2/4/26: Melinda Gates Blasts Bill Over Epstein, ICE Victims Testify, US Shoots Iranian Drone

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode: 2/4/26: Melinda Gates Blasts Bill Over Epstein, ICE Victims Testify, US Shoots Iranian Drone
Date: February 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Breaking Points dives deep into the ongoing revelations from the Jeffrey Epstein files, including a notable NPR interview with Melinda Gates addressing Bill Gates’ Epstein ties. The hosts also provide coverage and commentary on recent testimonies from victims of ICE violence and the broader ramifications for immigration enforcement and political action. The episode rounds out with analysis of rising tensions in the Middle East—including the US Navy shooting down an Iranian drone—and the strategic gamesmanship underway regarding Iran.

Throughout, Krystal Ball and Ryan Grim (subbing for Saagar) maintain their anti-establishment, candid approach, bringing on Van Lathan to lend perspective on immigration and policy response, and providing insights rooted in investigative reporting.

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Main Segments and Key Discussion Points

1. Epstein Revelations: Melinda Gates’ NPR Interview (09:32–14:20)

Discussion Highlights

• Melinda Gates Interview: NPR asks Melinda Gates about Epstein’s claims of procuring medication for Bill Gates to secretly give her, tied to allegations of infidelity and exposure to sexually transmitted infections.

• Melinda’s response expresses sadness and relief at having left her marriage and the “muck” surrounding Bill’s relationship with Epstein.

  “No girl should ever be put in the situation that they were put in by Epstein and whatever was going on with all of the various people around him… I have moved on from that. I purposely pushed it away…Those questions are for those people and for even my ex-husband. They need to answer to those things, not me.”
  —Melinda Gates interview via NPR (10:35)

  “That's pretty close to confirmation from Melinda Gates there. The divorce itself was related to the Epstein allegations with Bill Gates. And they're not allegations. I mean it's the confirmed relationship...”
  —Krystal Ball (12:57)

• The hosts stress that these aren’t mere allegations of familiarity between Gates and Epstein—there’s a clear, documented relationship, even as Gates denies criminal wrongdoing.

Memorable Quotes

• “He [Epstein] is a creep. So like, she didn't see him… doing whatever the satanic stuff they're doing. But being around him, she was like, ‘he's a creep, you should not be around him.’ And if you keep being around him, like this is not going to work.”
  —Ryan Grim (13:52)

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2. More Epstein Fallout: Noam Chomsky and Elite Connections (14:20–21:34)

Key Points

• Discussion centers on emails revealing Noam Chomsky’s relationship with Epstein, including Chomsky’s strategic PR advice to Epstein regarding sexual abuse allegations.

  “What the vultures dearly want is a public response, which then provides a public opening for an onslaught of venomous attacks, many from just publicity seekers and cranks of all sorts.”
  —Ryan Grim paraphrasing Chomsky’s advice to Epstein (16:16–19:05)

• The hosts grapple with the disappointment of seeing respected intellectuals offer deference to someone with Epstein's background, dissecting the broader implications for the left.

  “It's rather odd to see deference given to a billionaire supporter of the global intelligence state as well…Of all the billionaires who have Noam Chomsky's deference and trust and support, Epstein's an odd choice.”
  —Krystal Ball (19:05–20:15)

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3. New Data Drops: Rothschilds, Thiel, Barak, and Palantir (24:10–31:14)

Key Points

• DropSite Reporting: Unveiling more investigative files exposing Epstein’s networking and influence efforts with global powerbrokers, including the Rothschild banking family, Peter Thiel, Ehud Barak, and Lawrence Summers.

• Email Excerpt: Epstein approaches Thiel as “representing the Rothschilds,” seeking to broker financial/technological partnerships (24:10–25:08).

• Discussion reveals Epstein’s role in connecting Israeli intelligence and cyber operations (especially Ehud Barak) to US tech firms—like Palantir—foreshadowing current geopolitical alliances.

  “Epstein played a central role in the expansion of the surveillance state, global surveillance state that we have today, and that continues to expand.”
  —Ryan Grim (28:59)

  “Epstein was obsessed with the idea that you can use NSA style decryption on human cells. And so he was engaged in this project…asking people to hook him up with Israeli hackers.”
  —Krystal Ball (29:26)

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4. Quick Hits: Epstein Documents, Finkelstein & Dershowitz (31:14–39:35)

Key Points

• Finkelstein’s Response: Norman Finkelstein’s scathing email to Epstein and Alan Dershowitz, castigating Dershowitz’s defense of Epstein and referencing their attempts to suppress critical academic work on Israel.

  “My guess is if Epstein put your daughter at age 15 in such a position, you wouldn't publicly describe him as a, quote, friend and person of, quote, integrity. In fact, I would hope that you'd promptly throttle both Epstein and Dershowitz.”
  —Norman Finkelstein email (31:40)

  • Hosts’ Banter: Woody Allen and Epstein’s mutual disdain for Dershowitz, described as a “completely shameless name dropper.” (33:16–34:13)

• Robert Maxwell Parallels: Epstein’s acknowledgment in emails of Maxwell’s Mossad ties and untimely death, providing “pro tip” for intelligence assets:

  “Just a pro tip for assets out there. Don't do. You're not going to win that one… If you're going to leak stuff, leak it. Blow the whistle.”
  —Ryan Grim (37:36)

Notable Moment

• The hosts emphasize how the new data dumps make it increasingly hard to dismiss the “conspiracy” that Epstein (and before him, Maxwell) were central figures in international intelligence and power-brokering.

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5. ICE Victims Testify: The Wake-up Call (42:15–61:57)

Key Points

• Testimony of Miramar Martinez: Survivor of ICE shooting in Chicago shares the trauma of being shot five times and the callous communications of agents involved.

  “Literally bragging about how many times he shot me. I got sick to my stomach seeing how a federal law enforcement officer will talk this way about shooting me—a woman who he swore into…”
  —Miramar Martinez (42:38)

• Congressional Hearing: Audio and analysis of a powerful testimony by the family of Renee Goode, whose killing by ICE/CBP catalyzed public outrage.

  “The deep distress our family feels because of Nay’s losses in such a violent and unnecessary way is complicated by feelings of disbelief, distress, and desperation for change.”
  —Goode’s brother testifying (46:29)

• Van Lathan Joins: Describes public rage and increased awareness:

  “What I’m seeing from my audience is rage…Renee Goode and Alex Pretty was a wake up call to those people. And I do not think there is a way to put the genie back in the bottle.”
  —Van Lathan (45:02)

• Abolish ICE Movement:

  • Krystal discusses how "Abolish ICE" has become the left's equivalent to the Tea Party's rallying cry around Obamacare.

  • Van notes the disconnect between Democratic leadership and base sentiment:

    “They are still in the phase of this where they are attempting to launder the reputation of ICE to convince me and other people like me the usefulness of ICE…It really is. I'm not even baffled. I'm fascinated.”
    —Van Lathan (53:14)

  • Ryan draws a parallel to the Republican MAGA movement: action and vision matter more than mere rhetoric (57:46).

  “Abolish ICE would be one of those things to say, look, ICE is irredeemable. We're getting rid of it. We're still doing immigration enforcement. But this rogue agency that’s killing people in the streets…they gotta go.”
  —Ryan Grim (57:46)

• Vision vs. Harm Reduction:

  • Van emphasizes that the left’s lack of a visionary framework (unlike MAGA, which—however grotesque—offers vision and action) leads only to performative anger from politicians.

