4/9/26: WH Humiliated By Israel, Lebanon Bombings, Yanis Varoufakis On China Winning

Summary

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Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode: WH Humiliated By Israel, Lebanon Bombings, Yanis Varoufakis On China Winning

Date: April 9, 2026
Hosts: Krystal Ball & Saagar Enjeti
Featured Guest: Yanis Varoufakis (Former Greek Finance Minister, host of Ikana Class podcast)

Overview

This episode dives into the unraveling and confusion around the supposed Iran-U.S. ceasefire and its regional ramifications. The hosts dissect the U.S. government's shifting positions, Israeli bombings in Lebanon, the role of independent media in exposing official narratives, and the broader global power shift towards Asia—specifically, China's diplomatic gains. Yanis Varoufakis joins to contextualize the crisis in terms of international law, economics, and shifting alliances, asserting that China is the major geopolitical winner while the U.S. faces one of its greatest strategic humiliations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ceasefire Confusion and U.S. Administration’s Shifting Stories

• The White House declares that Iran’s initial 10-point ceasefire proposal was “thrown in the garbage,” (05:08, White House Press Secretary), yet negotiation continues, leading to confusion about what is being discussed.
• Trump administration publicly oscillates between dismissing Iranian demands and seeking a solution, primarily driven by oil market pressure and economic concerns rather than strategic gains (06:30, Krystal & Saagar).
• The true nature of the “ceasefire” is disputed: Iran sees it as requiring a halt in Lebanon too, while the U.S. and Israel resist including Lebanon in the freeze on hostilities, despite earlier statements to the contrary.

2. Trump’s Strategic and Political Dilemma

• Trump wanted an “off ramp” from war—a mission accomplished moment—but events spiraled out of his control after a failed U.S. operation involving nuclear material and subsequent Iranian strength (07:32, Saagar).
• The administration faces accusations of surrender and attempts to spin the negotiations as something other than capitulation.
• Pressure is also mounting from Israel and Gulf States, both of whom oppose a deal that allows Iran significant gains.
• Trump is torn between letting Israel continue its military operations and appeasing oil and financial markets (17:02, Saagar).

Memorable Quote:

“Everything since then is him trying to obfuscate and spin that this decisive defeat…is not as bad as it looks…”
—Saagar Enjeti, 07:32

3. Lebanon’s Centrality and Israeli Aggression

• Evidence piles up that Lebanon was meant to be part of the ceasefire deal, with explicit wording from Pakistani mediators and public officials (17:35, Krystal).
• Israel proceeds with massive bombings in Lebanon, causing mass civilian casualties and destruction, effectively ignoring or sabotaging any ceasefire (28:42, Israeli IDF statement; 33:42, Saagar).
• Discussion of the Dahiya Doctrine and Israel’s track record of targeting civilian infrastructure as part of its military pressure strategy.

Notable Segment:

“Israel decided to invade Lebanon, basically ethnically cleanse half of the country and probably annex it for some time in the future…you can’t just abandon [Hezbollah].”
—Krystal Ball, 16:18

4. Iran’s and Allies' Stance

• Iranian officials reject U.S. narratives, insisting their proposals include Lebanon and sanctions relief, with explicit warnings against further violations (17:35, Krystal; 20:11, Yanis quoting Golubov).
• The fragile truce is repeatedly violated, not least by Israeli strikes and suspected Gulf cooperation, raising the specter of wider conflict.

5. Gulf States and Regional Realignment

• Gulf monarchies, especially the UAE, actively seek to prevent any truce that benefits Iran due to existential fears and economic vulnerability (33:42, Saagar).
• Iran retaliates against Gulf targets—strikes on energy sites in Saudi, UAE, Bahrain—as a message that they hold cards beyond Lebanon and Israel.

6. China’s Quiet Victory—Geopolitical Shift

• China intervenes diplomatically for ceasefire, earning global reputation as an “adult in the room” and reliable mediator, without engaging militarily (47:05, Yanis).
• The episode highlights the significance of China’s earlier diplomatic brokering in the region (e.g., Iran-Saudi rapprochement), and how U.S. blunders have enabled China to expand its influence.

Notable Quote:

“The great winner out of this awful murderous war is China. They just need to sit back...and take the credit for being the adults in the room internationally.”
—Yanis Varoufakis, 47:05

7. Europe’s Irrelevance and Decline

• Varoufakis critiques Europe’s ethical and strategic absence, both in this crisis and more broadly since the Euro crisis, painting the EU as “unethically irrelevant” and militarily weak (49:10, Yanis).
• Europe’s response to Gaza and the wider region has led to lost moral authority and diplomatic leverage.

8. The Shifting Global Order—Legal & Economic Precedents

• Varoufakis asserts that allowing Iran to charge for Strait of Hormuz passage “shatters” the traditional law of the sea, setting a potentially dangerous precedent (55:52).
• Highlights the collapse of U.S.-Israeli-led regional order, rise of Chinese diplomatic clout, and the looming obsolescence of NATO.

