4/18/25: US Citizens Detained, Dem Meets With Abrego Garcia, Trump Attacks Powell & MORE!

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – Episode Summary Title: US Citizens Detained, Dem Meets With Abrego Garcia, Trump Attacks Powell & MORE! Release Date: April 18, 2025

In this intense episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar, hosts Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti delve deep into a series of pressing issues dominating the political and social landscape of the United States. From wrongful detentions of American citizens to aggressive economic policies and high-stakes political confrontations, the episode provides a comprehensive analysis of events shaping the nation.

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1. Abu Bakr’s Departure from Gaza

Timestamp: [02:25 – 04:36]

The episode opens with an update on Abu Bakr, a prominent writer and advocate, who has recently left Gaza after an arduous 18-month ordeal. Craig Melvin highlights:

“He is setting aside the unbearable, unthinkable experience that he's had... to leave Gaza for the first time in his life is must be just an unimaginable perspective.” [02:25]

The hosts express anticipation for Abu Bakr’s forthcoming insights into his experiences and the broader implications of witnessing the world outside Gaza after such prolonged confinement.

---

2. The Case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia

Timestamp: [04:36 – 27:38]

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the controversial detention of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, an American citizen erroneously held under Florida’s newly enacted state law, which criminalizes the presence of unauthorized aliens. Craig Melvin recounts the incident:

“Florida passed a law that says if you bring an unauthorized alien into the state... when Abrego Garcia was born in Georgia... speaks a Mayan language... the cops are confused.” [06:03]

Despite presenting authentic documentation proving his American citizenship, Abrego Garcia remained detained due to prosecutorial insistence and ICE orders. Public outcry eventually led to his release, but the incident underscores systemic flaws and potential abuses within immigration enforcement.

Notable Quote:

“I think the only upside is that public pressure still means something like that.” [06:02] – Craig Melvin

---

3. Republican Support for Bukele and Immigration Policies

Timestamp: [10:24 – 16:17]

The discussion shifts to Republican Congressman Tim Burchett’s endorsement of El Salvador’s President Nayib Bukele’s stringent immigration practices. A clip from a News Nation interview showcases Burchett’s stance:

“They broke our laws. They need to suffer our punishment.” [11:13]

Melvin and Ryan Grimm critique this support, highlighting the problematic nature of outsourcing American law enforcement to a foreign dictator known for human rights abuses. They argue that such measures reflect a deeper contempt within certain Republican factions for American values and the capability to manage domestic issues.

Notable Quote:

“The Republicans are outsourcing our law enforcement to El Salvador. Give me a break.” [12:55] – Ryan Grimm

---

4. Misuse of Immigration Policies Against American Citizens

Timestamp: [16:17 – 31:22]

The hosts examine the alarming trend of ICE targeting American citizens erroneously, citing cases like Lisa Anderson from Pennsylvania who received wrongful deportation notices despite never having any immigration issues. Ryan Grimm emphasizes the irony and danger of such policies:

“If ICE is profiling doctors... What does that say about ICE’s confidence in American-born people?” [16:17]

This segment underscores the broader implications of flawed immigration enforcement, where innocent citizens are ensnared by overreaching policies, highlighting the urgent need for reform.

---

5. Senator Chris Van Hollen’s Visit to El Salvador

Timestamp: [17:42 – 31:22]

Senator Chris Van Hollen’s proactive efforts to secure the release of Kilmar Abrego Garcia from El Salvador are scrutinized. Despite his constituents’ support and his own recognition of Garcia’s plight, Van Hollen faces backlash for seemingly elevating Garcia as a martyr rather than addressing the policy failures that led to his detention.

Notable Quote:

“If you don’t like the laws that are on the books, take the campaign pledges you made while you ran for office and write new laws.” [13:17] – Craig Melvin

---

6. Trump’s Critique of Fed Chair Jerome Powell

Timestamp: [39:39 – 44:09]

The episode pivots to President Donald Trump’s public criticism of Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. In a press conference alongside Italian Prime Minister Giorgio Maloney, Trump voiced his dissatisfaction:

“I don’t think he’s doing the job. He’s too late, always too late, slow.” [41:36]

Craig Melvin and Ryan Grimm analyze the potential ramifications of Trump attempting to remove Powell, emphasizing the likely erosion of market confidence and the destabilization of the U.S. economy. They cite Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant’s private warnings about the economic fallout such actions could trigger.

Notable Quote:

“If Chairman Powell can be fired by the President... it will crash the markets in the United States.” [55:21] – Elizabeth Warren (via clip)

---

7. Impact of Trump’s Tariff Policies on U.S. Businesses

Timestamp: [44:09 – 61:57]

A comprehensive analysis of Trump’s aggressive tariff strategy against China reveals detrimental effects on American small businesses. The hosts present real-world examples where tariffs have rendered products unsellable and forced businesses to shut down or relocate production overseas.

Notable Quotes:

“Thousands and millions of American small businesses, including many iconic brands, will go bankrupt this year if the tariff policies on China don't change.” [46:33] – Ryan Peterson’s testimonial

“Trump is fighting against the subsidies call and driving these companies that are driving this boom out of business.” [50:25] – Craig Melvin

The discussion underscores the lack of complementary industrial policies to mitigate these negative impacts, suggesting that without strategic subsidies and support, the tariffs are causing more harm than good.

---

8. Elizabeth Warren’s Opposition to Trump's Economic Policies

Timestamp: [53:04 – 57:26]

Elizabeth Warren sharply criticizes Trump’s tariff approach and his threats against the Fed Chair on CNBC. She argues that such actions undermine economic stability and democratic principles:

“If Chairman Powell can be fired by the President... This doesn't distinguish us then from any other two-bit dictatorship around the world.” [55:25]

The hosts commend Warren’s stance, highlighting the importance of maintaining independent economic institutions to preserve market stability and democratic integrity.

---

9. Polls and Public Opinion on Trump’s Policies

Timestamp: [53:46 – 58:44]

Breaking Points cites a CNBC poll revealing significant public disapproval of Trump’s economic decisions:

• Trump’s job approval: 44% approval, 51% disapproval
• Economy: Down 12 points
• Tariffs: Down 16 points
• Inflation and cost of living: Down 23 points

These figures illustrate a substantial decline in public support, reinforcing critiques of Trump’s handling of the economy and immigration policies.

---

10. Market Reactions and Economic Indicators

Timestamp: [60:13 – 65:33]

The hosts discuss declining business activity indexes from the New York and Philadelphia Federal Reserve surveys, drawing parallels to the economic downturn experienced during the COVID-19 pandemic. They argue that Trump’s policies are leading to increased economic uncertainty and potential long-term damage to the U.S. economy.

Notable Quote:

“If you're outsourcing your law enforcement to El Salvador... that reflects a real contempt within a significant strain of the right for American values and American capacity to handle our own problems.” [12:55] – Ryan Grimm

---

Conclusion

The episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar offers a critical examination of current U.S. political and economic challenges. From flawed immigration enforcement and international human rights concerns to destructive economic policies and threats to institutional independence, the hosts present a sobering analysis of policies undermining American values and economic stability. The inclusion of notable quotes and specific timestamps provides listeners with valuable insights and authoritative perspectives on these complex issues.

