2/28/25: Fired CFPB Director HITS BACK At Zuckerberg, Jamie Dimon, Tech Bros

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Episode: February 28, 2025
Title: Fired CFPB Director HITS BACK At Zuckerberg, Jamie Dimon, Tech Bros
Host: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Guest: Rohit Chopra, Former Director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB)
Release Date: February 28, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar, hosts Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti engage in a robust discussion with Rohit Chopra, the former Director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). Fired from his position by the Trump administration, Chopra uses this platform to address recent attacks from prominent figures like Mark Zuckerberg, Jamie Dimon, and various tech moguls. The conversation delves deep into the tensions between regulatory bodies and powerful financial and tech entities, shedding light on the broader implications for consumer protection and financial transparency in the United States.

Attacks on the CFPB by Big Banks and Tech Companies

Jamie Dimon's Criticism

The episode kicks off with Rohit Chopra addressing the vehement criticism he has received from Jamie Dimon, CEO of JPMorgan Chase. Chopra highlights the emotional and strategic motivations behind Dimon's attacks, suggesting that Dimon’s anger stems from the CFPB's scrutiny of big tech conglomerates entering the banking, lending, and payments sectors.

Chopra (03:07): "One of the reasons the CFPB has been targeted is because you have big tech conglomerates that are looking to get into banking, lending, and payments, and they don't even want a minor speed bump in that process."

Mark Zuckerberg's Allegations

The conversation shifts to Mark Zuckerberg's appearance on Joe Rogan's podcast, where Zuckerberg downplays the significance of the CFPB, implying that referencing the agency weakens his position.

Chopra (06:44): "Elizabeth Warren had set up. Oh, great."

Chopra counters Zuckerberg's stance by elucidating the CFPB's role in regulating financial privacy and preventing fraud, especially as tech companies like Meta (formerly Facebook) attempt to integrate financial services into their platforms.

Elon Musk's Tweet

Elon Musk's provocative tweet urging the deletion of the CFPB as a "duplicative regulatory agency" is another focal point. Chopra interprets Musk's actions as part of a broader campaign by big tech to dismantle regulatory barriers that impede their financial ambitions.

Chopra (30:11): "During my time as director, we returned... $9 billion in refunds and penalties... We want your financial privacy, financial fraud. These are important laws on the books that we have to enforce."

The Role of the CFPB in Protecting Consumers

Chopra passionately defends the CFPB's mission to safeguard consumers against financial malpractices. He emphasizes the agency's efforts in combating fraudulent activities, ensuring fair access to banking services, and updating outdated regulations to better protect modern consumers.

Chopra (08:08): "If you're a social media company, please. We know that their tentacles are all over... we have laws on the books... the job of the CFPB was to enforce it."

Misconceptions and Criticisms of the CFPB

Throughout the interview, Chopra addresses various misconceptions propagated by critics, asserting that the CFPB's actions are grounded in enforcing existing laws rather than governmental overreach. He refutes claims that the agency is merely a tool for political agendas, instead positioning it as an essential watchdog against corporate overreach and consumer exploitation.

Chopra (43:19): "But certainly a person's speech cannot trip the law. What trips the law is denying or redlining based on a protected characteristic like religion or race."

Operation Choke Point Allegations

The discussion touches upon Operation Choke Point, a controversial initiative allegedly involving the CFPB in targeting specific industries. Chopra clarifies that Operation Choke Point was a Justice Department operation unrelated to CFPB's consumer-focused mandate, thereby distancing the agency from the initiative.

Chopra (41:11): "I recall that this was a Justice Department operation... the CFPB can only enforce consumer laws."

Enforcement Actions and Victims Relief Fund

Chopra highlights the CFPB's Victims Relief Fund, which has successfully returned billions of dollars to consumers affected by financial misconduct. He defends the fund against accusations of being a "slush fund," explaining its role in compensating victims when defendants are judgment-proof.

Chopra (30:11): "During my time as director, we collected... $9 billion in refunds and penalties. The penalties paid by companies like Apple, Goldman Sachs, Wells Fargo... compensate victims across the country."

Future of the CFPB and Regulatory Landscape

Looking ahead, Chopra expresses uncertainty about the CFPB's future amidst mounting political pressure. He warns of potential defunding efforts and the broader implications of such moves on consumer protection and market fairness. Despite the challenges, Chopra remains hopeful about bipartisan support for holding powerful entities accountable.

Chopra (66:44): "We are starting to see places where there is a desire to hold powerful people accountable... Jump ball right now."

Conclusion

In closing, Rohit Chopra reinforces the importance of the CFPB in maintaining financial integrity and protecting consumer rights. He calls for a unified stance across the political spectrum to preserve the agency's autonomy and efficacy, ensuring that financial institutions remain accountable to the American populace.

Chopra (65:14): "I don't take it personally... Equal justice under the law. That has got to mean something."

Notable Quotes

• Chopra (03:07): "One of the reasons the CFPB has been targeted is because you have big tech conglomerates that are looking to get into banking, lending, and payments, and they don't even want a minor speed bump in that process."

• Chopra (08:08): "If you're a social media company, please. We know that their tentacles are all over... we have laws on the books... the job of the CFPB was to enforce it."

• Chopra (30:11): "During my time as director, we collected... $9 billion in refunds and penalties. The penalties paid by companies like Apple, Goldman Sachs, Wells Fargo... compensate victims across the country."

• Chopra (43:19): "But certainly a person's speech cannot trip the law. What trips the law is denying or redlining based on a protected characteristic like religion or race."

• Chopra (66:44): "We are starting to see places where there is a desire to hold powerful people accountable... Jump ball right now."

Final Thoughts

This episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar offers a deep dive into the ongoing battle between regulatory bodies like the CFPB and powerful financial and tech entities. Through Rohit Chopra's insightful commentary, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the challenges facing consumer protection in an increasingly complex financial landscape. The discussion underscores the essential role of independent regulatory agencies in upholding market fairness and protecting the rights of everyday Americans.

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Note: This summary is based on a provided transcript excerpt and adheres to the request for a detailed, structured overview with notable quotes and relevant timestamps.

Transcript

[Rohit Chopra]

Calling all 9 9ers. Now streaming, it's the more better podcast with two episodes of Brooklyn 99 fun. Hosts Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumero welcomed former castmates Chelsea Ferretti and Joe Litrulio for one episode each. To laugh and swap stories like Andre.

[Ryan Grim]

Would always be like trying something.

[Rohit Chopra]

They're like, do less, do less. Yeah, we'll do less all the time. But then some of the biggest things.

[Ryan Grim]

Were the biggest hits, like vindication.

[Rohit Chopra]

Remember, listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast Are youe a Charlotte? The incredible Cynthia Nixon joins me this week for a conversation filled with memories and stories. I didn't even know Cynthia could have been Carrie.

[Ryan Grim]

When I first read the script, they asked me to read for Carrie, as I think they asked you to read for Carrie.