Powerful Reflection:

“A precedent has been set. So international law has been changed…international law was totally rubbished by Israel every time it ethnically cleansed the Palestinians in Gaza…But still the law of the sea had not been challenged...Now it is in smithereens.”
—Yanis Varoufakis, 55:52

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On U.S. Defeat:

  “If this were to hold and the 10 points were to remotely become true, it would be the biggest strategic defeat for the United States since Vietnam.”
  —Krystal Ball, 10:05

• On Israel’s Role:

  “Netanyahu’s mantle has always been permanent war in the area...He will do whatever it takes to make sure some war is happening.”
  —Yanis Varoufakis, 42:44

• On China’s Strategy:

  “China has been playing this game very cleverly. Having said that, let’s not give them too much credit, because it is as if Washington D.C. is doing its best to lose every diplomatic brownie point…”
  —Yanis Varoufakis, 47:05

• On the Collapse of Old Orders:

  “The belief, the faith in some kind of alignment…between the US and the EU, I think that’s gone…It’s going to be eroded whether Trump is in the White House or not.”
  —Yanis Varoufakis, 52:33

• On Human Impact:

  “Beirut had 92 killed, 742 injured…the level of death is comparable to some of the worst days we saw in Gaza, just mass slaughtering.”
  —Krystal Ball, 29:45; Saagar Enjeti, 36:40

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening / Show Overview: [02:08–04:14]
• Ceasefire Announcement & White House Statement: [05:08–06:30]
• Analysis of U.S.-Iran Negotiation & Trump’s Position: [07:32–10:05]
• Lebanon’s Inclusion & Breakdowns in Ceasefire: [14:27–17:35]
• Iran and Pakistan Response: [17:35–20:11]
• Gulf Nations’ Role and Attacks: [33:42–36:40]
• Israel’s Bombing Campaign in Lebanon: [28:42–29:45]
• Yanis Varoufakis Interview: [42:16–58:23]
  • On Israel purposely undermining ceasefire: [42:44]
  • On China’s diplomatic positioning: [47:05]
  • On the decline of European influence: [49:10, 51:48]
  • On shifting maritime and global order: [55:52]
• Summary Reflections / Wrap-up: [58:18–58:23]

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Tone & Takeaways

• Language: Blunt, irreverent, often sardonic—hosts and guests directly challenge conventional narratives and official U.S. government positions.
• Overall Message: The Biden/Trump administration’s handling of the Iran/Israel/Lebanon crisis is exposed as inept and humiliating, with independent media filling the void of honest analysis. The regional order is shifting: U.S. influence is waning, China is ascendant as a quiet diplomatic superpower, Europe is sidelined, and the Gulf monarchies are newly vulnerable.
• Memorable Moment: The broadcast’s emotional tone peaks around the discussion of civilian casualties in Beirut and the blunt condemnation of Israeli ethnic cleansing, likening it to Nazi-era policies (36:50–37:31).

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For New Listeners

This summary should provide a comprehensive understanding of the episode’s deep dive into shifting Middle Eastern power dynamics, U.S. domestic and foreign policy struggles, Israel’s military actions, Gulf state anxieties, and China’s ascension—all in the unpredictable context of a crumbling ceasefire. The hosts’ unsparing style, paired with Varoufakis’ analysis, makes clear the scale of strategic, moral, and legal shifts underway.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Krystal Ball]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Krystal Ball]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see [e-mail]. Good morning, everybody. Happy Thursday. Have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Indeed we do. The ceasefire is on the verge of collapse this morning as Israel insists on continuing their mass murder in Lebanon. And Trump says go right ahead. Yanis Varoufakis is going to join us this morning to talk about the rise of Asia in the midst of this conflict and their role and give his overall thoughts on what is going on here. We've also got the Strait of Hormuz closed again because of that breakdown in the ceasefire. We'll take a look at the impact of oil both today and also its role in the conflict. Israelis promise that the war is not over. We also have a major Zionist freakout that we're going to take a look at. I'm sure you guys will enjoy that one, as we enjoyed putting the segment together. And an Iranian American scholar is going to join us to talk about how this war fits in in the long history of Iran and the likely reaction of the public to the way this has all gone down.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. An actual scholar, by the way, in Iran, not just some guy who owns a dry cleaning business in Los Angeles. All right, thank you to everybody who's been subscribing to the show. We Deeply appreciate it, breakingpoints.com, if you're able to support us. We did a bro show ama. So that's the type of special content that you can get if you pay and you subscribe. Please hit subscribe to our YouTube channel. We're already at 2.01 million subscribers. It's not as clean. What do you think, Crystal? So now I'm going for two. Two, two. I like that. You know, it's a. It's a nice number. 2.22.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Let's shoot for the stars.

[Krystal Ball]

You just want to keep. You want 3.0, 2.5. Okay, 2.5. All right, 2.5. With modest goals here over at Breaking

[Saagar Enjeti]

Point, by the way, Ryan Strong armed us into making the whole Friday show.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, that's right. When he announced that we had reality

[Saagar Enjeti]

on the ground, too.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, that's fine. All right, we're gonna do that for now. That's what Ryan does. Ryan calls the Shots around here. And finally, if you're listening to this podcast, please share an episode with a friend. Really helps other people. But with that, let's go ahead and start with the can you call it a ceasefire if the fire hasn't actually ceased? But here is Caroline Levitt from the White House podium. Yesterday, you will recall that Donald Trump and the Pakistani Prime Minister both announced that the ceasefire was contingent on a workable solution. That workable solution being the so called ten point plan from Iran. That ten point plan included the Iranian control of the Straits of Hormuz, their right to enrich uranium, their ability to have total sanctions relief, a cease fire in Lebanon. Well, the White House now saying actually that 10 point plan is thrown into the garbage even though the ceasefire itself remains. Let's take a listen.

