4/30/25: Trump Bullies Bezos, GDP Shrinks, Trump MS13 Photoshop, US Jet Falls Into Sea & MORE!

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Episode: Trump Bullies Bezos, GDP Shrinks, Trump MS13 Photoshop, US Jet Falls Into Sea & MORE!
Release Date: April 30, 2025

---

1. Amazon's Tariff Transparency Controversy

The episode kicks off with a heated discussion surrounding Amazon's recent decision to potentially display additional costs associated with tariffs next to product prices. Initially reported by Punchbowl, Amazon considered listing the extra expenses imposed by Trump-era tariffs but retracted the decision by the end of the day. Krystal and Saagar delve into the implications of this move, emphasizing that it highlights the direct impact of tariffs on American consumers rather than foreign entities.

Notable Quote:

• Emily Jashinsky [07:08]: "Why didn't Amazon do this when the Biden administration hiked inflation to the highest level in 40 years?"

The hosts argue that such actions by Amazon could signal a broader trend of major retailers exerting pressure on suppliers to absorb costs, potentially squeezing small businesses and leading to empty shelves for consumers.

2. Trump's Interview with Terry Moran and the MS13 Controversy

A significant portion of the episode examines former President Donald Trump's recent interview with Terry Moran, focusing on his claims about deporting individuals with MS13 affiliations. Trump presented a photoshopped image suggesting that an individual he deported had MS13 tattoos on his knuckles. This claim has been met with skepticism, as the original image appears manipulated to falsely depict gang affiliations.

Notable Quotes:

• Donald Trump [45:55]: "He had MS13 on his knuckles. That was Photoshopped."
• Emily Jashinsky [78:51]: "Donald Trump clearly believes that he deported someone with MS.13 tattooed on his knuckles."

The hosts critique Trump's credibility, suggesting that his reliance on altered photos undermines his authority and reflects a deeper disconnect from reality. They also highlight the dangers of such misinformation, especially when it leads to unwarranted targeting of specific communities.

3. Economic Downturn: GDP Contraction and ADP Payroll Decline

Krystal and Saagar analyze the disappointing economic indicators released this week, notably the GDP shrinkage and a sluggish ADP payroll report. Economists had anticipated a modest 0.4% year-over-year GDP growth, but the actual figures showed a 0.3% decline—the first economic contraction since the pandemic. Additionally, the ADP report revealed only 62,000 jobs added, significantly below the expected 150,000.

Notable Quotes:

• Sagar Enjeti [28:11]: "The decline in consumption is the number one story."
• Ryan Grim [41:09]: "The GDP is interesting in the way that it factors in imports."

The discussion emphasizes that reduced consumer confidence and increased tariffs are dampening economic growth, potentially setting the stage for a recession. The hosts express concern over declining domestic consumption, which signals broader uncertainty among consumers about future economic stability.

4. US Military Incident: FA18 Fighter Jet Sinks in the Red Sea

The podcast addresses a recent military mishap where an FA18 fighter jet fell off a US aircraft carrier, sinking to the bottom of the Red Sea. The incident raises questions about the competency of military operations and the potential risks posed by high-speed maneuvers to avoid missile attacks.

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Grim [93:33]: "We're not importing anything. But just as people I think are pinching their pennies more because consumer confidence has completely collapsed."
• Emily Jashinsky [104:42]: "It's very, very weird."

The hosts speculate on whether the jet's loss was a mere accident or indicative of deeper issues within military protocols. They also touch upon the constitutional implications of such actions without explicit Congressional authorization, highlighting concerns over the War Powers Resolution.

5. Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) and Misguided Military Strikes

A troubling development discussed is the use of Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) by CENTCOM to target militant groups. Amateur OSINT enthusiasts had shared coordinates purportedly identifying Houthi missile launch sites, leading to US strikes that tragically hit an African migrant detention center instead, resulting in at least 68 civilian deaths.

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Grim [97:48]: "Is this the strangest coincidence ever, or is CENTCOM pulling targets from random Twitter users, striking them?"
• Chernobyl [142:51]: "Transnational dimension of these corrupt arrangements."

The incident underscores the dangers of relying on unverified online sources for military decisions, leading to loss of innocent lives and exacerbating conflicts. The hosts critique the lack of verification processes and the devastating consequences of such errors, questioning the accountability mechanisms in place.

6. Assault in Crown Heights: A National Scandal

The episode culminates with an emotional interview featuring a woman who was assaulted during protests in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. The incident occurred when she tried to remain neutral amidst escalating tensions, only to be targeted and harassed by pro-Israel protesters after she briefly covered her face to avoid being filmed.

Notable Quotes:

• Crown Heights Resident [110:46]: "They were threatening to rape me. They telling me to go back to Palestine."
• Ryan Grim [123:42]: "Nobody should be beaten up, no matter what they think, wherever they are on the spectrum."

The interviewee describes the terror and lack of police intervention during the attack, highlighting systemic issues of bias and the failure of law enforcement to protect all civilians. The hosts use this story to emphasize the urgent need for accountability and reforms to prevent such violence and discrimination in the future.

---

Conclusion

In this episode of "Breaking Points," Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti tackle a multitude of pressing issues—from the economic strains caused by tariffs and declining GDP to the alarming instances of misinformation and military negligence. The discussion sheds light on the intricate interplay between political decisions, economic health, and societal well-being, urging listeners to critically assess the narratives presented by those in power.

Final Notable Quote:

• Ryan Grim [152:13]: "Tune in to find out. We'll definitely be here Friday."

---

This summary aims to provide a comprehensive overview of the key topics discussed in the episode, complete with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

Transcript

[Ryan Grim]

At Designer Shoe Warehouse we believe that shoes are an important part of, well, everything.

[Emily Jashinsky]

From first steps to first dates, from all nighters to all time personal bests.

[Ryan Grim]

From building pillow forts to building a mud for all the big and small.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Moments that make up your whole world. DSW is there and we've got just the shoes. Find a shoe for every you from.

[Ryan Grim]

Brands you love at brag worthy prices.

[Emily Jashinsky]

At your DSW store or dsw.com it's.

[Sagar Enjeti]

True that some things change as we get older. But if you're a woman over 40 and you're dealing with insomnia, brain fog, moodiness and weight gain, you don't have.

[Ryan Grim]

To accept it as just another part of aging.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And with MIDI health, you can get.

[Ryan Grim]

Help and stop pushing through it alone.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The experts at MIDI understand that all these symptoms can be connected to the hormonal changes that happen around menopause, and MIDI can help you feel more like yourself again. Many healthcare providers aren't trained to treat or even recognize menopause symptoms. MIDI clinicians are menopause experts. They're dedicated to providing safe, effective, FDA approved solutions for dozens of hormonal symptoms, not just hot flashes. Most importantly, they're covered by insurance. 91% of MDI patients get relief from symptoms within just two months. You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit today@join midi.com that's join M I D I.com the biggest.

[Ryan Grim]

Stars in country music will be taking.

[Dasha Burns]

The stage at our 2025 I Heart.

[Ryan Grim]

Country Festival presented by Capital One. Ladies and gentlemen, Brooks and Dunn Thomas Rhett Rascal Flatts, Cole Swindell, Sam Hunt.

[Krystal Ball]

Megan Maroney, Bailey Zimmerman Nate Smith Spencer.

[Ryan Grim]

Special Guest Dasha Die Hard Country Festival Stream only on Hulu Saturday, May 3 starting at 8pm Eastern, 5 Pacific hey.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Ryan Grim]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So excited about what that means for.

[Ryan Grim]

The future of this show.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free.

[Ryan Grim]

And all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com.

[Ryan Grim]

Good morning and welcome to Counterpoints. Emily, how you doing?

[Emily Jashinsky]

I'm good. We've got Sagar on deck, don't we?

[Ryan Grim]

Yes, we're going to. We've got a great slate of guests today, slash co hosts. So we've got Sagar, who's going to join us for about half of the show. After that we're going to be joined by one of the two victims of, of the assault in Crown Heights last week. This woman was a random bystander who was just checking out the scene. Somebody started filming her. So she put a kind of scarf over her face and instantly this crowd of pro Israel people was like, oh, she must be anti Israel cause she's got a scarf on her face. And a harrowing scene emerged. This will be her first on camera interview. Eric Adams has actually asked her to come forward so that he can press charges against the people who were involved with this.

[Emily Jashinsky]

And we have new video footage as well.

[Ryan Grim]

And we have her video footage which has not been seen before. So you're gonna see this mob kind of from her perspective. We're also going to talk to African journalist Chernoby. He's gonna talk about the. What's going on in Africa post usaid. He has been a longtime critic of American interference in Africa and usaid. So he's gonna, he'll talk about that and a bunch of other things. GDP numbers came out this morning, so we'll talk about that. Last night, Donald Trump did an interview with Terry Moran.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Wild interview with Terry.

[Ryan Grim]

Wild interview with Terry Moran. A rally. He met with Gretchen Whitmer. I think the theme of today's show is the break with reality in a way that we haven't really seen in our politics before. There's just some. It's just getting weird.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Didn't that happen in like 2015?

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, ish. When you start to hear Donald Trump talking, let's see if like these aren't even lies. These are just like, is this guy okay?

[Emily Jashinsky]

There are some particularly interesting moments actually in that context. Also the influencer briefings. We're gonna do battle over the influencer briefings. Cause I'm outnumbered on this. Ryan and Sager wanna tear them apart.

[Ryan Grim]

And you know what, the White House is bringing in social media influencers and hosting like parodies of press events.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, Some of them definitely deserve to be torn apart. So we will get into all of that. Trump also held a rally last night. In addition to this interview with Terry Moran. He's celebrating his first 100 days in style Ryan. So we have sound bites from that and the Houthis. You give us an update on.

[Ryan Grim]

Going to do a wide update on the war in Yemen. A, one of our $70 million fighter jets fell off an aircraft carrier. We'll talk about that. B, it appears that CENTCOM is now taking targeting information from random OSINT people. Sager's gonna like this one. Random OSINT people on Twitter and just killing innocent people. Because they're not double checking the work of these amateurs from, like, Europe and Houston. And along the way, they bombed an African migrant detention Center. So far, 68 people have been killed in this strike. They said it was some Houthi base. It was actually. Actually a detention center. Quick health update on the Grimm family. We can bring Sagr in here. Yes, because Sagar will appreciate this. When there was the overhead cam a couple weeks ago, I noticed I was going bald. And a lot of breaking points. Viewers said, you got to get this hims minoxidil thing. I. I started doing it. Are you serious?

[Sagar Enjeti]

I don't know. Ryan, you gotta check your testosterone levels on that one.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, really?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, you should watch out.

[Ryan Grim]

You should watch out. So my T levels are gonna collapse. The other health update, my wife's pathology report came back. And no residual cancer. Cancer free.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Congratulations.

[Ryan Grim]

There'll be some radiation and some other things, but real light at the end of the tunnel and a big relief.

[Emily Jashinsky]

For all of you.

[Ryan Grim]

Fuller head of hair, no cancer. Like things are looking up.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Life couldn't be better for Ryan right now.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I'm so glad to hear it, Ryan, and thank you guys for having me. I appreciate it.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, appreciate you being here. We're going to start by talking about the up and down with Amazon. Right? So Amazon begins the day with reporting in Punchbowl that they're going to start listing the extra price that you're paying based on the tariffs. They end the day without that. And throughout the day. I think it's a lesson in our contemporary politics. But let's roll this first side. So it was reported this morning that Amazon will soon display a little number next to the price of each product. That shows how much the Trump tariffs.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Are adding to the cost of each product.

[Ryan Grim]

So isn't that a perfect, crystal clear demonstration that it's the American consumer and not China who is going to have to pay for these policies?

[Emily Jashinsky]

I will take this since I just got off the phone with the president about Amazon's announcement. This is a hostile and political act by Amazon. Why didn't Amazon do this when the Biden administration hiked inflation to the highest level in 40 years? And I would also add that it's.

[Ryan Grim]

Not a surprise because as Reuters recently.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Wrote, Amazon has partnered with a Chinese propaganda arm. So this is another reason why Americans should buy American. It's another reason why we are on shoring critical supply chains here at home to shore up our own critical supply chain and boost our own manufacturing.

[Ryan Grim]

Is Jeff Bezos still a Trump supporter?

[Emily Jashinsky]

Look, I will not speak to the President's relationships with Jeff Bezos, but I will tell you that this is certainly a hostile and political action by Amazon.

[Ryan Grim]

All right, so this allegedly hostile act was first reported by Punchbowl after that White House interaction. You can move now to A three very quickly. Here's Jeff Stein reporting on an Amazon statement that, quote, the team that runs our ultra low cost Amazon hall store has considered listing import charges on certain products. This was never a consideration for the main Amazon site and nothing has been implemented on any Amazon properties.

[Emily Jashinsky]

But wait, there's more.

[Ryan Grim]

But wait, there is more. Donald Trump has asked about this back and forth. Let's roll Trump.

[Donald Trump]

Great. Jeff Bezos was very nice. He was terrific. He solved the problem very quickly and he did the right thing and he's a good guy.

[Emily Jashinsky]

So it went from Punchbowl to the briefing to Jeff Stein to Donald Trump himself. Sager, what did you make of that play by play in the I think all of that went from like 8am.

[Ryan Grim]

Till 1pm with Amazon stock moving as a result time.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I mean, I think my meta takeaway from all of this is just how different and how frankly weak this is compared to the Chinese system. I want to remind everyone, whenever we were covering this stuff last week on the Chinese version of Amazon, they are actually advertising state subsidized discounts. They're calling them patriotic discounts, saying, hey Chinese people, if you are patriotic, stand up to the United States. Buy Chinese. Here is a discount from the state. We must save our supply chains. Meanwhile, here we are in our country where the price is going up no matter what. Except the President and Bezos, you know, one of the richest men in the world and the President of the United States are basically coming together to make sure that the label is not there to say that this is as a result of the tariffs. I also want to say this as well. The White House might be trying to do some sort of political layup by in the future they're going to say, look, Amazon prices have not gone up all that much. That is just categorically not true. The reason why is that while the price may remain the same on Amazon, Amazon is currently engaged in economic warfare against all of its suppliers. I was just reading Yesterday, Amazon is demanding in the same way that Walmart, Target and all the other large retailers are. They are saying to their suppliers, you are eating the margin. We are not touching $1 of this. They have the power of that because of the reliance of those platform, of those suppliers on their platform. This is the problem. So Amazon, Target and Walmart, they are all going to be generally fine. Yes, there may be some little bit of increase in price but the real crime here is for the small business, let's say that relies on Amazon, let's say they do 60 or 70% volume. I don't know if you guys saw this is a viral image going around of somebody who bought something from Hong Kong where they paid like $2,000 for the product and their custom duty charge is over the price of the good, right? So 2500. So just imagine if you're one of these smaller suppliers, E Commerce company. There's so many of these companies out there that rely on Amazon almost entirely and Amazon is telling them no, no, no, no, you're eating that. And so Costco, Walmart, Target and Amazon, the big four like major retailers, they have the power to tell those suppliers to eat margin and that's great for them. But you know that can result both in a wipeout of a lot of these suppliers. Right, because they can't have any profitability and then worse it can even manifest in empty shelves and less inventory. So we really are the ones who are losing here. And I just want to highlight the difference in these two state strategies. Like on the one hand you have a state over in China which is not just they don't care about Amazon in their own way. Right, because they control it. Instead they care about the suppliers that I just talked about. Those are the backbone of the United States economy and they're the exact people who are not being helped right now by government policy. In fact, they're the ones with, who are freezing cash flow, have a lot of inventory uncertainty. They're the ones who are not placing, right, they're the ones not placing their orders in this dramatic freight drop off from China. And so watching that I actually in a lot of ways it's just like Covid, all the big companies, the Fortune 500, they made off like bandits. You know, who are the people who went bankrupt, small business, you had restaurants, you know, employees, contractors and others. Those are the people that really suffer in something like this. And so that's where I want to zoom out of even just Trump and Amazon. And like this is about meta high level strategy and just watch at who's playing the game and who's actually winning that game.