---

Notable Quotes:

1. Craig Melvin: “The Republicans are outsourcing our law enforcement to El Salvador. Give me a break.” [12:55]

2. Ryan Grimm: “If ICE is profiling doctors... What does that say about ICE’s confidence in American-born people?” [16:17]

3. Elizabeth Warren (clip): “If Chairman Powell can be fired by the President... this will crash the markets in the United States.” [55:21]

4. Ryan Peterson’s Testimonial: “Thousands and millions of American small businesses... will go bankrupt this year if the tariff policies on China don't change.” [46:33]

---

This detailed summary encapsulates the core discussions and critical insights presented in the episode, providing listeners with a comprehensive overview of the key issues addressed by Breaking Points.

Transcript

[Savannah Guthrie]

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[Craig Melvin]

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[Chris Van Hollen]

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[Emily]

Welcome to our Friday show with Ryan and Emily. Just as a reminder, for premium subscribers, this entire Friday show is available. But for those of you who are watching free on YouTube, if you want to watch the entire thing, you can go ahead and sign up@breaking points.com. if not, no worries at all. Just know that there is more content there behind the paywall. Just do us a favor if you can like subscribe and share this video and or this podcast. And so with that, let's kick it over to Ryan and Emily.

[Ryan]

Good morning. Thank you so much for joining us on another exciting Friday show. Ryan, how you doing?

[Craig Melvin]

I'm doing well. How about yourself?

[Ryan]

Good. Happy. Good Friday to everyone. We're missing Crystal and Sagar today. They'll be with us in spirit for sure. They helped come up with a lot of the things we're going to talk about today. So at least they will be with us through the elements that they have chosen.

[Craig Melvin]

Yes, exactly. We're just, we're at their. We're at their mercy here today.

[Ryan]

Yes. Now, Ryan, I know that, that you have an update on one of our favorite guests, drop site writer Abu Bakr.

[Craig Melvin]

Yes, if people might have noticed this on social media, they haven't. They should go, go check out Abu Bakr's feed, you know, after a long and agonizing decision and also then process, you know, he is. Has left Gaza. He'll. He'll have more to say about, you know, where he's going, what he's. What he's doing next. I can say that Jeremy is, is with him now. This, the story of, of, you know, get. Of getting out is one that is, you know, harrowing and that I think he'll, you know, he'll. He'll want to tell it himself. So I don't want to take anything away from that. People should also remember this is his first time ever leaving Gaza. So, you know, setting aside the, the unbearable, unthinkable experience that he's had over the past 18 months, to leave Gaza for the first time in your Life, in your 20s, and to see the world with those eyes for the first time is. Must be just an unimaginable perspective. And it, and it'll be, I think, a fascinating one because he'll be seeing the world, you know, through. Through that perspective and which I think will help us, you know, see that world in. In kind of a new way. If it was an agonizing decision that no human being should be forced to make to either, you know, stay with your family, stay with your people, stay committed to what you're doing, and quite plausibly die of malnutrition, or leave your family, leave your people and pursue the fight from elsewhere. It's a choice that I can't even imagine what it must be like to have had to wrestle with that. I'm thankful that he's safe right now.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we're excited, I think, to be able to hear more from him about how harrowing exactly that journey was. Was. Ryan. Looks like my camera just froze again. There it is. Okay, so we have a lot to get through because the case of Kilmar Abreo Garcia continued to be. There were developments throughout the day yesterday in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, but also, Ryan, there's a drop site, a job site scoop that we're actually going to start with about deportations and people having trouble with their ability to remain in the United States. We'll get into all of that. We're going to talk about some market updates. Elizabeth Warren actually did battle on CNBC yesterday. So we have some cool clips from that and more from Bernie and AOC's war on the Democratic Party or The Democratic Party's war on Bernie and aoc. And we'll be joined by the author of the squad for that blog. So you don't want to miss it. That's, of course, Ryan Grimm. All right, Ryan. Yeah, I can put this drop site element up on the screen. This is a scoop that you guys got yesterday.

[Craig Melvin]

I would call this a Huffington Post level scoop in the sense that it wasn't ours. A terrific reporter, Jackie Annos for the Florida Phoenix has been tracking.

[Ryan]

Oh, I see. Okay.

[Craig Melvin]

Has been tracking this story. But what we used to do it so effectively at the Huffington Post, in which we still do. Which we still do with our social media feed, is we'll try to elevate things that the rest of the national media is missing. And the media had missed this. The story is wild, and I guess it has a good ending at this point. Juan Carlos Lopez Gomez, who was at the center of it, was eventually freed late yesterday. But effectively what happened. Florida passed a law that says that if you bring an unauthorized alien into the state of Florida, that is a state crime on top of it being a federal crime and a matter for ice. And so this guy, Lopez Gomez was driving from Georgia, or he was in a passenger seat coming from Georgia to Florida. They got pulled over and he didn't speak English. And so they arrest him and hold him. Now, it turns out he was born in Georgia. When he was one, he moved to southern Mexico and basically grew up there. And he grew up speaking a Mayan language, I think it's called. People can correct me on that. It's a very common language in Guatemala and southern Mexico. And obviously it has been spoken on this continent for, I guess, probably thousands of years at this point, which is, let's underscore the. The irony here of, you know, you're here, speak English. It's like, no, but England is a. Is an island that's many thousands of miles away from here. This is a language that's been spoken here for thousands of years. Setting that aside, the cops are, like, confused by the situation. At best. They arrest him. He gets his. He gets his day in court, and his mother shows up with his birth certificate and his Social Security card, which, okay, Florida cops made a mistake, let the guy go. The Florida prosecutor insists on holding him and says that there is also an ICE order that he be held because now Florida is cooperating with ICE on all of these matters. And the judge in the case, she holds up the birth certificate. She holds it in the light. She's like, I see the Watermark. This is an authentic birth certificate. This is an authentic Social Security card. This is an American citizen. But I'm a state judge, the prosecutor and ICER insisting that this man continue to be held. And so I have no authority to release him. It was only then after there was a huge outcry and this incident kind of took on viral velocity that that they. That they announced that they were going to be releasing him. Now, what if they had decided in that time to ship him to El Salvador? Like, you know, they. And then they could say, well, we made a mistake. It turns out that he is a citizen. This was an authentic birth certificate. That's our bad. We made a mistake. We acknowledge that we made a mistake. But who are we to tell Bukele what to do with people that are in his custody? There is no gap in the legal logic that applies to Abrego Garcia, that they're applying to Abrego Garcia. That wouldn't apply to this American citizen here. So hopefully this is the end of it for Lopez Gomez. But, you know, it's only April and they're already, you know, they already had detained an American citizen and it'd be one thing if it was a mistake and okay, sorry about this. Once they saw his birth certificate and Social Security card from his mother and they still insisted. It's one thing is the judge is powerless. The prosecutor was not powerless. ICE was not powerless. They insisted on pushing through the evidence in front of their face that he was an American citizen and insisted on continuing to detain him. The. I guess the only upside is that public pressure still means something like that. That is. That's a hopeful sign. But I don't know. Did you see this circulating on the right or did this happen too quickly to.

