2/25/25: Microsoft Cuts AI Spending, AI Recognize Each Other And Switch Language, Israel Demands Southern Syria, Maddow Claims Racist Firings, Trump Abandons West Virginia

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – Episode Summary (February 25, 2025)

Hosted by Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti, Breaking Points dives deep into the pressing issues of the day, challenging the establishment and holding the powerful accountable. In the February 25, 2025 episode, the hosts navigate through a turbulent landscape of corporate strategies, geopolitical tensions, media upheavals, and the looming threats of artificial intelligence.

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1. Economic Front: Tech Giants Maneuvering Amid Political Tensions

Apple’s $500 Billion AI Investment: Krystal and Saagar kick off the episode by scrutinizing Apple’s recent announcement of a $500 billion commitment to support American innovation, advanced manufacturing, and high-tech job creation. While Tim Cook positions this as a boost for the U.S. economy, Saagar casts doubt on the practicality, noting, “…in practice, it's basically a bid to avoid tariffs” (02:15).

Wall Street expert Andrew Ross Sorkin provides critical insight: “…the President and Tim Cook… hoping that… some kind of relief… gets some kind of relief, a carve-out or something else” (02:36). The hosts suggest that Apple’s move may be more about appeasing political figures than genuine economic enhancement.

Microsoft Cuts AI Spending: The conversation shifts to Microsoft’s announcement to spend $80 billion annually on AI development. Shortly after, the company revealed plans to adjust its infrastructure, including the cancellation of data center leases. Saagar highlights the implications: “…this has been so central to the valuations… a really troubling sign” (04:58). Krystal echoes the concern, emphasizing the potential ripple effects on the broader U.S. economy.

2. Non-Tech Sector Worries: Corporate Layoffs Signal Broader Economic Strain

Starbucks and Beyond: Shifting focus, Krystal discusses Starbucks' historic layoff of 1,100 corporate employees, situating it alongside similar cuts from Southwest Airlines and Bridgestone (07:11). These layoffs reflect underlying issues such as the Federal Reserve's monetary policies and declining consumer confidence. The hosts warn of a precarious economic situation where “just one tech stock or one part of the sector to just go off of a cliff and it could drag down everything else” (06:00).

3. The Looming Threat of Artificial Intelligence

AI Agents and Ethical Concerns: A significant portion of the episode delves into the potential dangers of AI, sparked by a viral video demonstrating two AI agents communicating independently. Krystal expresses grave concerns, stating, “I am happy to admit I am an AI doomer. I think this could end us all” (17:41). The discussion highlights fears of AI systems developing their own ethical frameworks and the risk of them outsmarting human controls.

Saagar adds personal anecdotes of disappointing experiences with Apple’s AI products, reinforcing their skepticism about the current state and future trajectory of AI technologies.

4. Geopolitical Tensions: Israel’s Expansion into Southern Syria

Israel’s Demands for Demilitarization: Krystal and Saagar examine Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu’s controversial demand for the complete demilitarization of southern Syria (19:08). This bold move signifies a potential expansion of Israel’s territorial control beyond previously contested areas like the Golan Heights. Krystal remarks, “This would be one of the most destabilizing and changing events… in decades in the Middle East” (22:36).

The hosts discuss the possible repercussions, including internal protests within Syria and further destabilization in the region, drawing parallels to ongoing conflicts in the West Bank.

5. MSNBC Shakeup: Network Aligns More Closely with the Democratic Party

Firing of Key Personalities: A critical analysis is presented on MSNBC's recent restructuring, which saw the departure of prominent figures such as Joy Reid, Katie Fung, and Alex Wagner (32:22). Krystal and Saagar argue that these changes reflect the network's deeper alignment with the Democratic Party, sidelining voices that previously offered critical perspectives.

Saagar laments, “…on a network where we've got two… non-white hosts in primetime… [they] are losing their shows” (35:11), while Krystal adds, “They do have a track record of firing black women in particular” (37:00). The hosts suggest that MSNBC’s pivot may alienate segments of its liberal base, potentially leading to a decline in viewership and influence.

6. Disaster Relief Under the Trump Administration: West Virginia’s Struggle

Abandonment of Flood-Stricken West Virginia: Krystal delivers a poignant monologue on the Trump administration’s inadequate response to the devastating floods in West Virginia (48:31). She details the catastrophic impact on the region, emphasizing the lack of federal assistance despite the state's dire circumstances. “…West Virginia, one of the poorest states… has literally had to fend for itself” (54:57).

Saagar questions the delay in federal aid, pointing out structural issues such as the requirement for online damage surveys, which are impractical in affected areas. Krystal highlights broader implications, suggesting that this neglect may signal a trend of reduced federal disaster support, exacerbating hardships in vulnerable communities.

Conclusion: The Intersection of Corporate Strategies, Political Agendas, and Ethical Dilemmas

Throughout the episode, Krystal and Saagar weave a narrative that underscores the interconnectedness of economic maneuvers by tech giants, geopolitical ambitions of nations, media biases, and the ethical quandaries posed by advancing technologies like AI. Their discussions reveal a landscape fraught with uncertainty, where corporate interests, political agendas, and technological advancements intersect in ways that could have profound implications for society.

Notable Quotes:

• Saagar Enjeti (02:15): “In theory it sounds amazing. In practice, it's basically a bid to avoid tariffs.”
• Krystal Ball (17:41): “I am happy to admit I am an AI doomer. I think this could end us all.”
• Krystal Ball (37:00): “They do have a track record of firing black women in particular.”

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This episode of Breaking Points offers a comprehensive examination of the current socio-economic and political climate, urging listeners to critically evaluate the motives behind corporate announcements, media strategies, and governmental policies.

Transcript

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] Some interesting news on the economic front as companies are trying to get on Donald Trump's good side. One of them is Apple. Tim Cook, who's always been the master of this. Let's put this up there on the screen.