[Rohit Chopra]

And then I did and they were.

[Ryan Grim]

Like, yeah, not so much.

[Rohit Chopra]

You can't miss this. Listen to Are youe a Charlotte? On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Are you hungry? Colleen Witt here. And Eating While Broke is back for season four every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This season we've got a legendary lineup serving up broke dishes and even better stories. On the menu. We have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa Ford, October London, and Carrie Harper Howey turning Big Macs into big moves. Catch Eating While Broke every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you get your favorite shows, Come Hungry for season. Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Ryan Grim]

Independent media just played a truly massive.

[Rohit Chopra]

Role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad, free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] Part of the reason the CFPB has been targeted is because you have big tech conglomerates that are looking to get into banking, lending and payments and they don't even want a minor speed bump in that process. Mr. Musk. Elon Musk. He has stated they want Twitter X to become a bank, the ability to move and track payments across its platforms. And I think that it's reasonable for Americans to wonder, why is he targeting this little agency?

[Ryan Grim]

Today's guest is from one angle, a hero to millions of people for returning billions of dollars to consumers. As the director, former director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau to Jamie Dimon, he's an arrogant, out of touch SOB to billionaires like Mark Zuckerberg and Mark Andreessen. He's a vile threat to the American Republic. He is Rohit Chopra, former head of the cfpb, former FTC commissioner pushed out recently by Donald Trump. Welcome, Rohit.

[Rohit Chopra]

Great to be with you.

[Ryan Grim]

So let's start. We have a lot to get through because there has been a lot thrown your way and at the way of the cfpb. But let's start with Jamie Dimon, who as we just put up there during a town hall with his own banking employees, just utterly unleashed on you. Arrogant, out of touch, son of a gun. Except he didn't say gun. The family program. So we'll stick with gun. Why is Jamie Dimon so angry at you?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, I don't know exactly.

[Ryan Grim]

You probably have some idea.

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, I get it. This is an extremely emotional time for him and others. One of President Trump's first set of remarks at Davos, actually, he called out Jamie Dimon and Brian Moynihan, the CEO of bank of America by name. The issue of debanking, de platforming is one that has really cut across. And also there's some real questions about the lawsuit that we brought against JPMorgan Chase and other banks for allowing fraud to fester on Zelle. I think that lawsuit will let it work through the courts. But there are some questions about whether the new CFPB will simply defund all of its investigations against big banks and big tech companies. And that's really an open one for all of us.

[Ryan Grim]

There was also something about Jamie Dimon didn't like, something you guys were pushing about letting people move their money from one bank to another.

[Rohit Chopra]

What was that one? Yes. Some of the largest banks, and I know he was personally very upset. The idea of giving consumers the ability to switch their accounts more seamlessly. You might remember, Ryan, the Move youe Money movement. Well, remember when you actually couldn't change your phone carrier?

[Ryan Grim]

That's right.

[Rohit Chopra]

Unless you switched your phone number. And the FCC issued an order saying, no, let's give consumers a little bit more power to vote with their feet. That's exactly one of the laws that had been on the books, it sat dormant. But during my time there, we wanted to make that a reality because we saw the billions of dollars that large banks, credit card companies were able to harvest because they create an obstacle course to switching accounts.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, so you brought up debanking. Let's move to that one, which is not the one I have in here, H1, but let's start with H2. This is Mark Zuckerberg appearing on Joe Rogan's podcast. I want people to notice that when he's about to say the word consumer, he pretends to forget the name of the agency because it isn't helpful to him, I think, to call it the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, because you're starting on your back foot when you're a company that says you're against that. So let's roll H2 here. And then I want to get you to respond to this Zuckerberg allegation. We had organizations that were looking into us that were, like, not really involved with social media. Like, I like the cfpb. Like, this financial. I don't even know what it stands for. It's the, it's the financial organization that.

[Rohit Chopra]

Elizabeth Warren had set up. Oh, great.

[Ryan Grim]

And, and it's basically. It's like, we're not a bank. The banking section. Yeah. No, so, so, like, we're not a bank. Right. It's like, like what, what does Meta.

[Rohit Chopra]

Have to do with this?

[Ryan Grim]

But they kind of found some theory that they wanted to investigate, and it's like, okay, clearly they were trying really hard, right, to, to like, find. Find some theory. But it, like, I don't know, it just, it kind of like throughout the, the, the, the, the party and the.

[Rohit Chopra]

Government, there was just sort of.

[Ryan Grim]

I don't know if it's. I don't know how this stuff works. I mean, I've never been in government.

[Rohit Chopra]

I don't know if it's like a.

[Ryan Grim]

Directive or it's just like a quiet.

[Rohit Chopra]

Consensus that, like, we don't like these guys. They're not doing what we want, we're going to punish them.

[Ryan Grim]

But, but it's, it's tough to be at the other end of that.

[Rohit Chopra]

What was it like?

[Ryan Grim]

Well, it's not good. The thing that I think is actually the toughest, though, is it's global. Right? And really, when you think about it, the US Government should be defending its companies, right? Not be the tip of the spear attacking its companies. All right, so Zuckerberg, who later kind of implies, previous in this clip, he had said that because they were getting pressure to Censor Covid content. Then all of a sudden, the CFPB comes after them over, you know, which he implies as part of this kind of pressure campaign against Facebook. So what was CFPB's role in going after Facebook?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, it's actually funny in some ways, because this is a company that just about five years ago, launched a big ploy to start its own currency, to start its own way.

[Ryan Grim]

They had a name for it. What were they gonna call it?

[Rohit Chopra]

It's called Libra.

[Ryan Grim]

That's right.

[Rohit Chopra]

And what you saw was an attempt. It was a surveillance program, essentially, that if they could embed payments throughout their whole empire of digital properties, they would be able to track payments across the.

[Ryan Grim]

Board, like cookies to the next degree.

[Rohit Chopra]

Yeah. And in some ways, that is really what many say is a goal to ultimately move toward personalized pricing. And look, the truth is, if you call companies, some of these big tech companies. We are a social media company. Please. We know that their tentacles are all over. And many have significant aspirations in banking, lending, and payments. We have seen that with Google. We have seen that with Apple. And there are laws on the books, Ryan, that are financial privacy laws. There are laws about how you can traffic credit information like the credit bureaus do. So I'm not gonna comment on the investigation. They disclosed it to their investors, the nature of it. But to suggest that some of these companies are not engaging in some of the same exact practices as big financial conglomerates, I mean, is laughable. I'll tell you that. This is also, I think part of the reason the CFPB has been targeted is because you have big tech conglomerates that are looking to get into banking, lending and payments, and they don't even want a minor speed bump in that process. They don't even want, I think, to be held to the same standards that when consumers are defrauded or if there's errors in their accounts or if their information is being harvested and trafficked to those overseas, I don't think they want to even touch that. And the truth is, there's laws on the books, and the job of the CFPB was to enforce it.

