2/24/25: Trump Cabinet Revolt Over Elon Email, Trump Pollster Warns Of Dire Midterm, Trump Pentagon Purge

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar Episode: 2/24/25: Trump Cabinet Revolt Over Elon Email, Trump Pollster Warns Of Dire Midterm, Trump Pentagon Purge Release Date: February 24, 2025

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar delves deep into the tumultuous political landscape surrounding former President Donald Trump and Elon Musk’s escalating influence within the federal government. This episode, released on February 24, 2025, explores a series of unprecedented events, including Musk’s controversial email to federal employees, significant leadership changes within the Pentagon, and the broader implications for the upcoming midterm elections. Below is a comprehensive summary capturing the key discussions, insights, and conclusions presented by hosts Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti.

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1. Elon Musk’s Ultimatum to Federal Employees

Overview: Elon Musk sent a directive to all federal employees, demanding a report of their weekly accomplishments with a stringent deadline. This unprecedented move has sparked resistance across multiple federal agencies.

Key Points:

• The Email: Sent on a Saturday around 3:00 PM, Musk’s email requested federal employees to list approximately five bullet points of their achievements from the past week and CC their managers, with a deadline of the following Monday at 11:59 PM EST. It sternly warned that failure to comply would be interpreted as a resignation.

• Agency Responses:

  • FBI: Led by Kash Patel, the FBI instructed its workforce not to respond to the email, stating, “Please pause any responses. Thank you.” ([07:29] Sagar and Krystal).
  • Department of Defense: Similarly, the Pentagon declined to comply, reinforcing the non-response stance across top agencies.

Notable Quotes:

• Sagar: “This is probably the most explicit example of Elon, Doge, quote, unquote, overreach with pushback.” ([04:54] Sagar and Krystal)
• Kash Patel (Email): “All FBI personnel may have received an email from OPM requesting information... Please pause any responses. Thank you.” ([09:XX] Sagar and Krystal)

Implications:

• Internal Divisions: There is a clear rift between Trump-aligned factions and institutional leaders who prioritize agency autonomy and integrity over Musk’s directives.
• Political Repercussions: This revolt signifies a potential turning point, showcasing that even within the MAGA coalition, there is significant resistance to unilateral decisions imposed by external influencers like Musk.

2. Public Opinion on Trump and Musk/Doge

Overview: Polls reveal a growing disapproval of both Donald Trump’s administration and Elon Musk’s interventions in government affairs, highlighting a shift in public sentiment that could influence upcoming midterm elections.

Key Points:

• Approval Ratings: Trump's approval has plummeted from near 50% to -12 points.

• Musk’s Popularity: Musk’s net favorability rating has fallen below -10 points, indicating widespread dissatisfaction.

• Democratic vs. Republican Views:

  • Democrats: 54% disapprove of Musk’s role in government, viewing his actions as detrimental.
  • Republicans: Although less disapproving, there’s notable discomfort within the party regarding Musk’s overreach.

Notable Quotes:

• Sagar: “The voters are angry with Elon Musk. They're angry with the cuts to the federal government.” ([20:21] Sagar and Krystal)
• Krystal: “Elon Musk is becoming this rallying point for anger on the left.” ([20:38] Sagar and Krystal)

Implications:

• Midterm Dynamics: The backlash against Trump and Musk could energize Democratic voters while causing a lack of enthusiasm among Republican supporters, potentially leading to significant losses for the GOP.
• Polling Cautions: Both hosts caution against over-reliance on current polls due to previous inaccuracies and potential biases in sampling.

3. Pentagon Leadership Purge

Overview: A sweeping removal of top military officials and legal advisors within the Pentagon has raised alarms about the administration’s intentions and respect for military protocol.

Key Points:

• Officials Removed:

  • Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: General Charles C.Q. Brown.
  • Chief of Naval Operations: Admiral Lisa Franchetti.
  • Air Force Vice Chief of Staff: General James Slife.
  • Top JAG Lawyers: The chief lawyers for the Army, Navy, and Air Force were also dismissed.

• Trump’s Announcement: Delivered via Truth Social, Trump praised the outgoing officials while nominating Lt. Gen. Dan Raisin Kane as the new Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, highlighting Kane’s achievements and loyalty.

Notable Quotes:

• Georgetown Law Professor: “Why do you want to get rid of the top lawyers in these various branches of the military? It's what you do when you're planning to break the law.” ([48:15] Ashley Kinetic and Sagar)
• Sagar: “It's consistent with Trump wanting to ensure that those at the top will do whatever he asks, whether lawful or not.” ([56:30] Sagar and Krystal)

Implications:

• Legal and Ethical Concerns: The removal of top JAG lawyers suggests an intention to eliminate legal oversight, potentially allowing unlawful directives to proceed unchecked.
• Military Morale: Such purges can severely impact morale and trust within the armed forces, leading to further fragmentation and inefficiency.
• Political Fallout: This move is likely to be perceived as an attempt to consolidate power and undermine the military’s autonomy, attracting criticism from both domestic and international observers.

4. International Politics: German Elections

Overview: Germany’s recent elections saw the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) securing the second position, influenced by figures like JD Vance and notably, Elon Musk.

Key Points:

• AfD’s Surge: The party’s rise is emblematic of growing populist sentiments and economic discontent within Germany.
• Influence of External Figures: Elon Musk’s prominence and financial support have bolstered the AfD’s standing, reflecting his significant albeit controversial global influence.

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal: “The far-right party there, AfD, which has been boosted by JD Vance and also prominently by Elon Musk, comes in second.” ([04:26] Sagar and Krystal)

Implications:

• Shift in European Politics: The AfD’s success indicates a potential shift towards more nationalist and populist policies in Germany, which may have broader implications for the European Union’s stability.
• Musk’s Global Influence: Musk’s involvement underscores the intertwined nature of technology, media, and politics on a global scale, raising questions about the appropriate limits of such influence.

5. Bernie Sanders’ Town Halls in Nebraska and Iowa

Overview: Bernie Sanders is actively engaging with voters through large town hall events in critical swing states like Nebraska and Iowa, showcasing significant Democratic enthusiasm.

Key Points:

• Voter Engagement: Massive crowds and high energy levels indicate strong support and mobilization behind Sanders’ campaign.
• Strategic Importance: Focusing efforts in these states aims to consolidate Democratic efforts and counteract Republican momentum.

Notable Quotes:

• Sagar: “Bernie is out doing some barn burner town hall in Nebraska and Iowa in particular. Massive overflow crowds kind of leading the way for Democrats.” ([04:29] Sagar and Krystal)

Implications:

• Democratic Resurgence: Sanders’ proactive engagement may revitalize the Democratic base, increasing voter turnout and consolidating support ahead of the midterms.
• Counterbalance to GOP Pushback: High Democratic enthusiasm could effectively counterbalance the internal GOP resistance against Trump and Musk’s policies.

6. Warren Buffett’s Cash Holdings

Overview: Warren Buffett, CEO of Berkshire Hathaway, is reportedly holding the highest amount of cash reserves the company has ever amassed, signaling economic caution.

Key Points:

• Cash Hoarding: Buffett’s strategy reflects a cautious outlook on the current economic climate, possibly anticipating volatility or downturns.
• Market Signals: This move could influence market perceptions, reinforcing concerns about inflation and economic stability.

Notable Quotes:

• Sagar: “Warren Buffett is hoarding the most amount of cash in Berkshire Hathaway that he ever has. So what does that indicate?” ([04:29] Sagar and Krystal)

Implications:

• Economic Indicators: Buffett’s actions serve as a barometer for economic health, suggesting that even seasoned investors are wary of impending financial challenges.
• Investor Confidence: High cash reserves may lead to decreased confidence among investors, contributing to market instability and heightened economic anxiety.

7. Luigi Mangioni’s Court Appearance and Protests

Overview: Luigi Mangioni’s court case has become a focal point of protest, with Spencer Snyder reporting live from outside the courthouse, capturing both protesters and supporters.

Key Points:

• Public Demonstrations: The case has ignited significant public interest and polarization, with fervent support and opposition manifesting in large-scale protests.
• Spencer Snyder’s Coverage: On-the-ground reporting highlights the community’s divided sentiments and the broader implications for political activism.

Notable Quotes:

• Sagar: “We are going to show you the Bernie town halls. We're going to show you a little bit of the pushback at some of the Republican town halls. There is a very similar vibe that is starting to emerge to the 2000s and 2010s.” ([22:24] Sagar and Krystal)

Implications:

• Political Polarization: The intense reactions surrounding Mangioni’s case reflect deep-seated divisions within the populace, potentially influencing future political discourse and policies.
• Activism Ripple Effects: Such high-profile cases can galvanize voter bases, impacting turnout and engagement in subsequent elections.

