← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
4/24/25: Jordan Peterson Lectures Rogan On Antisemitism, ICE Detains US Citizen, Bernie Endorses Michigan Senate Candidate
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- [00:01]
Crystal Ball
Every morning brings a fresh new energy. And no matter what the day holds.
- [00:06]
Sagar Enjeti
We come to the Today show for all of it.
- [00:08]
Ryan Grim
We get the best start to the.
- [00:09]
Sagar Enjeti
Day because we started together.
- [00:11]
Ryan Grim
Watch the Today show weekdays at 7am on NBC.
- [00:15]
Jordan Peterson
Hello, it is Ryan.
- [00:17]
Ryan Grim
And we could all use an extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we?
- [00:20]
Sagar Enjeti
Just to make up for things like.
- [00:21]
Jordan Peterson
Sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, counting your steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That is why I'm such a big.
- [00:27]
Ryan Grim
Fan of Chumba Casino.
- [00:28]
Jordan Peterson
Chumba Casino has all your favorite social casino style games that you can play for free, anytime, anywhere with daily bonuses. So sign up now@chumbacasino.com that's chumbacasino.com no purchase necessary.
- [00:41]
Sagar Enjeti
VGW Group void we're prohibited by law 21 plus terms and conditions apply.
- [00:45]
Ryan Grim
Asking the right questions can greatly impact your future, especially when it comes to your finances. So if you're looking for a financial advisor you can trust, certified financial planner professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. That's why it's gotta be a CFP. Find your CFP professional at letsmakeaplan.org hey.
- [01:06]
Jordan Peterson
Guys, Sagar and Krystal here.
- [01:08]
Crystal Ball
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
- [01:15]
Jordan Peterson
This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [01:21]
Crystal Ball
So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad, free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [01:32]
Jordan Peterson
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breakingpoints.com let's get over to anti Semitism. Man, there's so much going on here. So I, I, I, I. This may be a crazy thing to say. I think that the Douglas Murray debate was a real moment for the discourse around the Israel war with Gaza because I think what it really showed. So I mean, here's the thing about Douglas Murray. This is somebody you know, as we know, who has really been held up as like this intellectual explainer of like global forces of maga. And he's been of course a big defender of Israel. But I think what really showed people, you know, the bubble that he was in whenever it came to arguing on Israel's behalf and resorting to these ridiculous attacks like you've never even Been to Israel. I'm not gonna attempt the accent like Rogan and others to just see how sensitive and gatekeeping censorious and just broadly like, you know, just relying on the worst style of argumentation to ultimately what I think is to defend the indefensible really broke through. It has shown people both the weakness of like the pro Israel position, I think in the US but it's also invited now a full scale attack of even more censorship by some of these folks who actually owe a lot of their prominence to the dissident Internet to people like Rogan or the podcast space and now find themselves on the other side be like, no, no, no, no, we need to listen to the experts. So that's all of the context for what leads up to this extraordinary moment of Jordan Peterson coming to Joe Rogan's show and again resorting to Murray style tactics where he starts to interrogate Joe about where do you draw the line on the type of people that you come on? And then trying to basically dress up gatekeeping and censorship in the guise of psychology and psychotherapy of which he is allegedly an expert. So let's take a listen. With all of that said, you also.
- [03:38]
Joe Rogan
Set that conversation up, but it poked up and made itself manifest in that conversation. And the issue is, how do you identify the psychopathic pretenders? And it's even worse now and then make a barrier. Right now the right was calling for the left to do that for decades and they didn't and they couldn't. And the left is not good at drawing barriers. Partly temperamentally, the right is somewhat better, but there's no shortage of monstrosity there. And so then the question is, how do you draw the line? And that's kind of what I was because I've been watching these right wing, they're not right wing. These psychopathic types manipulate the edge of the conservative movement for their own gain. And a lot of that's cloaked in anti Semitic guys. There's plenty of anti Semitism on the left too, by the way. So it's not unique to the right. Particularly now. Yes, yes, yes, particularly now. And so, you know, you've let your curiosity guide you. Your curiosity and your desire for knowledge, this quest, you've let that guide you as a podcaster. And by the way, I'm trying to work through exactly the same sort of thing. How do you know, given your radical increase in stature over the last 10 years, how do you know when your curiosity and even your skepticism about the fact that things aren't the way that people say they are, because that's certainly been demonstrated in the last 10 years. How do you, how should anyone decide what guardrails to put up? Like, what do you look for? Do you have a conceptual system worked out for that?
- [05:19]
Jordan Peterson
Like, it's so obvious what's happening here, Crystal. It's like they have to construct these monsters that don't even exist without arguing with the people that are in front of them. Like Dave Smith, who very cogently and calmly dismantles Douglas Murray's every single propagandistic attempt to justify the US support for Israel. And broadly also, they're relying now on the very tactics that they denigrated whenever it was about racism or gender. I mean, can you imagine Jordan Peterson being like. Or Douglas in some sort of great defense of the biologists who are talking about transgender? It's preposterous. Preposterous. And yet they resort to the very same tactics now whenever it's an issue which they see. They're literally fighting and they're clawing, I think, to maintain, you know, this facade and this support. But I mean, the Internet and especially this style of discussion, they just fall apart. And it's at least nice to see Joe pretty skeptical, I think, especially in Murray's case and others really who have noticed this reversion from like free speech to censorship on the flip of a dime. We're talking only 18 months after a decade of preaching the opposite.
