3/17/25: Dem Approval Plummets After Schumer Cave, Biden Demanded Kamala Loyalty For Trump Debate

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – Episode Summary
Episode Title: Dem Approval Plummets After Schumer Cave, Biden Demanded Kamala Loyalty For Trump Debate
Release Date: March 17, 2025

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1. Declining Democratic Approval and Shifting Base Sentiment

Overview:
Krystal Ball and Sagar Enjeti delve into the sharp decline in Democratic approval ratings following Senate leaders Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand's decision to collaborate with Republicans on passing the budget. This move, intended to prevent a government shutdown, has backfired, resulting in historically low approval numbers for the Democratic Party.

Key Points:

• Historic Low Ratings:
  Sagar Enjeti (04:38) shares that "Americans' favorable views of the Democratic Party brand are at a record low, just 29%, compared to 36% for Republicans. It is the lowest ever recorded for Democrats in CNN polling going back more than 30 years."

• Shift in Democratic Priorities:
  Krystal Ball (05:20) highlights the shift in the Democratic base from seeking bipartisan compromises to insisting on holding the GOP accountable:
  "Back in April of 2017... 59% of Democrats wanted to make compromises with Trump... Now, 65% of Democrats want the party to stand up to Trump and stick to their positions."

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2. Critique of Democratic Leadership: Chuck Schumer Under Fire

Overview:
The hosts critique Democratic leadership, particularly focusing on Chuck Schumer's inability to navigate the current political climate effectively, leading to diminished party leverage and internal dissatisfaction.

Key Points:

• Schumer’s Strategy Questioned:
  Sagar Enjeti (06:21) critiques Schumer's approach, noting his potential misreading of the political moment:
  "Because they're trying to do business as usual, whereas it's clear the Trump administration is not really interested in that."

• Consequences of Schumer's Decisions:
  The discussion emphasizes that Schumer's strategy has not only failed to preserve Democratic leverage but has also left the party vulnerable to Republican maneuvers, effectively diminishing future negotiation power.

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3. Budget Resolution and Its Political Fallout

Overview:
The passage of the budget resolution by Democrats, perceived as a concession to Republican demands, has significant implications for governmental operations and Democratic strategy moving forward.

Key Points:

• Impact on Government Operations:
  Krystal Ball (16:48) explains that the budget resolution wasn't a standard continuation but included measures that advantage the executive branch, weakening legal checks against the Trump administration.

• Loss of Leverage:
  Sagar Enjeti (15:03) discusses how passing the budget now removes potential future leverage points for Democrats, such as using budgetary disagreements to negotiate policy concessions.

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4. Trump's Executive Actions and Increased Authoritarianism

Overview:
Trump's recent actions, including defying court orders and invoking the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, signal a surge in authoritarian tactics, exacerbating concerns among Democrats and the general populace.

Key Points:

• Defiance of Court Orders:
  Krystal Ball (02:14) mentions Trump's open defiance of court orders, indicating a disregard for legal constraints.

• Weaponization of Anti-Semitism:
  The hosts discuss how anti-Semitism is being manipulated to suppress dissent and consolidate Trump's power, raising alarms about the erosion of democratic norms.

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5. Kamala Harris’s Campaign and Biden’s Overbearing Influence

Overview:
The episode scrutinizes President Biden's interference in Kamala Harris's campaign, demanding unwavering loyalty during critical moments like the Trump debate, which has undermined Harris's ability to craft her own political narrative.

Key Points:

• Biden’s Demands:
  Krystal Ball (03:48) reveals excerpts from a new book detailing Biden's pressure on Harris to protect his legacy over establishing her own campaign identity:
  "No daylight, kid."

• Harris's Lack of Autonomy:
  The discussion criticizes Harris for not asserting her independence from Biden, with Sagar Enjeti (34:51) stating, "She was always changing the messaging with the seasons."

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6. Internal Democratic Party Rebellion and Calls for Leadership Change

Overview:
A growing rebellion within the Democratic Party, cutting across ideological lines, demands leadership changes, specifically urging Chuck Schumer to step down amidst the party's declining fortunes.

Key Points:

• Unified Dissatisfaction:
  Krystal Ball (19:30) highlights that the discontent isn't limited to progressive factions but includes moderates frustrated with the party's inability to effectively counter Republican strategies.

• Groups Advocating for Change:
  Organizations like Pass the Torch and Indivisible are actively mobilizing support for Schumer's resignation, indicating a significant internal power struggle.

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7. Emerging Democratic Leaders and Media Influence

Overview:
With traditional media outlets losing traction, independent media figures like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) and Bernie Sanders are rising as central voices for the Democratic base, emphasizing resistance against Republican agendas.

Key Points:

• AOC and Bernie’s Leadership:
  Krystal Ball (46:23) notes AOC leading polls on who best represents Democratic core values, reflecting the base's preference for outspoken and active resistance figures.

• Decline of Traditional Figures:
  Figures like Barack Obama and Nancy Pelosi have significantly dwindled in influence, as evidenced by polling data showing low recognition among current Democratic voters.

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8. Future Prospects for the Democratic Party

Overview:
The episode concludes with an analysis of the Democratic Party's uncertain future, grappling with internal divisions, leadership challenges, and the need to present a unified and effective opposition to the Trump administration.

Key Points:

• Need for Cohesive Strategy:
  Krystal Ball (44:37) emphasizes the necessity for Democratic leaders to adopt a more adversarial stance and align more closely with the party base's expectations for resistance.

• Potential for Primary Challenges:
  The discussion touches on the lack of significant primary actions and questions whether the party will see proactive challenges to current leadership to realign with voter sentiments.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sagar Enjeti (04:38): "Americans' favorable views of the Democratic Party brand are at a record low, just 29%. That's compared to 36% for Republicans."

• Krystal Ball (05:20): "Back in April of 2017... 59% of Democrats wanted to make compromises with Trump... Now, 65% of Democrats want the party to stand up to Trump and stick to their positions."