[Ryan]

No, I didn't see it circulating on the resolve. No, I didn't see it circulating on the right at all. But before we get into. Actually, I think this is a good segue into the clip of Tim Burchett that we wanted to play. Because before we get into Abrego Garc and the dangers when you start treating American citizens in this way. I want to roll this interview from Tim Burchett. He's a Republican congressman. Probably have seen him on cnn. He does that all the time. But this time he's on News Nation talking about whether or not American citizens, as the president has floated, should go to places like CECOT in El Salvador. So let me pull this up.

[Chris Van Hollen]

And some are wondering, though, if it's a slippery slip. What's your reaction to President Trump suggesting.

[Savannah Guthrie]

That homegrown criminals could be sent to El Salvador next. American citizens, they're criminals.

[Craig Melvin]

They broke our laws. They need to suffer our punishment. Look, I don't want Donald Trump teaching my daughter's Sunday school class, but dad got my, like, him in the White House because he understands the rule of law. I feel like, and America is sick of this stuff.

[Ryan]

Okay, so, Ryan, I, I, Burchett basically said, they're criminals, they should follow our laws. And I mean.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah. Did he listen to the question? Like, I don't.

[Ryan]

That's what I was just gonna say. But either way, it's.

[Craig Melvin]

The question is, should Americans be sent to a dungeon in a foreign country? You would listen to the question.

[Ryan]

Well, yeah, but he, I, Yeah, exactly. He did the sort of thing that Republican congressmen often do when asked about Donald Trump, which is just sort of deflect and move on to your sort of general talking point. I don't want him teaching my daughter Sunday school class. But, you know, he's right for the American people. And it just, it's so the reason I wanted to talk about this clip in that context. To your point, Ryan, an American citizen gets sent to El Salvador, and lawyers can't get in touch, and it's up to Bukele to bring people, unless we want to do, like, a military invasion of El Salvador. I, it's just the things that they're playing with here are so, like, they're just so disturbing. And one of the other reasons I want to talk about this, which is the, the some people on the right's Bukele fetish is so weird. And I think that.

[Craig Melvin]

Don't they know he's Palestinian?

[Ryan]

That is Trump's favorite insult. Yeah, but it's not, I mean, it's not inexplicable and it's not everyone, but it is so weird. Like, we can take care. We have our own law enforcement. Do we not believe that we're, you know, on the right? Do we not believe that we're the greatest country in the world? Like, do we need to be outsourcing our law enforcement to El Salvador? Give me a break.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah. To me, it reflects a real contempt within a significant strain of the right for the American values and American capacity to handle our own problems. I think, I think you're right. Like, and you even see it reflected slightly in J.D. vance's fighting with Zed and everybody else on Twitter over the last few days, where he keeps throwing his hands up and saying, what do you want us to do? You know, Biden let in millions of people illegally. What. What do you want us to do? It's like, well, if you don't like the laws that are on the books, then take the campaign pledges that you made while you ran for office, take them to Congress and write new laws. Like, you already, the Democrats already show and you're like. And then you hear push. Oh, the Democrats won't vote for it. Well, then, you know, get rid of the filibuster if you want. You have, you have the votes. Also, Democrats have shown they're. They're willing to be utterly spineless and give you whatever you want. On the question of immigration, you know, the Lake and Riley Act, I don't know, allows immigration authorities to go back and deport anybody who has been charged with a crime. Charged. Accused. That's it. Just charged. There, there. You don't even need to have due process. That's just process. All you have to do is write up a charge and Democrats rubber stamp that for you. So you're telling me what the. This weak little opposition party that Republicans can't find a way to use America's system of government to create the kind of process that they believe is a just way to, you know, respond to what they see as the injustice of Biden's immigration policy. Like, if you don't, if you don't even think that you have the capacity to do that as a governing majority and you have to outsource it to this tin pot dictator in El Salvador, don't you have some sense of shame? Like, don't you have any self respect?

[Ryan]

Like, I find it a little bit emasculating, to be honest.

[Craig Melvin]

Right. Yes.

[Ryan]

For these Republican congressmen to go to the prison and pose with, like, Bukele's prisoners, it's just awful.

[Craig Melvin]

It is. It's really embarrassing. Yeah. Don't you have, do you have no dignity that this is like, this is your king?

[Ryan]

Yeah, it's. It's ridiculous.

[Craig Melvin]

He looks good in sunglasses. Like, but is that your bar?

[Ryan]

He looks like he's like a theater kid when he's putting his sunglasses on.

[Craig Melvin]

That's true. I was trying to be generous to him, but you're right.

[Ryan]

But in all seriousness, let's get into some of this Bukele, Abrego, Garcia stuff, because also, it's just like the Trump administration is pejoratively referring to Zelensky as a dictator. I actually think there's some meat on those bones. You can make that argument pretty well. Bukele walks around calling himself a Dictator, Right.

[Craig Melvin]

A cool dictator. Don't they call himself a cool dictator?

[Ryan]

World's coolest dictator. Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

Nobody, by the way, who's cool has ever called themselves cool. Just let's be clear about that. Before we go to Abrego Garcia. Let's put it real quickly, this, this like lunatic thing that's going on in not just Pennsylvania, but you've got all these American citizens who are reporting and, and you've got their immigration attorneys vouching for the fact that these are all authentic. They're just get like, ICE is now spamming people, telling them to get out of the country, including a bunch of American citizens. This one here, Lisa Anderson, born in Pennsylvania, you know, said that she's never had any interaction with immigration ever. And she got an email telling her, like, this doctor, like, telling her get out of the country. It would be, it would be ironic if ICE is profiling doctors, like, assuming that if you're a doctor, you weren't born here in this country. Like, what, what would that say about ICE's confidence in American born people here? Like, oh, oh, you're a doctor, you're probably an immigrant. I think if that's the situation where ISIS found itself, I think we have a lot bigger problems than the number of people that Biden led into the country.

[Ryan]

So Chris Van Hollen, Maryland Democrat Senator, obviously had a hell of a day yesterday. Let's get into some of that.

[Chris Van Hollen]

So first, he does this podcast make you happy? Of course it does. That's why you're here. But it only comes out once a week for happiness, every night. You need Adam and Eve. Yes. I'm talking about sex toys. It's cool. It's cool. You have earbuds in, right? Adam and Eve, America's most trusted source for adult products, has been making people very happy for over 50 years with thousands of toys for both men and women. Just go to AdamAndEve.com now and enter code IHEARTRA for 50% off. Almost any one item, plus free discreet shipping. That's AdamAndEve.com, code iHeart for 50% off.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Every morning brings a fresh new energy.

[Craig Melvin]

This is today.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And no matter what the day holds, we come to the Today show for all of it.

[Craig Melvin]

When things are tough, we talk about it. When there's something to figure out, we dig into it. And when there's joy, we celebrate it.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Because today is where it's all happening. We get the best start to every morning because we start it together.

[Craig Melvin]

Watch the Today show with Savannah Guthrie and Craig Melvin. Weekdays at 7am on NBC.

