2/23/26: Tucker Vs Huckabee On Israel, Sachs Flames Trump On Iran And Tariffs

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar Episode: 2/23/26 — "Tucker Vs Huckabee On Israel, Sachs Flames Trump On Iran And Tariffs" Date: February 23, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Breaking Points delivers a fearless, anti-establishment analysis of recent political developments, focusing specifically on:

• Tucker Carlson’s explosive interview with Ambassador Mike Huckabee regarding Israel and the Greater Israel project,
• The prospect of US war with Iran, with sharp critique from Jeffrey Sachs,
• The fallout from the Supreme Court ruling on Trump-era tariffs,
• Broader commentary on political honesty, US foreign policy, and accountability.

Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti blend deep, pointed analysis with their trademark wit, while guest Jeffrey Sachs brings scholarly rigor and outspoken critique of US and Israeli policy.

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Key Segments and Timestamps

• [02:14] Show Overview and Topics
• [10:07] Breaking Down Tucker Carlson vs. Mike Huckabee Interview
• [17:16] Debate: “Right to the Land” – Genetics, Ancestry, and Israel
• [21:23] Jonathan Pollard and Embassy Controversy
• [27:10] IDF vs. US Military: The “Most Moral Army” Debate
• [35:20] Guest Interview: Professor Jeffrey Sachs on Iran, Israel, US Foreign Policy
• [53:29] Supreme Court Strikes Down Trump Tariffs: Sachs on Economic Policy

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Episode Breakdown

1. Show Overview and Opening Commentary

[02:14]

• Krystal and Saagar open by highlighting the critical, independent role of their show.
• Major stories on the docket:
  • Tucker vs. Huckabee on Israel (“Greater Israel” based on biblical scripture)
  • Rising tensions and prospects of war with Iran
  • Live insights from Jeffrey Sachs
  • Analysis of recent cartel violence in Mexico and the grassroots anti–AI data center movement

Saagar:
"We have an amazing show for everybody today."
Krystal:
"The big Tucker Carlson vs. Mike Huckabee interview... has caused huge fallout in the region."

---

2. Tucker Carlson Grills Mike Huckabee on Israel & Greater Israel Project

[10:07]

A. The “Biblical Deed” Argument

[10:31–13:52]

• Tucker Carlson presses Huckabee, the US Ambassador to Israel, on his citing of Genesis to justify Israeli sovereignty over vast swaths of the Middle East.
• Huckabee states:
  "Israel has a right to the entire Middle East... from the Euphrates to the Nile." [10:31]
• Saagar and Krystal dissect the diplomatic backlash, with multiple Middle Eastern countries issuing a rare joint condemnation.
• Krystal notes:
  "People like you and I... were treated like conspiracy theorists for talking about Greater Israel. Is this now US policy?" [14:22]

B. The Implications for US Foreign Policy

• Saagar points out the contradiction:
  "We hear about the irrationality of Iranian religious zealotry, but what do we call this—using biblical scripture to erase international law?" [14:22]
• Both hosts stress the real-world diplomatic and military risks, especially regarding coalition-building against Iran.

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3. Blood, Genes, and 'Right to the Land'

[17:16]

• Carlson raises pointed questions regarding Jewish “right of return” vs. Palestinian indigeneity, pushing Huckabee on why Israelis descended from Eastern Europe are prioritized over locals with genetic ties to the land.

• Huckabee struggles to answer:
  "How do we know that Bibi’s [Netanyahu’s] ancestors ever lived here?" [18:12] Tucker Carlson: "I’m totally unable to process what you’re getting at." [18:50]

• Krystal:
  "My children have more right [per Israeli law] to live there than someone whose family has been there for thousands of years." [19:06]

• Discussion expands to the racist hierarchy within Israeli immigration policies, referencing comments from former Israeli PM Ehud Barak:
  "He preferred people who were new converts in Russia over those we had to take in from these other regions that we look down upon." [20:31]

---

4. Controversy: Jonathan Pollard’s Embassy Visit

[21:23]

• Tucker confronts Huckabee over why he met with convicted US-Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard at the US Embassy.

• Huckabee minimizes, calling it merely a 30-minute meeting, but sidesteps the optics of hosting a convicted traitor.

• Saagar denounces the move:
  "How do you let a spy on US soil and keep your job?" [24:47]

• Krystal:
  "It surprises me he doesn’t have a better defense, given this was the genesis of the war of words between him and Tucker." [24:47]

---

5. The “Most Moral Army” Defense & The Gaza War Comparison

[27:10]

• Carlson asserts:
  "Israel goes to lengths no other country, including ours, goes to in the middle of an urban war... with fewer civilian deaths than any urban war of record—even if you take Hamas’s numbers." [27:10]

• Mike Huckabee:
  "You said you didn’t know how many civilian deaths there were. So how can you say that?" [27:24]

• Saagar calls out the claim as insulting to US service members:
  "He insulted every GWOT veteran when he said the IDF is more humane than the United States military." [27:10]

• Krystal points out: "We didn’t institute a complete and total siege. We didn’t brag about starving people to death. We didn’t make it a policy of mass destroying hospitals, churches, schools." [31:22]

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6. Guest Segment: Professor Jeffrey Sachs

[35:20]

A. On Huckabee’s Comments: A Call for Immediate Resignation

[36:59; 38:43]

• Sachs:
  "Huckabee should resign immediately... He is the quintessential Christian, Zionist biblical fundamentalist who wants to determine American policy by his reading of a biblical passage from 2,500 years ago." [36:59] "If it is our policy [to support Greater Israel], state it, so the American people will know we are led by the most dangerous kind of delusion imaginable." [38:43]

B. Prospects of War with Iran

[39:44]

• Sachs exposes the fallacy behind claims of a looming Iranian nuclear threat: "Iran has said that it does not want a nuclear weapon, and it has said so for decades... Trump, because he is a pawn of Netanyahu, ripped up [the JCPOA]." [39:44-44:15]

• Critiques bipartisan subservience to Israeli interests: "Why has the United States done what Israel has told us to do for 30 years?... That’s a policy of endless war." [44:15]

C. Critique of Tariff Policies & Supreme Court Ruling

[53:29]

• Sachs lauds the Supreme Court decision as significant:
  "The only thing I couldn’t predict is whether the Supreme Court would cave in. But they did a very good job... They owe us $140 billion [in illegally collected tariffs]." [53:58]

• Explains how Trump’s claimed authority to impose tariffs is, again, illegal: "He has maybe five ways to cheat, but he’s cheating again and deepening the mess." [60:25]

• Warns that Americans—not foreigners—are paying: "This was money coming out of your household income... $1,000 per household in this first round of illegal power grab." [61:50]

D. On ‘Economic Statecraft’ and U.S. Sanctions

[51:24; 66:30]

• Sachs calls out US officials boasting about “crushing” the Iranian economy: "Our own Treasury Secretary said... it was America's policy to crush the Iranian economy... and with a smirk says, 'We call this economic statecraft.'" [51:24]