[Ryan Grim]

So this appearance came after Marc Andreessen, venture capitalist, was also on Joe Rogan. Let's move to Marc Andreessen 1. I think that's H1. Here we have this thing called independent Federal agencies. So, like, for example, we have this.

[Rohit Chopra]

Thing called the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau.

[Ryan Grim]

Cfpb, which was the. It's sort of Elizabeth Warren's personal agency that she gets to control. And it's an independent agency that just.

[Rohit Chopra]

Gets to run and do whatever it wants. Right.

[Ryan Grim]

And if you read the Constitution, like.

[Rohit Chopra]

There is no such thing as an.

[Ryan Grim]

Independent agency, and yet there it is. What does her agency do? Whatever she wants. What does it do, though?

[Rohit Chopra]

Basically, terrorize financial.

[Ryan Grim]

Terrorize financial institutions, prevent new competition, new startups that want to compete with the big banks.

[Rohit Chopra]

Really? Oh, yeah. How so? Just by terrorizing anybody who tries to.

[Ryan Grim]

Do anything new in financial services. Can you give me an example? Debanking.

[Rohit Chopra]

This is where a lot of the debanking comes from, is these agencies.

[Ryan Grim]

So debanking is when you as either.

[Rohit Chopra]

A person or your company are literally.

[Ryan Grim]

Kicked out of the banking system.

[Rohit Chopra]

Like they did to Kanye.

[Ryan Grim]

Exactly like they did to Kanye. My partner, Ben's father, has been debanked.

[Rohit Chopra]

Really?

[Ryan Grim]

We had an employee for what? For having the wrong politics. For saying unacceptable things under current banking regulations. Okay, here's a great thing.

[Rohit Chopra]

Under current banking regulations, after all the.

[Ryan Grim]

Reforms of the last 20 years, there's now a category called a politically exposed person pep.

[Rohit Chopra]

And if you are a pep, you are required by financial regulators to kick them off, to kick them out of your bank.

[Ryan Grim]

You're not allowed to have.

[Rohit Chopra]

What if you're politically on the left?

[Ryan Grim]

Well, that's fine. No, because they're not politically exposed, no one on the left gets debanked. I have not heard of a single instance of any. So much to unpack there. Let's start with his PEP claim. What is a politically exposed person? Is there anything accurate in what he said there?

[Rohit Chopra]

There's a lot there. First of all, a politically exposed person certainly would be someone who's like a government official, who, for example, could be subjected to bribery, other things, but putting all of the acronyms.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, it's completely misclassified. What a political statement.

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, I think the point, though, I would say there's a place where I think is important, which is that when it comes to debanking, I don't think people should ever lose their account because of their exercising their religion speech. And I'll tell you, one of the first things I did years ago was to put forth a stronger policy that made it clear when that type of discrimination or debanking ran afoul of the law, guess who sued to block it?

[Ryan Grim]

Who's that?

[Rohit Chopra]

It was actually the bank lobby and the Chamber of Commerce. Then more recently, you know, we went through some court processes.

[Ryan Grim]

What's their business rationale for wanting to block that?

[Rohit Chopra]

I have no idea, other than to. They were saying that, well, that only really applies to lending, it doesn't apply to banking. And we could go through the argument about whether the law prohibits that. So I said, okay, we're going to propose a rule. We're going to use a different procedure to make clear that you cannot close someone's account or otherwise take a negative action like that based on some of these core things. We did not hear a peep of support from the big banks and others. So I think we need to start looking at some of the facts here. We should not allow deplatforming and debanking unless there is some sort of legitimate reason. And I will share with you, we have heard a lot from the banks and others about this, but what we haven't seen is them showing their data. And one of the big places that they are closing accounts is using algorithms. And sometimes they might not even know the answer why they are closing those accounts. But the idea that the CFPB was somehow, I mean, I know he's conflating a whole set of other regulators, and we also know that there are companies that he had invested in that were repeat offenders and that the CFPB had to take multiple actions against, not just by me, but even my predecessor put in place by President Trump. So I don't know what that is, but I think the idea that somehow both the banks and these fintech companies, we were applying and aggressively enforcing the law when they were egregiously violating.

[Ryan Grim]

Did you. Did you run into any progressive opposition? Because I know sometimes progressive organizations would run campaigns to say, if this person should not actually have access to banking services. So did you kind of push up against.

[Rohit Chopra]

There had been, you know, it was not. There was definitely. For example, I had undertaken an initiative with respect to greater accountability for BlackRock. BlackRock is an investment giant. I felt that if they were going to be pursuing certain policy goals when taking over banks, they should actually go through the process of saying, we're taking over a bank, rather than relying on some loopholes that say, well, we're just passive. We're not doing anything. And, yeah, I'm sure there was others who felt, why don't we just, you know, kind of leave them alone? Maybe they agree with the goals they're doing. My point was different, is that it's really about power. Who should have the power to determine whether you're getting your account closed because of no reason or a questionable reason, or how they're saying they're passive, but are really exerting a lot of pressure on boards and CEOs. So I think we gotta stick to our principles, which is that the laws on the books are supposed to prevent abuse of power. And sure, maybe I agree with some of the. Maybe I agree with some of the BlackRock voting policies on Chicago, like, environmental stuff, but it doesn't matter. I mean, they should still have to go through the process that we have in place in our laws to avoid abuse of that power, and especially monopoly power. Hey, y'all, it's your girl, Cheekies. And I'm back with a brand new season of your favorite podcast, Cheekies and Chill. I'll be sharing even more personal stories with you guys, and I know a lot of people are going to attack me. Why? Are you going to go visit your dad? Your mom wouldn't be okay with it. I'm going to tell you guys right now. I know my mother and I know my mom had a very forgiving heart. That is my story on plastic surgery. This is my truth. I think the last time I cried like that was when I lost my mom like that, like, yelling. I was like, no. I was like, oh. And I thought, what did I do wrong? And as always, you'll get my exclusive take on topics like love, personal growth, health, family ties, and more. And don't forget, I'll also be dishing out my best advice to you on episodes of Dear Cheekies. So my fiance and I have been together for 10 years. In the first two years of being together, I find out he is cheating on me, not only with women, but also with men. What should I do? Okay, where do I start? That's not love. He doesn't love you enough. Because if he loved you, he'd be faithful. It's going to be an exciting year, and I hope that you can join me. Listen to Cheekies and Chill, Season 4 as part of the My Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ryan Grim]

When I smoke weed, I get lost in the music. I like to isolate each instrument.

[Rohit Chopra]

The rhythmic bass, the harmonies on the piano, sticky melody. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Careful, babe.

[Ryan Grim]

There's someone crossing the street.

[Rohit Chopra]

Sorry, I didn't see him there.

[Ryan Grim]

If you feel different, you drive different.

[Rohit Chopra]

Don't drive high. It's dangerous and illegal everywhere. A message from NHTSA and the Ad Council.

[Ryan Grim]

Dr. Joy here.

