Saagar Enjeti (2:28)

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Krystal Ball (2:34)

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Saagar Enjeti (2:44)

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Krystal Ball (2:53)

it doesn't help in terms of public perception when immediately after announcing in a pre edited statement where you're wearing a baseball cap and you know, something Saga would be concerned about and me too at this point, no, no tie, just, you know, at your golf club, just casually announcing that you're dragging us into another Middle Eastern war with no particular endgame and, you know, no end in sight. Naughty Americans dying in this war immediately afterwards. What do you do if you're president of the United States? Let's put this up on the screen. Oh, you put the tie on, actually. Then after announcing the war and you go to your club with all of your multimillionaire and billionaire buddies to hang out and party and celebrate some sending America's sons and daughters off to fight and die in an illegal, horrible, deadly, chaotic, disastrous war. So this was a million dollar plate fundraiser he was hosting there at Mar a Lago in the hours after announcing this war. And so you can imagine that being one example of why perhaps Americans are not feeling so excited about this administration at this point, let alone this war that we've been dragged into. But we've got some polling here now, early indications of support for this. Let's put D2 up on the screen. This is from Reuters where their headline was just one in four Americans, 25% supports US strikes on Iran. So you can see the numbers there. And of all adults, you've got about 27% in support. You've got 43% opposed. I want you guys to understand how crazy and keep these numbers up on the screen how crazy this is. I don't know if y' all have been watching cable news, but CNN and Fox in particular, oh my God, the pro war propaganda is through the roof. Many have been saying it would be hard to see how CNN can get even worse under the Ellisons But I'm sure they'll figure out how to manage that. Barry will rise to the occasion to make it even worse. But it is so bad. And in spite of that overwhelming war propaganda, you still have only 27 adults who are like, yes to this, even in the Republican Party, a majority support of 55%. Only 13% outright opposed. We got a big swat there. 32% that are, like, not sure. Democrats, only 7% support. I think they're all elected here in D.C. apparently, all 7% of those Democrats that support this. And then with the independents, you've got 19% support. Let's put the next one up on the screen to see another poll. Here you go. This is from the AP. 21% only support it in this particular poll. And a near majority, 49% oppose. 30% say that they are not sure. Let's compare this. Let's put D4 up on the screen. Shall we compare this to support for previous wars, which also ended disastrously, by the way. The Afghanistan war, there was overwhelming support because, you know, the thought, okay, there was an actual connection between Afghanistan and 9 11. Bin Laden was genuinely hiding out there. And so even Democrats, 90% were in support of, okay, let's go into Afghanistan. And even that, we see the way that 20 years later, it was a total catastrophe and just ended with the Taliban back in power. The Iraq war, you can see overall, even though there was some dissent, I was part of it. There was some dissent, but still overwhelming support. 72% supported military action in Iraq. Think about that. And now here we are today for Iran, 34%, 34% supporting military action against Iran. And that is likely to be effectively at the peak because already things are going sideways. And I want people to take note. And we're gonna do some of the. We're gonna cover some of this tomorrow. Of especially the, you know, a bunch of the Republicans are basically gonna go along with whatever Trump. You'll have some notable and very courageous dissenters. Thomas Massie, maybe Rand Paul, maybe a couple others. Okay? On the Democratic side, you have a divide. You have some people who are quite clear, no war with Iran. And then you have the bullshit process group that are like, well, he didn't brief us and he didn't make his case, and he needs to make his case to the American people. I want you all to remember who those people are. Take note of where everyone is right now, because I believe a year from now, even I don't even think it's going to take that long with the Rock it took years with this. It is going to be very quick. There will come a time when basically everyone opposes this action and sees the folly and the disaster that it ultimately is. And I want you to look and to remember who said what right now at the time when it shouldn't even be that difficult. Cuz the public opposes it. But there's a lot of money on the other side of the equation pressuring people, AIPAC being one of them, pressuring people, pressuring elected members of Congress to support this insanity. Pay attention to who they are. Do not let them off the hook. Do not fail to remind them that they were on board with this utter catastrophic disaster.

Saagar Enjeti (8:04)

Which is exactly why a war powers resolution is so important. You need to get on the record. I want it now, I want it yesterday actually, because now they're gonna try and mealy mouth their way out of this. And we need this for everybody. I mean, one of the only good things about this is that many of the people have been exposed as complete frauds. Tomorrow we'll have a whole list of all the people who said that they were against this, ran on it literally, and are now saying opposite things out of the sides of their mouth. You know why that's important? Getting people on the record and then reminding people in the future like we did to Hillary back in 2008, that is what saves you. Because look, ultimately we can only judge based on past behavior for what your decision is going to be. And yeah, as you said, it's not even that courageous to speak out right now. It's just apparently like so outside the realm of possibility for anybody on mainstream media to even think about that.

Krystal Ball (8:52)

Stand up to the donor class, that's what you're gonna have to do.