- [06:36]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, I mean, the TLDR here with Jordan Peterson and all of his semi incomprehensible mumbo jumbo, which is such a frickin pet peeve of mine to like wade through, like, what the fuck are you even really saying right now? Just like come out and say. Just come out and say, like, I don't like that you had Ian Carol on or whatever your beef is, and then we can actually deal with it. That irritates the shit out of me. Okay, so if you wade through all of that, what you can see going on in the right with the pro Israel crowd is that they have lost the debate. They've lost the public debate. Public support for their genocidal stance has collapsed. The only people who still are more sympathetic to Israel than to the Palestinians are like older Republicans. Every other demographic has moved away from them. And so when you've lost the debate, what do you have to do? You have to say, we can't even have this conversation. And that's to your point about the Douglas Murray piece. That really is what came out there. He is supposed to be the best of the best in terms of defending the like, ultra Zionist position. And if even he's forced to just resort, resort to, well, have you been there? Then, you know, they have no real arguments. And the thing is like, number one, when Jordan Peterson is accusing people of being psychopaths in defense of a policy that is genuinely psychopathic, which has involved the slaughter of innocent men, women, children, the complete destruction of all of Gaza, the starving and complete siege of Gaza, then, you know, you can see through the hollowness of his arguments here. And then the other thing that I would say is like, what makes it more complicated for me is if you take that context now, there's not nothing to what he's saying because I do think there is this posture in a lot of the like, quote unquote independent media of, you know, we're going to not only platform someone, but we're going to sort of just give them unquestioning free range. And but that isn't just these quote unquote fringe voices. That's people like when Rogan had Andreessen on and just let them lie and make up bullshit about the cfpb when he had Trump on and let Trump be, oh yeah, the election was stolen and say all kinds of like ridiculous things with absolutely no pushback whatsoever. You when Zuckerberg was on same sort of situation. So I do think there's a conversation to be had about not just who are you having on, but how are we approaching this. You know, are you just letting people use you for their own propaganda victories or is there some sort of intelligent pushback that is making people, that is helping to clarify rather than cloud the situation. And I also want to say, like, yeah, there's, there is a rise in anti Semitism. I think it's oftentimes put in the wrong direction in terms of like, it's entirely predictable that if we're relentlessly told all Jewish people have to be are associated with this state of Israel that is committing a genocide that we're all watching unfold in real time, you know, that it is going to generate increased anti Semitism that's still abhorrent, it still should be condemned, but it is a real problem. But obviously Jordan Peterson doesn't want to talk about or deal with any of that. So the end result or what his goal for the end result to be here is just we shouldn't really be talking about this, this issue because there is no real defense if you're actually dealing with the facts of what we've all Watched, unfold.
- [10:06]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, I mean let's put. Dave actually just had such a good retort. Let's put this up there on the screen, please. He says, I've always admired many things about Jordan Peterson. Okay, let's get that out of the way. I was a bit surprised at his take on keeping quote psychopaths away. Now I'm just a non expert comic who's never been. But it seems sloppy for a clinical psychologist to throw out a mass diagnosis like this. He mentioned Groipers as falling into this category. I certainly have my issues. I can count on their leader to trash me anytime making waves. But he continues, he says, if we are truly interested in calling out psychotherapy, why not start with the people dropping bombs on babies and advocating more? How about the people signing bombs that are on their way out to do that? How about the people who advocated for the last five catastrophic wars and despite being wrong about all of them, are advocating for the next? Why not have one standard and apply it across the board? And actually to even return to something you were saying about this whole like just letting people talk. Well, I think what that drives them crazy, Peterson, Murray and these others, is that for years what they have said, oh it's so great being able to talk, no pushback and all that. I don't disagree with you. You should have pushback against powerful people. What they are upset about is that you're allowing that standard for people like Dave Smith and Ian Carroll or I don't know, Kurt Metzger and some other voices that have been critical of Israel. That's what drives them nuts, is that those people are getting to talk as freely as them. That's what they can't stand and that's really what they're advocating for. And Glenn made such a good point. Let's put his tweet, please, up on the screen. He says, how come Ramaya Ozturk, a foreign national in the US legally is in prison for having written an op ed critical of Israel? But Jordan Peterson, a foreign national in the US also here present legally, is free to praise Israel and call Americans who oppose it psychopaths and somebody like Douglas Murray? Glenn continues, I kept hearing from those who were defending the rounding up these students for the crime of criticizing Israel, that guests in our country should keep their mouths shut and not criticize our government. But it doesn't really seem like, like this principle is consistently applied at all. And he's exactly right. You know, if we wanna get truly nationalist about it, why is this Canadian interloper coming to our country to lecture our population about our support for a foreign government. It makes no sense. All right? And it's one also which collapses under the weight, as you said, also of all this dressed up. Just say, hey, Joe, stop having on people who are critical of Israel. They're psychopaths. Now we can have a conversation now we could have an interesting conversation. And there was actually a very pregnant pause whenever I think Peterson was talking about people living in hell. And Rogan is like, yeah, like maybe if you live in Gaza right now. And he just paused, has to skate right by it. Right. Wow. And said these all speak, you know, they speak much louder than any of the other dressed up stuff around this.