[Rohit Chopra]

You may know me from therapy for black girls, where we're celebrating 400 episodes of the podcast. That's a whole lot of girl me too moments. For years, we've had deep, thoughtful and inspiring conversations about black women's mental health. And now we're celebrating this milestone in a big way. In this special episode, Peloton Yogi Chelsea Jackson Roberts shares how yoga has taught her to stay grounded and present while balancing motherhood and self care. I can't control my partner. I can't control my child. I can't control anyone outside the way that I govern myself in this world. And the celebration doesn't stop there.

[Ryan Grim]

We'll continue this milestone with Dr. Lauren Mims, who joins me to discuss the.

[Rohit Chopra]

Powerful, yet sometimes challenging transition from girlhood to womanhood for Black femmes. Together, we explore how we navigate this transformative journey with strength and grace. Black girlhood is giggling. It's sisterhood. But it is also, I think, focusing on learning how to cope with really difficult things that are happening with insights like these. This 400th episode celebration is one for the books. Listen to therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ryan Grim]

So you passed a rule to bar debanking and you've got.

[Rohit Chopra]

We proposed one. We'll see if it gets finalized.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, that's, that's an interesting point. It's all House Republicans are actually moving to repeal it. I don't know if you noticed this with a piece of their legislation. So have you been surprised to see one of the number one attacks against the CFPB being that it was doing the thing that actually it's trying to ban?

[Rohit Chopra]

Not really. I mean, you saw even those on the right push back very hard on whatever that soliloquy was. That being said, I think let's put our money where our mouth is and say let's all get on record across the ideological spectrum that people should have a right to a bank account. And we see so many people pushed out of the banking system and the economic impacts of that are real. Now, of course, if they're engaged in money laundering, criminal fraud, others. Sure. I mean, I do favor some updates that give, you know, people the ability to have some access to the banking system. And many, for example, are kicked out because of overdraft and overdraft fee churning. We gotta make sure that people, when you're, when you're kicked out of the banking system, it's almost like kicking someone in the economy.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. So when he says that CFPB is terrorizing financial companies and blocking fintechs and other startups from competing with big banks, what does he mean by that?

[Rohit Chopra]

That's in direct conflict with what you just mentioned. Was JP Morgan Chase's Criticism we actually put into place the ability for smaller players to eat the lunch of their bigger competitors if they're providing better rates.

[Ryan Grim]

Of service, because you're setting up a pathway for people to leave the big tech to switch.

[Rohit Chopra]

And that was strongly, strongly supported by those new firms that were trying to do it. And look, some of them are doing some great things that allow you to get lower interest rates on your loans, higher rates on your savings. Look at what some of the banks offered. Even as the Fed raised rates enormously, people's deposit rates barely budged. And we ended up needing to investigate some of that, including suing Capital One for cheating people out of billions of dollars. I think we want to put more power in the hands of consumers for them to fire a company with bad customer service and to vote with their feet.

[Ryan Grim]

So some of the companies financed by Andreessen in the fintech space or the crypto space say that the CFPB has prevented them from doing what they want to do. What does he mean by that?

[Rohit Chopra]

How do you respond to crypto? No, no, no. All I know is, you know, right now in terms of crypto, most of that was really a confrontation with other agencies, not with the cfpb. The place the CFPB was always looking at is new digital payments, digital currencies, so video game platforms, you know, things like Facebook's Libra project where it would be used to pay at stores or online. So we were always trying to figure out what's the way we can create these new digital technologies without it being ruined by fraudsters, errors. And how do you make sure there's some base level of consumer protection that people have had on their debit cards and credit cards for decades and on fintech companies? I don't know. I mean, certainly there have been venture capital firms who have been annoyed that the CFPB has taken some of their law breaking companies to court. And sometimes we battle it out in court, but certainly we prevailed in many cases. And I'll tell you, many of them are extremely well financed to fight back very hard.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm sure they are. So one of the arguments Mark Zuckerberg also rolled out in that interview is that from a national security and a kind of geopolitical perspective, the Silicon Valley and big tech in the United States ought to be just defended rather than attacked. Let's play H3 here gets you a response. This other Zuckerberg argument, I think the real issue is that when the U.S.

[Rohit Chopra]

Government does that to its tech industry.

[Ryan Grim]

It'S basically just open season around the rest of the world, the EU. I pulled these numbers. The EU has fined the tech companies more than $30 billion over the last, I think it was like 10 or 20 years. Holy shit. So when you, when you think about it, like, okay, there's, it's like, you know, $100 million here, a couple billion dollars there. But what I think really adds up to is this is sort of like a kind of EU wide policy for how they want to deal with American tech. It's almost like a tariff. And I think the US Government basically gets to decide how are they going to deal with that.

[Rohit Chopra]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

Because if the US Government, if some other country was screwing with another industry that we cared about, the US Government.

[Rohit Chopra]

Would probably find some way to put pressure on them.

[Ryan Grim]

But I think what happened here is actually the complete opposite. The US Government led the kind of attack against the companies which then just made it. So the EU is basically. And all these other places are just.

[Rohit Chopra]

Free to just go to town on.

[Ryan Grim]

All the American companies and do whatever you want. What would you say to Zuckerberg there?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, you know, we've all gotten various forms of questions. For example, in the past few years we did a number of enforcement actions against certain Japanese automakers whose lending and credit reporting was completely botched. Now the way we do it is we look at consumer complaints, we'll look at where there's actual harm. And I do think it's important for us to prove, you know, where are we finding this? Non compliance. But on the other hand, this is a strange comment in some way he's made because it was actually, and I was an FTC commissioner at the time, during the Trump administration, we had a bipartisan antitrust complaint against Facebook. Same thing happened on Google. And those have carried forward across administrations. And here's the reason why in the US we want our economy progressing not based on cheating, but on competing. And we have found a number of cases where big firms, whether they're domestic, whether they're foreign, have been cornering the market or monopolizing it. And we have laws on the books. And just because they are global conglomerates, that does not mean they should not honor our laws. I have to tell you, I really don't think that all of these firms genuinely think of themselves as American companies. I think some of them think of themselves as just a multinational investor base and the North Star is profit. And if they wanna get rid of laws in countries across the world, that's what they're gonna do. But to suggest that Facebook and other big tech Companies have been just so squeaky clean when it comes to following the law is, frankly, a joke.