Saagar Enjeti (8:55)

It is so shocking. I mean the mainstream media and all these people, you know, CNN would always try to reach out to me to talk about Epstein or whatever when Israel or Iran, and they know, you know, oh nothing, you know, there's no incoming text messages asking me to appear on their network. Interesting, isn't it? Or even in the Epstein thing I'd be like, sure, but I'm going to talk about Israel. And then of course, you know, everything would just go away in terms of the request. That's kind of how it works right now. And I do think it's important to think about the lack of manufactured, even consent for this war. Put D3 up here on the screen. This is from the New York Times. I mean, only 21% of Americans support the United States initiating an attack on Iran. Only 21%. And you know, you talk there about history and this is where I never thought I would say this, but you gotta give it to Bush. He went, coalition of the willing. Even though it was fake, the coalition of the willing, every member of Congress was forced to vote on the question. We had months of Fox News. You don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud. You had Judy Miller and yellowcake and the famous vial that was held up by Colin Powell, the Security Council, vast majority of Americans supported it. Everyone pretends they weren't for it. They were. And whenever it comes to even think back, Vietnam, massively popular all the way up until you had people who a lot of people were being killed. And by the way, even when, I mean, I'm talking about hundreds of Americans were dying, like in the span of a month, even then, a lot of the people still bought into the propaganda and were like, oh, we need, you know, peace with honor and all this other stuff, this. They didn't even try. I mean, even Maduro, it was like 50, 50 people, mostly moved on. They're like, look, as long as there's no Americans getting killed, whatever, I don't particularly care. There's no chaos. Can't say that about this. There's chaos everywhere. And you know, part of the problem was they moved into this, I think to the extent that people paid attention. It was all news junkies. The vast, vast, vast majority of people had no idea this was happening. They don't follow carrier strike group movements. Statements from the Pentagon and Barack Ravid reporting. They just woke up on Saturday morning and they're like, oh my God. They're like, I can't believe this is even happening. And then they probably turn on their tv, there's no president to speak to them. We have a prerecorded Brandon style message. And then whenever they're worried, let's say you're a military family, I know some. And you see, that's the way it is. Do you remember we shredded Biden, Remember his press conference after those 13Americans were killed at Abbey Gate? I mean, we shredded him here. Remember when he got quiet and he was dementia ridden and leaning like this on the podium trying to analogize the death of his son from cancer to somebody getting blown up by ISIS in Afghanistan? This is up there with, oh, that's the way it is. That's the way that we talk about dead American servicemen. This is a nightmare.

Krystal Ball (11:49)

And in Paris, that was to get out of a war. This is getting us into a war. And so Casual. And I, you know, I feel like a broken record. I keep tying it back to the Epstein files. But you see, you see in the Epstein files, you see the way that they look at other humans. They don't see, they don't see you or your kids as human in the same full way that they see themselves and their class allies and their fellow, you know, Epstein class allies as full human beings. And that's why they're able to so casually send people in to fight and die in these wars. And I mean, the backdrop here is you've got people who can't afford homes who are. Prices are still way too high. You've got a full court press to develop AI that is going to eliminate many white collar jobs. The promise or the threat is eliminate all white collar jobs. That's the backdrop. Health care premiums. They didn't, you know, they couldn't extend the ACA healthcare subsidies, let alone, God forbid, actually like come up with a good healthcare plan so that people had universal healthcare like every other developed country in the world. So you've got premiums skyrocketing and you're supposed to deal with a new regime of austerity. But is there any, I mean, is there any contemplation here? Have you heard anyone say like, oh, how much is this gonna cost? Like, that was a lot of money that just got shot out of the sky and I watched, you know, fall into the ground and crash. And bur how much do these carrier strikers. What does that deployment cost?

Saagar Enjeti (13:19)

I have the numbers.

Krystal Ball (13:20)

These new service members who are being brought in. No, because austerity is fake. That's what you really should get for that. There's no austerity when it comes to the empire, when it comes to waging these wars. You can go look at the stock market today and you can see many stocks are falling. But you know what's doing really well? The military industrial complex, all the defense stocks, they're cooking. And again, you can see in the Epstein files the way that Epstein would talk to, you know, would talk to Ehud Barak, would talk to other people, he said, oh, this chaos, this war, this is great for us. This is great for us. We're going to profit off of this. We're going to make lots of money. We're going to have more power. We're going to be able to situate ourselves even better. We're going to be able to entrench ourselves even more in the affairs of the entire world. And so that's the way they look at this. So when you see this and you look at the polls, you're like, okay, only 20% of the American public supports this and you're dragging us into this. It is laying bare the fact that they do not believe, like they don't believe in democracy. And they're exposing the fact that they don't think we live in a democracy. They don't think that people get to have a say. They don't think that our opinions should matter at all. And they think that they have degraded our system enough so that they don't matter at all. That's what this tells you. That's what this action really tells you.

