elon. Although I gotta tell you, on this one I'm actually pretty on board. Not necessarily with Elon, but against Sam Altman and the Evil Empire of OpenAI. So let's go and put this up there on the screen. It broke out yesterday. A consortium of investors led by Elon is offering 97.4 billion to buy the nonprofit that controls OpenAI. Okay, everybody stick with us because this gets into complicated contract law and also law as it pertains to non government NGOs, non profit organization and the conversion of nonprofit to for profit. So what has happened is if we step back in the past, back in 2015, Elon and Sam Altman start OpenAI as a nonprofit. Now after the success of ChatGPT, what happens? OpenAI, the nonprofit establishes a for profit sub entity of the nonprofit which does deals with Microsoft and becomes a for profit entity that is then governed by this nonprofit institution. Led to a bunch of drama in that, you know, coup where Sam Altman was ousted and then he was brought back in and there were all these questions about what the hell was Going on. What Elon and his group of investors are doing is saying, let us buy the nonprofit that oversees the for profit. The reason is because Sam Altman is currently trying to turn the company from a nonprofit that owns the sub entity into a total for profit enterprise. I know this is extremely complicated and it's very obvious what happened here. It started out as AI for the good of humanity, and now it's how do we juice enterprise sales at Microsoft? So that's the subtext of everything. Put your feelings about Elon and all of that aside. The point that at least he makes here is, hey, you solicited funds for the nonprofit and under false pretenses of it being an open, hence in the name OpenAI open source platform that was supposed to be the good for everybody and have turned it into a big technology company that's worth hundreds of billions of dollars. So this unsolicited offer is to the board to try and do forestall that conversion into this. Now, Sam Altman has now replied in an interview. He is currently in France at the AI Summit where JD Vance, Sundar Pichai and all these other leaders, people like Narendra Modi and others are currently in attendance. And he responded in that interview. So guys, let's go ahead and take a listen to what Sam Altman had to say.

[Krystal]

The headlines right now, Elon Musk making a bid apparently for OpenAI. Your response? You're turning him down for 97 billion in.

[Donald Trump]

I mean, look, OpenAI is not for sale. The open mission is not for sale. Elon tries all sorts of things for a long time. This is the late, you know, this week's episode.

[Krystal]

You take it seriously at all. What do you think he's trying to.

[Donald Trump]

Drive out with this?

[Krystal]

I think he's probably just trying to slow us down.

[Donald Trump]

He obviously is a competitor.

[Krystal]

It's, you know, he's working hard and.

[Donald Trump]

Raised a lot of money for xai.

[Krystal]

And they're trying to compete with us from a technological perspective, from, you know, getting the product into the market.

[Donald Trump]

And I wish he would just compete by building a better product. But I think there's been a lot of tactics, many, many lawsuits, all sorts of other crazy stuff.

[Krystal]

Now this.

[Donald Trump]

And we'll try to just put our head down and keep working.

[Krystal]

Does it make it more difficult to move from that nonprofit model to that.

[Donald Trump]

For profit model for OpenAI? We're not moving to a for profit model where, I mean, we're not sure we're going to do it all. But no matter what, the nonprofit will.

[Krystal]

Continue to be extremely important. It will drive the mission and will continue to exist. Do you think Musk's approach then is.

[Donald Trump]

From a position of insecurity about X?

[Krystal]

Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity.

[Donald Trump]

I feel for the guy. You feel for him? I do, actually.

[Krystal]

I don't think he's like a happy person. I do feel for him.

[Donald Trump]

Okay.

[Krystal]

Do you worry that he has this proximity to the president and he can influence the decision making of the US Presidency and policies around this agenda on AI? Not particularly. Maybe I should, but not particularly. I mean, I try to just wake.

[Donald Trump]

Up and think about, like, how we're.

[Krystal]

Gonna make our technology better.

[Sagar]

So shots across the bow says he's an unhappy, insecure person, but that's probably true. Just look at, you know, the sliminess of him. Like, oh, well, it's not technically we're moving. It's like, no, dude, that's exactly what you are doing. You obviously directly violated the original spirit of the company. But this stuff matters because, you know, what we've talked about since the beginning of the Trump administration. It's arguable that this will be the legacy of the next four years for AI Deepseek. We obviously saw the impact on our stock markets here at home, but what the future of this technology and how it's governed. And this just shows you how much of it's like basically a plaything of 10 different people who get to decide the fate of this entire sector of our economy.