[Ryan Grim]

And so, speaking of getting rid of laws or ignoring them, this is Elon Musk's famous tweet where he said, delete cfpb. There are too many duplicative regulatory agencies. Interestingly, that was a reply to somebody who was correcting Marc Andreessen and saying, hey, man, you're wrong about this. Actually, the CFPB is against debanking and is fighting it. And Musk, interestingly, comes in and says, basically saying, I don't care. Like, delete this and then put up H5. The White House very quickly put out this statement saying, CFPB isn't a Wall street regulator, it's a Main street regulator, and they're effectively trying to move to shut it down in their list of bill of indictments, basically against them. They list a bunch of things, and I want to run through some of them since we got you here and got some time. So the White House says CFPB targeted a Chicago small business after it complained about the city's rampant crime. That sounds bad. Why'd the CFPB do that?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, you'd have to ask President Trump's CFPB director, because she's the one who brought that case. I reviewed that case. The case was actually a lending discrimination case where a mortgage lender in Chicago essentially was refusing and not offering mortgage loans to certain neighborhoods. I think the idea that it was somehow about. I don't even know what that bullet was saying. But what's funny is that it has nothing to do with that bullet, and it was brought under the last Trump administration. Another one of those bullets, I just noticed, talks about our victims relief fund. During my time as director, we returned.

[Ryan Grim]

Is that the one that they call a slush fund?

[Rohit Chopra]

Slush fund. And what's funny is that it's a victims relief fund. During my time, we collected, I think, $9 billion in refunds and penalties. And here's how it works. The penalties paid by companies like Apple, Goldman Sachs, Wells Fargo, they go to compensate victims where the defendant may be totally bankrupt. Judgment proof. So we want a judgment, I believe it was, for $2.7 billion against a nationwide debt relief scammer. We were able to make so many of those victims whole because of that victim's relief fund. So we're talking about something that has really put money in the pockets of people across the country. And to suggest that it is something that is trying to do something outside of its laws. Look, I Hate to say it, Mr. Musk, Elon Musk. He has stated they want Twitter X to become essentially a bank, the ability to move and track payments across its platforms. And I think that it's reasonable for Americans to wonder why is he targeting this little agency? And I think a lot of the opposition is coming from tech conglomerates because it has been a little bit. The agency has been a speed bump in their plans to conquer payments and banking. And I think that that's. Americans deserve to have their financial privacy, financial fraud. These are important laws on the books that we have to enforce and we shouldn't just be enforcing it against banks.

[Ryan Grim]

So the White House goes on. They say the CFPB granted itself broad new powers in the waning hours of the lame duck Biden administration. Described as classic quote, government overreach. The agency gave itself the authority to regulate Americans checking accounts by dictating government price controls and unilaterally buried $50 billion in medical debt. Let's take those one by one. So when they say you're dictating government price controls, what are they referring to there?

[Rohit Chopra]

So what I think is that there had been very serious abuses across the marketplace when it came to give you.

[Ryan Grim]

A hint, if you click their link, it talks about overdraft services.

[Rohit Chopra]

We uncovered a number of serious, serious wrongdoing on overdraft, including manipulation of payment order and more. So here's what we do.

[Ryan Grim]

That's when they move the time that they hit your.

[Rohit Chopra]

Exactly, exactly. So instead of one overdraft fee, you might get three or four in a day.

[Ryan Grim]

So they're calling that dictating price control.

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, here's what we did. We took a look at overdraft lending because you essentially it's a loan. And we found that even if you were overdrawing 35 cents, you might get hit with a $35 fee.

[Ryan Grim]

I've been there.

[Rohit Chopra]

So the original law says the following. You gotta fully disclose the terms and conditions of loans. And what we found is in 1969, the Federal Reserve created a carve out for a specific set of circumstances. It was when you were mailing paper checks through the U.S. postal Service. Sometimes it was delayed, sometimes your paycheck came later. And they said because you can't really predict this the bank, you don't have to give all these disclosures. You can just charge a reasonable fee. We then looked at today and now overdraft is overwhelmingly debit card purchases and they're small purchases. So here's what we said. We said, let's update that exemption and say in general, you got to fess up as to what the interest rate you're charging. Fully disclose that interest rate on the loans you're extending. But if you don't want to do that, just charge a reasonable fee and we'll publish. We'll publish what that average is so they don't have to charge $5 a loaf. They want to keep making big money, they can disclose the interest rate. We really thought of this as modernizing an outdated regulation and making sure that people are being upfront and honest about the interest rate they're charging on a loan.

[Ryan Grim]

All right, so that's what the White House called dictating government price controls. Then they say unilaterally buried $50 billion in medical debt. What do they mean by that?

[Rohit Chopra]

Here's what I speculate. We did a multi year analysis.

[Ryan Grim]

I can give you a hint by.

[Rohit Chopra]

Clicking on of credit reports.

[Ryan Grim]

Midnight rulemaking from Liz Warren's favorite agency spells even more bad news for cash strapped Americans. The Daily caller.

[Rohit Chopra]

So in 2021, we completed a major analysis of credit reports. It used to be that your credit report, the items that were in debt collection, was largely credit cards. But something flipped and we found that debt collectors were parking medical bills on people's credit report. And they were very systemic issues with inaccuracy. Many people already paid it or it was supposed to be paid by the insurance company. And after we published our analysis, the big credit reporting conglomerates immediately said, we're going to really take off most of this. We also had evidence that it was not even predictive of your repayment on your auto loan or credit card. So we didn't want to just take volunteers for this. We said, you know what, the law actually prohibits medical information from appearing on credit reports. So we updated the rule to put serious limitations and essentially forbidden the parking of these medical bills on the credit reports. It would still include, for example, medical bills you paid on a credit card, but the actual bills that you were stuck in the doom loop between the insurance company, the hospital and others, we found that that was, it was coercive. It was a way to coerce people into paying debt they don't owe. Now, of course, hospitals, others, they still have many other ways to collect. In some cases they sue people. But we thought that that was a very reasonable update to stop systemic abuses. And it was broadly supported. And we've seen states across the country enact their own state laws to prohibit that abuse as well. Hey y'all, it's your girl. Cheekies. And I'm back with a brand new season of your favorite podcast, Cheekies and Chill. I'll be sharing even more personal stories with you guys, and I know a lot of people are going to attack me. Why? Are you going to go visit your dad? Your mom wouldn't be okay with it. I'm going to tell you guys right now. I know my mother and I know my mom had a very forgiving heart. That is my story on plastic surgery. This is my truth. I think the last time I cried like that was when I lost my mom like that, like, yelling. I was like, no. I was like, oh. And I thought, what did I do wrong? And as always, you'll get my exclusive take on topics like love, personal growth, health, family ties, and more. And don't forget, I'll also be dishing out my best advice to you on episodes of Dear Cheekies. So my fiance and I have been together for 10 years. In the first two years of being together, I find out he is cheating on me, not only with women, but also with men. What should I do? Okay, where do I start? That's not love. He doesn't love you enough. Because if he loved you, he'd be faithful. It's going to be an exciting year and I hope that you can join me. Listen to Cheekies and Chill Season four as part of the My Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ryan Grim]

When I smoke weed, I get lost in the music. I like to isolate each instrument.

[Rohit Chopra]

The rhythmic bass, the harmonies on the piano, sticky melody. Hey, hey, hey, hey. Careful, babe.

[Ryan Grim]

There's someone crossing the street.

[Rohit Chopra]

Sorry, I didn't see him there.

[Ryan Grim]

If you feel different, you drive different.