Saagar Enjeti (14:40)

Yeah. I think though that they also see us as cattle because they will just move on. And look, they're not wrong to a certain extent. A lot of the people who do sport are cattle. I lived in George W. Bush country In Iraq, it was 07 and you still had dead enders who were like, I support the President on the Iraq, like don't underestimate the capacity for stupidity and for cultish behavior in a significant part of the country. And that is honestly that's maybe one of the things that worries me on this. Maybe some people are awake on the question. I definitely think independents and a lot of the political energy class or like the people who are engaged in politics are especially. But I'm not gonna underestimate either a significant number.

Krystal Ball (15:20)

I mean if you have a financial crash and a deadly war, we have that. I mean look, you already have Trump in the 30s in terms of his approval rating. You are absolutely right. I will be the first to tell you that it is a cult and there are people who will never leave and it does not matter what happens, but they far from the majority. And I think even within the people who voted for Trump three times, I think you will see some slice of them at least. This is not great. And we see it in the poll numbers too with the strong support for Trump versus the eh, support for Trump. Those numbers have shifted significantly. That's true. So going into Iraq we just showed the numbers. It was 70% of the country that was on board with that to start from 20%. And things are already going sideways and we're not even hearing from the President of the United States. I don't know, I think this'll be. It's just catastrophic on every level. I hope it's just catastrophic on every level.

Saagar Enjeti (16:22)

I hope it seems them, I hope that they, I hope that they get punished beyond belief. But I'm still just. I just remember I remember Bush. I remember growing up in that. In that environment and being like, I feel like I'm going fucking crazy.

Krystal Ball (16:36)

Here's the real. I can't believe this. Here's the real thing is that I think they already know that if it's a free and fair fight, they're cooked in the midterms if it's any sort of legitimate election. And so I think that is the other calculus here. We've already seen them throw out a potential. We had that memo that came to light of them declaring a national emergency over bamboo ballots, China, interference in the elections. So they have their floating that the potential Maduro deal there was reporting on that, which seems like a fever dream conspiracy. Apparently. They really are thinking of getting Maduro to be like, yeah, I totally rigged the election from Venezuela with Hugo Chavez's ghost. You've got Tulsi doing something in Puerto Rico, you got Tulsi doing something in Fulton county. And now you have this war with Iran, where Trump also said that Iran interfered in 2020 as well. So he is looking for a way to not just mess with the elections, but declare a national emergency, move the election, I mean, really seize control of what's gonna happen here. Because I think he knows that he's electorally a dead man walking already. So I do think that is part of the calculus that's going into this, as well as you try to wrap your head around why any president would do something that is so profoundly stupid and unpopular.

Saagar Enjeti (17:53)

Yeah, but I think actually what's ironic about this is that the more unpopular he gets, he will actually increase the amount of people. If he was strong or even medium going into something like this, you would have, like, some sort of a solid foundation to be able to argue off of. I don't think that's gonna happen. I mean, look, I just talked about the dead enders. There's also a significant portion of, let's say, even. I mean, look, you had Republican senators even, who were coming out and saying that they might vote against a war powers resolution. Like, the level of weakness that you're starting to get into. You could go past George W. Bush, who was around 30% at the height of the war in Iraq, and there was an incredible amount of people who were like, all right, we gotta give in. You know, even, you know, McCain even. And all of them would criticize Trump on the campaign trail. They've got serious, serious problems.

Krystal Ball (18:38)

No, I agree with you. I mean, it's an incredible act of hubris to think that you could just. That's what I'm saying that you could just impose your will on the entirety of the American public at basically the barrel of a gun. Like even in actual dictatorships, the public still is gonna have a say at some point. You're still somewhat constrained by like what people are going to tolerate. And yeah, if you're, if you are causing a financial collapse, people are struggling to afford like basic necessities. You're threatening to take all the jobs away with AI and you're getting us into a disastrous war. You know, I think you're going to be, I think you're going to, people are not going to just go along with you also rigging and stealing the elections. I think they'll have something to say about that.

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (19:21)

Yeah.

Saagar Enjeti (19:21)

No, no, no. Okay. All right, let's get to Jeffrey Sachs, Professor. He's standing by. Are you a fraud paying American? It's a fact that one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. With Lifelock Identity Theft Protection though, if your identity is stolen, they fix it guaranteed and get you your money back. Last year the IRS flagged over $16 billion in refunds for identity fraud. That's billions of dollars that could come from your salary, overtime or second job. But this year you don't need to stay a victim. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. And if your information does fall into the wrong hands, only LifeLock has US based restoration specialists who are backed by the million dollar protection package. Because this tax season fraud paying American is something no American should have to claim. Visit lifelock.com iheartra and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% off@lifelock.com iheart Terms apply.

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Krystal Ball (21:28)

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Saagar Enjeti (22:15)

Very excited now to be joined by our friend of the show, Professor Jeffrey Sachs. Good to see you sir. Thank you so much for coming back.

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (22:21)

Great to be with you.