[White House Press Secretary]

The Iranians originally put forward a 10 point plan that was fundamentally unserious, unacceptable and completely discarded. It was literally thrown in the garbage by President Trump and his negotiating team. Many outlets in this room have falsely reported on that plan as being acceptable to the United States. And that is false. With the President's deadline fast approaching and the United States military completely decimating Iran with each passing hour, the regime acknowledged reality to the negotiating team. They put forward a more reasonable and entirely different and condensed plan to the President and his team. President Trump and the team determined the new modified plan was a workable basis on which to negotiate and to align it with our own 15 point proposal. The President's red lines, namely the end of Iranian enrichment in Iran, have not changed. And the idea that President Trump would ever accept an Iranian wish list as a deal is completely absurd. The President will only make a deal that serves in the best interests of the United States of America. And he, as a negotiating team, will focus on this effort over the next two weeks. So long as the Strait of Hormuz remains open with no limitations or delays, these extraordinarily sensitive and complex negotiations will take place behind closed doors over the course of the next two weeks.

[Krystal Ball]

So you can see that we threw it into the trash. So then what exactly are we all negotiating about? And I know Ryan and Emily went over some of the ten point plan yesterday, but it is really worth saying like, first of all, the White House is like, well, the public 10 point plan, that's not the real 10 point plan, but the real 10 point plan we also threw in. So what are we negotiating about? I mean, the whole thing is totally preposterous and we're gonna get to in a second from the speaker of the Parliament, golubov Remember, he is the person who is going to be sitting across the table if these talks do happen on Saturday morning in Islamabad from the Vice President of the United States. Well, he is pretty clearly saying these are parts of the ten point plan. So there's been no cease. I mean, what did JD Call it? A fragile truce? That's probably the best descriptor. It's not a real ceasefire if the firing has not actually ceased. We're seeing stuff blow up all across the globe. The White House is so desperate, I think Trump was, for the oil markets to come down, so he was successful, and for the markets to rocket. But outside of that, nothing fundamental has been solved here. Absolutely nothing, no.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And it's very hard to see what happens next. So I'll just say, just to back up a second about how we got to this quote, unquote, ceasefire. Look, this is speculation, but there's a lot of intelligent people who have looked at the evidence of what exactly happened with this pilot capture. And I am persuaded by the evidence that they were trying to do some sort of a grab, the nukes, the nuclear material option, obviously catastrophic failure. And so then we saw Trump, like, lashing out with these insane posts, you know, open the fucking straight. And then, of course, we had the genocidal threats. So what he had wanted to be his off ramp and his mission accomplished moment had completely fallen apart. And that left him scrambling and desperate and realizing also that any other of their sort of farcical plans to take this island or that island or try to do this sort of invasion or that sort of invasion were also likely to end in utter and complete catastrophe. So that left him with few options. You know, from the Iranian side, yes, the points have shifted a little bit over time, but basically, since the beginning of the war, they have said, these are our priorities. This is what we want to end this war. And we don't want a temporary ceasefire. We want an end to a permanent end to hostilities. And we need guarantees that both are determined, insurance is strong enough, and also some international community guarantees that we're not going to end up back here again. So obviously, Trump is lying when he's like, oh, these 10 points you guys are talking about has nothing to do with it. He's just responding to the fact that people, when they looked, and I'm not just talking about liberals, leftists, anti war activists, whatever, when his supporters looked at what this basis for negotiation was, they said, this is the surrender. This is a complete and total defeat for the United States of America. So everything since then is him trying to obfuscate and spin that this decisive defeat is what it would effectively be, is not as bad as it looks. And then with regard to this piece on Lebanon, it is as clear as it could possibly be that Lebanon was part of the deal. That's what the Pakistani Prime Minister tweeted out in a tweet that was likely drafted by us.

[Krystal Ball]