[Ryan Grim]

And in the war with reality, this is a serious skirmish because think about what the administration is objecting to. If there are increases that are the direct result of the importers having to pay this tariff, they're saying, you cannot convey that reality to your consumers. We will not allow it. Yet reality exists. And so we can put up a five. So UPS announced that despite having strong profits for the first quarter, it's planning in the future going Forward to cut 20,000 jobs. Part of this is these are companies that are always looking to lay off workers for any excuse they can find. But the excuse that they're finding here is that their main client Amazon isn't shipping as much stuff. And so while Amazon is, you're right, going to be able to tell its suppliers, we will not be accepting price increases, I've seen some of those emails that have gone around. It's an amazing thing to read. We will not be accepting price increases. How cool would that be to be able to walk into a store and be like, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm just, I don't accept price increases. So just going to, I'm just going to pay what this used to cost. Despite that power, they're still shipping less stuff because they don't have complete absolute control over everything. And as a result, there's less for UPS drivers to do. And so that's just one of the many, kind of, to borrow a Reagan phrase, trickle down effects that we're going to, that we're going to see from this. The other reality interference is Besant getting asked about where they are with China at this point. So let's roll the Treasury Secretary. The Chinese continue to say that the.

[Emily Jashinsky]

US and China are not engaged in any consultation or negotiation on tariffs.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You recently said you've talked to your.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Counterpart, but more about traditional things like financial stability. So can you clarify, is the administration talking to Beijing specifically about tariffs or not?

[Chernobyl]

Well, we're not going to talk about who's talking to whom, but I think that, you know, over time we will see that the Chinese tariffs are unsustainable for China. I saw, I've seen some very large numbers over the past few days to show if these numbers stay on, Chinese could lose 10 million jobs very quickly.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Quickly.

[Ryan Grim]

And even if there is a drop.

[Chernobyl]

In the tariffs, that they could lose 5 million jobs. So remember that we are the deficit country.

[Krystal Ball]

They sell almost five times more goods.

[Ryan Grim]

To us than we sell to them.

[Chernobyl]

So the Onus will be on them to the take off these tariffs. They're unsustainable for them, and they are.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Saying you guys are not talking about it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So is that true?

[Chernobyl]

Look, they have a different form of government. They're playing to a different audience. So I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty again of who's talking to whom. But as I said, I believe for the Chinese, these tariffs are unsustainable.

[Ryan Grim]

Very quickly.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Two days ago, you said you didn't.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Know if President Trump had spoken to Xi Jinping. Do you know now?

[Ryan Grim]

Again, I would say Caroline and I.

[Chernobyl]

Have a lot of jobs around the White House. Running the switchboard in one of them.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Running the switchboard.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Do they still have switchboards? The switchboards is still a thing.

[Emily Jashinsky]

That's actually a really good question.

[Ryan Grim]

Did she come through the switchboard? I know. God, I know. I meant to ask. Did he talk to she? Shoot, I saw him and I forgot to ask.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, well, let's interpret. They're not talking. They're not talking at any level. It's not happening. Go ahead, Emily.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Well, no, that's exactly what I was just going to say. Framing whether they're even talking to China as the quote, unquote, nitty gritty is completely wild.

[Ryan Grim]

No gritty.

[Emily Jashinsky]

There's nothing nitty or gritty about that question. It's really the question for the entire global economy right now, and they don't have an answer to it, which is why they are framing it as the nitty gritty. Anyone else want to weigh in before we go to Howard Lutnick?

[Sagar Enjeti]

I mean, I just think broadly, again, like, this is why we've seen such wild market swings, is that the administration just is addicted to floating these things, which are just not true. Like anybody with any expertise, China watcher, the Chinese. But this is the other thing. You don't need to speak Chinese. The Chinese Foreign Ministry hooks that puts out statements in English. We've never talked. We're not talking. We have nothing to discuss. Take the tariffs off and that's it. By the way, it's not just China. And this is actually what's concerning me the most. Remember in Japan, Japan was held up as the first trade deal. They came here first. The Japanese Prime Minister giving a speech in the parliament. We are not going to concede to aggressive US Demands. In fact, the current position of the Japanese Economic Ministry is you must take the tariffs off before we're able to talk. Okay, that's the Japanese. Those are the people who we are friends with the administration is now floating some trade deal with India. You know what's really funny about that too is it reveals how much of this is bullshit because Scott Besant actually said, actually a trade deal with India is a lot easier because they have lots of tariffs, but less non trade barrier, non tariff barriers. Right. And so he's like, we can actually come to some sort of negotiation. But the problem is that the administration does not have any genuine definition that they can even point to of a non tariff barrier. They're basically like going back through their records and trying to make stuff up. And it comes back to the way that they talked with the Japanese. Remember, the Japanese have a zero. Let me reiterate this, a zero percent tariff on American cars. It is not because of tariffs. There are a lot of non tariff barriers. We can talk about that if you want. But then, you know, whenever the Japanese came here and they're like, so what do you want? You guys said this is reciprocal tariffs. And they're like, well what are you offering? They're like, I can't even do. How am I supposed to do business with you? So I mean, just what I want to highlight is that Scott Bessant, Howard Lotnick and others are complete and Trump are just completely schizophrenic in their messaging. And then, I mean, broadly, I know you guys have been talking about this is, it is going to set in for people very soon. That freight drop 60% that's showing up okay, sometime in June. You know, it's, it's very, you know, my wife, you know, obviously we're doing with all this baby stuff right now, she's like, hey, should we order that infant car seat? You know, and it's not about the tariffs. Are we going to be able to get one six months from now? What about diapers? You know, I'm, I'm going through researching where the diapers that we're going to buy from are made just to make sure. Hey, should I go and stockpile right now? You know, 99% by the way of kids toys. Ryan, as a parent, when do kids need toys? Actually curious.

[Ryan Grim]

I mean you can get the, the ones that stuff in their mouth like almost immediately, like the little pinkies and stuff. Like pretty.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Guess what?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Over 95% of that is made in China, right? You know, 95%. So, you know, hope my kid is a Luddite. You know, just deal with the no toys. Or maybe it's, maybe they're better off, right? Maybe I should, you know, go back to hand Whittling. And yeah, I mean, the reusable diapers.

[Ryan Grim]

Reusable diapers are good. They've gotten a lot better. And they're probably made in China, too. So you better get.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, those are also made. Go ahead, Emily.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Well, no, I was gonna say to Sager's point, we have a clip of Howard Lutnick. This is Sager's point about how the administration is addicted to floating things out into the public. And maybe it is just the sort of online addling of the American mind where they love seeing the market shoot up. So they say stuff like this on cnbc. But Howard Lutnick sat for a long interview on CNBC yesterday and we have some clips of that where he's talking, he's pushed on the question of these deals. Let's take a listen to what he said.

[Ryan Grim]

If we get a headline that we've signed some deal with China and whatever.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You know, the markets are going to rip.

[Donald Trump]

So.

[Krystal Ball]

Or actually I shouldn't say, would you say that?

[Donald Trump]

Well, Treasury Secretary Besson is focused on China. That's his, that's his portfolio. He's got to get something done with China. And my portfolio is the rest of the world's trade deals. So they are big portfolio. Oh, it's, it's the greatest thing because we have every country in the world, just like Donald Trump has said, who wants to do a deal with us? Now, here's the point. I have a deal. Done, done, done, done. But I need to wait for their prime minister and their parliament to give its approval, which I expect shortly. I'm not going to tell you what.

[Krystal Ball]

Country let the president. It's just you and me here and.

[Donald Trump]

A couple million people hopefully will let the president. So and then there are country after country where we're just working through the details. But you have to remember they have prime ministers, they have parliament. They have to work through their process. But all of these are going to be coming. And what they're going to be is they're going to be incredibly smart. And key is where are you going to find the people to work here?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right.

[Donald Trump]

You're north of Phoenix. Where are they coming?

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's right.

[Donald Trump]

You go to the community colleges and you train people. So all the community colleges around here, Arizona State's on a Grand Canyon. All these community colleges here are training people right now technicians. And these are really good paying jobs. Started 70s, 80s, $90,000. These are tradecraft. It's time to train people not to do the jobs of the past, but to do the great jobs of the future. You know, this is the new model where you work in these kind of plants for the rest of your life and your kids work here and your grandkids work here. You know, we let the auto plants go overseas right now. You should see an auto plant. It's highly automated. But the people, the four or five thousand people who work there, they are trained to take care of those robotic arms. They're trained to keep the air conditioning.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You take a lot of.

[Emily Jashinsky]

All right, so who wants to take a guess at what Howard Lutnick's deal that he referenced there is? Because I don't think we know.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, we don't know. I mean, look, all the current reports are that it's India. You know, I've even talked about this. Look, the Indians, yeah, they'll offer you some, like, fake tariffs and all these other things, but this is also the inconsistency that drives me crazy. India is one of the most protective developing economies in the entire world. We're talking about Japan. Non trade tariff barriers. That's a joke compared to what India does. I mean, listen, don't ask me. Go and ask anybody who's ever tried to go do business over there.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, just talked about yesterday.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Any of these folks. It's true. I mean, listen, no, hate. They're doing what they need to do because they believe in a protective economy. They don't want another country to be able to have any say over its global affairs. I respect that. But let's be serious here and not say that this is not one of the most difficult markets in the entire world for any US Company to do business in. That is just obvious. And yet, you know, they're willing to take reciprocal tariffs, maybe there, but they're not willing to take it over with Japan. The whole thing is just preposterous. And you know, the level of uncertainty that they've injected now, you know, into the small business supply chain. And honestly, even the pain that they are already. Listen, the tariffs go off tomorrow. Doesn't matter. That's still an entire, what, month? Maybe quarter of economic growth wiped out like that? And for a small business, I mean, look, it's only, what, 7 to 10%? But I run a small business here with crystal. I mean, can we really go a quarter with, like, no money? I don't really know a business that could do that, you know, or if you can, you know, maybe you can make it work. But that's a. That's a lot of stress. That's. That's a heart attacks that, that's, you know, people getting fired, having to ask people to take, you know, oh, can I, can I pay you in 60 days? You know, that type of thing. You don't want to be doing that to your vendor. That has all cascading effects all throughout the economy.

[Krystal Ball]

Not everyone who handles your personal information is going to be as careful as you are. And it only takes one mistake to expose it to hackers and identity theft. Maybe that's why there's a new victim of identity theft every five seconds in the United States. Fortunately, there's Lifelock. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning Lifelock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft. You can't control how diligent others are with your personal information, but with Lifelock, you can help protect it. Act now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iHEART or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off. Terms apply.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Click fast and save big shopourblinds.com Spring Cyber Monday Sale happening right now. And elevate your space with brand new custom window treatments. Today, blinds.com is the number one online retailer for custom window treatments, offering you professional support and styles that fit any budget, from classic shutters and bamboo shades, even motorized shades for your outdoor space. Blinds.com has something for everyone with honest upfront pricing and no hidden fees. DIY or let us handle everything from measure to install. Blinds.com makes it easy with free virtual consultations. Our design experts will help guide you you from start to finish with free samples sent directly to you so you can try before you buy. Plus, every order includes our 100% satisfaction guarantee. ShopBlinds.com's Spring Cyber Monday sale going on right now. Save up to 45% with minimum purchase. Plus get a free professional measure up to 45% [e-mail] rules and restrictions may apply.

[Dasha Burns]

Ugh.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Spam calls sound familiar?

[Ryan Grim]

Introducing line two Get a second phone.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Number right on your existing phone. Imagine discounts, appointments, online forms. Handle it all without giving out your personal number.

[Ryan Grim]

It's like having a secret weapon against spam.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And when those unwanted calls sneak through. Boom. Blocked.

[Ryan Grim]

No more interruptions, no more stress Stay connected, stay protected, keep your main number safe and out of harm's way.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Ready to take back your phone, visit line2.com audio or download line2 in the app Store today.

[Ryan Grim]

If you think about the blood, sweat and tears that has gone into so many of these businesses, when you talk about the pain like that's the part that has really been hitting me. And actually over at Dropsite, I think we've seen a plateauing even though we're not importing anything. But just as people I think are pinching their pennies more because consumer confidence has completely collapsed, it's so hard to build a small or medium sized business and people put their entire lives into it and then their lives depend on it and sometimes they're through no fault of their own. The rug just being ripped out from under them is just brutal.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah. And sometimes small towns are revolving around these small businesses. And to Howard Lutnick's suggestion that we are bringing all these jobs, blah, blah, blah, this administration has no industrial policy to train these workers to augment changes in the market, to augment what might happen to small businesses. They actually have nothing. And so I think it's fairly audacious for Howard Lutnick to come out and talk about all of these things that should happen that are going to happen while the administration really, it's asagar. Maybe I've missed something. Are they doing, are they putting any policy forward that is helping workers and helping communities and helping the economy broadly shift to meet the changes that they're inducing?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, I mean, I've been off the grid the last couple days dealing with all this stuff, but unless anything is broken in the last four days, you know, you can enlighten me. I mean the current position of the United States government is that you will be charged a massive surcharge if you do, if you import anything abroad, even if you build it here in the United States. And thus it is incumbent upon you to eat into your margin to invest here in America. Okay, I mean, look, we, we could talk numbers. Let's say 10 for 10, as in I would take 10% of my margin and you give me a 10% break on taxes. Everybody wins, right? You know, I invest a little bit here. Capex is super expensive. Ask anybody who's ever built anything in the physical world. And so I don't see a, I don't see one single proposal. In fact, the only civil war that I can see happening right now in Congress for Republicans is whether or not to cut Medicare or Medicaid. That's that's a whole other discussion. But we're not even talking about tax breaks for people who are small businesses or write offs or any of this. If anything, actually, as I understand it, they want to take a lot of that away. It's called 40, it's like 45x I think is a manufacturing tax credit which was built into the inflation reduction Act. They want to get rid of that. Okay. And that was one of the only things that got, you know, some of these companies to actually build and invest. Now listen, it's fine, you know the objection from the Republicans like, oh, that's all this green energy bs Fine, expand it for everything, make it for oil, I don't care, you know, do whatever, just, just make sure that it builds something here in America. If anything, you just like, yeah, you're right, it shouldn't be totally restricted to renewables or whatever. Build it for everything, you know, for, for the entire, you know, made in America. And then the green, the green energy can get it, everybody can get it. Fine, if that's what we want to do. But you don't even hear that right, because it's, this is why it's just all, it's just there's nothing to it beyond the surface level.