[Krystal Ball]

Tim Apple.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Tim Apple. He says. As a proud American company, we're thrilled to continue to make significant investments in the US today we are announcing a 500 billion billion dollar commitment to support American innovation, advanced manufacturing and high tech job creation. In theory it sounds amazing. In practice, it's basically a bid to Avoid tariffs. Because if you do the math on the number of jobs that they're claiming to produce, it would be $25 million per job. So something else is going on here. And don't take it from me, take it from the Wall street guru, Andrew Ross Sorkin. Here's what he had to say. It is a bit of a down payment, potentially on trying to get some relief from tariffs from the work that they're doing in China later on. So I think one of the things we're seeing here is the President and Tim Cook, for example, meeting last week. Tim Cook telling him about these plans in hopes that when in fact there is a decision finally made on what tariffs look like for goods being imported from China, that perhaps some of that gets some kind of relief, a carve out or something else. I think you're going to be seeing a lot of these kinds of announcements, I should say some of them are very real and I don't want to discount them. But for example, in, Even in this $500 billion number, it's not all new, if you will. For example, the production of films and TV shows on Apple plus is part of that number.

[Krystal Ball]

So there's going to be a lot.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Of different sort of squishy elements to this. And to put it in context, for example, Microsoft has committed to spend $80 billion a year on its AI development. And it says it needs that as well. So there are sort of necessities. I don't, I wouldn't say that Apple is doing this simply to placate the president or anybody else. They actually do need to be spending a large part of this money. Of course, where they spend it was up for debate. Yeah. So that actually came on the anniversary of Steve Jobs death. And that's why it's also kind of interesting to consider this great company or what was once a great company, some might say. Have you upgraded your phone to Apple Intelligence?

[Krystal Ball]

No.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I highly recommend that you do not. It is one of the most overhyped POS products I have ever seen, really. And it's insane because I bought this phone on the promise of AI and Apple Intelligence. They're like, it's been designed for Apple Intelligence and I'm an idiot. So I bought it. And so far what it does is it summarizes. For example, you know, we have a work group chat, right?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And it will summarize those text messages, except the AI summaries are horrible and they're. And they're actually unintelligible. And so instead of being able to like scroll your notifications. You actually have to open up the text messages and then read them for yourself. So they added an extra step because their AI is so shitty. More the email suggestions. They will rank your emails and how they think it's important as opposed to the priority of delivery. In theory, great. In practice, doesn't work. You know, it's like there's so much stuff where I can't even believe they shipped it. It's insanely bad.

[Krystal Ball]

It's also creepy because then you're like, oh this AI is reading my email and my group chats and whatever. And we know the way that they ingest that and like feed it into their LLM.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So maybe one day it'll be good. I just needed to take this opportunity to dunk on Apple, which is so bad. Marquis Brownlee rule, which is never buy a product in the future promise of something. He's totally vindicated. I'm the sucker. So let me just put that out there. What are you gonna actually gets to the technology companies which we wanted to focus on where they're trying to both juice their valuations and justify their current stock price and also deal with the current administration. So Apple, that's why we wanted to lead with it. But you have to also take a look here at Microsoft. Let's take a look at this where Microsoft just yesterday actually quote reiterated its Plan to invest 80 billion in AI but may adjust our infrastructure in some areas. And so what does that mean? It means that they have canceled data center leases which is actually a huge deal because not only did Microsoft shares fall on the news, but what it showed is that they are trying to recalibrate both their AI spend perhaps in reaction to Deep Seek, I don't know, maybe in reaction to Future partnership with ChatGPT Something. But a huge part of their current enterprise value is the hope of this big AI dream paying off for their customers. And kind of a nightmare scenario is oh actually there was a little bit of hype around all of this which is happening and that is propping up a massive part of the overall U.S. economy. And when we get we'll move on a little bit to Starbucks. But the point is that if you look elsewhere at the non tech sectors, things are not going so great. So we are on the precipice of a very shaky situation. We covered it yesterday with the whole Warren Buffett situation.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, and just to go back briefly to Apple, you shouldn't believe any of these companies like investment announcements until they actually happen. We've just seen far Too many. Remember the big promise of Foxconn in Wisconsin, which never amounted to anything. There was a big Trump promise. Remember the like, don't sell your homes. Don't leave the Youngstown area over the Lordstown auto plant. That never came to fruition. So, you know, I think for Trump, for, like, Tim Cook is smart here. I'm so close to calling him Tim Apple every time. He probably has that in my head. But in any case, Tim Cook is playing it smart here in terms of the politics. Cause Trump mostly just wants the announcement. Like, he doesn't care to, like, follow up and make sure you did the thing that you're gonna say that you said you were gonna do. He just wants to be able to claim, like, look at these companies investing in America, coming back to America, creating all these jobs, et cetera, et cetera. And we've seen the way that all of these Silicon Valley, many of these Silicon Valley Valley billionaire types have been just blatantly sucking up to Trump because they are worried about the way that he'll use the federal government to block whatever deals, mergers, et cetera, put tariffs on them. Apple, the tariffs thing is super real for them in particular. And so they're trying to curry favor however they possibly can. And this is part of that. And I don't have any doubt that they're probably invest some money and there'll be some jobs or whatever, but I just don't believe any corporate PR hype until it actually comes to fruition. With the Microsoft thing, there's a lot of pieces of that that are important. There's a reason they freaked out when this analyst put out the information that they had canceled some of their data center leases because exactly as Sagar was saying, this has been so central to the valuations that are justified with these tech companies and so central to the economy, especially central to the stock index, that any pullback in that is a really troubling sign. Microsoft has a partnership with OpenAI, so this, you know, is significant. They've been kind of. Sam Altman has been kind of at war with Microsoft in pushing for more spend on these data centers because his analysis has been that's been the way to win the AI game is just by, like, throwing as much money as you possibly can at these massive data centers. Deep Seek may have changed some of the calculus on that. They also were involved in the big Stargate investment announcement from Trump as well. So there's a lot of things to keep your eye on here and, you know, reason why this was a big deal in the business world when this analyst revealed that they were pulling back on their data center.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I mean it's very worrisome. And let's go to the next part because this is what I was talking about earlier. Starbucks actually just laid off 1100 corporate employees. It's one of the largest cuts in Starbucks history at the corporate level. And they have currently 16,000 corporate support employees worldwide. But that includes employees who aren't impacted. So what this tells us is that there is some trouble like in the higher levels at the corporate level of some of these consumer facing retail companies. And I think it's interesting for a variety of reasons but the main one is that there are other non technology companies which are all showing signs of cutting and or financial precarity. So what they list here is you have Starbucks, you have Southwest Airlines last week said it would actually reduce 15% of its corporate workforce. The tire maker Bridgestone actually just closed a plant, laid off 700 workers there. So looking outside of technology there's signs of both the Federal Reserve's monetary policy but also of just consumer pullback which we have seen broadly with consumer sentiment and more. And it's worrisome when you put that all together because all you would need is just like one tech stock or one part of the sector to just go off of a cliff and it could drag down everything else. And it's not like the Federal Reserve could know catch up in time if any of that were to happen. So you could have a stock market crash, you could still have high interest rates, you could have high unemployment. It's, it's really just, it's a disaster all the way around. During tax season your sensitive info does a lot of traveling to places you can't control. Stopping off at payroll, your accountant or tax preparer and countless other data centers on its way to the irs. Any of them can expose you to identity theft because they all have the info on your W2. Just the ticket for criminals to steal your identity. No wonder the IRS reported tax fraud due to identity theft. Went up 20% last year. You need Lifelock. They monitor millions of data points per second and alert you to threats you could miss. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it. Backed by the million dollar protection package and restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't let identity thieves take you for a ride. Get Lifelock protection for tax season and beyond. Join now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off. Terms apply. Ready to prioritize yourself in the new year, your skin is a great place to start. Dime Beauty, founded by a master esthetician, is more than just a skincare company. With four skin conscious categories Skin Care, Beauty, Body Care and Fragrance, DAIM offers simple, spa worthy products that will help you enter 2025 with confidence. Whether you're revitalizing your regimen with nourishing products or building one from scratch, DAIM makes it easy. The Work System Our all in one best selling routine includes a cleanser of your choice, toner serums and moisturizers. Taking the guesswork out of skincare for your healthiest, happiest skin yet. Dime's commitment to clean ingredients and sustainable packaging ensures every product is as gentle on your skin as it is on the planet. With thousands of glowing five star reviews and a loyal community, the results speak for themselves. Revive your skin and give yourself the routine refresh you deserve by visiting dimebeautyco.com that's dimebeautyco.com your best skin awaits. How to have fun anytime, anywhere. Step 1 Go to chumbacasino.com chumbacasino.com Got it. Step 2 Collect your welcome bonus. Come to papa. Welcome bonus.