No, not likely confirmed now, the New York Times.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It was confirmed that it was reviewed by us. Yeah. And very likely drafted directly by us. That included the language about Lebanon being included. So they're just lying now that that was never contemplated or that it was ambiguous. And that's J.D. vance's new line. It's like, oh, I think it's just a misunderstanding. No, you all are trying to go back on your word. Why? Because apparently you never, ever can stand up to Israel. And so now this whole thing hangs in the balance.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, exactly.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And again, to zoom out, I think your theory is very plausible. I definitely do think something was up. I don't know if it was the full operation. It was maybe dual use, just to see if we could establish the base. But that alone, I mean, it would be a huge failure if they had to blow it up. They said that they took artillery fire, that there was fire on target. All the Iranians in the area were firing. They had multiple aircraft that were shot down. But you're right. I mean, my only takeaway, I'm honestly sad, like, looking at it, I'm like, wow, like, we have been utterly humiliated by this country. Like, how much money have we all paid in taxes for these Tomahawk missiles and these aircraft carriers and these C130s and these E3s and these THAAD radars and how, you know, we've all not had healthcare as a result. And that was the trade. Europe gets to have healthcare. We get all the weapons, we get to guarantee the high seas and commerce and the empire, and then it all just comes crashing down. Like, the truth is, is that if this were to hold and the 10 points were to remotely become true, it would be the biggest strategic defeat for the United States since Vietnam. Professor Pape said that, and I totally agree with it. Because the full force of the US Military went in and tried to accomplish regime change, the reopening of the Straits of Hormuz and also the destruction of Iran's ballistic missile capacity and as well as their drones. We did not accomplish any of that. They retain all of that now. Has it been diminished? Sure. And clearly, though, you know, the Iranians the one change they made in their strategic calculus. And I'm still very curious as to how this all came about. They did agree ultimately to a temporary ceasefire. I don't know why. From what I have asked around, their belief was not that Trump ultimately would destroy their power plants, et cetera, and that while that might be survivable, I think that what they fear the most is actually being nuked by Israel, is that ultimately the longer this would be going on. And so they said, well, let's at least try to have some sort of a temporary ceasefire in the interim. By the way, aren't we always told that they're insane theocrats, suicidal? It's like, well, you know, if you ask me, you know, if you have somebody who's fooled you twice in the COVID of diplomatic renegotiations, to me, it's actually irrational to try and have a temporary ceasefire. Just me. I'm glad they did it. To be very clear, very glad Trump did this, very glad the Iranians did this. But it could still very much easily collapse.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, it's collapsing in real time. As we watch, I think we're gonna learn more about the role of. In all of this, potentially on both sides. I mean, carrots to Iran. And also, look, our entire industrial base hangs in the balance, based on China's good graces of whether or not we're gonna have access to their rare earth supply and all the supply lines that they have sort of like, locked down, at least for the near term. Cause we haven't done the work that we need to do to make sure we have our own domestic capabilities with that regard. So I think we'll learn more about China's role here. But, you know, according to Jeremy, and, you know, I listen to him, obviously, with great interest, by the way, shout out to Dropsite. Like, anyone who's reading Drop knows so much more of how this is gonna go and what the truth is than I think anyone else in the world. But in any case, Jeremy says, effectively, the Iranians have always said, yeah, we're willing to end the war. Here are our demands. And so when the US Was like, okay, we accept your demands, at least as a basis for negotiation, and you have China coming in, and they're genuinely taking a lot of heat, and under pressure, et cetera, there was a sense of, okay, well, let's give it a shot, and let's see. But Lebanon, all of the fronts of war were very clearly included. And obviously, we know that Israel does not want to end this war. They're Doing everything they can. Bibi has come out and said that the war is not over. We wanna go back and achieve our objectives. There's a huge revolt from the population of like, well, Iran still exists and they're stronger than ever. So it was utterly predictable that Israel would come in and do whatever they can to blow this thing up. And it happened even faster than I could have possibly expected that not only did they continue their invasion and ethnic cleansing and bombing campaign in Lebanon, they dramatically, dramatically escalated it. I referenced before JD Vance talking about like, oh, I think this is just like a little misunderstanding which again total nonsense. This was very much clearly articulated and clearly contemplated in the agreement for this ceasefire while larger end of the war is worked out. But let's go ahead and take a listen to him claiming that this was just a misunderstanding.

[Krystal Ball]

There seems to be a disagreement about

[Yanis Varoufakis]

whether Lebanon was included in this proposal.

[Krystal Ball]

And the speaker of the Parliament, you're going to sit across from the table from an Islamabad.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

It's just said that he thinks negotiations

[Krystal Ball]

would be unreasonable while that war is ongoing. So would you ask Israel to hold

[Israeli Military/Official Statement]

off strikes to allow some space for these? Well, first of all, I know there's been some conversations between the Israelis and the leadership of our country today. I haven't been involved in that because I've been busy doing stuff in Hungary. I'm actually supposed to get an update when I get on the plane. But let me say a couple things. First of all, I actually think, and there's a lot of bad faith negotiation and a lot of bad faith propaganda going on. I think this comes from a legitimate misunderstanding. I think the Iranians thought that the ceasefire included Lebanon and it just didn't. We never made that promise. We never indicated that was going to be the case. What we said is that the ceasefire would be focused on Iran and the ceasefire would be focused on America's allies, both Israel and the Gulf Arab states. Now that said, the Israelis, as I understand it, again, I'm supposed to get a fuller report when I get on the plane, have actually offered to be frankly to check themselves a little bit in Lebanon because they want to make sure that our negotiation is successful. That's not, because that is part of the cease fire. I think that's the Israelis trying to set us up for success and we'll of course see how that unfolds in the next few days.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So I mean you can see the way the sort of choice arrays that's up here both for Iran and for the US for the Iran. For Iran, they have to decide how committed are we to Lebanon based on what Trita Parsi has been saying, I think they are committed to Lebanon not just because that they see them as like human beings who shouldn't be slaughtered and ethnically cleansed, but more important, they see the escalation into Lebanon and the attacks on Palestinians as a threat to their own security, because that always means that the thing can expand and be a new conflagration. Exactly.

[Krystal Ball]

They literally call themselves brothers. Of course, they've given them weapons. Also Hezbollah put it all on the line for Iran. Right. So they decided to try and draw fire from Israel and get themselves bombed to try and to deplete Israeli interceptors and expand. It was successful. They literally forced it. Not force. Israel decided to invade Lebanon, basically ethnically cleanse half of the country and probably annex it for some time in the future. But like that, you can't just abandon. It'd be like if the United States was fighting with somebody else. And then we said, okay, well, we'll have a ceasefire bilaterally, but the person who launched a war on your behalf is that person. We just leave them out to drive.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, we would probably do that, but anyway, maybe the Iranians won't, but

