2/27/26: Zohran Flawless Trump Victory, 1st AI Mass Layoff, Anthropic DEFIES Hegseth

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode Date: February 27, 2026
Episode Title: Zohran Flawless Trump Victory, 1st AI Mass Layoff, Anthropic DEFIES Hegseth

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Overview

This episode of Breaking Points dives into a historic political moment as left-wing New York mayor Zohran scores multiple headline victories with Donald Trump, setting the tone for a discussion about power, charisma, and political maneuvering in the post-2024 landscape. The team also covers the first AI-driven mass layoff at Jack Dorsey’s tech company, the ongoing battle between AI ethics and military interests (Anthropic vs the Pentagon), as well as notable leftist campaign intrigue, escalation of US military tech at the border, and foreign policy discourse vacuum on Ukraine.

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Key Topics and Timed Highlights

1. Zohran’s Big Win with Trump: Housing, ICE, and Political Charisma

[02:10–15:17]

• Dramatic White House meeting: New York’s left-wing mayor Zohran appears with Trump, presenting him with a staged newspaper titled “Trump to City: Let’s Build”—a play to Trump’s ego and his New York legacy.

  • Ryan Grim describes the scene:

    “Trump is seated at the Resolute desk...holding up two newspapers...one real and one mockup Zoron provided to stroke his ego...Trump just the biggest, cheesiest grin on his face; he ate this shit up.” ([02:54])

  • Trump seems open to Zohran’s ambitious $21 billion plan to build 12,000 housing units on Sunnyside Yard in Queens, leveraging federal grants.
  • Strategic use of aesthetics and flattery:

    “Zoron played precisely into Trump’s personality...He loves New York, loves having his face on a newspaper, loves a young, handsome, charismatic star with Zoron, and loves building stuff.” – Ryan Grim ([06:02])

• ICE Student Release:

  • Zohran uses the meeting to successfully lobby for the immediate release of a Columbia student detained by ICE and pushes other release cases, demonstrating real leverage.

    “Within an hour, she had been [released]...another incredible zoron W that goes beyond what anyone could have expected.” – Ryan Grim ([04:54])

  • Analysis of how Zohran uses Trump’s love of beauty, celebrity, and “winners” to sell policy.

• Sunnyside Yard project:

  • Massive train yard in Queens—plan is to build deck and housing focused on middle/working-class families priced out of market rate.

    “A lot of this housing would go to those working and middle class folks that fall into that category.” – Ryan Grim ([05:17])

  • Skepticism remains about whether this handshake deal will play out, but it represents a new political coalition.

• Critique and meme-ification:

  • Discussion of right-wing memes and hot takes about Zoron “buying” Trump with props, and the parallel of a “fake newspaper cover for student release and housing units” meme ([06:02], [06:45]).

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2. Zorhan’s Aesthetic Politics and Culture War Skirmishes

[07:35–16:13]

• Snow removal jobs and right-wing backlash:

  • Zorhan’s emergency snow shoveler hiring program ($35/hr, required ID) triggers attacks for being both “socialist make-work” and “inconsistent on voter ID.”

    “Video of seven guys working together on a corner...‘How dare you create jobs for Americans and benefit their communities.’ I’m devastated by this critique, I hope they continue it.” – Ryan Grim, sarcastically ([11:34])

  • Critique of “Libs of TikTok” turning from viral power to petty gripe machine ([12:05]).

• Snowball Gate:

  • Police hit with snowballs at Washington Square Park; Zorhan refuses to ban snowball fights and uses classic “throw it at me” rhetorical jujitsu to deflate critics and “emasculate the cops.”

    “If you’re going to throw a snowball at anybody, throw it at me.” – Zoran quoted by Krystal ([13:35]) “Completely emasculating to the cops because [he’s] telling them they can’t take this.” – Krystal ([13:53])

• Aesthetics of power:

  • Zorhan brings spokesman Joe Cavello, bold double-breasted suit, to D.C., winning over Trump’s sensibilities.

    “Bring a guy in that Trump is going to fall in love with...a master class.” – Saagar ([15:17])

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3. The First AI Mass Layoff: Block/Square Shrinks by 40%

[18:59–28:42]

• Event:

  • Block/Square (Jack Dorsey) lays off 40% of workforce overnight, cites AI automation as reason.

    “He put on a statement...We could either dribble them out or just do it all in one fell swoop...We just decided to do the one fell swoop and cut 40% of our labor force.” – Ryan Grim ([19:30])

• Stock reward & market incentives:

  • Company’s stock soars, sending a “market signal” that mass layoffs for AI are rewarded by investors.
  • Debate whether layoffs were due to prior over-hiring (“COVID bubble”) or genuine AI displacement, but:

    “The market signal...is when you do mass layoffs, your stock price is going to be rewarded.” – Ryan Grim ([20:30])

• Political consequences & left strategy:

  • Urgent discussion on lack of left solutions to AI job loss beyond basics like Medicare for All or green jobs.

    “There’s gonna need to be a lot of creative thinking about what you can do in a moment of possibilities opened by a rupture of this degree.” – Krystal ([22:10])

  • The regime’s offering: a surveillance-police state and “casino economy” (crypto/lottery fantasies), instead of meaningful social safety net.

    “The new American dream...pull of the slot machine, a hope and a dream that your crypto coin is going to hit.” – Ryan Grim ([24:32])

• Accelerationism vs Decelerationism:

  • Nuanced debate about whether a rapid AI shock might be more likely to create political will for a new social contract, versus a slow bleed that allows status quo dystopia to persist.
  • Krystal argues slow “frog boiling” is more dangerous than a catalyzing event ([25:58]).

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4. Anthropic vs. Pentagon: AI Ethics and National Security

[28:42–39:15]

• Anthropic’s stand:

  • AI firm refused Pentagon demands to enable its “Claude” model for mass surveillance and autonomous weapons (“autonomous killer robots”). Pentagon threatens use of Defense Production Act or “supply chain risk” label to compel cooperation.

    “Anthropic: two red lines. One: no tech for mass surveillance of Americans. Two: no autonomous killer robots.” – Ryan Grim ([28:55])

  • Pentagon response:

    “If you don’t comply, we’ll either use Defense Production Act to just take it, or deem you a supply chain risk and cancel your contract.” – Ryan Grim ([28:55])

• Legal and ethical standoff:

  • Anthropic: “Pentagon promising not to use tech for anything ‘unlawful’ isn’t enough, since law hasn't caught up to constitutional rights on AI surveillance.” – Krystal ([31:45])
  • Possibility of court battle if DPA used; tension between being labeled as “essential” or “risk” to natsec.

• AI industry reactions:

  • Sam Altman (OpenAI) moves to position ChatGPT for Pentagon contracts, while Elon Musk is “open for business,” highlighting Anthropic’s attempt to retain some ethical standing.

    “Altman trying to get in there...Elon, of course, already was like ‘I have no principles. Don’t worry, I’ll do whatever you want.’” – Krystal ([30:43])

• Brand and Principle:

  • Saagar speculates that Anthropic wants to avoid their brand being responsible for a potential future catastrophe (e.g., “Anthropic Terminator” incident), while Krystal and Ryan credit CEO Dario’s consistency on core safety concerns ([35:13–36:41]).
  • “If you don’t have a really formed foreign policy view, the people you surround yourself with become really important...If you bring in this person who is very hawkish...obviously that’s what’s going to reflect on your campaign.” – Ryan Grim (discussing a later topic, but applies here too; [56:18])

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5. Border Tech: Military Lasers and Bureaucratic Infighting

[42:04–43:46]

• US military shoots down DHS drone with laser near El Paso:
  • Krystal speculates on “amateurs vs. professionals” culture clash between DHS and the military.
  • Ryan’s trenchant critique:

    “The idea that we gave the border patrol these frickin laser weapons...is utterly terrifying. These people are evil and buffoons.” – Ryan Grim ([42:56])

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6. Left Campaign Intrigue: Cat for Congress and Foreign Policy

[46:01–63:37]

• Chicago race, Kat Abu Gazella:

  • Palestinian-American progressive running against Daniel Biss and Laura Fine.
  • Big surprise: her national security advisor Ben Mermel espouses strongly interventionist, even hawkish, views on Taiwan, Ukraine, and “firm interventionism” elsewhere ("more hawkish than Trump" in some areas).