[Ryan Grim]

And on your Medicaid point. Oh no, on your Medicaid point. Real quickly, Bernie Moreno, the Ohio Republican new freshman senator, just came out and told the House, forget it with your Medicaid cuts. Like those are cuts, you're calling them not cuts. We see them as cuts and we're not doing it. So you know, the nos always win in Congress. So even that is struggling. Wanted to finish though with speaking of reality. Usually we go to which one of.

[Emily Jashinsky]

You put Chinese propaganda in the rundown? Usually we go to honestly known this time.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. So but usually when it comes to, when it comes to the US side, you can disagree or agree with them, but it's more likely to be based in reality. And the Chinese are the ones that are going to give you just flagrant nonsense propaganda in this case. This is what the Chinese are putting out in English through their Ministry of Foreign affairs website, basically in response. So trying to buck up the entire world against us, but also in response to the claims from the United States government that there are some deals. No, there are conversations happening, getting down to the nitty gritty. So this is a much longer video, but just a little slice of it. Watch this and then ask yourself, is this a video made by a country that is engaged earnestly in negotiations in a good Faith way with a partner at the moment. So let's roll this from the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The US has stirred up a global.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Tariff storm and deliberately targeted china. Playing a 90 day pause game with other nations, forcing them to limit trade with China.

[Ryan Grim]

This is just like the deadly trap of the eye of the storm. Bowing to a bully is like drinking.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Poison to quench thirst.

[Ryan Grim]

It only deepens the crisis. The US Once accused Japan of dumping.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Semiconductors and crushed companies like Toshiba. Later, it forced Japan to sign the Plaza Accord, pushing the economy into decades of anemic growth.

[Ryan Grim]

The US Also used long arm jurisdiction.

[Sagar Enjeti]

As a weapon, breaking up France's industrial.

[Ryan Grim]

Giant Alstom, robbing the country of a national champion. History has proven compromise won't earn you mercy. Kneeling only invites more bullying. China won't kneel down. All right, Sagar, so does that sound like a country that's taking Trump's calls right now?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it's just not. I mean, and you're right, you know, the other final irony here is about TikTok. Like, I again want to highlight that Donald Trump is trying to save TikTok and the Chinese are like, great. And so they are flooding TikTok with stuff like that and targeting America's. I mean, I warned this would happen. We tried to ban it. You were the one who decided you were a king and that you were just going to subvert, you know, U.S. law and say that I'm not going to, Ben. And it's like, you know what, I just feel like that scene in the Joker, I'm like, you get what you deserve, man. You know, you have the entire population. You have the entire population which is getting China pilled. I personally really like this guy. We played him here on the show and he was like, hey, America, here's how many things made in my house from America. He goes, do you have anything made in your house from China? I love this dude. I watch all of his videos.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Because you only have a house because of America, though.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, yeah, but, you know, he's. He actually used to live here and so he. He understands us and he'll just constantly be hitting back and someone will be like, hey, what about 1989? And he's like, this is so. He goes, you are so imbued with propaganda. And then he'll list off like Kent State and all these other. And I was like, hey, listen, I mean, the guy has a point. You know what kind of say?

[Ryan Grim]

Well, as Trump says, you know what? You think we're not killers?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, you Think we're. No. What do you say? We think you're so innocent. You think we're so innocent. And there's something just refreshing, I think about watching that now pervade because look, I mean, I don't even think it should be here, but Trump is actively, is the person who wants to save it and is now paying the price for the very thing that he, that he, that he's now trying to do with respect to tariffs. It's just amazing. You know, I wasn't able to join you guys for the 100 day episode and it's like, it's crazy. I, you know, to watch them in the same breath. This is the most successful hundred days ever. You know, I have a great FDR 100 a day book behind me and I'm like, this is a joke compared to, I mean, what a joke. All we have seen is just, I mean, Doge is a massive. Listen, we take their claim, I like to take people's claims and take the, take the subjectivity out of it and just be like, okay, you said you're going to cut 2 trillion. Now it's going to be like 15 billion at best, right? At best in terms of. Because they said 150 and of that actually 135 is fake. So 15 billion, wow, congratulations. That's like maybe what, less than a day of overall.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I feel like I can do that in an hour with the budget.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, okay, so thanks then. What? Mass deportation? No numbers are exactly the same as Obama and does Bush. Instead, you know, you've ignited all of this. Basically you've had open a massive credibility gap with the whole enemies aliens act. Trump is out there actually claiming that the ms.13 thing is real on Abraco Garcia's knuckles. Like that's the level of discourse which we've been subjected to. Signal gate, the cease fire in Gaza, you know, fell apart. Cease fire in Ukraine. Nothing there is currently happening. I mean, the, Honestly, the only, I would say there are only two like A grades from my perspective again, in terms of what they said they were going to do. One is the Iran negotiations, which as you and I know, very tenuous. And that could blow up at any time. And the border crossings, they actually did accomplish that. Beyond that, I mean, I don't know, I would probably give them an F on every single one of the ways that this has been implemented again, both by its success, its implementation, and then syncing your goodwill with the overall American public. Now it's Trump. Can he come back? Yeah, you know, listen, you know you'd be an idiot at this point to count him out entirely. But I don't know. I don't really know where things go from here.

[Ryan Grim]

And Trump seems to not be usually Trump's genius is a tactile feel for where the American public is. He seems to have completely lost it, and he seems to be in a bubble. And we'll talk about that more in this next segment. We'll have ADP jobs report, we'll have GDP numbers, and we've got Trump's interview with Terry Moran. Stick around for that. You know that feeling when you're about to score 30% off, but they want your number? Ugh. Give them your line 2 number instead. It's a second line on your phone, perfect for nabbing promo codes without inviting spam to your party. Sign up for every discount under the sun, then block the junk texts that follow.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You get all the perks, but none.

[Ryan Grim]

Of the spammy baggage. More codes, less chaos. Visit line2.com audio or download line2 in the app Store and get your shopping sidekick today because the only thing blowing up your phone should be good deals. Hey, my name's Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I just had a great conversation with Michelle Obama, to whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from am I doing enough me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist?

[Krystal Ball]

So let's unpack that.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Former first lady Michelle Obama and someone who knows her best, her big brother.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Craig, will be hosting a podcast called imo. What have been your personal journeys with therapy? We need to be coached throughout our lives.

[Ryan Grim]

My mom wanted us to be independent, independent children, and she would always tell me, stop worrying about your sister.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. What would you say has been the most hardest recent test of Thea Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lod, and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. We are back in a big way, in a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner.

[Chernobyl]

It's just the compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves.

[Krystal Ball]

Music stars, Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne.

[Ryan Grim]

We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug thing is.

[Krystal Ball]

Benny the Butcher, Brent Smith from Shinedown. Got Be Real from Cypress Hill, NHL enforcer Riley Cote. Marine Corvette MMA fighter Liz Caramouche.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things. Stories matter and it brings a face to them.

[Krystal Ball]

It makes it real.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It really does.

[Krystal Ball]

It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Ryan Grim]

GDP and job numbers are out, and neither are looking very good. Let's put this first element up on the screen. Economists had expected something around a 0.4% year over year increase in instead we got a 0.3% drop, the first contraction of the economy since the pandemic. ADP private payroll numbers also came out. They rose at only 62,000 jobs. Dow Jones and others had been expecting more like 150,000 jobs added to the payrolls. So only 62 is being received by the markets as a huge problem Now. Sagra the GDP is interesting in the way that it factors in imports. Obviously the D stands for domestic and so imports are kind of subtracted out. What you saw in March was this massive surge in purchasing of imports to get ready for Liberation Day, because Trump said Liberation Day is coming, so everybody batting down the hatches. And so it's not supposed to count around GDP because you know, it counts and then it gets subtracted back out. But money that you would spend on imports is money that you just by definition don't have to spend on on something else. You know, think about it in terms of a household. If you, if you need, you know, to do some landscaping and you need to buy a new refrigerator and all of a sudden you got to buy the fridge, you're not going to do the landscaping or whatever. Like so, so, so some domestic things didn't get done because of the imports. So that did play a role. But what do you make of the first contraction? And this is March, so we're, and we're talking about ending March 31st. So this, well, these numbers do not count.

[Emily Jashinsky]

April, Liberation day was actually April 6.

[Ryan Grim]

April 2, because they didn't want it to be April Fool's Day.

[Emily Jashinsky]

That's right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I want people to not pay attention to the top number and instead look at the trend. So the overall trend is that yes, it was because of good imports, but it was consumption slowed to just 1.8%, down from 4% at the end of 2024. So that shows almost a. What is that 100% reduction in consumption that happened in just a three month period. That's devastating, you know, to a lot of businesses. And quote, final sales to domestic purchasers came in at just 2.3%, down from about 3% at the age of 2024. Those two things are what matter, I think, even more than the import craziness, because this is from Heather Long. If you set aside the import craziness, the economy slowed in the Trump early days, but it didn't collapse. That said, the risk of recession is now real with the hefty tariff. So for me, the decline in consumption is the number one story. It fits with the consumer confidence index falling to 2022. And it also just shows us, you know, what a contraction can look like. Because if we have high import duties, low consumption, mass layoffs or at least some sort of layoffs, you have high, you know, unemployment or higher unemployment and interest rates have to remain high because technically inflation will still remain at least, you know, baseline of kind of where it is right now. You're going to have the stagflation type scenario which is externally affected. And I actually don't even think it fits that neatly into a box. The consumption figure screams volumes because that is uncertainty. That's you, that's me, that's Ryan, Emily and all of us where even subconsciously, right before we're about to make a purchase. Do I really need this right now? Should I just be putting this in the bank?

[Emily Jashinsky]

Let me tell you, should I keep, keep doing this?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Oh, really?

[Ryan Grim]

Just buying it?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. I mean, honestly, I notice I didn't include my wife.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Women be shopping women. All right. Yeah. The point is, is that as that manifests across the economy, you see the ups, you know, style stuff, you see a few of the plants and these other things, layoffs begin to happen. Consumer retail is going to start to get slowly dragged down. And that is when you see, you know, things I always think about gift shops, candle shops in a nice tourist area, you're dead. If you see a 20%, you know, reduction in overall visitors and the people who are visiting have, like, have, you know, are on a tighter budget, you're done.

[Ryan Grim]

And your inventory costs upstate New York. Yeah, yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Your inventory costs twice as much. If you're in upstate New York or in Washington and you're heavily reliant on Canadians, you're dead. Are you guys seeing this stuff out of Vegas about how Vegas is devastating right now? Absolutely devastated. They're like their occupancy rate is, is apparently low. I just saw Nate Silver, he was like, oh, I'm booking my rooms for the wsop that's coming up. And it's more some of the lowest rates that I've ever seen. A lot of it is from international travel and also just broad consumption.

[Ryan Grim]

And the tourism point is a key one because the biggest bright spot in the jobs report was in leisure and hospitality. So that's March. We know for a fact that in April, the biggest bright spot turned very dark. It is getting quite ugly. And we can put up this chart, which I believe is B2, which goes exactly to Sager's point. This is the consumer confidence index. Obviously, sometimes there are material reasons for the number going from, you know, straight downward towards the floor. If you look at 2007, 8, 9, we know why it crashed back then. We look at 2020, we know why it crashed then. That's the pandemic. This one is completely driven by decisions just made for effectively very little reason by Donald Trump. He just decided to do this thing and as a result, you see this number just spiking down to the floor. And when the consumer economy makes up so much of our economic capacity and you have people pulling back, that has a ripple effect that's going to be felt throughout the economy.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Futures are sliding. Dow is down about 350 points since the news came out.

[Ryan Grim]

And I would think that, who knows how the market's going to handle it. But you would think that Trump's interview last night as well would not inspire much confidence in the markets. Let's play just this one thought. B3 from Terry Moran and Donald Trump last night.

[Donald Trump]

We basically have an embargo on China. Look, you're trying to say something's going to happen. Nothing's going to happen. You know business. I want to ask you. I do know business. So 145% tariffs on China and that is basically an embargo. They deserve it. It'll raise prices on everything from electronics to clothing to building houses. You don't know that. You don't know whether or not China is going to mathematics. China probably will eat those tariffs, but at 145, they basically can't do much business with the United States. And they were making from us $1 trillion a year. They were ripping us off like nobody's ever ripped us off. And by the way, way we have other countries that were just as bad. If you look at the European Union, it was terrible what they've done to us Every country, almost every country in the world was ripping us off. They're not doing that anymore.

[Ryan Grim]

I want you to think that inspire any confidence.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, yeah, you're right, Ryan. I mean, it's one of those where really, what you're watching, I mean, what Trump also says is he'll be like, oh, we're having all these jobs come back. And they're telling me it's amazing. It's like, there's not what. That's just not true. I mean, you literally listen to the CEO, Walmart, Target. They're like, we told them it would be devastating. That's what they said Empirical about. I mean, you know, the other really gross part about all this is how the auto manufacturers are basically just shaking Trump down for exemptions, which he announced in Michigan. And it's like, okay, so what are we doing here exactly? So we don't have exemptions, or actually, we do. And by the way, the tariffs are also going to apply to Toyota if they build in America. So why would Toyota continue to build in America? Can anyone riddle me that one? If you're toy, if you're Toyota, I just feel like, screw it, you know, I'm done. Why would I even want to keep doing business here? It just, it does. It's preposterous. And it doesn't really make a whole bunch of sense. And broadly, that continues to shine through in Trump's interview. I mean, look, in a certain way, like, you get. You really get exactly what he should. Like what he is on the screen is exactly how he is. I can testify to that, you know, on a personal level, having met him a couple or interviewed him a couple of times. And so anybody who's thinking, like it's a performance or whatever, it's like his life is a performance. That's how he actually is in all of these meetings. So we'll see.

[Ryan Grim]

The one that scared me was when he said that tourism is way up.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, right, right. It's just delusional.

[Ryan Grim]

Terry Moran's like, yeah, I'm sorry, what up? No, it's not up. It's. It's way down. Like, these are not differences of opinion here. Like, either Las Vegas is a ghost town or it's not.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, well, and payroll, Ryan, he should.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Ask Steve Wyckoff, the last developer.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Well, Trump got his own property in Vegas.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's true. Yeah. Check the Trump numbers in Vegas. Actually, honestly, someone should go and track where the room rates at the Trump International in Vegas and see how they have trended from November all the way until today. That'd be a good, like chatgpt task or something. I mean, look, I could be wrong only because it is Trump and there's a lot of maga boomers out there who will pay a premium just to stay at a Trump property. But you know, I wouldn't be surprised if they're not completely insulated from any sort of economic downTurn.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, so ADP, their report showed private payroll growth slowed in April to 62,000. The Dow estimate for that was 120,000. So another negative indicator. But if you're worried about all of this, I have good news. We can roll the final thought. Chuck Schumer is on the case. Let's play B4.