- [13:09]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, well, I mean, and here's the other context is the way that this government, this administration is weaponizing every part of it, whether it's hhs, whether it's the Department of Education, whether it's ice to make sure that the line is enforced on this issue. And so, I mean, the answer to Glenn's question is obvious. Like, none of these people actually cared about censorship. None of these people actually cared about free speech. The people who are out there defending Mahmoud Khalil being locked up or Auster being locked up for her op ed or whatever, the reason they defend it is because they just don't want those viewpoints out there. There's no consistent standard here. And so the very people who gained so much fame and stature for being anti woke and anti cancel culture and anti censorship, and I'm a free speech bro, blah, blah, blah, very few of them have anything to say about a truly authoritarian crackdown on dissent when it comes to Israel. And that crackdown, by the way, does not just stay within the confines of that one debate either. We know the way that the Department of Justice is classifying any sort of like anti Tesla actions as domestic terror. We know the way that Seb Gorka is also classifying even hands off protesters and anyone who effectively opposes this administration as being potential domestic terrorists or aiding and abetting terrorists. People who oppose these outrageous deportations with no due process, he says they could be providing material aid to terrorists. So, you know, this is what I think you and I have tried to be consistent about, warning about, is when you have this sort of authoritarian instinct, even if it isn't a direction of a policy that you support or whatever, there is a vast potential and almost certainty that is going to creep and creep and creep and lead to increasing authoritarian crackdown. And this administration has taken it to a level that I don't Know, when is the last time we've seen in American history?
- [15:23]
Jordan Peterson
Let's put D4 up on the screen just to give a good example, right? Like this is something out of an Ibrahim Kendi book. Quote, and this is again flagged by Glenn. Under new guidelines released by the National Institute of Health, any medical researchers will have all funds terminated if they support a boycott of Israel. They can even support a boycott of any other country and even other US states, just not Israel. I mean, it says it right there. By accepting this grant, award recipients are certifying they do not engage in and will not, during the term of their award, engage in discriminatory, prohibited boycott. And that specifically relates to Israeli. And we're talking here about bds. This is a nationally enshrined BDS law, a law which will go into effect by this administration for billions of dollars in science research, which has nothing to do with any of this. And by the way, even if it did, it wouldn't matter and it would still be against, you know, against the First Amendment. I really hope that they take these people all the way to the Supreme Court and strike this bullshit down. And then finally, what I really wanna show people too is this last part. I've been laughing about this for 24 hours now. Let's put this up there on the screen. This is the level of where we're at now. The New York Post quote, American Jews faced a record 25 anti Semitic incidents per day last year, quote, more than one per hour, with most related to hatred of Israel. So these people, this is the adl, is genuinely claiming that American Jews are experiencing antisemitism more than once per hour. And I wanna outline why this stuff really matters, even for someone like me. So like, for people who are my age in particular, grew up in the 90s, kind of grew up before this like pre awokening era. One of the things that really turned people culturally and especially a lot of young guys is exactly this type of bullshit. I'll never forget, you know, Rolling Stone magazine, complete fake story. All I remember at there are like nine out of ten women are getting raped on college campuses. People are like, what? What are you even talking about? But you know, this is the equivocation of exactly that. And they're taking that WOKE style issue and just making up statistics in the same way that the worst BLM activists would, and then publishing it as fact and then passing it around, you know, to create this victim complex. And as they even note in their report, Crystal, all the things that they quote, are anti Semitic, are Just criticisms of Israel and of a foreign government. That's not anti Semitism.
- [17:58]
Crystal Ball
That's right.
- [17:59]
Jordan Peterson
So then this whole thing is. And by the way, you know, as you were saying about anti Semitism and the rise in it. Well, if that's your definition, then I'm not gonna believe a damn word that you say. I'm gonna go to where I eventually came to on these incidents where someone was like, oh, someone was racist to me. I'm like, listen, unless you have it on video, I don't believe you. That's basically where I'm at right now after this. Because we cannot trust a single word that you people are saying if that's your definition. And now we're trying into law.