8. Economic Indicators and Midterm Election Implications

Overview: Current economic indicators, including rising inflation and concerns about the federal budget, suggest troubling trends that could disadvantage the incumbent administration in the midterm elections.

Key Points:

• Inflation and Cost of Living: Persistent inflation remains a top priority for voters, with little focus from the Trump administration on addressing these issues.

• Tax Policy Controversies: The proposed $4.5 trillion tax cut primarily benefits corporations and the wealthiest Americans, contrary to public preference for supporting working-class families.

• Economic Sentiment: A negative shift in consumer sentiment and increasing financial worries among voters could erode support for the current administration.

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal: “Consumer sentiment, you know, turning really negative, Inflation ticking up, concerns about inflation ticking up Trump increasingly underwater on the economy.” ([25:02] Sagar and Krystal)
• Sagar: “Americans are still saying, hey, my biggest priority is still inflation. It's still cost of living. And there is zero focus on that from the Trump administration.” ([29:01] Sagar and Krystal)

Implications:

• Voter Priorities Misalignment: The administration’s policies appear out of sync with voter concerns, particularly regarding economic stability and support for working families.
• Electoral Vulnerability: If economic indicators continue to worsen, the Trump administration may face significant challenges at the polls, with potential losses in key swing districts.

9. Concluding Insights and Future Outlook

Overview: Krystal and Saagar conclude the episode by reflecting on the precarious position of the Trump-Musk alliance and the broader political and economic instability it signifies.

Key Points:

• Consolidation of Power Risks: The intertwining of Trump’s administration with Elon Musk’s influence poses significant risks of political and economic fallout, potentially leading to a “political collapse.”

• Historical Context: The hosts draw parallels with past administrations that faced similar challenges, highlighting unique aspects of the current scenario.

• Midterm Election Forecast: With discontent brewing and institutional resistance mounting, the midterm elections are poised to be highly volatile, with substantial implications for both major political parties.

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal: “These are human beings, you know. Right. And if you've shown, if you put in 20 years of loyal service to the government as a civil servant and then you're just booted out unceremoniously for literally no reason, I think that's probably going to impact how loyal you feel to your government.” ([13:11] Sagar and Krystal)

• Sagar: “There's a vast swath of people who are really being shaken by this approach from Elon and the chaos that it's injected into this entire workforce.” ([13:11] Sagar and Krystal)

Implications:

• Institutional Integrity: The ongoing conflicts between administrative directives and agency autonomy threaten the foundational integrity of federal institutions.
• Public Trust: Continued misalignment between government actions and public expectations may further erode trust in leadership, exacerbating political polarization and unrest.

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Conclusion: This episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar provides a critical examination of the escalating tension within Trump’s administration, exacerbated by Elon Musk’s assertive interventions. Through detailed analysis of polling data, institutional responses, and economic indicators, the hosts illuminate the potential for significant political shifts in the upcoming midterm elections. The episode underscores the fragility of current political alliances and the profound impact of leadership decisions on federal institutions and public trust.

Notable Quotes Recap:

• Sagar: “Elon Musk is becoming this rallying point for anger on the left.” ([20:38] Sagar and Krystal)
• Krystal: “Consumer sentiment, you know, turning really negative, Inflation ticking up, concerns about inflation ticking up Trump increasingly underwater on the economy.” ([25:02] Sagar and Krystal)
• Sagar: “Americans are still saying, hey, my biggest priority is still inflation.” ([29:01] Sagar and Krystal)

For listeners seeking to understand the intricate dynamics of current U.S. politics, this episode offers invaluable insights into the unfolding power struggles and their broader implications.

Transcript

[Ashley Kinetic]

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[Ashley Kinetic]

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[Sagar and Krystal]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Ashley Kinetic]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Sagar and Krystal]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Ashley Kinetic]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] Good morning everybody. Happy Monday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have? Crystal?

[Sagar and Krystal]

Indeed we do. Glad to have you back, my friend.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Thank you. Yeah, it was a rough one out there. It's the worst flu season since 2009. So everybody out there, please take precautions. Stay away from anybody who tells you that they're feeling okay. It's not too bad. Stay away from them.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Yes, yes. Don't be afraid of breaking out the mask. I'm being so for real right now.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Yeah. This will be the only time that I'm like, I will endorse mask wearing culture, especially for people who have children and all of that. It's a rough one. I know multiple people who've been inflicted, so stay away from them. And if you hear my voice crack, it's not my fault. I apologize.

[Sagar and Krystal]

My daughter's second grade class has been absolutely decimated.

[Ashley Kinetic]

It's horrible.

[Sagar and Krystal]

We've gotten, I won't say unscathed, but we've escaped the worst of it so far this year. So fingers crossed the weather turns nicer and some of these things die down. Yes. But it's been a rough one.

[Ashley Kinetic]

It's been bad.

[Sagar and Krystal]

So in any case, glad you're back. We got a lot to talk about. Elon sent out a weekend ultimatum to all federal government employees. Interestingly though, a lot of the agencies are telling their workers, including, you know, FBI, now under Cash Patel, Department of Defense, et cetera, don't respond to this email. So very interesting dynamics playing out here. We got some new polls revealing the latest about how the public feels about Doge and Elon, and all of these things are unfolding. We also had a purge of some of the top brass at the Pentagon. We'll tell you what happened and what it potentially means. Elections in Germany. So the far right party there, AfD, which have been boosted by JD Vance and also prominently by Elon Musk, comes in second. Really interesting political dynamics there. Inflation, the war in Ukraine, immigration, economics, incumbent parties, all of these trends playing out in Germany. So we'll break that down for you as well. Bernie is out doing some barn burner town hall in Nebraska and Iowa in particular. Massive overflow crowds kind of leading the way for Democrats. He actually has a strategy that he is pursuing. Lo and behold, at least one person has some idea of what they're doing out there. Warren Buffett is hoarding the most amount of cash in Berkshire Hathaway that he ever has. So what does that indicate? There are also some other troubling economic indicators. We're going to take a look at all of that. And Luigi Mangioni made an appearance in court. Our own Spencer Snyder was there on the ground talking to people who were outside, protesters and his supporters who were outside explaining what they thought about his case and why they were there to support him. So really interested to get that on the ground report as well.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Yes, that's right. And continue to monitor the FAQ on his Website with a lot of great interest. Did you watch that segment?

[Sagar and Krystal]

No.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Yeah, Ryan and I did it. It was an FAQ all about how people can send him photographs. And to keep in mind that those photographs are screened by the police. Just in terms of the number of thirst traps Luigi finds himself receiving on.

[Sagar and Krystal]

I mean, what can you say? He's a great man. He's a great looking man.

[Ashley Kinetic]