    “Cat is firmly an interventionist...the world is better off when America takes a leading role...we must place human rights first.” – campaign communication ([49:12])

  • Kat’s strong stance on Palestine remains, but her campaign’s national security positions stun the hosts:

    “Not firmly an interventionist. It’s like, whoa...This is very, very surprising to me.” – Ryan Grim ([53:33])

• Foreign policy vacuum on the left:

  • Saagar notes lack of strongly articulated anti-war/realist left perspective, especially on Ukraine.
  • Widespread hesitancy in progressive circles to criticize military aid; early ceasefire calls provoked intense backlash and silence.

    “It became easier for every political actor to just pretend like (the Ukraine war) isn’t happening.” – Krystal ([62:10])

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7. Other Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Zorhan’s personal/political effect:

  “I won’t be the first to say it’s a goddamn shame that the Constitution bars him from running for President, because the level of charm and skill this man has demonstrated...” – Ryan Grim ([09:00])

• On the current “American Dream”:

  “That’s the new American dream… a hope, a prayer, a wish, and a fantasy that your crypto coin is going to hit.” – Ryan Grim ([24:32])

• On bureaucratic evil/idiocy:

  “I’ve had to really struggle to anticipate and understand the evil idiot, not the evil genius mind.” – Ryan Grim ([42:56])

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Conclusion & Resource Links

The first half of this episode reflects on how personalities, aesthetics, and meme-savvy tactics are shaping substantive policy discussions in 2026—from old-school political horse-trading (Zohran/Trump) to existential AI battles and shifts in progressive organizing. The show combines sharp political analysis, snark, and candid exasperation with a focus on the rapidly shifting landscape ahead of the next election.

For full episode and further links: breakingpoints.com

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Transcript

[Ryan Grim]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[Wells Adams]

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Then she says, have you seen a photo of my son? And I'm like, who is this person?

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[Krystal Ball]

Biggie.

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[Krystal Ball]

Because I want to get confident.

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[Krystal Ball]

Hey, guys.

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We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we

[Ryan Grim]

hope to see [e-mail] Good morning, guys. Happy Friday.

[Krystal Ball]

Happy Friday.

[Ryan Grim]

Yet another commie takeover. This is a fun week for us, comrades.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, indeed. No both sizing here, maybe. Griffin, are you. If we got the Mensheviks, the Bolsheviks. You're the. Actually, I'll do Kerensky. So we have all three sides of the center, left to left, covered here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's good. That's good. I identify as a political podcaster, sort of an umpire in the meetings, in the struggle sessions.

[Ryan Grim]

Balls and strikes, fair and balanced.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Balls, strikes, fouls, all that good stuff. Trophies. So, big show today. Speaking of a commie takeover, there's been a commie takeover once again at the White house with one Mr. Mumdan and Mr. Donald Trump. Crystal, what happened yesterday?

[Ryan Grim]

Well, first, while I'm talking, you gotta pull up the picture of Trump and Sauron because it is. It is art. I mean, this is no AI. AI could never create this image so glorious. So what you have here is Trump seated at the Resolute desk. He's holding up two newspapers, one of which is real from the past forward to city. Drop dead. And the other one, which Zoran mocked up and provided to him to stroke his ego, says Trump to city, let's build. And Zoron is standing over him looking, you know, not really smiling, but looking sort of commanding, in control. And Trump, just the biggest, cheesiest grin on his face, like he ate this shit up. And lo and behold, you know, Zoran comes out and says, look, we had a very productive meeting. Trump, I guess last time they met, which of course was, you know, started the bromance had said, bring me some ideas for how you could build. Zoran's like, here you go. Here's what we want to do. We want to build these 12,000 units. We want, you know, federal grants to be able to do it. Trump is. Is apparently open to the. To this idea. I think it's like $21 billion that we would need from the federal government to pull that off. And the other thing very significant is there was this Columbia University student who had been arrested by immigration authorities and under really, under false pretenses, they accessed her dorm at Columbia University by lying about looking for a missing child. They even mocked up face fake, like missing child posters, according to, you know, university officials. And that's how they got in and ultimately arrested her. And so the other thing Zoran asked for is for her to be released is. And, you know, I think it was like within an hour, she had been. He also put to Trump, I think four others, you know, cases that we've frankly been following fairly closely that he wanted Trump to look into. I think he gave those to Susie Wiles. So those are continue to be undetermined whether or not action will be taken there. But just absolutely. Yet another incredible zoron w that, you know, really goes beyond what anyone could have expected.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, and it's this Sunnyside yard You know, which is this just massive, you know, wasteland of. It's basically, you know, huge train yard and they're saying build on top of it. Right? If I'm understanding the idea.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, that's the idea is to put like a thing over it that you could then build on. And a lot of the housing would be, you know, for people who are kind of in. In New York, they have a law that helps to support people who are making too much money to be in public housing but can't afford market rates. And obviously there's a lot of people that fall into that category. And so a lot of this housing would go to those type of working and middle class folks.

[Saagar Enjeti]

21 billion in federal grants. And this is a big area out in Queens. Yeah, absolutely outrageous. What do you guys think? Is this. Is this a handshake deal that's going to go through?

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, we'll see. It's like, you got to start somewhere, right?

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's right.

[Ryan Grim]

I mean, Zoron is like, Trump's not against. You mean Zoron played precisely into Trump's personality, right? The egotism. Like, he loves New York, loves Queens, loves having his face on a newspaper, loves a young, handsome, charismatic star with Zoron and, you know, and loves building stuff. So he's like, all right, you want to, you want to work together on building? Let's do this. Look at how the public would love you. You know, look at the way the newspapers would report this. And I saw there was a meme going around that was like, you know, zoron, let's make a deal. You get one fake newspaper cover, I get 12,000 housing units and, you know, student release from ICE detention.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, it's going to be. It'll be great. And, you know, I can't imagine that the NIMBYs are going to want to stop this. It's like, right now it's a rail yard. Like, you. You want to maintain your beautiful view of the rail yard. Like, I'm sure some people be upset. I had a view that now is being blocked, but, like, all right, this feels like, doable.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, totally.

[Saagar Enjeti]

When I saw how much Trump enjoyed the newspapers, I thought that was something his team made. And then I was like, oh, it's so genius for the Zoron team to come in with props and. Yeah, I just, I thought was amazing. We also do have an image of the Columbia student here that I just found. This is her. She was at least after like one day. Any. Any comments, Crystal?

[Ryan Grim]

I mean, her being extremely beautiful Certainly didn't hurt her case. And, I mean, just based on how savvy Zoron's been, Trump clearly loves beautiful people, men and women, by the way. I mean, that's part of the bromance with Zoron, is clearly he thinks, like, look at this young, handsome guy. And I want to be associated with that. So I. I totally would can imagine Zord being in there, like, you know, this young, beautiful, brilliant girl. Sir, sir, I'm sure this isn't what you would have wanted. Can you please look into her case? You know, putting it to him like, this isn't you, right? This isn't what you would want.