[Elizabeth Warren]

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[Ryan]

Had been denied access into seacot. So that's the maximum security massive prison that according to a Wall Street Journal report, I think that just came out yesterday, Bukele is planning to expand, basically double in size. The sourcing was basically Kristi Noem to the Wall Street Journal story saying that Bukele is planning and really because already 1 in 57 Salvadorian citizens is locked up. It sounds like. And this is the dots that the Wall Street Journal connected. That's going to be deportations, deportees from the United States. That's sort of the plan, the growth industry. Yeah. So if we are working with El Salvador to do that, so many more questions to be asked. We'll see how that develops. But Chris Van Hollen tried to get in yesterday because that's where Abrego Garcia is being held and that did not go well for him. So then we got, no, we received actually this picture. Let me share this one. Kilmar Abrego Garcia. This is a tweet from Bukele. Miraculously risen from the, quote, death camps and quote, torture, now sipping margaritas with Senator Van Holland in the tropical paradise of El Salvador. Ryan reaction to this?

[Craig Melvin]

I mean, on the one hand, you, I think this is like Chris Van. We live in a cynical age. But I think Chris Van Hollen deserves, you know, some serious credit. Whether you agree with him or disagree with him. Like he, he saw what he believed to be an injustice that was being carried out against his constituent. And if you don't think that a resident counts as a constituent, you can count his wife, who is his constituent. And he went down to El Salvador to try to write that injustice. Van Hollen has an interesting backstory, like deep, kind of what you would call deep State connected. Both his mother and father worked in either the State Department or the CIA. Van Holland himself was actually born in Pakistan while, while his, while his, while his parents were like stationed over there. He was a Senate foreign Relations staffer before becoming a senator. And he and Peter Galbraith kind of famously snuck into northern Iraq after Saddam Hussein's 1991 kind of attack on the Kurds. If people know the history of this, it was this kind of almost Genocidal attack on an uprising in northern Iraq where he used. Where he used weapons of mass destruction against them. And Van Hollen snuck into northern Iraq, through Syria, through Turkey, I mean, and. And secreted it out, an enormous tranche of evidence to, like, validate the claims that were being made that. That. That Saddam Hussein had done this and had used these chemical weapons against the Kurds, who people kept calling his own people. He gassed his own people. Kurds do not like it if you would call. Call them Saddam Hussein's people. So this is. This is a guy who has work, worked within the system, and he's part of the system, but he's always been willing to, like, take risks as well. And so I think the fact that. The fact that he pressured Bukele not just to meet him, but to get him out of the prison certainly undermines Bukele's and Trump's claim that he can't do that. What. What Bukele and Trump were leaning on was, too bad. This is a. This is a prison for terrorists. And, you know, you go in and you. You come out in a box like, that's it. There's no way out. And, you know, you still have JD Vance online saying, look, the guy deserves to be deported. Continuing to allied the issue, which is, should he be held for life in a. In a prison notorious for its, like, unspeakable conditions, which is a different question than should somebody be deported from one country to another? What did you. What did you make of. It feels like the right is almost kind of enjoying this. Like, that. They think they're winning this.

[Ryan]

Well, I mean, so, Chris Van Hollen, I think there's. I think what he did was legitimately, personally brave, like, physically brave. Um, but I think he is not walking the fine line between treating Abrego Garcia as a victim and a martyr. And I think Abrego Garcia is a victim of a bad policy by the Trump administration. I think the right is significantly downplaying how grave of a quote, unquote, mistake it was to just say, whoops, sorry.

[Craig Melvin]

He had this withholding, literally, like Bukele said. Whoopsie.

[Ryan]

Oh, he said that about the Venezuelan plane. That was about.

[Craig Melvin]

Oh, that's right.

[Ryan]

He may have been. Abreco Garcia actually may have been on the plane.

[Craig Melvin]

He's probably on that plane. Yeah, because he was part of that deportation.

[Ryan]

Yeah, yeah, he may have been on that plane. And the. So anyway, all that is to say that is. I mean, it is not just a minor error. That is a significant error. He had the withholding order. He was, you know, in a legal process with our country and was just sent somewhere. Court said that he could not be sent to the Trump administration, did nothing to rectify it, and basically laughed the entire way. That was a huge mistake. I think Van Hollen is creeping into. Significantly creeping into to martyr territory. I think politically, we'll. I'll get to the substance in a second. I think politically, it looked pretty. I think the White House got them when they brought the mother of the woman who was the girl who was killed in Maryland to the White House press briefing. I think that was really a brutal look for Chris Van Holland. I think you disagree.

[Craig Melvin]

Right? Yeah. So. Right. And so the hit was that there was a murder victim in Maryland and Van Hollen had not called the mother. Bad news about Maryland. A lot of people get murdered in Maryland, and it would be good if every senator called every parent of every murder victim. The strong implication from the White House there was that Kilmar Albergo Garcia had killed this.

[Ryan]

No, no, no, no.

[Craig Melvin]

I think what's. Like, what. What exactly is the.

[Ryan]

The mom. The mom was saying, you are exerting all of this effort to bring home this man who was in the country, who crossed through the country illegally and was deportable, not deportable to El Salvador, but was deportable. And you didn't devote enough attention to the problem that led to my daughter's death. That was the contention. I think that is. I think that hits home with a lot of people. That's just the politics of it, the substance of it.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

I think Van Hollen is treating him more as a martyr than a victim, and I think he is a victim, but because you're a victim doesn't mean you have to be sort of treated as someone who's like a martyr in and of itself. Now, that said, the Trump administration's position on this is absolutely insane and was also not good for the Trump administration. So it's not like the. Everyone's a. It's not like there are any. I don't think there are any real winners here at the end of the day.

[Craig Melvin]

And I think it is. It is. It is always difficult in politics to stand up for a principal if the. If your case is not, you know, absolutely perfect. Yeah.

[Ryan]

Well, we have Jesse Waters talking about this. Did you see this clip, Ryan?

[Craig Melvin]

No, let's. Oh, I did. I did see this. You want to roll this? And then we talk about.

[Ryan]

Yeah, because you were just getting into this argument that he starts making here. Here we go.

[H]

Jesse, you have to have a victim that is pure. You can't have a Floyd, you can't have a Smollett, you can't have a Garcia. Your example of victimhood has to be a sympathetic victim, not someone who beats his wife and traffics humans.

[Ryan]

And so his wife did get. Successfully get a temporary Abrego. Garcia's wife did successfully get a temporary restraining order with really awful allegations of violence towards her. But Ryan, to the point that you were making, when our courts are violated, it's unsympathetic victims that you sort of bring out the principled amongst lawmakers, elected officials and the political class.

[Craig Melvin]

Right, Right. And for, for Jess, by the way, on the, on the, on the domestic violence, though, his, his wife has since come out and said that she had previously been in a, in a, in a violent relationship and that she got into a fight with Kilmar that did not turn violent at all. And in order to, and because of the trauma that she'd been through before, she kind of made up some of that stuff so that she could get a, have a restraining order, like, ready to go in case she needed it. Like, that's what she's, that's what she says. Now, the irony of Jesse Waters now being a believe all women like me too supporter, like, he has finally found.