[Krystal]

That's exactly right. And my understanding was like, part of Elon putting in this bid is it then put some valuation on the nonprofit piece and then may make it more expensive or more difficult for them to be able to convert over. That was my very rudimentary understanding of the business move that was going on here ultimately. And also, I mean, it's just like typical Elon kind of like trollish behavior. But Sam Altman was really hardest hit in the whole Deep Seq development because a bunch of the assumptions that he has really made about the way that AI will grass were really dealt a blow with deepseek being able to come online, be at least as technically proficient as ChatGPT is with much less funding, whatever the real funding number is. We have the technical papers to see that they did innovate and they are doing things in a more efficient manner, even to the extent of when you put in a query to chatgpt versus when you put in a query to Deep Seq. Deepseek uses a massively lower amount of energy than chatgpt does. They genuinely innovated there. Sam was betting on two things. Number one, that after an initial foray into making this all open source, they flipped and decided that the future really was in closed models with partnerships from big tech giants like Microsoft. DeepSeq blows some of that up, being an open source model itself. Then the other thing he bet is that the development would proceed by which company had the most billions of dollars to throw at, effectively building bigger and bigger data centers. And Deep SEQ really sort of blows up both of those things. So he's in kind of a difficult position right now and sort of grasping and all of those sorts of things. Elon senses that Elon also, you'll recall after Trump had Sam Altman at the White House announced his big $500 billion Stargate, like boondoggle effectively at the this point, Elon immediately chimes in to shit all over the whole thing, which was extraordinary because, I mean, normally Trump would never brook something like that. And he just took it and he got asked about and he was like, well, Elon hates the guy, and I harbor my own hatreds too, or something like that. It was a very Trumpian response, particularly.

[Sagar]

Likes one of those individuals.

[Krystal]

He said hate. He has a hatred for one of them, I think, is what he said. But I mean, I mean, in a certain sense, like, the language was very Trumpian. In another sense, it was very unusual because Trump typically, when someone is out shining him, getting too big for their britches, overstepping, undercutting him, like, he would not tolerate that. You just asked Steve Bannon, who was out of the first administration, like that. And so there's something different here going on with Elon. I don't know if it's just the power of like. Like Elon's mythology of being this great inventor genius that sort of captured Trump and that he's fallen into. I don't know if it's just like, they have this very mutually beneficial relationship right now where Elon sort of serves, in a sense, as a bit of a heat shield for Trump and brings to bear, obviously, Twitter and the power of that megaphone brings to bear his nearly limitless wealth that he can use to threaten primary challenges against anyone who would challenge the Trump agenda. You know, it could just be this, like, mutually beneficial relationship. I'm not really sure, but it has been. That part has been very out of character for Trump in terms of the way he normally operates with these personalities. But, yeah, the real point here is that all of these people, Elon, Sam and All the rest of the dozen people who are at the forefront of AI development here and really calling the shots, et cetera, like they want to automate your jobs out of existence. They think that the future for humanity is transhumanism and humans. Plus, as Steve Bannon put it, they have all of these almost religious notions of what AI is going to do and the way that it's going to save humanity. And it makes them very dangerous people, not only because the technology is very dangerous, but also because anytime you have someone who casts themselves in that role as like the sole savior of humanity and they really believe that, and I mean, Elon definitely believes this, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sam and some of these other guys believe that as well and have cast themselves in this hero and savior of humanity role, it starts to justify all sorts of things that are really not justifiable. And also, we didn't vote for any of these people to be our saviors and to re engineer the social contract or automate all our jobs out of existence or even try to do such a thing. They've appointed themselves in these roles and it is extraordinarily dangerous the games that they're playing.

[Sagar]

Yeah, let's actually put. Can we please put C6 up on the screen just to show that none of this is slowing down. It's a graph here from the Wall Street Journal. The tech giants doubling down on their massive AI spending. So currently the increase in the last quarter, actually there was a huge increase in the capital spend, despite all of this talk around Deepseek. And I think the reason why is because it gets to the question about cutting edge of technology and training new models versus being able to execute things at a much cheaper way. And this gets to some bigger questions too, about how the deep seek thing was even able to happen. They estimate it probably cost over a billion dollars to train a model before it supposedly cost 6 million. But it does still justify, at least in the minds of Meta, of Google, of Microsoft and Amazon, of just like ungodly amounts of money that is being spent right now on AI. And the reason why is because all of them think that if you spend, like in the case of Google, we're talking about 52.5 billion in a single year that is just spent on AI development. All of them say, well, let's say you burn several hundred billion, but you create the breakthrough AGI. Well, the enterprise value of that is trillion. So even then the capital expenditure, even though it's a ton of money in absolute terms, in a Fraction of what the value of what it would mean to be the first to the actual breakthrough of the technology. And it's terrifying because what they all seem to be saying behind the scenes is we're much closer than anybody seems to think. Now there's maybe an element here of some alarmism and all of that, but we can see the rapid development and the ability to use these programs for a series of white collar tasks like that alone is already. That's a big step change. I mean I use it all the time. I probably use it every single day for a variety of research tasks. Me too, and others. It's just better in terms of if I be like compare the production value of BYD versus Tesla. It sounds stupid but. But previously you have to Google BYD production value, then you have to Google Tesla and you have to manually do it together. If you use I can have it through paywalls and whatever Kwall use archive or whatever. And it's just like in two seconds I literally get the answer. That's just an example for something that I do. I can't even imagine if I still had some spreadsheet jockey job like half of these guys in finance. This is probably the greatest things that's ever happened for them. They can compute and have models built in seconds that probably manually would have taken forever. So you can easily see how that's going to change right now. And so I have no idea how we'll even look in the future.