Saagar Enjeti (22:22)

I wish it was under better circumstances. We did of course, want to turn to you for a bigger picture of what this all means. Let's go ahead and first start with our first element. Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu saying the quiet part out loud. He says, in bombing Iran, Israel has now the assistance of the United States, my friend President Donald Trump and the US Military. This coalition of forces allows us to do what I've yearned to do for 40 years. 40 years. It's a dream that the prime minister had, despite all of the alleged pretexts about preemptive attacks, nuclear strikes, ballistic missiles. This is something that has been in the heart of the Bibi Netanyahu project. I just was wondering if you could react to that and frame your general thoughts around this entire regional war that has now erupted.

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (23:04)

I hadn't seen that quote, but if he said it, what an asshole he is. I've been saying that for years, that this is his dream, his campaign. I put it at 30 years since 1996, a doctrine called Clean Break, which was a madman's document of a madman. Bibi Netanyahu and his arch neocon extremist ZIONIST advisors in 1996, that basically was the blueprint for non stop war in the Middle East. And now Netanyahu says what I've been saying, when I've been saying it. People have sometimes scoffed, but oh, it's now I know it's a 40 year plan, not just a 30 year plan. The man is a psychopath and this is the reality of it. We have been roped into endless war by these extreme Zionists and we're now in an ever greater escalation to full regional war for the purpose of Israeli hegemony in the Middle East. Of course it aligns with the madmen in Washington who and Langley who want US hegemony in the world. But that's what this is about. They don't count how many schoolgirls are dead. They couldn't care less. That's the whole point. There's nothing in this about the dead. This is all mad men's delusions.

Krystal Ball (24:49)

Let's go and put up E2 on the screen here. So Trump is saying now he wants to talk to the Iranians. After assassinating their Supreme Leader and bombing their country and starting this war, he told the Atlantic, quote, they want to talk. I've agreed to talk, so I will be talking to them. On the contrary, though, it does not appear that the Iranians want to talk for understandable reasons, especially after we used diplomacy now multiple times in a row as a ruse in order to attack their country. But what do you make of this outreach from President Trump and also the relative silence from the administration after launching this war?

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (25:29)

Trump's crazy. He may even believe this, but he's crazy or he's psychopathic, or it's what's called the dark triad personality, extreme Machiavellianism, inability to understand anything. Murder the other side and say we love you. That's his approach. It's completely spiraling out of control. I don't think he's the only agent of this, by the way. I think this is the CIA long standing effort. It's what Netanyahu said. Again, I'm better informed this morning thanks to you. It's 40 years, not 30 years. I always put it at a 30 year effort. But we have gone to war in Libya, Sudan, Somalia, occupied Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Iran for this extremist, delusional purpose. And what have we gotten out of it? Millions dead. But we're not supposed to count the dead. Trillions of dollars of loss, chaos from Libya to Iran. I mean, Chaos. A region across the entire North Africa, Horn of Africa, and the Middle east in chaos because of this insane Zionism and the US Complicity in it and the delusions of control. How many wars will we get into? But, you know, interestingly, two points. One, the American people see through this entirely. They're completely against this. Trump. Well, to say that Trump lied is to sound like an idiot. Of course Trump lies every time he opens his mouth, but his campaign was about not doing exactly this. But he's a puppet. He's a puppet of the CIA and a puppet of Miriam Edelman and a puppet of Bibi Netanyahu. So he's a puppet or blackmailed or something. So this is one point. The American people are completely against this. And as the Gallup poll showed last Friday, the American people are on the side of the Palestinians. Both make complete sense. This is a madhouse. This is not in any remote way rational, deliberate, legal, honest, aimed at our security. It's aimed at the delusion of complete control.

Saagar Enjeti (28:40)

Yeah.

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (28:41)

And, well, yeah, you can't control the world this way. Mad Men have tried for millennia. We're just the latest in this. But it comes to a very bad end.

Saagar Enjeti (28:54)

And I think that we're seeing that all right now, especially with people like Lindsey Graham at the forefront. Why don't we take a listen to his comment about what the future of Iran should look like? Sounds a lot like what we have had in store for IR Iraq. Let's take a listen.

Krystal Ball (29:06)

In a social media post Sunday, President Trump wrote this quote, hopefully the IRGC and police will peacefully merge with the Iranian patriots and work together as a unit to bring back the country to the greatness it deserves. Is hope the plan for the future of Iran?

Professor Zhang (29:28)

No. The future of Iran is going to be determined by the Iranian people. The new Iran, whatever it is, whether

Saagar Enjeti (29:37)

it's a cleric or a representative democracy, our goal is to make sure it cannot become again the largest state sponsor of terrorism. That's a win for us.

Krystal Ball (29:47)

But is there a plan to make sure that happens? Senator, is there a plan? Does the president have a plan to guarantee that that happens?

Saagar Enjeti (29:56)

No. It's not his job or my job to do this.

Professor Zhang (30:00)

How many times do I have to tell you?