[Rohit Chopra]

Don't drive high. It's dangerous and illegal everywhere. A message from NHTSA and the Ad Council.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm Tomer Cohen, LinkedIn's Chief Product Officer.

[Rohit Chopra]

If you're just as curious as I am about the way things are built.

[Ryan Grim]

The insights behind what it takes to.

[Rohit Chopra]

Create a world renowned product, then tune.

[Ryan Grim]

Into my podcast Building one.

[Rohit Chopra]

There's.

[Ryan Grim]

There's so much to learn. Like how Patagonia innovates with its supply chain. We had to go out to farmers and convince them it was really damn hard.

[Rohit Chopra]

Or the way Adobe thinks about the first interaction somebody has with Photoshop. I was always so fascinated by how people navigate and find their way.

[Ryan Grim]

Ever wanted to know how Nike builds.

[Rohit Chopra]

Emotion into the Jordan brand?

[Ryan Grim]

You have to be obsessed with the.

[Rohit Chopra]

Current state of the human condition.

[Ryan Grim]

And it doesn't stop there. What about how Glean reinvented knowledge? Search with AI you can learn about how a Michelin star chef is redesigning seeds for flavor and how Pixar is nurturing a creative culture.

[Rohit Chopra]

Listen to Building One on the iHeartRadio app, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ryan Grim]

So my co host Emily couldn't be here for this, but she wanted me to ask you about something that happened at CFPB before you got there. Which is what? And here's how she put it the CFPB so does Rohit agree with this assessment in the Washington Examiner? The CFPB did play a key role, according to a report from the FDIC's inspector general in the Obama era. Operation Choke Point Even more disturbing, for the past few years the CFPB has wielded its enforcement authority over housing discrimination to effectively censor speech with which it disagrees. Let's take them in two parts. 1. Operation Chokepoint that was an effort, as I recall by the FBI to clamp down on gun trafficking by basically, I think debanking a bunch of arms dealers, which of course then caught up a lot of people, citizens who were involved and selling weapons, which the right would say is, look, this is second amendment protected activity. So what's your understanding of what CFPB's role was in Operation Chokepoint?

[Rohit Chopra]

I don't know. And what I recall was that this was a Justice Department operation, but there was really no consumer law involved and the CFPB can only really enforce those consumer laws. And I also understand that it was a lot of business accounts. So as far as I know, the CFPB during that time was also worried about bank account access, trying to make sure there is fair access to bank accounts. So I don't have all the details, but it would surprise me because consumer law is the only thing the CFPB can really pursue when it comes to savings and checking accounts.

[Ryan Grim]

So what about wielding your enforcement authority over housing discrimination to censor speech?

[Rohit Chopra]

I have really no clue where that allegation comes from. I think it is possible when there are redlining cases, there's data that you take a look at as to where are people denying or not offering loans. And redlining is the concept where you may not even get an application, you just may refuse refused to even offer services or lending there. And it is true that in sometimes the cases do uncover documents that where the lender is using a lot of charged racial language. But that's not the violation itself. The violation is actually the redlining right.

[Ryan Grim]

The speech proves that they're actually discriminating against.

[Rohit Chopra]

In some ways, the documents can show where there was blatant discrimination.

[Ryan Grim]

Got it. So the CFPB might find out that, you know, black or Hispanic applicants are rejected at a much higher rate and then find the executives using charged language.

[Rohit Chopra]

About a specific applicant or about a specific neighborhood.

[Ryan Grim]

And so add.

[Rohit Chopra]

It's a bunch of facts together.

[Ryan Grim]

I see, I see.

[Rohit Chopra]

But certainly a person's speech cannot trip the in any way trip that law. What trips the law is denying or redlining based on a protected characteristic like religion or race.

[Ryan Grim]

Let's talk for a minute about some of the good stuff that, from your perspective, Trump has done. You're in an interesting position here in the sense that you came in first to the FTC as what I would say is one of the first FTC commissioners of this new era, really trying to wield the Federal Trade Commission's power on behalf of people against monopolies, against scam artists. And since then, you were later obviously joined by Lina Khan and Andrew Ferguson and other. So a bipartisan, not that they agree on everything, but a bipartisan, bipartisan sense that something's wrong here and the populist wings of each party actually have more in common maybe, than the corporate wings of each party. So let's get together and block some of these mergers and enforce some of these actions. The FTC is still going kind of strong in that mode. You then left and go over to the cfpb, which is now just getting absolutely slaughtered. So it's this schizophrenic approach from the Trump administration, where on the one hand, there's good work being done at the ftc. On the other hand, they're dismissing all of these obvious good cases against scam artists and saying that they're going to try to utterly, completely eliminate the thing. So let's pick a couple things. So Trump has talked about capping credit card interest rates. Where do you come down on that? And where should the populist Right. Come down on this? Is this should they understand the attack on the cfpb? Is that the essence of what Trump is doing? Or is their upholding of the FTC's populism? Is that kind of who they are? What the heck is going on here?

[Rohit Chopra]

I think that's the jury is really out. Because on one hand, like I mentioned before, you saw President Trump call out Jamie Dimon. You saw campaigning on capping credit card interest rates. That's totally in conflict with defunding the Wall street police. And that's really what seems to be happening to the cfpb. Again, the jury is out about which way it will turn out, but it seems like right now a lot of the big tech companies are wielding a lot of control over some of these pieces. But then let's see what happens at the ftc. I was part of that original bipartisan. It was a 3 to 2 vote, two Democrats and a Republican versus two Republicans voting out that big antitrust complaint against Facebook. Lina Khan came to the cfp, to the ftc. Really fix the complaint to continue to prosecute it. The trial will occur. Google, others. We'll see. I think there is a lot of mixed messages across the board and I think to answer your question, yes, I think we are seeing a lot more energy from across the ideological spectrum that is questioning abuse of power. Now there's also a strong corporate influence across the board. When I got to the FTC, Ryan, in 2018, I was really shocked to see what I saw. It was hard to understand what planet people were that age. It was basically a dead fish. There was massive abuses, for example, in subprime mortgages where the FTC really took a backseat.

[Ryan Grim]

There was still in 2018.

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, I was saying in the 2008 era, then you have opioids, where there's enormous, enormous abuses by pharmaceutical industry, where the FTC is sort of missing in action. And the thing that really got me was I had discovered that there was a policy, a bipartisan consensus over multiple administrations that Made in USA fraud should not be penalized. So we had cases come in where they were ripping off the made in China label, ripping off the made in Mexico label and putting on a fake made in USA label. And the FTC's response was catch and release. And I thought that that was a. We changed that policy. We changed the policy toward pharmaceutical mergers, which was put on a blindfold rubber stamp. Yes, and let them run wild.

[Ryan Grim]

Obama too, right.

[Rohit Chopra]

Multiple administrations. So I think that that really was something that it needed, a massive reboot. But we'll see. We'll really see right now if it does continue or not. And I think that is what all of us will have to keep a close watch on, on whether the big tech companies and big pharma companies will be the ones that call the shots or not.