I have to say, I told you guys on the call, I am absolutely, absolutely in love with Luigi's sweater. I'm in the market, so if anybody knows where he got it, please let me know. All right, let's go ahead and start with Doge. So actually a very interesting showdown happening here in Washington, and I would say the first, like, major institutional pushback within the MAGA coalition. The government against Doge. Here, let's put this up there on the screen. It began with, like an office space style meme email that Elon sent to the entire federal workforce on Saturday around 3:00pm, and it says, what did you do last week? Please reply with approximately five bullets. Note the, like, the weird pronunciation there. Five bullets of what you accomplished last week. And CC your manager. Please do not send any classified information, links or attachments. Deadline is this Monday at 11:59 EST. So let's go to Elon's explanation for that email. It says, consistent with President Trump's instructions, all federal employees will shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week. Failure to respond will be taken as resignation. So this appears to have been probably the most explicit example of Elon, Doge, quote, unquote, overreach with pushback. Because what immediately happened was their agencies telling them not to comply. Keep in mind, Trump has not spoken out about this at all. If anything's been encouraging him to go further. Put that next one, please, so we can show people. It says, Elon is doing a great job, but I would like to see him get more aggressive. Remember, we have a country to save, but ultimately to make greater than ever before. MAGA immediately though. Following that email, Kash Patel, the newly confirmed FBI Director, directed his entire workforce not to respond to the email. It just says all FBI personnel may have. I love may have received an email from OPM requesting information. The FBI, through the Office of the Director, is in charge of all of our review processes and will conduct reviews in accordance with FBI procedures. When and if further information is required, we will coordinate the responses. For now, please pause any responses. Thank you. Kash Patel, on the right is RFK Jr actually, who reversed his original policy Telling his workforce to reply to the email, saying HHS leadership continues to work with OPM officials on how to best meet the intent of yesterday's notice. Employees are therefore directed to pause activities and answering the OPM email. Additional guidance will be provided on or around noon tomorrow. And then finally, the Pentagon also weighed in here. Let's go to A four, please. Just to show people, the Department of Defense, the entire Pentagon received the following email when, if required, the department will coordinate responses to the email you have received from opm. So I do think this is very significant. Crystal. I think it's the very first time that you've seen Doge and or Elon, you know, send one of these mass emails. Beyond even the, quote, unquote fork in the road, the buyout, this one was one where the directors of the agencies really stepped forward and they're like, yeah, that's just not happening in terms of you trying to run my workforce. So I do find it actually very interesting. And I mean, I'm presuming that there's at least some Trump support or maybe the Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles, somebody like this, because it's just obviously, like, overriding chain of command. You know, the Senate confirmed appointees in the workforce and others. So this could be a turning point. I'm actually curious to see how it goes.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Yeah, we'll see. There's a lot that's interesting about this and the dynamics and the way that it played out. So, first of all, I didn't realize this, but apparently previously, like before Kash Patel was nominated to be Director of the FBI and certainly before he was confirmed, etcetera, he was quite critical of Elon. He went on a bunch of podcasts. Our friends over at Dropsite actually compiled all of this information, but he went on a bunch of podcasts where he was very critical of him. Kind of similar to, like the Steve Bannon style criticism, he was critical of him on his Twitter account. And you could just imagine for all these people who, like, you know, got their spot as an agency head and went through Senate confirmation and did the whole thing, and then you get in there and on basically day one, you've got this goofball over here, richest man on the planet, who thinks he can just come in over your head and be like, yeah, I'm gonna fire a bunch of your workforce if they don't respond to my email in a couple days time. And so whereas congressional Republicans seem to have been pretty comfortable just like, ceding all of their power and authority to Elon and To Doge, these agency heads were like, wait a second. No, no, no, no, no. This is my workforce. I have some authority at this agency. And you're not gonna just completely bigfoot me on all of this. So we'll see. The RFK one was interesting as well because initially the guidance he put out was, go ahead and respond to this email. And then they sort of backtracked and said like, well, actually pause your work on that email was, I think, the way they phrased it in a sort of like awkward worded email. I'll tell you, I've mentioned this before. The town I live in, which is the town I grew up on, which is not dc, which is not even Northern Virginia. It really is this like, you know, rural community totally built around a naval base where they do a bunch of civilian research. So it's mostly like civilian. There are active duty military there as well. It was mostly like civilian scientists that work there. And so I was talking to some of my very non political, like parent friends there about how all this is going down. And I mean, they're completely panicked. They have never seen anything like it. They're deeply confused about what to do. One of them showed me the communication that they got from the captain who runs their particular group at the base. And it was like, actually the phrasing of it was kind of funny because they were like, we're not sure this email is real, so while we're investigating, just go ahead and don't respond to this email. But it really is for the federal government workforce, which by the way, is, I think a majority of them actually work for the Department of Defense. It is not necessarily the caricature ish view that people have of some super liberal political activists, bureaucrat. Many of them live and work outside of D.C. in rural areas, many of whom are Republicans, by the way. I mean, most of these people who work on this space, I know for a fact vote Republican. The town that I'm from is like 60 to 65% TRUMP supporting kind of a county. So anyway, there's a vast swath of people who are really being shaken by this approach from Elon and the chaos that it's injected into this entire workforce.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Yeah, the numbers here from Claude. We have 4 million people who work for the federal government. It is the largest employer in the United States. Approximately 85% of federal employees, civil civilian employees, work outside of the Washington D.C. metropolitan area. The distribution, exactly as you said. Military bases, which are located throughout the country, federal agencies, national parks, VA hospitals, border patrol and the Social Security Administration, which has an office in most counties, I believe every county across the United States. So let's put a five up there on the screen just to show people even more so kind of what this is leading to. The OPM email has been met not only with some of the most high profile agencies saying not to comply, but you also have some of the largest unions of federal workers telling them as well to be cautious responding or not to respond at all. But I think most important really is the State Department said not to do it. The ge, the end. The. The Commerce Department specifically NOAA and NSA employees were told the same not to. I guess, you know, theoretically they should have. Right.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Well, that was actually another point that one of the parents in King George county, where I live, made as well, is like, he's like, you know, we all have like really high levels of classification clearance.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Yeah.

[Sagar and Krystal]

And so if you're just like mass firing a bunch of people who have some of the highest security clearances in the government, he's like, how loyal do you think they're gonna be feeling to the country after that?

[Ashley Kinetic]

I only don't like that because it's.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Like a risk as well to all of this because it is done in such a, like, you know, it's just such a blanket across the board. No thought into how many years of service you've put in, how effective an employee you've been, how significant you've been into the organization. Just like zero loyalty whatsoever.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Yeah. The only reason I don't like that is cause it's presumed that it's like, oh, if we don't pay them, then they're gonna go work for somebo else. It's like, while that might be true in theory, it's just it kind of, you know, hits against the idea.

[Sagar and Krystal]

I mean, I'm not ultra loyal. I'm not like advocating to it, but I am saying, like these are human beings, you know. Right. And if you've shown, if you put in 20 years of loyal service to the government as a civil servant and then you're just booted out unceremoniously for literally no reason, I think that's probably going to impact how loyal you feel to your government.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Maybe the Russians and the Chinese are just rubbing their hands.

[Sagar and Krystal]

They may be. They may be.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Let's go to a six. Here we have. This was flagged by Ken Klippenstein. He's Gerry Connolly. Who is, what is he, the head of the Dem Oversight Committee? That's right, yeah. He's currently battling cancer. But Ken has really mounted a war against him just for. Not because of his illness, just to show, like, gerontocracy and who the Democratic Party chooses.

[Sagar and Krystal]

They chose this guy over aoc.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Right. So here was his response on the federal email. Let's take a listen. What are you recommending federal workers should do? When they turn on the news today, they hear this and they're like, I got a deadline by tomorrow night.

[Sagar and Krystal]

What should I do?

[Ashley Kinetic]

This. Yeah, I hesitate to give personal advice. I guess if you can cover yourself and do the five things you did last week just to be able to say, well, I did it. So, yeah, he's like, well, maybe just respond to the email. You and I are willing to cut the guy off.

[Sagar and Krystal]

I'm a little sympathetic. Well, first of all, background on Gerry Connolly. He. Before he was in Congress, he was the chair of the Board of Supervisors in Fairfax County. Yeah, he has. And he. His district represents Fairfax county and the environs. He probably has more federal government workers in his district than any other district in the country, or certainly among the top. So this is very like. Like he knows these people. So he's thinking about. He's not thinking about, like, how do you make a political point? He's thinking about, like, Susie who works in wherever wants to keep her job. She's not trying to make some political stance. And so I'm actually sympathetic to this because if somebody in my county just asked me, like, what should I do? I don't know what I'd say. I don't know what I'd tell them. I don't wanna put them at risk to get fired over some stupid email. So a better response would have been talk to your union, talk to your supervisor, figure out what the coordinated response is versus, I don't know, I guess just respond to the email and cover yourself. But I am a little bit sympathetic to him here on this.

[Ashley Kinetic]

I think you're. I think we're willing to cut a little bit of slack. I have also taken a personal census of some of the federal employees who I know, and they're not happy right now. I'm sure there's some mag people who are cheering about it, but really what it is is about the chaos and people just not really knowing what to do. How this will manifest politically, I genuinely have no idea. I have been thinking about that statistic about the number of people employed by the federal government. Just because, as we know, formula people work for the government. Then if we think about family, then everybody probably has a cousin or, you know, a friend. Or daughter, son, whatever, somebody who works for the feds who is currently experiencing this. And what we know from COVID is that the reason why I think that the 2020 election is the highest turnout election in modern history is because it was the first time that government really touched people's lives in an ultra tangible way. Be it checks, be it lockdowns, be it vaccine mandates, like the government policy had never been more directly intervention in your bank account and in your and so in this case, you know, if the government is seen as being axing your job or causing stress or any of that, it could certainly activate and give people a reason to turn out. This message is for you. You want to lose weight and get healthy and you want help to know where to start and what to do day by day. So you absolutely 100% get fast results step by step. I'm Carl Daikeler, CEO of BODI. Right now I'm inviting 100,000 people to get the results they want without expensive equipment or the hassle of a gym. It's the annual Love youe Body event. Last year we helped thousands of people succeed and this year we're helping even more. So it's time for you to join us and really follow through. For just 50 cents a day we'll help you choose the best fitness program for you, plus an easy to follow nutrition plan. And if you don't lose up to 10 to 15 pounds in your first month, you get your money back. Do you want to get results working out right at home in around a half hour a day for less than a cup of coffee? Join the Love youe Body event now. To get this special 50 cents a day offer, go to bodi.com and get signed up. That's bodiwithan I.com@ameca insurance we know it's more than just a car. It's the two door coupe that was there for your first drive, the hatchback that took you cross country and back, and the minivan that tackles the weekly carpool for the cars you couldn't live without. Trust Ameca Auto Insurance Ameca Empathy is our best policy.