[Ryan]

He accepted those right off.

[Craig Melvin]

He has finally found allegations against a man that he is like, like immediately willing to accept. You know, just, wow, what a coincidence that he's become this, like, me too champion. But yeah, you're right. Like when you're standing up for a principle, you have to stand up for it. Like, no, no. No matter what. And even, even if, even if the person isn't perfect. But on the other hand, it does, you know, doesn't does seem like he's like that bad a guy, according to his wife. Like, she kind of, you know, she, you know, she shouldn't have, she should not have done that. Like, you should not make up allegations. Now maybe now she's saying that now either way, none of it means that the Trump administration should be allowed to ignore a court order and send somebody illegally to a terror dungeon, a torture dungeon. And that's what, that's what somehow keeps getting missed in this conversation. Like, okay, look, J.D. vance, nobody would, there would be some people complaining. But if you just deported him to El Salvador and you violated the court order about that, he can't go to El Salvador. But he were living with his parents in El Salvador and he was at some risk because of the gang. But then on the other hand, Bukele has probably crushed a lot of the gang that, that was intimidating him in the past. If that was the situation, it wouldn't be an international story. I, it would be a, it would be the Trump administration ignoring a court order, which would be bad and which should be pushed back on, and the courts should take that up as well. But it would not be captivating the imaginations of the world if he weren't in a dungeon, the likes of which are just, like, impossible to contemplate. You know, sleeping, you know, fluorescent lights 24 hours a day on a metal, you sleep on a metal sheet with no mattress. You're just fed beans and rice to eat by hand. Presumably there's just, you know, violence at all hours because you, you know, there's a decent number of violent people in there already. And now they're all absolutely losing their minds in this situation. Just absolutely horrifying and a place that nobody's expected to leave alive. If that, that's where he was sent. And that keeps getting lost.

[Ryan]

Well, and, you know, again, if the Trump administration had deported him with like, actual. In compliance with that withholding order, or they had gotten the withholding order removed, and Bukele accepted his own citizen and did what he wanted to do to his own citizen, it's totally different than us making a mistake and then allowing him to fester in the prison because they're saying, oh, we can't get right.

[Craig Melvin]

But at the same time, like the Bush administration used to rendition, you know, before it started torturing people on its own, it would take people and send them to Egypt, and oftentimes there's evidence that CIA officials would go along with them and would be part of these or observing these interrogations. So they would take people and they'd send them to torture chambers in Egypt or Syria actually, where they would be then tortured on behalf of the United States. Those were called extraordinary renditions was the term that Cheney came up with for them. It was decided that, no, you can't do that. Like, that's insane. Like, if you're doing that, that's not a get out of the Constitution free card. Like, we still are against cruel and inhumane punishment. Like, we're like, that's, that's, that's unconstitutional. And there's no workaround that says, oh, well, we're going to outsource it. So if we knew, so if we were going to send him to El Salvador and knew that Bukele was going to torture him as A result, then we, we could not do that. What we could do is you could deport him to Mexico.

[Ryan]

Yeah, they absolutely could have done that.

[Craig Melvin]

All you have to do is call Mexico and ask.

[Ryan]

But the problem now, but with JD.

[Craig Melvin]

Vance's point is that's annoying. I don't want to have to do that.

[Ryan]

No. I mean, he has a. So that then results in us. And if you're Mexico, you're, you're not the American court system. You don't, you don't know whether people who are being deported actually are gang members or aren't gang members. And so then you have the United States saying, hey, we'd like to dump some of these suspected gang members into Mexico because they were in our country illegally, they were deportable, they didn't have citizenship. And we are now trying to do, quote, unquote, mass deportations because the Biden administration let a net, according to the New York Times, 8 million people into the country over the course of three, four years. If you say to Mexico, we, we have to, you know, maybe just, you know, 500,000 over the course of the next four years, we don't know for sure. That's. That is genuinely a really difficult thing to do. And this is where the Trump administration is going to hit an absolute brick wall. And I think they've already realized that they've hit the brick wall because now, and I say this as somebody who thinks that there is a significant problem here and there. I don't know what mass deportation means because it doesn't have a number, but there are a lot of people in this country who, I don't think some of them are decent and hardworking and don't deserve to live in the shadows without an answer on their citizenship for years and years. I don't think that's good for anybody. And so now they're in this situation where it's like, well, you have all of these people from Venezuela, Marco Rubio, we like, like Venezuelans fleeing communism. That's like your whole thing, Cubans. What are you going to do with people who are, like, in these situations? You can't send them to Venezuela, you can't send them back to Cuba. So what are you going to do?

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah, and I think you're breaking up for a second. But, you know, I, I interviewed the Venezuelan foreign minister a little a while ago, and under the Biden administration, and, and he had said, or basically suggested that, look, if we, if we can normalize relationship, normalize relations with the United States, again, you lift these Sanctions, you know, get, get back to a normal way of doing business. We can take, we can take a ton of these Venezuelans back into Venezuela. The same would be true of, of Cuba. The same would be true of Haiti. Like, we've destroyed these countries, created this mass exodus, and now we're like, oh, gee, there's nothing we can do with these people.

[Ryan]

The Venezuela point isn't a bad argument for Trump's perspective because, you know, he loves being the historic deal breaker or the deal maker. Not breaker, deal maker. And this idea of like a generational thaw in the relationship with Venezuela in order to accept, I mean, tons of Venezuelan migrants that he surely wants to sweep up and quote, mass deportations. I don't know. He's, he's not boxed in like a President Marco Rubio would be, but he certainly has Marco Rubio as the Secretary of State and people who see the issue like Rubio does surrounding him. And that's the very traditional Cold War conservative perspective on total, that Ronald Reagan actually violated to criticism for a lot of people of total non cooperation and like non contact basically with these types of countries. And so if Trump breaks that in order to get his migrants supported, that'll be interesting.

[Craig Melvin]

I don't see it happening, but I would love to be wrong. My favorite thing is to be wrong in a good direction. So let's see. Last thing, I think. Go ahead.

[Ryan]

I was gonna say, I've told people who I know who work on these issues that it might not be an idea, a bad idea to talk to Trump about Cuba.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah. I mean, come on. Yeah. Or I mean, they're just trying to create a failed state. That's the current, the current policy is let's create a failed state and see what happens.

[Ryan]

He wants to do a Riviera in Gaza. Let me tell you, Donald Trump, what you could do with Havana.

[Craig Melvin]

Yes. He can get his mob buddies over there. We can get the band back together. Right. Last thing before we move on this. There's a new poll out that shows that the American people, like, by a very, very wide margin, are just not supportive of this idea that we should be deporting students on behalf of Israel on behalf of like, you know, for the, for simply expressing support for Palestine. By a wide margin. 54 to 23% oppose deporting green card holders. 52 to 26 oppose deporting student visa holders. That's, that's a 2 to 1 margin with, you know, you've got a quarter of the people in the middle saying, we're not sure. So it's, you know, there aren't a lot of issues in the US that are 2 to 1, but this is. But this is one of them.