  • Defund the Police and Abolish ICE are cited as the types of bold visions needed for meaningful change:

    “Defund the police…That’s a vision statement…It’s something that says, ‘hey, let’s reimagine that…’ The question is, what’s your version of that?”
    —Van Lathan (58:41)

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6. Middle East Escalation: US Shoots Iranian Drone (65:05–75:32)

Key Points

• US Navy Shoots Down Iranian Drone: The Abraham Lincoln aircraft carrier shot down an approaching Iranian drone in the Arabian Sea.

  • Ryan points out the escalation risk, noting the massive cost disparity between $20,000 drones and the multi-million dollar US response.

    “The asymmetry here is wild… This is a fundamental material problem for the US going forward that it's up against this new cheap drone warfare…”
    —Ryan Grim (66:04)

• ‘Peace through Strength’ Debate: Krystal suggests Trump’s approach (massive military presence, but not crossing into major war) may be forestalling greater bloodshed; Ryan retorts Trump shouldn't get credit for not starting wars he didn't need to start (68:02).

  “At this point I would take that because my expectations of Trump are so low. But I'm really tired of him taking credit for not doing bigger wars that he didn't have to do at all…”
  —Ryan Grim (68:02)

• Ongoing US-Iran Negotiations: Talks move to Oman, with skepticism about the US's true intentions—Ryan suggests Trump is only buying time to restock assets before another possible attack (69:00–74:52).

  • Cites previous patterns, including Qasem Soleimani's assassination during peace negotiations.
  • Warns the killing of moderate negotiators is pushing Iranian leadership to favor a hardline, escalatory response.

Notable Quotes

• “There's only so many red weddings until people show up at the wedding in–like... That's why I suspect the Iranians are assuming that an attack is coming.”
  —Ryan Grim (71:51)

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• Melinda Gates on Epstein/Gates Divorce: (10:35)

  “No girl should ever be put in the situation that they were put in by Epstein and whatever was going on with all of the various people around him. …Those questions are for those people and for even my ex-husband. They need to answer to those things, not me.” —Melinda Gates

• Ryan Grim on Chomsky’s PR Advice: (16:16)

  “What the vultures dearly want is a public response, which then provides a public opening for an onslaught of venomous attacks…”

• Norman Finkelstein on Epstein/Dershowitz: (31:40)

  “My guess is if Epstein put your daughter at age 15 in such a position, you wouldn't publicly describe him as a, quote, friend and person of, quote, integrity…”

• Van Lathan on ICE Outrage: (45:02)

  “I'm seeing rage and I'm seeing a sort of wake up call. …I think that Renee Goode and Alex Pretty was a wake up call to those people. And I do not think there is a way to put the genie back in the bottle.”

• Krystal Ball on “Abolish ICE” as a Rallying Cry: (48:22)

  “It feels to me like the Abolish ICE movement has become a really critical part of, like Obamacare for the Tea Party movement. Was that rallying policy question…”

• Ryan Grim on Political Vision: (57:46)

  “Abolish ICE would be one of those things to say, look, ICE is irredeemable. We're getting rid of it… But this rogue agency that’s killing people in the streets…they gotta go…”

• Van Lathan on Democrats’ Failure: (53:14)

  “They are still in the phase of this where they are attempting to launder the reputation of ICE to convince me and other people like me the usefulness of ICE… It really is. I'm not even baffled. I'm fascinated.”

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Conclusion

This episode exemplifies Breaking Points’ mission: tearing through the fog of elite disinformation, confronting the realities of institutional corruption, and amplifying voices often neglected by mainstream media. The hosts provide a lucid, sometimes biting analysis of the power structures connecting politics, finance, intelligence, and law enforcement, while featuring firsthand stories and policy debate—particularly on the abuses of ICE and the consequences for progressive politics. The show also captures the perilous moment in US-Iranian relations, warning listeners how quickly geopolitical tensions can flare.

Listeners are left with revelatory perspective on the Epstein saga, the struggle for justice among ICE’s victims, and the immense challenges facing those pushing for structural change in American politics and foreign policy.

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Key Segments and Timestamps

• Epstein Files & Melinda Gates Interview: 09:32 – 14:20
• Chomsky & Elite Connections: 14:20 – 21:34
• Rothschilds, Thiel, Barak, and Palantir: 24:10 – 31:14
• ICE Victims Testify & Van Lathan Interview: 42:15 – 61:57
• US Shoots Down Iranian Drone & Iran Analysis: 65:05 – 74:52

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Transcript

[Podcast Host (Guaranteed Human)]

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[Krystal Ball]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of the show.

[Ryan Grim]

This is place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the.

[Krystal Ball]

Right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com Become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited ad free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see [e-mail].

[Ryan Grim]

Good morning and welcome to Breaking Points. How was last week?

[Krystal Ball]

Last week it was so sad without urine, but we all managed to get through. I think more people are curious how your last week was.

[Ryan Grim]

Good time. Good time was had. Apparently some Epstein news dropped while I was gone.

[Jacob Goldstein (Odoo Advertiser)]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Ryan was in Cancun at fish shows as the Epstein files were being released. I felt bad texting you.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, I was loving it. I was loving it. It added to it. It did, yeah. I mean. Cause this is.

[Krystal Ball]

It's not a tropical vacation without.

[Ryan Grim]

For people who are genuinely curious about how the world works and who the people are who run this world. This is like, this is the moment that the window is actually open.

[Krystal Ball]

It's so unbelievable. And that's.

[Ryan Grim]

And Mac was just telling us that we've had hundreds of new premium subscribers over the last couple of days. And I think that's because we've been covering this honestly from the beginning, and it's such a disorienting mess of a story because there's so much active disinformation that gets pumped out into it.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Ryan Grim]

And you want to know what's true, what's not, what matters, what doesn't. And like, we're trying to actually be honest about it and we don't care who it offends.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. Not trying to smooth the edges of the story out or anything like that. So you can get a premium subscription at Breaking Points. Appreciate it. If you do, you can go sign up there. Otherwise, just follow us. You know, subscribe on YouTube to get us in your feed and wherever you get your podcasts. It's very helpful. But this has been, to your point, a watershed.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, it's been like we got the drip, drip coming out for a couple of years now, but nothing like the geyser of the last several days.

[Ryan Grim]

And while we're on the subject of gratitude for viewers who are making this possible, I was thinking, you know, this is Mexico watching fish. It's a good time for contemplation. And I was thinking about how last year we didn't go to the show because my wife had just gotten out of the hospital with complications from chemo which damn near killed her. And to think that now like a year later we're back on the beach and like celebrating it and like throughout that whole thing, you guys were so cool about like missing shows, being late. Like, that was, that was really, that was really moving. So I just, you know, really appreciate that. And also my mother in law to like watch the kids the whole time. Big thank you to Virginia.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, that.

[Ryan Grim]

So, so, and, and now I'm recharged, ready to go get these Epstein goons.

[Krystal Ball]

So in a way, it was great timing.

[Ryan Grim]

Perfect.

[Krystal Ball]

You were recharging your battery. Just as the world needed our super soldier Ryan Grim most. Yeah, well, as I said, we have a lot to get through today. We're gonna start actually with Epstein because the drip drip is continuing. But also what's important is putting the pieces of the puzzle together. And there are a few people better equipped to do that than Ryan Grimm. So we're going to start with.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm loving your reporting on this.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, I've been addicted.

[Ryan Grim]

You've been going through it like a pro.

[Krystal Ball]

It's addicting. I mean, the Epstein library is addicting on the DOJ's website, which is a weird thing. Not many people get addicted to the DOJ's website.

[Ryan Grim]

But you can also now go through JMail. We have all of the L latest volume 11 up on JMail World, which is a project with Dropside.