• Sagar Enjeti (06:21): "Because they're trying to do business as usual, whereas it's clear the Trump administration is not really interested in that."

• Krystal Ball (03:48): "No daylight, kid."

• Krystal Ball (46:23): "AOC ends up at the top of that list. But I do think it's very different from how things would have been in the resistance era or even in the Biden era."

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Conclusions

Krystal and Sagar provide a critical examination of the Democratic Party's faltering approval ratings, attributing much of the blame to ineffective leadership and strategic missteps by figures like Chuck Schumer. The internal rebellion within the party, coupled with external pressures from Trump's assertive maneuvers, has left Democrats in a precarious position. Emerging leaders like AOC and Bernie Sanders are positioned as the new vanguards of the party's resistance, suggesting a potential shift in strategy towards more overt opposition and unified messaging. The episode underscores the urgency for the Democratic Party to realign with its base's expectations and adopt a more cohesive and resilient approach to countering Republican tactics in the evolving political landscape.

Transcript

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[Sagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com. good morning, everybody. Happy Monday. Have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal?

[Krystal Ball]

Indeed. We do a lot of breaking news. So we're tracking the fallout after Dems caved and Schumer helped the Republicans pass their budget. New polling there, too, as well. And I'm interested to get Sager's take on how all of this went down since Ryan and Emily talked about it some on and myself talked about it some on Friday. We also have some pretty stunning new reporting from the Kamala campaign about Joe Biden's interventions there and his demands on her and also how pathetically she just accepted them. So we'll get into all of that. Trump appeared over the weekend to openly defy a court order with regard to his invocation of the Alien enemies Act of 1798. So we will break all of those details down for you. We've got some new economic numbers. The consumer Sentiment Index plunged significantly. We've got Scott Besant, the Treasury secretary, out there saying stock market corrections are normal. Don't worry about it. So obviously keeping our eye on that as well. Trump announced massive strikes against the Houthis and they are claiming retaliation. Zionists are getting some wins in Trump administration staffing. This is one that Sager has been tracking really closely. And I'm taking a look at the way that anti Semitism is being weaponized in order to facilitate Trump's power grab.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yep. Well, unfortunately, there's probably. You could probably talk about that one for like 45 minutes or.

[Krystal Ball]

It was hard to narrow down the monologue. Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What do you not put in the monologue? I'm looking forward to that. Thank you to everybody who's been subscribing to the show. We really appreciate it. We've got five days a week of coverage now here on Breaking Points. I hope everybody is enjoying that. But yeah, let's talk about the Democrats. There's a lot to break down here.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. So you guys know there was a whole thing last week, Democrats had to, in the Senate had to help Republicans to pass this budget, otherwise the government was going to shut down. This was really the only point of leverage that Democrats have with Republicans for the foreseeable future. And yet in spite of that and in spite of the fact that, you know, Democrats and myself believe that there's this authoritarian power grab going on, they decided they would cave. Led by Chuck Schumer and actually Kirsten Gillibrand. Kind of interesting, the two senators from New York, home of Wall street, were the two that led the charge to cave. And of course, we'll have the economic numbers in a moment to show you why they may have been super concerned about a government shutdown. But in any case, in, on in the wake of that, we have some new polling numbers about how people feel about Democrats and how they are doing in this new Trump era 2.0. And those numbers are pretty grim. Let's take a listen.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Americans favorable views of the Democratic Party brand are at a record low, just 29%. That's compared to 36% for Republicans. It is the lowest ever recorded for Democrats in CNN polling going back more than 30 years. As you can see the party's numbers dropping a staggering 20 points in just four years. The CNN SRSR's poll also found 57% of Democrats and Democratic leaning voters are more interested in seeing their party leader stop the GOP agenda compared to 42% who are more interested in cutting bipartisan deals. It is a big shift from where the party stood at the start of Trump's first term in 2017.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, and we have a graphic of that last piece just to put back up on the screen because I think this is a really important point, the way that the Democratic base has moved in terms of what they wanna see out of the party. So back in April of 2017, this might actually surprise you because it's remembered as a time of sort of peak Trump resistance. But at that time you still had a majority of Democrats, 59%, who said what they wanted to see Democrats in Congress do was to make compromise with Trump to gain consensus on legislation, versus 33% saying they need to stick to their positions, even if it means getting things done. Now that has completely reversed. 65% of Democrats want the party to stand up to Trump and stick to their positions, even if it means grinding the gears to a halt. And a lot of that movement, with regard to, listen, Democrats are just not popular across the board. A lot of the movement in terms of their approval rating falling off. Sagar comes from within their own party where people are incredibly dissatisfied with the weakness and the failures of Democratic leaders like Chuck Schumer.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating to see their internal, their internal thinking inside of the party. And you know, we've probably talked about it here ad nauseam, but probably a lot of our viewers may not have been really watching a lot or involved in politics back in the 2010 period. This is exactly what the Republican base wanted to see from its leaders against Obama. And the thing is about Mitch McConnell, he may be an establishment type. He actually read the moment incredibly well in 2009 in that first interview.

[Krystal Ball]

He is very much Machiavellian. Ye.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. They asked him, they said, okay, so what is your strategy to deal with Barack Obama? And he said, our goal is to get Barack Obama to not win reelection in 2012. Now obviously they failed, but their theory was just this President, no matter what he puts in front of us, we are gonna slow this thing down. No matter what. We will use the full exercise of the United States Senate and our majority that we have to make sure that we hold things up. There's no more business as usual in a lot of ways, like kind of reinvented the Washington mold in that regard. So what the Democrats wanna see is at this point too, if you are a Democrat and you're quote unquote playing by the rules, you are a bit of a fool. No, I mean 2010 was a long time ago. It's been 15 years at this point for you to adapt. The only thing that I'm like somewhat sympathetic to is that these establishment Democrats are not wrong that if they had shut down the government, Trump and Elon and them would have used it as a pretext to basically just pick who would be the essential government workers and who is not. Now the counter to that, which is also correct, is. Well, that's basically what they're doing.