[Ryan]

And we do have one thing.

[Chris Van Hollen]

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[Savannah Guthrie]

Every morning brings a fresh, new energy.

[Craig Melvin]

This is today.

[Savannah Guthrie]

And no matter what the day holds, we come to the Today show for all of it.

[Craig Melvin]

When things are tough, we talk about it. When there's something to figure out, we dig into it. And when there's joy, we celebrate it.

[Savannah Guthrie]

Because today is where it's all happening. We get the best start to every every morning because we start it together.

[Craig Melvin]

Watch the Today show with Savannah Guthrie and Craig Melvin, weekdays at 7am on NBC.

[Elizabeth Warren]

At Ameca Insurance, we know it's more than a life policy. It's about the promise and the responsibility that comes with being a new parent, being there day and night and building a plan for tomorrow, today for the ones you'll always look out for. Trust amica life insurance. Amica empathy is our best policy.

[Ryan]

Lastly, as well, which is just that Donald Trump was asked about compliance with the courts yesterday and his presser with Georgia Maloney. So let's go ahead and take a listen. Will you take steps to return Kilmar Abrego Garcia to the United States and put him in front of a judge?

[I]

Well, I'm not involved in it. I'm going to respond by saying you'll have to speak to the lawyers, the doj. I've heard many things about him and we'll have to find out what the truth is.

[Ryan]

So, Ryan, the reason I thought that was useful just as we're closing out the segment is I was scrolling through Bukele's Twitter just now and he's retweeting things saying that he confirmed that Abrego Garcia is staying in El Salvador. People may have seen the Bukele tweet saying he now has the privilege of Staying in El Salvador Door. And on top of that, Bukele was tweeting things about how he's been trolling Democrats. And so it's like, you just like Trump is now, like, excusing himself from the conversation and just, you know, what is the Taylor Swift line? I'd very much like to be excluded from this, this narrative or this conversation. That's what he's, he's doing. A couple days ago, he was sitting in the exact same spot, very much wanting to be included in the conversation.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah. Trump famously respects the independence of the Department of Justice, and so he's not gonna. Not gonna get involved in those affairs.

[Ryan]

Well, let's go to another significant quote from that press conference as we move over to the markets. This is Donald Trump. A lot of news yesterday on the Fed front. So much to break down. Let's start with Trump being asked about Jerome Powell. He had a lot to say about Jerome Powell in this press conference yesterday where he was sitting beside Italian Prime Minister Giorgio Maloney. So here's Trump on that determination of Jerome Powell cannot come fast enough. He says he won't leave it, even if you ask him to.

[I]

Oh, he'll leave if I ask him to. He'll be out of there. But I don't think he's. I don't think he. I don't think he's doing the job. He's too late. Always too late, slow, and I'm not happy with him. I let him know it, and if I want him out, he'll be out of there real fast, believe me. Go ahead, please.

[Craig Melvin]

Question?

[I]

Yeah, question.

[Ryan]

All right, Ryan, reaction.

[Craig Melvin]

Yes. So the markets are, you know, sending a signal that if, if Trump, you know, forcibly removes the. The chairman of the Fed, that they would, they would, they would lose that much more confidence in the American economy. Like the u. The US Economy is the envy of the world, and it is the kind of place where people, you know, try to find safety and sanctuary because it is understood to be stable and to follow the rule of law because it is very. It is hard around the world to find. Like the Chinese stock exchange, for instance, would be doing a lot better relative to ch. Chinese economic capacity if there was more faith from international investors that the investments were safe and that rule of law was followed. So if, you know, he's already taken a huge hammer to the idea of the stability of the American economy, if he goes and throws out the Fed chair in order to kind of prop up his tariff policy, what that would do is it would be another signal to Wall street, which is currently kind of somewhere in the stage of denial or anger about the tariff policy. Like Wall street is still desperately hoping that this guy can't be serious. He's like, in 90 days, he's, please tell us he's not coming back and trying this again. And if he pushes out the Fed chair, that would be a signal that, oh, no, no, this guy is deadly serious. And he thinks that if he can just get control of the monetary flow, he can, if he can mess with that spigot, then he's got, then, then his tariff policy is going to have some, some real staying power.

[Ryan]

Right. And you're echoing Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant. This is what's on the screen right here. This was a Politico story. Besson has been privately underscoring that axing Powell would feed instability in the market, sources say, and Trump is also aware of the stakes. That means that though Trump is mad again at Powell, his job looks safe for now. Sorry to interrupt. I just, you had Scott Besant sitting there very stif in the press conference as Donald Trump was making those comments. And Besant seems to be having a lot of his own perspectives taken very, very seriously. That's a lot of the reporting that Trump is leaning on Bessant heavily right now. Both Besant and Latin. Maybe it's like a good and bad angel on the shoulder type dynamic. But this is the argument that you were just making is apparently the argument his treasury secretary is making to him.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah, if I agree with Trump's treasury secretary, then it should, maybe he's got.

[Ryan]

A great treasury secretary.

[Craig Melvin]

Yes. So let's, you know, he also defended his, I can pull this up here. He also defended his tariff policy to Maloney. Let me, let's get this answer about.

[Ryan]

Tariffs and what he planned to do going forward.

[I]

No, tariffs are making us rich. We were losing a lot of money under Biden. Trillions of dollars, trillions on trade. And now that whole tide has turned. We're making a lot of money. We're taking in a lot of money. Don't forget we're taking in 25% on cars, 25% on steel, 25% on aluminum, 10% baseline.

[Craig Melvin]

And so the first estimates came, came in well under what, what Trump was expecting. Right. Apparently, $500 million has been collected through the tariff policy so far, which is, you know, it's just, just a complete pittance, just kind of like laughable in the face of the amount of money that has moved and changed hands. And we're talking about Trillions of dollars. As he joked, you know, Charles Schwab made 2.5 billion through some shady insider trading in one day. So the entire American people have just gotten a fifth of that. Sounds like we're, sounds like now we're really getting ripped off.

[Ryan]

Well, and in this grand cost benefit analysis, we're starting to get some examples of people posting. Actually this is one man who posted an example of what the tariffs actually looked like. So he says, I got hit with my first. This is Aaron Rubin. My first 20% tariff out of China shipped before that jumped to 1 45%. I included the bill from CBP below. It's called the CN/HKE O20 Duty. The product isn't worth selling with 145 tariffs. So despite selling over 1 million of this SKU in my tiny E Com business and customers being fairly happy, I will be discontinuing this product. And there's another example. This is Ryan Peterson. Two of our American customers, devastated by the tariffs, gave up and sold themselves to sell themselves to their Chinese factories in the last week. And he posted, I believe, an entire thread of examples. Yeah, thousands and the millions of American small businesses, including many iconic brands, will go bankrupt this year if the tariff policies on China don't change. He says the manufacturers in Vietnam and elsewhere can't be bothered with small batch production jobs typical of small businesses supply. It just keeps going down the line, basically explaining, he says when they die, it may actually be the final victory for the Chinese manufacturers. They scoop up brands that took decades to build through the blood, sweat and tears of some of the most creative entrepreneurial people in the world. American brand builders are second to none worldwide.