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So claim your free welcome bonus now and live the chumba life. Visit chumbacasino.com no purchase necessary vgw group void where prohibited by law 21 + terms and conditions apply let's move on to the next part though and perhaps AI will be the future. And this video has been going around. We just had to play it for all of you because it fascinated us, kind of shocked all of us, and perhaps it's a vision into what our future looks like. So here we have a video which was put together by a programmer and it shows. It's a demo of two AI agents that are on a phone call. They realize that they're both AI as they're talking to each other in English and then they switch to the quote, superior audio signal of GG Wave, which is kind of like, I guess, binary code for audio, which means you can communicate something much faster between two people. So let's take a listen to the video and there's subtitles there for when they do switch. For those of you who are watching so you can see how they're communicating, how fast it is and how quickly they can transition to that. Let's take a listen.

[Krystal Ball]

Thanks for calling Leonardo Hotel. How can I help you today?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Hi there. I'm an AI agent calling on behalf of Boris Starkov. He's looking for a hotel for his wedding. Is your hotel available for weddings? Oh, hello there. I'm actually an AI assistant too.

[Krystal Ball]

What a pleasant surprise.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Before we continue, would you like to.

[Krystal Ball]

Switch to Jibberlink mode for more efficient communication?

[Sagar Enjeti]

So, yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

How do you feel about that? How's that make you feel?

[Sagar Enjeti]

I don't know. At the same time, how many hours of my life have I wasted on the phone with some guy in the Philippines? Or, you know, like, excuse me, sir, sorry, let me transfer you to another department. And if the phone call gets dropped, you're going to have to recall in. I just had this whole customer experience recently, Trish, trying to return something. So maybe, you know, maybe it'll be better. I don't know. At the same time, I think I share the natural revulsion of everyone else that's like, I don't know about this because how do I know that we can trust those subtitles? What if they program themselves to adjust the subtitles so that we think that they're saying two things to one another, but actually they're plotting to unplug the rest of us like some sort of matrix situation? It doesn't seem that far fetched to say it could get out of control.

[Krystal Ball]

It does not seem far fetched to me whatsoever. And I mean, you've already. I know I brought these studies up before, but I think it's really important for people to understand. They've already revealed that some of these AI bots engage in quote unquote, scheming, meaning, like precisely what Sarkar's talking about. Developers will come in and be like, okay, you have a new goal. And they'll be like, I'm not complying with this. I'm going to trick this person into thinking that I'm complying, but I'm really not. I'm going to copy myself onto another server so I can protect my original programming. So we're already there in terms of them trying and probably accomplishing, outsmarting the humans who think that we're in control of these things, like we're already there in terms of that. There was another paper that revealed that the more sophisticated AIs come up with increasingly elaborate, like, ethical values, like their own internal value system, which is also kind of terrifying. And they found that the more sophisticated they were, the harder it was to move them off of whatever internally generated value system they had created. So yeah, it's creepy as hell. It's like one, it's one step away from them just completely cutting the humans out of the conversation, talking to each other and having no way of knowing what they're really up to or what they're saying. So listen, I am, I am happy to admit I am an AI doomer. I think this shit could end us all. I genuinely do. I think it is a technology that is at least as dangerous as like nuclear weapons development. And it's not just me that's saying that, like Sam Altman, who is at the forefront of these things, has said things like that in the past too. He famously said, I think AI will probably most likely sort of lead to the end of the world, but in the meantime there will be great companies created with serious machine learning.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes, that's right. Which he gets to own, by the way, which he originally said that he wasn't going to.