[Krystal Ball]

You don't say anything, I think, if you're Zoron, but you show a. A glam shot, like, here she is. This is who we're trying to, like, get out. And Trump. Yeah, like, all right, you know what? Because Trump, like, does he, like. Does he. Does he even, like, care about any of this?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like, no, not at all.

[Krystal Ball]

He's like, that's what's crazy. Somebody calls it, like, what, we're raiding Home Depots or raiding farms, raiding hotels. Steven, stop it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's like, one of the things that's, like, sinking him in the polls, and he's, like, barely aware of it, but he is aware, like, in the moment that his polls are down. And so he's glomming onto someone he knows is hot, someone he knows who's got motion right now, which is Zoron. So it's really clear that Trump really enjoys these meetings and likes glamming onto people who are on the up, as opposed to him, who seems to be in a steady decline.

[Ryan Grim]

It was such a funny moment in the State of the Union where, you know, they'd written in this line that was supposed to be, like, an attack against the Communist mayor of New York City, and Trump can't help but deliver it without. He's like, the Communist mayor who's actually a nice guy. I actually really like him. We spent a lot of time together. Like, he can't even get through the one negative line about him without being like, you know, he's actually a good guy. I actually like this guy. So I don't know. Zorin's got some kind of magical charm. I won't be the first to say it's a goddamn shame that the Constitution bars him for running for President, because the level of charm and skill that this man has demonstrated, both from, you know, just political acumen to delivering, I mean, when the rubber hit the road, he was like, okay, we are going to deliver on our promises. I'm going to be out in the streets, people are going to see me, they're going to notice that basic things like, you know, the snow is getting removed and in an extraordinary way. And I'm making good on my promises with regard to, you know, access to childcare and these other things. So, you know, the. We talked about the rent, freezing the rent. He's able to accomplish that now, too. So it truly is extraordinary. And, you know, there have been some political decisions that he's made that I'm like, I'm not sure about, like, backing Hakeem Jeffries or opposing his primary candidate. Now I'm, like, listening, you know what you're doing. I default to your judgment much more than mine because of the demonstrated track record on the ground and the things he's been able to accomplish that are just already extraordinary. We were talking before we started about there's like this whole right wing critique of the snow shoveling program. And for those that don't know, Zorn put out some people. He made one of his trademark videos and was like, look, we want emergency snow shovelers. It's going to be 35 bucks an hour. I think it originally started, what, at 20, and then he upped it to 35. And, you know, come on out, bring your ID, we'll get you signed up with the city government, you can come in and help out. And clearly this is a big part of why the snow removal operation was so incredibly effective, that it was so effective that there were people sharing photos. Like, I don't even think it's known, like, this is, this is a lie, or this is can't be from this time because there's just, there's no way that they were able to get this done. So the program is stunningly effective. You're hiring people, you're creating jobs that are actually beneficial to the community. And the first knock on it was, oh, they need ID to shovel snow, but you don't want them to have ID at the polls. Like, okay, so they did that one. And now people are sharing videos of like, you know, it'll be like seven guys all working together on a corner and they're like, you know, oh, this make work socialist program. How dare you? And I just hope, you know, I, I think this critique is really smart and savvy. I hope they continue talking about Zoran Ramdani creating jobs for Americans and like, you know, hiring them to do useful things in the city that benefit their communities. I think this is a very. Like, I'm devastated by this critique and I hope they continue it.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, Libs of TikTok is on such a. Does such a down slope. It's like they had talk about motion, like, a couple years ago. They had some serious motion. Like last night, they're like, oh, 16 guys on a corner shoveling snow. Like, yeah. You ever shovel snow? Like, if it's one guy in the corner, like, you're gonna have to wait for the spring for it to melt. Like 16. Shovel it faster. You can standing around. Yeah, well, no, it's hard sometimes you take a break, like, relax. Also. You ever go by a construction site? Sometimes people are like, leaning on a shovel. Like, it happens.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This also comes during Snowball Gate, which was a snowball fight happening in Washington Square park where some cops were hit with snowballs. Maybe. Maybe some ice balls.

[Krystal Ball]

Who's.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No. Who knows? These could be hard snowballs. But the NYPD commissioner came out and gave an all hands on deck statement saying, we're going to have to catch the people who did this. The right. And the Zionists were like, new York City is falling apart. And I think what's so great about Zorin is a. He didn't take the bait on it and was like, no, I'm not going to ban snowball fights from New York City. But then he also flooded the zone with like, real news. So he's like, not only am I not taking the bait, but actually, we're actually doing, like, real stuff here. And I think that's so great because. And you kind of need both to completely disqualify these stupid criticisms. And while we were talking about aesthetics, there's one more aesthetic that I had, like one other.

[Krystal Ball]

One other little ballet move that he had on it was he. When he finally did put a statement out about it, his last line was something like, if anybody, if you're going to throw a snowball at anybody, throw it at me. Which is completely emasculating to the cops because he's telling them, look, they can't. They can't take this.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, it's a subtle way of being like, you know, because he did the thing of like, look, guys, city workers, including cops, are out and working hard, but if anyone's gonna take a snowball, it should be me. Which is a subtle way of being like, come on, you guys are this soft. Like, you can't even take a snow. I'll. Fine, I'll take the snowball. Don't worry about it.

[Krystal Ball]

Like, what I've told my kids, like, if, if you, if you're so angry, you really need to hit somebody. Like, hit me, hit me. Go ahead. Like, I'll, I'll take it. Because it doesn't hurt when they hit.

[Ryan Grim]

Have they done it?

[Krystal Ball]

Have they taken, like an arm or something? It's like, fine. Like, if, if they're really angry, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. And then, like, they feel better then. And it's better than them hitting, their. Hitting their sibling who can't take it. So that's, that's kind of the same thing mom Donnie did. It's like, if you're angry, hit me.

[Ryan Grim]

New segment, Ryan's parenting tips.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, pitch that to Ms. Rachel. And, you know, while we're talking about

[Krystal Ball]

not good parenting advice, but, well, you're

[Saagar Enjeti]

talking about ballet moves and masculinity. And I had to flag this one last moment about another aesthetic choice that Zoran made, which was bringing this guy into the White House. His spokesperson, Joe Cavello, who we love, is like central casting, perfect for Trump. Look at this double breasted suit. To come back with some big ideas how we can build things together here in New York City.

[Krystal Ball]

And that's what he did today.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Mayor took him up in this offer and went to D.C. today to pitch him about a possible project in New York City that could deliver one of the biggest federal investments in housing over the past 50 years. Boom. So, I don't know, just everything about it is a master class. Like, bring a guy in that, you know, Trump is going to fall in love with incredible stuff.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, well, we, we know, we know Joe. Joe's been on a lot of different campaigns and, you know, is, I'm sure, gonna be a great spokesperson.

[Krystal Ball]

He was on. He was. He left. He left Graham Platner's campaign to join Zoron. Actually, I don't think that suit would

[Saagar Enjeti]

have fit on an oyster boat, but if it's.

[Krystal Ball]

He's on his. He's on his Fetterman redemption tour.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, well, I mean, in fairness, many did not see where that was going, myself included. So, yeah, both of us need to be on that redemption tour.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Plattner and Zoran Momdani are pretty good. Way to reclaim your cred there.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Heather Dubrow]

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[Krystal Ball]

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Listen to between us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danielle Robey]

Hi, I'm Danielle Robey, host of Bookmarked, the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week on Bookmarked, we're basically hosting the ultimate Girls Night. Reese Witherspoon, Jennifer Garner, Judy Greer, Rita Wilson, Angari Rice, and author Laura Dace. These are the women behind season two of the Apple TV series. The Last Thing He Told Me. We're talking about turning a book into a hit show and what it really takes to bring a story to life.