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (30:02)

Our job is to make sure Iran

Professor Zhang (30:04)

is no longer the largest state sponsor

Saagar Enjeti (30:06)

of terrorism, to help the people reconstruct a new government.

Professor Zhang (30:10)

No boots on the ground.

Saagar Enjeti (30:12)

We don't own, you know, this idea.

Professor Zhang (30:14)

You break it, you own it. I don't buy that one bit. It's in America's Interest to make sure

Saagar Enjeti (30:18)

the Ayatollah is dead. He's dead. He doesn't buy that. You break it, you own it. He says dodges the question there about any sort of plan that's currently in place. As you were saying earlier, it seems now like a literal madhouse in this government. Literally. Sir, while you were talking, I just have to read you this quote from the Secretary of Defense. This is not a so called regime change war, but the regime sure did change. This is what we're dealing with now.

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (30:44)

Currently Secretary of War, I have to correct you, we don't have defense.

Saagar Enjeti (30:48)

I said Secretary of Defense.

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (30:49)

But yeah, we have war. Well, I've spent decades, along with bemoaning Bibi Netanyahu and Clean Break, thinking that Lindsey Graham is the stupidest person in Washington, the most vile. That's a very tough competition by the way. But that man has never opened his mouth in 30 years without wanting more deaths of other people. And now he also says so clearly, no responsibility. I would like the American people to understand, I'm sure that they do. But just to clarify, we have been meddling in and destroying Iran now for 73 years. Actively. It was in 1953 that the CIA and MI6 overthrew the democratically elected and popular government of Prime Minister Mosaddegh. They did it because Mossadegh had the complete audacity to say that the oil in Iran should belong to the Iranian people. This was far too much for Allen dulles at the CIA and for MI6 who knew full well that the oil in Iran belongs to Britain and to the United States. So they overthrew him. In that case there was a quote, successful regime change operation which put in place a police state, the state led by the puppet, the Shah of Iran. In 1979 he was overthrown in a mass revulsion against decades of an American imposed police state. And this government came into power immediately. Immediately the United States armed Iraq to kill hundreds of thousands of Iranians in the Iraq Iran war. Between 1980 and 1988. Saddam Hussein was our guy. He was the CIA's guy. Of course, when the CIA is done with you, they kill you. So Saddam became the worst enemy of the United States soon afterwards, after he had done the bidding of the United States. For years since then it has been actually now I know it, since 1986, it's been Bibi Netanyahu's dream to overthrow the Iranian government. I always counted it as 1996. But the United States has been using every subterfuge Covert operation. It has been using assassinations, economic warfare, crushing the Iranian economy ever since. The Iranians have said all that time they don't want a nuclear weapon. Bibi Netanyahu, who is a psychopath, said in 1996, they're weeks away, days away, months away. And he's been saying that for 30 years. For all I know, he's been saying it for 40 years. He is a vulgar, blatant, genocidal liar. I hope I'm being clear. This is. We're dealing with something absolutely dangerous in this world that is running our country. So it's extremely dangerous. The Iranians did not want a nuclear weapon. The religious leader who they just assassinated was the one that said, no nuclear weapons, it's against Islam, so kill him. It had nothing to do with nuclear weapons. All this time. The Iranians reached out constantly to negotiate. And in 2015, they concluded an agreement with the United States, Britain, France, Russia, China and Germany. The P5 countries plus one, called the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action. And it put Iran strictly under UN supervision in the International Atomic Energy Agency. Bibi Netanyahu had a fit because he wanted to overthrow the government. He did not want peaceful relations with a non nuclear Iran. So Donald Trump, who is a puppet of our CIA, Mossad and Miriam Adelson and the rest, ripped up the JCPOA in 2018. That's the story. Then they bombed one of Iran's nuclear facilities. And by the way, during the period from 2015 to 2018, Iran stuck with the agreement, even though the United States cheated on the agreement that it signed because it was supposed to, and the US sanctions, which it did not do. Then Trump ripped it up. Then they began a campaign of assassinations. Then they began bombing Iran's nuclear facilities. And that's the story. They don't want an agreement. Last year they negotiated and then in the middle of the negotiations, bombed Iran. This year again, they negotiated and then bombed Iran. You might ask, why did Iran come back to the negotiating table this time after the falsity last time? I'll tell you why. It's a little strange, it's a little weird, but nobody behaves as badly as the United States. So it's very hard to calibrate when there is a government that says we're negotiating. When they bring in a mediator, in this case Oman, when the US negotiators, Witkoff and Kushner say, oh, we're making progress, it's hard for other people to calibrate the evil that's under it. This was A premeditated war and the negotiations are a pretext. So this is what's happening. It's amazing you don't see this anywhere else in the world. By the way, at the emergency meeting of the UN Security Council that I attended on Saturday, you see how we're in the looking glass because one. One country after another attacked Iran for its violence. Even Bahrain called it unprovoked attack by Iran. Well, it's actually easy to do the scorecard if your country hosts the US Military. First of all, it means that you also host the CIA. It means you are an occupied country. And so everyone that spoke against Iran is an occupied country by the United States. These are not independent countries. When we listen to Mertz or to Macron or to the Danes or to the British, the US Military and CIA is all over those countries and has been for decades. These are not independent voices. These are part of the vassal states of the empire. This empire is destroying itself in its bloodiness, its bloody mindedness, its murders, its wars, its debts, the trillions of dollars we're spending in this. But this is an empire that is behaving so shockingly that others actually can't calibrate. They don't understand. They don't that negotiation means we will come to murder you and that the best thing is we will murder your religious leader.