[Krystal Ball]

So I find that even more addicting because it's like being in the Sims, right.

[Ryan Grim]

And you can, and you can then like see the ones that came right before it and you can put it in time. And yes, there are articles it links to links to the articles.

[Krystal Ball]

It's like, yeah, it's a technological feat. It's very, very cool. Yeah. So folks should also go there.

[Ryan Grim]

If we put in for a Pulitzer, like they wanted to do it. I was like, you understand that the Pulitzer is housed in Columbia, right? Like, we're not getting a Pulitzer. We deserve one.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, you do.

[Ryan Grim]

Like if it was a fair fight, we would get one.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

It's the most innovative journalistic project I think ever on a massive data set. And it's the biggest story in the world, so it deserves it. I was like, I'm not sure if you followed the news around Columbia University lately.

[Krystal Ball]

It's not happening.

[Ryan Grim]

Don't think they're doing a Epstein Pulitzer.

[Krystal Ball]

No, not to Dropsight. No, Definitely not to Drop sight.

[Ryan Grim]

It's free to apply. I was like, look, doesn't hurt to apply.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, no, that's true. A lot of new details to go through. So we'll start with Epstein. We're then going to have Van Lathan join us once again because Renee Goode's family testified in a hearing yesterday. We have clips from that. We're going to talk about it with Van and just Democrats on the ending the government. So the government shutdown technically ended yesterday. The quote unquote, partial government shutdown technically ended yesterday. You probably didn't notice.

[Ryan Grim]

I didn't.

[Krystal Ball]

Nobody noticed. Even in D.C. nobody noticed.

[Ryan Grim]

Cruise right through customs.

[Krystal Ball]

Yep. Oh, good point.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

So we will be talking to Van about Dem's decision when it came to reopening the government. How many joined with Republicans, that sort of thing. And the United States shot down an Iranian drone yesterday. So we are going to bring you the latest on that story as well. Elon Musk's ex offices are being raided in Paris. Musk is now in a war of words with Spain. And this is related to teen social media bans. But the raid is also related to some of those horrible images that were being created on X not long ago.

[Ryan Grim]

You probably remember when Grok went completely. Yeah, yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Yep.

[Ryan Grim]

Grok did his thing.

[Krystal Ball]

We have a wild clip of Chuck Schumer about Israel and Gaza. We'll break down the latest new drop site reporting to talk about there. And then the blow. The blowback guys are here to talk about Cuba.

[Ryan Grim]

They were just in Cuba.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Trump just put out an executive order declaring Cuba to be like the worst of the worst of the worst.

[Krystal Ball]

Did that happen while they were there?

[Ryan Grim]

That did. And he's pressuring Mexico not to sell oil to Cuba because somehow it is the business of the United States who Mexico sells oil to and who Cuba buys it from. They're trying to completely send Cuba back to the 17th century. So we're going to talk to Brennan and. No. About what conditions are like there and what the. What the politics are now and then. And negotiations between the US And Iran, which most people suspect the US Is just buying time so they can get all their assets in place and then launch an attack. But they have moved to Oman at the request of Iran. They've moved from Turkey to Oman. We might even get Kushner involved in them. So we'll talk about them.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Lots to go through. All right, let's start then with Jeffrey Epstein. Melinda Gates was on NPR and asked the most uncomfortable question anyone could ever ask an ex Wife, you may remember.

[Ryan Grim]

And one that an ex wife is probably not that unhappy to answer.

[Krystal Ball]

It's a little bit better than being Bill Gates current wife, as she basically says in the clip. She's asked about the detail crystalline saga covered where in the files. This was in an Epstein draft to himself. Those drafts are a very bizarre.

[Ryan Grim]

Too hot to send.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, too hot for send. But it was. The drafts are a very strange window into Jeffrey Epstein's mind. And in a draft you may remember, he mentioned Bill Gates, a Russian prostitute and procuring for Bill Gates the type of medication he would need to slip into Melinda's diet some way or another to prevent her from getting an std.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

So Melinda Gates was asked about this. Let's roll the clip.

[Podcast Host (Guaranteed Human)]

I think we're having a reckoning as a society, right? No girl, no girl should ever be put in the situation that they were put in by Epstein and whatever was going on with all of the various people around him. No girl. I mean, it's just. It's beyond heartbreaking, right. I remember being those ages, those girls were. I remember my daughters being those ages, right. So for me, it's personally hard whenever those details come up, right. Because brings back memories of some very, very painful times in my marriage. But I have moved on from that. I purposely pushed it away and I moved on. I'm in a really unexpected, beautiful place in my life. So whatever questions remain there of what I don't. Can't even begin to know all of it. Those questions are for those people and for even my ex husband. They need to answer to those things, not me. And I am so happy to be away from all the muck. The emails in the files suggest that.

[Krystal Ball]

Bill Gates had additional affairs and that.

[Podcast Host (Guaranteed Human)]

He tried to get medication to treat a sexually transmitted infection and that he.

[Krystal Ball]

Was going to give you the medicine without you knowing.

[Podcast Host (Guaranteed Human)]

His representative has said all of this is false. It is not on you to have to respond to the details of that alleged behavior. But I wonder what your dominant emotion is when you read these news articles with these details. Sad. Just unbelievable sadness. Unbelievable sadness, right. And again, I'm able to take my own sadness and look at those young girls and say, my God, how did they. How did that happen to those girls? Right? And so for me, it's just sadness. Sadness for. You know, I. I've left.

[Krystal Ball]

I had to.

[Podcast Host (Guaranteed Human)]

I left my marriage. I had to leave my marriage. I wanted to leave my marriage. I had to leave the. I felt I needed to eventually leave the foundation. So it's Just sad and ren.

[Krystal Ball]

That's pretty close to confirmation from Melinda Gates there. The divorce itself was related to the Epstein allegations with Bill Gates. And they're not allegations. I mean it's the confirmed relationship between Bill Gates and Jeffrey Epstein. Obviously there are all kinds of different allegations that circulate around that, but it's not an allegation that they had a significant relationship. I'm not insignificant relationship. And in that clip, the way the question was asked by npr, what is your dominant emotion when you hear that? As opposed to did your ex husband secretly drug you to out of love?

[Ryan Grim]

Although she wouldn't know, I guess.

[Krystal Ball]

No, she wouldn't. But what is your dominant emotion when you hear that clip?

[Ryan Grim]

Maybe sad too. Anger. Like what a. What a scumbag.

[Krystal Ball]

I know.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. And you know, she has said that she told him.

[Krystal Ball]

He denies it. By the way.

[Ryan Grim]

This guy is a creep. So like she didn't see him, you know, doing whatever the satanic stuff they're doing. But being around him, she was like, he's a creep. You should not be around him. And if you keep being around him, like this is not going to work. And it's indicative of your character as well. She was dead on. From other people who have met him, I've gotten people have said the same thing that like your creep dar like just went up immediately.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

And that goes sadly to the next guy we got to talk about. We can put up C3 here. One of the. For a certain subset of like Gen X particular left wing people. This one has been just a body.