[Krystal Ball]

maybe it'd be worth it if it was totally existential. But it's not.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right. And then for the US US you got to choose. Do you want the Strait of Hormuz to be operable, or do you want to let Israel rampage? You know, and that's, that's the choice. And I would err on the side of thinking that Trump's going to allow Israel to rampage. Certainly seems the direction that they're leaning in right now. But he also watches the market so closely. We know how much that drives his behavior, not just with regard to oil prices, but with regard to the bond markets, with regard to the stock markets. So these are two very powerful competing forces within the Trump presidency, which is why it's so hard to predict what's going to happen next.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, look, I have no idea, but we do know that the Iranians are sticking to their guns. Let's put a three up there on the screen. This was an initial statement from the speaker, Golubov. He said a statement on the violation of three key causes of the 10 point proposal before the start of negotiations. The deep historical trust that we hold towards the United States stems from its repeated violations of all forms of commitments, a pattern that has regrettably been repeated. Again, as the President of the United States has clearly stated in his truth The Islamic Republic of Iran's 10 point proposal is a workable basis on which to negotiate. However, three clauses have been violated. Number one, non compliance with the first clause of the 10 point proposal regarding the ceasefire in Lebanon, A commitment that the Prime Minister has also explicitly referred to and declared as an immediate ceasefire everywhere, including Lebanon and other regions, effective immediately. Number two, the entry of an intruding drone into Iranian airspace, which was destroyed in the city of Lar in Fars province in a clear violation of the clause prohibiting any further violation. That by the way, appears to have been an Israeli drone. Number three is denial of Iran's right to enrichment, which was included in the sixth clause of the framework. So look, I mean, we don't have the full 10 point proposal, whatever it is. But that's from Iran, that's what they're saying. And that is a total defeat for the United States. Cuz it doesn't even just include the Straits of Hormuz. Now Golubov has followed that up early this morning. Let's go ahead and put this one up there on the screen, guys. He says Lebanon and the entire resistance axis as Iran's allies, form an inseparable part of the ceasefire. Prime Minister Shabazz Sharif publicly and clearly stressed Lebanon issue. There is no room for denial and backtracking. Ceasefire violations carry explicit costs and strong responses. Extinguish the fire immediately. So that is what he said. Now to be very clear, he is correct about the Prime Minister, Shabbat Sharif. Let's put a 4 please on the screen. This is the original announcement of the ceasefire from Shabazz Sharif of Pakistan. With the greatest humility, I am pleased to announce that the Islamic Republic of Iran and the United States of America along with their allies have agreed to an immediate ceasefire everywhere, including Lebanon and elsewhere, effective immediately. This was the announcement from Pakistan which was the interlocutor between the United States and Iran in these talks. Lebanon is explicitly said there. So when the Vice President and the President and the White House all say that this was some sort of confusion, there's no confusion. The confusion is on our end. And it's very clear what happened is that we either didn't consult the Israelis, haphazardly agreed to it, and they're like,

[Yanis Varoufakis]

oh, I'm not doing that.

[Krystal Ball]

They're like, I'm not agreeing to that at all. And again, just further confirmation on that point, here is the Pakistani Ambassador to the United nations explicitly saying Lebanon is included. Let's take a listen.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Mr. President. We echo the Secretary General's Deep concern regarding the regional military escalation since 28 February, which has gravely undermined the November 2024 cessation of hostilities agreement. The situation in Lebanon cannot be viewed in isolation from this broader escalation. Across the Middle east, heightened confrontation and unjustified attacks on several brotherly countries, which Pakistan has condemned, have gravely aggravated regional security and stability. At this critical juncture, dialogue and diplomacy must prevail over confrontation. De escalation, restraint and renewed diplomatic engagement are urgently required to prevent further deterioration of the regional security environment. Only through sustained political dialogue and respect for international law can the region move towards stability and peace.

[Krystal Ball]

So that's where things stand as of this morning. It's early here in the morning. Things could certainly change. Maybe these Israelis will back off Lebanon. I don't think so. I highly doubt it. But the US and Iran are not on the same page. The US says that it's a 15 point plan which is the basis for negotiations. Those 15 points were the ones that were reiterated by Steve Wyckoff from the very beginning of the war, which said, you have no enrichment, you have no sanctions relief, you have to give up all your missiles, you have to give up all your proxies, you have to reopen the Straits of Hormuz. All this different stuff. Iran is saying we control the Straits of Hormuz, we give up all the, you give up all the sanctions, we get to keep our missiles, we get to have a ceasefire in Lebanon. Which is it? I have no clue. And I mean right now, I don't know, maybe this is all a disaster, but as long as people can sit across the table in Islamabad, I have some hope that something could come out of this. Of course, even if that were to happen, it's not like we haven't bombed them on the COVID of darkness or. Look, we also, this is the problem here and the fragility of all of this. And the fact that, by the way, reporting is that not a single part of this was written down anywhere. That's why everyone can claim this was agreed to and that was agree to. Let's think about it. Ceasefire. The United States forces a ceasefire in Gaza in the opening days of the administration. Great. But guess what happens after 30 days? It collapses. Israel gets to do whatever it wants. A 12 day war. We bomb it, Everybody declares victory. What happens seven months later? We're back into a regime change war. Even if we do get into an agreement here, I mean, if you're Iran, if you're any of us, would you really bet against Israel's ability to either sabotage or to drag the United States or convince Trump once again they'll show him some BS images like look, enriching uranium. It's all fake, but who knows, right? His own advisors will tell him it's fake, but maybe he will believe them. Like that's the cycle. We got three more years left of this. I mean it's just, how can you truly guarantee that this is gonna end? You can't.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, and here's the thing too is Trump has to be able to sell some kind of victory narrative, at least to his base, right? The rest of the population is not gonna buy it, but at least his base has to believe that this went well for us and we won and we got something out of it. And, and I don't know how you do that given the state of affairs and what Iran is going to rightly demand. I mean even if you dramatically water down their 10 point proposal, you still have a clear US defeat. Which countries around the world are gonna recognize, which even Fox News, I watched them a bit and at first they were very much doing the like Trump art of the deal and he made this threat and all the panicans were freaking out, but look at how he was able to secure peace in the world, blah blah, blah by the next morning when you had too much reporting on what these 10. I mean we've known about what the 10 points are more or less for quite a while now, thanks to the reporting of Ryan and Jeremy and others. But once the mainstream press started having to talk about well, what are these 10 points? Even Fox News could no longer be like, look at this marvelous victory because we're talking about reparations, we're talking about complete sanctions relief and we're talking about a new status quo in the Strait of Hormuz that amounts to tens of, at the least tens of billions of dollars. JP Morgan stuff of revenue into Iran's coffers.