Krystal Ball (39:04)

Let me go ahead and put E5 up on the screen to your point about the Gulf allies here. So there was a Saudi analyst who went on Al Jazeera and told them, quote, america has abandoned US and focused its defense systems on protecting Israel, leaving the Gulf states that host its military bases at the mercy of Iranian missiles and drones. And we have seen some impacts throughout the region, including unbelievable images in Dubai, which is of course a playground of the global rich, where some of the luxury hotels have been hit. I can scarcely wrap my head around the level of damage, brand damage, and economic damage that will be done over the long term. What do you make of these comments and potentially reassessment that is being done here by the Saudis as they see that the U.S. s number one priority is ourselves and the Israelis?

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (39:59)

Well, I would refer them to two observations. First, by President John F. Kennedy in his inaugural address. He said, those who would ride on the back of the tiger often find themselves inside it. In other words, you ride on the back of a violent empire, you become a victim. So the Saudis have known full well they host US Military bases. The Gulf countries host US Military bases. The behavior of the United States is brazen and illegal. So this is what comes. I would also cite Henry Kissinger's famous adage that to be an enemy of the United States is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal. So these countries need to grow up, they need to understand, does the Arab world want to be a vassal of the United States? I don't think so. Does that provide them security? I don't think so. And incidentally, the damage to an entrepot like Dubai is devastating. This is supposed to be the place where it's safe to bring your family, to bring your money, to come for vacation, not to be in a hotel that is bombed. This will have a very, very long shadow on the region. But that is the miscalculation that these countries have made. They've watched the United States and Israel commit a genocide in Gaza. They were quiet because they're occupied. They think this is safe. This is not safe. The safety in our world is to speak the truth. It's not to go along with the brazen evil of power.

Saagar Enjeti (41:45)

Finally, I'm just curious for how you think we talked there about the UN Security Council. There's been a lot of big talk by the President of Canada or the Prime Minister of Canada. The new world order is changing. He immediately supports the regime change, war with Iran. You just talked here about the vassal states of Europe. For how long are their populations going to put up with this? We just did a segment about blowback, specifically across the entire Middle east, including possible terrorist attack right here on our own country. Reminiscent of many of the scenes from the war in Iraq and the so called global war on terror. Do you think this is going to be a prolonged kind of earth shaking geopolitical movement? Or is there any point at all for us to be able to pull back from the brink and Trump can just falsely declare victory and move on? Or is just the genie out of the bottle completely?

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (42:30)

I just want to point out that a momentous event last week, which seems like a different world because it is, was when the German Chancellor Mertz went to China and there were clips of him watching the Chinese robots performing. He was watching something the United States can't do, Europe can't do. He was watching a country that is at peace and that is moving forward technologically, that is investing, that is at the frontier of technology. And the United States in the meantime is mass murdering people, killing people, running a budget deficit of 7% of GDP and can't keep our goddamn infrastructure working at all. You come back to any American infrastructure, any airport, nothing works. Not the escalators not the elevators, not the walkways. Nothing works. Our government is half shut down. So the reality is we are doing ourselves in this way under this quest for global hegemony. That's the real story here. How self destructive this is by the way, how much Trump lied every word about claiming that he was going to stop this. He didn't stop it at all. He just opened up the floodgates of more killings.

Krystal Ball (43:56)

Professor Sacks, thank you as always for your insights. We're really grateful for your time this morning.

Saagar Enjeti (43:59)

Thank you sir.

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (44:00)

Great to be with you. Thank you.

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Krystal Ball (45:03)

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Saagar Enjeti (46:28)

Good to see you, sir.

Professor Zhang (46:29)

Thanks for inviting me.

Krystal Ball (46:30)

Yeah, of course. So, for people who aren't familiar with your work, I wanted to show folks that back in 2024, you made three big predictions. One, that Trump would win, two, that he would start a war with Iran, and three, that the US would lose that war. Let's take a listen to that.

Professor Zhang (46:50)

In this class this semester, I'm making three big predictions, right? First is that Trump will win in November. Second is that United States will go to war against Iran. And the third big prediction is that the United States will lose this war, which will forever change the global order.

Krystal Ball (47:16)

So obviously that last one is the only one that has not yet come to fruition is quite a stunning prediction. Do you stand by it? And what have you seen so far that leads you to sort of stand firm in that conclusion?