[Krystal Ball]

Blow for the Woodstock 99 crowd.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, put up, if you put up a three and before that, you know, everybody older is in that too. Yeah, put up a three. So this is an email and people have tried to do some cope around it saying, well, it's not from Noam Chomsky's email, so it's maybe it's not him. And basically what he. The one that's circulating comes from one that GNOME did send directly to Jeffrey Epstein. And Epstein took out some personal stuff in it and then sent it to another friend saying, this is the advice that I got from gnome. Now the personal stuff I think actually plays into this and maybe we can have Glenn on and we can talk about this but we can move on from that for now. But basically what he tell Epstein says, I'm getting all of this terrible press for all of these women accusing me of abusing them. What should I do? And this is 2019. This is 2019. This is deep into MeToo. And it's. I believe this is long after the Miami Herald has done the investigation into the way that what he did in Florida was way worse than he ended up getting charged with, because what he did was extremely clever for his own rehabilitation. There were dozens of, as we've reported, dozens of victims that they could have chosen to charge him with.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Ryan Grim]

Some as low as, like, 14. Yeah, they, he, he got them to make the one charge somebody who was 17, which was very smart on his part, because what did he immediately start doing? It was a prostitution situation. She told me she was 18. Turns out she was 17 and a half. And so many people in the elite world were willing to be like, you know what? Hey, and age and consent is 16 in some states. And so. And also he hangs out with the Secretary of State and former presidents, and he's on the board of this and that, and he's a billionaire. Sure, it's fine. But by 2019, so even if you allow for that, that cleverness that he was able to pull off with Acosta and the bush administration, by 2019, people knew the contours of that deal and the context of it. And so what Noam Chomsky basically tells him is do not respond at all. Like, if you respond at all, it's just going to give the vultures, he says, what the vultures dearly want is a public response, which then provides a public opening for an onslaught of venomous attacks, many from just publicity seekers and cranks of all sorts. And it goes on and on. And so to see, because, you know, some of us had our cope, was Chomsky responds to everybody. He has. He emails everybody like, he, he'll speak wherever. He'll take any interview request. He has this voracious curiosity about humanity. Epstein was funding mit, Obviously, Chomsky wants to do what he can to, like, get funding for mit so you could, like, you can get there and be like, look. But to see the level of emotion that he had in his relationship with Epstein, it's different knowing that so many other people who met him are like, this guy's a creep. It's devastating. It doesn't mean that he participated in any of the, Any, any of the sordid stuff, which, and I've been consistent on that, like, people want to cancel every single person who's on an email with Epstein, but I don't think that's fair. He emailed thousands of people. The people that need to be face accountability and shame are the ones that participated, knew about, and didn't say Anything or knew about and participated in what he was doing. We know at least Chomsky had a very close relationship with him and we know that he was a creep and that it was easy to tell that. And we know that he's telling him, he's guiding him how to overcome this like wall of allegations.

[Krystal Ball]

It's rather odd to see deference given to a billionaire supporter of the global intelligence state as well. Right. So like it's one thing if Epstein had been a sort of left aligned billionaire, I mean, and I don't mean Democrat, like obviously he was a Dem donor and he was close with the.

[Ryan Grim]

Labor wing of Israel. Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, we can put a 2 up on the screen. Yeah, labor wing of Israel. But a 2 is the news yesterday from the House side. The Clintons have broken an agreement to be questioned on camera to avoid those contempt of Congress charges that it looked like they were barreling head on into just a couple of weeks ago when they sent that letter and said, no, this is all, we're not doing it. They're not going to pull Steve Bannon and go to prison for defying the subpoena. They're now going to be on camera. But that's a reminder that again, it's why of all of all the billionaires who have Noam Chomsky's deference and trust and support, Epstein's an odd choice.

[Ryan Grim]

Like the worst one.

[Krystal Ball]

It's an odd choice.

[Ryan Grim]

Like who else you got? It's going to be worse than that.

[Krystal Ball]

That's a weird one.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. And it gives, don't want to derail the entire show. Chomsky was an anarchist and in the time that I was coming up, actual socialism had been somewhat significantly discredited on the left because of the collapse of the Soviet Union and a lot of like American, the American idea in the like late 80s 90s about communism was not that it was this bulwark against American imperialism and like a, and, and a, like vehicle for the rise of the working class. It was like this is a sclerotic authoritarian thing. And that gave purchase to anarchism to really take hold in like the 90s and early 2000s as an alternative that radicals could glom onto. And you always had the socialists and communists saying that's fake. That's just, that's just glossed over liberalism and it allows them to say I told you so. Because the answer to how could he align himself with somebody like this would be so interesting. Well, it's actually, it really was just glossed over liberalism.

[Krystal Ball]

That's so interesting.

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[Public Investing Advertiser]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now general assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is An interactive analysis tool output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures A4 let's.

[Krystal Ball]

Put A4 up on the screen. This is an Epstein email to Peter Thiel where Ryan this gets into a lot of the drop site reporting here. Epstein 2-28-2016 as you probably know, this is to Peter Thiel. I represent the Rothschilds. I was hoping to figure out a way for the bank that has 160B and management can do something in tech. Best client lists in the world. Prehistoric products. It can wait. Good luck in China. This is like a poem. Like a sick home. I'll be in Europe again 28 to 2028 then island. So if you want to come around the world going west dot come to the island dot or if you would like to meet in Saudi at the end of the month, question mark and then Teal says certainly not in Saudi. Just think I will avoid the Middle east for the next decade or so. She'll be back on east coast in late April, May sometime in NYC or on island then dot dot dot. Lovely. They have us hanging here in suspense, but Ryan Dropsight has done a deep investigation into the Epstein Rothschild's connection.

[Ryan Grim]

Right? Yeah. So people can go read that. That's Arianda Rothschild, who herself is a fascinating character because she's not a Rothschild. She Central America, married into the family and then became the first kind of married in person to run the bank. And she, she developed a very close relationship with Epstein which she denied but which our original emails showed not true at all. This, this further tightens it and shows that he was using his linkage with her and the bank to try to appeal to thiel here. That's 2015. One thing I was proud of from this weekend as I had a nice scoop before we hit the tarmac which was we found this three and a half hour conversation between Epstein, Ehud Barak and Lawrence Summers that was huge. And pulled a piece out of it where he is telling Ehud Barak, who's still Minister of Defense. So this was February of 2013. He didn't leave the ministry until March of 2013. But so he's plotting like what his next move is going to be and Epstein is like you should be on the board of this company called Palantir. He spells it for him incorrectly. Spells it incorrectly.

[Krystal Ball]

It's like traitors where they write the names. That's all I could think of.

[Ryan Grim]

And then Barak spells it back to make sure he's got it right and gets it right.

[Krystal Ball]

I know. And Epstein's like, yes, yes.

[Ryan Grim]

Even though it'd been way off when Epstein had spelled it. And then they ask him to spell teal. He gets that wrong at one point. Andreessen Horowitz gets that wrong meanwhile. But he's. Meanwhile Summers is there and he tells. He's like, who's Andreessen Horowitz? He's like, oh, Larry's an advisor to them. He gets a million dollars a year from them just to give them advice. Larry can't even be like, you spelled it wrong. So after that, Epstein invests heavily in Peter Thiel's companies. 2024. Palantir and Israel strike up a strategic agreement. Trump basically has a strategic agreement with Palantir now. So this is interesting to see the kernels of this relationship starting to bloom.

[Krystal Ball]

From all of the reporting you've done on Ehud Barak. What then, big picture geopolitical significance. Would you. Or how would you describe the relationship in that context? What does it mean that they were forming that bond at that time?

[Ryan Grim]

Ehu Barak played a. Well, he goes back to Iran Contra, as you're learning in this book that Emily and I are both reading now, Prophets of War by Ari Ben Monash. Barak comes up there in a bunch. So he goes back to early, which Epstein was also involved in. But after he leaves office in 2013, he tries to come back in 2018. 19. Epstein dying. I think derail's helped to derail his comeback into politics. He played a central role in the creation or the advent and the expansion of Israel's cyber weapons and cybersecurity industry. Barak is on all of these keyboards.

[Krystal Ball]

It's like his thing.