[Krystal Ball]

They're already doing it. Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So what's the point? From a pure statistical political calculus point of view, I think that just for their own outcome, they probably should have shut down the government because I don't. First of all, the Democratic base would have been with them. Second, I mean, again, I'm not advocating for this. I don't think it'd be a good thing, but the economy would continue to be bad. Like stock markets always crash whenever there's a shutdown. People downgrade our debt. There'd be a lot more questions about the debt ceiling and fights like that in the future. Overall, the stocks definitely would have fallen. It would have only fed more into an economic collapse narrative that would obviously I think be beneficial to the Democrats. Republicans did actually kind of want a shutdown. Apparently Trump and them were looking for a shutdown in some ways cuz they thought they would win that fight. I don't think that's ever the case. That anytime a party in power has all three branches of government, it's just ridiculous to think that you're not going to get the overall blame from the American people. So I really have no idea kind of which way. But I get where the establishment Dems and all them were coming from. But it is a profound political misreading of the moment. But because that's they're trying to do business as usual, whereas it's clear the Trump administration is not really interested in that. And the Democrat base is also not really interested in that. So it's like an old gasp. I think of something. Do I think it will happen again? No, I don't. Not after all of this.

[Krystal Ball]

You don't think so?

[Sagar Enjeti]

I don't know.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, here's the thing. It's like Chuck Schumer, first of all, I think he cannot update his mental model to adjust for what you just described. We are no longer in politics as usual. This is not some normal, like, back and forth, give and take. That's not what's going on. So I think because he is old and because he's been there for so long, he is incapable of really grappling with that. But we also have to say the failure here on the Democratic leadership part started long before you got to Friday and are faced with this, like, yes or no vote. The failure really started when they had no plan for, like, okay, here is our demand and we are sticking to it. And we are not giving you the votes that you need, Republican Party and Trump, in order to pass this budget resolution without you exceeding to one of our. To our demands. Now, you could have. There could have been any number of demands that you make. You know, it could have been, we want funding restored to the Department of Education. We want the CFPB back. We want DOGE on a Social Security. We want Elon fired. We want Elon subpoenaed. We want DOGE to be done or have to report to. I mean, there are 30 different things off the top of your head that you could think of that would have been reasonable demands for Democrats to make where they would have been firmly on the side of public opinion. They could have messaged relentlessly on it. And then if the government shuts down, they say, listen, we made really clear what we needed in here. We were willing to work with Republicans. They never came to us with, you know, and here we made it really, really clear what we would need to vote for this bill. They didn't do it. That's why the government is shut down. So even the fact that you got to this vote and none of that groundwork had been laid, that's really where the ultimate failure lay. But, I mean, listen, they don't have a lot of power in D.C. there are only a few times where Republicans need them. This is one of the only times in sight where Republicans need them for anything. And you just pass this and you got nothing like that is utterly pathetic. Pathetic. And so, you know, and I think it's not just Democrats who wanna see Democrats fight. There are a lot of independents out there. I mean, we could put the next piece up on the screen. There's a lot of Trump voters who aren't super happy with what's going on and would like to see some balance brought back to D.C. in terms of checks and balances and the opposition party acting like something other than like pathetic losers. So in this particular focus group, which it's not scientific, but always interesting to hear what voters have to say. 10 of 13 Trump voters, these are people who voted for Biden and then switched to Trump, said that they were unhappy with Trump's approach. Some words that were used were erratic, frightening, disruptive, and dictator. That being said, what was it like? One of them said that they would have switched their votes to Kamala. So even as they're very dissatisfied with Trump. Yeah, there we go. Only one of the 10 Trump voters turned critics said that they would choose Kamala Harris for president if they could do it over again. And I mean, this is. The risk for Democrats is like, yeah, people are increasingly souring on the Trump and elon show in D.C. but are they gonna offer a sufficient enough response and appealing enough alternative that people will say, okay, but this is better than what's offered on the other side.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's a very good point.

[Krystal Ball]

Right?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Is that you can be dissatisfied with your pick, but you and also say, yeah, it was still the better pick, or he was somebody who I would stick with. That was actually probably the biggest Democratic problem. In a nutshell, we should also say did not realize, not only with the approval figure, but flagged this morning, was that in that NBC News poll about approval rating, about 36% approval, you'll see approved of the Republican Party. But of those, they consider themselves part of the MAGA movement, which is apparently one of the highest numbers ever recorded. I think that's important from a party takeover perspective. There's this old school idea that was tested in 2017 and in 2024 during the primary that it's like MAGA is not really part. MAGA itself is a distinct part. And it's like, no, this is a complete and total takeover of the Republican Party. So I think that is important for people to understand too, in terms of where their approval for Trump will be and in terms of also how they consider themselves politically distinct from any previous iteration of the Republican Party. You did have flagged this part of Chuck Schumer. He is apparently on book tour right now. What timing. And the book is on anti Semitism. How good is that? Right? It's like check, check, check in terms of all the boxes. Here he is explaining why he decided to do what he did. Let's take a listen.

[Krystal Ball]

I knew this would be an unpopular decision. I knew that. I know politics.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But I felt so strongly as a.

[Krystal Ball]

Leader that I couldn't let this happen.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Because weeks and months from now, things.

[Krystal Ball]

Would be far worse than they even.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Are today, that I had to do.

[Krystal Ball]

What I had to do.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Can I just ask you about the tactic here? Because the choice that you made to vote with the Republicans, isn't that an argument to get rid of the filibuster? You wanted to keep it when you were in the majority, but if you're not going to use it in the minority, then what's the point of it?

[Krystal Ball]

The point here, again, I'll repeat what I said would be how devastating a shutdown would be. Just think a month from now if.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Half the federal workers. But I'm asking about the use of the filibuster. No, but the bottom line is if we would have. If the filibuster would have been used.