Professor Zhang (47:28)

So given my analysis of how the war is progressing, I think that Iran has many more advantages over the United States. The reality is that right now it's a war of attrition between the United States and Iran. And Iranians have been preparing 20 years for this conflict. In their eschatology, in their religion, this is a war against the Great Satan. They've had many practice runs. Last June was a 12 day war when the Iranians were able to examine, analyze the strike capacities of both the Israelis and the Americans. And they've had a lot of time, eight months, to prepare fully for this new attack. Through their proxies, the Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas and the Shia militias have been able to really grasp the American mentality. And now they have a pretty good strategy of how to weaken and ultimately destroy the American empire. So what the Iranians are doing is they're waging war against the entire global economy. And so they are striking the GCC countries. And not only are they striking GCC countries, American bases, they're going after the critical energy infrastructure of these bases, they blocked off the trip of Hormuz. And eventually they will go after the water desalination plants, which is a lifeblood of these nations, because they don't have fresh water supply. In fact, the water desalination plant provides 60% of the GCC's water supply. So if a drone, and you know These drones cost $50,000, if they wiped out a desalination plant in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and it's a city of 10 million people. Right. They'd be out of water in two weeks. In two weeks. And right now the Iranians have de facto closed off the Sheriff Hormuz, and the GCC gets 90% of its food

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (49:44)

from

Professor Zhang (49:46)

the strip of Hormuz. So I know a lot of you are talking about the disruptions to the global economy, but right now, the Iranians are actually threatening the very existence of Saudi Arabia, uae, Bahrain, Qatar. And why this is important is that the Gulf states are really the linchpin of the American economy. So what they do is they sell petrodollars and then they recycle the petrodollars back into the American economy through the investments in the stock market. And right now we know that the entire American economy is propped up by AI investments in data centers. And a lot of that comes from the Gulf states. So if the Gulf states are no longer able to sell oil and they're no longer able to finance this AI bubble in the United States, then this AI will burst. And with it will burst as well as the entire American economy, which is really a financial Ponzi scheme. So that's a dire situation that the markets are facing right now.

Saagar Enjeti (50:55)

Yeah, I mean, to your point, sir, an Amazon data center was literally hit in the uae. And now, of course, big tech companies, which were looking at the UAE as a major potential data center investment hub with cheap and abundant energy, probably going to be rethinking that. We also wanted to talk to you about munitions. We can put this next one up here on the screen. The United States is racing to accomplish Iran mission before munitions run out. This is specifically around interceptor math. There's a famous video just from yesterday in Israel which shows a single Iranian ballistic missile which is being targeted by some 11 different interceptors, all of which, miss, most of those come from the United States, not to mention all of the different bases, the GCC countries that you just talked about and the asymmetry of the cost. It's a million dollars for a missile, tens of millions per interceptor in some of these cases. With these munitions running out, how does that change the global picture? So you're in China, obviously much of the stocks in Asia of the United States are likely to have to be cannibalized. If this were to go on, how's that going to affect the global picture here?

Professor Zhang (51:58)

Right. So my first point is that the United States military is not designed to fight a 21st century war. Remember the military industrial complex came to being after World War II. It was designed to fight the Cold War. And the Cold War was really about muscle flexing about about who was able to send people up into space, who was the first, get the person on the moon who had the more complex missile systems. And so the entire American military strategy revolves around very sophisticated, sophisticated technology that costs a lot of money to build. And that's what the American air defense system is, is basically. And that's why we're seeing this asymmetry, as you point out, in this war where you have these million dollar missiles trying to take out these $50,000 drones. And it's not sustainable in the long term. And so what we're seeing is really the puncturing of the aura of invisibility and invisibility that sustained American hegemony for the past 20 years, especially after the collapse of the Soviet Union. And this is really a reordering of not just a global economy because this signals the collapse of the petrodollar and with it the entire US dollar based reserve currency system, but also the global hegemony of the United States. We're moving towards a multipolar world.

Krystal Ball (53:26)

Professor. This morning, Secretary of War Pete Hegseth was asked a question about potential ground troops in Iran. He refused to rule out that possibility. And he said, you know, oh well, we're not going to project to you what we will or will not do. What we don't want to rule anything out. We will do what it takes. Do you think that America will end up invading Iran from the ground since it's already becoming relatively clear they won't be able to accomplish the goal of regime change or even regime collapse using just air power alone?

Professor Zhang (53:59)

Right. So everyone says that the worst calamity that could happen in the United States is if it were to send ground troops into Iran. At the same time the United States are committed to regime change in Iran. We've never had a precedent in history where you were able to redeem change from the air alone. You need ground troops. And so unfortunately what's going to happen over the next few months is that pressure will build on America to send ground troops, especially from the GCC countries and from Israel, which are being pounded right now by the Iranians. So remember that if the GCC countries, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, uae, Bahrain, if they go, then the petrodollar goes with them. So the Americans need to protect these countries. And these countries are going to demand that either the Americans bribe the Iranians to seize and this is like five, twenty dollars in indemnity, okay, or send ground troops to wipe out the Iranian threat once and for all. And I know that there's no political will for ground troops to be used against Iran among the American people, But remember that 78% of American people was against initial strikes against Iran in the first place.