• On attempts to coerce Mexico vis-à-vis Cuba:
  "What Trump is trying to do to bring down Cuba in a regime change operation is illegal, cruel, an act of war." [66:30]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Krystal Ball:
  "This is the humiliation ritual—apparently we have this special country [Israel], but everywhere else the right of conquest applies. That’s the madness through which our policy is flowing." [14:22]

• Saagar Enjeti:
  "How can you, as the ambassador, do an interview where you spark a diplomatic crisis... and keep your job? How can you insult the US military and keep your job?" [29:46]

• Jeffrey Sachs:
  "We have no interest whatsoever in going to war with Iran right now. If there is such a war, it’s because Israel has told the US what to do." [44:15]

• Tucker Carlson (interviewing Huckabee):
  "So God gave that land to his people, the Jews, or he didn’t. You’re saying he did. What does that mean? Does Israel have the right to that land?" [11:31]

• Krystal Ball:
  "Woke does not hold a candle to Zionists in the way they view the world through this hard sectarian lens." [31:22]

• Jeffrey Sachs:
  "Economic statecraft should not mean the suffering of other people. It should not mean a Middle East that's aflame from Libya to Iran." [66:30]

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Analysis & Tone

• The hosts’ tone is sharp, often incredulous, barbed with sarcasm—“humiliation ritual,” “coping,” and “endless cope” recur.
• Jeffrey Sachs brings intellectual gravity, but also direct, unvarnished critique, calling for official resignations and repudiations.
• The episode is outright damning of current US foreign policymaking and its subservience to Israeli interests, accusing both Trump and his administration openly.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This was a high-impact episode that dissected bombshell claims and interviews at the heart of US–Middle East policy debates. The hosts and guest pull no punches, especially on:

• The open acceptance by US officials of biblical justification for expansionist policies
• The real risks and drivers behind talk of war with Iran (blaming US subservience to Israel)
• The economic costs and legality of Trump’s trade maneuvering
• Meaningful, not cosmetic, accountability for officials and systems

If you’re looking for deep, unfiltered analysis that goes past the headlines and mainstream narratives, this episode stands out as one of the most important in the current season.

Transcript

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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alpha novella on soyunbanyo.com hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of the show.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com Good morning everybody. Happy Monday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have? Crystal?

[Krystal Ball]

Indeed we do. Amazing snow day. Lots to cover. We've got the big Tucker Carlson vs. Mike Huckabee interview with Huckabee saying, hey, he's totally on board with the Greater Israel Project based on Biblical Scripture. So that's caused huge fallout in the region. We'll show you a bunch of quite extraordinary clips from that interview with our ambassador to Israel. We also continue to watch whether or not we are headed to war with Iran. There's some new, new reporting on that front. And Jeffrey Sachs is going to join us to break all of that down. We're also taking a look at what's going on in Mexico where there is significant unrest after the killing of a major cartel boss. The drop site news head of the Latin American desk, Jose Luis Granada Ceja, who is fantastic, is going to join us to break that down. We also updates on whatever is going on with tariffs interested to get Saga's insights there as well. And we are going to have the guy who you probably saw part of that viral clip in New Jersey where these successfully blocked a data center from being located. So he is a grassroots organizer and we're going to talk to him about the pushback against AI data centers locating in towns across the country.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Many are calling him an American hero. Many people are calling him an American hero. Thank you to everybody who's been subscribing and supporting the show. BreakingPoints.com we will be doing our AMA, I think tomorrow, by the way, we will be also having live State of the Union coverage. So make sure that you look out for that if you are. If you can't afford it, no worries. Just please hit subscribe to our YouTube channel. And if you're listening to this as a podcast, please share an episode with a friend. It really helps other people find the show. But before we even get to Tucker, we did have to give a quick shout out to Team usa, the men's hockey team. However, their great victory was quickly besmirched by the presence of one Cash Patel. Why are we punishing our great American athletes? Let's go ahead and put this video. It's just too juicy to pass up, Cash. So remember, you know, the Nancy Guthrie investigation is happening. She remains missing. There's all kinds of important. There's all this cartel violence, you know, very, very close to our own southern border. And our FBI director chuggin beers in the locker room with Team usa. He claims he was invited by some of the people that were there. I mean, to be fair, they do look like they're excited to see him. I know that he is a hockey enthusiast and he does play on some rec leagues here in America. But, you know, just reminder, the FBI director did have to take a very expensive private jet to Italy. Now, his spokesperson is saying that it was for official business. It just so happened to align with Team USA and the hockey team. It's been scheduled months in advance. So that's what his spokesperson is saying out there in defense of the FBI director. But I'll let the visual speak for itself. So, yes, congratulations to Team usa, the hockey team of both men and women. But, you know, I feel bad for them for having to pretend to be happy in the presence of our FBI director.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I just thought as we dive into our show here, and keep in mind, we are podcasters, we are not US Government officials, and we seem to be taking more seriously these investigations, the possibility of war and peace than either Cash Patel, who Listen, as a, you know, a former athlete, the part of it that annoyed me the most is him seeming like he like somehow earned this or was part of this victory in any way. It's like, dude, you are the living embodiment of mediocrity. The thing you are most notable for, and this is a bipartisan, truly a unifying and bipartisan sentiment, is being the most incompetent person that anyone has ever seen so humiliating display there. And then we can also take a look here at the the secretary of War, Pete Hegseth, who put out this video over the weekend claiming to have benched, what was it, 3:15 that this is supposedly is.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Okay, 3:15.

[Krystal Ball]

Now immediately the Jim Bro saga jumped on this one and said this is literally not possible. There is, there are some for his weight category, some 220 people ever in the world at any time who've been able to lift this amount of weight. So give us your analysis. You know, from what, what is the Jim Bro community saying about whether or not this was fake?

[Saagar Enjeti]

So Jim Bros say that it is technically possible and it is theoretical. However, there have been multiple public instances. For example, the famous Chris Cuomo of people lift fake ways so you can make up your minds for yourselves. I'm calling for a full audit of the bench press and for all of the people who are currently involved. But more importantly, for our purposes, as we showed you all before, Pete Hegseth, even let's say if it is real, it's like, dude, you're showing off your bench prowess in the middle of preparations for war with Iran. Like, this is not a social club and this is not a game, right? And so here's what you see from our national security officials. And that's why we think, you know, this is one of those, this is important for people to flag as we get into yeah, like you said, podcasters. You got Tucker Carlson actually. I mean, you know, doing a better job and grilling Mike Huckabee, the US Ambassador. It's madness. Like, it's actual madness.

[Krystal Ball]

There's a little thing called the Epstein Files cover up going on cash. More than a little bit involved in that. So rather than, you know, investigating any of the powerful men who could be implicated here in either sex crimes or potential, you know, insider trading, the type of investigations we've seen in numerous other countries, this is what he's spending not only his time, but your tax dollars. Exactly. So enjoy that. Americans enjoy that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And don't forget, you know, his little interview with his girlfriend on the Katie Miller podcast in the middle of a major investigation. Not to mention his little jacket stunt of during the Charlie Kirk and the Valhalla. I mean, who can forget? I'll see you in Valhalla. So, yeah, guess I'm not going to get my Cash Patel Challenge coin after this segment. But yeah, gosh, you know, I won't be able to add it to some of the others I have from Illustrious and actual Warriors. So I apologize, I guess, for not being able to add that to my collection.