[Krystal Ball]

Of all the crazy things the Republicans.

[Donald Trump]

Want to do, now they want a car tax? Hell no.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Hell no. Not at the end of the car tax.

[Ryan Grim]

Hell no.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I'm inspired. I'm personally inspired by that.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I feel good.

[Ryan Grim]

We're done. Our job here is done. Let's move on to the influencers.

[Krystal Ball]

Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24,7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care.

[Ryan Grim]

Hey, my name is Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I just had a great conversation with Michelle Obama, to whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from. Am I doing enough me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist?

[Krystal Ball]

So let's unpack that.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Former first lady Michelle Obama and someone who knows her best, her big brother.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Craig, will be hosting a podcast called imo. What have been your personal journeys with therapy? We need to be coached throughout our lives.

[Ryan Grim]

My mom wanted us to be independent children and she would always tell me, stop worrying about your sister.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. What would you say has been the most hardest recent test of fear? Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. We are back in a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner.

[Chernobyl]

It's just the compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves.

[Krystal Ball]

Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne for.

[Ryan Grim]

Brothers Osborne, we have the misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug thing is.

[Krystal Ball]

Benny the Butcher, Brent Smith from Shinedown got be real from Cypress Hill, NHL enforcer Riley Cote, Marine Corvette MMA fighter Liz Caramouche.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things. Stories matter and it brings a face to them.

[Krystal Ball]

It makes it real.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It really does.

[Krystal Ball]

It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Well, the White House started its influencer briefings this week. I think we're two influencer briefings in there have been There was one on Monday, one on Tuesday. We'll see where they go going forward. Now there are some moments from these briefings that are going massively viral because they are cringe inducing, painful and nobody is wrong to cringe at them. My very unpopular take is that the moments that aren't going viral have actually not been that bad. So before I make my very unpopular argument and do battle with Ryan and Sager, let's roll. I don't even want to do it. Let's roll. This clip C one of the influencer briefing at the White House with Caroline Levitt over the first 100 days, the majority of policies that we've seen from the Trump administration have been either targeted at foreign affairs, such as bringing the American hostages home, or attempting to end the war between Ukraine and Russia, or on long term goals such as cutting government spending. With Doge, what policies can we expect to see rolled out over the next few months that Americans will directly feel the effects of? In order to secure the 2026 midterms for the party and keep his approval.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Rating historically high in the first hundred.

[Ryan Grim]

Days is that the White House is crawling with kids.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You have a young, beautiful baby boy. There are babies everywhere. There's so many young folks on staff who have kids. But the last four years under Joe Biden, parents are really stressed and ravaged. They had to take on two or three extra jobs.

[Ryan Grim]

Depression rates were up.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Suicide rates were up. You're a very high Profile young mother who seems to juggle and balance it all beautifully.

[Ryan Grim]

What advice do you have?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Young parents out there who are starting their careers, having kids, building families and trying to find that balance so desperately.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah. Well, it's a great question. And first to the heart of your premise. It's true. The president has empowered not just me as a young mother in this role, but there are so many new moms and dads on our senior staff in the West Wing, but also across the entire administration. Can't forget the dads. There's one from the first briefing on Monday that we're going to roll. We've got some more information on the influencer. Let's go ahead and play C2 here.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Thank you for having us here. I've noticed this is kind of like a repeat of 2016. The legacy media has gone back to not reporting anything on President Trump. In the beginning, we had them reporting everything that he was doing. Now they're kind of going back again to not reporting everything that he is actually doing. I'm kind of the nerd when it comes to reporting. I'm not the headline news girl. I'm the nuts and bolts. I'm the policy type nerd. So what direction do you advise, kind of me to go into, like the White House files that y'all send out every single day? Because that's what people are used to when they want to ask me questions. They want to know kind of like the nuts and bolts of everything.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Okay, guys, go ahead and react.

[Ryan Grim]

Where do we want to start?

[Sagar Enjeti]

That reminds me of Brian Stelter asking Jen Psaki what can we as the media do better? And that was ridiculed then. It should be ridiculed now. And look, I think brought an Emily. This is the thing. I'm not objecting to everybody in the briefing room. I am friends with a lot, a lot of those people. I mean, my man Pomp was there sitting in the background. But my point is not about that. It's actually a philosophical thing where the White House is just, here's my main message to a lot of these influencers. You are being used. They think you're a fucking joke. I just want to be honest with you.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Because let's talk about this. Who did Donald Trump choose to give his 100 day interviews to? The Atlantic, Time magazine, and Terry Moran at ABC News for an Oval Office sit down. Yeah. They'll invite you to your silly little briefing so you can glaze them about babies or whatever is going on. They don't respect you at all. So even though Trump will sit there and be like, wow, what a great question. Trump understands the optics are humiliating to actually sit down with somebody like that, you. And the White House does, too. You're a pawn. You're a joke. You're somebody there just to take up space and to piss off the media. Now, if you want to actually do your job, you should ask them questions which are critical. And, Ryan, I mean, I really think it's important for you to be able to talk about this, because you were once in a similar position in the Huffington Post. And what the Huffington Post expertly did under Barack Obama is they challenged Barack Obama from the left. And so the mission of conservative media should not be to glaze the Trump administration. It should be to challenge the Trump administration, say, why haven't you done these things that you promised on the campaign trail? Why are you allowing this? Why are you not doing? You should find internal contradictions. And I'm telling you, this is the way that I operated in the White House. And, hey, what do I know? I only got to interview the president four times in the Oval Office. The reason why I did it is not because I glazed them. In fact, I'll just reveal it public, privately. They would all say, yeah, we can't give this to, you know, whoever is. Is, like, is glazing us because we would look stupid.

[Ryan Grim]

Right?

[Sagar Enjeti]

They're like, when we bring you in, you're actually going to ask them critical questions. They, in a. They don't want the critical question, but they understand that that's part of the back and forth. So, Ryan, I think you should really go off on this a little bit because you had the experience. Oh, sorry. Emily, too.

[Emily Jashinsky]

No, I just want to interject to say my entire argument is, is what. The point that you're making here is that there actually were questions that didn't go viral from some of these influencers, people I don't even know who were coming at it from the right. And actually, Sean Spicer, of all people, asked Caroline Levitt why Donald Trump is sitting down with Jeffrey Goldberg and other people in the corporate press. Which I meant to post this, but I do a lot of, like, helping.

[Ryan Grim]

I was watching that. I was like, is that Sean Spicer?

[Chernobyl]

Yes.

[Ryan Grim]

What the hell is he doing in there?

[Emily Jashinsky]

But this is the thing. I don't know how many young conservative journalists I've said exactly what you just said Sager to. And I was meant to send that from Sean Spicer and be like, he actually understands this. This is the only way that you get respect is asking serious questions. So there were questions about Trump's promise for national reciprocity for gun owners. A great example of something that nobody in the mainstream media would ask. Ask about holding him to account for a promise from the right that nobody in the corporate press would ask about. Very legitimate question. Newsy question, when will the border wall be built? Another great question. That one didn't go viral. There was a question, this was from DC Drano about the timeline on the Epstein files. There was a question about reorganizations of the irs. There were some genuinely decent questions that didn't go viral. Now, to everyone's point, I just wanna say I agree that those viral moments speak to something really like rotten in conservative media MAGA media. And I'm also very curious to hear Ryan's thoughts on this because he actually did exactly what you said, Sager, which is the right way to approach this job. Not just for being more successful, but also just doing your damn job and respecting your viewers and your audience. So Ryan, tell us.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, yeah, Sager has this exactly right. That if you are a journalist with a perspective, whether, you know, you guys on the right, me on the left, it's actually easier to do your job when there's a center left. If you're a left wing journalist and there's a center left president in power, attacking them from the left is kind of a lot easier to do real interesting work than it is when there's a right wing president. Because it's not interesting that the Huffington Post thinks that Donald Trump is wrong about X, Y and Z because they also think he's wrong about A, B, C, D, E, F, G, everything. But when it comes to somebody that you're a little bit closer with, you're able to earnestly say, hey, you ran on breaking up the big banks. And now we're hearing that Larry Summers is saying you can't break up the big banks. You know, you ran on making sure that there is a public option for people who can't afford insurance. We hear that you're talking to Big Pharma about getting, you know, making sure that that's not even in the bill and finding the gap between what they ran on and what they're actually doing is where the good, good journalism is. You drive, drive that wedge in there and you can do it more effectively if you actually care.

[Emily Jashinsky]

And it's your value. Right, because you're filling blind spots. The entire point of this. That's why I actually like the National Reciprocity for Gun owners question was I thought such a good illustration like this is your value in the briefing room, is that you are bringing a perspective that is underrepresented in the media, despite being represented more evenly throughout the rest of the population. Trump voters care about the promise he made on gun reciprocity. They care about the border wall, but their questions aren't represented in the briefing room. So it's not only a value add for you to be tough on some of these questions from the right, it also will be more successful. So, like, if you want to be successful, you're being stupid by being a lap dog.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And that's the thing. They just don't understand. And again, Trump understands this. That's why he, at the end of the day, is not choosing any of these people to sit down with. And, you know, I just don't know because I wonder also if it's an audience thing, because there has been so much of a MAGA pill taken by a lot of people who are influencers online where, you know, because they've created a feedback loop through which everything. All they do is glaze Donald Trump all the time, that they don't even have the space or the trust with their audience to be able to challenge Trump. And so they find it existentially dangerous. I mean, I think it would be fascinating to watch any of these, like, former free speech warriors go in there and ask about the Palestine thing. Right. Because that would throw them off their game, too. They have. They. Here's the other thing, too, that people need to understand. It's also about mindset. So the mindset of a White House press secretary, when they walk into a normal briefing room, it's war. It's literal warfare. They're prepared, they're ready to do battle. But when she's walking in there, let me guarantee you she's not doing the level of preparation that they are whenever they go into the briefing room. That's when things get interesting. That's when things are very interesting, when you can hear what they actually think. I remember once in the first Trump administration, there was this great reporter. I think his name was Olivier Knox. I forget who we worked for at the time. And he was in a back and forth with Spicer, and. And he was just like, hey, what does victory look like in Afghanistan? Spicer was like, stable. And I was like, oh, interesting. You don't even know. I was like, what a great question. Right. You know, because it was one. It was so fascinating because he hadn't prepared for it at all. And hit him with something and he actually had to think on the spot. It might be one of the few honest moments of his entire care career. That's actually one of the best things that you could get. I mean, Ryan, you can talk about this too. Didn't Obama call you guys out specifically in like his first press conference in 09? And he's like, I could cure cancer. And the Huffington Post would say, you.

[Ryan Grim]

Know, I didn't do enough. It was even better. He said, he's, he said if I were, if, if the Huffington Post were covering Abraham Lincoln when he did the, when he did the Emancipation Proclamation, they would have highlighted the fact that it didn't apply to a few counties in West Virginia and to other counties under Confederate.

[Sagar Enjeti]

By the way, that's actually fair and true. That is what the liberator and those people said. Just so we're aware, Mr. President.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes. And we actually then wrote that article just for him because all of the radical Republican papers at the time said the same thing. Why are you so late on this? And why doesn't this cover everybody? And that's the role of that press. So it's like, yes. And yeah, he would call us out, he would call us out pretty regularly and we ate it up. And my favorite time was when the New York Times editorialized against Larry Summers for Fed Chair, but we had been just absolutely hammering him at the Huffington Post.

[Emily Jashinsky]

You were very pro Larry Summers for.

[Ryan Grim]

Fed Chair and he did not get it. And in a private meeting with Democrats, Obama complained about us and Larry Summers and not the New York Times. Cuz the New York Times editorial page wasn't moving the needle.

[Emily Jashinsky]

See, that's very interesting.

[Ryan Grim]

Right? That was what was getting his crawler.

[Sagar Enjeti]

See, and that's power. And look, I mean, none of these.

[Ryan Grim]

To your point, these influencers think that they're gonna get access by asking these glazing questions, when in fact, as you found with Trump, it's being adversarial and building your own authority that then forces them to answer your questions. And otherwise they're totally embarrassed. So it was the power that we built that forced them. They didn't love us, hated us, hated us more than they hated the Daily Caller, probably because they're like, oh, the Daily Caller, of course they're gonna beat us up.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But God, the Huffington Post, they don't listen. And you know, Emily, like you said, I have been on the phone with half of these people. They don't listen. They're taking their advice from social media. And I just, I think not only is it gonna age Poorly. Like, remember all of the stars of 2017 in the briefing room. April Ryan, Jim Acosta. How did it work out? You know, I mean, these people are jokes. We remember it as a joke. So, yeah, they got rich, you know, for a year or for two. Jim Acosta, Larry got fired from CNN because he's humiliating, you know, as part of his brand. Nobody looks back on his whole, like, fight, resist. What was the whole, like grabbing the microphone away from the intern. It was just. It literally is like mass psychosis. Right, that that was even considered acceptable. I think that's how most of these MAGA media people are going to look. They won't age and, you know, look, I mean, will they get away with it? Yeah, they definitely will. I mean, I've been watching to see the reception they get on, on social media. I think it's insane. Honestly, I don't really understand it.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Well, that's the point that I wanted to make. So I think the distinction between influencers and journalism is quite interesting as well, because to the point you were making about whether this is audience capture, that's really interesting because I think with some of these influencers, it's not even audience capture. It's that they want this access that's not about getting journalism right because they're not journalists, so they're not trying to break stories and move the ball forward. What they want is more access for socials. And that's a very different set of incentives. They want to be able to go with Kai Trump and Don Jr. And be behind the scenes at all of of these events because that's just sort of where their bread is buttered right now. They can get maybe sponsorships with it. And it's a different. I agree that it's a different set of incentives than breaking news. And obviously those incentives have crept into journalism itself too. But if you don't even think of yourself as a journalist, it's true that you have important big audiences. So there's theoretically a case for these influencer briefings, but they're not gonna be the same as the White House press briefing. Nevertheless, if you have serious questions, then you should ask the serious questions because it will be better off. You will actually be respected. Your audience will be interested in it because they are following you in that they think you are one of their fellow conservatives. So they probably have the same questions that you do about when the border wall is supposed to be done, despite all of the promises. So I mean, it's obviously, yes, it's silly. I hope some of these Good questions keep getting asked even if they're not going viral because this really ties a bow on everything we've just talked about. You don't go viral for asking a good question about.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Sometimes you do, though.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, you can, actually.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Sometimes you do. Yeah, right, right. That's what these other people don't get. It's like if you want real fame or like success or any of this stuff, you can get it by doing kind of what you're trying to do. But it's just.