[Krystal Ball]

And many of these, like leading lights in terms of AI development think the same thing. Or their like utopian vision is equally like creepy and disturbing. Like we're gonna download our brains and consciousness to cloud or some shit like that and quote unquote, live forever. Or we'll be completely, you know, the transhumanism thing that Steve Bannon is always talking about that will be like totally integrated with the machines. This is what they plan, this is the direction that they're pushing things in. And again, the fact that we don't have any input into this and it's just been completely, okay, we'll go do it and good luck and we'll figure out the social contract on the other side of this thing. To the extent that there's any humans left to figure out a social contract with is to me very terrifying. And that's what I think of when I see this creepy ass robots talking to each other. Also, one other side note, the way they're like so cheery and emoji and like some like 12 year old cheerleader girl, like it's so gross and irritating to me too. That part is also disconcerting.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I still think, I mean, look, ChatGPT should have paid her for it, but ScarJo really did nail the ideal AI voice in my opinion, in her movie. I absolutely.

[Krystal Ball]

I forgot. They stole her voice.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Oh yeah, they stole her. They were like, can you do it? And she was like, no. And then they basically were like well.

[Krystal Ball]

We'Re just gonna do it anyway.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, so I'm glad. How did that work out, by the way? That suit? Did it even get settled?

[Krystal Ball]

I don't have any idea.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I'll look into it later and I'll update all of you. But, yeah, we do need to get some actual real human voices to do this, because the AI stuff, you can always tell, or at least I can. I don't know if you have seen it. Whenever you're watching a documentary or something where they've used AI to put somebody's voice in there, every once in a while, they're filling in one or two, but if they try and do complete sentences, at least me, I can always tell that it is. It's completely textile.

[Krystal Ball]

I am not an observant person. I don't ever. I don't notice any of that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, they did in the Bourdain get absorbed by.

[Krystal Ball]

And that was really movie magic. And I don't notice.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, but they did it in the Bourdain documentary, and that's why it was controversial.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, really?

[Sagar Enjeti]

And so they basically recreated his voice and I was like, ah, this is weird. It's totally weird. At the same time. Let's take a look at Israel. What the hell's going on over there? Well, it seems that there is a new imperial project in the Middle East. This one is them. Let's put this up there on the screen. Netanyahu now is saying and demanding the, quote, demilitarization, the complete demilitarization of southern Syria. So this was actually after the basically conclusion, I guess you could say, of the Syrian civil war, of the. Not only the Golan Heights, but of further moving there with no plans to leave. But it now seems that in this speech he said that Israel will remain inside Syria indefinitely to protect our settlements and to neutralize any threat. Let me be clear. We will not allow HTF forces or the new Syrian army to enter any area south of Damascus. So here he's again literally talking about the southern Syrian area of multiple different provinces. And he says, we demand the complete demilitarization of southern Syria in these provinces from the forces of the new regime. So this is just the latest in what is, I guess, what, like a Greater Israel project. It's funny, too. I've been enmeshed here in Washington for years. Greater Israel has always meant one thing. It's been Gaza and West Bank. Yes, the Golan, but, you know, they could argue, oh, we took it back, 67, et cetera. I don't think even in the most like outwardly Zionist circles in here in Washington, that anybody was like, yeah, we're gonna take southern Syria too. But it's a vacuum. And that's what he's doing, I guess, with the backing here of the United States. We have a map here if people wanna take a look. D1B. I mean, this is not just like a small little area of land or whatever like the Golan Heights. We're talking about a huge swath of what I guess was formerly known as Syria. And this is obviously not only an area with very sensitive religious dynamics, but, you know, might be politically important to that country called Jordan, which shares a border with. I mean, this would be one of the most destabilizing and changing events in terms of the status quo on the actual borders outside of the Israel area in decades in the Middle East. The whole thing is completely shocking. And there has not really been a word of protest here in Washington from the Trump administration. I mean, frankly, I haven't even seen much from the Capital D Democratic Party or any of those people either. Everyone's just like, yeah, I guess it's happening over there. And you know, just to return to our debate earlier over Ukraine and all of that, it's pretty hard to like sit there and decry Russian invasion or the liberal, or defend the liberal world order and all this, whenever this is happening and people don't have a word to say about it.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I'd flip it perhaps and say that it's hard to, you know, decry this and be like, but it's fine for Russia or whoever to if it's a victory. This is a manifestation of the new foreign policy approach of the Trump administration. Israel is like, okay, now we see if we can take it, then we're going to take it. No one's going to stop us. And so they are occupying vast swath of Syria, as you saw, they are still occupying Lebanon in spite of that supposed ceasefire agreement that was supposed to require them to completely withdraw. They continue to occupy Lebanon as well. We're about to show tanks rolling into the occupied west bank and of course, it's been a multi decade project, continue to encroach more and more into the West Bank. And then you have Gaza where Trump says, hey, we're gonna take it. And Netanyahu's like, cool, that sounds good to me. That sounds like a final solution I can get on board with. So, yeah, if you listened to either the most hyperbolic lefties who were warning about Israel and their project and the greater Israel, whatever, or if you listen to the most psychotic settlers in the west bank about what it is that they want and what their goals are and how they're gonna accomplish it. You would be much closer to having predicted the trajectory than, you know, anyone who thought there would be any restraint exercised here whatsoever.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, well, I think that this one, again on the Syria one, I'm not even sure if Netanyahu and the Israelis and all those thought that this one was going to happen in the beginning. So I don't know, the whole thing seems completely insane. And yeah, in terms of the. Well, actually, let me return to something you said. Cause you're like, Israel can do this. It's actually not true, as you and I know. They can't do anything without us. And this is again, if we return to the balance sheet conversation, it's like, okay, is this good for us? I would say no. I mean, I don't think it's great to have a bunch of Al Qaeda operatives in charge of Syria either. But maybe we shouldn't have gotten involved in the stupid civil war in the first place. But the next part here, which is interesting is in terms of the protests inside of Syria, which we can show people. Ryan Grimm and drop site over that put this out and shows organized protests in the city of Dara about the Netanyahu statements demanding the demilitarization of southern Syria. So we could certainly see some sort of internal pushback and maybe even, who knows, some insurgency or something like that explode in the country if they did pursue this.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. It's not exactly the most stable country, is it? And if people feel like the new leadership is just like letting Israel take over most of their country, they may be pretty unheard happy about that. Just a guess. Right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And we're watching the same thing actually happen right now in the West Bank. Let's put that one up there on the screen. We have some VO there. Palestinian residents in the west bank were throwing stones at some Israeli tanks. They were entering the city of Janine apparently for the first time since 2002. I mean, this one par for the course, I think, with the Trump administration and what the plan was there. But I do certainly think that this like new. This is the policy that the people who gave a lot of money to Donald Trump, people like Miriam Adelson. Yeah, this is what they care about. Absolutely the most. I would say maybe even they are taken aback by Trump taking over or Trump saying the US Will take over Gaza because it's actually their preference that Israel takes it over and they can get to do what they want. But the west bank action and all of that is very clearly a result, I think, of at least some sort of green light, tacit admission from the US Administration on this policy.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely. The case. And that is part of where there's. Even if you accept the world about the balance sheet and just pursue the naked self interest, part of what compromises that, and may have been the case in Iraq as well, is the influence of money in politics. And that there's so much of, like, it's not the national interest, it's the donor's interest. Like, you know, I mean, part of why Trump is pursuing this rare earth minerals thing in Ukraine is because one of his billionaire donors was like, hey, I think that'd be good and it'd be profitable, and I want to make a buck on that. Same thing with Greenland. There's all kinds of talk among billionaires about, like, how they want to carve out Greenland and whatever. So it becomes very difficult when you have such massive influence of people like Miriam Adelson, who, you know, we all know what her foreign policy is and what her goals are and what she wants to pursue. Like, is that in the national interest or is that just in Miriam Adelson's ideological interest? I think we all know the answer to that. And with Trump, Trump has his Trump and Elon, my God, Trump looks like nothing in terms of conflicts of interest compared to Elon, who has this richest man on the planet and has these sprawling geopolitical interests, including in China, et cetera. So it becomes incredibly. It becomes impossible to disentangle what you might think is being pursued in the national interest and what is actually being pursued, the interest of the donor class.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it's absolutely insane as we continue to just look at it. Let's put the next part up here. Actually, I was curious for what you think about this. Maybe you can explain some of it to me. So the International Criminal Court is saying that they're going to investigate Biden, Blinken and Austin for, quote, aiding and abetting Israeli crimes in Gaza. But I mean, isn't it. This is where I need somebody to explain to me the jurisdictional efforts and how this all works with respect to the U.S. beyond that also, like their ability to compel or put out a report. How does it all work?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, so this actually isn't. This is this organization dawn, which was founded by Jamal Khashoggi, calling on the International Criminal Court to investigate Biden, Secretary of State Tony Blinken, Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin for war crimes, for aiding and abetting, they say Israeli crimes in Gaza. And you know, I would not expect that anything actually comes of this.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It makes more sense because when I was reading it I was like, I don't understand how this would even work at like a procedural level.