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[Krystal Ball]

Do we get to somebody who's actually doing the real work here?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Apparently, let's get to the real work. Let's get to the real work. Tucker Carlson's extraordinary interview with the US Ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee. So many different important sections. We've TR to pull many of them. Perhaps the most important is senior US Government official, US Ambassador to Israel, representative of the Trump administration, saying unequivocally, Israel has a right to the entire Middle East. Let's take a listen.

[Mike Huckabee]

You've appealed to Genesis. Genesis 15 says it's Abram, it's pre Abraham, it's Abram receives from God the news that his descendants will inherit the land. And you tell me, as the, as the theologian, if I'm getting this wrong, but from the Euphrates to the Nile, I think that's right. And that would include basically the entire Middle East. That would be the Levant. So that would be Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon. It would also be big parts of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

[Tucker Carlson]

It would be.

[Mike Huckabee]

I mean, not sure it would go that far.

[Tucker Carlson]

I mean, it would be a big piece of land. But here's the point.

[Mike Huckabee]

It would be a lot of places that are now countries.

[Tucker Carlson]

But this particular area that we're talking about now, Israel, is a land that God gave through Abraham to a people that he chose. It was a people, a place, and a purpose. We can look at it that way. Christian Zionism. I want to go back, because that's where we started on.

[Mike Huckabee]

I'm not going to let you off on this because you have said it three times, that God gave this land to this people. And so it is entirely fair for me, with respect, to ask, what land are you talking about? Because I just read Genesis 15, as I have many times, and that land, I think it says from the Nile to the Euphrates, which is once again basically the entire Middle East. So God gave that land to his people, the Jews, or he didn't. You're saying he did. What does that mean? Does Israel have the right to that land? Because you're appealing to Genesis. You're saying that's the original deed.

[Tucker Carlson]

It would be fine if they took it all.

[Krystal Ball]

Unbelievable.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And you know, the best part, Crystal, is later on, he goes, okay, do the Irish people have a right to Ireland? He's like, there is no right. It's by conquest. And you're like, well, hold on a second here. You know, what are we talking about? By the way, this has sparked a full blown diplomatic crisis. Let's go ahead and put a two up there on the screen, just so you all see the map of Greater Israel. And part of the project, if you will, and you can see exactly what he's talking about, including vast swaths of Saudi Arab Arabia. And, you know, you even had a huge diplomatic statement. You know, congratulations. Only Mike Huckabee could unite the entire Middle East. Many of these countries, you hate each other. They hate each other with the fire of a thousand suns. And yet they all had to come together to issue a big diplomatic statement. Let's go and put this up here on the screen. They say the ministries of all of these different countries, I'm going to read them. Jordan, uae, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, Indonesia, Qatar, Lebanon, Kuwait, Pakistan, Bahrain, Oman, Palestine and Syria, plus the oic, the Arab League and the Gulf states, all say they unequivocally condemn the Greater Israel. Endorsement there of the ambassador, Mike Huckabee. This is the humiliation ritual is that we have this special country. It has a right to exist because of Genesis. If you're Ireland, screw you. It's about your right to conquest. It's the only country in the whole world apparently, where the right of conquest does not apply. And that's the madness through which our policy is currently flowing. And I actually think that the next one on genetics makes it even crazier. Crystal.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I mean, just to pause on this one because, Sagar, people like you and I who have been talking about the Greater Israel Project and saying, hey, guys, look at the number of countries that they're bombing. Look at the maps that they put. Look at what they talk, listen to the settlers because they're the ones who will say it outright. They're serious about this thing. Okay? We were treated like conspiracy theorists, anti Semites, conspiracy theorists, et cetera. This is the U.S. ambassador to Israel. Is this U.S. policy?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

Is this what our policy is? Because that seems like an important question to ask and know the answer to. And then the other thing I have to pause on here, as we're potentially heading into war with Iran. You know, one of the things that we hear all about the Iranians is they're so irrational because they're these religious zealots and they're this, you know, theocratic authoritarian regime. And so, you know, they can't be reasoned with because they're irrational because of these, you know, with this extreme religious religiosity that they rule the country with. Like, what the is this? I mean, what do you call this we're using biblical scripture to erase international laws, certainly to erase the borders of nation states. I thought this was an administration that cared an awful lot about borders. Turns out when it comes to Israel's ability to invade and, you know, brutally take over whatever areas they feel like, that's no problem whatsoever. So extraordinary and very significant moment which again has major spillover effects as look, these countries, they're genuinely pissed off right in the region for understandable reasons. And it may end up that this comment from Huckabee helps to forestall war with Iran because we need a bunch of these countries cooperation for, you know, for launching attacks, for defense, a bunch of bases located in the region, et cetera. And so if you have them pissed off ahead of this action, you know, you're not going to get the level of cooperation that perhaps you would need for the, the grand scale that Trump is, is potentially planning. Now, I'm not going to like, place all my hopes in that bucket, but certainly like a truly significant development that the Iranians, by the way, are already talking about mentioning to say, look, see this is that it's the Epstein class driving us towards war. The Greater Israel project is real. Like, come on, Arab states, you really want to be part of this coalition? Is this what you've signed on for?

[Saagar Enjeti]

I wouldn't be surprised if they still did sign on for it, considering their own humiliation ritual. But it is instructive and illustrate illustrative of the current relationship and the sure, you know, psychopathy of the people who are in charge. This next one on genetics is equally revealing. It is an entire challenge about who has the right to the land based on their blood. And you know, Mike Huckabee seems completely unable to grapple with, let's say Eastern European, you know, Eastern European or descendants who are living in Israel versus Palestinian people who have been present on the land for some thousands of years and whether or not they have rights to exist on that land by their logic. Now, again, this is their internal logic about blood and soil inside the country of Israel. But here's Mike Huckabee literally speechless on the question regarding Bibi Netanyahu and others. Let's take a listen.

[Mike Huckabee]

Dodging a very obvious question, which is where does this right come from? And the reason it's meaningful is because there are a lot of people in the territory that Israel controls today, particularly in the west bank, who through genetic testing, we can know their families have been here for thousands of years. We don't know whether they practiced Judaism, whether they were Samaritans pre Islam. We don't know that. A lot of them we know, have been Christians for 2,000 years. They have less of a right to the land than someone whose ancestors. The only thing we know about them is they lived in Latvia or Poland. They're Eastern European. How does that work?

[Tucker Carlson]

They're Jewish.

[Mike Huckabee]

By what definition?

[Tucker Carlson]

They're Jewish by their.

[Mike Huckabee]

But how do we know they have any connection?

[Tucker Carlson]

They're Jewish by their faith. They're Jewish by the connection to the language. Jewish by the connection to the Torah.

[Mike Huckabee]

But how do we know that Bibi, specifically Bibi's ancestors ever lived here? How do we know that?

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm not sure if I understand your question.

[Mike Huckabee]

How do we know if the Prime Minister of Israel's ancestors ever lived?