[Emily Jashinsky]

It's harder.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Whatever. Yeah, it's much harder. It takes a level of intellectualism and history and of knowledge, you know, to get there. But, you know, they've chosen their path and I mean, I think they just look like a joke and that, you know, four years from now, they're not going to be able to even have a career. And from that point forward, like you, you got to ask existential questions because, look, all the warning signs were there and they're just feeding into this mass hysteria at the moment. So we'll see. We'll see how it goes.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, guys. So stop embarrassing yourselves. Let's move on now to Donald Trump's rally last night.

[Sagar Enjeti]

By the way, guys, thank you very much for, you know, dealing with my absences. There's a couple of just personal medical things going on, but everything is fine for right now and we are anxiously awaiting our baby. The kid is already a pain in the ass. He's not even born or he or she has not even been born yet. And so I'm sure that will manifest in their personality going forward. But just in case, this might be the very last time that you guys see me before labor and, you know, I'll take a few weeks off and all of that, so just thank you very much for bearing with me. I really appreciate you all. And back to Ryan and Emily.

[Krystal Ball]

Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24,7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care.

[Ryan Grim]

Hey, my name is Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I just had a great conversation with Michelle Obama, to whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from. Am I doing enough me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist? Therapists. So let's unpack that.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Former first lady Michelle Obama and someone who knows her best, her big brother.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Craig, will be hosting a podcast called imo. What have been your personal journeys with therapy? We need to be coached throughout our lives.

[Ryan Grim]

My mom wanted us to be independent children and she would always tell me, stop worrying about your sister.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. What would you say has been the most hardest recent test of fear? Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd. And this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. We are back in a big way, in a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This kind of star studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner.

[Chernobyl]

It's just the compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves.

[Krystal Ball]

Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne.

[Ryan Grim]

We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug thing is.

[Krystal Ball]

Benny the Butcher, Brent Smith from Shinedown. Be Real from Cypress Hill, NHL enforcer Riley Cote, Marine Corps vet, MMA fighter Liz Caramouche.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things. Stories matter and it brings a face to them.

[Krystal Ball]

It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast, Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and add free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Emily Jashinsky]

President Trump went to Michigan yesterday, had a little encounter with Gretchen Whitmer, but he was doing a rally on the occasion of his 100th day in office. And the crowd was sort of a typical Trump rally crowd. But given what's happened over the course of the first 100 days, there was one particularly interesting moment. We have a couple that we're gonna run, but let's play this first clip. After Donald Trump showed video of the alleged Ms. 13 members heading to El Salvador, ending up at SEACOT. This is what happened.

[Donald Trump]

And the worst of the worst are being sent to a no nonsense prison in El Salvador, Salvador. Why don't you watch? Watch this. Watch this. Take a look.

[Emily Jashinsky]

So there were usa, USA chants. Now Donald Trump also floated. Well he first said that he was going to serve two terms. Here's what's happened. Here's what happened after that. Let's roll this clip.

[Donald Trump]

It was so important to win because they used to say the fake news, to be a great president, you have to serve two terms. So now we're going to serve two terms. Now they've taken that one cross, right? Right, Dr. Oz. Cross that one off. Cross that one off. No, they say it all the time when I was out. They say, well, they go out.

[Emily Jashinsky]

It's like a fever dream. When he says, Right, Dr. Oz.

[Ryan Grim]

Right, Dr. Oz.

[Emily Jashinsky]

What's happening? But the crowd was chanting three. If you couldn't hear that, then Trump said, thank you. We actually already served three. Then one more clip.

[Ryan Grim]

This one is because he was elected in 2020. Is that what he means?

[Emily Jashinsky]

I think that's what he means. It's genuinely hard to say. This is his. Part of his interview. So the rally's happening. He's also sitting down for an interview with Terry Moran on ABC. Again, to mark the 100th day of the administration. Let's roll this clip. D3.

[Krystal Ball]

But the court has ordered you to facilitate that.

[Donald Trump]

I'm not the one making this decision. We have lawyers who want to do this, but the buck stops. Eyes off. No, no, no, no. I follow the law. You want me to follow the law. If I was a president that just wanted to do anything, I'd probably keep him right where he is. The Supreme Court says what the law is. Listen, I was elected to take care of a problem that was. It was a unforced error that was made by a very incompetent man, a man that turned out to be incompetent, that you always said was wonderful, a great genius, right? And now you find out, all of the media now, they're saying what a mistake they made. A man who was grossly incompetent allowed us to have open borders where millions of people float in. I campaigned on that issue. I wouldn't say it was my number one issue, but it was pretty close. I campaigned in that issue. I've done an amazing job. I have closed borders. He said, you couldn't do it. You wouldn't be able to do it. It would never happen. Well, it happened and it happened very quickly. Wait a minute. When we have criminals, Murderers, Criminals in this country. Country. We have to get him out. And we're doing it. And you'll pick out one man. But even the man that you picked out, he's got a. He said he wasn't a member of a gang. And then they looked, and on his knuckles, he had MS.13. There's a dispute. Wait a minute, wait a minute. He had MS.13 on his knuckles. He had some tattoos that are interpreted that way, but let's move on. Wait a minute. Terry, Terry, Terry. He did not have the letter M. S1. It says Ms. That was photoshopped. So let me. That was Photoshopped. Terry, you can't do that. Hey, they're giving you the big break of a lifetime. You know, you're doing the interview. I picked you because, frankly, I never heard of you. But that's okay. I picked you, Terry, but you're not being very nice. He had ms.13 tattoo.

[Krystal Ball]

We'll agree to disagree.

[Donald Trump]

I want to move on to something else. Terry, do you want me to show you the picture? I saw the picture. Well, can you think of his daughter? Chef, here we go.

[Krystal Ball]

Here we go.

[Donald Trump]

Don't Photoshop it. Go look at his hand. He did have tattoos that can be interpreted that way. I'm not an expert on them. I want to turn to Ukraine. I want to get to Ukraine. No, no, no, no. He had Ms. As clear as you can be. Not interpreted. This is why people no longer believe. Well, the news. Because when he was photographed in El. In El Salvador. They aren't there, but let's just go. They aren't there when he's in El Salvador. They're there now, right? No, but they're in your picture, Terry Ukraine. Sir, he's got MS.13 on his knuckles.

[Dasha Burns]

All right.

[Donald Trump]

Okay, we'll take a look. It's. You do such a disservice. We'll take a look at that. Why didn't you just say, yes, he does?

[Emily Jashinsky]

So Donald Trump clearly believes that he deported someone with Ms. 13 tattooed on his knuckles. The letters MISS and then the numbers 1, 3 tattooed on his knuckles. That would be Kilmore Abrego Garcia, who does have tattoos that experts some have said resemble what gang members might have. But to be very clear, Trump thinks it said MS.13 on his knuckles. What actually happened is that the White House put Ms. They Photoshopped. They actually did, to Terry Moran's point, Photoshop MS.13 Entrevoy picture of Kilmar Abrego Garcia's knuckles to sort of demonstrate they enhanced the picture of his knuckles so that the tattoos were more clearly visible and then put MS.13 on it. And there was debate when the White House released that photo as to whether they wanted people to believe it was Photoshopped or wanted people to believe that MS.13 actually had been tattooed on his knuckles. Donald Trump seems to have been.

[Ryan Grim]

Maybe he was the target of this hoax.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Seriously. Because, I mean, there was this actually somewhat interesting debate when that happened last week about whether or not people would actually believe the Photoshop or that it was very clearly indicating that they were just enhancing the picture. I was actually in the camp that was like, oh, this is so obviously Photoshopped, that what they're trying to do is just make it a graphic that indicates the tattoos are MS.13. Not that this is like. Cause they were like stenciled letters, like, you know, it didn't look real. But I guess if you're. Sorry, boomers, but I guess if you're.

[Ryan Grim]

A social media boomer without your bifocals.

[Emily Jashinsky]

He was duped by the Photoshop and genuinely believes that. Kilmar Abrego Garcia, all of this uproar, I mean, that changes the story significantly that Donald Trump believes The man has MS.13 tattooed on him. Because that's a confirmation, clear as day, that he is Ms. 13, meaning the Democrats that are fighting to keep him, the media that is fighting to keep him is coming from a very different place, right?

[Ryan Grim]

From Trump's addled perspective, he literally thinks that abrego Garcia has MS.13 tattooed on his fingers. And then he's like, God, what is wrong with these Democrats and the media, right, that are, like, fighting over this guy who is.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Some Republicans, by the way, who are unhappy with the decision.

[Ryan Grim]

25Th Amendment time. Whoever is the marshal of the Supreme Court from this first term who never showed up to arrest Trump, like, 25th Amendment man. Like, this is. This man is utterly delusional.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Am I wrong that that picture was very obvious?

[Ryan Grim]

It was obvious.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Cause I couldn't see.

[Ryan Grim]

But that's if you can see it. I think maybe his eyes aren't good enough. And Stephen Miller just lied to him. I mean, somebody's lying to him, like. And we'll talk about this at the end of this clip with his answer on tourism. He's watching television and reading some things. So he has some, like, access to outside information. But clearly his circle of advisors are either afraid of him and. Or are just outright lying to him to cynically manipulate him. Stephen Miller is the one with the most access to him as deputy chief of staff, who would have a vested interest in lying about whether or not he has MS.13 tattooed on his hand. And also, it doesn't. The whole thing falls apart. He has a marijuana leaf and then a smile like, okay, well, even in Spanish, you know, you can. There's an Ms. There, then there's a cross, which is like, okay, that's not a one, that's a cross. Yeah. And then there's a skull and that's where it's like, where do you get a three out of a skull? And people are like, well, you can draw a three somewhere onto the skull. Okay. Now you're just in fantasy land. Like, it's like, you know, smoking weed makes me happy. Love the Lord till I die. Like, that's a thing that's out there. Like, that actually makes a little bit of sense.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, it makes a little bit of sense, but I'm not really MS.13 tattoos either.

[Ryan Grim]

Also, MS.13, if you've seen. Go Google image MS.13 tattoos, they say MS.13 on their face or on their back in like.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, they're usually in like old timey, old script.

[Ryan Grim]

But it's clear, it's clear you'd be thrown out of the gang. Like, hey, you're supposed to tattoo MS.13 on yourself, Kilmar. And he's like, oh, yeah, I did this. It's really fancy. See how the M, the s. And then this is sort of like a one, and this is a skull. Like, you're afraid to announce your support, your membership in Ms. 13, so you're out. That's not how it works. Anyway, not that it matters, because none of this matters. This was Photoshopped. He's wrong.

[Emily Jashinsky]

It was very obvious. It was like a serif font with. It didn't look like it was natural on the skin like a tattoo.

[Ryan Grim]

It was wrong.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Put onto the image in a way that is just mind blowing that you would interpret that as someone's actual ms.13 tattoo. I'm not ready to rule out what's on Kilmar Abrego Garcia's knuckles as being potentially gang related. But that's at this point beside the point, because Donald Trump thinks that an obvious Photoshop is real. He clearly thinks that it's real. Did you get the sense that he was lying to Terry Moran's face? I didn't.

[Ryan Grim]

I think he genuinely believes it. He seemed, and he seemed to be like, really frustrated at Terry Moran for, like, his ability to take in information seems gone. And at the end he says, why won't you just say to me, yes, he has MS.13 on his knuckles? Which is clearly. That's what he wants his sycophants around him to say. Just tell me. Yes.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Let's Skip ahead to D5. This is going to be the SOT about tourism because I think that is actually an interesting theme from some of the clips that we played. So the MS.13 clip, but also the 2 versus 3 terms clip. Let's roll. Tourism is way up.

[Donald Trump]

D5 and Canadians, many of them are really angry, furious about your talk about we're going to take over. Canada's going to become the 51st state. And it kind of is of a piece. A lot of travel is down into the United States from around the world. We're doing like there's been reputational is doing great. Well, prices are down. Not the gasoline's down, energy's down. Tourism is going to be way up. When you see the numbers. The tourism is way up now, now Canada. Oh, tourism is doing very well. We're doing very well. We're doing very well. Wait till you see the real numbers come out in about, in six months from now when you see the numbers. But do you think I'm going to ask you. Yeah.

[Emily Jashinsky]

So he's saying two things there. On the one hand, that numbers are fine now. On the other, that the numbers will go up.

[Ryan Grim]

Wait till you see the numbers.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Well, so this is According to CNBC, foreign visitors to the US by air fell nearly 10% in March from the same month a year earlier and nearly 13% from before the pandemic to 4.54 million people. That's what the, that's where this information we have as of right now.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, that's March to see April. Yeah.

[Emily Jashinsky]

So.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, according to Trump, wait till you see April. Like, who's lying to him? I don't like Trump's judgment in general, but I would like his judgment to be acted upon reality. Like, I want him to have accurate information and then I disagree with or agree with what he's doing. I'd rather his advisors tell him, hey, man, tourism's way down. Do we care or is this all part of the plan? Rather than this, hey, boss, everything's great. Tourism is up. She's on the phone. Ms. 13 is tattooed on his fingers like, you're killing it, boss. Everybody loves you.

[Emily Jashinsky]

CNBC also says including land border crossings.

[Ryan Grim]

And we're going to get the Fox News pollster fired. That's what Steven Miller said yesterday.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yes, he said that. I actually think that there are probably some legitimate questions about the accuracy of.

[Ryan Grim]

The Fox News poll, but they're in line with everybody else's.

[Emily Jashinsky]

But right now they are. Yeah. These, if you look at all the polling aggregations. Yes. So including land border crossing, CNBC says inbound visitors to the US fell 14% in March from last year, according to the US Travel Association. So an industry like that's down trade group. Yeah, that's very obviously down. Now, this clip, I want to say, Ryan, I think that sounded to me possibly just like regular Trump talking his way into success. I hope fluctuating between, they're fine now, but they're gonna be fine. Like, it just was. I felt like that was just Trump kind of bullshitting. The MS.13 one is the one that really concerns me also. I don't know what he was talking about when he said two terms and then he said three terms. I guess it's possibly 2020, but he said we already served three terms. So it's all. It's very.

[Ryan Grim]

He's a time traveler.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I've never been on the.

[Ryan Grim]

You have this very, like, traditional understanding of time.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yes.

[Ryan Grim]

Whereas he moves about it freely.

[Emily Jashinsky]

He's sort of on a higher plane. But, no, I've never been on the bandwagon ever, like, up until this point, of people who thought that Trump had some type of, like, medical, mental aging condition. You know, that was something the Biden team tried to push. There's obviously something going on up there. Whether or not it's aging. I've never been on that bandwagon, to be honest. But the MS.13 one, now, that one has me really. That one has me, really questions.

[Ryan Grim]

That could just be idiocy and capacity. Yeah, that could just be idiocy and capacity.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Or lies.

[Ryan Grim]

Someone lied to him.

[Emily Jashinsky]

To your point, I guess it is possible that somebody lied to him. Now, to put that in stark relief, let's take a look at what Donald Trump said about negotiations with Vladimir Putin. Just for a reminder that the man who believes Ms. 13 was tattooed on Kilmore Abrego Garcia's hand is negotiating the end of a potential or of a war involving a nuclear power. So go ahead and roll D4.