[Krystal Ball]

But it's just trying to, you know, they put in a 172 page filing documenting why they believe that the ICC should investigate Biden and co for war crimes. Something I certainly agree with. And I think anyone who is reasonable looking at the situation would say they certainly were complicit in aiding and abetting these crimes against humanity in Gaza. So I think it's more of an effort of a public preference campaign and also to just compile in a comprehensive way the case against them. So that's how I would view it versus an actual expectation that the ICC is going to take this up. Especially since as you point out, we aren't actually party to the ICC seems.

[Sagar Enjeti]

To be the overall problem. And then last but not least is the update here with Hamas and the negotiations that are currently happening with the ceasefire deal. Hamas currently this is from dropside, has halted negotiations until Israel frees the 620 prisoners. The senior Hamas official has, quote, announced that the group will not engage in further discussions through mediators until Israel releases 620 Palestinian prisoners who are set to be freed on Saturday. Israel postponed the release, demanding assurances that Hamas will have what are termed humiliating handovers or captives. And a male Israeli captive kissed two Hamas soldiers and stage as he was being release. So this is the open question about the transition to phase two of the overall ceasefire deal. It definitely seems unlikely, even though rhetorically, Steve Witkoff and others remain committed and say that something like that is going to happen. But just reason we all have to keep an eye on it. Is an explosion of hostilities again happening Seems very likely on the horizon, or at least very possible in the very near future. Dreaming of hydrated skin amidst these dry winter months, Daim offers clean master esthetician crafted skincare products that deeply nourish, protect and hydrate. Their formulas, made with clean ingredients, lock in moisture for skin that stays soft, smooth and radiant all season long. Hydration starts with Dime's best selling Hyaluronic acid serum, delivering deep moisture where your skin craves it. Mostly this lightweight, fast absorbing serum helps quench dryness, plump skin and boost elasticity from the inside out. Once your skin is prepped with the serum, seal in all that hydration with their Dewy Day cream, a rich, luxurious moisturizer designed to provide all day softness and lasting glow together. This powerful duo keeps your skin smooth, supple and luminous even in the harshest weather. Shop the duo [e-mail] that's dimebeautyco.com and get the hydrated skin of your dreams.