[Ryan Grim]

The most important metric for me is do I want to share this book with somebody? That's what creates community, and that's the main thesis of our book club and why we started it was just to connect people together.

[Danielle Robey]

Listen to the Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Liza Traeger]

Hi, I'm Liza Traeger. And I'm Kara Klenk. We're comedians and your favorite overly invested SVU watchers on that's Messed up, an SVU podcast, we recap iconic episodes, then talk to the stars who live them. Like the legendary Matthew Lillard, who will never forget his time on svu.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I do remember the mustache. I will get a p. I will get a meme of that mustache. Like. Like every, like, six days, somebody would be like, what was this?

[Liza Traeger]

Each week we cover the crimes, analyze the plot holes, and insult the outfits. Benson goes to talk to Kelly to, like, tell her the news, but is wearing a beret not the time for a silly hat? Benson, what are you doing? New episodes drop every Tuesday on the exactly right network. Listen to that's messed up on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts done.

[Saagar Enjeti]

All right, well, moving on. Let's do some bad news now. So we've got block stock here, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is block A I, which is Jack from Twitter's company. Is that correct, Crystal?

[Ryan Grim]

Jack Dorsey.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So Jack Dorsey cut 40% of his workforce over the last 24 hours, and the stock is now shooting through the roof. Crystal, what does this mean?

[Ryan Grim]

Well, not only did he cut 40% of his workforce all at once, but he put on a statement that said effectively, like, look, we saw the writing on the wall. These jobs are going to go. And so because of AI and so we had a choice. We could either do this sort of dribbling them out over a longer time frame, or we could just do it all in one, one fell swoop. And he talks about, you know, we're going to give them 20 weeks plus one week per year of tenure of their salary so they have time to adjust, blah, blah, blah. But basically we just decided to do the one fell swoop approach and come 40% of our labor force. And then, you know, predictably, but it's still noteworthy. The, you know, like the stock market loves when you lay off workers. So for other companies that are looking at, you know, how to approach the AI era, it sends a pretty strong signal that if you're mass doing mass layoffs, your stock price is going to be pretty significantly rewarded. Now, I will say I'm not, I'm not an expert or analyst. I really know nothing about this company. Okay. Except what I was reading on Twitter yesterday. But I saw some people who were saying like, yeah, well, what's really going on here is that he overhire during COVID and now he's using AI as an excuse to get rid of, you know, the excess labor force that he really didn't mean. Now, he directly disputed that and said, no, that's not what's going on. Look at, you know, our productivity levels and how much bang we're getting for the buck of all of our workers, blah, blah, blah. But in a sense, I think it's kind of irrelevant because the point here is really the market signal. The story that is out now is when you do these mass layoffs, it will create a massive reward. And then the other piece of this is there is just simply no doubt. And I know there are still people that are in denial about this, but there is just simply no doubt that with the advent of Claude Code and Claude Cowork and where AI is today, there is going to be significant disruption. How quick? What fields, you know, what's the uptake in terms of. It takes large organizations a while to figure out how they can do this. Do people do mass layoffs or do they just let people, you know, naturally move on to other jobs and they just don't rehire? That's still all kind of an open question, but that's why this particular move is really significant because this puts some, you know, pushes some chips to the side of companies are just going to start doing mass layoffs and this could accelerate really, really quickly.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah. And this is not a small company. Right. This is square. And like this is, this is not, these are not just like Jack Dorsey's like side hobbies.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like this is a major 10,000 employees.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, it's huge for, especially for a tech company. So yeah, this is. I just, yeah, completely agree with Crystal and I think, yeah, the left in particular is going to need to come up with serious solutions to this crisis that are going to require going beyond like the baseline has to be some obvious things like Medicare for all. Like that's an easy one. It's even easier as you're heading into, you know, mass unemployment. Like everybody needs healthcare. Like, okay, so that's an easy one. Green jobs, easy one like that. So there's some like left wing ideas that easily kind of translate into this era. But then there's gonna be. Need to be a lot of creative thinking too about what can you do in a moment of possibilities that is opened up by a rupture of this degree. Like if you do have mass unemployment coupled with like mass fear about where things are headed, coupled with rage at billionaires, like what, what can, what can you offer to those people that isn't dystopian? Mass surveillance and like incarceration and a police state and immiseration police state because that's the other thing that'll be on offer.

[Ryan Grim]

So the offer currently, as best I can tell from this administration, is the, you know, the mass surveillance and police state and you know, the $1.5 trillion defense budget. Like that's the. We'll keep everybody in line using guns and surveillance. Right. And then the other thing is this sort of like lotto casino economy where we don't have the American dream is dead. Like no one believes anymore. Oh can just work hard and get ahead, especially not with AI. So instead we're gonna hold out to you, dangle in front of you the possibility that maybe as I've. The example I've used before, maybe you'll get cast as the grass in Bad Bunny's halftime show and know who the singer's gonna be and be able to cash in on Poly Market. Maybe your parlay is gonna hit this time. Like, maybe, maybe you just, you really know a lot about basketball and you're gonna be able work that out and that's how you're going to be able to succeed.

[Krystal Ball]

So it's coin you pick, like, is going to blow up and you get out before the rug.

[Ryan Grim]

That's right. You're, you're going to pick the right meme, you know, shitcoin, and you're going to, you're going to be one of the lucky few that makes it big before the, before the rug. So that's really the thing that is being offered. And of course, we all know that. And most people, I think, intellectually know that those things overall are deeply, they're extremely predatory, you know, and the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of people are going to be net losers in a big way with all of those things. But that's the new, the new American dream that is being offered by this administration is like, you know, just a roll of the dice, right? A pull of the slot machine, some hope and a prayer and a wish and a dream and a fantasy that your crypto coin is going to hit, your parlay is going to hit. You're going to stumble upon some side of some sort of insider information. Because, you know, there was a world, I guess, more in the Bannonite lane, where you could imagine them creating some sort of social safety net that at least applies to like their quote unquote, heritage Americans, but they're not even bothering to do that. So it's even, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's deeply dystopian, what is on offer there. So it shouldn't be hard for the left to come up with a different deal like, okay, we're ripping up the social contract, let's do it, but let's come up with something where people are going to actually benefit, where we have control, human control, like democratic, small D democratic control over this technology so that it's not deployed just for the benefit of a few capitalists, but it's going to be deployed for the benefit of, you know, of human beings, which is not the direction we're headed in right now, but it's going to require a lot, a lot of big thinking, you know, going back to this mass layoff. Maybe this is like kind of a horrible thing to say, but we were talking, we've talked before about how you need some sort of a shocking event to wake people up and to get them to take this stuff seriously. And in a sense, I'm actually more afraid of the other scenario that Jack laid out of. Like, I could have done it slowly over time, but I kind of thought it was better to rip the band aid off, because if you have a displacement that is large, but still in the scale of things we've lived through historically, there is going to be a lot less political incentive to act. There's going to be a lot more storytelling about, like, oh, well, you know, the professionals who were really skilled made it so just work a little harder. Just like college degree a little harder. Just get in your grind setting and you'll be fine. Whereas if we have something that is truly un, you know, unprecedented or approaching unprecedented or cataclysmic, where, you know, the jobs are shedding and there can't be any story around why, it's your fault you lost your job. That's when we're much more likely to get actual political action and some sort of coalition together. I mean, I, I really like. I hope you guys know I hate talking that way, but I think that's a, the, the riskier situation is actually where you end up in the same place. But it's a slow drip. And so there's no one moment where people are really galvanized to, to come together and make, you know, a new social contract, which is what we need.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, yeah, we're all accelerationists now, I guess.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, sort of. It's a different kind of it because, yeah, the old, the, the old accelerationism never stipulated that without it, you could have human extinction. Like, that's a significant difference. Like, the old accelerationism was like the contradictions embedded within the system are going to lead to some sort of revolution eventually. So we might as well just accelerate it and do it now.