[Ryan Grim]

Emily had also floated this thing that's going around on the right. It's this idea that why not just move the CFPB under the ftc? FTC is now doing some good consumer work. Let's just go with that.

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, we Tried that. And it was a disaster. We had for other people. Say, why don't we put it under this office called the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency.

[Ryan Grim]

Jamie Dimon said that. Actually, he says, just do it through the occ.

[Rohit Chopra]

We tried that. It was a massive failure. So what occurred after the financial crisis? We killed one of the agencies that failed. And we also.

[Ryan Grim]

Which one was that?

[Rohit Chopra]

It was called the Office of Thrift Supervision.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, that's right.

[Rohit Chopra]

Who was clearly at the beck and call of big subprime mortgage lenders who were paying the bills at the agency. So it was in some ways a consolidation, a reorg plan. But it was a smart one because what it did is it took. It stripped away the authorities of some. It eliminated an agency and eliminated divisions in certain places. But it created a huge amount of accountability because now you know there's an agency that was responsible. If you just park it somewhere else, it will just be a blame game of, oh, it's someone else's problem. And we saw how much it just did not work. So, look, I'm always open of ways we can make things more effective. One way to make a lot of things more effective is to make sure that our states can also enforce these laws. That's a place where people across the board agree, but I don't think hiding the function in an agency that has other responsibilities, maybe that can work. But also it can really dilute accountability for that leadership. The Federal Reserve Board, they were responsible for regulating a lot of the rules around mortgages. I think everyone saw that the Fed, they were paying attention and prioritizing other things, and that's why it needed to be stripped away.

[Ryan Grim]

And what we're discovering is that it turns out that the market actually does want some rules. So if you can put up a seven here. This is a post by Dave Dayan referencing an article that he had written in the American Prospect. He says, new from me. Russ Vogt, who is the OMB director, was on the verge of breaking the mortgage market by shutting down a core function provided by cfpb. But he blinked and in so doing revealed that regulation is actually pretty important. So what happened here? CFPB effectively eliminated all rules. And it wasn't the consumers that rebelled, it was the mortgage lenders. So what happened here?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, I'm not really sure what is going on over there other than to say that we actually usually had all of these regulated companies wanting us. They were the ones coming to us go after these companies that are clearly breaking the law. How are we supposed to compete if there is egregious law breaking. But there is also other pieces which is in some cases there are laws on the books and the CFPB will publish data or other pieces of information that helps the whole market comply and make sure they're on the right side of the law. And I think what you saw there was just one example where the mortgage lenders want to know the key pieces of data that keep them on the right side of the law. One of the things I was proud of when I was at the agency is instead of forcing a lot of these companies, especially small companies, to hire all sorts of lawyers about novel situations, new types of products, we just published the legal opinion and basically allowed any company to just rely on that. And if they didn't agree with it, sure, they could choose their own way of doing it and maybe they'll take that risk. But we really reduced the need to hire a lot of high priced lawyers. And I think that's actually what government should do. Government shouldn't be serving the interests of the biggest companies. It should be providing information and in many cases, bright line rules whenever it can because that's what's simpler for the new folks who want to challenge the corporate royalty. Hey, y'all, it's your girl, Cheekies. And I'm back with a brand new season of your favorite podcast, Cheekies and Chill. I'll be sharing even more personal stories with you guys and I know a lot of people are gonna attack me. Why are you gonna go visit your dad? Your mom wouldn't be okay with it. I'm gonna tell you, gu know my mother and I know my mom had a very forgiving heart. That is my story on plastic surgery. This is my truth. I think the last time I cried like that was when I lost my mom like that, like, yelling. I was like, no. I was like, oh. And I thought, what did I do wrong? And as always, you'll get my exclusive take on topics like love, personal growth, health, family ties, and more. And don't forget, I'll also be dishing out my best advice to you on episodes of Dear Cheekies. So my fiance and I have been together for 10 years. In the first two years of being together, I find out he is cheating on me, not only with women, but also with men. What should I do? Okay, where do I start? That's not love. He doesn't love you enough. Because if he loved you, he'd be faithful. It's going to be an exciting year and I hope that you can join me, listen to Cheekies and Chill Season four as part of the My Cultura Podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ryan Grim]

When I smoke weed, I get lost in the music. I like to isolate each instrument. The rhythmic bass, the harmonies on the piano. Sticky melody.

[Rohit Chopra]

Hey, careful babe.

[Ryan Grim]

There's someone crossing the street.

[Rohit Chopra]

Sorry, I didn't see him there.

[Ryan Grim]

If you feel different, you drive different.

[Rohit Chopra]

Don't drive high. It's dangerous and illegal everywhere. A message from NHTSA and the Ad Council. Everyone's forgotten who runs this valley. Time to remind them.

[Ryan Grim]

Yellowstone fans, step into the Yellowstone universe.

[Rohit Chopra]

Our family legacy is this ranch and I protect it with my life.

[Ryan Grim]

Hosted by Bobby Bones, the official Yellowstone Podcast takes you deeper into the franchise that's captivated millions worldwide.

[Rohit Chopra]

Action Explore untold behind the scenes stories.

[Ryan Grim]

Exclusive cast interviews and in depth discussions about the themes and legacy of Yellowstone.

[Rohit Chopra]

You know, the first students to settle this valley fighting was all they knew.

[Ryan Grim]

Whether you're a longtime fan or new to the ranch, welcome to the Yellowstone. Bobby Bones has everything you need to stay connected to the Yellowstone phenomenon.

[Rohit Chopra]

I look forward to it.

[Ryan Grim]

Listen to the official Yellowstone podcast Now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rohit Chopra]

Let's go to work.

[Ryan Grim]

So after Trump's election, but I think before his inauguration, correct me if I'm wrong, on the dates you spoke to the Federalist Society about the overlap between a kind of progressive consumer protection philosophy and a conservative consumer protection philosophy. Would you have stayed on in a Trump administration if that had been a possibility? And did you think that it was within the realm of possibility?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, as you remember, a lot of the big tech companies and the banks were saying, he'll be out in minute one. I actually stayed a few more weeks and it was not because they forgot about me. I think I swore an oath to a five year term and I shared that I'll keep serving until replaced and I completely respect that in this agency, the president has the right to choose. Now, I think this is a big open question right now. Is that is this agency going to be a tool of how the most powerful actors keep their power or is it going to continue on some of the things we did to make sure that consumers have the ability to fire companies with bad customer service and take their business elsewhere, that they can capture interest rates on their deposit accounts, lower rates on their loans, and that there is not a crime ridden marketplace, that there is law and order, or is it just all going to be completely lawless.

[Ryan Grim]

Defund the police?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, in some ways that is what is happening. I think defunding and firing the investigators. Right now we're hearing that all of the investigations against big companies for some serious wrongdoing are just being paused and they're being told don't do any work. Who is that helping? I think it is only helping the law breaking companies.