[Donald Trump]

He's willing to stop the fighting. Don't think he wants to. You think Vladimir Putin wants peace? I think he does, yes. I think he does. I think even with the raining missiles, I think he really. His. His. His dream was to take over the whole country. I think because of me, he's not going to do that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Do you trust?

[Donald Trump]

I think.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Do you trust him?

[Donald Trump]

I don't trust you. I don't trust. I don't trust a lot of people. I don't trust you. Look at you. You come in all shooting for bear. You're so happy to do the interview.

[Krystal Ball]

I am happy.

[Donald Trump]

You start hitting me with face Questions he saw tell me that a guy whose hand is covered with a tattoo doesn't have the tattoo, you know.

[Sagar Enjeti]

All right.

[Donald Trump]

I mean, you're being dishonest. No, I'm not.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, I'm not.

[Donald Trump]

Do I trust. I don't trust a lot of people. But I do think this, I think that he, let's say he respects me and I believe because of me he's not going to take over the hole. But his decision, his choice would be to take over all of Ukraine.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Okay. Again, there's a charitable reading of this where he's said this before. He's not going to talk. And Witkoff has said this, he's not going to talk trash about Putin in a way that would hamper his ability just to kind of virtue signal to American neocons in a way that would hamper the actual peace process. So on that part I get not taking Terry Moran's bait. On the other hand, Ryan, he's still going back to the MS.13 tattoo.

[Ryan Grim]

So he's like, yeah, I can't trust you because you think that wasn't photoshopped? Yeah. Or you think that was photoshopped. Wow.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Things are fine. We're 100 days in. Everything is proceeding apace. Everyone's happy. Tourism is up.

[Ryan Grim]

Feels like a lifetime. Good Lord.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah. Anything else on the Terry Moran rallies?

[Ryan Grim]

Just 25th Amendment. And look, I was for it with Biden, so can't get me on that hypocrisy. So, President Vance, get ready. Lace up, lace up.

[Emily Jashinsky]

All right, let's move on to the Houthis, Ryan, because another quite an interesting L for the good old US of A here.

[Ryan Grim]

This week.

[Krystal Ball]

Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24. 7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care.

[Ryan Grim]

Hey, my name is Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I just had a great conversation with Michelle Obama, to whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from, am I doing enough me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist? So let's unpack that. Former first lady Michelle.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Michelle Obama and someone who knows her best, her big brother Craig, will be.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Hosting a podcast called imo. What have been your personal journeys with therapy? We need to be coached throughout our lives.

[Ryan Grim]

My mom wanted us to be independent children and she would always tell me, stop worrying about your sister.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Having been the first lady of the entire country and representation representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. What would you say has been the most hardest recent test of fear? Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg. And this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. We are back in a big way, in a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner.

[Chernobyl]

It's just the compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves.

[Krystal Ball]

Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne for Brothers Osborne.

[Ryan Grim]

We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug thing is.

[Krystal Ball]

Benny the Butcher, Brent Smith from Shinedown got Be real from Cypress Hill, NHL enforcer Riley Cote, Marine Corvette MMA fighter Liz Caramouche.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things. Stories matter and it brings a face to it.

[Krystal Ball]

It makes it real.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It really does.

[Krystal Ball]

It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content. Subscribe to Lava for Good on Apple Podcasts.

[Ryan Grim]

We can put this first element up on the screen. An FA18 fighter jet fell off the side of a US aircraft carrier and sunk to the bottom of the Red Sea. What we know from reporting out of the US from the Navy is that or they claim. This is what they claim and we'll talk about this. They claim that the aircraft carrier was making a sharp movement to avoid Houthi fire. Now, we know from Houthi officials that they did indeed say that they launched a drone and missile attack on the Truman carrier group. And I spoke to somebody who served on an aircraft carrier and he said, yeah, those things, I think 30, 30 knots, like they, they, they get, they get moving at a serious clip. And when they start to, I don't know if you can totally come about in an aircraft carrier, but when they start to turn, they do bank and you have to have everything kind of secured. According to the Navy, they were hauling this thing out of the hangar A hangar at the time when it started to bank because I guess they weren't planning on banking. Now these are super fast missiles, so it's kind of. I'm a little skeptical that even the fastest aircraft carrier can move fast enough to get it out of the way of a missile. Who knows? What do I know? All we know is that this $70 million fighter jet was. Is now at the bottom of the Red Sea. Yeah. Yeah. So we don't have health care.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

But we do have now sunken fighter jet. It raises a lot of questions. Do we have fighter jet insurance and were we current on it?

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yes, that is one of the questions that comes to mind.

[Ryan Grim]

Was it paid off from progressive? What if we had just finished paying this thing off when it rolled off the side?

[Emily Jashinsky]

The Allstate guys should start doing commercials.

[Ryan Grim]

Finding the pieces and you know, that's how it goes when you have a $70 million fighter jet. The second you make your last payment, it rolls off the side of the aircraft carrier.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Many such cases.

[Ryan Grim]

Just for fun, let's put up E2 here. This is the War Powers Resolution. It is not actually. Okay, constitutionally for this carrier group to even be in these waters. Yep. According to the Constitution, the Congress is vested with the power to declare war. According to the War Powers act, you cannot enter into hostilities to say according.

[Emily Jashinsky]

To the war powers, you can't do this.

[Ryan Grim]

So beyond that, you can't do this. Just saying you can't do this.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Oh, 100%.

[Ryan Grim]

And they are entered into hostilities. Right now they are in a place where they know they're going to get shot at. And if they don't want to get shot at, they're able to leave that area like there's no reason they have to be there or. And Congress has not authorized it. Now maybe that implicates the insurance policy. Insurance policy. You probably have to be current on your alignment with your constitutional war powers. And so the insurance policy is a taxpayer. They're not paying for this. FAA 18. When all state gets the bill, do they.

[Emily Jashinsky]

This is. They'll claim this under the umbrella of an AUMF. Like a 20 plus year old AUMF.

[Ryan Grim]

I don't even know if they bother anymore.

[Emily Jashinsky]

They're not even trying.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. Yeah. And our allies aren't there. So the AUMF authorizes us to fight Al Qaeda wherever we find them. The problem in Yemen is that our allies are Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda are fighting the Houthis.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

So that's not gonna fly either.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Well, you'd think. Did you just Say, that's not going to fly.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Pretty good.

[Ryan Grim]

I did not.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Pretty good.

[Ryan Grim]

I did not even do that one on purpose, but wow, it really worked. Less amusing, but even more disturbing, perhaps, development out of Yemen. We can put this next element up on the screen. So there are, as you know, as everybody knows, a bunch of amateur OSINT people out there who go around monkeying with Google Earth, posting things that they find and declaring them to be interesting to the world. If that's your hobby, fine. Enjoy yourself. You know, social media. Go ahead. There are some people who have been going around looking at Google Earth images of Yemen and claiming to have been able to spot Houthi missile launch sites or Houthi bases. Okay, again, I guess, like, if that's how you want to spend your time, go ahead and do that. So a couple of accounts posted the exact coordinates of what they said was some type of base missile launch situation in a quarry in Yemen. We can put this next element up on the screen. And the U.S. struck that precise coordinate. This is Wild killed. The reports are. And Shuaib Al Mowasi, who's our reporter in Sanaa, confirmed for us that this area just outside of Sana'a was struck. A significant number of civilians were killed. The reporting is 8. And so we know that this person posted this image, posted these coordinates, and then the US Struck these coordinates and that there was nothing there. Like, we all know this now.

[Emily Jashinsky]

What was the time lapse between the coordinates?

[Ryan Grim]

A couple weeks.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Couple weeks.

[Ryan Grim]

And so the question then is, is this the strangest coincidence ever, or is CENTCOM pulling targets from random Twitter users, striking them?

[Emily Jashinsky]

Weirder possibility. What if somebody at CENTCOM has a burner that they're floating coordinates out onto?

[Ryan Grim]

I think this is a person that's in Holland. They know who this person is. It's like a woman who's just interested in this stuff. Also, they're wrong. They blew it. They killed civilians. They didn't. They didn't get this right. So this person posted screenshots of donations that she made to Doctors Without Borders and a Yemeni charitable group as. Sorry. So, to start, I have made two donations. One to MSF Medicine Frontier and one, the Yemen Data Project, totaling €500. Like, as an apology, basically, for accidentally getting some people killed. Now, I'm not even that angry at this person because it's CENTCOM that should not be grabbing information for this person.

[Emily Jashinsky]

This is a really weird account. I'm going through it right now. Yeah, Blecky Hond.

[Ryan Grim]

It's very strange.

[Emily Jashinsky]

It's Very, very weird. It's like. It's almost like a belling cat type.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

But it's just a random person. Ish. But who knows, right? Who knows? The response that mirrors the way I feel about it was from somebody who said, we don't want your donations. We don't need them. Just stop publishing false aerial photos. You're publishing civilian areas as military zones and causing the killing of our people. Even if we assume that they are military zones, why are you hostile to us? What is your interest in this? And so that's actually the question I have too. It's like, why are you doing this? So I reached out to this account. They did not hear back. I did not hear back. I also reached out to centcom to ask if it's the case. And there was another account as well that had posted the same query. So I reached out to ask, is it the case that you're pulling these from Twitter? Yeah, it certainly is the case. We know that at least for some of their. And we know this from sources around the Pentagon that they are pulling. We do know for sure they are pulling some of their damage assessment from Twitter because that has circulated in the Pentagon. Like after a strike, there'll be some social media account, like posts from that are not U.S. government, your U.S. military accounts, just random people. Some of these are just strident, like anti Houthi partisans. And they'll say, this is what happened in the strike and CENTCOM will use that in their analysis. So we do know that they are willing to use what they euphemistically call.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Open source intel and whatever, presumably whatever led this open source intel collector who interestingly has Ceasefire now in the bio.

[Ryan Grim]

I saw that, yeah. Ceasefire. Where?

[Emily Jashinsky]

In the bio. The bio of.

[Ryan Grim]

I know, but it's like, where do they want a ceasefire?

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, it's very odd.

[Ryan Grim]

Yemenis, why are you putting up coordinates to get a bomb?

[Emily Jashinsky]

So presumably, obviously whatever led this account to that spot could potentially be leading CENTCOM to that spot. I mean, it wouldn't necessarily have to be a coincidence.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, except it was a total blunder. Like, it was right. It was just a misreading.

[Emily Jashinsky]

It's very, very weird. It's an incredibly deeply strange story. I'm glad that you asked the government about it because if they're pulling this stuff and it's wrong from Twitter accounts, I mean, I guess it's one thing. If it's right, it's still very odd. If it's right. If they're actually getting it from Twitter and not Just sort of following the same breadcrumbs, but. But a deeply, deeply strange situation. And you can understand how it's going to land with people in Yemen. I mean, it looks to people in Yemen like complete casual destruction.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes. And it's also completely ineffectual. I mean, it's effective at killing innocent people, but when it comes to actually degrading the capacity of the Houthis to fire at at ships, it's simply not effective. They just tilted an aircraft carrier and knocked a. What do they call it, a Hornet, whatever, to the bottom of the red Sea. A $70 million. $70 million plane. Meanwhile, the Houthis, in an interview with Shoaib, a top official there, was effectively responding to Trump and Hegseth, who said that if the Houthis stop shooting at American ships, we will stop shooting at them. This Houthi political leader on the record told Dropsite News, we will stop. You stop attacking us, and then we will stop attacking you. Done. Agreement. Our problem is with Israel, and they're not even asking Israel to enter into a ceasefire at this point. They launched this renewed siege of shipping because Israel was blocking aid into Gaza. So if Israel would just allow aid back in. Now, at this point, they want Israel to return to the ceasefire terms that they had agreed to, but that's it. Their beef is with Israel, not with us. And so they have accepted our offer, yet here we are bombing innocent people, trying to degrade their capacity, not doing it. And right now it's just kind of funny that this ship. I mean, isn't it sort of funny that this ship fell off the aircraft carrier? Trump could get somebody killed also. That could have been a lot worse.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I just found Lecky Hahn cited in West Point's a report from West Point's Combating Terrorism Center.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, interesting.

[Emily Jashinsky]

He's a reliable. The quote, ever resourceful analyst at Flecky Hon.

[Ryan Grim]

This is a West Point paper.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yep.

[Ryan Grim]

All right, well, this is pretty strong confirmation that this account is considered credible. What was it called? It's Ever Reliable.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Ever Reliable.

[Ryan Grim]

Ever Reliable. Well, not always.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Ever resourceful.

[Ryan Grim]

Ever Resourceful. Yes. Okay. They're resourceful. They're using Google Earth.

[Emily Jashinsky]

This was in the case of. It says the ever resourceful analyst at Veckihan's. Use of purchased commercial satellite imagery. And this is from last year, so it's not like an old paper or anything. And it's cited actually in the footnotes of this report from West Point.

[Ryan Grim]

So, yeah, so, okay, so they are. They do actually think this person is credible. That ups the likelihood that they relied on this person's Google Earth imagery to launch this erroneous and deadly airstrike, close to 100%.

[Emily Jashinsky]

What this means is that the military is paying attention to this particular open source account.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. So it would make it.

[Emily Jashinsky]

That's much stronger. I mean.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, exactly. Separately and also relatedly. And we won't. We were going to put up some of this video, but we decided not to because even blurring it, it's just too graphic. But the Houthis announced that one of the air strikes, and we don't know where they got the coordinates for this one that the US had said hit a Houthi base, actually hit an African migrant detention center. And so far the death toll is at least 68. Like we struck a detention center filled with people and the images that have come out of it of bodies mingled with the rubble are just gruesome and horrifying. So you can go find them if you want to. We were going to play it just so that you didn't have to take our word for it, but I think you probably trust us enough at this point that we can tell you that it happened. We did that.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I mean, the video, if people go.

[Ryan Grim]

Pull it up, you can find it.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, you can find it. Recommended viewing, unfortunately, in a very tragic way. Recommended viewing.

[Ryan Grim]

So up next, protests and counter protests in Crown Heights in Brooklyn on Thursday night led to what became a national scandal. The way that a mob of pro Israel protesters assaulted two different women. One of them is going to do her first video interview and share some of her own footage that she captured while this mob was pursuing her. So stick around for that.

[Krystal Ball]

Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24. 7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medications for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care.

[Ryan Grim]

Hey, my name is Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I just had a great conversation with Michelle Obama, to whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from am I doing enough me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist. Therapists. So let's unpack that.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Former first lady Michelle Obama and someone who knows her best, her big brother.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Craig, will be hosting a podcast called imo. What have been your personal journeys with therapy? We need to be coached throughout our lives.

[Ryan Grim]

My mom wanted us to be independent children and she would always tell me, stop worrying about your sister.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. What would you say has been the most hardest recent test of fear? Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. We are back in a big way, in a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner.

[Chernobyl]

It's just the compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves.

[Krystal Ball]

Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne. For Brothers Osborne.

[Ryan Grim]

We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug thing is.

[Krystal Ball]

Benny the Butcher, Brent Smith from Shinedown. Be real from Cypress Hill, NHL enforcer Riley Cote, Marine Corps vet, MMA fighter Liz Caramouche.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things. Stories matter and it brings a face to them.