[Tucker Carlson]

Maybe I could ask you, how do we know they didn't? I mean, there's.

[Mike Huckabee]

Well, it's on the basis of the claim that they did that all kinds of things happen. People are displaced. There's a money flow. I mean, it's a big question. A lot hangs on this. It's not some theoretical thing like, ooh, did my grandparents do this or do that? It's like, no, no, we have a right to be here because my ancestors were here. Okay, how do we know they were here?

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm totally unable to process what you're trying to get at.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think I know what he was trying to get out there a little

[Krystal Ball]

bit, and I think Mike Huggy knows that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think Misunderstood knows it too.

[Krystal Ball]

He just doesn't want to grapple.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, exactly.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I've said this before. You know, my children's father is Jewish, and they have, you know, more of a right by Israelis views to live there and have the land than people who have lived there for genuinely thousands of years. Now, obviously I'm a leftist. I believe in universal rights. I don't subscribe to this blood and soil view of a nation. But as you said, Sagar, this is their justification.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

They.

[Krystal Ball]

They are claiming these ancestral ties to the region. So it's entirely legitimate to say, okay, well, let's tease this down a little bit because I think most people thinking about, like, you know, somebody who lives in Brooklyn and just going over and like, stealing land from a family that's been there, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of years would say, this is. This is not really fair. This is not really moral. This is not really logical. So completely fair to. To push on that. And especially, you know, Huckabee also talks about how there's not just Jewish people coming from Eastern Europe with that ancestry. There's also people who are indigenous to the region. That is certainly the case. But we also know in this part of what we learned in the Epstein files that there is a deeply racist system even of, you know, amongst different Jewish people. Israel. Go ahead.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Ayud Barak laid it out there. He's like, oh, we don't want the right type of Jew. We want the right type of Jew coming into Israel. We don't want these mis. What did he say, Rahi? Jews coming?

[Krystal Ball]

He said, we did. We had to take the ones from Africa early on, but now we could pick the right type of Jew. And he preferred people who were new converts in Russia who have, you know, then probably zero ties to the land over those, you know, you know, people that we had to take in from these other regions that we look down upon.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So, yeah, pretty disgusting now, I guess, you know, at the very least. Now, turning to our own country, perhaps the most important question. Why did the US ambassador invite convicted spy Jonathan Pollard into the US embassy? Mike Huckabee claims it was a 30 minute meeting that was scheduled just so Pollard could thank Huckabee for being nice to his then deceased wife. But here's the drawdown really, into the logic of inviting Pollard into the embassy in the first place. Let's take a listen.

[Mike Huckabee]

So this was the most profound betrayal of the United States in my lifetime. Why advocate for that guy's release before he serves his full sentence?

[Tucker Carlson]

If that were the case in 2011, it would have been because I had a number of friends that suggested that he had more than served time and he didn't want to live in the US Anymore. He wanted to live in Israel. And. But my association with him, again, I had never met him until I met him in Jerusalem at a hotel. That was the first time I had ever encountered him.

[Mike Huckabee]

Why meet with him in the US Embassy? Your colleagues said they were shocked.

[Tucker Carlson]

They said. Who were the colleagues that said they were shocked?

[Mike Huckabee]

Quoted on background in the New York Times. I think the meeting was in August. This could all be fake. That's why I'm asking you.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, the same New York Times said it was a secret meeting. And I'm telling you there's no such thing as a secret meeting in the US Embassy.

[Mike Huckabee]

Do you see why the US Ambassador hosting a convicted betrayer of his own country, who's encouraging Americans to continue to betray their country would seem shocking?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I would say that it wasn't that. I. You make it sound like I'm hosting a meeting I simply met with him. I meet with people all the time.

[Mike Huckabee]

Some of them just walk in without a.

[Tucker Carlson]

No, they have to have an appointment. Of course they do.

[Mike Huckabee]

Oh, so it is hosting him then, I think.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I don't know if it was hosting, but it was certainly he was able to come to the US Embassy to have a meeting at his request. I did, and frankly, I don't regret it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I don't regret it whether he hosted him or look at this little weasel trying to get out of the fact that he did host. And, you know, at this point, I don't even expect anything more from Mike Huckabee. This is the humiliation ritual of this administration who is tolerating this behavior. They are putting people in charge over at the US Embassy who do not see any issue with literally inviting a convicted spy back on to US soil. And Jonathan Pollard, let's not forget, not just his original crime, which was heinous, and as Tucker pointed out in the interview, passed on information which was then passed on to the Soviet Union. He has since encouraged all Jews in the United States to spy for the state of Israel. He has said publicly that Israel should threaten nuclear weapons against the. Against the United States if we encourage them to do a cease fire. He attacked, by the way, even in terms of MAGA logic, he hates Trump for forcing the first ceasefire on Israel in the early days of the administration. This is who this guy is. It is as clear cut dual loyalty, or, I know, sorry, single loyalty as it gets to this, you know, to this state. And you're inviting this person who you advocated for their release. And even in the beginning, he's like, oh, well, many people said he shouldn't have to serve such a long. Yeah, those people are all bought off by Israel, by the Israel lobby. Real intelligence officials said, you cannot pardon this guy ever. You cannot release him early. You have to send a message that we treat all spies the same. He's the only spy that anybody. Did anybody try to get Alder James out of prison early? No.

[Commercial Announcer 1]

Oh.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Or I'm forgetting the guy from the FBI's name, but yeah, I mean, both of these guys, they rotted and died in prison. Good. And then here with this person, you know, oh, and he gets facilitated to Israel, gets like, special treatment, released from his parole by the Trump administration in the first term, and now this. It's just too much like the humiliation ritual all around here. It. It disgusts me as an American.

[Krystal Ball]

It's kind of amazing to me, too. I mean, Huckabee does not dispute Any of Tucker's characterization of who Pollard is, of what he said, of the fact that he continues to advocate for, you know, Jews in this country to betray this country. He doesn't dispute any of that. He decides that his best defense is to quibble over the terminology of whether or not he hosted him at the embassy. It's like. Or whether it was really technically a secret meeting or not. As if that makes any difference whatsoever to the, the reality of what unfolded here. And, you know, it surprises me that he doesn't have a better defense given the fact that this was actually the spark of the, you know, the sort of like war of words between him and Tucker Carlson. This was really genesis of it. So he surely knew that he was going to be questioned about it. But I guess the answer is there really just isn't a good defense. The best you can do is say, well, I didn't really host him. I mean, yeah, we had a meeting, but I wouldn't call it hosting him. Then it's like, well, you can't just show up at the embassy and get a meeting with him.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, host me, Mr. Ambassador. Let's do it.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

All right, I'll fly tomorrow, Brad.