[Ryan Grim]

Speed up the timeline.

[Krystal Ball]

Speed up the timeline. The new one is saying if we don't do something, we might like these AIs might nuke the planet, and that's it. So we need to stop. So it's not accelerationism, because you're not trying to bring the future forward. You're trying to stave off a potential future deviationism in a different kind of deceleration deviationism.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Pump the brakes. Ism for sure.

[Krystal Ball]

But it can't just be pump the brakes. You have to actually detour also, like, veer off the road that we're on.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. But for now, I do think the, you know, the most important work is just how can we slow things down? How can we resist the data centers? How can we slow things down? Because this administration is not going to do anything. I mean, we can. This is probably a good transition to the. The anthropic fight with the Pentagon, which we've been covering, because I think it's so important and so significant. You have the. The stakes here are anthropic, which model Claude, is used extensively by the Pentagon. They have a $2,100,000,000 contract, and they believe. Their belief is that it's really important to work with the US Government because it's much better for a democratic country to achieve AGI or super intelligence first. So they're all in on, like, the war, AI war against China. They're perfectly happy. Like, work with Palantir and get this Pentagon contract. Okay? So these are not like, you know, super hippie, dippy, like, whatever, but they had two red lines. One of them is, we don't want our tech used for mass surveillance of Americans. And number two, we don't want it used for autonomous killer robots. Like, no. Autonomous death machines. And the Pentagon said, absolutely not. And if you don't comply, we are going to either use the Defense Production act to deem your technology essential and just take it, or we're going to deem it a supply chain risk. And as Dario has pointed out, like, these two things are directly contradictory. But anyway, put that aside, a supply chain risk, we're going to cancel your contract, and we're going to make it so all of our other contractors cannot use your product, which would be, you know, a massive economic hit, because, of course, every large company works with the Pentagon effectively. So today is the deadline, and yesterday Dario put out a statement saying that, you know, no, we're. We're not going to comply like this. They. They tried to. The Pentagon tried to say, well, we won't use it for any unlawful purposes. And anthropic said, well, that's really not good enough because technically, like, the law has not caught up to reflect the constitutional rights that Americans actually have. And on the Fourth Amendment, it's, you know, the Claris Cut, where it's like, yeah, technically it's not illegal for you to use and collect all of this information that exists and use AI to collate it, but it clearly is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. So you just saying that you're not technically going to violate the law with it is really not good enough. So, no, we refuse. And, you know, and that's kind of where we are. I just saw an update this morning from Sam Altman is saying, we're going to see if there's a deal with the Department of War that allows our models to be deployed in classified environments that fits with our principles. So Altman trying to get in there, we'd ask for the contract to cover any use except those which are unlawful or unsuited to cloud deployments, such as domestic surveillance and autonomous offensive weapons. I don't know how they're thinking they're going to draw the line in a different place than Anthropic did. But Sam Altman trying to get in on this. Elon, of course, already was like, oh, I have no principles. Don't worry, I'll do whatever you want. Sign me up. But my understanding is that, you know, CLAUDE has already been implemented in a lot of these. In all these classified systems, and CLAUDE is the most effective. Like, it's. It's the best product for what they want to accomplish. So it's not so simple to just, like, flip the switch from, you know, Claude to Grok or, you know, ChatGPT or whatever. So it will be messy for them to untangle. So that means Anthropic has a little bit of leverage here. But the quote that I saw from some senior military official quoted by Axios was like, yeah, it's going to be messy, and because of that, we are going to make them pay for doing this.

[Krystal Ball]

And so the Hegseth had threatened the Defense Production act, which Trump has shown a willingness to use. He just used the dpa, which is a law that allows the government to force a private company to produce something if it's in national security interests of the country. He just did it for Roundup. Bizarrely, he told Monsanto, which owned by Bayer, you need to make more, more Roundup. And we need more phosphorus. Phosphorus is a. Is an issue that the US Has Roundup anyway.

[Ryan Grim]

We need. We need more cancer. That's what we need, more cancer.

[Krystal Ball]

So they threatened that they would use the Defense Production act to require Cloud Claude to work with the Pentagon. That would lead to an interesting court case where you would then have to litigate whether the Pentagon's demand is legal. Like, if and if. And if their claim that this thing will kill people without due process and will surveil people in violation of the Fourth Amendment is true, then it's hard to see how you can compel the government can then legally compel anybody to, you know, break the Constitution.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, it is. I. I do want to underscore what I was saying before, the contradiction between these two different paths that they've laid out either the Defense Production act or deeming it a supply chain risk. So it looks like they're going in the direction of supply chain risk. I think probably precisely for the reasons that you lay out, Ryan, that it would be legally, you know, tenuous and they'd have a pretty good case at, you know, getting that blocked. And, you know, the courts are very even up to the Supreme Court, as we saw with terrorists. Like, they're very pro business. So I think, I think Anthropic could have a pretty good shot at winning that case. But if you do the Defense Production act, what you're arguing is that they're essential to national security. If you do the supply chain risk, you're arguing they're a detriment, they're a risk to national security. So the fact that those are the two paths that they're choosing from, it's like it's either essential or it's terrible. And it looks like they're going to go in the direction of saying that it's, this is terrible for national security. But I mean, we'll see. They may, they may, Taco. Right. They may. Especially as we're on the cusp of war with Iran, as it appears you're going to be changing out the system that you really rely on at this point and are comfortable with, et cetera. There's a lot going on militarily. Is that really something you want to deal with right now? You really want to bring Xai and their total lack of scruples in to fill the void there? So we'll see how this all plays out. But I think it's a fairly credible threat that they'll, you know, that they will decide to wage a kind of like both government and ideological rhetorical war against Anthropic and say this is like the woke liberal AI and we should, none of us should have anything to do with it and it's the woke mind virus and it's going to destroy civilization, etc. Etc.

[Saagar Enjeti]

How much do you think this is like, brand preservation by Anthropic that, like Anthropic sees the Trump administration sees people like Pete Hegseth and is like, oh, like, I don't want like the Anthropic, like brand slapped over a drone swarm that attacked Springfield, Ohio or something like that? Like, do you think that there's some of that where they're like, well, let Grok be the ones that do, like the first bad AI incident that kills a bunch of people. Because you look at this administration, how Lawless they are and how they kind of have gone a million different directions and it's like, oh, yeah, we easily see how, like in the next year we could have the Anthropic Terminator, you know, I don't know, blowing up all the boats in the Caribbean or what have you.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know.

[Ryan Grim]

I think it's pretty. Go ahead, Ryan.

[Krystal Ball]

No, just that ethics and safety are central to Anthropic's brand. They also just recently dropped their safety, you know, the one, one of their key safety lines that they've been walking around with for a very long time. So, yeah, I think it, in some ways it could be too much to do that and then follow it up with, okay, fine, we'll do these autonomous drone swarms and mass surveillance for the Pentagon. But I think some of it is, I don't know, real. Like, if you read Dario's writing, he's a complicated guy, obviously, and you gotta read everything with a grain of salt. But, like, he's been consistent on these questions.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

So you have to credit that consistency with something.