[Krystal Ball]

And the government shut down, the devastation would be terrible.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The choice has been made. But I think the whole Democratic Party is united on what I mentioned in.

[Krystal Ball]

The earlier broadcast, showing how bad Trump.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Is in every way.

[Krystal Ball]

Organizing. We're organizing this week and next week in Republican districts.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We're having rallies to not give tax breaks to millionaires. And we're succeeding. We're succeeding, Lulu.

[Krystal Ball]

We're bringing his numbers down.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it's just. It was a great question. His answer is incredibly revealing. I do think everyone should really go back to the point that you were making, is that it was obvious. This entire thing was obvious now for weeks to anybody who can read the news in Washington. That means including these Senate leaders. And it's like, well, so he really had no idea between you and Hakeem Jeffries, like, what any sort of plan was. It is interesting. The House Democrats were trying to cast a lot of blame on Schumer, but, you know, a lot of it's on them, too, because it's like you were saying, if you knew this was coming down the pipeline, you needed to have some sort of strategy both for an alternative to be able to force Republicans. And actually the Republicans played their hands well at the end. What they did is they passed it and then they all just left town. Meaning that basically the Democrats would have had to call their bluff. If they had basically telegraphed from the future there could have been a fight, then maybe the Republican leaders would not have felt so confident. And now you've got all the way through September. I mean, that's a long time in politics. That's nine months of the first Trump administration where he does not have to contend with a serious legislative crisis. And actually the real failure on Schumer's part is the tax bill because now what they can do is use that tax bill and reconciliation there in the future to basically pass it before that September deadline, meaning that this is now ground that you have to fight on where you've already given up any significant leverage that you once have. So it's actually maybe frankly worse than people may think. Because if you hadn't just done, let's say, a 30 day extension of spending, you could continue to use that as leverage over a future tax negotiation. Now you have nothing. And the Republicans have united control of government. They can use a reconciliation package and they don't even need to look at you anymore.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. Well, and it's not just the leverage. Jeff Stein actually did the best reporting on this in the cr. This actually hands Trump and it's not really accurate to call it a CR because the continuing resolution is usually just the previous budget levels. This was not just the previous budget levels. This cut domestic spending, it raised defense spending, it had different provisions in it that Republicans wanted, like not having to vote on Trump's tariff agenda. But also inherent in this legislation is handing more power to the executive. And so it's not just leverage, it's also a matter of fact and reality that the one place, and we'll talk about this more later in the show, the one place where there has been some effective effort to block and stymie the Trump and Elon take down. The government approach has been in the court system and you are cutting out some of the legal arguments you can make against them in court by signing onto this budget resolution. So that was the other part of this that was really incredibly important. This is Jenny Garth from I do part two. If you could lose 10.4 pounds in one month, would you try with Future Health? You can. Future Health gives millions access to affordable weight loss meds for less than three bucks a day. Find out if weight loss meds are right for you in just 3 minutes at try fh.com try fh.com results vary based on start weight and adherence to diet, exercise and program goals. Data based on independent study sponsored by Future Health. Future Health is not a healthcare services provider. Meds are prescribed at providers discretion. Does this podcast make you happy? Of course it does. That's why you're here, but it only.

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[Krystal Ball]

What is so different here from the Trump 1.0 in the Democratic Party approach really, is the way that liberals are so disgusted with leadership. And, you know, to Sagra's point about the House Democrats being pissed off at Schumer, we're not just talking about AOC here. Yes, AOC was pissed off, but there were moderate Democrats who reportedly were ready to write AOC checks to primary Chuck Schumer. Why? Because they felt like they got hung out to dry. They felt like if you're in a swing district and you're facing a tough reelect, they felt like they took a tough vote to vote against this. I'm not really sure it was that tough of a vote ultimately, if it's gonna be like that, politically perilous for them. But that's the way they felt about. And then they felt they were made to, quote, walk the plank by Chuck Schumer. So they were furious at how they were sort of hung out to dry here. And so there's rebellion within the Democratic caucus. I mean, it was astonishing. Hakeem Jeffries got asked the question, like, hey, do you think Chuck Schumer should continue here in leadership? And he said, no comment. Very pointedly, no comment. Asked about it multiple times, would not say that he has confidence in Chuck Schumer, that Chuck Schumer should continue to lead. I mean, that in and of itself is quite extraordinary. Another extraordinary thing that happened is that Nancy Pelosi came out against Chuck Schumer and was like, no, Democrats should vote against this and they should shut it down. They should listen to the women. Now, she didn't name him specifically, but obviously we all know this was quite a confrontational approach for her to take as well, putting that out. And so you've got a couple of organizations. You've got Pass the Torch. These are the people who sort of mobilized to try to push Biden out of the race after that disastrous debate performance. You can put this up on the screen. They're calling for Schumer to resign. That's significant. So you've got them using their resources, their list, whatever, to push this messaging. And then you also have Indivisible, which is kind of the preeminent liberal resistance group, which ended up being adversarial to some of the Bernie type primary candidates over the years, et cetera. So these are liberals, right? Rock solid Democratic liberals, who are also calling on Schumer to step aside. And then the Midas Touch folks have been quite aggressively critical of Schumer and are telling Democrats to, quote, grow a spine. Let's go ahead and take a listen to what they had to say. Democrats need to use their leverage to.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Stop what Trump and Musk and Doge are doing. Use every leverage point.

[Krystal Ball]

Americans want fighters, not this crap. Not caving. Grow a spine. Vote against cloture, Vote against the cr.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The American people are with you. And how do we know that? Because across the country, people in red areas, blue areas, purple areas are rising up at this hostile government takeover. We know what is happening. We know Musk is gutting Medicaid. We know Musk says that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme and he's firing.

[Krystal Ball]

Most of the people who work at the Social Security Administration.