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[Ashley Kinetic]

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[Ashley Kinetic]

Which is something I think is a good transition to our next polling segment, which is just about how people are feeling about Elon and or Doge. I'm gonna give my normal caveat. Just everybody remember how wrong the polls were back in 2024, not that long ago. So keep that in mind when you're looking at this and all the other structural problems. It's all we really have to go off of. So based on that, what are we seeing? Can we make possibly some inferences? CNN's Harry Entin, who we always respect, broke some of the numbers down that we do have. Let's take a listen. The people are mad.

[Sagar and Krystal]

They are angry. They are rising up. Take a look here. Top worst things that Trump has done. This is among the folks who oppose Trump actions in office so far.

[Ashley Kinetic]

You might have thought going into the.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Election or afterwards it'd be immigration policy, but that comes in at just 10%. Check out on this side of the screen, though. I'm coming over to Mr. Berman's side. Musk, Doge or the funding freezes, right? These funding cuts, look at that.

[Ashley Kinetic]

That takes the cake. 24%.

[Sagar and Krystal]

That is the top answer amongst those who oppose Donald Trump's actions in office, saying it is the worst thing that he has done so far. It's must, it's Doge, it's those funding cuts. The people are mad. And if last night is an example, that town hall, they ain't going to take it anymore. The most significant Trump action this term so far.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Look at this.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Democrats are more angry about this than Republicans are happy about it. Look at this. Democrats 18% say that the Musk Doge access to data is the most significant action so far for Trump this term. Bring it over to this side of the screen. Look at this. Just 9% of Republicans say that Musk, Doge and the access to data is the most significant Trump action so far. So Elon Musk is becoming this rallying point for anger, this rallying point for.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Anger on the left.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Back In December of 2024, he was underwater, but just underwater by five points. Look at where he is now in February 2025. The American people are turning against Elon Musk. His net favorable rating way down there pass now minus 10 points. Minus 12 points. The bottom line is this. The voters are angry with Elon Musk. They're angry with the cuts to the federal government.

[Ashley Kinetic]

So that's the top line here in terms of the numbers. Crystal and I were just talking while the thing was going in terms of the polls and I guess it's worth talking about in terms of, of what it is. What do you think? So overall, the statistical analysis I saw saw like a rough like 3% miss across the board. It's not terrible, but of course that was within the margin of error, especially in a lot of these swing states. My only caution, as I was telling you, is about the oversampling of Democrats. That was clearly a big problem from 2020. It was a big problem in 2024. That's part of the reason where the miss was and especially right now, just because Democrats, if that is to be trusted, especially enthusiasm number, if they're a lot more likely to be politically engaged and or respond, it could things differently from where they are. I just want to caution people, just considering how, I mean the Iowa stuff and all that is just too, too ingrained and it's been too soon since all of that for me to be fully put my trust in all of this.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Although I think that's all valid. The only thing I will say is if we're thinking, if we're projecting these polls out to like, okay, well, what does a midterm performance look like? Which side is more energized matters a lot.

[Ashley Kinetic]

That is exactly. And that is the one that matters the most in a midterm election.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Yeah. And that's what I saw. I mean, I ran for Congress in 2010 as a Democrat in the Tea Party wave. And so it was Democrats had control of everything. They were sort of like demoralized or not that energized or not that excited to come out and vote. And Republicans voted en masse and they were pissed and they wanted to take back power. And we're going to show you the Bernie town halls. We're going to show you a little bit of the pushback at some of the Republican town halls. There is a very similar vibe that is starting to emerge to the 2000 and tens. It's just the reverse in terms of which political party is more energized this time around. And I think naturally when you have one party that's in power, typically historically, there is a backlash and there is adjustment in the next midterm where the party that's in power performs really poorly. And then when you add on top of that, you know, Doge taking these incredibly aggressive, chaotic actions, the consolidation of power in the hands of this one dude that people are increasingly like really not psyched about. And the ways that it really does touch so many communities across the country. Because again, federal government workers are not just here in D.C. they are spread out in communities across the country. The impact of federal government spending is spread out in places across the country. There are a bunch of articles about, and this is actually really sad to me because I love our national parks and I know you do too. Sager like the impact there and how they've had to stop taking reservations and you know, they're so short staffed they can barely function at this point. Those national parks are huge economic drivers for the mostly rural and many of them Western communities that, you know, that exist out there. So the impact is a lot more diffuse and a lot more widespread than I think people are taking into account. And in addition, I was seeing one analysis that also suggests that, you know, for every federal government worker that you fire, you're also talking about probably two or, or three contractors that are impacted by that. And again, you know, back to my small town that I live in, I know that's like the whole economy there is around this base, if that takes on, if that is cut significantly, it would be devastating to the whole entire town and community, et cetera. So I think people are very upset and unhappy with the really callous and chaotic way this is all unfolding.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Yeah, part of the problem is, is that it doesn't feel like there's some ground. And that's always the issue is if I think about the tariffs we Talked about from 2018, one of the reason why I think that Trump never got any real sustainable pushback is it was directly connected. We're like, look, we're doing this around China. Yes, washing machines will be more expensive. Soybean farmers, we're gonna cut you guys checks from these tariffs. This is all about restoring the trade deficit. And people were like, okay, I understand that. The thing is with Doge right now is it doesn't feel, it feels both slap shot and it also doesn't necessarily feel as if it's working to some broader end. And the more that that stuff permeates, like you said, I mean, for me, you know, if somebody messed with my Zion reservation, I would be very upset. So I feel very much with a lot of those people out there, it's already a shitty program. The way that these national pro, the National Park Service reservations worked. And if you had stuff like that planned for the future, it would be infuriating because it is one of the cheapest vacations any American can take is to go to a national park. It's literally, what, like $70 or something for a year long past. And you can have unlimited entertainment in them. And they're amazing.

[Sagar and Krystal]

They're absolutely incredible.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Anybody out there, go as quick as you possibly can. This is starting to be spring. Shenandoah is here nearby us. It's an amazing park. I've never been to Smoky Mountains, that's next on my list. But Zion, Yosemite, Glacier, any of these, they're just incredible, incredible places. Let's put this one up there on the screen. A8, please. Cause this is probably the most noteworthy one if we want to go off of people who were accurate. Trump's own pollster certainly was was accurate. And he says a poll of swing voters is showing warning signs for Republicans bent on helping billionaires. So it is interesting because if you dig down into the memo from this pollster, it finds, quote, sizable majorities in competitive House districts are unhappy about their economic predicament. It gently warns that Republicans that some of Trump's priorities they would enact would prove unpopular. Though it does avoid saying this directly, the memo suggests that some Republicans at least do think that public opinion matters and even that maybe, just maybe, they do fear being held accountable in the Future Elections. Says 59% of voters in 18 swing districts are worried about their personal financial situations. Republicans have to play catch up here. Trump's approval in the district is 47, 49. So still, I mean, it's competitive and definitely within the margin of error. But you should pay attention to the Tony Fabrizio one. Obviously, obviously he was very accurate in the Trump polls in the Trump election. Trump obviously trusts him and it may inform some of the future decisions here around Elon. And one thing we know about Trump is that Trump is the ultimate transactional figure. Now, I don't think that at this point he cannot sideline Elon because Elon has become a cause celeb for the left, right? Like in terms of the number one vector. And Trump more than anything, from what I understand, the people around him, him, his biggest regret of his entire presidency is ever caving to liberals. So Charlottesville apologizing and firing Mike Flynn, like his, his main takeaway from the first term is that he should just not listen at all. So anybody predicting some, like, grand firing and all that, I don't see it. I do think that this sign of this email and Saying, hey, don't reply, and all that. That could be the slow phase out. You also don't forget, Doge technically is only supposed to exist until July 4th of 2026. So could be like an initial sidelining and then like a nice disbandment where they don't acknowledge it 100%. But don't forget, July 2026 is right around when you would have the midterm election. So it's like, right, the summer season is exactly when people start to pay attention. So I could see some stuff like that in the future, or just a general ongoing move of being like, all right, Elon, you can tweet whatever bullshit statistics that you want about however much money supposedly saved the government, but these emails and all this other stuff like that needs to stop.

[Sagar and Krystal]

We'll see. We'll see.

[Ashley Kinetic]

I don't know.