[Krystal]

There also could be, I mean to go back to that chart that we just put up on the screen. It's also possible that this is contributing to a massive stock market bubble because of Nvidia. Yeah, well not only that, but I mean all of these companies, their valuation is really dependent on the idea that they're at the forefront of AI development and that that is going to be this just like profoundly valuable development. There's questions about that. Especially after Deep Seek. There's questions about that. I was just looking it up on Financial times, not on ChatGPT, but Alphabet, Amazon, Apple, Meta, Microsoft, Nvidia and Tesla. They accounted for half of The S&P 500's gains last year through October. The stock market lives and dies by what happens with these handful of tech giants. And there's a lot of assumptions about AI that go into those valuations that makes it quite vulnerable. The other thing that I think is worth really keeping an eye on as we watch what Elon's doing in the federal government is we know they've already unleashed AI on the Department of Education. And I think one of the goals is, is to use the federal workforce as kind of guinea pigs in this direction of automating a lot of jobs and automating the workforce. And maybe you don't have a lot of personal sympathy for federal government bureaucrats, although I would say that you should because many of them do very important jobs and forego higher salaries that they could be getting in the private sector in order to perform those valuable functions. But even if you don't feel that.

[Sagar]

Way, I assume are good people.

[Krystal]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So in any case, even if you don't share that empathy and sympathy and admiration for the civil servants working for the federal government, what they unleash there is not going to stay there. So if they are able to use AI to automate a massive part of the federal workforce and use our public goods and public civil service infrastructure as effectively a science experiment to see how many human beings they can get rid of, you don't think that's going to have spillover effects? You don't think that that's like a model for how they're going to roll things out across the country and how companies are going to look to that and use those learnings in order to automate their own workforces. I mean, these are real things that are on the table. And I think that's certainly part of the plan here with what Elon wants to do with the federal government as well, to try to, you know, innovate in that job loss department.

[Stephen A. Smith]

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[Donald Trump]

To make your college home away from home feel more like your own. Make your dorm the place to be with Roku TV or bring a Roku streaming stick to easily access all your your favorite free and premium content like iHeartradio. Stream your favorite playlist with the Roku Vibe setting smart light strips to sync your music to millions of colors and make your dorm feel more like you. Make your dorm the place to be with Roku TVs streaming players and smart lights. Head to Roku.com or your favorite retailer to deck out your dorm.

[Stephen A. Smith]

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[Sagar]

Let'S move now to Chinese EV maker BYD, which has just made a a huge announcement that could potentially change the EV industry. Let's put this up there on the screen. News came out of China just yesterday. BYD will now offer, quote, God's Eye self driving system on all of its models. So BYD obviously is the largest electric vehicle maker in China and it now has a quote unquote advanced self driving system. Now every video I've watched says it's roughly equal to the Tesla full self driving. It has some important differences that the L3 nerds will dig into, but let's just say it's better than what's on your Toyota CR or your Honda CR V Assisted Autopilot. So we leave it at that. But the extraordinary part of it is not the real fact that it's rolling out, but the fact that it is now installing it on every single model that they sell, including the Seagull budget hatchback, which it currently retails inside of China for $9,600. Yes, you heard me correctly. This is a huge deal because it challenges the Tesla market share abroad. So in the United States, obviously you cannot buy BYD. You can't buy any of these Chinese EVs. But China, which we're about to get to, is a net exporter actually of cars. Their electric vehicles are highly desirable for many people across the world, in Europe and elsewhere and a lot of areas, especially with cheaper cost of living. They have genuine innovation in a lot of their electric car industry. They have a battery supply chain which is heavily relied on by Tesla and other US automakers. So they are, I would put them almost 15, 20 years ahead of us. They also, they don't have no EPA telling them what they can and can't do. They're like, if you can extend the range, if you need regulation, the government is there to help you because it's an instrument of national power. And it's extraordinary. You were talking in the intro how Americans currently have a real boomer mindset around Chinese cars. I love electric vehicles. I'll be totally transparent. If these weren't from China, I would buy one in a heartbeat. They are better than any cars that we sell here in America.