[Krystal Ball]

So, yeah. And you know, clearly he thinks that his little trick of being like, oh, well, it was the fake New York Times on background, blah, blah, blah, might work. It might do enough to muddy the waters. But Tucker very cleverly is like, okay, well, maybe it's all lie. You could tell me, like, tell me what actually happened. Let's, let's get into. We don't have to take the New York Times word for it. You're sitting right here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So disgusting. Last one. This one. Look, this is a common talking point I hear from the IDF defenders in the United States. It never fails to discuss me more. You can say a lot about the United States military. Hundreds of Americans died to protect Iraqi and Afghanistan lives in the war on terror. Now, we shouldn't have been there in the first place. I want to be clear. We should never have been there. They should never have been put into that position. But once they were, were their lives were on the line. And in many cases, they died to prevent civilian casualties and to try at many times, sometimes, yes, failing, but oftentimes living up to the expectation that we will not conduct war in a certain way. So when I hear this bullshit from senior American officials, every U.S. service member, if you're listening to this, he insulted you, he insulted your command, he insulted every Gwot veteran when he said that the IDF is More humane than the United States military. Let's take a listen.

[Tucker Carlson]

Israel goes to links that no other country, including ours, goes to in the middle of an urban war. And yet Israel ended up with fewer civilian deaths in an urban war than any urban war of record.

[Mike Huckabee]

You said you didn't know how many civilian deaths there were. So how can you say that?

[Tucker Carlson]

If you took Gaza's numbers, Hamas's numbers.

[Mike Huckabee]

You said you would know what the numbers are.

[Tucker Carlson]

We don't.

[Mike Huckabee]

You just told me that. How can you say it's a lower number?

[Tucker Carlson]

But if you took the largest numbers that have been reported out of Gaza by Hamas. Yes, let's assume they're true. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying they are true, but assume they're true. Let's just take them at their word. Then you still have a lower number of civilians killed than in any urban warfare environment in modern history. Fact.

[Mike Huckabee]

Is that a fact?

[Tucker Carlson]

Yes.

[Mike Huckabee]

What are you comparing it to?

[Tucker Carlson]

To any urban warfare.

[Mike Huckabee]

Name one.

[Tucker Carlson]

Iraq. Where are Afghanistan? And you pretended or alleged that somehow I'm not loyal to this and I'm

[Mike Huckabee]

criticizing my own better job than the US Military in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I said, what are the numbers? And you said, I don't know. So on what basis are you making the claim that the IDF in Gaza spared more civilians than the U.S. army and Marine Corps did in Afghanistan and Iraq? Why are you saying that?

[Saagar Enjeti]

That.

[Mike Huckabee]

Like, on what basis are you saying that?

[Tucker Carlson]

From the conversations that I've had with the people who fought there. And I don't have the exact numbers for you.

[Krystal Ball]

Imagine making that claim and then not even having some numbers to.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You didn't have the numbers. Look, you know, Tucker, if you watch the interview, I actually recommend you watch the entire segment because it's not just the interview. He does a good preamble. First of all, he dispels that myth about the detention. It. It was an actual detention. Attention, if you listen. And they haven't even disputed, they were asking the producers where they work, who they work with, who they text. They took their passport, they're menacing them. I mean, this was serious. It was an actual, like, intelligence gathering operation. And remember, none of that is disputed currently by IDF authorities. They're saying, yeah, it's routine. We always harass international journalists. Remember that. So the description, not only of the interview itself, but he said, his main takeaway, this man is not working for the United States rights. He was like, when I interviewed this person, he is controlled. Every answer was sensitive. And he seemed to be working on behalf of the Israeli government. I don't think that you could come away with a different conclusion. And the only conclusion is, if that's the case, what does that say about our government, about the people that are supposed to serve us? I mean, again, I want to say, how can you let a spy on U.S. soil and keep your job? It's insane. How can you, as the ambassador, do an interview where you spark a diplomatic crisis, all of these Middle Eastern countries, and keep your job? How can you insult the United States military and keep your. It's like, over and over and over again, you are working on behalf of this foreign country. It's like you are a PR agent for this foreign country. And his tweets after have just been absolutely batshit crazy. Like, let's go and put some of these on the screen, guys. We have the vo. Like, he's tweeted, like, dozens of times about Laura Loomer.

[Krystal Ball]

Endlessly coping. It's just endless cope on the time. Which tells you how he knows that this interview went for him. Because if you have one side in the interview that's having to just, like, endlessly cope and put on this statement and that statement amplify this person or that person who said something positive about their side of the interview, you know, they're trying to overcome something that went very poorly for them.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Can we talk about the Olympics? You know, we talked about the Olympics. He, you know, is making the Jewish ancestry of one of the guys who scores the goal in Team USA's game. He goes, what? The guy scoring goal for first USA gold medal is a Jew. Oh, my. I'm sure the Jew haters will say Mossad was behind it. I just say, celebrate the incredible victory for USA and be grateful for his love for the USA and his team. Dude, you're the one making it about him being Jewish. I didn't even know he was Jewish. Did anybody know he was Jewish? Nobody even cares if he's Jewish.

[Krystal Ball]

Some of us, us do not have our minds so warped that we are constantly fixated on various identity or sectarian differences. I mean, woke does not hold a candle, right, to Zionists and the way that they, you know, view the world through this hard sectarian lens. And, you know, this whole interview with Huckabee just really underscores the fact that the. The firmest, the most fervent supporters of whatever Israel wants, Israel gets are Christian Zionists. So, you know, for all the people who want to say, like, oh, you're anti Semitic, if you criticize blah Blah, blah. And you know, this is. Israel is directly linked to, to Jewish people and only Jewish people. And that's, you know, if, if you are criticizing Israel, criticizing Jewish people. No, like, look at the actual coalition of supporters here. Right, right. Christian Zionists. Genuinely, if you pull the Jewish population, yes, there's a, you know, significant attachment to Israel, but it is far from lockstep, especially if you look at younger generations. And you know, the last thing I, I do want to say about like the, the most moral army thing is like, I feel like Israelis don't even claim that anymore. It's so ridiculous at this point. Right. Put it put aside. You know, the civilian death ratios are very contested in both places. I think the clearest numbers say it was overwhelmingly civilians who were mass slaughtered in Gaza. But you don't want to believe those numbers. Look, Abu Ghraib was a scandal in the US and the reason it was a scandal is because we actually expected something more from our soldiers, from our military. Whereas in Israel they had protests over the right of IDF soldiers to rape their prisoners. Okay, that is a very clear moral contrast. And I am a vociferous critic of the way we conductor of the wars themselves and the way we conducted ourselves, themselves in those wars. But we didn't institute a complete and total siege. We didn't brag about how we were going to starve people to death if they didn't comply. We didn't do, we didn't destroy routinely. There were hospitals that were destroyed, but we did not make it a policy of mass destroying hospitals, churches, schools, all of civilian infrastructure. Okay? So I don't know. It's incredible to me that he's even still pushing that narrative because I don't even think Israel, I don't even hear Israelis talking about that anymore.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's all just complete nonsense. Okay, we've got Jeffrey Stack standing by. Let's get to it.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Joining us now is Professor Jeffrey Sachs, a great friend of the show to discuss the ongoing situation with Iran. Maybe some tariffs. Sir, thank you so much for joining us again. It's good to see you.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

Great to be with you. Thanks a lot.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, let's kick it off. Unfortunately, we just did a long segment about Ambassador Mike Huckabee. But one of the more consequential answers was on war with Iran. Even though the American people oppose this war and he says that yes, you know, we do live in a democracy and our peon brains, they do matter somewhat, but also policy considerations cannot be conducted by Paul, let's take a listen to that. We'll get your reaction and get into all the details.