[Ryan Grim]

I think it's pretty hard to make a case that this decision by Anthropic is just purely like a capitalist maximizing play, because the times where timelines we're talking about now with achieving, I mean, many people, myself included, I'm persuaded that we've already achieved artificial general intelligence. And people keep, like, moving the goal post and not really admit that, but I think we're already. I think we're already there. And the next milestone is super intelligence, which will be equally kind of like, difficult to draw a line of, like, we've made it. But, you know, these timelines for when these things are being achieved are extremely quick. You know, we're talking about, like, I'm hoping that we don't get there before the next presidential election because we need time, as we were discussing before, to develop a policy framework from the left and be able to really meet the moment. And that's not going to be. That's going to be a very significant task. So, you know, you're looking at three more years of this administration, and this is a critical moment. And if you're having a fight with the US Federal government and have your contracts stripped and, you know, who knows what other ways they're going to screw with you and not approve whatever you need approved and block this or that merger that you're trying to do, etc, it's going to make the task of Anthropic coming out on top in that AI race more difficult. And that's ultimately all of their, you know, that's all of their goals and anthropic, their view is like, we need to be there first because we are the only ones that have any, you know, any principles whatsoever. And frankly, at this point I think that's actually kind of fair that they, they are correct about that. And so, you know, so in. I have no doubt that if the Pentagon follows through on their threats and I believe that they could, that this will be damaging to Anthropic in terms of winning that ultimate AI race. And like I said, because of the, the time frame, you know, it's, they all see it as, as very zero sum. Like whoever makes it is going to be the model. And you know, if you were just interested in my model is going to be the one to proliferate, you wouldn't care about any of the safety concerns, even the, like, really dire ones. You lay out Griffin of like the drone swarm attacking some American town or whatever, being the one that gets there first is all that matters in terms of ending up on top as the dominant model.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, that's optimistic. I like it.

[Heather Dubrow]

Almost 30 years together, four kids, and some of reality TV's most unforgettable moments. We know a thing or two about living life out loud. We're taking you behind the scenes in our new podcast, Between Us with me,

[Terry Dubrow]

Heather Dubrow, and me, Terry debrow. Between Us isn't about perfect lighting or curated inside Instagram grids.

[Heather Dubrow]

It's the unfiltered behind closed doors conversations you wish you could eavesdrop on. Equal parts smart, funny, and a little bit scandalous.

[Terry Dubrow]

Every week, Heather will bring you an unapologetic take on the headlines, the trends, and the cultural moments everyone's texting about.

[Heather Dubrow]

And Terry will deliver insider beauty, health and wellness insights you won't find on TikTok.

[Terry Dubrow]

Together, we'll tell the stories, spill the secrets, and share the hacks that keep life, married, marriage, and everything in between feeling fresh and fun.

[Heather Dubrow]

We may live in a gated community, but there's zero gatekeeping here and plenty

[Terry Dubrow]

of did they just say that? Moments.

[Heather Dubrow]

Listen to between us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Liza Traeger]

Hi, I'm Liza Traeger. And I'm Kara Klenk. We're comedians and your favorite overly invested SVU watchers on that's Messed up an SVU podcast. We recap I iconic episodes than talk to the stars who lived them, like the legendary Matthew Lillard, who will Never forget his time on svu.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I do remember the mustache. I will get a meme of that mustache. Like every, like six days. Somebody would be like, what was this?

[Liza Traeger]

Each week we cover the crimes, analyze the plot holes, and insult the outfits. Benson goes to talk to Kelly to, like, tell her the news, but is wearing a beret not the time for a silly hat? Benson, what are you doing? New episodes drop every Tuesday on the exactly right network. Listen to that's messed up on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

Dun, dun, dun.

[Danielle Robey]

Hi, I'm Danielle Robay, host of Bookmarked the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week on Bookmarked, we're basically hosting the ultimate Girls night. Reese Witherspoon, Jennifer Garner, Judy Greer, Rita Wilson, Angari Rice, and author Laura Dave. These are the women behind season two of the Apple TV series. The Last thing he told me. We're talking about turning a book into a hit show and what it really takes to bring a story to life.

[Ryan Grim]

The most important metric for me is do I want to share this book with somebody? That's what creates community. And that's the main thesis of our book club and why we started it was just to connect people together.

[Danielle Robey]

Listen to the Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We don't need to spend a lot of time on this story, but I think just a tag for this conversation that is, I think, thematic. US Military uses laser to take down border protection drone lawmakers say and FAA closes airspace near El Paso, Texas. It's happening again, these lasers in El Paso. So, yeah, more of that in the future.

[Krystal Ball]

It's a reverse this time. Last time it was DHS just goofing around with the. With their toys. This time it may have been DHS goofing around with some drone toys and not telling the military that they were doing it. And so the military, military seems to have very little patience for DHS and I think and believe considers them to be amateurs and hacks.

[Ryan Grim]

Really? Like, why would they, where would they get that?

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know where they would get that. Yeah, they must always be judgy.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, my God. The idea that we gave the border patrol these frickin like laser weapons and whatever else they have in their arsenal is utterly terrifying. Utterly terrifying. I mean, look at these guys. Like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know, guys. I don't know how Any of us are going to make it through this regime because these people are evil and buffoons like the combination. I didn't, you know, it's not the movie combination you get. And Griffin, you could probably speak to this usually like the evil types are like masterminds. You know, they're, they're geniuses. I, I don't. I've had to really, you know, struggle to anticipate and understand the evil idiot. Not the evil genius mind. The like evil idiot mind. What does that one look like? What is that one gonna bring us?

[Krystal Ball]

Much more Coen Brothers DHS than anything else.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes. Yeah, it's Fargo USA here. Well on that.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. What do you got Real quick on the Pakistan and Afghanistan are at war. People can read more about that in our newsletter elsewhere and go find the details. But yeah, border clashes between, you know, Afghanistan and Pakistan led to Pakistan then launching bombing raids on Kabul and

[Saagar Enjeti]

against the Taliban.

[Krystal Ball]

Right, against. Yeah, against Taliban. Amid some false claims that the supreme leader seemed to be. False claims that the supreme leader in Afghanistan had been killed. There's videos going around of the Taliban kind of sacking some Pakistani bases because I think on the ground the Pakistani military is not much of a match for the Taliban. But Taliban has no air force because I don't think we left the keys behind in those planes.

[Ryan Grim]

Haven't figured out how to how wire those bad boys.

[Krystal Ball]

No, they need Tom Cruise apparently no Tom Cruise. Top Gun too. He just finds an old jet and just hops in it and takes off. They. So they need somebody like that who can figure out how to fly those without that the Pakistan's Pakistan air force has been been striking Afghanistan. I saw some conspiracy theories that this was from that this was like that the US instructed them to do this to like to weaken. To weaken the Taliban so that Iran when. When Iran regime change happens that things will be calmer on the Iran Afghanistan border. I don't see any reason to credit any of that. I feel like this has its own logic going on to it. But anyway just letting people know that

[Ryan Grim]

maybe we didn't exactly discourage it. Maybe it's one of those. Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Well Trump, this could be his what, 15th war that he gets stopped.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

If he hurries up and stops.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, I lost count after a certain point.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, you do. You do. So much peace.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, you can check out that story at Dropsite News this morning.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm guessing it'll be in our newsletter. Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Awesome. Well we've got probably one more story to fit in the first half here. What do we want to do, do we want to do Paramount? Do we want to do Ryan, that story you've been working on?

[Krystal Ball]

Let's do Kat also. You want to do this one real quick?

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, let's do Cat.

[Saagar Enjeti]

What's going on with Cat? So we reporting. So Cat is running for Congress in Illinois, correct?

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

Chicago.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Chicago area.