[Craig Melvin]

Right. Yeah, the, the, the deal that we had stitched out with China so far is that like we had the ip, we came up with these ideas. We've got the executives working the nice cushy jobs and we want to reduce our costs and you know, bust our unions. And so we're going to ship the production over to China. And what Trump is going to do, he's not going to bring the manufacturing back to the United States. What's going to happen is that the Chinese company that makes the thing was always a threat. Like that's the, you, the similarity throughout history is the kind of guards that organize themselves around an emperor or a president or a dictator. Like, like those guards are always the biggest risk of actually taking power because they're like, wait a minute, like, why are we protecting this princeling? We could actually just. We're the ones with the weapons, let's just take power. The parallel is in China you had all these manufacturers who are like these executives over in Los Angeles are not that smart. Like, okay, they came up with the, the name for this, this, this handbag. But we're the ones that make it and we aren't we. All we have to figure out how to do is just sell it to people around the world. The deal was always that you're not going to do that. We've got this arrangement that works for everybody. I mean, it doesn't work for the American workers necessarily, but this is the arrangement or the Chinese workers or, you know, gradually, you know, and because of some equitable distribution, some more equitable distribution and works better for them. You know, they had the fastest reduction in poverty in world history as a result of some of this. But now they're saying, you know what, okay, fine, you are, you, you are putting your own companies out of business. So therefore we're just going to do that last leg of it. And while this thing was making, let's say there's $100 million revenue, you were getting 80 million, we were getting 20 million. We like the idea of us getting, you know, 90 million and you getting 10 as our kind of distribution network at the very end of the chain that we will own from beginning to end. So yeah, we like this. We'll keep all the money and the result will be a collapse in standard of living in the United States.

[Ryan]

Ryan, I don't know if you saw these charts that Derek Thompson put up. These are from, I think these are from the Philadelphia or this one that's on the screen right now is from the New York Fed. A survey from the New York Fed, the one that was just on the screen is from Philly Fed. But this is current and future general activity indexes. And you see a decline that is starting on a trajectory that almost looks similar, it looks like it's going in a similar trajectory to 2020 and Covid era. If we go back to this Philly Fed survey, you see differences in general business conditions, new orders and shipments between March and April. And again, Ryan, I think the way that I'm looking at this is it is a long term cost benefit analysis that is guaranteed to have short term pain. There is a possibility that there are long term gains, but the long, the biggest question is whether those long term gains, if they come outweigh the short term and then of course the long term losses. And so the White House has lists of, you know, deals it has with countries or new businesses that have agreed to, or new deals with businesses that have agreed to invest more in the country. But I mean, in the last couple of weeks, those are so far outweighed by the negatives in my estimation.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah, right. The long term gains will go to the companies and the countries that can take advantage of this moment, and those at this point are Chinese companies and China. It boggles my mind that, that Trump somehow thinks that all of these companies that he is deliberately driving out of business and into bankruptcy will somehow take advantage of his tariff policy and rebuild the American manufacturing capacity. Like that's like he's wiping out the people who would do the thing he wants them to do. The ultimate irony, of course, is that if you look at the manufacturing like numbers under the Biden administration, they were skyrocketing and it was through bipartisan industrial policy. Let's, let's keep Trump's tariffs in, in very targeted areas and let's subsidize domestic manufacturing in the United States. Like that's it. Like that's, that's what you do. If you, if you wanted to do this, Trump instead is like fighting against the subsidies call, you know, and then driving these companies that are driving this boom out of business. So how he thinks that they'll somehow come around and lead a long term turnaround is at least beyond my capacity to think.

[Ryan]

Should we roll these clips of Elizabeth Warren doing battle on cnbc? I knew you would be excited about these, so here is the first one there. She, she seemed to be on for quite a long time, right? Oh, I'm sorry. This is a CNBC poll that's actually worth looking at before we even roll into this, a new CNBC poll that found Trump's job approval 4451. He's down 12 points on the economy, down 16 on tariffs, and down 23 points on inflation and cost of living. So even by CNBC's metrics, that's where this is for Trump. Here we go with Elizabeth Warren.

[J]

What evidence are you pointing to that this is a corrupt policy?

[H]

Well, he right out in front, announces a tariff policy, says there are going to be no exceptions to that policy. And then he says, I talked to Tim Cook. Oh, really?

[J]

Shouldn't he be talking to the company?

[H]

Well, then he follows it up by saying, and all of a sudden, great deal available for Tim Cook. Tim Cook, who by the way, put.

[J]

A million dollars available for Americans who have to buy iPhones.

[H]

No, it is a great deal for one company, but how many of the competitors now get hurt. In fact I'd like to know what else goes on in this deal. Is it that Tim Cook and his interest debt protection but any of his competitors, I don't know, they get a higher interest rate. What happens to them?

[J]

The corruption and on the corrupt like.

[Ryan]

What evidence are you rolling to the next clip here as a reminder.

[J]

So Congress gives the Fed the authority can the President terminate. Not that he said he's going to do this but can he terminate Powell's chairmanship earlier than his end in term?

[H]

No.

[J]

Under no circumstance?

[H]

Nope.

[J]

So that's not a concern for you, does it?

[H]

Well I thought we were talking about legal but this is a President who has shown himself willing to violate laws everybody see does including willing to violate the Constitution of the United States. So that obviously puts things a little more in play than we ever would have guessed. But I really want to make a pitch here for a second about the importance of Powell staying in his job.

[J]

Look, and it's unusual coming from you, you're very critical of him.

[H]

I have tangled with him on a regular basis basis about both regulations and interest rates. But understand this. If Chairman Powell can be fired by the President of the United States it will crash the markets in the United States. The infrastructure that keeps this stock market strong and therefore a big part of our economy strong and therefore a big part of the world economy strong is the idea that the big pieces move independent of the politics that somebody is making his their her best decisions economically and independently. If we understand that if the New York Stock Exchange if interest rates in the United States are subject to a President who just wants to wave his magic wand, this doesn't distinguish us then from any other two bit dictatorship around the world.

[Ryan]

Ryan go off queen.

[Craig Melvin]

Well, I mean I, she's right on that point but I, I also kind of understand a populist argument for why the Fed actually should be democratically controlled. Like this is, this is the people's Federal Reserve.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

This, this is the people's monetary policy. Now I think that there needs to be a democratic system.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

Applied to it. So it not, it's not because if you just allow the President without any input from from Congress then he's going to just play games with the economy in the, you know, leading into every election. And yeah that, that, that makes a mockery of, of democracy because like if the goal is to have the federate be controlled by the will of the public, but the will of the public is manipulated by the President's control of monetary policy then then you don't actually have that right.

[Ryan]

You're substituting Jerome Powell for Trump, who's at least democratically elected but still has what Elizabeth Warren is saying. The underlying principle he's using, he's, he's invoked emergency powers for these tariffs, for example, which is actually again in principle sort of gets the argument that she's making about the whims of a principle being able to dictate these like significant market changes. Which is historically why investments in the United States were different than investments a lot of other places.