[Mike Huckabee]

How much does it matter what Americans think?

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, it matters every bit what Americans think. That's why Americans vote. It's why Americans have the opportunity to have free speech. We want them to have that.

[Mike Huckabee]

Okay, so what percentage of Americans support a war with Iran?

[Tucker Carlson]

I don't know. Do you know? I do.

[Mike Huckabee]

It's, I think it's around. I saw the numbers yesterday. I think it was like 21%.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay.

[Mike Huckabee]

Is that enough to have a war with?

[Tucker Carlson]

Ron, we don't live in a world where you have a poll taken to find out whether our policy should be a particular direction.

[Mike Huckabee]

Because I thought, I thought you just

[Tucker Carlson]

said that direct the most. No, we care deeply about it. But on the other hand, do we make the decisions of foreign policy and even domestic policy based on we carefully about it?

[Mike Huckabee]

What? Sense.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Sense. So we don't actually care about it, Professor. So our very own interests and thoughts on the matter don't appear in our own government. Just give us your general reaction here to the ambassador, potential now war with Iran and the destabilization to our World order.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

Well, in general, Huckabee should resign immediately. Not for the segment that you played, but for the segment that if Israel takes over much of the Middle east, east, that's just fine. The United States government should immediately repudiate what he said. I think that every Arab nation in the Middle east that has been subject to Israeli US war since Netanyahu came to office in the mid-1990s should call in the US ambassador immediately and ask if this is US policy. By the way, it may well be US policy because US policy is dictated by the Zionist lobby. And this is not an outrageous statement. This is a literal statement. This is. And Huckabee, by the way, is a core part of that lobby. He is the quintessential Christian, Zionist biblical fundamentalist who wants to determine American policy not by what Americans think think, not by international law, not by American security, but by his reading of a biblical passage from 2,500 years ago. The man needs to leave his job immediately. He's a disgrace. But worse than that, what he said needs to be repudiated by the United States government immediately. Is that our policy? If it is our policy, state it so then the American people will know that we are led by the most dangerous kind of delusion imaginable. If that is not our policy, stated that it is not our policy.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's go ahead and put the latest at New York Times reporting up here on the screen about whether or not we are headed to war with Iran. Their attempt to divine the. The latest thinking from Trump. The headline here, Trump considers targeted strike against Iran followed by a larger attack. So I guess we're in for, for two wars instead of one. Now, they say here President Trump has told advisors if diplomacy or any initial targeted US Attack does not lead Iran to give in to his demands that it give up its nuclear program, he'll consider a much bigger attack in coming months intended to drive that country's leaders from power. People briefed on internal administration deliberations said. In addition, in this article, they lay out one potential proposal to allow Iran to have some limited enrichment program for purposes of research alone. Alone. And they're sort of holding this out, like maybe that would be face saving for both the Iranians and the Americans. You know, what is your sense of how real this diplomacy is and how likely we are to be headed back into war with Iran again?

[Jeffrey Sachs]

This is like being in a delusional dream world. Iran has said that it does not want a nuclear weapon, and it has said so for decades. And it is negotiated in that point for decades. Decades. And everybody watching should appreciate that. An agreement was reached in 2015 called the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, the JCPOA, which was reached in 2015 and unanimously adopted by the United Nations Security Council. It's an agreement of the P5, the permanent five members of the Security Council, the United States, Britain, France, Advance, Russia and China, plus Germany, in which the International Atomic Agency would rigorously monitor any activities of Iran's nuclear program to ensure that there was no nuclear weapons program. Exactly what Iran has said, that it is its policy and which agreed to rigorous monitoring. Now, what happened? Well, Trump, because he is a pawn of Netanyahu, ripped it up. When he came into office. Trump did the bidding of the Israeli government. Why did the Israeli government want this ripped up? Because this has never been about nuclear weapons. This has been about Israel's regional hegemony, Germany in the Middle East. Israel wants to topple the Iranian regime. Period. It has said so. This is not a mystery. This is not my claim. This is Israeli policy repeated year in, year out. The whole idea that Trump is negotiating to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, duh, that was negotiated. Trump ripped it up. The Iranians have come back every year to say, we don't want a nuclear weapon. We want negotiations. The United States does not accept yes for an answer because it works for the government of Israel. This is the point. Why does it work for the government of Israel? It's a little hard to understand. Maybe because it's of Mike Huckleby's parishioners, because of people who read the Bible and say, okay, that's our foreign policy. That's possible. It may be because of what's in the Epstein files that haven't been released. It may be blackmail, it may be corruption, it may be many other things, but it is not about America's interests. We have no interest whatsoever in going to a war with Iran right now, if there is such a war. It's a war because Israel has told the United States what to do. And that raises a question. Question. Why has the United States done what Israel has told the United States to do for 30 years? And I don't just mean about Iran, I mean across the Middle East. Why did the United States bomb Libya in 2011? Why did Obama make a presidential finding that the CIA should topple Bashar al Assad in 2012? Operation Timber Sickle. Why did the United States follow Netanyahu's lead to attack and invade Iraq in 2003? Not on wrong premises, but on false pretenses because Israel has had the policy that the United States should clear the way of any government in the Middle east that opposes Israel's hegemony. Germany. Is that our policy? It should not be our policy. That's a policy of endless war. That's a policy that has cost Americans $7 trillion in wars that never had to take place. And that's the policy that is pushing us to war with Iran right now. Why do you think Bibi Netanyahu showed up again in the White House just a few days ago? He had to make sure, sure that his vassal, Mr. Trump, would do the right thing. In, in, in Bibi's terms, that is. By that I mean the wrong thing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Professor, I do want to get your reaction. You're just talking about false pretenses. We have a new false pretense. We have the supposed negotiator, who I had some initial high hopes for, Steve Witkoff, who has now turned into a complete disappointment, took to the American airwaves and is now claiming that despite Operation Midnight Hammer some seven months ago, where we supposedly wiped out IR capabilities, they are now close to, quote, an industrial grade bomb. Matt, can we go ahead and cue that one up? Still trying to figure out what industrial grade bomb means. Let's take a listen. We have red lines here from the US how about over with Iran?

[Jeffrey Sachs]

The President asked me that this morning

[Tucker Carlson]

and he's, I don't want to use the word frustrated. It's almost because he understands he's got plenty of alternatives.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

But it's curious, he's curious as to

[Saagar Enjeti]

why they haven't, I don't want to use the word capitulated, but why they haven't capitulated.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

Why under this sort of pressure, with

[Tucker Carlson]

the amount of sea power, naval power

[Jeffrey Sachs]

that we have over there, why they

[Tucker Carlson]

haven't come to us and said, we profess that we don't want to be,

[Saagar Enjeti]

we don't want a weapon.