[Sagar and Krystal]

There's no real sign of that at this point, but maybe if the poll numbers get more dire, he'll decide like, all right, I'm kind of done with this guy. Part of the problem, also outlined in this memo from Trump's own pollster, is warning signs about the way that they craft this tax bill coming up as well, because they ask people what the top priority of tax policy should be. And unsurprisingly, a vast majority, 63%, said the top priority should be helping working class families. Only 1% said it should be helping corporations and the wealthiest Americans. And yet we already know that in terms of the tax package that they're putting together, whether or not no tax on tips or some other of the more populous proposals that Trump put out there, whether or not any of them make it into that package still really an open question. But even if they do, the vast bulk of that $4.5 trillion tax cut is going to go to the wealthiest in corporations through the extension of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. So you've got that. And then you also have the fact that Americans are still saying, hey, my biggest priority is still inflation. It's. It's still cost of living. And there is zero focus on that from the Trump administration. We've already seen inflation tick up. Now he's saying, oh, that's the fault of the last guy. Maybe people will give him some grace for now because he is still so new into office. But if those trends continue, which they very possibly could, especially with the tariff threats, certainly feed into that, et cetera, then he could really be having quite a lot of problems politically. There already are a lot of polls showing that one of his greatest Strengths as a politician has always been the way people trust him on the economy because they just think, oh, this guy's a businessman, he must know what he's doing, et cetera. He is deeply underwater on the economy already. And so Sagar, I think that's the other problem with Doge is it is the sense of like, I didn't ask for like Gulf of America renaming. I didn't ask for this, like just go and randomly fire a bunch of federal government workers and. And I didn't vote for this random guy, richest man on the planet, consolidating power and doing all of this just blatant self dealing. And why aren't you focused on the priorities that actually impact me and that I'm focused on in my day to day life. I think that's a real risk for him as well.

[Ashley Kinetic]

It would not surprise me. But I'm still just been so burned, I think by a lot. It just seems a little too cute for that to happen. As in like check the box of every liberal slash mainstream critique. And I've just because of the way that 2024 meant, I'm like, maybe we'll see. Just in terms of what it means for how people internalize all of this. Remember my warning, the more tapped in you are, the more likely you were to vote for Kamala. So how many people out there are even aware of Doge, Gulf of America or even if they are aware of Gulf America?

[Sagar and Krystal]

I think people are pretty aware of Doge.

[Ashley Kinetic]

They might think it's funny, but that's what I'm saying is that you can be aware and like it. And I think that's the one caution I would always give people is remember the way that the media or the liberals will frame something is not necessarily how it lands. Remember Puerto Rico, Gate, the childless cat lady, stuff like Brat Summer, all this stuff. It was a complete opposite of how it all eventually turned out. I just really think that's important for people to take away.

[Sagar and Krystal]

If we had paid attention to just the material concerns of Americans, we would have been much more on point. People would have had a much more accurate view of how this election was ultimately going to go. Because people were consistently like, my biggest problem is inflation and I'm not happy with the economy and I'm certainly not happy with the way the Democrats have handled the economy. And so when you have all of them, we're going to do an economic segment later on. A lot of warning signs. Consumer sentiment, you know, turning really negative, Inflation ticking up, concerns about inflation ticking up Trump increasingly underwater on the economy. Like, I think those are very important warning signs for him. And when you couple that with. With this agenda, that seems really clearly crap. Like, all the populist positioning from the campaign is gone, and now you've just handed the keys over to the richest man on the planet who's out there looking out for himself and his interests, and you're about to couple that with a gigantic tax cut for the rich. I think that is very politically perilous, to say the least.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Yeah, the tax cut, I think, is. Again, I actually think that might be the most perilous one for Trump because there's no getting around. If anything, he was lucky that he passed it so early last time around. What was it? April, I think, of 2017. I don't remember if I recall the TCJA, or maybe it was June. It was something like that. That was the first, like, major accomplishment. It was obviously, as I always say, the lowest approval rating for Donald Trump. And by that point, though, three, four years later, people had mostly forgotten about it. So that's one of those where it could be politically perilous. I definitely think it will be for the midterm elections in the long term. I have no idea. Been thinking about the Clinton administration a lot, which similarly had a very rocky 1993, got blown out in 1994, but by 96, is still able to pull it out and somehow win. So it's not always a predictor of how things will go.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Obama's another example of that. Perfect example. Tea Party wave happens, and then Republicans think, oh, we're a lock to win. And then he wins in actually quite a significant landslide. Right. On the other hand, I mean, this also raises the question, like, Trump is out there. I'm gonna run for another. Shouldn't I run for another term? And there's a whole Steve Bannon and lots of other people that are trying to push for a Trump term number three, which obviously is unconstitutional. I don't, at this point see how they could actually make that happen. But the other thing is that it is unlikely to be Trump who's running again. So in those situations, you have incumbent presidents who were both extremely politically talented, like, you know, however you feel about them ideologically. Bill Clinton and Barack Obama were both generational political talents. Trump is in his own way as well. So you are unlikely to have him on the ballot again, which I do think sort of complicates the picture, because nobody has been able to really consolidate and put together the amount of enthusiasm and this particular coalition that Donald Trump has been able to bring the case.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Forward is the 88 election. The 88 election was very interesting. HW is a very weak candidate, of course, like the blue blood and you know, with the grocery store stuff that all happened eventually and sunk him in 92. But really it was like Reagan hangover. People trusted him. The 12 years of government supply side economics and all that narratively was there and then Dukakis was just whole. So it's one of those where you could see if the Democrats choose a Dukakis style figure, all that you really all HW had to do was not just run on the Reagan legacy, but really against like institutional leftism as it kind of existed at that time. So I've been thinking about that as well. But obviously that's a long, long way away. This message is for you. You want to lose weight and get healthy and you want help to know where to start and what to do day by day. So you absolutely 100% get fast results step by step. I'm Carl Daikeler, CEO of BODI. Right now I'm inviting 100,000 people to get the results they want without expensive equipment or the hassle of a gym. It's the annual Love youe Body event. Last year we helped thousands of people succeed and this year we're helping even more. So it's time for you to join us and really follow through. For just 50 cents a day, we'll help you choose the best fitness program for you. Plus an easy to follow nutrition plan. And if you don't lose up to 10 to 15 pounds in your first month, you get your money back. Do you want to get results working out right at home in around a half hour a day for less than a cup of coffee? Join the Love youe Body event now to get this special 50 cents a day offer, go to bodi.com and get signed up. That's Bodi with an I.com@ameca insurance, we know it's more than just a car. It's the two door couple that was there for your first drive. The hatchback that took you cross country and back, and the minivan that tackles the weekly carpool for the cars you couldn't live without. Trust Ameca Auto Insurance Amica Empathy is our best policy.

[Sagar and Krystal]

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Let's put some of the polling up here just to see what we have so far. This from the Washington oh, sorry, this is from ipso. Some new polling that just came in. Approval of Musk shutting down federal programs he decides are unnecessary. Disapprove is 52% approve 26 net minus 26. Let's go to the next one, please. Just to continue to show people approval of Elon Musk's job in government. Disapproves at 49 approve is at 34 net minus 15 next one as well. Just to continue, would you rather see the next control Congress by Democrats or Republicans? It has democrats there with 54. Again. Remember, it's only been a month, I think a month and four days and all of that things definitely there. And keep in mind all the caveats I gave about oversampling and all of that. But I will just say initially it would not be a surprise. In fact, it would be. It would be very in line with historical trends for the Republicans to have a blowout in the midterms. They already don't have control of Congress. Their number one achievement, the only legislative achievement I can track right now with any regularity is this tax bill, which is not going to be popular. It will be popular for a lot of rich people, but that's it. So you're gonna have that. You could have potentially higher inflation and economic crisis or some sort of international situation. None of that could happen and you would still fit within a historical trend of the Democratic thermostatic public opinion, the turnout being high. This is an interesting theory I've been looking at is that united control of Congress, of Congress and the presidency often leads to some of the bigger midterm blowouts. So if you think about Obama, similar thing I was just looking at the margins. Those margins were insane. 57 seats in the Senate is crazy for the Democrats. But the fact is that their ability to pass the 2009, the health care reform, obviously that's what ignited the Tea Party and that's what led to the huge blowout in 2010 for that. If you look back to the Democrats a little bit different with Clinton in terms of the control, but the similar 93 push for that initial healthcare reform that led to the CHIP act or whatever it was called under Hillary Clinton experienced a significant amount of blowback with the Contract for America. So you could easily see something like that happen with Donald Trump is that very often united control of government leads to a midterm kind of blowout, which wouldn't surprise me.