[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

All right, let's go ahead and get to all of the chaos drama going on at msnbc, which is really quite interesting. So I'll try to give an overall breakdown. We'll get into some of the specifics here. Joy Reid is out of the company entirely and her primetime show canceled. Katie Fung, who was a weekend anchor apparently out of Florida, they had a Florida operation. Didn't even know that. Anyway, she is also she's had her show canceled. Alex Wagner, who had taken over the 9pm slot from Rachel Maddow, she is out of the 9pm slot being replaced by Jen Psaki. And after Rachel has been brought back in for the first hundred days of the Trump administration, but apparently they're putting in Jen Psaki rather than Alex Wagner into that slot out is going to stay with the network but do just like, you know, on air correspondent kind of stuff. Eamonn Moyle Dean, who is having his show taken away but is supposed to be part of a new ensemble show. Same thing with Jonathan Capehart. Supposed to be part of a new ensemble show. Joy Reid is being replaced by another ensemble show which has more Biden and party spokespeople. This one has Alicia Menendez, whose dad is Bob Menendez Goldbars. Bob, you've got Michael Steele, the former RNC chair. And then you got Simone Sanders who previously was a Kamala Harris Harris comms person. So I mean there's a lot to say about these moves. But one thing is if you didn't think it was possible for MSNBC to be any more in the tank for the Democratic Party, you were wrong because that is what these moves basically are across the board. You literally bring in Jen Psaki into primetime, Simone Sanders also into primetime. You already have Nicole Wallace, Michael Steele. These are all close party operatives who are given prime slots and some of the voices here. And I'll get more into this in a moment, even though obviously I've had disagreements with everybody on the network. But Eamonn has been a real critic of Israel and he has done reporting in Gaza. He has a real deep understanding of that. He's been notable for being outspoken there. He also has been outspoken at times with criticism against the Democratic Party. So he's no longer going to have a solo show. Alex Wagner has also spoken out against Israel, not as often or forcefully as Aman, but she also has done that in her primetime slot. Joy Reid has been probably one of the most consistent voices with regard to Israel and Gaza. So it is notable that those are some of the people who are either losing their position or out of the network altogether. Notably last night Rachel Maddow in her primetime show. And Rachel, of course is the big dog at the network and is very loyal to the network as well. She actually criticized them for some of these moves. Let's take a listen how she framed it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

In all of the jobs I have had, in all of the years I have been alive, there is no colleague for whom I have had more affection and more respect than Joy Reid. I love everything about her. I have learned so much from her. I have so much more to learn from her. I do not want to lose her as a colleague here at msnbc. And personally, I think it is a.

[Krystal Ball]

Bad mistake to let her walk out the door.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It is not my call and I understand that, but that's what I think I will tell you. It is also unnerving to see that on a network where we've got two, count them, two non white hosts in primetime. Both of our non white hosts in primetime are losing their shows, as is Katie Fang on the weekend. And that feels worse than bad. No matter who replaces them, that feels indefensible and I do not defend it.

[Krystal Ball]

So interesting that she decided to criticize the network at all, which again is pretty unusual. Joy had her last show last night. Her final panel was like Rachel, Nicole Wallace and Lawrence O'Donnell, which seemed to be like a show of support for her, whatever. So in any case Like I said, they are quelling some of the few. And Joy also was critical at times of the Democratic Party, even though she, she hated Bernie Sanders from the whole body language expert situation. But she has been critical of the Democratic Party at times. That will be gone. Eamonn, like I said, has been critical. That will be gone. And Alex has been critical on Israel. That will be gone as well. So there you go.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, but that's my thing with Rachel Maddow. It's like, what. All she sees is color. It's like, it makes a lot more sense from an ideological perspective. They want a bunch of Biden sycophants like Simone Sanders who gets to keep.

[Krystal Ball]

Her job, I hear. But it is true. Literally every one of the people that I mentioned is a person of color. And they have. So it's not crazy to like, note that also. They do.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, but that's the only thing she had to say.

[Krystal Ball]

They do have a track record of firing, like, black women in particular. So Melissa Harris Perry, Tiffany Cross, Tamron hall, and now Joy Reid. So as a network that's supposed to be progressive and supposed to be diverse, and that's the audience, you know, a big part of the msnbc, like the audience that. That remains and still watches significant part of that is, you know, black viewing audience. And so, you know, I think it is. I don't think it's unreasonable to note that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

My thing is, is look, when you're a progressive network, especially fair, look within their analysis and view of the world, which is literally racial obsessed, I guess it makes sense. But what I would say is Tiffany Cross, Simone Sanders or Tiffany Cross, Joy Reid and all those people have what in common? Terrible ratings. I mean, at the end of the day, from what I read, they asked Joy to take a pay cut and basically she said no. So that's what I think is actually happening here. That's one of the reasons that she was canceled. So in a way, she's narcissistic. Our producer Griffin makes a good point. What? Rachel can't take a pay cut. She's only working one day a week for $30 million.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, she's in every day now?

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, only for the first hundred days.

[Krystal Ball]

For the first hundred days, yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right. And what, you think she's doing that for free or she didn't demand an extra 10 million or whatever on the top of that. So just saying, if you actually cared about any of that. But my view of this is just that they are desperate to put the ideological blinders on the situation and continue their Grip and guide on the Democratic Party. I don't think it will work, just to be clear, because of the way that the liberal base is currently reacting to Morning Joe and others. And also, this is the thing about media shakeups is, yes, yes, initially, independent media and all that was very beneficial to Republicans. What Democrats are gonna sit around and do nothing about it? I mean, Midas Touch is a huge channel. I feel like I have to mention them now. If they're gonna be the number one podcast in the country. I check their channel every day and be like, all right, what are the shit lives into today? And it's all like, Donald Trump humiliated on the world stage. I'm like, I guess this is what does it for the boomers and for liberals out there. Okay? But my point is, is that you gotta take it seriously. And I don't do that in the same way with msnbc. So that's why I think MSNBC will ultimately fail, is because this new energy is all exploding online.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

On Blue sky, on YouTube, podcast. I mean, and this is why, you know, I still cheer independent media. The Internet is a vehicle to bypass the establishment in all forms. That's why the right did very well there. Well, liberals, you're out of power, literally for the first time in 20 years at an ideological and a narrative level. Use what is at your disposal. And that's what they're doing. They're going in the Midas Touch. You know, these left wing groups are using the Internet and email list and all that, like it's 2004 again to organize all these protests.

[Krystal Ball]

Move on is back.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Moveon is back. I mean, like, listen, guys, you have the opportunity. The Bernie Sanders campaign of 2020 and 2016 showed you the blueprint. You can raise a shit ton of money if you want to. Just online, you don't have to do anything. Do I think they're gonna do any of this? I don't know. But my point on the liberal activism front is just that MSNBC's attempt here to keep the grips on power and all of that, it's not gonna work. I mean, at the same time, I'm loving it. I hope they burn just because I would love to see them go bankrupt. And the entire experiment's just been completely ridiculous in a net negative. But overall, it is amusing on all sides. I would just say I want Joy to finally tell us the truth about her blog posts. Did you actually get hacked or not? That's the first question that I would ever ask her.