[Ryan Grim]

It became his thing. And it was Epstein who guided him toward this thing. And telling him, like, these people like Thiel and these other. This is the future, and you need to be a major part of it. And you can open the doors. You can then be the one that can sell. You know, you can build relationships with African countries, with Asian countries, with. Around the world to help these Israeli companies get in. And because he. Because Barak had been at the center of Israeli intelligence for so long, he, like, had those relationships. So Epstein played a central role in the expansion of the surveillance state, global surveillance state that we have today, and that continues to expand.

[Krystal Ball]

So this is one of the things that I've been going through the last, like, 48 hours is mentions in the files of the NSA. And this is really interesting, actually, in the bigger context that you just mentioned, Epstein was obsessed with the idea that you can use NSA style decryption on human cells. And so he was engaged in this project, and maybe we can talk about this next week or something, but where he's trying, he's asking people to hook him up with Israeli hackers. I'm looking at one email right now to this guy who was at the Gates foundation at the time, Boris Nikolic, who says, jeffrey Epstein says, let's think up NSA types for Washington meeting, all these mentions. Where do you have contacts at nsa? Can you find me the best code breaker, NSA type? I mean, it's just like over and over again. And that's really interesting that he was helping Ehud Barak build the Israeli surveillance state and then looking to mine code breakers at the American surveillance state for his science. Like, he had these. What's the right word? Like, these almost like millenarian ideas about technology, like he can bring about.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. And unusually, he brought it about. I've seen a lot of people who've watched his, like, interview with either listen to that conversation or they watch his interview with Bannon and they're like, oh, this guy's just a stoner who's just like, highfalutin and ideas, but he's actually a dummy. And I would just strongly encourage people to give that analysis a second thought. This guy, this is not a dummy. This is a guy who can explain and understand extraordinarily. He can take extraordinarily complex systems, whether it's global finance, global politics, science and medicine, surveillance, Global surveillance. He can understand them intuitively, and then he can explain them in a way that allows you to understand them. That is an extremely rare quality in somebody. That is not a dummy. That is not somebody just sitting around pontificating and mansplaining. Don't underestimate this guy, is what I would say.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, one person who was not charmed by Jeffrey Epstein is Norm Finkelstein. Let's put this one up a five. Oh, my gosh, Ryan, this is a great email.

[Ryan Grim]

This is fun. So, yeah, so the context here, you've got some reporters who are kind of reaching out for comment, right?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

About Dershowitz and Epstein. Norm Finkelstein, 2015, responds. My guess is if Epstein put your daughter at age 15 in such a position, you wouldn't publicly describe him as a, quote, friend and person of, quote, integrity. In fact, I would hope that you'd promptly throttle both Epstein and. And Dershowitz.

[Krystal Ball]

I've seen his cc'd on this email, by the way.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, he ccs. Yes, probably Dershowitz.

[Krystal Ball]

I was just gonna say. Yeah, I bet Dershowitz is one of the redacted names.

[Ryan Grim]

And we had Dershowitz on the program a couple years ago before.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, rising. We had him on.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. And I'm Rising. And I remember before Finkelstein was the celebrity he rightfully is today. I asked him about his. The context for this is Dershowitz basically destroyed Finkelstein's academic career because he didn't like a review that Finkelstein wrote of Dershowitz book.

[Krystal Ball]

This is another piece of drop site reporting.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, that was about the Israel Lobby. Mersheimer.

[Krystal Ball]

That was Mearsheimer.

[Ryan Grim]

That's right.

[Podcast Host (Guaranteed Human)]

Okay.

[Ryan Grim]

That Epstein and Dershowitz both collaborated to try to undermine the book. The Israel Lobby with Mearsheimer and Walt.

[Krystal Ball]

They probably did the same thing with Finkelstein too.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, absolutely.

[Krystal Ball]

Collaborating behind the scenes.

[Ryan Grim]

The. Was Epstein, like, involved with going after Finkelstein? Like they could, like, probably, yes. Oh, the other fun thing, we don't have him here. Epstein and Woody Allen hated Alan Dershowitz so much. That. Which is the funniest.

[Krystal Ball]

The girls were gossiping behind his back.

[Ryan Grim]

It's the funniest ending to this that Alan Dershowitz has dragged his own meager reputation through the mud to defend Woody Allen and Jeffrey Epstein to the bitter end. And now to find out they despised the guy. They thought he was full of himself, but worse, they call him a completely shameless name dropper. Like, they just go in on him, especially Woody Allen.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, Woody Allen just might have.

[Ryan Grim]

Been his wife, because sometimes his wife is writing from Woody Allen.

[Krystal Ball]

He's writing for him.

[Ryan Grim]

Either way.

[Krystal Ball]

Sometimes she's just either emailing as well. It's just a lot of Soon Yi and Woody in these emails. But the.

[Ryan Grim]

And Epstein says to Woody Allen, no, no, he's even worse than you think. And Woody Allen's like, that's not possible.

[Krystal Ball]

He's like, I'm Woody Allen.

[Ryan Grim]

There is no bottom to what I think of Alan Dershowitz.

[Krystal Ball]

Yep.

[Ryan Grim]

Those are his best friends.

[Krystal Ball]

What a team. What a team. Just going around the world. All right, there's also an email we should talk about here where Jeffrey Epstein, March of 2018, subject line, writes to a redacted recipient, quote, he was passed away. That's the subject line. And it's a. Actually, it's a. The quote of an article that I think was published in the Mirror in 2002. And Epstein put in Robert Maxwell and then went to the quote, which is, quote, threatened Mossad. He told them that unless they gave him £400 million to save his crumbling empire. He would expose all he had done for them. In that time, he had free access to Margaret Thatcher's Downing Street, Ronald Reagan's White House House to the Kremlin and to the corridors of power throughout Europe. Maxwell passed away, passed on all the secrets he learned to Mossad and Tel Aviv. In turn, they tolerated his excesses, vanities and insatiable appetite for a luxurious lifestyle. And women. He told his controllers who they should target and how they should do it. He anointed, he appointed himself as Israel's unofficial ambassador to the Soviet bloc. And then Ryan, this is, it's a quote, it's quite interesting that he's seen. Yes. And then he says he was passed away.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Passive voice.

[Ryan Grim]

And his BFF is Maxwell's daughter. Right before Jeffrey Epstein, there was Robert Maxwell. Like the biggest, the most similar scandal to Epstein today is actually Maxwell when he was killed. As this is the allegation from Epstein Maxwell. And it was similar also in the sense that there were so many obvious clues that he was an Israeli intelligence asset, including his burial in Israel at the most prestigious place, including Ari Benmanash saying out loud, he was an asset. And I worked directly with him, including all of this evidence. And you'd have the press calling it a giant conspiracy theory. So it was similar in that sense. And the public, eventually, I think that followed it was like, no, yeah, don't believe the press on this one. The conspiracy theory is true. And now it's a pretty. Now it's barely even a controversial thing to say that Maxwell was an Israeli asset. He just was. And he also was like Epstein, a bit of a con artist and a flim flam and frittered away hundreds of millions of dollars. According to Ben Monash, the thing that actually broke his empire was there was this intramural dispute with the Israeli weapons traffickers involved in Iran Contra. And so they moved their money from banks that were guaranteeing Maxwell with the Iran Contra money to the East Bloc so the money would be safe from the CIA, which they were now starting to fight with. And so once that money got pulled, now Maxwell all of a sudden couldn't meet his monthly obligations. Maxwell then threatened that he would blow the whistle on all the things that he was doing for them. And just a pro tip for assets out there. Don't do. You're not going to win that one.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Don't do that.