[Ryan Grim]

Also makes it hard for you to write your email of what you did the last week if you're told not to do anything. I wanted to ask you about one of these though. Russ Vogt posted on X just the other day the announcement of basically the pulling back of an enforcement said over the last four years many working class Americans with limited means faced unexpected medical bills, auto repairs and higher grocery bills. This is Russ Vogt who was OMB director and also appointed as the new head of the cfpb. One company set up an innovative solution by creating a platform to allow borrowers and lenders to connect for loans at no interest, with borrowers able to tip the lender and also donate to keep the platform going. Shockingly, the CFPB tried to destroy this company which incurred solo, which incurred millions in legal fees and had to lay off 30% of its workforce. It was wrong and we dismissed the case. More to come but the weaponization of consumer protection must end. Now, if people go to this X post, they can see that there's a community note on it that has survived attempts to try to strip it. But why would the CFPB try to destroy this company which is just trying to for free, connect people with lenders, connect struggling people with willingness to lend?

[Rohit Chopra]

Well, as you mentioned, I believe there was a community note because this is a company that had been repeatedly sanctioned by multiple state regulators and attorneys general, I believe. And in those cases, many of those states come to the CFPB and say you have to solve this issue nationally.

[Ryan Grim]

Like we can't do this right now.

[Rohit Chopra]

It can't just be a game of whack a mole. And I believe that law enforcement action was actually to address a sophisticated what's known as a dark pattern, a digital design device that forces you into something you don't want. And you can take a look at the complaint, they make it seem like, oh, you can just tip. But what if the tip is forced? What if the tip is actually just a disguised way to charge an exploitative interest rate in violation of state law? So I think that a lot of people are gonna look at this potential dismissal of where might there be some foul play because this is something that almost seemed like a bread and butter case to many people.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. Like this is what the CFPB is set up to do. It is company says it's doing one thing, the allegations are is doing something different. Walking away with all the money.

[Rohit Chopra]

Yeah. If you're saying something is a no interest loan, but you're just disguising the interest charge, the triple digit interest charge as a. By another name, I mean that's really what it's kind of, again, it's bread and butter type fraud that the agency is supposed to go after.

[Ryan Grim]

And I know there was some hope among the banks and major corporations that and M and A firms that this would usher in an era, Trump would usher in an era of new mergers. Capital One and Discover are attempting to pull themselves together. You've been critical of that. Do you think this will get stopped? And why should people watching this give a rip if Capital One and Discover merge?

[Rohit Chopra]

Yeah. Well, look, right now we have a situation where we remember inflation. Everyone was saying, well, inflation is going down, inflation is going down. But the truth is for many people's monthly budgets, they felt that they were more and more stressed. And something that inflation often doesn't measure is interest rate costs, the cost that you have to pay on your credit card, your auto loan and your mortgage and more. And we have a situation in credit cards where there is a small almost click of credit card companies that dominate the market. I mean, the top six have a huge market share. And we saw interest rates on credit cards surge way beyond what the Fed raised rates. And people are paying, I think something like $120 billion in interest and fees on their credit cards. If we had a competitive interest rate environment, credit card market, where people were getting a rate that was really tailored to them, this could be something that could save people hundreds of dollars and for some people, thousands of dollars per year. And some of these companies focus on subprime borrowers where the highest rates are. So if you have a couple of players consolidate down, the people who will pay the price are those families. And I think that this is not some academic question. It is really about are you going to be put on a treadmill of debt or are you going to get to benefit from a competitive marketplace? And we'll see what happens. But certainly we know the President. There's people from all across the political spectrum who feel that the credit card companies need to really be reined in. But again, the jury is out.

[Ryan Grim]

I guess my last question for you then. Would Be there's this famous clip of FDR at one of his. I'm sure you know this one of the Democratic conventions where he says something like, the bankers have decided that they hate me, and I welcome their hatred. You seem like the bankers and the big tech companies have decided they hate you. Do you welcome it? Or where do you come down on the. I welcome there.

[Rohit Chopra]

I don't take it personally. I feel like I get it. There are folks that feel that law enforcement and regulators shouldn't be a watchdog, they should be a lap dog. They should be someone who bats their eyelashes to meet with famous CEOs. And the truth is, that's not what we swear our oath to when we take these jobs. It's very clear. Equal justice under the law. That has got to mean something. And it doesn't matter how powerful or connected you are. We're supposed to have laws that afford rights to our people. And it is up to those who sit in those offices to vindicate them. And even if that means you will be subject to threats, harassment, people following you, it stinks. But you just got to do it. Because that's what I think the Constitution and our laws want to see. And we've seen when law enforcement and regulators do the bidding of the powerful or those who break the law, none of us really benefit.

[Ryan Grim]

Last question. Do you see hope in this moment? And if so, where?

[Rohit Chopra]

You know, I think that we are starting to see places where there is a desire to hold powerful people accountable. But we also see situations where the police and law enforcement and regulators are being muzzled and censored and not being able to do their job. So it's a jump ball right now.

[Ryan Grim]

Maybe we can finish with. We can play that clip of FDR at the dnc. But Rohit, thank you so much for coming by the studio. Appreciate it.

[Rohit Chopra]

Thanks so much, Ray. And we know now that government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob. Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred. I should like to have it said of my first administration that in it the causes of selfishness and of lust for power met their match. I should like to have it said. Wait a minute. I should like to have it said.

[Ryan Grim]

Of my second administration that in it.

[Rohit Chopra]

These forces met their master. Calling all Nine Niners. Now streaming. It's the More Better podcast with two episodes of Brooklyn Nine Nine Fun. Hosts Stephanie Beatriz and Melissa Fumero welcome former castmates Chelsea Peretti and Joe Latrulio for one episode each. To laugh and swap stories like Andre.

[Ryan Grim]

Would always be like trying something.

[Rohit Chopra]

They're like, do less, do less, do less all the time. But then some of the biggest things.

[Ryan Grim]

Were the biggest hits, like vindication.

[Rohit Chopra]

Remember? Listen to more Better with Stephanie and Melissa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast Are youe a Charlotte? The incredible Cynthia Nixon joins me this week for a conversation filled with memories and stories. I didn't even know Cynthia could have been Carrie.

[Ryan Grim]

When I first read the script, they asked me to read for Carrie, as I think they asked you to read for Carrie.

[Rohit Chopra]

And then I did and they were.

[Ryan Grim]

Like, yeah, not so much.

[Rohit Chopra]

You can't miss this. Listen to Are youe a Charlotte? On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Are you hungry? Colleen Witt here and Eating While Broke is back for season four every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network. This season we've got a legendary lineup serving up broke dishes and even better stories. On the menu. We have Tony Baker, Nick Cannon, Melissa Ford, October London, and Carrie Harper Howey. Turning Big Macs into Big Moose. Catch Eating While Broke every Thursday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast. Wherever you get your favorite shows, come hungry for season four.