[Krystal Ball]

JP Morgan said it would be 92 billion a year if they just charged the $1 million a barrel fee. That would make them one of the richest countries in the entire Middle East. I mean I would put a marker down 25 years from now if they get anything remotely close to this, either sanctions relief or some sort of oil, they will be as rich, if not richer than the UAE and these other places.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is already a middle income country that has been dramatically hurt certainly by our sanctions. But this is a relatively well developed, educated country with natural resources, obviously very strategic positioning in the globe. That's why when Robert Pape says. They have now emerged as a new fourth world power. I don't think that that is overstating the case whatsoever. And so that's what makes it so difficult to see how this is resolved and why. Obviously the decision to get into this disastrous war was such a horrific, catastrophic mistake from the interests of the US Empire perspective, because in order to bring it to a close, you are going to have to agree to something like what those 10 points from the Iranians are. And I just, I don't know if even Donald Trump, who is perhaps the greatest bullshit artist in history, if even he can sell that as some sort of a victory to his base in this country.

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[Krystal Ball]

but let's turn to Lebanon just to give people a very clear view into what's happening over there. We had this announcement from the idf, by the way, after the ceasefire. Here's what they had to say.

[Israeli Military/Official Statement]

The IDF just carried out the largest strike against Hezbollah terrorists since the beginning of Operation Roaring line. In just one minute, the IDF struck 100 Hezbollah military targets in different locations across Lebanon. The targets include command centers, missile infrastructure, and assets used by the Radouan Special Forces. This operation was based on weeks of precise intelligence and careful planning. These strikes come as Hezbollah changes the way it is operating. In recent weeks, the IDF intelligence identified Hezbollah moving beyond its usual strongholds and building positions in more areas across Lebanon, including civilian neighborhoods. Hezbollah's use of civilians as human shields is their strategy. Strategy. Hezbollah dragged Lebanon into this war and it is now trying to spread that danger to even more Lebanese communities. Our message is we are fighting Hezbollah, not the people of Lebanon. We said this from day one. We will not allow Hezbollah to pose a threat to our civilians.

[Krystal Ball]