[Krystal]

No. If we didn't have like just a block on these.

[Sagar]

Yeah. Oh, I would buy them. Yeah. There's no question. Any other country, I would buy it.

[Krystal]

Our domestic EV industry would be dead.

[Sagar]

Oh, dead as a doorman over. There's only a few select people who are telling Americans and others how good these cars are. And one of these guys who I follow is Forest. He does Forrest Auto reviews. I love the way that he does reviews, but he's able to get his hands on a lot of different Chinese EVs. I watch like every video that this guy does. So we thought we would put together a mashup of some of the cars, the Chinese EVs reviews that he's done in the past. The very last one that we'll show you is the actual Seagull from BYD that we were talking about. But this is a range of luxury EV down to the most budget model. So you gotta see here what we are missing out on.

[Donald Trump]

What is up, guys? Right behind me is a car from.

[Stephen A. Smith]

China.

[Sagar]

Which is a big deal because.

[Stephen A. Smith]

There'S currently no Chinese manufacturers in America.

[Donald Trump]

Which is kind of a shame because this car is really cool.

[Stephen A. Smith]

So obviously you can use your Key.

[Donald Trump]

Or you can leave your key at home and use nfc. This car is a plug in hybrid.

[Sagar]

And on just the battery it can.

[Donald Trump]

Do about 60 miles, which is more than any plug in hybrid in America.

[Sagar]

And on a full charge and a full tank of gas it can do.

[Donald Trump]

Well over 650 miles.

[Krystal]

I push the button on the side of my seat that'll fold down my armrest.

[Sagar]

My seats are heated, ventilated and massaging.

[Stephen A. Smith]

I have an area right down here for my phone, have built in sunscreen shades. If I push this button, my cup holder comes out and I can do this.

[Donald Trump]

I'm 6ft tall for reference. You can be 7ft tall and still lounge back here. But what if I want to watch a movie? A TV can't fold up into this.

[Sagar]

Small space, but a projector can.

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, this is pretty sweet. You also get a built in fridge.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Behind me is what $8,400 can get you in China.

[Donald Trump]

This is the Wuling Bingo.

[Sagar]

It's a tiny four door EV.

[Donald Trump]

It starts at $8,400 but, but even.

[Sagar]

Fully loaded it's only $12,000.

[Donald Trump]

You get full LED lights, these tiny.

[Sagar]

Cute wheels and it can do 250.

[Donald Trump]

Miles on a full charge.

[Sagar]

You also get a lot of space in the trunk. You guys see what I'm talking about? I mean look, let's be honest, these cars are sick. There's other ones, not even byd, I can't pronounce them, but the self driving tech, the lounge and they retail for like $60,000. There are several like Japanese similarities, not EVs per se, but Lexus and Toyota models that are only available in Japan, but they're not sending over here. But I wanted people to understand this because the rest of the globe has access to BYD and they like it. And this is one of the most extraordinary differences now because Tesla obviously is probably the most successful, you know, auto startup of all time in the United States. It is currently the crown jewel of the American EV industry. Obviously Elon and all of that removed, it's one of the top sellers of cars in almost every state in the United States. I believe The Tesla Model 3 or the Model Y was one of the top sellers in the state of California. We've done a lot of bets through the IRA industrial policy on this, saying oh, we're gonna try and compete. But the truth is it's like we are getting our asses kicked at a very structural level. You can see here clearly how even just four years ago that the United States and China were roughly tied in terms of the car exports to the rest of the world. Well, in the last four years they've gone stratospheric and now they have more cars exported to the rest of the world than Japan, Mexico, Germany, South Korea and the United States. So there has been a massive shift in the way that Chinese car exports have become a central part of their ability to trade with the rest of the world. And this goes to the central heart of the problem between the U.S. economy and the Chinese economy. They, they build shit and they do it well. Their government policy is all organized around finding people like the BYD CEO and being like, what do you need? You need a supply chain, we'll build it for you. Oh, you need expedited approval and market share and all of this industrial capacity done. And five, 10 years ago, or actually even 20 years ago, a lot of people didn't believe Charlie Munger, our famous investor. He said that the BYD CEO is one of the smartest people who we ever met in his entire life and that if he could have bet more on the company that he would have. I listened to the last interview that he ever gave with acquired. Highly recommend it if you can. But just to give people an example of how they back their critical entrepreneurs who make stuff in the physical world. And the payoff on their technology is that by getting 10, 15 years ahead of us, they are now exponentially in just four years topping the United States, even Japan in terms of the number of net exports. Without export control, it's over. It's over in terms of electric vehicles. Now maybe we can catch up. You gotta buy us 10, 15 years. But we don't control the European Union, we don't control the export laws of a huge number of US allies. And what is the most revealed preference of all time? Across the world, consumers want what good products at cheap and if you give them the option, they're gonna buy it. So this is an existential problem that we have and their ability to compete, to offer full self driving for free on a $10,000 car. In the US we buy a Tesla, you want full self driving, you either pay up to $100 a month or 8,000 bucks upfront, 8,000 bucks for the software, which is roughly what, 20% less than the price of the car in China. So that's what we're dealing with here. Now obviously it's a tiny little hatchback, but still, I mean, what's a Toyota Camry go for these days? 20, what probably $30,000. I'm guessing here, I'll look it up while you react.