[Ryan Grim]

Like, don't warn them. If you do it, just do it. Don't tell them, do x Or I'm going to expose all of your secrets. Don't do that. You're not going to make it to that point. If you're going to leak stuff, leak it. Blow the whistle.

[Krystal Ball]

You might end up falling off the back of your yacht.

[Ryan Grim]

Don't walk into the room with a whistle and be like, I'm going to blow this if you don't give me. Yeah, exactly. You might wind up falling out of a window or off the back of your yacht or one guy, they said he got, he had played tennis and like two days later they said he died of an aggressive form of cancer that he picked up like the day before. Yeah, like, oh, that's interesting how that happens.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, it's one of those things, one of those crazy things in life.

[Ryan Grim]

So, yeah, pro tip, don't do it like this.

[Krystal Ball]

And this is, I mean, the gist of what it's like going through these emails and it's probably everyone's having this experience on social media right now. You're seeing little like tidbits in these single emails that like this seem to confirm Epstein buys the conspiracy story. It's not really a conspiracy anymore, but what has been treated as a conspiracy in the past about Robert Maxwell being quote, passed away and it's just in the subject line of an email. So there are, it's wrong to call them gems but like gems in the context of getting to the bottom of what's actually going on. They're everywhere. And that's what makes it so addicting to be buried in the Epstein library is you never know which silly email riddled with typos is going to be so significant. And one throwaway email he sent what, 2018 has huge consequences and it's, I.

[Ryan Grim]

Love it in the sense that it's teaching people history and very recent history that is still quite relevant to us. We're going way long. We should probably move on.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. So Van Lathen's joining us next to talk about.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh no, we have a part two ice hearings.

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[Public Investing Advertiser]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIP Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures.

[Ryan Grim]

Congress probed the behavior of ICE in hearings yesterday. Miramar Martinez was there who was shot five times by ICE agents in Chicago but survived One of the more high profile survivors of ICE violence. We're gonna be joined in a moment by friend of the show Van Lathan to discuss the hearings. Let's start first with Martinez up on Capitol hill.

[Krystal Ball]

This is B1 as my attorney showed the court the disgusting text messages Exum sent to his fellow border patrol buddies. Literally bragging about how many times he shot me. I got sick to my stomach seeing how a federal law enforcement officer will talk this way about shooting me. A woman who he swore into was both eye opening and heartbreaking.

[Interviewer at ICE Hearing]

Is it true that in the body cam footage, the CBP officer told you to, and I'm so sorry for saying this, the officer told you to, quote, do something, bitch, before he fired?

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Interviewer at ICE Hearing]

It's disgusting, shameful, and it gets worse. Ms. Martinez, these are images of texts sent by the agent who shot you, and they're actually disturbing to read, but I think it's important for the public to see this. The agent linked an article about your shooting and texted. Read it. Five shots, seven holes. I fired five rounds and she had seven holes. Put that in your book, boys. Oh, well, it is what it is. Shit happens. This is someone that works for the United States government. I fired five rounds and she had seven holes. Now, he was talking about you. And it's our understanding that he was actually bragging about his aim, shooting an unarmed American citizen. Is that right?

[Van Lathan]

Correct.

[Ryan Grim]

And so we're hearing from Miramar Martinez because she survived that attack. We didn't hear from Renee Nicole Goode, though. We heard from some family members. Didn't hear, obviously, from Alex Preddy, who's no longer here to testify. But Van, I'm curious, when it comes to your audience, is this level of brutality kind of breaking through? And how have you seen the conversation around immigration enforcement change? And also, welcome to the program.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, thank you very much. Glad to have you back. I hope you had a good time down there. I see no tan. There was work to be done. I can tell.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm feeling good and rap.

[Van Lathan]

Now. What I'm seeing from my audience is rage. I'm seeing rage and I'm seeing a sort of wake up call. Now, Ms. Martinez, you guys just featured her. That was a story that I saw you guys cover, that I saw Majority Report cover. That's all a lot of places in independent news media cover. But I did not see too much coverage of what happened to her anywhere else. I say that to say that I think that there were overreaches, brutality, and violations of the Constitution by ICE prior to Renee Goode that the general public wasn't aware of. I don't think they understood. I think they. People got the sense in cities, particularly with large ICE deployments, of how, you know, ICE was, you know, roaming their communities. And papers, please sort of culture scaring people that they share their communities with. And there were headlines being made. Don't, don't, don't get me wrong. But as far as ICE agents taking out their guns, shooting people and putting their lives in danger, American citizens and undocumented people, I think that Renee Goode and Alex Pretty was a wake up call to those people. And I do not think there is a way to put the genie back in the bottle.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's roll this clip of Renee Goode's family testifying at the Same hearing yesterday. B2.

[Luke Ganger]

My name is Luke Ganger and I'm here with my brother Brent. Renee Goode is our sister. We're here on behalf of Nay's big family and those who loved her. We're here to ask for your help. I was Talking to my 4 year old last week when she noticed I was not doing well. I had to come here today and talk to some important people. She knows that her aunt died and that somebody caused it to happen. The deep distress our family feels because of Nay's losses in such a violent and unnecessary way is complicated by feelings of disbelief, distress, and desperation for change. In the last few weeks, our family took some consolation, thinking that perhaps Nay's death would bring about change in our country. And it has not. The completely surreal scenes taking place on the streets of Minneapolis are beyond explanation. This is not just a bad day or a rough week or isolated incidents. These encounters with federal agents are changing the community and changing many lives, including ours, forever.

[Krystal Ball]

So then I kind of disagree respectfully, with Renee Good's brother there on the point he's making about feeling as though her death has not brought about change. Public opinion has put a lot of pressure on the Trump administration. And that really, I mean, the Renee Good death was the moment that changed. From my vantage point at least. I'm curious what you make of that. And one thing I wanted to ask too is people talk, and we've talked here about the kind of Dem Tea Party moment. Feels to me like the Abolish ICE movement has become a really critical part of, like Obamacare for the Tea Party movement. Was that rallying policy question? It feels to me like Abolish ICE has kind of emerged as that for the Democratic Party moment.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So I'll take your first question first. I tend to agree with you. I think from his vantage point, and I hate to speak for him, but when you are the victim of an injustice that's as profound as the loss of a family member, then the only elixir is for the source of that injustice to be held accountable and then for that to stop. It would probably be difficult for somebody that's dealing with that type of tragedy to see what we're seeing, which is that event being a flashpoint for really a political and cultural awakening for a lot of people in terms of, like, how far ICE has gone, what ICE really represents. Right now, you're seeing it in all the podcast spaces with a lot of the guys who are part of. Of laundering Trump's reputation prior to the election and just how they're being held accountable by their audiences for what they told people they should do, which is go out and support this regime. All of that's political. I think what would be cathartic to that gentleman probably is to see one. There be accountability in the death of his loved one, and on top of that, to see ICE abuses stop or for there to be some plan for them to stop. And we frankly haven't seen that quite yet. We've seen a lot of political tug of war happening, but nothing that seems like an answer to the problem of how they're being deployed in certain cities. To your second question, which I have totally forgotten in that really articulate and eloquent rant, what was it again?

[Krystal Ball]

No, about how. So you have some Democrats voting with Republicans on the shutdown yesterday, and basically the Dem Tea Party moment seems to me like it's coalescing around. Abolish ICE in the way the Republican Tea Party was coalescing around Obamacare. And I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, that's funny. How can I be. That's funny. The Democrats don't get it. And, and it's, It's.

[Krystal Ball]

I feel like you're about to uncork something, man.