- [18:27]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, that's right. And they give some examples here of the supposed anti Semitic incidents that are like rally chants in this New York Post article. But we have another example that just unfolded over at Yale University. I don't know if you saw this saga, if this was popping your timeline. So you get these tweets that say, oh, on the campus of Yale, Jewish students are being blocked from attending a lecture. Okay, well, let's talk a little bit more about this. Who was giving this purported just lecture? Oh, Itamar Ben Gavir, the literal terrorist who is calling for bombing aid depots and is like affirmatively in favor of a mass genocide is to the right of Netanyahu. Thinks Netanyahu has not gone far enough in terms of starving and bombing and destroying all of Gaza. That's who's giving the lecture. So, yeah, do I think it's appropriate to protest this absolute. You want to talk about psychopaths like that one? I feel very comfortable in diagnosing, even as a non psychologist here from afar, that dude is an evil psychopathic terrorist villain. If anyone deserves to be protested, it's that guy. And they're turning those protests, those completely righteous just protests by Yale University students into another. Oh, it's an anti Semitic hate crime. That's what we're talking about here. That's what we're talking about here. Criticism of Israel is not anti Semitism. You are allowed to criticize our government. You are allowed to criticize a foreign government. You are especially allowed to criticize a foreign government. We are supporting with our tax dol to commit these horrific atrocities. If you aren't doing that, then I have questions about your psychopathy and your ability to emotionally relate to the horrors that are being committed in our names. And when you insist as the ADL does that any attacks on Israel are an attack on all Jewish people. When you're tying those things together, that is exactly what helps to foment increased anti Semitism, increased actual bias. Because being relentlessly told by the ADL and by the Jordan Peterson's, the world, all these people, that the Jewish people are synonymous with Israel as we watch Israel commit all of these horrible, horrible, endless atrocities. So, you know, but this I do really feel like and I saw this quote unquote report from the New York Post get relentlessly mocked, which is good because it gives up the game of how ridiculous these stats are and how much they've gamed these stats. And to your point, Sagar, like it means that when you do see these supposed claims of anti Semitism, it makes me much more likely to be like, yeah, right, I need to know the details.
- [21:22]
Jordan Peterson
I don't believe you.
- [21:23]
Crystal Ball
It really undermines if you actually care about combating genuine antisemitism, which is a real thing. If you actually care about that these preposterous statistics and made up victim culture and made up, oh, they blocked Jewish students. Then you turn turns out, no, this is just a protest against a genuine, genuine psychopath. Like all of those things undermine your ability to actually combat genuine hatred and bias and smears against Jewish people. But you know, it's, I do think that the mask is sort of off on all of this stuff. The pushback to Peterson, the pushback to Douglas Murray, you know, the way that public sentiment has changed in the face of what has been an extraordinary propaganda effort, I think all indicates that, you know, there has been a seismic shift in this country. Like the people of this country's relationship to this country. In this conversation, every morning brings a fresh new energy.
- [22:21]
Ryan Grim
This is today.
- [22:22]
Crystal Ball
And no matter what the day holds.
- [22:24]
Sagar Enjeti
We come to the Today show for all of it. When things are tough, we talk about it. When there's something to figure out, we dig into it. And when there's joy, we celebrate it.
- [22:34]
Crystal Ball
Because today is where it's all happening. We get the best start to every morning because we start it together.
- [22:41]
Ryan Grim
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- [24:04]
Jordan Peterson
All right, let's get to deportation.
- [24:06]
Crystal Ball
Yeah. So there are some wild developments here. In particular, I've been wanting to cover the story of this American citizen who was picked up by ICE and detained for 10 days. Again, in spite of the fact this is an American citizen, there is no reason for this person to be detained and everyone acknowledges that it was wrong for him to be held for 10 days. So what unfolded here, and we can put this first piece up on the screen, is ICE effectively lied about what was going on with this individual. Judd Lagoom here says Jose Harmacio is a US Citizen who was wrongly jailed in immigration detention facility for 10 days. The administration says he turned himself in to the Border Patrol and told them he was a Mexican who crossed the border illegally. He actually Judd interviewed this person and he says the government is lying. And here you can see what the government's line was. They said the narrative being pushed around about Jose is false. On April 8, he approached Border Patrol in Tucson and stated he had entered the US Illegally through Nogales. He said he wanted to turn himself in and completed a sworn statement identifying as a Mexican citizen who had entered unlawfully. He was processed and appeared in court on April 11. Afterward, he was held by the U.S. marshals in Florence, Arizona. A few days later, his family presented documents showing U.S. citizenship. The charges were displayed, dismissed and he was released to his family. Their rest was the direct result of his own actions and statements. So saga, what they're asking us to believe here is that Jose decided it would be fun to go and turn himself into Border Patrol and tell them that he was an undocumented Immigrant who had just crossed in from Mexico so that he could pull this fun little gag prank and end up in detention with. In ICE detention for 10 days. That's what they want us to believe. Okay? Always preposterous. And immediately there were red flags because the Border Patrol had claimed they picked him up in Nogales. We quickly came to realize that was not true. They actually picked him up in Tucson, which is some distance away from Nogales. So immediately their narrative was very suspect. Now we're getting Jose's side of the story. Let's put the next piece up on the screen. So apparently he was visiting a girlfriend in Tucson, had a medical incident. I think he. He had seizures, was taken to a hospital, and then once he's out of the hospital, he is not sure how to, you know, get where he's going and sees border patrol officer, thinks this person might be able to help him. And instead they don't believe him when he says he's a US Citizen, just pick him up and have him sign this affidavit that claims that he came into from Mexico and that he's an undocumented citizen, et cetera, et cetera. Well, this Jose has a learning disability and is unable to read. So he had no idea what he was signing. And he ends up being stuck in ICE detention for 10 days even though he is a US citizen. And Zagar, the part of this, too, that is so important. I mean, number one, again, anytime an American citizen is caught up in this, I think everyone needs to stop and take note. Especially since it is this administration's position that you don't deserve any sort of due process. You don't get to even get your day in court to say, hey, here's my documents, like, here's my birth certificate, et cetera, before being disappeared into a foreign prison. But also, just look at the way they lie, like, top to bottom. They will just shamelessly make shit up and think that they can ultimately get away with it.