[Krystal]

Well, I was gonna say a part of why they have so many exports of their vehicles is there's been a huge shift which has been incentivized by the government in China towards electric vehicles and plug in hybrids. So half of the new vehicles bought in China now are either EVs or they're plug in hybrids. So now they have all of these traditional gas powered vehicles that don't really Chinese consumers no longer really want. And so that's a lot of what is being offloaded into Europe and other places around the world and has been very popular in the Middle east, very popular in Latin America because they're so cost efficient. But I think the piece about the differences between the economies is really important because they did 15 years ago they identified that a particular Chinese premier who identified EVs as one of their highest priorities and they invested a lot of money into it. And they, you know, also this guy. This actually does touch on the USAID discussion as well, because China's Belt and Road Initiative, part of their effort of projecting soft power and building goodwill around the world, was about establishing these supply chains specifically for EV batteries. And they have done a tremendous job in locking up a lot of those mineral resources. Usaid as Senator Chris was it? Chris Murphy, I think that kind of let the cat on the bag about what USAID is actually about. Like one of the things that he name checked was securing rare earth minerals around the world. And he's right about that. I mean, that is part of the goal of usaid. So, you know, for example, the HIV program that PEPFAR that has been in place since the George W. Bush administration, one of the countries where it has been incredibly important and been a genuine lifeline for people is Zambia. Well, Zambia had a huge problem with HIV and aids. It's in a much better place now because of the investments that we made there. But also Zambia happens to have a lot of mines of things like cobalt. And we have invested a lot of money and been able to have those partnerships in Zambia of securing those rare earth materials, as Chris Murphy said, in part because of those more sort of like humanitarian investments that we made in the country. So when we talk about just to give. This is like a real world example of when we say soft power projection, I know that can sound very abstract. That's the sort of thing that we're talking about. And that's what China has really accomplished with their Belt and Road initiative very, very effectively. But because they have been so much more intentional about their industrial policy and really got. While we were still in full on neoliberal mode and industrial policy was like. And tariffs were like a dirty word. They were planning for what the industries of the future would be and where they wanted to lead. And now with byd, we see the way that that has really paid off for them.

[Sagar]

It's shocking. I mean, 8 to 9% of new car sales in the European Union as of early 2024, according to Claude, are made in China. 8 to 9%. This is after a 39% increase from just the year 2023. So in a four year period, they are gobbling up European car market share. And like I said, I mean their ability to compete in the supply chain. Compare those BYD vehicles to a Rivian look. No offense, I think Rivians look cool. They cost like $80,000 and they go like 200 miles. And if you get into.

[Krystal]

I think they look dumb personally.

[Sagar]

Really. I think I like the look of them.

[Krystal]

You have more of an affinity for these like futuristic things.

[Sagar]

I do.

[Krystal]

I'm not a fan. The cybertruck I think is the ugly.

[Sagar]

I like both. I like futuristic stuff. I really love retro stuff. So stuff like a Ford Bronco.

[Krystal]

Yeah, those are cool. That I'm down with.

[Sagar]

But yeah, I mean Rivian, fine. It's a hot selling car. People really like them. But they're paying 80,000 bucks for it. Okay. In China, if you pay $80,000 for an EV, it's gonna be like that projector car. It's gonna have two recliners in the backseat and a nice little tray where you can eat and a refrigerator built in chopsticks. If you want a car like that here in America, you're gonna pay 200 grand and you probably still won't even be able to. You still won't even get half of the features that are inside of it. That's the stakes of what we're talking about. So I'm worried. I don't see any indication that we're gonna get our act together. One thing the Chinese do, which I think is amazing is they have these gas generator EVs which is just a plug in hybrid or kind of equivalent where they have an 800 mile range where you have a gas generator on top of an EV battery that has a 300 miles. I mean that would be incredibly useful. It basically makes it so that you could have hybrid systems where you can fill gas and a supercharger network. Stuff like that doesn't even exist here. You know our plug in what's the best plug in hybrid in America? I'm trying to think probably a Toyota RAV4 if I had to guess. In terms of affordability, I don't think that thing goes more than like 40 miles on a range. So just think about the difference that we have. In terms of what. And we pay more than their cars, not to mention insurance and all this other bullshit.