[Van Lathan]

No, no, it's. You know, I had a homeboy back in the day, and he used to like to, you know, have an occasional drink on. On Sunday night, you know, you come and he, he, Paul, he polish off three or four 12 packs, and he'd be like, he's. He's a light. He's a light drinker. I remember his, his girl telling him, hey, enough. It. Like, enough. Enough of it. Like everybody had had enough. And I remember talking to him, talking to him. We go out one time and he goes, hey, man, I'm just gonna stay around here. I'm just gonna have a couple of. I'm like, nah, man, you have an issue, you have a problem. We're dealing with you in love. But I'm telling you, this is a Serious thing. You're gonna lose your family. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. And it wasn't until he was seeing his kids, kids at Barnes and Noble that he really got the, the, the idea that she wanted something different, that he had a serious problem. The problem was a part of his makeup and it was time to address it. I wonder when the Democrats are going to see themselves in the mirror. Like when they're going to what Barnes and Noble visitation. Are we going to have to arrange for them, for them to see that they are orphaning their base? No, I, the as you see me search for words, I really don't know how to articulate them. They do not get it. We're not going for it. That's it. Like it. We're not going for it. We're not going for it. It can't be negotiated. There's so many things that we're not going for. Like it can't be negotiated. You can't talk nice about it. I wear, I'm aware that up on the Hill, everybody, there's all these histrionics and then they all go out and have a steak together and then go to Epstein's house and all of that stuff like that. I get that that's how it goes. But like at this point right now, that's over. We want this to stop. And how much ever pain has to happen to the general American public and project for this to be headed off for this, for this part of it. It. Ice, ICE overreaches for us to say, hey, abolish this. This can't be reformed. The guts of it have to be torn up. Torn up. Immigration enforcement is a part of having a country. You have, you're going to have borders, you're going to have immigration reform and reform and enforcement. Excuse me, enforcement. Should I say you guys pissed me off with the question. I'm so mad at the, at the Democrats and I'm not coming across as articulate as I would want to, but I have conversations with politicians. I talk to them a lot. They call me and they honestly don't get it. They are still in the phase of this where they are attempting to launder the reputation of ICE to convince me and other people like me the usefulness of ICE where they're attempting to soft pedal it. And it really is. I'm not even baffled. I'm fascinated.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

I think that a lot of people, if they had the conversations that I had, they would be gobsmacked by some of the political weakness. And I get it. It's complicated. I understand that it's complicated, but I was on the phone with somebody a couple of days ago. I said, man, figure out. Out what the. Figure out what desperate looks like. Figure out what truly obstructionist looks like, figure out what 10 is and go there. Figure out what 10 is. If there are all kinds of things ISIS funded for a long time, I get it, all that stuff, figure out what 10 is and go there. Because the disconnect between what I feel like the political intelligentsia of the left in Washington, that disconnect as it relates to the people that I'm having conversations with, that listen to my show, that talk to me, it's vast. They're talking about this issue as if it's regular, where there are people who are seeing Americans killed on the street and they're like, what are you guys going to do?

[Ryan Grim]

And it feels like for a while, and tell me if this connects with what your conversation been like feeling for a while. Democrats thought their answer needed to be to grow a beard and start using profanity.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Ryan Grim]

And like, that. That was gonna show, like, how serious they were about changing, you know, their approach to Trump and to. And to politics. I see. I can't tell if I see a little bit less of that. Like, they started realizing, okay, it actually, it's not authentic. And, like, if it's not coupled with something meaningful, it doesn't really land. And so maybe this is like an answer to what they could do. Like, the MAGA movement, they were serious about changing the country. Like they told you, if we get into power, we're going to build the wall, we're going to do mass deportation, we're going to do tariffs. Like, they had these big ideas that stood in for the expression of the anger that people had. Like, you've got this anger, and we're going to do these big fundamental things. Democrats don't seem to have that. Like, they've got profanity. Some of them. Some of them have grown beards, but they're not really. There's nothing that you can grab onto that you can say, oh, if they get into power, this is how the anger that I have at what's going on is going to be expressed. Abolish ICE would be one of those things to say, look, ICE is irredeemable. We're getting rid of it. We're still doing immigration enforcement. But this rogue agency that's killing people in the streets, like CBP is actually killing more people in the streets. Deal with that separately. They gotta go like something like that. Does that track that? They feel like all they have to do is channel the anger by sounding angry themselves, but without any kind of meaning or substance behind it.

[Van Lathan]

I think you're, you're, you're dead on. And I think that comes or that exists because they have for so long been a harm reduction party. And that robs you of vision. Right? The Republican maga, Trumpism wings, they provided a vision to America. Now, in my opinion, and opinion of a lot of people, that vision was grotesque, but it was a vision nonetheless. And behind that vision, in order for them to be taken seriously, there had to be action. Now that action is disorganized. It violates the Constitution, it's inhumane. It's the entire list of things. But it had to exist. It had to be there. Abolish ice is vision. Defund the police. I know you guys don't like it. That's a vision statement. That's a statement.

[Ryan Grim]

It's a big idea.

[Van Lathan]

It's a big idea.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, right.

[Van Lathan]

It's, it's something that says, hey, let's reimagine that. And it this and whatever. Is it the most popular thing? No. Is it something that should have been discussed for the merits of what it actually was? Yes. Are some of these things jarring and shaking to the milk toast boule bourgeoisie person who doesn't want to see society set on flames and reimagined. Cool. Get all of that. The question is, what's your version of that? Like, what is your vision? Okay, we know that this needs to stop. How do you imagine it stopping? How do you imagine immigration enforcement? How do you imagine a path to citizenship? How do you imagine humanity for people that we share borders with? What is your version of this? Like? And you just. It's very difficult. They are so concerned with not being rude that it seems like they care more about that than actual victory and the protection of the people who put them in power.

[Krystal Ball]

In the politics of it, the political value of being able to milk the energy to have the hearing like they put together yesterday without putting their policy, like you said, whatever they're reimagining, putting it on the table, you can talk. And end up never actually. Republicans did this with Obamacare. It's a perfect parallel. They never put anything right now they don't have anything. It's been 15 years.

[Van Lathan]

Right. Because their resistance to Obamacare has nothing to do with what we're trying to talk about, which is, is how are people going to get to the doctor, okay, like, how are people going to get care? And I think that really on both sides of this, there is something happening. And I really desperately hope that we can take advantage of the moment. People that want to live in a society of freedom and people are really getting to a point where they're starting to ask the question. And it's a question that all Americans should always have asked themselves. But it's a hard question to ask, like, what's in this for me? I think the biggest thing about the. What ICE is doing in the overreaches is people are seeing in their communities, in their societies, this dysfunction and chaos. And they're going, is this changing my life? And are things cheaper? Are societies better, or are you injecting a whole bunch of chaos into my world for political reasons? For your power?

[Ryan Grim]

Right?

[Van Lathan]

We voted for a long time to. I guess we know what it's in. What's in it for Trump. We know what's in it for Chuck Schumer. We know what's in it for all of these people. They get power. They get to continue to pull the strings of society. Well, just ask yourself, like, what's in it for you? What have you gotten for this? Have you gotten better medical care? Do you get lower grocery prices? What's the. Is any of this working for you? And I think on both sides of the aisle, people are going. It doesn't seem like anyone's really thinking about me.

[Ryan Grim]

Yep. Van, always a pleasure to have you on. Look forward to your next appearance. Higher learning podcast, everybody. Check it out. Thanks so much for joining us.