- [27:36]
Jordan Peterson
That's what it is for me is, you know, you, you again, look, we have many disagreements about mass deportation and all of that, but if you're going to do it, you have to do it in such a way that makes sure that you have credibility with the public and which you're not just following the law, but following order. And within this, it's just very clear. Like from the statements and all. I tracked this for quite a while. The statements were just completely incorrect. And that is what drives me the craziest. Not only, of course, about the not only about the detention of a citizen, but it is the broad precedent here where when Trisha McLaughlin, she's the spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security, put something out, I'm like, I don't believe you. I mean, this is. That's really. Especially after all of this El Salvador, all this El Salvador news. Many of the statements that they put out are just wrong either about Garcia initially, about the tattoos, like claims which are stated with absolute certainty and which fall apart under basic scrutiny. And so people, again, even if you support deportation, mass deportation, et cetera, which I do, I'm gonna be very, very clear about that when I see the way that they then justify their most extraordinary actions or others even in the future, if they're gonna say, this is what happened, I'm like, nah, I don't know. I'm gonna need again, what we were just talking about with anti Semitism, I'm see some evidence.
- [29:04]
Crystal Ball
I'm gonna need some evidence.
- [29:05]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, I'm gonna need to see video. Some real documentation. Maybe at this point, some serious adjudication through the legal process because you burned your credibility with the press. And I think we talked about the polls. A lot of people, they gave Trump a lot of leeway on immigration. They still do, actually. Even whenever it comes to the border and border crossings. People are pretty happy about that. But with the rest of this, I feel again, I'm resurrecting this Vietnam era term called credibility gap. And I think that the credibility gap here is so immense now that it's really at a position of, hey, prove it. You know, you're at this, at this point because people can't really take it seriously. A lot of what you guys are saying. And there are big consequences for this stuff.
- [29:50]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, no, there's no doubt about it. And Judd published the, you know, the thing they had Jose sign. And, you know, it really, like when you look at. Apparently he can't. He can't read, he can't write, he has a learning disability. And when you look at even the way he signs his name, like, I can't imagine that they didn't realize that this is someone who was confused about what was going on, who was unable to comprehend the information that was being put in front of him. And, you know, this is far from the only disturbing incident that we've been tracking this week. This next one is even more disturbing. If any thing, we could put this up on the screens. The New York Times did a deep dive into this Venezuelan, I think, like Uber eats driver, Doordash driver who was picked up while he. He works a delivery job in Detroit. He picked up an order at McDonald's. He meant to go to one address, but accidentally got on the bridge, which leads to Canada, which is a thing that happens in Detroit because Canada is right there. And so you can accidentally take the wrong exit and end up in Canada. When he tries to reenter the country, he's put in detention and he's ordered deported. And as of the time of the writing of this New York Times article, his friends and family could not find him anywhere. And the US Authorities would not give them any information about where he was. He was literally disappeared without a trace. Now, he was not on the list of men who had been sent into the El Salvador torture dungeon prison. He was not not on that list. And again, the government did not provide that list. By the way, media outlets were able to get a hold of that list. His name was not on that list. ICE and other government officials refused to tell his family what had happened to him. They'd had no communication with him whatsoever. And this is someone who was constantly checking in with friends and family. And he has a son, I believe. And so they felt like he was just vanished off the face of the earth. Now, after this media report and the scrutiny, now the government has been forced to acknowledge that, oh, he actually is in that El Salvador prison. But again, soccer. Just think about this. If it wasn't for this New York Times report about this man that just is gone, like, no one would ever have any way of knowing where he was and what the hell happened to him. Like, for his friends and family, he had just completely been disappeared. I mean, and this, again, just proves the point of why it is so important that people have an ability to, you know, go have their day in court and be able to dispute and that the government keeps records and that we're able to know where these people are and what is happening to them, because without them, they can literally pick up some doordash driver and he's just disappeared forever with zero recourse.
- [32:43]
Jordan Peterson
And they didn't even give us his name. They didn't publish the names of the individual. I mean, this is what I'm saying, you know, like it's. It's even beyond due process. It's just one of those where they're not even attempting to prove or to tell. It's not even about prove. They're not even attempting to convey. There's no transparency around the entire thing. And at this point, you and I both know why they're not doing it because they don't want people to be able to look into their background. So they're just keeping the names of half the people. So the whole thing is just completely preposterous.
- [33:10]
Crystal Ball
Every morning brings a fresh, new energy.
- [33:13]
Ryan Grim
This is TODAY with and no matter.
- [33:16]
Crystal Ball
What the day holds, we come to the Today show for all of it.
- [33:19]
Sagar Enjeti
When things are tough, we talk about it. When there's something to figure out, we dig into it. And when there's joy, we celebrate it.
- [33:27]
Crystal Ball
Because today is where it's all happening. We get the best start to every morning because we start it together.
- [33:34]
Ryan Grim
Watch the Today show with Savannah Guthrie and Craig Melvin, weekdays at 7am on NBC. Asking the right questions can greatly impact your future, especially when it comes to your finances. So if you're looking for a financial advisor you can trust, certified financial planner professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. That's why it's gotta be a CFP. Find your CFP professional@letsmakeaplan.org hi, I'm Cindy.