[Tucker Carlson]

So here's what we're prepared to do.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

And yet it's hard to, to sort of get them to that place.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So he's saying they're weeks away from industrial gay bomb and we just are so frustrated. Why won't they capitulate? You know, why refuse to capitulate?

[Jeffrey Sachs]

First of all, they don't want a weapon. They want to negotiate a solution. They want to negotiate a solution with the International Atomic Energy Agency rigorously monitoring what they do. That has been true for 15 years. This is just nincompoops. Honest to God. What do they think they're doing, by the way, I spoke to someone that is extremely knowledgeable, knowledgeable about these negotiations. And there is no expert in the room, in the US Side. Nobody that knows what they're talking about, no nuclear experts, no one that is involved at a level of understanding what this is really about. Now, in terms of substance, what is true is that the bombing last summer did not stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon if it wants one. So the all of the, the bravado of Trump that, oh, yes, we ended their nuclear program. This is the greatest thing since the history of the world began. This is total Trump BS from beginning to end. That's the world we live in. It's all B.S. yes, morning till night. No, it didn't stop anything. It was a useless attack that made the world a lot more dangerous. Could Iran get a nuclear weapon? Yes, it could get a nuclear weapon if it wanted one. Could it be stopped from getting a nuclear weapon? Yes, under its own volition. It doesn't want one. And it has said, we agree to all of the monitors monitoring, we agree to the international controls. Trump is the one that ripped up that agreement. This is so confused, so upside down completely. It's hard to even begin to understand any of this. But I just credit Tucker Carlson with exposing one piece of this. How utterly bizarre the politics are at the top of the US Government. Completely bizarre, delusional. So that's where we are.

[Krystal Ball]

Do you think those comments from, from Huckabee saying, yeah, I'm fine, I'm good. If Israel pursues, you know, Greater Israel based on biblical prophecy or biblical promises,

[Jeffrey Sachs]

as he reads it.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, yes, exactly as he reads it. Do you think that has any significant impact on some of the US Allies in the region who would be, you know, implicated by those comments?

[Jeffrey Sachs]

It's sad. The Arab world has been beaten down so long and so hard for centuries, by the way, first by the Ottomans, then by the British, then by the Americans, then by the Israelis. So they are so beaten down that when they see something like this, they complain, but they should do more than the complaints. Complained. It's actually a little bit sad if you, if the lead American representative in Israel says, yeah, if Israel wants to take over most of the Middle east, that's good with us. That's not a matter for complaint. That is a matter for an emergency UN Security Council session. That is a matter for this person to be relieved of duty immediately. That is a matter for the United States government to repudiate those words. That's a matter for the Israeli government To repudiate those words, though, unfortunately, there are people in the Israeli government that have that insane grandiosity that's going to get us all into, in, into World War III if we continue on this path.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So, sir, I do want to ask you.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

So just to answer your question, Crystal, they're very concerned, but they're so much under the hammer all the time. They're really concerned about a war starting tomorrow. They're really concerned about any kind of retribution. This is the sad point. It makes no sense in terms of security, peace, honesty, what either side is saying. Just one more point. Marco Rubio said about 10 days ago, well, we don't want to just have negotiations about nuclear weapons. This has to be about a whole range of issues.

[Mike Huckabee]

Issues.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

And the Iranian Foreign Minister Aragchi gave a speech a couple of days later in Doha, a very fine speech, by the way, that said, yes, we could have regional peace, and here's a path to regional peace. And he laid out the two state solution. He laid out mutual security in the region. The US didn't pick it up at all. The mainstream media in the United States didn't even cover it. I went to the New York Times, reporters are going to mention the speaker speech. It was after Rubio said we should have this. Then the Iranians responded. As far as I know, they never even wrote about the speech. So we're in a kind of game. Bizarre, delusional, dangerous world with the Mike Huckabees. Oh my God, this is the world we're in.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And professor, that's what I was really going to ask you about is this. You know, they, they, like you're talking about the New York Times, they present it as normal. Normal. We'll do a small attack followed by a larger attack. If it doesn't work. And you're like, wait, what? So you get two wars for the price of one. A small attack. And if it doesn't work, what does work even mean? Like that they're going to agree to what they've already agreed to. And they continue to say that they will. The only thing they don't want to give up is their ballistic missiles for good reason, so that they don't become an Israeli rump state, which is what they want.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

And when they're told, yes, we're going to kill you, we're going to destroy you, we're going to overthrow you, you have to disarm. If you don't want to be killed, destroyed, overthrown, you have to disarm. So then we can kill you. Destro you and overthrow you. Of course, the whole thing is so absurd. And let me add another level of absurdity. The New York Times, which just distinguishes self every day in the propaganda and the falsity of its reporting. I'm sorry to say every day reports about the protests on the streets because of the economic suffering of the Iranian people. People. But they didn't report that. Our own Treasury Secretary Besant on January 20th in Davos in a nonchalant interview with Fox Business, said that it was America's policy to crush the Iranian economy, to destroy the currency, to create a dollar short shortage, to create a shortage of imports so that people would go out onto the streets. And then with a little smirk on his face, he says, we call this economic statecraft. And he says it's going in a very good direction. You'd think someone would ask a question, maybe even write an editorial, is this our statecraft to destroy other economies?

[Tucker Carlson]

Right.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

Especially ones that are saying they want to negotiate with us. And Mr. Witkoff said it's about capitulation. Well, come on. What a world. Sorry. This is so dangerous for us and the American people know it.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, speaking of Scott Bessett, and by the way, I learned from you that the way that he gained his wealth and prominence was from attacking currencies. So he is.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

That's why he's in office job there. He knows nothing about being a Treasury secretary. He's there to destroy the Iranian currency.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, let's go ahead and turn to what's going on here in the US which obviously also has major global implications, which is we got a Supreme Court ruling striking down some of the tariffs authorized under IPA that Trump has been using as a cudgel in various negotiations and threats around the world. World. First of all, just your reaction to the significance of this decision given that Trump is already saying, well, I'm going to use other authorities to try to accomplish the same thing.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

It's very significant because the Supreme Court did not buckle to the stupidity and the bullying that now guides America. When Trump launched the so called reciprocal tariffs, I had two reactions within the first minute. First, that the actual application of some stupid formula by our international trade representative was so primitive, you would not have thought a first year student would come up with something so idiotic. So the incompetence was stunning. But the second point was I said this is illegal. This is ridiculous. He doesn't have the authority as one person person to revamp the American tariff system. That is Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, which says that the right to levy duties and taxes belongs to Congress. That's why we created our country, by the way, in a protest about one person making taxation for the American colonies. It was obvious that what Trump was doing was illegal. Illegal. It was obvious that it was stupid in that it would accomplish nothing. If these people knew anything about international economics, by the way, and our deficit in goods went up in 2025. The employment in manufacturing went down by 83,000 workers in 2025. In other words, even on their narrow terms, whether it was legal or not or not, it was a complete failure. But it was predictably so. The only thing I couldn't predict is whether the Supreme Court would cave in. But they did a very good job and I salute the Chief Justice, John Roberts, who's a classmate of mine to for his his very clear, correct, bold opinion. Bravo. Now, there's another issue Trump took from us illegally. $140 billion. I want my part back. You should want your part back. They can't just say, oh well, isn't that something we're just going to continue? They owe us $140 billion. Illegally taken through a brazen grab of power he stole from us, returned the money.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

iheart20 to that point, sir, the Secretary of the treasury is saying, no, we're not going to return the money. Matt, can we go ahead and queue up D1 so that the professor can listen to Secretary Scott Besson, who you said there, who's like, no, we're not returning. There will be no refunds, and all of this will be litigated in court. Let's a take. Take a listen. Will you refund the roughly $134 billion in revenue taken by these emergency tariffs?