[Van Lathan]

No problem. I wore this hat because next time I want to come, I want to fish. I want to fish and go to fish. I'm fishing today and then we go to fish in the evening. Ryan, don't leave me out, brother.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm in. You're in. All right. You're in the crew. All right. See ya. Up next, Iran talks are moving to Oman. Is it just a. They just like faking this so they can get their assets in place to bomb Tehran again? Probably. We'll talk about it next.

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[Krystal Ball]

Details out of the Arabian Sea let's put this first element up on the screen. As Fox News says here, the US military shot down an unmanned Iranian drone after quote it aggressively approached a US Navy aircraft carrier with unclear intent. A US Central Command spokesperson told Fox News the USS Abraham Lincoln was transiting the Arabian Sea, approximately 500 miles from Iran's southern coast, when an Iranian Shahed 139 drone unnecessarily maneuvered toward the ship. According to that spokesperson for centcom, Ryan, this is a reminder of how fragile the conditions in the Middle east are right now. And I know a lot of people on the right who are disappointed that Trump has not made good on his promises in Iran. But reminders got a drone. Reminders aplenty. Yes, they got a drone. Of how quickly, quickly, quickly this can escalate. The second an American is hurt, you have a different, completely different war.

[Ryan Grim]

The asymmetry here is wild. If we try to add up the amount of money the US spent to shoot down this was a $20,000 drone, it would reach into well into the probably hundreds of millions. I mean if you count the billion dollar aircraft, although we can keep aircraft carry, we can keep using that, the missiles, the like, the equipment. This is a fundamental material problem for the US Going forward that it's up against and it's up against this new cheap drone warfare and it is using its older like multi billion dollar assets where in a war of attrition with somebody who can actually produce them consistently like China, we run out of like $10 million missiles pretty quickly and they can just keep slapping together these drones.

[Krystal Ball]

And I will see in this case, like there's a. You and I may disagree on this, but there's I think an interesting test case happening right now for the peace through strength doctrine at its best. So if Trump de escalates by having aircraft carriers in the Arabian Sea and threatening Iran, but not actually going much further, like doing what they want him to do and they being the neoconservative bulwark that remains in power through Lindsey Graham and many, many others here in Washington, though not many others around the country. Average voters, not a huge constituency of course, but by not giving into their demands for like full scale war and using the big stick, it's possible that fewer people die and you're spared a broader conflict. But.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, at this point I would take that because my expectations of Trump are so low. But I'm really tired of him taking credit for not doing bigger wars that he didn't have to do at all. I'll still say he's like, look at Venezuela. Like we went in and we went out and could have have done a long term occupation invasion. Well, you could have also just left them alone. Nobody know.

[Krystal Ball]

Like we still don't know that it's not going to. It's the same thing with Iran. I mean, there's so many people who are taking victory laps after June. Like, oh, you guys were wrong.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, we only did 12 days, by the way.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm happy to take an L. Happy.

[Ryan Grim]

To take an L. But it's February and here we are back again.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Ryan Grim]

Why? Like, again, why? Like what?

[Krystal Ball]

Like, and here we are with Delsey Rodriguez in charge of Venezuela. Like, what was your. What are you actually doing?

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, good question. So nuclear talks are kicking up so we can put up C3. So talks are scheduled now in Oman. They will not be. They're called. News media's calling them between the US And Iran. But Iranian officials are saying they're indirect talks in a sense, that the US Is still refusing to kind of be in the same room. Qatar's going to be there and they're going back and forth. There's some reporting out of Iran that they've gotten hints that Kushner might end up becoming involved because we can put up C2. This is from Amwaj Media, which is very well sourced among Iranian insiders. They were saying that one of the problems with the last round of negotiations, besides the fact that Trump killed all the negotiators, is that Witkoff consistently had to fly back to the United States to get answers, which you can imagine how frustrating that is. You're in the. You're in an office, you're trying to buy a used car salesman's like, I got to go talk to my manager, see if I can give you a discount on this true coat. And he comes back 10 minutes later, he's like, great news. You know, as long as you do the 10 year warranty, we can do this true coat at a discount. Imagine he had to fly back halfway around the world every time, and then the Iranians are sitting there twiddling their thumbs and then they get bombed. So you can imagine that those are not ideal negotiating circumstances. So they're saying, like, can you get some more people who are empowered to actually make deals? To me, the whole thing is absurd. Like, it seems pretty clear Trump is not serious about negotiations and is just stalling because they launched most of their anti missile defenses during the 12 Day War. And so they need to restock so that they can defend Israel from whatever counterattack comes, they can defend their other assets around the region, and they need to get all of their own naval and air assets close enough to Iran so they can launch an attack. That seems to be what they're doing in the past. Every time that they have Invited the Iranians to negotiate, including Soleimani, who I'll keep reminding people, Qasem Soleimani was in Baghdad when he was assassinated because he was lured there for negotiations towards peace. It's Trump's move. He thinks it's clever. He thinks nobody sees it coming. And he's correct at first because that's like a maniacal thing to do, right? Yeah. Because for thousands of years, the one thing that even Genghis Khan or whatever would like, like, recognize and be like, yeah, people go out and talk. Like, it's just not pragmatic to kill that person, but talk to them and then you can go back and kill each other later. Trump was like, oh, but what if we killed them at the negotiating table when they're not looking?

[Krystal Ball]

Have you thought of this before?

[Ryan Grim]

Have you thought of that?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

So, you know, there's only so many red weddings until people show up at the wedding in, like. So that's why I suspect that the Iranians are assuming that an attack is coming. You still gotta take the invitation. You can imagine being tapped for these negotiations if you're an Iranian diplomat.

[Krystal Ball]

No, I cannot.

[Ryan Grim]

Like, no, really, this weekend, helping my friend move, like, this is a chance of a lifetime. Would really love to do this, but. But if they can move it to Oman. Oh, they moved it to Oman.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, God, there it is.

[Ryan Grim]

Can't do Oman, actually. Turns out. Yeah, yeah, I'm kind of worn out in Oman. Things got a little out of control a couple years ago when I was there.

[Krystal Ball]

Would really love to.

[Ryan Grim]

Really love to. Can't go to Oman. So. Yeah, and there's also reporting in that article that you can go read, which backs up reporting that Jeremy Scahol had done earlier drop sci fi, which is that Iran had felt that the best way to de escalate these Trump attacks was to forecast exactly what they were going to do. Tell Trump ahead of time so that there's minimal amount of damage and no actual damage to people, to American troops. And to announce ahead of time, we consider, after we respond, we consider this finished. And so that's what they did multiple times. And there were people arguing at the time inside Iran, this is only going to convey weakness and invite more attacks that you have to hit Trump harder. And the people who advocated for the restrained response, a lot of them were killed, and now they're being replaced by the people who had said, you're gonna get yourself killed with this restraint. What Trump doesn't want is a forever war that he can't control. He's been very clear he hates those. So what we need to do is show him that we can pull one of those off. So we need to hit American assets in Iraq, American assets in Syria, American assets in Doha, and we need to hit Israel as much as we can. And they've even talked about killing as many as 500American troops to send a signal that there are going to be consequences to you continuing to attack us every six months. They feel like that's. This faction feels like that's the only way to get this, to stop, that that's the only language Trump understands. And the people in the room to argue against it were killed by Trump. So. So maybe they're all bluffing and, or maybe the US can just annihilate their response capacity. Who knows? And hopefully we won't find out. But that's the current state of play.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, well, that's, I mean, just the drone strike yesterday is again a reminder of how quickly this can completely change. Completely. You can wake up one day and an American could have been killed on an aircraft carrier and we could be sending more and more troops, we could be sending boots on the damn ground in a heartbeat because of how fragile this is.

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[Ryan Grim]

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