- [34:02]
Crystal Ball
Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but, like, I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty, beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningfulbeauty.com we are very pleased to be joined this morning by Dr. Abdul El Sayed, who is a public health professor and has announced a run for Senate in Michigan, entered the Democratic primary there. Great to see you. Dr.
- [34:52]
Sagar Enjeti
Crystal, always a privilege to be with you today.
- [34:54]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, my pleasure. So your run has caught a lot of people's attention, both because of some of your bold stances, but also we can put this up on the screen because you are the first candidate this cycle to earn the official endorsement of Senator Bernie Sanders, who you've supported in the past and, you know, have a platform that is broadly aligned with Senator Sanders positioning. You know, he obviously has long now at this point been a very significant figure in American political life. But in some ways, his reach and influence has only strengthened in Trump 2.0. He's really entered this absolute leadership position with the Stop Oligarchy tour. So, doctor, if you could just tell us a little bit why you jumped in this race and the significance of receiving Senator Sanders endorsement.
- [35:40]
Sagar Enjeti
Yeah, Crystal, look, it just shouldn't be this Hard in the richest, most powerful country in the world just to get by, to afford your groceries, to go see a doctor without being affordable, afraid that you're going to go into medical debt, to know that your kid's going to have a good school or even childcare, to believe that you have your job tomorrow and that that job will pay you enough to be able to afford your home. These are things that you should be able to take for granted in our country, and you can't. And the very people who've weaponized all of that pain are now making it worse. Whether it's Donald Trump or Doge and Elon Musk, they are weaponizing against government to deliver to the very people who've put us in this situation. And when I ran in 2018 for governor, I said something that people weren't quite ready to hear, which is that Donald Trump isn't the disease. He's just the worst symptom of the disease. And the disease is a government that has been corrupted by the power of billionaires and corporations and oligarchs in ways that have left them monetizing us. And I'm really grateful to earn Senator Sanders support because he's somebody who's recognized that guaranteeing health care and building an economy that works for working people should be common sense. We shouldn't be having debates about whether or not Democrats can believe in these things when this party was supposed to be built for working people. And so both of us are about the work of taking the party back. More importantly, delivering government that works for people. That's what I've done my whole career as a health director in Wayne county and in Detroit, erasing $700 million in medical debt, making sure kids had glasses on their faces when they needed them. That's what we need in the Senate right now. And I look forward to being able to serve my state this way.
- [37:06]
Crystal Ball
What is your assessment of how Democrats have responded to this iteration of the Trump administration?
- [37:13]
Sagar Enjeti
I mean, I think you've heard it right. Roll over and play dead. And unfortunately, that's not what we need. We need to fight. And the tough part about it is this is when people get elected, they sometimes mistake their job as a representative or a senator for the procedural parts of the job, how you vote. And when they were given the opportunity to use the procedural part of the job to stand up on that continuing resolution, they missed that. But then, bigger picture, the ability to show up and fight back. People want to know that their congresspeople, even if they don't have the procedural capacity to change what government's doing or hold Trump accountable right now that they would if they could. And that means being willing to call out Trump, but also not just fight back. Remember what you're fighting for. And here's where the party, I think, has had such a challenge. We do this thing, Democrats, of trying to triangulate to a message that's going to make everybody happy enough. Right. So it's going to be perfectly inoffensive to the donors who've been writing too many of those big checks that have corrupted our government. And then we end up saying nothing at all but saying it with enthusiasm. And then you just look ridiculous. And so for us, we've got to go continue a conversation with the people, understand what is causing their pain, have real clear solutions to solving it, and then be willing to take that solution to the streets. And I think if we do that, we win votes, we win back power, and we can actually take that pain and turn it into something bigger than cynicism, which I believe is hope.
- [38:30]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, I completely agree with that. I want to talk to you a little bit about the primary field. I know one of your main opponents is Haley Stevens. She's a current representative. You know, I think you would classify as more aligned with the kind of establishment of the Democratic Party. She's also taken some significant funding from AIPAC and has been a pretty reliable pro Israel vote. So I wonder your, you know, your thoughts about how you contrast with her and also how much you think that Israel is, what I think you and I both agree is a genocidal assault in Gaza, how significant that will be in this race.
- [39:06]
Sagar Enjeti
I mean, let's just step back here for a second. AIPAC is awash in funding that has supported Donald Trump. And if you're going to take MAGA money to try and beat a fellow Democrat, I just think one has to answer for that. I believe deeply that in our country, when you look at our schools, you have to ask, why is it that we ship out billions of dollars to a rich country's military to drop bombs on other kids and their schools rather than investing in our own? And I just think that's a simple question we ought to be asking when it comes to what's happening in Gaza, there's no doubt that this, I don't know another word for what happens when you kill 50,000 people and counting, you render their homes unlivable, you try to push them into another country because people in that country speak the same language. I don't know what word you call that. And so for me, I just think it's common sense. I would rather spend our money here, invested in our kids rather than killing kids abroad. And I don't think that we should be sending our money to a foreign military that is committing acts that we would never, ever, ever be okay, committed on our kids. And so we deserve a lot better. And I just think there are open questions that need to be asked about what happens when you take MAGA money to support that kind of thing abroad to try and call shots in a Democratic primary.