[Jeffrey Sachs]

Well, Dana, that's not the big question. Let's just level set here. What the Supreme Court did was a very narrow reading of the president's authority under the IA tariffs. We have other tariff authorities which have been functioning. Section 232 tariffs, section 301 tariffs. And, and Dana, when you say it's a big question, that's bad framing because the Supreme Court didn't even address that. The Supreme Court remanded it down to a lower court. And, you know, we will follow what they say, but that could be weeks or months when we hear them. So the Supreme Court did not address refunds.

[Krystal Ball]

Sure. They didn't address refunds.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That is clearly going to be up to you, which is why you.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

No, no, no, Dana, it is not up to me. It is up to me.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Not you, not you.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

It is not up to the administration. It is up to the lower court. Let's just be clear on that. He's such a creep. You don't even know where to start. You stole $140 billion. Give it back, Besant, or just leave your job. You're not our Treasury Secretary. You're a thug to bring down the Iranian government. Come on. You stole the money. You did it illegally. It was a brazen grab for power. Take some responsibility, please.

[Krystal Ball]

News let's go ahead and put D4 up on the screen because one of the other questions is like, okay, in the context of all of these threats of very high tariffs using this authority, there are a bunch of countries that did some sort of deal with the, the Trump administration, and now they're wondering what this means for them and those deals, I'm sure they're probably also having some potential buyer's remorse about giving into these threats, given that this authority has now been deemed illegal and unconstitutional. So two questions really for you here. You know, reflect a bit on these countries that did make deals. And then also, how much does this neuter Trump's ability to act like the mob boss? And the, you know, the thug around the world, since these tariffs were one of the things tools in his toolkit for behaving that way.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

Great questions. First of all, the authority that Trump is using right now is also illegal. He's claiming Section 122 of the Trade act, which says that in the context of a balance of payments emergency, that tariffs can be put on for 150 days up to 15%. We have no balance of payments emergency. He's doing it again. This is a brazen abuse of power. This should be understood. This isn't just a technical workaround that, oh, I have five ways to do, do it. He has maybe five ways to cheat, but he's cheating again and he's deepening the mess. So this is the first point. What he's doing is illegal. We have no balance of payments emergency. I taught balance of payments economics at Harvard for 20 years. I can tell you we have no balance of payments emerging agency. So what he's doing is not legal. Now, again, you can't predict what the Supreme Court will do, though we have more hope this time around that they'll again say, you can't do this. But of course, it's deepening the mess, the confusion. Trump keeps stealing our money. This is another point people should understand. I, I think that they do. Intuitively. Trump says that the other countries are paying. This is absurd. This is money coming out of your household income. And it's an average of $1,000 per household that was taken in this first round of illegal power grab. This isn't coming out of foreign countries. This isn't, oh, we're going to find another way to make them pay. This is the American people, people paying for this, not foreigners. And this is demonstrated all over the place in careful analysis because the Americans paid the tax because the foreign exporters to the US didn't cut their prices to keep the price the same. The prices went up. Duh. That's how it works. And so this is Trump stealing from us and Bessant stealing from us and his nonchalance. I don't care. That's a small deal. Yeah, $140 billion may be a small deal for you, but it's not a small deal for the American people and for people that can't pay their bills. Now, as for the other countries, they should say everything stops. Are you kidding? We got bamboozled, we got threatened, we got blustered. As Trump said, he liked how the countries came to kiss his ass. That's a quote. And of course they should Say no. No deals. What deal? You lied to us, you cheated. Your Supreme Court tells you, tells us, you don't have this power. No deal, all on false pretenses, period. So the New York Times agonizing about this. My God, how weird is that?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

Who are these people, honestly?

[Saagar Enjeti]

We're with you, sir. We're with you.

[Krystal Ball]

Sure. You know a few of them?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Wait, I know a few. I often ask some. Sometimes even they ask that question. Can we put D2 up here on the screen? Because I'm curious for your reaction. The only statutory authority they have now is about this 15% global tariff, which will be in.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

That's what I was just mentioning.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right, of course, but, and you know, you've talked there about the illegality, but how are just the other countries you think about, Japan, South Korea, Britain, the eu, they came here, they made these fake promises to Spain, spend 5,000 trillion dollars and invest, and none of it will actually come to pass. But now you have this 15% tariff. It was raised from 10. It only has 159 days. I believe that. Sorry, 150 days to be put into place. And yet we could potentially have a 15% global tariff. But how would that even affect the negotiation power? Like, that's my curiosity.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

He has no negotiating power because this is not what he was doing before, which was like a madman throwing, you know, lightning bolts down from Mount Olympus, saying, I punish you, I punish you. I don't like the ad being run in Ontario. I don't like the lawsuit against former President Bolsonaro. I don't like you doing this. He was acting as if he just can punish and crush anyone one he wants. Now, this is completely different. This is not emergency powers that he claimed that he never had. This is about a balance of payments crisis that actually doesn't exist. So he can't bludgeon and, and, and threaten other countries. And the other countries should say, well, excuse me, that was a bad year. You did a lot of bad things to us. You made a lot of threats that you didn't have the power to make. Let's just take a pause. Everything is set aside.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know that it is a significant decision also, too, through Trump's reaction. He was lashing out at the justices, etc and apparently exploded when he, when he learned the news. The last question I had for you is a specific one vis a vis Mexico and Cuba. Actually, you know, this tariff threat was one of the ways that Trump was trying to coerce the Mexican government to, you know, abide by this oil embargo that the US Is imposing on Cuba to, you know, keep them from sending oil to the island, which is deeply suffering now due to our economic warfare against them. Do you think this changes the calculus at all for the the Sheinbaum government?

[Jeffrey Sachs]

I hope that it does. What Trump is trying to do to bring down Cuba in a regime change operation is also extraordinarily illegal and cruel and an act of war. Actually, it's a quarantine around Cuba and it's absolutely unacceptable. And I hope that there is a solution because again, economic statecraft should not mean the suffering of other people. It should not mean a Middle east that's aflame from Libya to Iran. If we had any decency at all, which I'm not sure is a term that can apply to our current administration or our deep state for that matter, we would not be doing the things that we're doing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Wow. Well, we always appreciate your analysis, sir. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

Great to be with you. Hope we do it again soon.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Oh, always.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

Thanks.

[Saagar Enjeti]

All right, thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate it. We should be back in studio tomorrow as long as all the roads, electricity and all of that cooperates. And of course, we're going to have our great State of the Union live stream, so we'll see you all then.

[Jeffrey Sachs]

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[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.