[Sagar Enjeti]

People see the government buildings shutting down. We see the Trump regime firing veterans. Getting rid of the workers. 70,000 workers at the VA getting rid of critical government infrastructure.

[Krystal Ball]

Sinking our economy.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We must take a stand.

[Krystal Ball]

We must use the leverage that we.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The people have to stop the hostile government takeover. Reconsider immediately. Stop being spineless.

[Krystal Ball]

Fight for the people. Stop being spineless. And Midas Touch is really sort of like the beating heart of the Democratic Party base at this point. They've had an astronomical growth in terms of their ratings. By some metrics, they are the number one podcast in the world. And, you know, much at the expense of the MSNBCs and the CNNs and even the, like, Washington Post and New York Times. So when they're coming out so aggressively against Democratic leadership, that is a significant indicator.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Exactly. You know, somebody sent me something showing about their podcast statistics, and I think the answer is it's like, okay, if it's not number one, how about this? It's just Big channel. You know, it's 4.5 million subscribers on YouTube. These guys are racking up literally millions and millions of views on top of people like Brian Tyler Cohen and other who we interviewed previously. People should go and watch that just to get a sense of kind of who these new thought leaders are in the Democratic Party and. Or really just like who people are abandoning liberal media for. It's not always conservative influencers. Right. So I do think that generally it's important for people to take this in and to see politically where the mood is going to go. But part of the issue is with timing and with leverage, it's like, well, what can you now really do in the future? Kick the can down the road to September. You can try and block the tax bill. It's not gonna work because of the way that reconciliation and all of that is. And nine months is just an eternity or six months or whatever is an eternity in politics to see who knows how much things could change in the meantime. Now is definitely the time. They missed it. They're not gonna have some grand showdown moment now for quite some time. I wouldn't put it past the Republicans to try and, you know, attach a CR or something like that to a tax bill and kick this even further. They could even hitch the debt ceiling or something like that to reconcile to take away even more leverage points. By that time, you're in the midterms, and if this is all you have till the midterms, good luck to you.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think that the people like Midas Touch and many others who were saying, grow a spine and, you know, vote this and shut it down, I think we're also immediately vindicated because what happened literally that night can put this up on the screen. Trump moved forward with gutting seven more agencies and issuing an executive order saying that they should be effectively ended to the greatest extent possible. And like I was saying, part of the argument against voting for this was that it handed more power to the Trump administration to take unilateral action. It strips away some of the legal arguments that Democratic allies can make in court against these sorts of things. And so the fact that they vote for this and then immediately Trump issues this executive order, that's like seven more agencies are toast. These were all relatively small agencies, but still obviously quite significant. I think that really immediately vindicated those who thought that the Democrats took the wrong strategy here and really should have stood up and fought. The last thing I'll say is this is something we've touched on before. You know, the upset at Democratic leadership, first of all, it's across the board ideologically. It's really. It's being painted sometimes in the media is like, oh, leftists or progressives or, you know, the left is upset at Democratic leadership. That's just not an accurate way to characterize it at this point, because even within the Democratic House caucus, you have moderates who are very unhappy with the lack of leadership here. You know, I wish it had more of an ideological valence to it, that there was more sort of like, progressive ideology behind the revolt, but it's not. It's literally tactical. It's like, we want you to fight. We feel like our country is being taken away from us in real time. We feel like they are not operating by the rules and you all are pretending like you're back in, like, 1982 and making deals and cutting deals across the aisle. Like, that is just not going to work in this era. Not to mention how out of touch they seem with all of their sort of, like, media outreach efforts, et cetera. So that really is the core of the upset at Democratic leadership is not so much ideological. It's tactical. It's, we want you to grow a spine. We want you to fight. We want you to prove to us that you actually care about what's happening right now in the way that we do. So this will be an important story to continue to watch as the Democratic Party figures itself out in this era.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I still want to see some primaries, though. I want to, because I haven't seen any announcements in the same way by this time around. Well, it's not really fair, but I guess if we're going to compare Doge and the liberal base's reaction to Obamacare, which was a little bit later in the administration during the first term, that's when those announcements for primaries started to spring up. But I was checking and I haven't seen any, like, real. I mean, somebody always profiles or, sorry, primaries, Nancy Pelosi plot twist. It never works out. Like, somebody always primaries, I don't know, Mansion or somebody like that. He's gone. So we need to see actual, like, primary action for somebody who's up this time around. And then we need to see that level of, like, grassroots money that's inflowing. It is. I mean, what was the whole beef with AOC over oversight where she promised not to primary people even if she still didn't get it? So the problem is, is like, they're boxed into a corner a little bit. I'm curious to see if they're gonna break away from that, if you really wanna have some power in the next Congress, that's the only way that it's gonna happen. The only reason the Tea Party ever got taken seriously is cause they were able to take out literally the number two Republican in the country. People should just remember how insane stuff like that can be.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, well, that was the idea behind the Justice Democrats, which of course Kyle was involved in the founding of, was that you would get some of these renegades in there who didn't owe their loyalty to the like traditional Democratic Party system and they would be adversarial to leadership in the same way that the Tea Party was adversarial to Republican leadership. And the Tea Party and the, you know, Freedom Caucus and these successive like Tea Party esque parts of the Republican Party, they have wielded disproportionate amount of power because they understood you only need a small number who are willing to band together and gum things up. And you can get a lot, you can actually extract a lot, but your threat has to be credible. And so they were able to successfully primary, obviously AOC and Joe Crowley being the most prominent example, but Cori Bush is able to get in there. Jamaal Bowman, these are all people challenging incumbent Democrats and being able to be successful. But then that second piece of being adversarial towards leadership, that never came. And so they were never able to really use their power as some sort of cohesive group. They more acted as just like standard individual members with individual viewpoints, et cetera. The fact that you now have the base pushing in this direction and you have again, moderates even within the Democratic caucus who are saying primary, Chuck Schumer, we've got your back, et cetera. It's a different landscape that could create more courage among elected leaders to be more adversarial towards leadership. And in fact we've already seen that. I mean, even with AOC herself, she's been quite aggressively critical of Chuck Schumer in this moment in a way that we really haven't heard her be critical of Nancy Pelosi or other Democratic leaders in the past. So we'll see. Like Sager says, we've got to see how this all shakes out. And are there real primaries and do they succeed and. And how does this all come together? But I can tell you right now the landscape is so different in the Democratic Party and among who they're looking to also in terms of their media than it was previously.