[Krystal Ball]

It makes it real.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It really does.

[Krystal Ball]

It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Ryan Grim]

So on Thursday night, Itamar Ben GVIR appeared at a synagogue in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, where he was met by protesters as well as pro Israel counter protesters. As you may have heard, because it's become a national story by this point, two women were chased and assaulted that evening. Eric Adams has since come out and said that he wants to press charges, but the women have not come forward publicly. One of those women was just simply a neighborhood resident and a bystander. She's joining us today. She wants to continue to remain anonymous and she's also provided us for the first time some video footage that she took from her perspective. You've probably seen a lot of the footage of the crowd kind of assaulting her and harassing her as she's separated from the rest of this protest. But you'll be able to see some of this shortly. But let's bring in our Crown Heights resident. Welcome to Counterpoints. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Chernobyl]

Thank you for having me. Thank you for your interest in this story.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, for sure. So first of all, can you tell us, like, how you wound up Thursday evening at this protest? How did you know that there was a protest going on?

[Chernobyl]

Sure, yeah. So, you know, it was kind of later in the evening, around 10, 10:30, and a helicopter had been hovering over my building for around 30 minutes. So I went outside to see what was going on. And I encountered the aftermath of a protest when I arrived at Kingston Avenue and Eastern Parkway, right where the Chabot is.

[Ryan Grim]

And so, yeah, so what happened? What happened next?

[Chernobyl]

Yeah, so I was standing on the sidewalk. There were tons of people, hundreds of people in the street. And on the sidewalk, pretty much only Orthodox Jewish people, mostly men. And then there were some other neighbors like myself, standing on the sidewalk just watching. Just watching the scene to see what was going on.

[Emily Jashinsky]

And I want to say that's an important point because actually we had reported earlier that you were a pro Palestine demonstrator, and that's not the case. To be clear, you were just sort of a bystander who was watching the chaos unfold in your neighborhood.

[Ryan Grim]

Right?

[Chernobyl]

That's right.

[Ryan Grim]

And so I understand that. Well, why did they mistake you for somebody that needed to be assaulted?

[Chernobyl]

Yeah. So what happened, and it happened really quickly, was that people near me began filming. And I didn't want to be on anyone's camera roll, so I pulled up my scarf over my face. And I just want to be clear that it was not a keffiyeh. It wouldn't matter if it was, but it wasn't. And that was really. That just escalated things. Almost immediately, a woman began screaming at me. She was already screaming at the police. Then she started screaming at me for me that they needed to get me out of there. And almost immediately, a group of like 100 guys encircled me and just started shouting, like, just vile insults at me. They were saying, you're a waste of stealing. You're a failed abortion. They were threatening to rape me. They telling me to go back to Palestine. And I also just want to say that I was standing right next to a long line of police. And as this began to happen, I moved closer to the police because I thought that that would afford me some safety. And I was wrong because they did not do anything to intervene. And they really just stared straight ahead with their eyes glazed over as if no crime. Nothing was happening before their eyes.

[Ryan Grim]

I want to play a little bit of the footage here. If we can roll that control room.

[Chernobyl]

You see the fact that you guys.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Let her here is the fact you.

[Ryan Grim]

Guys want violence when we.

[Donald Trump]

You want close to them.

[Ryan Grim]

You're a little.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I live here.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I'm allowed to be here just as much as you.

[Chernobyl]

Some weird ass.

[Dasha Burns]

Is that you.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You want someone to bend you over.

[Ryan Grim]

And rap you like they're doing to the Jews in Palestine.

[Emily Jashinsky]

And you can see in that video the police standing there. You pay taxes to be protected by the police. They're standing there in that video. And so how did you end up getting out of the situation? Was anybody other than the police trying to help? What happened as you tried to get away from that harassment?

[Chernobyl]

Yeah, so as I tried to leave the situation to get away, another officer from somewhere else on the street came over and he. He saw this mob following me and he tried to escort me home. And so we walked in the direction of my home, and this. Just this mob of men followed. And as they followed, they were again saying, go back to Palestine. And in Hebrew shouting, death to Arabs. They were kicking me in the back repeatedly. They were throwing things at my head. They. They hurled the trash can at me. They threw a traffic cone at me. They were spitting. It was just. It was really scary. And at a certain point, I realized that I couldn't lead this mob to my home. That that wouldn't be safe for me. And I turned on a different street in the. Away from the direction of my home, where they kind of cornered me and this one officer against a building, which is where they were started, like, throwing the trash can and the traffic cone at me. And I really just. I didn't know what to do or where to go because they couldn't go home. And the police weren't there to stop. I mean, they were there, but they weren't stopping this. And it was really terrifying. Finally, as we're like, cornered against this building, a cop car pulled up in the middle of the street. And I just ran for my life through this crowd of men who were shouting, get her. And jumped in the back of the police car. Who. And then those police drove me to my house.

[Ryan Grim]

What were you thinking as you're kind of going down the street and the mob is around you? Because I'm reminded of this time where I got jumped by three guys in an alley behind my apartment. And I remember thinking. I just remember, don't go down. Don't go down. Because if, like, I knew that if I went down onto the ground, then. Then you're dealing with feet rather than just fists. And I was eventually able to get away without actually going down onto the floor of the alley. So I'm wondering if there were any thoughts going through your mind as you're getting kicked in the back and things are getting thrown at you of what you needed to do to get yourself out of this situation.

[Chernobyl]

Yeah, I mean, I will say I have a very strong fight instinct, and I was fighting very hard to repress it in those moments because I knew that they wanted me to respond in that way. They wanted me to fight back so that they could escalate things and have an excuse to hurt me further. And it was. And it was just like I really had to repress that the whole time and instead put my mind to keeping myself safe. And there wasn't a lot of conscious thought outside of don't react, don't react physically, and don't leave them to your home. You know, outside of that, it was just like a lot. It was a lot of terror. It was just this feeling of terror that was. That was there for me.

[Emily Jashinsky]

And what response have you received since all of this happened? I know Eric Adams has sort of put out an attempt to get in contact. Have the police followed up. What have you heard in the last several days?

[Chernobyl]

Yeah, you know, I'm in such a tricky position here because I want to call out all of the police inaction and lies that they've been telling. And at the same time, I really want them to take action on my behalf and the people of New York's behalf. And I think those two. Those two desires of mine are in conflict with each other. And so. But I'm going to say anyway, like, the police didn't do anything. Nobody tried to get in contact with me. They were saying that they reached out to me and I filed a report, and that was a lie. I eventually did get in touch with a detective a couple days ago, and. And I was able to file a report. And. Yeah, and I think that the police have just been spreading a lot of misinformation about what happened, and that's really frustrating for me.

[Ryan Grim]

And so you did speak to a detective. Would you testify if they were able to find, you know, able to identify these men who did this?

[Chernobyl]

I would, yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. It was interesting to see Eric Adams finally come out because there's a. It took a significant amount of time for Adams to say anything publicly. And it seems like there's this attitude that if somebody is a kind of pro Palestine demonstrator, the kind of rules don't apply, they can just get beaten up. And I wonder if them finally Realizing that you actually weren't. You were just a person who lives in the neighborhood. If that played some role. Did you get any indication from the detective of how important, kind of, his bosses see this case and what it was that moved them kind of to actually do something?

[Chernobyl]

Yeah, so I think I talked to the detective on Monday afternoon, and they seemed to really be scrambling. He had told me that they had only just gotten the directive that they were going to be investigating this a couple hours prior. So this all happened on Thursday night, where the police again watched it happen. And they didn't take any action until this video went viral over the weekend. And the pressure. And then there was pressure on the mayor and the nypd.

[Ryan Grim]

And not that any of this matters, because you were just there, but I'm curious, are you Jewish? Are you Christian? Are you atheist? Apathist? Like, what's. And do you have a view on the politics here? Like I said, it doesn't matter. Nobody should be beaten up, no matter what they think, wherever they are on the spectrum. And you were just there. But I'm also just curious.

[Chernobyl]

Yeah, no, I'm not religious at all. And I do support the rights of Palestinians to live in a free state of their own. And I think, like, you know, what happened to me, it really gave me a glimpse into the daily reality of Palestinians under occupation. Just they're subjected to violence, dehumanization, abandonment. And what happened to me isn't isolated. It's part of a broader system of violence. And that needs to be. That needs to end.

[Emily Jashinsky]

My last question is about the situation in Crown Heights, and people are sort of familiar with the historical tensions that have simmered over in Crown Heights. And what's very frightening, one of the many things that's very frightening about your experience and about the video is how this anger seems to be bubbling into something very, very dangerous right now. So I wanted to ask. I mean, this is kind of a meta question, but there's a reason that you want to speak out anonymously, and I imagine that it has to do with your safety. So if you could speak to that and the situation in Crown Heights, whether you see it as something that's very dangerous right now, that would be much appreciated.

[Chernobyl]

Yeah, sure. Yeah. I'm absolutely afraid for my own safety in the neighborhood I lived in and have lived in for almost a decade. I'm afraid of being recognized. And yes, there is a long and fraught history of tensions involving this community in Crown Heights. I would say, like, two weeks ago, members of the Orthodox Jewish community brutally beat an elderly black man in a wheelchair and threw him to the, to the sidewalk earlier that night. You know, you mentioned it before, like that same mob that attacked me, they threw a brick at a woman's face. They assaulted an anti Zionist Hasidic man that night, also throwing into the ground and removing his religious head covering. And like, you know, I've lived here for a long time. I know the history. Like the orthodox Jewish community reigns terror on this neighborhood with impunity. And I don't normally feel that tensions walking through the street as a white woman, but I am aware of it. I'm aware that they are afforded certain privileges that, that not everyone else in the neighborhood is.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, as we saw, the event happened Thursday night in full view of all the police and nothing happened until Monday until there's a spotlight put on it. So thank you so much for sharing your perspective, the videos and your side of this terrifying event.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah, we really appreciate it.

[Chernobyl]

Yeah, thank you.

[Krystal Ball]

Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24. 7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care.

[Ryan Grim]

Hey, my name is Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I just had a great conversation with Michelle Obama, to whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from am I doing enough me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist? So let's unpack that.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Former first lady Michelle Obama and someone who knows her best, her big brother.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Craig, will be hosting a podcast called imo. What have been your personal journeys with therapy? We need to be coached throughout our lives.

[Ryan Grim]

My mom wanted us to be independent children and she would always tell me, stop worrying about your sister.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. What would you say has been the most hardest recent test of fear? Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lodd and this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. We are back in a big way in a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner.

[Chernobyl]

It's just the compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves.

[Krystal Ball]

Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne.

[Ryan Grim]

We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug thing is.

[Krystal Ball]

Benny the Butcher, Brent Smith from Shinedown Got Be real from Cypress Hill, NHL enforcer Riley Cote, Marine Corps vet, MMA fighter Liz Caramouche.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things. Stories matter and it brings a face to them.

[Krystal Ball]

It makes it real.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It really does.

[Krystal Ball]

It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs Podcast Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcast.

[Ryan Grim]

Joining us now is Chernobyl, editor of the Africanist Press. And also we can put this element up on the screen, the author of the tremendous book the Ebola Outbreak in West Corporate gangsters, multinationals and Rogue politicians. We spoke with Chernow a year or two ago about the Ebola outbreak in West Africa, and we can put a link to that interview that we did down in the show. Notes Embarrassed to say I hadn't read the full book by the time that we had you on then because we were moving fairly quickly, but I've since read it. It's really a masterpiece. I would recommend it to everybody. It's also a fairly short book, so there was no excuse that I hadn't read it yet. But it runs through the history of kind of multinational, corporate and colonial involvement in medical research in in Africa and then leads up into Ebola and the response. And I'll let you talk about it a little bit because we're going to talk about some other things in this segment, but you basically demonstrate with authority that the story that we're told about how the Ebola outbreak happened is ludicrous, has no evidentiary basis, and that the more likely cause is the shoddy lab that was doing Ebola research in Sierra Leone. Anything you want to add about that?

[Dasha Burns]

Yes, it's been 10 years now since I published that book or since I wrote that book. And it's interesting to see that the conversation that we started 10 years ago still is relevant today, especially when we talk about COVID and the pandemic. It was five years before COVID at the time when the outbreak happened. The official narrative was that the outbreak started in guinea and they identified emil Wamono, a 2 year old, less than 2 year old child, an 18 year old boy, as the index case of the outbreak. They alleged that the child had participated in the hunting and grilling of a bat. So my book challenges that, what we call the official narrative, raising questions that would have allowed people to look into the biodefense research operation that was happening in eastern Sierra Leone dating back to 2004, 10 years before the outbreak. But I think 10 years ago when the book came out, it was very difficult to have that conversation because any attempt to have a conversation that challenged the, the dominant narrative, as we called it then, was considered a conspiracy theory. So very few people were willing to have that kind of conversation. So I traveled around the world at the time, going to Europe, across the United States and in some African countries to promote the book. You know, 10 years down the line, I think now we have some kind of a significant amount of people who are perhaps willing to listen to that kind of, you know, the possibility that the outbreak that killed thousands of people in West Africa and still has a lingering socioeconomic impact and psychological impact on the population of West Africa. Talking about people who lived in Sierra Leone, in Liberia and guinea, the epicenter of that epidemic, are still unaware of the causes and origin of that outbreak. Yeah, we've had so much about COVID which happened five years, and afterwards there has been some kind of congressional discussion, some kind of White House conversation around Covid, but no such conversation has happened for the victims of the epidemic in West Africa. And I had said in my book that what we witnessed in West Africa in 2015 was a prelude, was a dress rehearsal to what the world will face with this whole idea of pathogens being part of warfare, bioterrorism and all these kinds of things. So I'm happy that we're still talking about this 10 years later. I'm hoping that this conversation will loom large, that the victims of the Ebola outbreak will get justice, at least will be able to understand how that outbreak that killed their family members, their relatives, their friends and neighbors. We need the truth. We need some kind of a disclosure of information around what corporations we are doing, what universities and the research scientists, because we're talking about the same institutions, same individuals who are involved with COVID were the ones who were involved in West Africa.

[Ryan Grim]

And the conversation is relevant today, I think, for a lot of reasons. But one of them is that here in the west, the debate around what we call, quote, unquote, foreign Aid is that the Democrats will say foreign aid is good and we should do it because it's good. And also it helps the United States, you know, with our soft power and people love us because we do it. The Republicans will say foreign aid is good because it's charity and it helps people, but it's not our business. Like we don't need to do it. They need to take care of themselves. But there's really no debate over whether or not it's fundamentally a good thing. So that's why I wanted to have you on today because obviously somebody who is getting access to HIV treatment, like they need that treatment as a particular individual. But taking it from a micro case to a macro case, let's talk about what the fallout has been in the regions where you cover to both the pulling back of usaid, but also what has happened in the wake of some of these, some of the quote, unquote, aid or investment projects that have rolled out through DFC or mcc. We'll talk about those separately. First, what was your reaction when you saw the cuts to USAID and from your understanding what have been, how is Africa responding?