Saagar Enjeti (55:19)

Right. And one of the things that really comes into question, I think, with all of this, sir, when we're looking at the geopolitical picture and the sacrificing in much of this from the United States on behalf of Israel is kind of a question as to who and what wanted this. We were actually curious for your view on a disputed report here from the Washington Post. We can put it up here on the screen. F3 A push from the Saudis. Israel helped move Trump to attack Iran. Now, this has been internally disputed by Saudi Arabia saying that they did not push the Trump administration to attack Iran. However, this is clearly an authorized leak from our own government trying to at least lay some of the blame on behalf of the gcc. What do you make of this analysis and of this narrative that Saudi Arabia was also trying to be behind this push to bomb Iran?

Professor Zhang (56:05)

So I've always argued that both Saudi Arabia and Israel are heavily invested in regime change in Iran. In fact, Saudi Arabia sees Iran as much more of an existential crisis than Israel because remember, Israel still has nuclear weapons and Israel is a very diverse, very sophisticated economy, whereas Saudi Arabia is completely reliant on oil. And it's always had problems with Iran because Iran is a theocracy opposed to the Saudi monarchy. Iran funds and equips the Houthis, which have been antagonistic towards Saudi Arabia for the longest time. And right now the Saudi economy is suffering. It's been trying to pivot towards more of a tourist economy. That's why they brought in Ronaldo. That's why they're switching to E Gaming. That's why they're being building something called a line Neom and all these things are not working out. So they need to be able to control the oil resources of the entire Middle East. They are to survive and thrive as a nation. So I do believe that this reporting is credible, even though it does make Saudi Arabia look bad. But remember, Saudi Arabia says that they wanted peace, but they are helping the Israelis and the Americans attack Iran right now because they're allowing the Israelis and Americans to use Saudi airspace.

Krystal Ball (57:32)

So help us understand. Because it still feels to me like there are some pieces that don't totally add up. You had, in advance of this war on Iran, you had top military brass up to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff saying this is a really bad idea. You know, we are not ready for this. You know, all the math on the interceptors, that's been talked about for months at this point, and yet Trump still decided to go ahead. What is the calculus that he was making here that led him to take what you know already appears to be catastrophic actions?

Professor Zhang (58:07)

Right. Okay, so this is the key question. Why do they do this? I think there are three possibilities. Okay. And I think all three possibilities are valid. The first is that of hubris. You look at history. This is how empires behave. So the Mindoro kidnapping was quick, successful, and it was adrenaline rush for Trump, and that made him overconfident in the capacity of the American military. Okay? So hubris is a factor. And we see this throughout history. Why did Hitler invade Stalin? Because he conquered Europe really easily and he thought it was invincible. And that led to the destruction of the German army in the Soviet Union. So hubris is a factor. Then you have to look at internal political calculus where even though America does not benefit from this war against Iran, Trump himself personally benefits.

Professor Jeffrey Sachs (58:59)

Why?

Professor Zhang (59:00)

Because the Saudis and Israelis are bribing him to attack Iran. Remember that The Saudis invested $2 billion in the private equity fund of Jared Kushner, who is the son in law of Donald Trump. And the Israelis, through Mayor Adelson, have been financing Trump's local career. Right. So Mayor Adelson a few months back said that she will put up $250 million if Trump were to run a third term. So Trump is getting a lot of financial and political support from the Saudis and Israelis. Also, remember that if this war goes sideways and Trump is forced to use ground troops, he will probably get approval from Congress, and this will give him emergency war powers, which will allow him to influence the midterms. So Trump is thinking about a third term. And I think at the black box, he probably won't get it. But if there's a war going on and you can delay elections and you have emergency war powers and people rally around the flag, then he probably will get a third term. And the last factor that is very important is eschatological factor, where, if you look at the Epstein files, it's clear that we are run by secret societies. It's clear that the world is run by these individuals who have a lot of power. We don't know who they are, but they control the military. They control the national security operators. And these people, there are different names for these people. You can call them the Illuminati. And the Illuminati are composed of three major groups, okay? You have the Jesuits, who control the Vatican. You have the Sapatine Frankists, which control the modern state of Israel today. And you have the Freemasons, which control the national security apparatus of the United States. And they believe that Israel, this war in the Middle east, is key to the end times in creating heaven on earth. So it's almost like a script that they're following, even though it doesn't make any typical sense. Okay? So I would say that these three are the best reasons why this is happening.

Saagar Enjeti (61:05)

Wow. Well, sir, I hope you come back. This was very informative, I think, for both of us. We deeply appreciate your time. Thank you.

Professor Zhang (61:11)

Thank you.

Saagar Enjeti (61:12)

We went a little bit late today, so we're going to be doing the AMA tomorrow, so we'll see you all then.

Professor Zhang (61:33)

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