[Krystal]

Well, and I mean Trump has made it quite clear that any sort of EV support that was previously provided under the Biden administration, he wants to roll back. I know they've specifically stripped the funding from the program to build out the charger network, which obviously makes it much more feasible for regular people to be able to have EVs and also helps to provide a market for domestic EV producers. So it's the opposite of a priority from the Trump administration. So I don't see any indication why we would catch up at this point.

[Sagar]

Honestly, maybe it's the right thing to do because, like, why should we even compete at this point? It's like, let's just buy gas vehicles. And it's like, that's all we're really good at. We pump a lot of gas. Because they have so clearly cleaned the, they have so clearly gotten ahead on this that without direct investment now, we wouldn't even be able to compete for a decade. I still just can't get over that chart of the four year period of their ability to export. It's insane. So look, I've said it before, people think I hate China or it's like, no, I respect them. In terms of my criticism of America, it's that we don't even come close in so many areas of their ability to think strategically, to think long term, to develop an industry if they want to. You know, even the deep seek idea is what is, let's do the same thing for cheaper. You know, you can't help but respect a lot of competition, even if it makes you look foolish.

[Krystal]

I mean, I also think it was so, and maybe this is a sort of overemphasized part of the deep seq story, but the fact that the Chinese government was like, we don't want our best and brightest going into the financial sector. We don't want them to just be like financial speculators. Oh, and by the way, they're like worse, not crypto. We're not doing that shit. Well, we're not doing that shit.

[Sagar]

That's the Indians too. They also hate crypto.

[Krystal]

They're smart. I mean, because, yeah, we're funneling some of our brightest talent into these just like brazen Ponzi schemes. Crypto and financial engineering on Wall street is like the more refined version of that. And we're like, you know, they were like, we're not really interested in doing that. We're going to cut the salaries for financial type jobs and push our best and brightest graduates into research and technology, whether it's AI or whether, whether it's ev, battery development, et cetera. And that also is an important component of this is like, where do your best minds, your best technical minds, where do they go? And in the U.S. oftentimes, McKinsey, hey, McKinsey, it's Wall street, it's Goldman. Yeah, absolutely.

[Stephen A. Smith]

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[Donald Trump]

Would be like to have supervision, enhanced hearing, extraordinary reflexes to be, dare we say, superhuman? Well, Roku's new Pro Series TV can't do any of that for you. But with a 4K screen, side firing speakers and a blazing fast refresh rate, it'll sure feel like it. Elevate your entertainment using all your favorite apps like Iheart and play all your music, radio and podcasts. With the new Roku Pro series, your senses aren't better.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Your TV is the New Year's here. It's the perfect time to refresh those household essentials and score some cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive. From toothpaste to dish soap, chances are you've got Colgate Palmolive products on your shopping list and in your house. Right now we're talking brands like Colgate Soft Soap, Palmolive, Irish Spring, Fabuloso, and Tom's of Maine. And right now you can get up to a $10 digital Visa prepaid card when you buy up to $30 of Colgate Palmolive products. Here's how it Spend $20 on their products. Get $5, spend $30. Get a $10 reward. All you do is shine. Shop your favorite brands, snap a pic of your receipt and upload it to cprewards.com it's so easy. That's cprewards.com so grab what you need or maybe try something new and get rewarded just for doing your usual shopping. And start your year fresh by earning cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive rewards available while supplies Last, limit supply us only 1125 through 331 25. For full terms and conditions, visit cprewards.com.

[Krystal]

You know who's gonna fix these problems? Sagar.

[Sagar]

Who?

[Krystal]

President Stephen A. Smith. Honestly, you could do worse. You could definitely.

[Sagar]

I told you he's against weed. I'm pro.

[Krystal]

Steven.

[Sagar]

Nick.

[Krystal]

Is he really?

[Sagar]

Yeah. His Stay off the Weed is one of the most famous clips.

[Krystal]

Really?

[Sagar]

I don't even know about it. Producer. Yeah, I guess we should have.

[Krystal]

Yeah.

[Sagar]

Thank you, Steven. In any case, preaching against the dangers of the neurotoxin cannabis, sensing a dearth.

[Krystal]

Of talent on the Democratic side, Stephen A. Smith is floating the idea maybe he'll take a run at the presidency the next time around. Let's take a listen to what he's had to say.