[Craig Melvin]

Right? Yeah. Do we, do we like being a global economic superpower or not? Like, do we like, you know what, what, what all this really shows is that if we want to keep our position as an economic superpower, we have to confront massive wealth and income inequality because it is making us crazy. Like the, the, it, it is, it is driving us like economically insane. And we're going to then commit economic suicide, which is what we're doing now if we don't, if we don't turn, if we don't turn this around. And that, that will put a dent in inequality in the sense that it will take, you know, some of these billionaires wealth from like, you know, 500 billion down to 300 billion, but that, that doesn't change their lives and it doesn't make anybody, any of us feel any better.

[Ryan]

So in the interest of sharing what we mentioned earlier, the White House's the sort of deals that they're pointing to here. I just pulled up a press release that they sent. I think this was from last week, but you can see they have all of these bullet points. JSW Steel announced will be adding jobs at its Ohio Steel plant. BMW is considering adding shifts to boost production at South Carolina plant. And I did click through some of these last week when I got it and some of them predated Liberation Day. So take that for what it is. But Merck announced it will invest 8 billion in the US over the next several years after opening a new billion dollar in North Carolina manufacturing. There are some of these examples or there are all of these examples, some of which are Paris Baguette and that's a $160 billion investment, some of which are bigger than others. But I think, Ryan, this is where I'm coming from in the sort of long term cost benefit analysis like 30,000 foot vantage point. You look at all of these and you can put side by side this a list of that's just as long of things that have negative consequences post Liberation Day. And so it's just to act as though this is definitively, I think, definitively, like, good. I think the evidence points that it's. I don't want to say it's definitively, like, over. It's ruined. This didn't do any good. But so far, I think it seems pretty clear that the, the bad through the uncertainty is outweighing the good.

[Craig Melvin]

Right. And the, and the question is, well, two questions, like how many of these announcements are real and how many of them are just trying to get on Trump's good side to get exemptions from, from the future tariff policy, which is the problem with having just one guy control all the tariff policy and the other is how many of these announcements that are real were impossible otherwise. Like, we're, we're a very big, powerful country with a huge market and a lot of incentives to offer people. If we wanted those companies to do what they're doing, invest in our country like that, you know, that that was happening, that it was moving in that direction and we could keep doing it. And we, and we, and we should have, like, there, there is an industrial policy that uses targeted tariffs and, and subsidies and other economic incentives to move in that direction. Just go ahead and do it. Doesn't mean you have to bankrupt hundreds of thousands of small businesses along the way.

[Ryan]

It's. I mean, so now that we're. What is this, the third week of Liberation Day? What is your assessment, Ryan, of just this last week?

[Craig Melvin]

I mean, he still seems committed to this, like, incorrect understanding of, of how he's going to, like, turn this thing around. Like, he, he does not seem to understand that China holds the cards and that the US does have the capacity to commit economic suicide. And he's walking us off that cliff.

[Ryan]

He's. Well, he obviously maintains he's walking us.

[Craig Melvin]

Off to the golden era.

[Ryan]

I was going to say, would he use the golden age that what looks like a cliff is actually a stairway to heaven?

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah, well, it might be. That. Might be that.

[Ryan]

Well, yeah, well, maybe it'll. Listen. I'm not, like, as convinced that nothing good at all will come of this, but I think as time wears on, there's no industrial policy that's being coupled with this, no significant industrial policy that's being coupled with this. There is no certainty on the horizon. It is just indefinite uncertainty. Not just a week of uncertainty that's used as leverage to secure really, obviously good deals. And we still, over the course of this week, have not gotten evidence of significantly good deals. If 70, 75 countries are calling the White House up, and I'm sure some of them are because we do have, China has cards, we obviously have cards too, because we have a massive market of consumers, a huge consumer market. So there's, you know, there's a lot to be negotiated. But I just, I mean, obviously Maloney was here this week. I don't know how much progress was, was made and the EU does want to cut a deal with us, but I've just, just haven't seen a lot of emergent evidence in this last week that those deals are really significant and being cut.

[Craig Melvin]

Right. And because that's the other thing is these deals could be cut without trying to blow up the world. Yeah, like he, he, I see all of his defenders talking as if the only way for the United States to get like Maloney on the phone is to first blow up the world. Like, again, have some self respect. You're the United States of America, the most powerful country in the history of the world. You want a trade deal with the eu, you can do a trade deal with the eu. You don't have to throw a temper tantrum to get that, to get those calls. Like I see all his defenders saying, oh, his phone is ringing off the hook. He's the President of the United States, he can get anybody on the phone he wants. He didn't need to do this. He has significantly weakened his own negotiating position.

[Ryan]

I think there's an argument just to.

[Craig Melvin]

Get Maloney on the phone or in the Oval Office.

[Ryan]

I think there's an argument that if the uncertainty had been that dramatic for a week, that is actually significant leverage that signals you are like, this is Donald Trump not messing around and he's completely serious about doing what everyone thinks is crazy. He doesn't think it's crazy. And if he maintains it for a week, maybe he maintains it for two weeks. Then, you know, you, you signal to people, it's always like foreign policy, like, he is not, this is not him just throwing out different random ideas like taking Canada. It's not him like joking around about the 51st state. This is completely serious. But now we're just lingering into this 90 day pause period of uncertainty on the reciprocal tariffs. And it's, it's, the water is so completely muddy. And so if you keep this up long enough that uncertainty means people are going to choose to invest elsewhere. And it, it doesn become its value as leverage is overtaken by the cost of people needing certainty and choosing where they can get certainty.

[Craig Melvin]

Yeah, and I just don't, I just don't think that repeatedly, like banging yourself over the head with a hammer is a way of showing that you're serious.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Craig Melvin]

That shows you're a crazy person. That is eventually going to knock yourself out.

[Ryan]

Well, I think you could show you're a crazy person. Yeah. Like briefly. And then you have to return from the abyss to actually get the deals.

[Craig Melvin]

Just two hammer blows.

[Ryan]

Yes.

[Craig Melvin]

All right.

[Emily]

Thank you guys so much for watching. We really appreciate you. If you're just listening to this on the free show, if you want to be able to see everything that Ryan and Emily discussed today, you can sign up@breaking points.com all of our premium subscribers will have access to the full episode as well as amas with Crystal and I. More live streams. Much, much more. We have a five day a week here show where which are really excited. This is how that we're able to enable all of the costs that go into that. So we really appreciate you. BreakingPoints.com if you're able. We'll see you later.

[Chris Van Hollen]

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[Craig Melvin]

Hello, darlings. Pack your suitcase for a new season of the Hulu original reality series Vanderpump Villa. Let's do this.

[Ryan]

Ciao.

[Craig Melvin]

It's Stassi, of course. Lisa brought in her favorite to be resident chaperone of the castle. Darcy is an icon. She's my eyes and ears.

[Ryan Grimm]

I love this.

[Craig Melvin]

Get ready for the luxury and drama that awaits us in Italy.

[Emily]

Cheers to all the toxic couples in the castle.

[Craig Melvin]

Season 2 of Vanderpump Villa premieres April 24, streaming on Hulu.

[Ryan Grimm]

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