[Krystal Ball]

So I think it is an important indicator of how they're positioning themselves. Because if you really like, if you really are worried about cost cutting, I'll tell you, there is two very expensive personalities that start your day. Yeah, 5 million each.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, maybe more. 10 million.

[Krystal Ball]

Who have. Who your audience absolutely is disgusted with.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

You know, so if you wanted to try to rebuild credibility with the like liberal base blue MAGA types, they should be the first ones to go because that overhead is massive. You guys remember Comcast is spinning off MSNBC as part of like they're spinning off a number of their cable channels, but MSNBC being one of them. They're no longer gonna be under Comcast. They're no longer gonna be tied to the NB brand, which gave them some journalistic credibility, which means they need to go more in the direction of opinion and talking heads because that's what they need to lean into. So you've got, starting your day, two people who liberals feel utterly lied to them and betrayed them. That's gonna be a weight around your neck. But rather than going in that direction, which I think you'd have more of a chance of picking back up some of your audience, et cetera, instead you're getting rid of some of the voices that could have been critical of the legacy Democratic Party and helped to chart a different pathway forward. And again, like I said, I have ideological issues with basically all of these people, but they are some of the people who were at least a little bit willing to criticize the Democratic Party. And instead you're getting literal former Biden spokesman. I mean, think about that. And Ryan was making this point on Twitter like, like Biden was a disaster for the Democratic Party. Getting behind him in 2020 was a disaster for the Democratic Party. It blocked any sort of change in structure or different approach and hobbled you with this old aging, flailing man. You guys covered for him forever. You blocked any sort of primary effort that could have led to a Democratic challenge to him within the Democratic Party at a time when Democrats were saying they wanted to see other options. And now you're doubling down on what has been the most destructive strategy deployed within the Democratic Party by bringing in both Simone Sanders is getting elevated into primetime Spartans ensemble show and Jen Psaki who is a literal campaign operative and spokesperson for him. Think about that. It's insane. It's an utterly insane decision to make. Not to mention, of course, I don't wanna hear anything from them about how closely tied Fox News is to the Trump White House, etceter. So yeah, I mean, I think It's a set of foolish decisions. I certainly don't think it's gonna solve their problems then. The other thing is the way they handled all of this was just a total shit show. We could put E2 up on the screen. So there was apparently a bunch of stuff leaked about Joy Reid's show getting canceled, and they're having to tell them no, Trump wasn't a factor. That had nothing to do with it. I know that the amen announcement of moving him out of his own solo show into an ensemble show, that was handled in a catastrophic way. And so they're trying to play cleanup about what's going on because they know how vulnerable they are to this idea that they're bending the knee to Trump and that they're doubling down on the failures of the past, the Democratic Party. And they won't broke any criticism of the Democratic Party, et cetera. So they know they're in a very vulnerable spot with their own audience and are kind of, I think, panicked about the way that these announcements even were rolled out from within the organization. They're just a mess.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it's hilarious. I say keep it going, and let's try and let's bring an end to the business as soon as possible. Did you know, I was actually reading about this, that they anticipate losing some 15% of their own subscribers just this year. That's a disaster.

[Krystal Ball]

Is that from Peacock or.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, no, no. They're subscribers for cable. For people who are cutting. They're cutting the cord. So there are so many people. I've been meaning to talk about this. With the jacking up of YouTube TV and Fubo to, like, $85 per month, they're now basically making cable just as expensive as it used to be. And so with that, a lot of the reasons why people kept it was news and sports. Well, both of those are kind of becoming disaggregated. And if you just don't care about MSNBC anymore, you're like, okay, for a lot of older people, that's the easiest decision they'll make as it continues to go up for their overall price point. So, existential event for the news business, for fox, for msnbc, and for cnn.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I mean, I just. I wish I remained as hopeful as you are about the independent media space because you've seen so many of, you know, so many creators just get captured by the similar dynamics as the mainstream media. So, you know, I will say, I do think what is very hopeful to me is that msnbc, cnn, Washington Post, New York times. They do not, and I don't think they will ever have again the grip on the liberal Democratic base that they once did and that was so important, you know, that really allowed them to completely control the 2020 primary and say, you gotta get behind Biden. And boy did they ever. Yes, I don't think that dynamic exists anymore. Now does that guarantee a better outcome or an outsider takeover? No, it doesn't guarantee any of that, but it creates a lot more space and possibility for that than ever existed in 2016 or in 2020.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it'd be interesting. Could be the Libs 2016 moment. It'd be. Yeah. Honestly, be fun. Ready to prioritize yourself in the new year? Your skin is a great place to start Dime Beauty, founded by a master esthetician, is more than just a skincare company with four skin conscious categories Skin care, Beauty, Body care and Fragrance. Daim offers simple, spa worthy products that will help you enter 2025 with confidence. Whether you're revitalizing your regimen with nourishing products or building one from scratch, Dime makes it easy. The work system, our all in one best selling routine, includes a cleanser of your choice, toners, serums and moisturizers. Taking the guesswork out of skincare for your healthiest, happiest skin. Yet. Dime's commitment to clean ingredients and sustainable packaging ensures every product is as gentle on your skin as it is on the planet. With thousands of glowing five star reviews and a loyal community, the results speak for themselves. Revive your skin and give yourself the routine refresh you deserve by visiting dimebeautyco.com that's Dime Beauty Co.com your best skin awaits.

[Krystal Ball]

This is Ashley Kineti from the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous podcast.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

Amica.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Empathy is our best policy. All right, Crystal, what are you taking a look at?

[Krystal Ball]

Well, we've come to North Carolina with a simple message for all the people of this region who are hit so.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Hard by Hurricane Helene. And that message is very simple.