Interesting accent. Unstuden. Clearly almost like it's from around here. Anyway, if you take a look at what that gentleman was saying about they're not at war with the people of Le so let's go ahead and play some of a seven, shall we? This is what the strikes were in the middle of Beirut and in Lebanon. You can clearly see smoke and apartment buildings and all of these civilian areas. The Belgian foreign minister yesterday actually revealed that he was in Lebanon while this was happening and had to take shelter from very close to where the strikes were happening. Imagine our Secretary of State. So this is a European Union foreign minister who's literally in the country had no idea that this was happening. You could see some of the rubble, children and civilians and others that were buried underneath Israel, taking credit, saying, oh, well, we killed about 200 Hezbollah commanders as a result of this operation. The operation, by the way, is called Operation Eternal Darkness. I did not make that up. They did, which Tucker's episode made clear to me. Again, as a secular person, I wasn't aware that's apparently how they refer to hell in the Bible in the New Testament. So potentially a hell, a, you know, a biblical meaning intended in some of this. Let's put a 8 up there as well, just to show you all this was one which appeared to be a funeral which was struck. And you can see actually some of the caskets and other things of the damage that was done there. Again, I'm sure that they're claiming it was a Hezbollah funeral possible. Not really usual in terms of most Western countries, but of course, par for the course. Course. Drop site has the roundup here. Let's put it up there. In terms of the death toll, they say Israeli strikes killed 254 and wounded 1,000 across Lebanon. From Lebanon civil defense, the figures represent the toll for a single day. Based on the data, Beirut had 92 killed, 742 injured. The southern suburbs had 61, 200 injured. And then various other districts all across the country, you could see with dozens killed and multiple hundreds of people that were injured as a result of the strike. So that's what's happening right now. Not to mention. Let's put a 10 up there on the screen. This part is very relevant, Crystal. Saudi Arabia, uae, Kuwait, Qatar and Bahrain all reported attacks after the Iran US Truce. Now you may say, wow, crazy Iran. Why would they do something like that? It turns out, though, that there was a very mysterious attack again after the truce or the fragile truce was struck in which Iran reported that a key energy strike of it or energy site of it was struck. Now, we do not yet know who carried out that strike. The United States military has said it wasn't them. The Israelis have not said either. There is some speculation inside of Iran that this was the United Arab Emirates that carried out the strike. Now, why does that matter? Because as we have said here now ad nauseam him, it's not just Israel that doesn't want this truce. The Gulf finds it untenable. They're like, we can't be paying the Iranians, not after they've bombed the hell out of all of our countries. And that's why I think Iran was so forceful in its reaction against all the Gulf countries, not just because they believe it was a uae. Clearly they think that it was, but that's why they struck the east west pipeline in Saudi Arabia. That's why they struck oil infrastructure in Bahrain, oil infrastructure in the uae. It was a message also to the Gulf. So don't just forget it's not just Israel that wants to drag us back in, it's these Gulf countries too. Because for them, UAE in particular, UAE in particular, they've been, I mean, they're not even hiding it. They went before the UN to try and authorize a use of force resolution. Like, they're pretty open, they want regime change. Their boosters all over Twitter, you can go and look, are like, this is unacceptable. We need regime change right now. So their aims are expressed explicit at this point.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, for, I would say it's more existential for UAE than it is for Israel. I mean, Israel's nuclear arms, you know, they throw their weight around. Obviously they've still got our backing, et cetera. UAE has been exposed as completely vulnerable. I mean, this is basically sort of like a fake state to begin with. And so they now that are, they're in this position are like, okay, how are Dubai and Abu Dhabi ever gonna come back? So long as we have the specter of this same government in power that was hitting our high rise luxury hotels and all of the wealthy expats are fleeing and probably a lot of the indentured servant labor force, exploited labor force will also look for greener pastures as well. So they feel that this is quite existential for them. And I don't think that they're wrong about that. So that's why they are now so committed that they're the ones that went to the UN to try to pass this resolution through Security Council, which failed to, to open the Strait of Hormuz by any means necessary. That was the provision they took the resolution they took to the UN and then they've also said, which is why it is not at all unbelievable that they were behind these strikes, that they would join directly as direct combatants, not just allowing us use of their space and cooperating, but actually directly joining themselves as combatants. So that appears to be what may be happening right now. Just with regard to Lebanon. The level of death and destruction here is just, just really horrifying. The attacks on medics, the attacks on civilian apartment buildings, the attacks on all the infrastructure there. And it's worth keeping in mind the Dahiya Doctrine, which many of you will have heard about this came because Dahiya is a Shia section of Beirut. This comes directly out of Israel's war in Lebanon in 2006. And the idea is that you bomb the hell out of civilian infrastructure and put pressure on them so that Hezbollah, or in the case of Gaza, so that Hamas loses support. Now, this has not been effective in terms of a strategy. It turns out to just be, you know, basically seeking bloodlust and to satiate a society that is increasingly genocidal, but that comes directly out of Lebanon. That appears to be very much what they're doing here as well. Bibi, we're going to talk more about this later, has made it clear he doesn't want the war over. A lot of the most stringent Zionists, both here and in Israel, they are very upset with the possibility that the war could be over. They want to continue this thing indefinitely. They at least want to be able to go back to sort of most the lawn strategy with regard to Iran. And so they are doing everything they can to blow up any even shred of a possibility of ending the war. And so not only are they continuing with their illegal invasion of Lebanon, which apparently doesn't have a right to exist, unlike Israel, which we're told about all the time, but anyway, they're continuing with that invasion, but they also escalated it dramatically. And the level of death is comparable to some of the worst day that we saw in Gaza, just mass slaughtering. And you could see that in the images.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, sorry, I tweeted about this ethnic cleansing people. What are you talking about? They literally said a million of you have to go. Yeah. And they warned Christians. And anybody who wants to come back can't come back. Near the border.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

What do you call that?

[Saagar Enjeti]

They warned Christians against hiding.

[Israeli Military/Official Statement]

I know.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Shia Muslims. It's like, I mean, look, sorry. The parallels with the Nazi regime could not be more undeniable.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm just like, look, you know, take the rhetoric for what it is. You can look at the IDF account. They drew a map. It's almost half of Lebanon. And they said everyone below the map has to leave. What do you call that? Just tell me what. Tell me a better one. A temporary evacuation. In which, by the way, they also say we will never allow those homes to be rebuilt near our border. That's like us going into Northern Mexico and what's the city across from El Paso? And just being like, yeah, you all gotta go. Sorry, there's too much drug violence. Every single one of you. You're no longer allowed to live here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They already have completely destroyed a number of Lebanese villages, just wiped them off the map, like that is what they're up to here. And so, yeah, you can see from the Iranian perspective, first of all, you've got just the horror of allowing that to continue. Second of all, Hezbollah is an important part of how they do project regional power. And Hezbollah has proven a lot of the analysis wrong. I mean, they were really seen to have been effectively destroyed, destroyed and dramatically weakened by the beeper attack from Israel and obviously their top leadership had been assassinated, et cetera. They've proven to be much more resilient and much stronger than was expected. They've operated very effectively in coordination with Iran. So Iran is not going to be excited about seeing that capability and that force projection given up. So, yeah, you can see why Iran is drawing a hard line in the sand on this and has been clear from the very first time we learned anything about what their requirements were to end the war. Lebanon was included in that. And if Trump and J.D. vance and Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner thought that the Iranians would just go, well, I guess Lebanon can continue to get decimated and Hezbollah destroyed and we'll just look the other way. I think we already see that that was a completely wrong calculation, as evidenced by the fact not only the rhetoric from the Iranians, which is one thing, but the fact that they went ahead ahead and completely close the straight of Hormuz. Now, where previously there was some tanker traffic going through, now the situation is actually worse. Yesterday there were zero oil tankers that went through the Strait of Hormuz based on the publicly available data.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, that's right. All right, we got Yanis starting by. Let's get to it.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

for more on the state of the war or this quote, unquote, ceasefire, we're fortunate to be joined this morning by Janice Verifak, as he, of course, is, is the former finance Minister of Greece and host of the Ikana Class podcast. Great to see you, sir.