[Krystal Ball]

She just had a, just had a debate. Kat Abu Gazella, Palestinian American, as the running as kind of the most left wing candidate against Daniel Biss, who was he the mayor of Evanston and kind of like an Elizabeth Warren type liberal.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. And progressive for sure, but not exactly like Bernie Wang.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. And then Laura Fine who is getting all of the, the APAC support. So it's kind of like a three way race between them. The latest poll I saw had Bis up by like 6, 7 points with Kat in second, which was, and then both of them beating Laura Fine, which is remarkable because Fine was kind of ex. You know, Fine had the pole position here. But it seems like the APAC money is actually dragging her down. It's, it's a very, it's this Evanston area, it's very well educated district and so once it got out that she was secretly backed by aipac, it seems like all of that money is, is as much of a handicap as it is helping her. But so Kat may actually win this race now. So we went to her campaign, we went to her for comment about, about what we're going to talk about now. I haven't heard back. Told her she's welcome to come on this on the show to talk about this as well. She has a, and let me put this up up on the screen. She has, it turns out her national Security advisor is, is, is quite the hawk. And so his name's Ben Mermel and he is a. So he's the guy that does our foreign policy and national security. So there's an email going around in activist circles that has gotten to me in which one of the kind of Washington based organizations reaches out and say hey, Kat's doing well. Can we get some clarification on what we've seen on her website which seems to be some unusually hawkish positions we see on the like we see on there that she seems kind of to the right, more hawkish than Trump on Taiwan, more hawkish than Trump on Ukraine, but she's great on Palestine. So what's going on here? And so, so this, they got back and I agreed to conceal the person's names that the person so that not this person but like that somebody would leak the email to me because it's, it's getting a lot of attention kind of in the background, but it's something that the public should know about too. So here, so I'll, I'll roll through these, these, you don't even need the questions, but you can pause this and read them if you want because the answers are, are fulsome and they, they, they kind of incorporate the question one. He talks about his role here. So number four. So this is about China and Taiwan.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You weren't supposed to scroll that far down, Ryan. You're supposed to get tired of reading by that point.

[Terry Dubrow]

Right?

[Krystal Ball]

So it asked about Chinatown because they said it. Look on the website, it looks like kind of concerning language on the website. Are you sure? Is this really what Cat believes when it comes to Taiwan? And so the quote here, if elected, Cat would strongly push for amending the Taiwan Relations act to include language dropping our strategic ambiguity towards defending the island from a Chinese invasion. Strategic ambiguity is actually precisely kind of what AOC was mocked for presenting when she was kind of babbling and kind of immune. Searching for an answer like that is literally the current American strategy towards Taiwan is to just babble and not answer so that China doesn't know like what we will actually do. And so what, what Kat is saying here through her advisor is that that doesn't work anymore, that we need to say that we're going to hit him. So as of now, China knows that Trump won't send the 7th Fleet or any other Indo Pacom assets to defend Taiwan in the event of an all out assault. We owe it to Taiwan and democracy to demonstrate that America will do everything possible to counter wars of aggression with force. Extremely hawkish position from Kat there on Palestine strong statement. The genocide in Gaza is a disgusting failure. You've heard her talk a lot about the genocide in Gaza and so nothing here would surprise you. But then he adds on her behalf. That does not mean that our historical impulse to use military force first is correct. It hardly ever is and often causes untold damage. There are a wide range of options available to both the Executive and Congress, precluding kinetic force, from sanctions to NGO support, all of which are likely to produce results when applied correctly. Cat is firmly an interventionist. The world is better off when America takes a leading role in it. But that role must be ethical and lawful and it must place human rights first so that, you know. So we don't want to necessarily do war, but we do want sanctions. We do want to fund Ngo's that do these like protests and support our favored folks inside these different countries and quote, firmly an interventionist. So I don't think that's what people would necessarily have expected from how people understand her when it comes to Palestine and then on Russia, Ukraine if elected.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, let's get to the good stuff.

[Krystal Ball]

If elected, CAT will hold the line. Russia cannot be allowed to eke out a win in Ukraine and CAT stands firmly against any attempt by the Trump administration to sell out our European allies to Putin's imperialism. CAT fully supports funding the Ukrainian war effort to the hilt until the Russian forces are degraded to the point where a mere restoration of pre war borders is possible or any other outcome preferable to the Ukrainian government. She strongly supports the forward deployment of air, naval and ground assets to the NATO front line as well as the positioning of dual use missile and drone interception systems. So ground assets, are we talking about American ground assets? Hopefully we can get some clarity from her on that. We must additionally surge MIM104 patient and this sounds like Ben Murmel here is kind of like one of the like a bit of a military geek. So he goes deep into the like weapons systems that he wants to see placed on the border. The Chinese are closely watching our actions in Ukraine and the outcome of this conflict will determine the nature of their attempt to seize Taiwan, possibly preventing it altogether. If Ukraine can pull off a diplomatic win. We owe it to those that gave their lives aggression throughout our history and people seeking freedom everywhere to not cower in fear. Kat will be that voice on the Hill and she won't stop until Russia is made to pay for its crimes. So I don't know what, like, what do you. Is that what you would have expected from.

[Ryan Grim]

No.

[Krystal Ball]

Shamron?

[Ryan Grim]

Not at all. Not firmly an interventionist. It's like, whoa. And so I mean, I guess my question is, you know, it's like I have a lot of, I guess, sort of charity towards new congressional candidates. Having myself been a congressional candidate in the past and knowing where I was coming from is just being like, you know, kind of a regular person who just wanted to serve the country. I mean, granted Kat has been in the political space for a long time. Right. But foreign policy outside of she's, you know, placed, planted her flag very effectively in Palestine. It's not like that's what she's known for.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

So, you know, I would be open to the idea that like she kind of just, she kind of outsourced this to Ben and hasn't really fully thought it through in which case, there's a lot of opportunity to say, you know, this is not. This is how we end up in the Iraq war. Right? This is how we end up bombing Libya. This is how we end up with failed states and mess, doing all these, like, color revolutions. And this is effectively the type of foreign policy we've had for decades going back into the Cold War. And, you know, if you want to do something different, this is not what it looks like. So I am, you know, I'm anxious to hear from her directly on this because this is very, very surprising to me that this is the type of language that is being used here.

[Krystal Ball]

There's also one other weird element here. This guy Ben, according to a. This G. He. This GW article, he was at this. He's quoted at a Pro Israel rally where he's. And I can, I can maybe put this on Twitter. But let me, let me find this. What is, what, what's his quote here like? It's like, what are you doing at the Pro Israel. So, Ben Mermel, here it is. Actually, I'll just. Here, let me put it up. Ben Mermel, a graduate student in the School of Public affairs, attended the Pro Israel rally alongside Harris Mowbray, who graduated from the School of International Service in 2002, referring to the nearby encampment. There's a lot of points that they're making over there that I also agree with. I think they've done a bad job policing the anti Semitism that sometimes rears its head within that movement. And I think that's turned quite a lot of people off. This comment aside, like during the genocide in Gaza, he. There was a encampment at GW and Ben went to the. Her advisor went to the pro Israel rally that protested the encampment. So that's why maybe more to your point, that she may have just outsourced this to this guy and he's like,

[Ryan Grim]

well, and that's very.