[Donald Trump]

I'm trying to help. I don't want to see you get your ass kicked in another election. I don't want to see you lose in the midterms. I don't want to see you lose four years from now in advance with JD Vance or Marco Rubio or somebody being the next president of the United States just because they're opposite you. I want the best, best candidate for the country to win. That cannot happen. That can't happen if you have no voice. And you. I was just trying to make a profound point, and that is that I think the Democratic Party and the state that they find themselves in, I think somebody like me could actually win. I certainly think that I could beat any of those candidates that you put on the screen. I can tell you that right now. I certainly think if I was running up against somebody like you, I would win that race, too. So when you think about the candidates that you possibly go for, run. Why don't you run for some sort of office? I think you'd be great. You'd have my vote. Please answer. Huge Fan, piece of love. First of all, the only office I would ever be interested in is the presidency of the United States. That's it. I wouldn't be interested in being a governor, a mayor, a senator, damn sure not a congressman. I don't want to be1of435. I don't think I would be a very good campaigner because I ain't the greatest in the world at shaking hands and kissing babies. But I know I'd make decisions and I wouldn't hesitate. We gonna do business in the United States. Businesses ain't gonna be scared to open their doors and only let two or three people in at a time, because somebody gonna get robbed. Oh, hell no. Not under my watch.

[Krystal]

So I have consumed a lot of Stephen A. Smith over the past number of years because Kyle loves this guy.

[Sagar]

Really? That's hilarious. Yes.

[Krystal]

Even though his politics are very centrist, leftists are sharing a tweet that he put out years ago where it was like, listen to Bernie Sanders. And he's exactly right about everything. To be like, oh, maybe, maybe. But, I mean, we know his politics are very like, Normie, always hewing to the center. He's real buddy, buddy with Sean Hannity. Loves this, you know, loves him. Loves the, like, the whole mantra of bipartisan sort of norms, et cetera. But he is at least charismatic. He is at least charismatic. He's at least unafraid of, like, he's not afraid of controversy. He's not afraid of actually saying what he thinks and stating it in a clear and unequivocal manner. And I think in terms of putting aside my own political ideological project, I think so much of the discussion, especially after this loss, about, like, how does this issue pull and that issue pull. And maybe they should have said a little bit more about this or said a little bit more about that based on the polling, et cetera, et cetera. I really think one of the core issues for Democrats is just a lack of someone who is compelling, who will say something brash, defend it, be unafraid, not be shrinking violet and running from every controversy. Who could certainly go on any podcast, Stephen A. Smith could, and make his case and be comfortable and be likable and all those sorts of things. Like, if Democrats wanna win again, they do need to look for a character who is like Stephen A. Smith. And just in terms of winning again, not in terms of what I wanna see ideologically happen, just in terms of winning. That is very much the direction that they need to pursue, more so than any of the like Poll tested, adjusting themselves on this issue or that issue, etc.

[Sagar]

Yeah, it gets to a vibe question and I think that's objectively true. It's like willingness to fight. Remember what was the top word that people associated with the first weeks of the Trump administration? Energetic. Right. That's a real part of it. I mean, people have made fun before. But I've talked about how so much of the Kennedy presidency was just described by Vigor Viga, as they used to say at the time, as people were just amazed after you had the 60 year old president Eisenhower who was like golfing all the time, and this like 40 year old young guy who turned out to be on meth who is currently, you know, he's just everywhere. He's always appeared young and vibrant, you know, in front of the camera. And that's really appealing to a lot of people. And that gets to the vibe of Donald Trump. I mean, there is something genuinely astounding about Trump in a certain way, where you have a nearly 80 year old man who sleeps four hours a night, impervious to the shittiest diet that would put most people in the hospital. And it's like at a certain way, he is indestructible. Something that you read a lot about in every presidential biography is some version of. They were just built different. And I think what Stephen A. Smith has, similarly with Trump and others, is what does this guy obviously love? He's got plenty of money, all of this other stuff. He likes attention, he enjoys the game. And so that there's inside all these politicians to give up all your time with your family and all the bullshit that comes with this. You need a black hole inside of your chest that is unfilled, that never ends, except where you only feel alive in the moments when you're in the midst of a controversy. I just googled it. Apparently there's something going on with Serena Williams. Please don't even try and explain it to me. But that's the top headlines like Stephen A. Smith said he would divorce Serena Williams over appearing in the Kendrick Lamar halftime show. And it's everywhere. And you and I both know he feeds off of that. Trump is very similar for that. And so, yeah, I think obviously he's built a huge career. He's a household name. I previously floated people like the Rock and others. This is why, because this is part of the Trump strategy. I still think McConaughey should have run for governor of Texas. I think he would win, I really do. But these guys, they also see what it will cost eventually, he says he's not interested in anything but president, so maybe he should run. I think we do okay.