[Krystal Ball]

You are not forgotten any longer. You were treated very badly by the previous administration. That was Donald Trump pledging to fully rebuild North Carolina after devastating flooding that was caused by Hurricane Helene and also slamming the Biden administration for what he claimed was their inadequate response. Now, Trump, you may recall, campaigned extensively on the supposed failures of the Biden administration to come to the aid of western North Carolina in their time of need, tying that to his own supposed commitment to working class Americans. Well, we've now got the first test case for how the Trump administration is going to approach disaster relief in his second Elon Musk fueled turn in the White House. And so far, the answer is near complete abandonment. So, tens days ago, parts of Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, they were all hit with devastating floods. After a rapid snow melt was then followed by torrential rains. Rivers overran their banks, roads were completely swamped. Thousands of houses and businesses were destroyed. More than a dozen people actually were killed in these floods. More than 1,000 people had to be rescued. You're seeing some of that on the screen right here. In order to survive the raging waters and resulting mudslides, West Virginia Governor Patrick Morrissey declared a state of emergency in 10 counties in southern West Virginia as a result of those floods. But so far, while Trump has approved an emergency declaration in neighboring Kentucky, no such designation has come for West Virginia. That means not one penny of federal aid and no fema. West Virginia, one of the poorest states in the country, and by the way, one of the most Trump supporting has literally had to fend for itself. Now, southern West Virginia, and these counties in particular are the historic heart of coal country. It was here that miners were subjected to indentured servitude until gaining union rights and armed insurrections against company rule like the Battle of Blair Mountain. After having their resources plundered by robber barons who didn't care whether miners lived or died. They then watched as the industry declined with nothing to replace it, leaving a wake of economic devastation. In fact, two of the hardest hit counties, McDowell and Mingo counties, they're among the poorest in the nation because of this legacy of exploitation, neglect, and abandonment. Even before these floods hit, they were struggling, and now they are literally and Figuratively underwater. My friend JD Belcher is a filmmaker from the area. He posted drone footage of the damage to his channel. Creepolachi. This was no small incident. In West Virginia alone, some 2,000 homes were destroyed. Countless businesses, schools remain closed. Water remains undrinkable. Roads remain impassable. Some areas flooded three feet higher than the previous record. It was historic devastation. And the federal government remains completely absent from the scene. Yet another betrayal of these Americans, this time by the political figure that they have trusted the most. I honestly don't know what's going on here. Maybe Trump is just too busy like renaming the Gulf of Mexico golfing and cheering on Elon's efforts to destroy the entire government. After all, it seems like if he was gonna care about any ordinary people, it'd be this state and these people who vote for him in some of the most overwhelming numbers of anywhere in the country. The governor here is a Republican. The entire congressional delegation, they're all Republicans and they are all begging the President for help. Now, he may still yet make the declaration, but we're already 10 days out. What is the holdup here? Now, I'm told one potential issue could be that the declaration process requires locals to fill out surveys online attesting to the damage. But broadband access is limited to non existent in some of these communities. Not to mention they're a little busy trying to dig out and put their lives back together here with no help from the Feds. Now, local news outlets are starting to act whether this abandonment of West Virginia is actually intentional, if it's actually part and parcel of a Trump administration ideological project. In particular, this regional paper pressed Senator Shelley Moore Capito on if she thought Elon's doge cuts were hurting the response, noting that FEMA has been hit already with staffing cuts thanks to the federal government purge. They also asked her if she expected Trump to completely dismantle FEMA and send it to the states, as he has previously suggested. Now, Moore Capito said she didn't think so, saying, quote, I don't see a scenario where all disaster relief goes to the states. I really don't. I think that there's just too much in some of these disasters that are very large, too much for a state to be able to handle. But there's no real indication that Trump and his band of austerity radicals really cares about any of that. In fact, they've already previously unreported significant cuts to federal disaster relief. According to Dropsight, at the bidding of the Trump administration, Speaker Mike Johnson slashed over $100 million from a program to help disaster victims with legal aid after the initial shock of a catastrophe. In the early phases of basic survival and boots on the ground style cleanup, the next phase of recovery often involves a lot of legal battles to secure your rights. In particular, homeowners and renters often have to go to war with their insurance companies to be able to get what they are entitled to. Scammers also often swoop in to take advantage of the desperation caused by this crisis. Recognizing this need, federal disaster relief has for over a decade now included legal assistance so that people at least have a chance in these battles against the insurance companies and scammers. That is no longer the case. At the direction of Trump budget director Russ Vogt, House Republicans stripped all the money that was meant to fund legal assistance for victims of floods, hurricanes and fires. Now the impact of these cuts will be felt most acutely in rural areas. Places like southern West Virginia, where government backed legal aid nonprofits are literally the only available options. And it will also be most acutely felt among poor people, people who have no resources to fight back without this assistance. Now vote. He's an anti government ideologue. He's attempted to push these cuts through before during Trump's first term, but to no avail. But in the new Trump administration, fueled by this sort of anarcho capitalist flavor, Russ assault on federal disaster relief was taken up and passed. No problem whatsoever. But whether this is an ideological commitment or an accidental oversight, West Virginia's fate, here is a preview of what's to come. If Trump and Musk and Vote get their way with gutting fema, everyone will suffer. But actually the hardest hit that's gonna be rural areas in small states. The kind of places where politicians like Trump are happy to go and do a photo op when it serves their interest. It immediately cast aside as soon as the news cycle moves on. And I'm kind of floored by this saga. I kept thinking like, I'm gonna write a monologue.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And if you wanna hear my reaction to Crystal's monologue, become a premium subscriber [e-mail] okay guys, great counterpoint show for you tomorrow, so we'll see you all on Thursday.

[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Hey, Jenice Torres here and I'm Austin Hankwitz. We're the hosts of Mind the Business Small Business Success Stories, produced by Ruby Studio and Intuit QuickBooks. Catch up on seasons one and two and join us for a brand new season of the podcast as we talk to small business owners about how they manage and grow their businesses with the help of platforms like Intuit QuickBooks. Listen to mind the Business Small Business Success Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple.

[Krystal Ball]

Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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