- [40:21]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, and this is far from the most important question here. But you know, I think the what's being done in Gaza is far beyond some sort of sectarian divide. We've seen the way that especially the base of the Democratic Party is horrified by what our tax dollars do there, whether you're Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. That being said, I am curious your assessment of how your stance, which would be the strongest stance of any senator, including Senator Sanders, if you were able to get elected to the Senate, how your stance is being received politically because Michigan does have a significant Jewish population. Michigan also obviously has a very significant Muslim population. So I wonder what your conversations with voters have been like thus far.
- [41:05]
Sagar Enjeti
Crystal, you shouldn't have to be any one religion to see things that are obviously wrong and call them out. So my conversation, I hope, is with Michiganders of all stripes, my Jewish sisters and brothers, my Muslim sisters and brothers, my Christians sisters and brothers, my atheist sisters and brothers, about the question of what we should be doing with our tax dollars. I don't think we should be sending them abroad to drop bombs on other people's children. I just think that you shouldn't. There is no tribe, there is no ethnicity or race or religion that should stand in the way of just seeing that. And that's the conversation I'm hoping to have. And I'll tell you, it's common sense. And so when you go and have that conversation, despite the fact that, that, you know, there are a lot of folks who in politics believe that saying the obvious thing is verboten. When you just have that conversation with people, most of the time people's heads nod and they wonder why more people aren't saying the same thing. So what I'm asking is that we should be spending our money here at home. We should be investing in our schools and our health care. And by the way, when I go talk about an economy for working people, when I go talk about guaranteeing people health care, when I go talk about investing More in public schools. The big pushback I happen to hear from folks, unfortunately in my party as well, is that we just don't have the money to do that. And so the question we have to ask is, okay, so where does our money go? And unfortunately, too much of it goes abroad to do things that are not consistent with our values or our beliefs. And so my point is maybe instead of spending it there to do awful things, maybe we should be spending it here to do good things. And if that's as common sense as it sounds, it's because it is. And so it's not very difficult to convince people of common sense. And that's what we're trying to do here.
- [42:43]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, I did want to get your reaction to some news that is breaking out of Michigan with the understanding that it's sort of, you know, early and we don't know all the details here, but we can put this video obtained by Status Coups Ashley Bishop up on the screen here. What you're watching is FBI and police raiding homes of pro Palestine activists in and around University of Michigan. There were a number of houses that experienced these raids. The early indications are this was actually directed by the Democratic Attorney General. General. So I'm just curious your reaction, your understanding of what this is all about. And I'd also love to hear your thoughts more broadly on something Sagar and I have been covering a lot, which is this quite authoritarian crackdown on any speech and dissent from this government's policy vis a vis Israel.
- [43:34]
Sagar Enjeti
Yeah, Crystal, I really appreciate you covering it because I think it is the big context question we all have to be asking. I don't know the specific details about what perpetuated that raid. Obviously, the raid was directed by our attorney General here in Michigan. It was signed off on by a judge. I want to understand specifically what and why they felt like it was important to have a multi jurisdictional raid where they were breaking down people's doors. Because my understanding is if it's about vandalism, usually those kinds of raids are kept for dangerous crimes that involve violence against people. That being said, I just think it's important for us to zoom back out and understand that right now we're watching as the federal government is being weaponized against people for doing things like signing their name to an op ed when it comes to standing up for Palestinian rights. And they're trying to crack down on universities because of peaceful protests in those communities. People literally getting disappeared because they were willing to use the freedom of speech which is guaranteed to people in our country citizens or not. And I just think it's really important for us to recognize that this is not normal. And so I don't know the specifics about this case, and I'll wait and see to see whether or not the use of this kind of force was substantiated. But more broadly, it is really concerning when you start seeing our government weaponized against the freedom of speech. And that should concern us all. And I think for even folks who were not involved in the campus protest, if you protest anything, if you're willing to send a letter to the editor of your newspaper for something as simple as a disagreement, for example, with the town board, does this create precedent where they can come after you? And I worry that it does, especially when you consider the fact that right now the Trump administration believes that it is outside the bounds of court orders. And so I just worry a lot about what this means, about our freedom of speech. And I think we need to step up, up to make sure that in these United States there is a rule of law that is bigger than any one president or any one law enforcement official, and that rule of law should reign supreme. Due process matters. And we just need to make sure that we are not forgetting that broader context, because I worry that we're seeing people across our country and universities being broken over this in ways that the rule of law seems to be thrown out the window as well.