[Sagar and Krystal]

And I think they are really flirting with like historic, just like disaster and political disaster. Because as we discussed before, by putting their hands in all of these agencies, even air traffic controllers got the Elon, justify yourself your existence to me in five bullet points like across the board. So you have one. You're one major disaster away from people completely turning on this administration. Not to mention, as we're about to discuss later in the show, a lot of very concerning economic indicators. So there is a possibility out there of real political collapse outside of even what the Tea Party wave was or what the backlash in the Clinton administration was, et cetera. So I do think that they are playing with fire right now. And just to wrap up this block, go back to a 9, which shows some of the numbers for Trump in particular, because in the very early days of the administration, Elon seemed to be taking on water, but Trump was kind of hanging in there. His approval rating was staying more or less 50 50, which for him is phenomenal. Greg Sargent here has kind of a compilation of some of the recent polling that has warning signs not just about Elon, but about Trump himself. Only 34% have approve of Mike Musk's role, 63% worry about his data access. According to CNN, 54% say it is bad that he was given a big role. And now you have majorities disapproving of Trump in cnn, Washington Post and Gallup. And also Trump's own pollster, as we showed you before, has him underwater in swing districts. So Trump's approval, pretty consistent trend in all of these polls seems to be trending downward as he now takes on water because of the unpopularity of Musk and do and the actions that they're doing.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Very possible, like you said. Also keep in mind though, is that I came pretty damn close in the 2020 election even with what, what did he have like a 30% approval rating. So you never know. There are a lot of people out there who vote for Trump who don't like him. I will say one thing.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Well, again, he's not supposed to be on the ballot again.

[Ashley Kinetic]

So oh, true. Hey, listen, we'll debate this another time. I'm very. For getting rid of the. I don't like the Bannon way because they're trying to craft it so that it's only Donald Trump. I think the entire two term limit should be completely gotten rid of. And if Obama wants to run again, let him. I hate Obama, as everybody who watches the show know. I think he should have been able to run again. I think Clinton should have been able to run again. Arguably would have been way better off if Clinton had won the 2000 election, you know, in terms of how he would have handled all that. So that 22nd Amendment really did actually cost us some bad. What it did is it created the current dynamic of the swings back and forth and led to the inability for an FDR style king and or president. I know that we've had this debate before to basically enshrine 20 years of rule, which if that's what America wants, then I think that's what America should be able to have.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Washington tradition be damned at this point. Completely unprincipled view of this, which is in general, I agree with that and I do not want Donald Trump to be able to run again.

[Ashley Kinetic]

So listen, let the people decide.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Also, like you said, they're trying. Okay, so it is. They are not going to be able to pass a constitutional amendment. That is not going to happen. So let's just put that out there. So I don't know what other pathways they would pursue. Perhaps just making some like cockamamie theory that they push up to the Supreme Court and hope that those people are just so enthralled with Trump at this point that they give him whatever he wants. But yeah, what they want it to be is that you can't serve two more than two consecutive terms. And so that would rule out Obama, but would rule in Trump. That's what they're going for, which is. Is totally unprincipled.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Then I wouldn't hate it. I wouldn't hate it. Just to set the precedent for the future. Maybe what we can have is getting.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Really old too, by the way.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Yeah, run against him, then tell the American people they care about age. Obviously that's what they said about Biden. So there we go. This message is for you. You want to lose weight and get healthy and you want help to know where to start and what to do day by day. So you absolutely 100% get fast results step by step. I'm Carl Daikeler, CEO of BODI. Right now I'm inviting 100,000 people to get the results they want without expensive equipment or the hassle of a gym. It's the annual Love youe Body event. Last year we helped thousands of people succeed and this year we're helping even more. So it's time for you to join us and really follow through. For just 50 cents a day, we'll help you choose the best fitness program for you, plus an easy to follow nutrition plan. And if you don't lose up to 10 to 15 pounds in your first month, you get your money back. Do you want to get results? Working out right at home in around a half hour a day for less than a cup of coffee? Join the Love youe Body event now to get this special 50 cents a day offer. Go to bodi.com and get signed up. That's BODI with an I.com@amica insurance we know it's more than just a car or a house. It's the four wheels that get you where you're going going and the four walls that welcome you home. When you combine auto and home insurance with Ameca, we'll help protect it all. And the more you cover, the more you can save. Ameca Empathy is our best policy.

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[Sagar and Krystal]

Empowering Creators Everywhere Trump making some significant moves over at the Pentagon, in particular removing the previous Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Let's go ahead and put his announcement up on the screen. This was on Truth Social, he says. I want to thank General Charles C. Q Brown for his over 40 years of service to our country, including as our current Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He is a fine gentleman and an outstanding leader. I wish a great future for him and his family. Today I'm honored to announce that I am nominating Air Force Lt. Gen. Dan Raisin Kane to be the next Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Kane is an accomplished pilot, national security expert, successful entrepreneur, and a war fighter, in quotes, for some reason with significant interagency and special operations experience. So we'll tell you a little bit more about the individual who is General Brown's replacement. But this was one of a number of moves that were made at the Pentagon and went, some are describing as a purge. So in addition to the chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff being removed, the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Lisa Franchetti, also removed. The Air Force Vice Chief of Staff, General James Slife, also removed. And then in addition to this, in what was, I think maybe the most eyebrow raising part of this whole maneuver, the three top lawyers for the Army, Navy and Air Force. So the top JAG lawyers for those three service branches were all fired as well. Obviously this raises questions. Why do you want to get rid of the top lawyers in these various for these various branches of the military? And Pete Hegseth, who of course is now Secretary of Defense, was pressed on exactly that point on one of the Sunday shows. Let's take a listen to that. For people who may not know, I mean, they give advice to the military about what is lawful and what isn't. Not surprisingly, there's been some backlash to those who, who are worried about their removal. One Georgetown law professor says this Trump also firing the Army, Navy and Air Force jags. In some ways, that's even more chilling.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Than firing the four stars.

[Sagar and Krystal]

It's what you do when you're planning to break the law. You get rid of any lawyers who might try to slow you down. Your response to her?

[Ashley Kinetic]

Yeah, I don't know who Rosa is and what her hyperbole is all about.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Ultimately, we want lawyers who give sound constitutional advice and don't.

[Ashley Kinetic]

They don't exist, to attempt to be.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Roadblocks to anything, anything that happens in their spots. What we know about these T jags.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Are called T Jags inside the military.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Traditionally, they've been elected by each other.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Or chosen by each other, which is exactly how it works, often with the chairman as well. Small group of insulated officers who perpetuate the status quo.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Well, guess what?

[Ashley Kinetic]

Status quo hasn't worked very well at the Pentagon.

[Sagar and Krystal]

It's time for fresh blood. So one of the things we know about Hegseth, because he's written about it and also because of his public advocacy is he has pushed for there to be fewer, fewer limits on what he calls war fighters in terms of following the rules of war. He went to the mat for A number of people who had been either indicted or convicted of war crimes, one of whom was turned in by his own soldiers underneath him for what he had done while he was in battle. And so for him to push these individuals out, I think it's pretty consistent with his desire to, I guess the polite way they would say it would be, like, loosen the rules of engagement. It's very much what you heard kind of way back in the Vietnam era. There was this sense of, oh, if we let our guys do what they do, then we would have been more successful there. You also heard it from Pete Hegseth in the context of the Iraq war, which he supported up until shockingly recently, that you needed to let them be more, have fewer rules of engagement and effectively green light more war crimes. So it's consistent with that. Also, the moves, I think, overall are consistent with Trump wants to make sure that the people who are at the top of these chains of command, that they're gonna do whatever he wants them to do, whether that pertains to executing on his foreign policy, which I think he feels justifiably that he was stymied at times by the top brass, or whether it comes to executing orders that would be unlawful or unconstitutional, as when he wanted to shoot protesters in the legs during the Black Lives Matter protests and riots. And the current chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is Mark Esper, at that point was like, we're not doing that. So I think it's maybe Mark Milley.