[Krystal Ball]

Getting up on the website and it's getting out to groups as official kind of campaign stuff. So she's responsible for it. But.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. If you don't have a really formed foreign policy view, the people you surround yourself with become really important. You know, if you, like, have a fully formed view and maybe you want someone who has a different ideological orientation to kind of push you and, you know, be the person in the room and says, well, have you thought about this? That's kind of a different deal. But if you're coming in somewhat unformed and you're bringing in this person who is Very hawkish and you know, just a couple years ago was going to pro Israel protests. Then you're, you know, that's obviously what's going to be reflecting your campaign. That's going to really help shape and mold your own thinking, you know, as you're, as you're kind of coming into this fresh. Yeah. I mean people have talked about like with, with aoc, Matt Duss is advising her and you can see that right in the, her language and her approach and the things she was saying at the Munich conference as well. And I think foreign policy has always been an area from. I remember when, you know, AOC first got elected and she got that question about Israel, Palestine and she was very like, she knew there were things, landmines here, but she didn't know exactly where they were. And she kind of had just like a general instinct of like, I want peace and Palestinians should have rights. But I don't know exactly what to say about this. That's kind of where she was. And I think she's always been much more comfortable on domestic policy than she has been on foreign policy. And so it reminds me a bit of that with Kat. Although again, I mean Kat has been a political, you know, she's been a political actor, not candidate, but a political actor for a long time. So anyway, those are some of my sort of like thoughts and reflections of just, you know, reacting to this in, in real time. But there's. I am definitely surprised to see what is in this, you know, campaign communication that purports to speak for, for her and her views.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I think also like we made to Cat. Yeah. There. No, the offer. Offer stands. Like, like we reached out to Cat. She's. And welcome, welcome to. Come on, we'll.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh yeah, absolutely.

[Krystal Ball]

Hear her, hear her perspective at length on this.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

But go ahead, Griffin.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I also think that there is a definite lack of like, okay, for the Taiwan one it's kind of hashtag random like for what we're doing there. But for the Ukraine one, I think there is actually like a vacuum of leftist perspective on the Ukraine war. Like, like, like. I don't think that there's like a lot of strong national figures on the left that are talking about how many people are dying every month there, that are talking about the average age of the Ukrainian soldier that are talking about how the front lines haven't moved in years or that we would have to actually deploy ground troops and start World War 3 to win back this landmine strewn land. So because there has not been even on Shows that I like that are pretty leftist, you know, I don't think the Majority Report talks a lot about that stuff. That's probably one of the biggest leftist shows, probably a show that Cat watches. So I think there has been like that vacuum on the Ukraine thing, but this is still pretty unacceptable. You have to, like, find, like, good people to surround you. But, you know, I do like that she's been good on ice, she's been good on Palestine, and she's been good on tv, which is important. You know, she goes on these CNN panels and she's awesome. She's like a great fighter. She's like, clearly someone we need. So I'm willing to like, say maybe she picked the wrong guy, but if these are her views, this is kind of a classic example of like, progressivism being too broad a term and like being like, oh, you can fit all sorts of stuff. You can be of, you know, you can be a we need to sack Vladimir Putin progressive, or you can be a non interventionist progressive. And it's such a broad term that it becomes kind of useless. And I think people that are on the more hardcore left should probably depart from the term. But, yeah, so, Kat, please come on the show.

[Ryan Grim]

I think the Ukraine point is an interesting one to dig into a little bit more. You know, early on in the Ukraine war, remember, there was a group of progressives, grasses who tried to put out some letter. I don't remember. It was like, Ryan, you probably remember better. It was like calling for a ceasefire or negotiations or diplomacy or something. It was. I remember it being very tame, right? It was very like, peace is good. You know, like, that was basically the vibe. And they faced so much backlash for penning this letter. And it worked. Like after that, everyone just kept their mouth shut and they're like, I guess we'll just gonna do this war forever and kind of like slowly feed in weapons and, you know, create some sort of, like miserable death, deadly destructive status quo. And here we are. And, you know, I mean, I understand, I understand why Ukraine is a difficult position for progressives because there are competing principles at stake here, right? Russia was the aggressor. It is an illegal war. You know, Ukraine is like, are the, the underdogs? Like, it's, it's not right what has been done. I would say, what are, you know, screwing around with Ukraine and using this as a proxy war is also not right. And then of course, the competing principle there is that people are dying. This war has no end in sight. And even though any resolution right now there's. It's not going to be a just resolution. There's just no doubt about that. It's going to be a very ugly and difficult pill to swallow. But meanwhile, people are dying, and the more time goes on, the worse the solution is likely to get for Ukraine. So I understand why that is a difficult issue for progressives to just kind of like, take a hard stand on. On and. Because you do have these competing principles at play. But, you know, by and large, at this point, with. With both parties and with the Trump administration, I mean, he barely mentioned Ukraine at all in his State of the Union. It's just become another one of these intractable, intractable conflicts where it is easy for every political actor to just pretend like it's not happening and allow a horrifying, grinding, deadly status quo and dangerous, by the way, status quo to persist. You know, I mean, it reminds, in a sense of Afghanistan where it was like, everyone knows this a mess. We don't even know why we're there anymore. Like, what are we even doing? And yet it just. It creates a logic of its own because politically, it's easier just to put it on the back burner and push it out of the news than to actually bring it to what ended up being a rather ugly conclusion from which Joe Biden himself, like, that's when his approval rating falls off and he never recovers. So that's kind of where we are with the Ukraine war, which is really an across the board, you know, Republican, Democrat, progressive, modern, everybody issue at this point, where it's like, no one really wants to focus on it or talk about it because it's easier not to.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And history nerds can fact check me, but this has lasted longer than World War I now, like four years.

[Ryan Grim]

This is.

[Krystal Ball]

And with frankly, no end in sight, other than the complete demographic collapse of. Of Ukraine coupled with a genuine democratic hit to. To Russia that will resonate and ring out for generations. It's insane.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And. All right,

[Saagar Enjeti]

sorry, did I cut you off, Ryan?

[Krystal Ball]

Nope, Nope.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Okay.

[Krystal Ball]

Just sputtering with rage.

[Saagar Enjeti]

All right, Cat, we'd love to talk to you about that. We'd love to keep talking more about the Ukraine war. Cause I do think it's a topic that fell by the wayside. And it's tough because I think, yeah, everyone kind of has just shrugged it off as never ending. But, yeah, that's gonna do it for this first half. We got a lot of topics in the second half. We wanted to talk about some horrible ICE video that's been unearthed by a reporter of a blind gentleman that then passed away after being left out in the cold. We've got some stuff on the SA we wanted to get to with Trump. And then now some China election interference claims about the 2020 election. And of course, our friends over at Paramount have won the day and looks like they will be the ones to purchase Warner Brothers. So we're gonna get all that some more time.

[Krystal Ball]

If we do have time. This plumber from the Green Party, a hand of the plumber, just won this massive election that could be like. Like a dagger in the heart of the Labor Party. Like, that might make Keir Starmer, like, literally the last Labor Prime Minister in. In world history, like, ever again in. In the.

[Ryan Grim]

Whoa.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Wow. Okay, let's go for that. I want to know more.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, we're doing that first, Ryan. All right, let's get to the plumber right now. See you all there. Breaking points dot com.

[Wells Adams]

Hey, this is Wells Adams with By Order of the Faithfuls podcast alongside my thoughts, fellow faithfuls and co hosts Tamara Judge and Dolores Catania. The three of us have been watching this season of the Traders, and we've been inside that castle, so we have insight. Unlike many others, this season of the Traders may be the best we've ever seen. Listen to By Order the faithfuls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ryan Grim]

Then she says, have you seen a photo of my son? And I'm like, who is this person?

[Host of Boys and Girls Podcast]

Welcome to the boys and girls podcast. Arranged marriage is basically a reality show, and you're auditioning for your soulmate, and who's judging only your entire family. I sacrificed myself to this ancient tradition, hoping to find love the right way. And instead, I found chaos, comedy, and a lot of cringe. Listen to boys and Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on Biggie? You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable.

[Krystal Ball]

Because I want to get confident.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

This is DJ Hester Prinz. Music is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist. 12 months, 12 areas of your life. Money, love, career, confidence. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ryan Grim]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.