- [45:57]
Crystal Ball
Well, yeah. And related to that, you know, last question I have for you is there's a bit of a, like, you know, annoying Twitter debate playing out over how Democrats should focus their message, because obviously, Trump's trade war is disastrously unpopular. His economic approval rating has fallen off a cliff. You have deep concerns that he may be, you know, personally triggering a mass economic crisis and recession that is going to impact every single person in this country. At the same time, you see those authoritarian abuses, which are also terrifying for the future of our country. Things like, you know, the, the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, where he's wrongfully deported into this El Salvadorian, basically torture dungeon. And the administration's position is, no, you don't get a chance to have your day in court. And, no, we're under no obligation to fix what we even acknowledged was a mistake in shipping him off there. And obviously, he's not the only one. He's garnered the most attention because of the Supreme Court ruling, because of the clear cut nature of his case. But all of the individuals who were disappeared into that prison had no recourse, had no due process, had no ability to contest the nature of not just a deportation, an imprisonment, potentially for life. So I'm curious, you know, in this debate of you've got people. Oh, well, just don't really talk about that because Trump's on better ground with immigration and he's on weaker ground with regard to tariffs. So that's where you should be training all of your fire. And that's a real way to defeat him and defeat, you know, what is a horrific, and I would say fascistic movement. I was just wondering how you're thinking about those pieces when there are so many on a daily basis horrors to to focus on and media space is limited to a certain degree, how many things we can really train our attention to.
- [47:47]
Sagar Enjeti
Yeah, look, I studied a lot of things that were complicated. I went to med school. This one's not that complicated. The biggest issue I think we have right now is that we are running scared. We're scared of what we believe. And when you're scared of what you believe, that means that people see it in you and they don't think you believe it all that strongly. I think we have to stop being so afraid of what we believe. And we can walk and chew gum at the same time, but you have to stand up and believe what you're saying and say it clearly, honestly, and with conviction, consistently. Look, the other part of this though, is that you can't just say what you're against. I mean, this is the other part of the mistake. He creates such a smokescreen and you point to that one or that one or that one and you say, which one of these should I focus on? Well, you can say that they're all wrong, but more importantly, people want to understand what your alternative is. So you cannot be afraid of telling people what you think the world ought to look like. And in response to Trump, who is chaotic and self serving and ham handed did, we've got opportunities to step up and say, hey, listen, we understand that you are facing a lot of pain and we understand that a lot of that could be solved by government and also could be made a lot worse by government. When they go after people, they deport them for signing their name to an op ed or they are now out of the bounds of American courts that could be weaponized against you. That will make the pain a lot worse. And at the same time, we can take our government and our economics back from the corporations that have rigged the system in ways that leave you deeply, deeply insecure. And we can guarantee you health care. We can talk about all those things. At the same time, we got to stop being afraid to do so. So we have a vision of what the world ought to be. Too often Democrats are too afraid of painting that vision because they're worried about offending somebody, usually a corporate donor. So I just think that if you're willing to say, look, that's wrong and this is right, people will see that and say, okay, you know, these folks actually have a vision and they want to work for that vision. And maybe that's a real alternative for me.
- [49:40]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, I think that's so well said that, you know, all these like, let's check the polls and let's focus, test it. It's like people can see when you are trying to pander versus you actually have a position, you're willing to fight for it. And I think that has been one of the major downfalls of the Democratic Party in recent years. Dr. Tell people where they can find, follow and support your campaign.
- [50:03]
Sagar Enjeti
I hope that folks will check out abdul4senate.com Please do sign up to volunteer. If you're in Michigan, host us at a house party or chip us a couple bucks, five bucks, ten bucks. I don't take corporate PAC money, so I rely on you. And then if you're out of out of state, sign up to volunteer. And also just check us out on socials, share our stuff, be a part of this conversation. This is about more than just one election. It's about taking our politics back and building the kind of America where we are true to our ideals of a government of the people, for the people and by the people. And Crystal, thank you so much for the conversations you drive every day and for having me and allowing me to share your space today.
- [50:35]
Crystal Ball
Well, I really appreciate you taking the time out. I know you got a lot going on, so it's always great to see you. Good luck. We're, we're looking forward to seeing your voice out there.
- [50:44]
Sagar Enjeti
Thank you.
- [50:44]
Crystal Ball
All right, guys, thanks so much for joining us today. Zagar had to run out and take care of something real quick, but we will be back here. Some subset of us, I'm not sure exactly who yet. We'll be here for the Friday show tomorrow. I'm sure there will be a million things for us to cover and get to appreciate you all. Have a great day.
- [51:13]
Jordan Peterson
Hey, Jenice Torres here and I'm Austin Hankwitz. We're the hosts of Mind the Business Small Business Success Stories produced by Ruby.
- [51:21]
Crystal Ball
Studio and Intuit QuickBooks.
- [51:23]
Sagar Enjeti
Catch up on seasons one and two and join us for a brand new.
- [51:26]
Jordan Peterson
Season of the podcast as we talk.
- [51:27]
Ryan Grim
To small business owners about how they.
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Jordan Peterson
Manage and grow their businesses with the.
- [51:31]
Sagar Enjeti
Help of platforms like Intuit QuickBooks. Listen to mind the Business small business success Stories on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [51:43]
Ryan Grim
Asking the right questions can greatly impact your future, especially when it comes to your finances. So if you're looking for a financial advisor you can trust, certified financial planner professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. That's why it's gotta be a CFP. Find your CFP professional at letsmakeaplan.org.
- [52:07]
Crystal Ball
Clorox.
- [52:08]
Sagar Enjeti
Scentiva smells like lavender, cleans like Clorox.
- [52:15]
Crystal Ball
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