[Ashley Kinetic]

But, yeah, well, it was.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Millie was. Yeah, they were both involved. Sec.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Def. Look, I mean, my main thing is this traces back to. I have sympathy. There are a lot of GWAT veterans who watch the show, and in a sense, they're not in that they were constrained because they were basically put into a situation where they became State Department diplomats in this job that they never signed up for nation building and others that was not sold to the American public. So you have these guys, National Guardsmen, who were previously cops in Kansas, who are trying to negotiate between two rival sheikhs who are literally at war over which boy they get to sexually molest. And they're like, what the hell am I doing here? Right. So in a way, they're right in terms of a lot of the way that the JAG officer corps and all of that this was under McChrystal. It's kind of the HR purification of the military is they put an intense amount of restrictions on people whose job was not to do this in the first place. This is where I sympathize with the Vietnam vets and with the G WAT vets in terms of. They're like, look, we didn't know what our job was. It was to kill the enemy. Or was it to negotiate with all this bullshit between these tribal leaders and then train a bunch of guys who are the most courageous corrupt police force literally on planet earth in Afghanistan. So I sympathize with Pete on this simply because that is the overwhelming feeling of how betrayed many of the people there are. In terms of the four stars, CQ Brown, everything I did in terms of his research, this guy's mediocre at best and basically just a complete representation of the four star bureaucracy inside of the Pentagon. Terrible F35 review over the program. Literally like a DEI person in that nobody could say anything about his track record as a general except for, oh, he's black. It's like, okay, well what did he do? I read a 2023 dissent against his nomination, which went through his background at the Air Force. Not a single major remarkable thing. He was basically promoted because of his race under Lloyd Austin. It's like, okay, well, so I have no problem with him getting fired. I think really what it comes down to is the Mark Milley stuff that you talked about previously, which is that Trump correctly saw how James Mattis and Mark Milley and the previous Joint Chiefs all basically worked to stymize his direct and lawful orders. For example, like saying, pulling out of Syria, negotiating with the Taliban. These are the people who worked inside the bureaucracy to keep it from happening. One of the main reasons he picked Hegstat, Hegstat's entire formation as a member of the United States military was joining because he believed in Iraq. Obviously that was bad. But while being inside of the bureaucracy, watching both the constraining at the political and at the legal level, trying to turn the Pentagon into something that it's not supposed to be. Both in terms of a social experiment through dei, which CQ Brown, by the way, literally on record talking about how he would put his thumb on the scales to promote more black officers. I just think that's totally counter to what Trump ran on. So I don't care whatsoever that he got fired with the JAG stuff. It also very much fits with Hegstadt's view of the military and his overall war on Pentagon bureaucracy. So, I mean, currently I don't have an issue with this. I was looking to. Pete has told the department to prepare for major budget cuts. Great, let's do it. Let's cut even more four star generals. The Commonly held thing that Pete often talks about is the number of four stars that we have today, as opposed to the actual winning fighters of World War II. And I think he's completely correct in terms of the explosion of all of the bureaucracy inside of the Pentagon, where, in the words of Steve Bannon, the real budget's a trillion. We could lop 100 billion off the top and not all that much would happen over there.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Here's what I would say. I think it's insane to imagine that the problem in Iraq was that we were too protective of civilians, or in Afghanistan, for that matter.

[Ashley Kinetic]

But do you understand how they get there? Like, in terms of their sent over there, what they think is to kill terrorists. They show up and they're like, well, we're supposed to. The brass tells you kill the terrorists, but you need to have eyes on him. He needs to be shooting at you. And at the very same time, you need to not disrupt civilians.

[Sagar and Krystal]

The job of a soldier.

[Ashley Kinetic]

No, but see, that's really not just.

[Sagar and Krystal]

To give you a specific, which is part of why you want good JAG officers to advise you on the rules of war and to make sure you're not just blanket massacring civilians, which did happen at times. I mean, one of the guys that he went to bat for, which is the one that I said his men turned him in, he instructed them to fire on a group of civilians that they knew were civilians and after the fact tried to cover it up by saying, well, we weren't able after the fact to check them for weapons, so we really don't know. So again, it was his own, like the soldiers who were serving under him who did not want to execute that order because they knew it was just a slaughter of civilians, civilians who turned him in. And then he's found guilty, and Hegseth advocates for him, goes to the mat, gets Trump to pardon him, even though it was quite clear. And again, he was found guilty by a jury of his peers, turned in by his own men, that he had just gone out and slaughtered civilians. So I don't think that that's acceptable. I don't think that's the way that we should be conducting ourselves. I don't think that that helped. That type of just brutality towards civilians helped us either in Iraq and Afghanistan. Of course, we never should have been there in the first place. And the fact that Pete Hegseth was in favor of the Iraq war long after even some of Hillary Clinton and some of the most dynamical neocons had said this wasn't A great idea does not really particularly recommend him. So the other thing I would say about the chair of the Joint Chiefs here, who I don't have a lot of specific knowledge about him. I know Hagseth in his book didn't really offer a lot of analysis about why he suspected that he wasn't sort of of deserving or meritorious of this particular position. It seemed to be just an assumption like, well, he's black so he must not deserve it. But putting that aside, that's not true. But I think it probably is true.

[Ashley Kinetic]

I think it's pretty clear. Okay, for example, anyone names Single things T.Q. brown did before he was.

[Sagar and Krystal]

But Sagari, here's the thing, here's the thing. I think it's very difficult to argue that the guy that they're putting in now is there out of quote, unquote, quote merit. I mean, it's really clear Trump is putting him in place because he thinks he's a Trump MAGA diehard who will do whatever he wants. And I'm not just talking about executing his lawful orders with regard to Syria or whatever. I'm talking about even if he wants to use the military in ways that would be unconstitutional, unlawful and yes, fascist, that this would be the guy who would greenlight those sorts of things. And to bolster that point, point, Trump has long been telling stories about this guy claiming he put on a MAGA hat and said, I love you sir. I think you're great, sir. I'll kill for you, sir. He actually has to get a waiver in order to be elevated to this position because he doesn't meet the technical qualifications you are supposed to have for this job. So the idea, this is just about merit. I think it's kind of preposterous. I think it's preposterous in many of the positions.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Now we worship at the altar of four star generalship and say, oh well, he's not a four star general.

[Sagar and Krystal]

I'm just saying, I'm saying that if you're trying to argue that he's being put in place because of merit, I think that is relatively preposterous on it.

[Ashley Kinetic]

What I am arguing is that I don't care about the. I don't think most people care either whether somebody is, quote, like check all the boxes of having satisfied military bureaucracy up to the four star level so that they can get their nice little stamp of approval for joint Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. By the way, CQ Brown will be just fine if you have Raytheon or Lockheed literally tomorrow, okay? So we all know how that works. Now I'm not gonna dispute. I don't actually know a ton about this new guy. I've been trying to read about Cain, but why don't we play the clip of Trump talking about Kaine before we weigh in? Let's take a listen. A general, another general, a colonel, a.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Staff sergeant could be in any movie. These guys are just like perfect. They're like perfect individuals.

[Ashley Kinetic]

If I were casting a movie on the military, I would pick these guys. There's nobody you could hire in Hollywood that looks like this. So I walked down and this is where I met General Raisin. Came and.

[Sagar and Krystal]

What's your name, General? What's your name?

[Ashley Kinetic]

And he gave me his name. What's your name, Sergeant?

[Sagar and Krystal]

Yes, sir.

[Ashley Kinetic]

And I love you, sir. I think you're a great sir. I'll kill for you, sir.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Then he puts on a Make America great again hat. You're not allowed to do that. But they did. I remember I went into the hangar and there were a lot of. There were hundreds of troops and they're.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Not supposed to do this, but they.

[Sagar and Krystal]

All put on the Make America great again.

[Ashley Kinetic]

So that's what Trump has said.

[Sagar and Krystal]

There's his qualification for the job. I mean you can't deny like this is what. This is why Trump picked.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Do I think Trump is Mr. Merritt and wants all of this stuff? No. Do I think that Pete Hegseth and them do? Yes. Actually they have a much longer track record of being against military bureaucracy, of restoring the Pentagon to its singular purpose and to counter what you were talking about earlier. Cause I think this is very important is you were saying that's the job of a soldier. The problem is that we made that the job of the soldier when it's not actually the job. The job of the soldier is to win and to fight a war. It's the job of the State Department and of the presidents and others to not put people in a situation which is actually counter to the their job description. Should 19 year olds from Topeka really be negotiating tribal warfare between. Absolutely not.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Well, again, that's the problem with the entire mission back to. You're right, obviously we should never have been there at all, period. But when you look at a track record of judgment, Pete Hegseth has had a very bad one. He was wrong about Iraq, he was wrong about Afghanistan, he was wrong about Ukraine. Up until very recently at least. He's one of the things. If you're looking for someone who. But you know, what matters most is that you took the correct position when it was hard to do, when it was unpopular, when it didn't serve your political and career interests. He does not have a track record of that. He has a track record of being, I wanna go in even more. I wanna send even more people in. I wanna go to even go get us involved in even more wars. So I certainly don't trust him on that front. But yes, once you're there, part of the job of the soldier is to try to protect the civilian populations that are in the area.