[Krystal]

He knows he understands the attention economy and he's not afraid of it. And that puts him leagues ahead of so many of the Democratic contenders that you could talk about. He has made a few interesting political comments over the years. Let's take a listen to. I know one of these things is most recently he came out and criticized Trump on Gaza and Palestine.

[Sagar]

Yes, that's right.

[Krystal]

Which was. That, to me was a signal because most people who aren't political, who haven't like, it's a very uncomfortable topic for people because they feel like. And they've been made to feel, oh, I don't understand all the guys, it must be really complicated. I'm just gonna stay out of it. And they have a sense that it is such a hot button issue with tripwires all over the place, that no matter what you say, someone is gonna absolutely hate you for it. And that is 100% the case. But he's unafraid of just going ahead and jumping in and saying what he thinks on the issue. So I think we have that. And I think we also have a clip for him talking about trans rights. Let's take a listen to both those.

[Donald Trump]

It hits me because, and I've often said this to a lot of people, I've said this to black folks, I've said this to folks, whether you're heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, transgender, I don't care. You know what I've said? Oftentimes when you're talking about civil rights and civil liberties for every human being out here, that is a fight worth fighting for. I will fight on behalf of the LGBTQ community any day of the week. Just as much as I fight for the black community, just as much as I fight for the heterosexual community. I don't care. Right is right. When it comes to your civil liberties, you realize the real estate property that exists out there, that's what you're going to say. That's what you're going to open your mouth and allude to. It ain't about money. It's about something more than that. They can bring up religion, they can bring up a lot of things. When Trump first administration was in place, what did they do, Move the US Embassy to Jerusalem? They said, this is where it's at. They took sides in a lot of people's eyes. You really, really think that the folks in the Gaza Strip, the Palestinians, are going to support that kind of movement, that they're going to want to be displaced. Egypt and Jordan already said absolutely not. The anticipation is that the entire Arab world will say, absolutely not. What are we doing? I'm not trying to get into this issue to talk about something I really, really don't know about. I'm really addressing this because of the displacement, the potential displacement of over a million people. That's why I'm bringing this up.

[Sagar]

So interesting.

[Krystal]

Yeah. Not afraid to jump in there.

[Sagar]

Obviously, I disagree with the guy on the trans thing, but that is probably the best way you can get yourself to, you know, galaxy brain about why it's good to have trans women or whatever in women's sports. But.

[Krystal]

But I do think the messaging there, his instinct for it of just being like this is civil rights, just like I'll fight for black rights. You know, it's that civil rights framing is actually something that people agree with, even if you put aside, like the specific question of people, of what league people should play in, in terms of sports. But he has an instinct for how to frame this as just like basic civil rights rights. That would be appealing to a lot of norm.

[Sagar]

I could see it work. Yeah, it's probably the best way that you could get there. But I mean, if anything, I think Trump is doing these people a favor and then you don't have to debate it anymore. But if you get yourself on the Gaza thing, I was like, huh, that's an interesting way how you would explain it to a normal person, to a normie, to somebody who has zero, you know, who hasn't really given it much of a thought. But I genuinely, I don't even think it gets to the substance of. Of it. It's just about that approach, the need for attention and others. And that's what Trump ultimately was incredibly successful at. And Stephen A. Smith, I think, from as I understand it. Cause again, I don't watch a lot of sports and I especially don't watch sports commentary. But from what I understand of what he is so good at, it's specifically inviting controversy and like, out of nothing in terms, giving the hot take, not only for the sake of it, but to invite the controversy with his fellow panelists or whatever. And obviously he's been incredibly, tremendously successful. I think he's one of the major draws right. At espn. It's like the only thing that's still keeping them afloat. Obviously, it has pushed a lot of people out. But being divisive, as we learned under Trump, is not necessarily a bad thing.

[Krystal]

He's also funny, which is another thing with some good money. He's just entertaining.

[Sagar]

He was great on Hillary, if you remember. It was sometime in the election. I forget exactly what he was, but he was going after Hillary Clinton, which I enjoyed. So clearly he's got his eye on the. He's got his eye on where things are right now. And yeah, maybe he could be successful. I don't know. I would like to see it. I like to see paradigm shifts. Yeah, exactly. At the very least, it would be fun. I would enjoy it. Hi everyone. Sorry there's some scheduling issues that we ran into with Sora. We're gonna have him on the show on Thursday, so just make sure we're getting the show out on time. We love you. Great counterpoint show for everybody tomorrow and we'll see you later.

[Donald Trump]

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[Stephen A. Smith]

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[Sagar]

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