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All right, let's get to this. Reporting from the Harris campaign and Biden's involvement. This is from a new book coming out from Jonathan Allen and Amy Parts, two great reporters. We're gonna have him on the show to talk about this book as well and get even more details of what all went down within the Commell campaign. But they released this excerpt. We can put this up on the screen. So they are looking at this core question of like, why the hell did this woman not separate herself from Joe Biden, who was clearly like, that was one of the core failures of this campaign. So let me go ahead and read this. They say that Kamala's rallies in the convention speech had not answered the question of why she was running for president, how her vision for the country would deliver for voters. Other than having been next in line, she was running out of major moments to explain a vision to a broad audience. Her September 10th debate with Trump would offer another opportunity, perhaps a last chance before voters cast early ballots to establish that key part of her narrative. But the day of the debate, Biden called to give Harris an unusual kind of pep talk. And another reminder about the loyalty he demanded. No longer able to defend his own record, he expected Harris to protect his legacy. It goes on. Whether she won or lost the election, he thought she would only harm him publicly, distancing herself from him, especially during a debate that would be watched by millions of Americans. To the extent that she wanted to forge her own path, Biden had no interest in giving her room to do so. He needed just three words to convey how much all of that mattered to him. No daylight, kid. And apparently this is something he said to her repeatedly. In addition, she had. Remember, she just basically took over the Biden slot with the Biden campaign out of Delaware. So she had all of these Biden staffers around her who were also interested in, like, preserving his quote, unquote legacy. They talk in this excerpt. There's an anecdote where they were in some other kind of prop for an interview, and. And she started ticking off, like, here's all the great things that Biden did, blah, blah, blah. And one of the staffers was like, let's not do the whole trip down memory lane. That staffer was never invited back to the one who actually had a good idea that one was cut out and never invited back here. So, I mean, there's two things to say about this. Number one, Biden, what a shitty person, what a narcissistic person, like, what a liar that you actually care about defeating. Like, you cared more about your own ego preservation than actually defeating the guy that you said was a fascist and authoritarian threat to the country. How pathetic is that? Number two, how pathetic is it that Kamal listened? Ultimately, she's the primary actor. She got to do what she wanted. She could have run the campaign. However she went, she wanted to. When that staffer got cut out, it should have been like, no, actually, you are cut out. Stephanie Cutter, the person who was leading the charge there, you're out. This person's in. I need to shake this up. I need to listen to people who are actually gonna give me good advice in order to this campaign, rather than to protect the feelings of an elderly, senile old man.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I completely agree. I was thinking about it. If you think in the past this is always a tension when vice presidents run while their incumbent president is in office. Vice President Nixon in 1960, Al Gore, George H.W. bush. And in all cases, though, I still think they did a better job of distinguishing themselves from their person that they were in. And those people were actually popular as opposed to Biden. I mean, if you think about it just in terms of like, pure nuts and bolts. Not only is Biden dropped out of the race, which is puts him at a way weaker position than any of those presidents, previously literal two termers who were pretty popular, they also have a situation where he's a senile old man, he's gonna be gone in a decade. I don't wish for that to happen, but, you know, statistically, more, it's very likely. So what are you waiting for? Like, these stakes were literally so high. If you're a liberal, you got crushed. I mean, you basically ushered in a new era of American government. I think that's great. But you guys told us that was horrible, and it was a terrible thing. And could you really imagine any Republican vice president in a similar circumstance who wasn't willing to do that? I mean, even John McCain was more critical of George W. Bush when he was running in 2000 than Kamala Harris was. So, yeah, I think this shows a profound lack of courage, both on the waltz and the Kamala campaign front. You can't say that you were hamstrung by Biden. It's just not true. I mean, the vast majority of the money that came in to the campaign came in after Biden dropped out. It really was on her name alone. Now, I think she was a terrible candidate. And the fundamental flaw from the very beginning, I think we were talking about this at the time, is, why are you keeping all these idiot Biden staff? I'm like, they're terrible, right? You could spin up something new. You got oceans, $1.5 billion at your dispos. You need to really try and draw a contrast. And I think she lost. I mean, look, I don't think she ever really had a chance. Cause of Biden, but she almost certainly really lost in that view interview when she was like, can't think of anything that I would have done differently. It's like, that's it. How many times we say that here? America does not want this period. So it's just loser all the way around here.

[Krystal Ball]