[Ashley Kinetic]

They certainly did. I'm not arguing that they shouldn't have. What I'm saying is the reason why they felt. This is the thing again that people need to remember. The rules of engagement would change on an almost yearly basis in Afghanistan as to whatever the political mission was. First it was light up the Taliban, then it was McChrystal K came in, then Obama fires McChrystal and it changes again literally on a year by year basis. The type of shots that you could take were completely up in the air. They'd have to call up to the chain of command. They had no idea what they were doing. There's a book Jake Tapper wrote. There's a movie as well. I think I'm blanking on the name at the outpost. That's what it is. People should watch it. In terms of what it actually was like for people when they're getting ambushed within those rules of engagement now, obviously none of them would dispute they're want to protect the civilian population. That's not it at all. As far as the Gallagher case, I recommend there's a book called Alpha about Eddie Gallagher. It's very anti Eddie Gallagher. If you want the case for why he should have been convicted, there's a lot of stuff online that you can go and read against it. It's a lot more complicated than people think. I will say that in terms of whether he should have been convicted or not, I'm still up in the air in terms of what I've read about the case. But the point that I come back to to is that if you're gonna get into a war, and this was what the Vietnam people would often say too, is if we're gonna get into a war, then we have to be able to fight. Now, I don't think we should have gotten in those wars in the first place and we should if before we light it up. If it's not capable, if you're not capable to win purely through military means, then you should not be fighting in the first Place you shouldn't turn these people into these quasi diplomats, but then at the same time tell them that they're war fighters. And I think that gets to the actual crux of Hegsett's ideology, just in terms of everything. I've listened to the guy, and I can't say I disagree with him at all, which is don't get involved if you're not going to do it the way that you're supposed to do it.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Yeah, but I just fundamentally dispute the idea that, like, if we had had more gloves off and killed more, I think it had more collateral damage, then it would have gone better for us in Iraq and Afghanistan, I think.

[Ashley Kinetic]

No, you're exactly right.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Polar opposite of the case. But that is Pete Hexth's position, is that we should have been. Wore gloves off. I mean, the case I'm talking about, this guy knew these were civilians, and he was like, kill them. And tried to cover it up after the fact, hide the weapons. Like, we weren't able to go and check and see if they had weapons so that they could have plausible deniability that they just mass murdered civilians. And it was not, you know, it was actually the people who were lower on the totem pole, who were probably less experienced, who were like, this was wrong. And by the way, just one last thing on this, and we can get into this last piece with regard to the dude who's now the chair of the Joint Chiefs. Those rules are not just put in place for protecting other civilians. It's also put in place so that our war fighters can live with themselves afterwards, so that they can come home and be able to go back to a normal life and not be completely traumatized by the things that they did. And, you know, inevitably, when you have humans killing other humans, it's going to be a horrific and traumatizing experience. No doubt about that. But if you feel like you conducted yourself honorably and that the, you know, expectation was you were just killing the bad guys, you weren't just going out and like, murdering whatever civilians happened into your path because some psycho who was above you was ordering you to do that, like, that's also protection for our own soldiers. And I don't think, you know, I. I think the firing of these JAG officers, the top lawyers in these three services indicates, you know, he has no respect for that whatsoever. Obviously, that's what he's written in the past. And I also think, you know, again, that the overall program here, yes, it may be something about the bureaucracy and making sure that Even the lawful orders are properly executed. Fine. But I think at core, as judging by the way Trump himself describes who he's put in here, it really is about making sure this is someone who will do whatever I say. No matter what it is, whether it is legal or illegal or somewhere in between, they're going to execute on my orders. And the last piece of this is. This is pulled. So this is kind of weird. Just put this out there. Make of it what you will. The new guy who got put in, Dan Cain, he had just retired from the military, so they're pulling him back out of. And I'm talking about, like, just retired in January, immediately after he retires. Oh, look at how he gets snatched up by three different crypto firms. One of them in particular, Thrive Capital, was founded by Jared Kushner's brother Joshua, had an investment by Peter Thiel, and also led a funding round for OpenAI in 2024. And so, you know, the other thing that Trump gets out of putting selecting this individual for this, this position is number one. I mean, how much money did he make while he was there? Like, is he now responsible for sort of like his financial security? But certainly he would never have ascended to anything like this level in terms of his career. He had just retired without Trump. So he owes Trump everything, is what I'm trying to say. And so that, again, speaks to this part of, I want you to be loyal no matter what I ask you to do. And I think he feels like with Dan Cain, that's what he's getting.

[Ashley Kinetic]

So, Cain, first of all, I will just say this. This is not a pro Kane argument. They all go out and join crypto cybersecurity firms and or prime contractors after that. So he's not particularly.

[Sagar and Krystal]

Are they all started by Jared Kushner's brother, however, Thrive Capital?

[Ashley Kinetic]

Yes. Does Joshua Kushner own a stake in Thrive? But this is what I'm saying in terms of, if you look at the board seats for all of these people, what's the first thing that they all go out and do? And by the way, Jim Mattis literally was on the board of Theranos, if we all recall. So to show. Just to show folks how this all works, Atreus is at KKR Capital.

[Sagar and Krystal]

I could go on forever. It's an accident that he gets snatched up and hired. And who knows how much money he makes in this short period of time from a firm that is connected both to Peter Thiel and to Jared Kushner.

[Ashley Kinetic]

I actually don't think it's the Thiel connection. Everything I've been able to read is that Trump met this guy six years ago in Iraq and was like, man, I just love this guy.

[Sagar and Krystal]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that this means that. So he retires, he has a short window of time to go on the private sector and make bank. And guess who shows up at his door to be like, we will pay you. We don't know how much. However much happens to be Jared Kushner's brother's firm, that's not an accident.

[Ashley Kinetic]

I honestly don't think it's nearly as intentional as you think. I think literally all of these guys, especially cuz he's a former Air Force person and work flu F16, is going to go join some space like firm. They all have them on the payroll. This is not a defense of him per se. This is the entire general office class. This is the problem.

[Sagar and Krystal]

It's just an accident that it's Kushner's brother's firm that happens to give him this.

[Ashley Kinetic]

I don't think it's a quote unquote accident or whatever. I don't know if they necessarily picked him because they thought he was going to be the next chairman. Again, everything I have read is that Trump is obsessed with this dude because of his quote, can do attitude from a visit to Iraq six years ago. Maybe because they knew that Trump liked him, they hired him. So I can't rule that out per se, but everything I've been able to see from his background is he joined that main firm apparently that was paying him was this cybersecurity firm in Washington that seems to be like the major source of his funds. I'm not defending any of this. I think it's gross. And this is the problem I have with all of this is the bureaucratization, the corporate basically fusing of the entire general officer. So whoever this guy is, I would really hope that you at least don't keep that ethos whenever you're at the top. But I'm not naive in terms of who and why he got picked. But I don't think that the connection is as solid as people are trying to make.

[Sagar and Krystal]

I just think it's very convenient that this man now owes both his career and his wealth to Trump and the Trump family.

[Ashley Kinetic]

Okay, but this is where I'm just don't. Well, first of all, I mean, not really like Joshua Kushner basically denounced his own brother whenever he was in the White House. And who was he married to? The supercarli kloss or something like that, who was putting out anti Trump stuff. I don't think the connection is as close as you're making it out to be. But again, this is the problem with the systemic corruption around here. Like, did people really care when Lloyd. Did Democrats really care when Lloyd Austin literally coming from prime contractors back into the Defense Secretary? Not really. CQ Brown, he'll be employed tomorrow by probably the same type of people here because of his past experience. So I just don't think that people have a huge leg to stand on in terms of pointing out corruption.

[Sagar and Krystal]

It's not just about the corruption, it's about the direct family. So if we're, if my case is he's put in there because of loyalty and if you have been responsible not only for the career elevation, which is very, you know, again, he has to get a waiver to even get put in this position. He had retired. Very unusual. Come back out of retirement. Like, like Trump, he owes Trump his career. And you have this connection, family connection to his wealth. I'm just saying that if you owe that much to this one person, then that is another attempt to help guarantee that whatever it is that you wanna do in the future, this person is going to be loyal no matter what.

[Ashley Kinetic]

I see what you're saying. Yeah, I think that's probably fair. Although, I mean, he probably was picked for this exact reason. Was, specifically, of course.

[Sagar and Krystal]

But this isn't guaranteed.

[Ashley Kinetic]

I mean, I just would say it's not like any person who serves as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs is ever hard up for money. Literally ever. If you go look at all these spaces, you don't need Peter Thiel or Joshua Kushner to cut you a check. There's oceans of money here in Northern Virginia to be made for all of them. So I don't think it's nearly as clear cut. And you know, people are gonna say that I'm defending this guy. I'm just pointing out how disgusting this entire system is. Every single, basically one star Onward becomes a multimillionaire within a year after they resign through these boards, through whatever Fox News or CFR contracts and all of this. And unfortunately, it is par for the course that we have here. And again, I just don't think that these people have much leg to stand on when their literal heroes are doing the exact same thing. So it's like, okay, you're arguing within a broken system. The next Democratic president is almost certainly going to pick somebody who was also on the board of Lockheed or whatever. It's a systemic problem that we have, and it just makes it probably more cynical in terms of the war over, like who's really corrupt? Because easily people can point out that it's everyone.

[Sagar and Krystal]

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[Ashley Kinetic]

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[Sagar and Krystal]

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[Ashley Kinetic]

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[Sagar and Krystal]

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[Ashley Kinetic]

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[Ashley Kinetic]

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[Sagar and Krystal]

Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.