[Dasha Burns]

Well, I think the problem here we entered into a problem because when these real conversations that affect people's lives, we're talking about women and men, you know, children who have suffered from dictators, from bad governments, from corruption in Africa. And when we have this kind of conversation, the risk is that when it becomes partisan, we lose the importance of scrutinizing international relations. To what extent has international relations affected the lives of ordinary people? In the case of Sierra Leone, we've been raising these issues. We've said clearly that we are not against, against what you might call foreign direct investment or genuine solidarity and support that uplifts people. But what we've witnessed in the last 60 years is a kind of relations that has undermined the real development. Not only that, that has imposed huge debts, non transparent debts and contracts that have affected lives. You know, we raised in the last five years, for example, the US International Development Finance Corporation in Sierra Leone acquired, you know, huge contracts in infrastructure projects, telecommunication projects. And these are amounts of money ranging to 412 million in one case, for an electricity project that was never constructed. And the processes through which that, you know, these contracts were awarded were also did not comply with even US laws regarding foreign direct investment in, in Africa or in other places. We raised these questions. Nobody listened. The same thing with the Millennium Challenge Corporation that claimed that they've signed a compact agreement with Sierra Leone to support the energy sector in Sierra Leone with $480 million. And even as we speak today, more than 90% of the Saudi population do not have access to electricity. They do not have access to safe and pure drinking water. The health care system is broken. So when you talk about usaid, DFC and MCC giving money or loans or credit or charity to countries like Sierra Leone, the citizens will be wondering where are these moneys going? Because there's no evidence of that on the ground. So I would say that rationally speaking, if we remove the partisan aspect of this conversation, we have to look at the real impact of these so called development assistance or loans or credit or charity, whatever you might want to call it. But it hasn't translated into real development. It hasn't changed the living conditions of the people of many of these countries. Sierra Leone is one case. But yeah, you can find this in any African country. This is why many African citizens do not, you know, are not really affected by this. The politicians, the corporations, the companies who have been benefiting from this are the ones that have been complaining. And unfortunately we do not have an opportunity of speaking to the people who are directly impacted by these developments. When these conversations are being held, we always listen to opinion leaders or representatives of these corporations who tend to complain about the withdrawal of so called aid and charity that has not really benefited the millions of people across Africa and in other places on whose names and conditions these supposed charitable programs have been done. So we have to, in order to get at this conversation, we have to have this conversation outside of the Democrats or the Republicans or whatever party. When issues of development and human rights and peace are being discussed and we bring these partisan issues into the conversation, we risk losing the reality and the impacts that these situations tend to have on the real lives of people. I have been one individual that has reported on corruption and human rights violations in West Africa for more than 20 years. And one of the issues we've encountered every time we raise this is raise these questions to US officials. For example, in the last administration we held countless meetings with the State Department representatives of diplomats who were in charge of West Africa. They ignore these questions. They ignore the fact that for example, I've been in exile for more than 5, 6 years and have been harassed transnationally for just raising these issues of corruption that monies that have been awarded to corrupt regimes in West Africa affecting human rights defenders, affecting journalists, they're affecting independent media, our ability to hold leaders accountable. Every time we raise corruption issues, in fact the that's when the governments receive More money. In fact, you have a situation where politicians in West Africa will tell us that the more you write about corruption, the more we get money from Western countries, including United States. So this was a very problematic situation. It's not just the U.S. you also look at organizations like the IMF, the World bank, who've been imposing debts, non transparent debts on these countries. So we have millions of hundreds of millions and billions of, of dollars in debts and so called aid that has not changed the conditions in Africa. It's more than 65 years now. Sierra Leone just celebrated what they call 64 years independence. And when you look at the country, the indices of poverty under development are very stark. You know, you don't need to go too far. You just need to have someone on the street and ask them, how do you feel about what your government is doing? They will tell you the government is corrupt, the government is not responsive to their needs.

[Emily Jashinsky]

And let's, I was going to say Trena, let's talk more about that because a lot of people here in the United States, when usaid, for example, was on the sort of cutting table in the early days of Trump's second administration, the media portrayed this as the sky was falling in the United States. This was, you know, taking a wrecking ball to lowercase D, democracy and human rights. And there are, you know, obviously cases where people's livelihoods and health and safety were affected by it, no question about it. But your experience suggests that this relic of the Cold War era that was meant to be a bulwark against the Soviet influence around the world is always, the aid is always coming with strings attached, that the question of democracy is not the pure question at hand. When aid money is distributed or whenyeah, even when aid money is distributed and NGOs, nongovernmental organizations are bolstered by that aid money. And when they are chosen, there's always a strategy that is very particular and not just about lowercase D, democracy. Your experience speaks to that. So can you tell our listeners and viewers a little bit about the reality behind the curtain of USAID and foreign aid?

[Dasha Burns]

Well, I think what you call development assistance or foreign aid did in the case of Sierra Leone, we take the last four or five years of the current government in power is that it emboldened them. It emboldened them to ignore, to violate human rights, to suppress citizens, including journalists, independent journalists like myself, with impunity because they believed that they were backed by an administration that kept giving them money. When we raised the issues of corruption regarding the non Transparent acquisition of contracts by corporations and companies funded by the DFC. The State Department went ahead and signed 480 million agreement, a compact agreement, MCC agreement with the cylinder government. This was less than a year ago. And this was for an electricity project that they've been talking about for 15 years. And we've counted more than almost a billion dollars in debt or loan or credit, whatever you might call it, that for the construction of a power plant that has never been built. And even as we speak, more than 90% of the population of Freetown, the capital of Sierra Leone, do not have electricity. And we have it on the records that the MCC and the DFC has given Sierra Leone 480 million in one case, 412 million. We're talking about more than 800 million of US taxpayers monies given to a government for the construction and provision of electricity supply that has never been provided. The service is not available. So if you talk about the withdrawal of funding, in that case people are not even going to be bothered because the money that was announced has not done anything on the ground. So the people who will be offended or who will be affected by that situation will be the politicians and the corporations and the companies and the contractors who were benefiting from these rogue relationships and investment agreements that were non transparent, that even violated U.S. laws. Because you cannot on the books, you cannot spend US taxpayers money in a country that doesn't respect human rights, that doesn't respect the freedom of its own citizens. So the government of Sierra Leone felt emboldened by these corporate relationships, financial inducements to disregard accountability questions. And it's not just really, you can find this across many of the other countries in Africa. And if you look at the people who have been complaining, they are not regular African citizens. These are NGO worker, right?

[Ryan Grim]

NGO workers. Yeah, that's what I'm asking about. So the aid gets sent by, let's say, usaid, mcc, dfc, some of these international development finance corporations or institutions. It gets sent out. In your experience, and you've done so much corruption reporting in your experience, how much of that money gets kind of stolen by African elites, the early own elites, and how much of it gets stolen by Western elites so it never even arrives for it to be stolen by the elites in Africa?

[Dasha Burns]

Yeah, that is the question. In fact, three years ago we've developed what we call in the African Express, an illicit financial flows project. Which is why, you know, when we looked at the corruption on the ground, the amount of money, whether it's from the IMF and the World bank that has been given and we don't see the development. We decided to look at the transnational dimension of these corrupt arrangements because when you talk about corruption, in most cases it tends to be localized, being seen as this government's giving money and the African politicians and African bureaucrats are the ones that are stealing these monies. And what we've come to realize is that much of that money, even the African politicians themselves are just pawns in this whole arrangement where these monies have been shipped into offshore accounts and tax havens and all of that. So we've been mapping and developing a database of these movement of transnational funds and how African governments themselves are just part of an auxiliary of pawns in this whole international racketeering enterprise that has developed, you know, for at least in the last 60 years or 65 years. So we're looking at West Africa from 1975 to present. And so it's difficult to even assign a percentage in this, in this case. And we've been, that's, that's the troubling question. How much agency can we assign to the African politicians themselves who are roped into these international corruption enterprise? And this deals with sovereignty issues. It deals with elections and democratization where leaders who do not play along these lines fall out of favor with governments and they are easily kicked out of power. And those who agree to be used or to participate in this international process are aided and abetted in rigging elections and deconsolidate dictatorships. We saw that at elections in Sierra leone in, in June 2023 where people voted against the government and elections, people went to vote and the results are still absent. Even US election monitors themselves said the elections were non transparent, but, but the DFC and the MCC continued giving money or signing finance agreements with the Sierra Leonean government. So this speaks to the question is something that is new that people need to look into. We're inviting journalists now increasingly to reverse the scale and begin to look at transnationally, not just on the local African context, how much money has been stolen. You take the case of Ebola. Much of the funds that went to roll back Ebola in West Africa was taken back by international organizations. Some of that is in my book, the numbers are so staggering that it's difficult to even compute them.

[Ryan Grim]

Now maybe that's something that we can work on together. And real quickly, last question for you. I don't know if Emily has anything else. My sense of how this plays out on the ground and curious for your take on this is that the corruption that this produces ends up kind of crushing democracy in at least two different major ways. One is the one that you talked about that, that the governments that are in power don't feel any obligation to respond to the will of the public and make reforms and improve their lives, because they know that they have the backing of these US Institutions whether they do it or not. So why bother with it? But then secondly, by infecting the system with so much corruption, it reduces the amount of engagement, I would think, that regular people have with their government. Because you can have a social democratic reformer who says he's going to do XYZ when he gets into office, but the regular person just thinks he's just as corrupt as anybody else. And so when he gets in, he's just, he's. It's just a different flavor of stealing from me. And so when what that does is it breaks that bond between the people and the government and makes democracy just a bunch of elections. And then if the elections don't go the right way, they just change the counting like they did in 2023. I remember we had you on to talk about that at the time. So is that sense that I have roughly accurate and how would you characterize it?

[Dasha Burns]

Yeah, absolutely. It disempowers citizens because when you, you go to vote and you find out that your vote doesn't count and your voice doesn't count, it silences people, it makes mockery of democracy. It turns neoliberal democracy into a facade where people do not believe in the electoral process. And this is dangerous because it opens up ideas. People begin to think about how to actualize their own citizenship, their right to have a say in government. The key to governance is trust. There has to be a fundamental trust between citizens and those they elect, where supposedly elected leaders cannot be held accountable and they cannot be punished when they violate the social contract between, you know, them and electorate is a major problem. And in the case of Africa, it's not just robbing African countries of their own sovereignty, their inability to have a say on the global stage, but also it disempowers regular citizens, especially when countries like the United States back autocratic leaders in Africa who steal money, who steal votes, and also steal the lives of their own people. You know, people feel disempowered. They lose faith in government, they lose trust in their own leaders. And once that happens, it opens the way for conflict of all kinds. And this is why you have this instability on top of the underdevelopment and the horrible conditions of poverty. There's no stability in Africa because people are constantly thinking about how to get rid of this burden that they've been dealing with for the last 65 years or more since the so called independence. The transition from direct colonialism to what we have today, where indigenous African politicians from our own communities get elected into offices and they do not serve the interests of their own people and they do not even listen to the interest of their own people. They do not care. They serve the interest of foreign corporations. And those are the people they are worried about. They're worried about whether they will be on the good books of the United States. Right now many of the African leaders are worried. They are constantly thinking about hiring lobbies to be on the good books of the current administration, especially in the case of Sierra Leone, a government that enjoyed tremendous goodwill from the Biden Harris administration. Now they're constantly thinking about how to recalibrate their entire program to be on the good books of the current new administration in Washington because they need that, that to be able to undertake these, you know, to continue on the road to dictatorship and authoritarianism. So the United States need to rethink its own relations with these, with these countries. And this is not a partisan conversation. It is way beyond Republican or Democrat. It deals with real people's lives. It deals with independence and self determination and the lives of women and children who have been suffering for, for many, many years, who have no other opportunities. All they want is just peace, to be let alone, to be able to work free, to live, you know, to have the minimum standards of existence, electricity, good roads, health care. These are basic human needs. And we should be able to look at this problem beyond or outside of these boxes that we've placed ourselves, these partisan boxes. I think that is the issue, that's the message. Nobody in Africa is against foreign relations. What we are against is that foreign direct investment or foreign relations should not be conducted at the expense of the lives and liberty of African citizens. In the case of Sierra Leone, we're saying that any such engagement should have at its core the protection of the lives and liberty of all Sierra Leoneans, including those of us who want to hold leaders accountable to the minimum standards of good governance and accountability. This should not be a difficult thing for anyone, regardless of your party, ideology or persuasion. You should be able to support this kind of human demand. It's a demand for freedom and liberty which everybody around the world aspires for.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, sounds reasonable. To meet Chernoby, journalist at the Africanist Press, Editor, author of the great book the EBOLA outbreak. Thank you so much for joining us. Very much appreciate it.

[Dasha Burns]

Thank you for having me.

[Ryan Grim]

All right, that's it for us today. You in here tomorrow.

[Emily Jashinsky]

I don't know. We don't know.

[Ryan Grim]

Actually, I don't think I know.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Sagar doesn't know what his schedule is.

[Ryan Grim]

That's true.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Nobody knows anything.

[Ryan Grim]

So you have to tune in to find out. We'll definitely be here Friday.

[Emily Jashinsky]

It has been fun, like having three people. Then that one Friday we had four people. We're just mixing everything up, having a blast over here. First 100 days, you never know what you're gonna get from Breaking Point.

[Ryan Grim]

That's right. Except the latest is half the Friday show is for premium subscribers. So go ahead and join. We're gonna need your help with these brutal headwinds. Thanks to the trade war. So breakingpoints.com, pull the trigger, become a premium subscriber.

[Emily Jashinsky]

That's right. And now that we're on Fridays, one of the things we do on those shows is kind of catch up on some of the big picture things from the week. Cause the trends of the last week are sort of clear by the Friday news cycle. So I love doing those shows.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, you don't want to miss that.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Yeah. And you know, we'll save some of the best for the second half, of course.

[Ryan Grim]

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Tune in, phoning it in the first half. The premium subs get the good stuff.

[Emily Jashinsky]

Breakingpoints.com and we don't know who will be back here tomorrow because Sagar is awaiting his baby. But we will certainly have someone here for you. Make sure to tune in for that. We'll see you back here soon.

[Ryan Grim]

All right, See you later.

[Krystal Ball]

Not everyone who handles your personal information is going to be as careful as you are. And it only takes one mistake to expose it to hackers and identity theft. Maybe that's why there's a new victim of identity theft every five seconds in the United States. Fortunately, there's Lifelock. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all Lifelock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan. If you lose money due to identity theft, you can't control how diligent others are with your personal information. But with Lifelock, you can help protect it. Act now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off. Terms apply. Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24. 7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care.

[Ryan Grim]

The biggest stars in country music will be taking the Stage at our 2025 I Heart Country Festival presented by Capital One. Ladies and gentlemen, Brooks and Dunn Thomas Red Gotta show you Rascal Flats Cole Swindell Sam Hunt Megan Moroney Bailey Zimmerman Nate smith Special guest Dasha I Heart Country Festival stream only on Hulu Saturday, May 3rd starting at 8pM Eastern, 5 Pacific.