They thought that the fact that she looked different, was a different race, was younger, whatever, they thought that would stand in for her being different for Biden. That was their theory. Genuinely, that was their theory. So sick. And I think to me, she should have brought in her own people. I think you're right about that. But, yeah, I mean, you can kind of sympathize. All right. We have this very short period of time. There's already a campaign in a box. I just gotta go with kind of what I got here. But the problem with Kamala has always been that she doesn't have her own political sense and judgment. And you saw this in her 2020 primary campaign. They were always changing the messaging with the seasons. As one staffer put it, she needed to. She was for Medicare for All. No, she's against Medicare for All. No, she has her own thing. Oh, I didn't answer that. I was laughing. I didn't understand the question. I changed my mind. She just. She doesn't have her own core number one and her own political gut instinct of what she should do and where she should be. So if she kept the same staffers. But she was like, guys, it's an idiotic idea for me to think that just because I'm a woman that I'm gonna be seen as different. And a break from Biden when I was literally part of this administration. That is foolish. And every poll shows that the biggest liability I have is this dude. So we gotta come up with something better than this. She could have done that with the staffers that she had, but she didn't. And again, this is stuff we talked about sort of ad nauseam during the campaign, about how when you don't have your own view of the world that you can articulate that you can make sense to other people, when you have reporters like Jeff Stein who was trying to, like, what would you actually do? And we never actually really knew what the priority would be on day one, then you're not gonna come across as authentic to people. They're not gonna believe anything you say, really. And you end up in ridiculous situations like this where Biden says, no distance, kid. And you're like, yes, sir, sure. Let me just tank my campaign and hand the country to a bunch of fascists by not separating myself for you. Another instance of sort of weak Democratic answering here. Katie Porter is running for governor in California. I like Katie Porter. I think she did a lot of good stuff when she was here in D.C. she was one of the few people she really has an understanding of, sort of like Wall street and banking, and she was pretty committed to standing up against corporate abuses. This is someone Matt Stoller has really appreciated, et cetera, too. But she gets asked this question, okay, let's say that Kamala Harris gets into the governor's race, and this is a Pod Save America interview. What happens then? And she's basically like, yeah, I'll pretty much just get out and defer to her. Let's take a listen to what she has to say.

[Sagar Enjeti]

There are rumors that the vice president may get in the race later. I saw some reporting that you said that the vice president might clear the field. And I was surprised to see that one of your advisors apparently told CNN that you wouldn't run against Kamala. Is that true?

[Krystal Ball]

Well, so listen, what I've said and what I'm gonna say again today is that I think if Kamala comes into this race, especially if she comes in tomorrow, she comes in now, it's gonna have a near field clearing effect. It's just gonna be. Well, I'm not sure who all.

[Sagar Enjeti]

There's a big field of people.

[Krystal Ball]

Some of them have said they're staying in no matter what. Right. So I think it's gonna shake up the field. I said it's gonna have sort of. That said, we got to start this process now. Kamala's going to make her decision in her own time. The vice president is owed that. That's her decision to make. And I've worked with her. I know that she's a careful decision maker. She's a thinker, and so she's going to make her decision. But in the meantime, it is full speed ahead. Voters. I'm not waiting around, and I don't think voters are waiting around. They want to know how we're going to lead. They want to make plans for what we're going to do with regard to Trump. And so I think there's a hunger for people to lead in this moment, and I'm stepping up.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But I'm like, honestly, I. What I expect from. As someone who admires and respects you as a leader and a political figure, I'm surprised you're not saying, I don't care what Kamala Harris does. I will be the best governor. Like, that's what I don't. That's what's confusing to me. Like, isn't the person that's supposed to lead this big fractured state the person who says Kamala can get in, who.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't give a fuck, I'm gonna.

[Sagar Enjeti]

If she gets in, I'll beat her.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I'm not sure that our leaders. People want to hear our leaders say.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, the way that I think you would say it, I was right. I'm not. I have to find the right district for my vibe.

[Krystal Ball]

But I do think, look, I am not waiting for Kamala Harris, and I don't think anyone should who wants to lead. I think what it means to lead is to literally step forward, right? To be willing to be at the tip of the spear in this moment. That's exactly why I'm launching. That's why I've been working on this. I am not sitting back waiting to see what Kamala does. I am not considering other races, hedging my bet. I'm gonna be California's next governor. But it would also be, I think, disrespectful to somebody who went toe to toe, month after month after month, in a grueling race against Donald Trump. And. And I saw this firsthand, personally serve California very, very ably as our attorney general, not to ack that this is somebody who would be an incredibly strong candidate. And there are practical realities that anyone faces. I mean, what is with this deference? Like, make the case for yourself. If you want to run for governor, you got to be able to say, I would be the best person. Here's why you can say, I respect Kamala, but we have a different view. And here's why I think I should be the fighter that California deserves. Like, this is not hard. And yet, you know, I mean, it reminds me of also Hakeem Jeffries getting asked about Eric Adams, who is, like, wildly unpopular in New York City. And even then, he can't say, you know, I think maybe he should resign, since he's been caught in these, like, naked corruption scandals. Like, what is with this deferential bend the knee? Avoid controversy at all costs. And they're always trying to think rather than say what they really think. They're always trying to figure out how to get the right answer. And that comes through. You can see her processing in real time like, okay, well, I don't wanna piss off this constituency, and she was this historic trailblazer, but I wanna assert myself, and it just ends up as this mess, rather than just saying, listen, Kamala Harris is gonna do what she's gonna do. But here's why I think I will be the strongest candidate for governor, and I will be the next governor of California. I just don't get it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it's like you're living in a cult. That's what it is. You're living in a cult of deference. And just imagine. And American politics is not really supposed to work that way. Now, it's a little ironic for people to talk about that on the Trump side, but, you know, to his credit, he did win. He won the primary in 2024, and he won the presidency. And so in a certain way, he's, like, earned his status. Whereas Kamala is literally the worst performing Democratic candidate on a ticket since John kerry. Like, imagine in 05 if Obama was like, well, I'll just leave it up to John Kerry. It's like, what? Why would you ever do that? They rightfully were discarded. Same John McCain. John McCain had no say over Republican affairs after 2008. Correctly in 2013, you think the Tea Party was calling up Mitt Romney and be like, hey, Mitt, let me run this one by you. It's crazy. This is one where if you lose, like I like the British model, then you're done, you're gone. You should not run for anything. Kamala. I mean, she could try in the Nixon. Nixon famously ran for governor of California and lost after he lost the presidency. But it was like a road of redemption. Maybe that's how she views her future, but I just have no idea where this Katie Porter type energy comes from, specifically the way that she positioned herself when she was here in Washington. The other sense, and maybe you know more about this in me, is that because the California Democratic Party is so archaic and is so like, literally locked down and run from the top that you have no real choice but to try and preserve your, you know, way within the system. And maybe the California Democrats there want her to run. I don't know why they would want that. Be a disaster, but I have no clue.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know either. I can't say with regard to the California political, like, landscape. It is a bit of a, like, machine state and whatever, but it's just pathetic to see. It's just pathetic to see, like, this lady has not earned this level of deference whatsoever. And Katie Porter, like, genuinely does have something different to offer. So that's what makes it extra disappointing to see this response from her last piece we have here, which is just really interesting. And again, kind of goes back to what we were saying about some of these shifts with the Democratic base and who they're seeing as leaders, the direction they want the party to go in, et cetera. I can put this up on the screen. So CNN asked this question. It says here, who do you think the leader of the Democratic Party is? That isn't exactly the question that they asked. They actually asked who best represents the values, the core values of the Democratic Party. And coming in in first place is aoc, which again. And then number two is Kamala Harris. Makes sense, given she's still just like top of mind, whatever. Then Bernie, then Hakeem Jeffries. I don't know who those people are. Then at 4%, Barack Obama tied with Jasmine Crockett, 4%. Gavin is at 2, Pelosi's at 2. Alyssa Slotkin 2, Schumer 2, Tim Walls 1. So I'm curious what you made of this saga. But I mean, you can see there's like ideology all over the place. But what you see at the top of that list with AOC is XI has been out front and very vocal and very aggressive in challenging Trump and the Trump administration. And that's what people wanna see. It's also funny because it comes on the earlier poll where you had some plurality of Democratic voters who were like, we want the party to be more moderate, but then it's like, this is who we think is moderate. You know, this is who we think reflects our values.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You know, she is just a Democrat now. I mean, she didn't want to primary people. She, she was. This is the part I don't really understand. I really believed Democratic voters would reward people who only called out Biden for his age, like Dean Phillips. I don't know why they're not doing so. Like, AOC and Bernie were two of the people who actually stuck with Biden longer than many moderate Democrats, Democrats who called him out in the future. So I guess Trump is the only thing that matters to them. I don't really understand why. I think voters should reward good political judgment in the moment. You should look to people like Nancy Pelosi and others who, look, this is ideology aside, it was good political judgment at that time to be like, this is not happening, period. Like, to be. For some of the first people to actually call Biden out for his age, I thought that that would matter more. It doesn't appear to be maybe just because of the way the news and all that is working, it could matter more in a primary. But. But looking at this, yeah, I mean, the political theory of resistance, or at least the appearance of resistance, is one that's quite popular right now. I actually think outside of all of it, the number one story to me is Barack Obama at 4%. That's where I was like, wow. Because that's how you know that the Obama psyop, which has basically lasted since 2004 when he went on the DNC stage, is officially over. You know, I was telling you this about the Michelle Obama podcast and look, I mean, it's just shocking to me that this person who is an internationally famous woman who at one point had one of the best selling books in history, has got 36,000 subscribers on YouTube and is getting like 100,000 views on her podcast episode with her brother. One of the clips she has, Crystal has 13,000 views. And it's called in my opinion, plain etiquette, where Michelle is telling us to, quote, keep your toes to yourself, lady. When's the last time you even flew on a commercial airliner? 20 years ago. It's not to dunk on a Michelle. Well, I guess part of it is, but it's just a show like that is just not where the energy is right now. Whereas these Midas guys are racking up 2.5 million views on a clip. So the Obama era is over. I mean, if anything, that might be Trump's greatest gift to us all.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, cause if you think about it, so right now you've got Elon slashing and burning through government, handing himself contracts, the richest man on the planet. You have, we're about to talk about like hundreds of people just disappeared into a foreign prison and court orders openly defied here. And in other instances as well, you have them going in now. We've already got documented instances of Social Security benefits being taken unjustly from people, including one instance where it was literally taken out of someone's bank account because they thought that she was dead and she was not dead. You've got them planning a massive tax cut for the rich, massive cuts to Medicaid. You have an all out assault on the government and the liberal order and, you know, an anti. Semitism. I'm going to talk about today being weaponized in order to crush dissent, crush free speech, crush academic freedom. And where are the Obamas? Like they have nothing to say about that. Nothing to say about it. So yeah, how could that reflect the core of what the Democratic Party base sees as happening in this moment? On the other hand, you have AOC who's out there every day. She's on Twitter, she's doing Instagram live, she's getting in people's faces, she's doing cable news hits. She is out there. And while she doesn't have any more power than anyone else in the Democratic Party in this moment, she has made herself visible and made it clear that she's as upset at what is going on as they are. And that's really what people are looking for. I mean, you know, Bernie really set the standard with going out and starting these town halls. Now you see other Democrats like starting to follow that model as well. That's why he ends up sort of at the top of this list too. Jasmine Crockett kind of comes out of nowhere to be now tied with Barack Obama in terms of who reflects the core values of the party. Because, yeah, while there is a sense of, you know, down the Road in a Democratic primary, there's going to be ideological debates of whatever. Right now. There's almost no luxury for that. It's just like this is happening. The assault is happening at a faster pace than anyone could have possibly expected. And the people who are at least showing some courage and putting up a fight, those are the people who need to lead us going forward. So it's not a surprise to me that AOC ends up at the top of that list. But I do think it's very different from how things would have been in the resistance era or even in the Biden era or whatever. She always was sort of, you know, when they did questions about who's the leader, who's the core value, who represents the core values, et cetera. She was always seen as more of, like, a fringe sort of character within the Democratic Party. And now because of the way she's asserted herself, because of the way Bernie has asserted himself, they have really sort of claimed the moment and filled the vacuum for what people are looking for.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Yes. Caveats still apply, is she doesn't have good political judgment. If you still look in the past, it's this whole, like, getting in the face of things. I mean, that's a big reason why liberals, you know, or leftists have not been very politically successful a lot of the times that they've tried to do this in the past. And there is like a huffing your own glue attitude, I think, in a lot of liberal circles where they're genuinely convinced that this is going to work.

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