[Krystal Ball]

Good to see you.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Thank you for having me back.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, of course. So, first, just your reaction to whatever is going on right now. Do you think that it's possible we could secure some sort of a lasting peace here? Or has this already fallen apart?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

No, I don't think it's fallen apart. I mean, allow me to preface my assessment with my astonishment that, you know, Donald Trump persecuted the war, which is a textbook case of how not to start a war, how not to prosecute it, and how not to end it. The essence of the ceasefire is, of course, as you are pointing out in your program so far, it's just a totally ramshackle, It's a mess. But even though you can see that it is being undermined by Israel, the reason why Netanyahu continues to commit massacres, not just to continue to persecute the war in Lebanon, but actually, you know, he upped the end with what can only be described as a massacre the other day in response to the ceasefire. It's because Netanyahu is trying to undermine the ceasefire. Netanyahu's mantle has always been. Has always been permanent war in the area. Constantly trying to distract public opinion in the United States, in Europe, in the rest of the world, from the genocide in Gaza, from the ethnic cleansing, in particular in the west bank and in East Jerusalem. So he will do whatever it takes to make sure that some war is happening. It doesn't necessarily need to be Lebanon. It can be in Yemen, it can be in Jordan. It can be somewhere. And he still has Donald Trump hooked, because there is no doubt in my mind that when the Pakistani General, Field Marshal, whatever his title is, when he announced that Lebanon was included in the ceasefire, surely he didn't do this without the support of the Trump administration. So clearly, Netanyahu is undermining Trump. That's what Israel does. It undermines the interests of the United States and always succeeds in roping the United States States into its ethnic cleansing genocidal campaign. So that's point number one. Point number two is that the deal that is being fashioned as we speak is a major victory for Iran. I mean, did you see what J.P. morgan did? I mean, they did the arithmetic and they discovered that the state of Iran is going to make out of charging tolls on vessels crossing the Straits of Hormuz, they will make something between 70 and 90 billion dollars a year. It's important to juxtapose this against what Panama makes. From the Panama Canal it makes five, or you know, Egypt from the Suez canal it makes 10. So the Iranians are going to be making between 70 and 90 billion. This given the sanctions so on. This represents around 20, 25% of national income of GDP. They've come out pretty nicely out of this. They have had the consent of the Gulf states that they were bombarding, in my view, in self defense, but nevertheless they were bombarding Qatar, the United Arab Emirates and those the GCC countries, the Gulf State Council countries, have consented to these stores being charged, it seems, from what I read. So it is a complete catastrophe for Donald Trump. But there is one silver lining for him, that he's found an excuse, an off ramp for getting out of a war that he knows he should never have allowed himself to get into.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Sir, one thing I'm curious, an angle that we've seen under explored here is how much of the ceasefire was just the United States. There was some reporting. Let's put B1 up there on the screen. The Chinese Foreign Ministry now coming out and taking a significant amount of credit. Allegedly it was them who made several calls to Tehran to try and to force some sort of a ceasefire or at the very least get them to the table. It seems to have been very influential to the new Ayatollah and to the Supreme National Security Council in Iran. What do you make here of China's role in explicitly pushing this role towards a ceasefire and in some ways working as some sort of an intermediary or almost guarantor of parts of Iranian national security and energy policy.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

There is no doubt whatsoever that the great winner out of this awful murderous war is China. China. From the, from the moment that Tomahawk missile hit that school in southern Iran onwards, China has been winning. They don't need to do anything. They just need to sit back, relax to the extent that it is possible to relax these days with the massacres that we watch and just take the credit for being the adults in the room internationally, for being reliable partners to anyone that they have done business with, of not flip flopping, of not threatening with Armageddon and you know, a civilization like Iran or any country for that matter. Now, regarding the particular diplomatic engagement of China, well, this is not the first time, is it Sagar? Let's not forget that it was China that brokered a hugely important deal between Iran and, on the one hand, Saudi Arabia. That was back in 2020. 2020. And then with the United Arab Emirates, you know, the Saudis, after decades of animosity towards Tehran, opened an embassy in Tehran, and that was done. With the Chinese working their diplomatic magic behind the scenes, it was a source of major, major discontentment from Washington D.C. both under the Biden administration and now under Trump. But China has been playing this game very cleverly. Having said that, let's not give them too much credit for it, because it is as if Washington D.C. is doing its best to lose every diplomatic brownie point America has ever won since 1944.

[Krystal Ball]

True.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, and equally, perhaps significant is the lack of involvement from Europe in securing at least this fragile ceasefire, whatever we're calling this thing right now. China was obviously involved, Pakistan very much involved, involved. Turkey reportedly, and Egypt somewhat involved. But the main players are not in Western Europe.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Sadly. I'm saying sadly, as a European and a Europeanist who has been observing this European Union of ours sliding steadfastly into an unethical irrelevance. The moment we, not we as persons, but as the European Union went all out to support Israel's genocide in Gaza, we lost every kind of opportunity that ever presented itself to occupy the high moral ground, to open lines of communication with Arab countries, with Israel itself. Because, you know, Netanyahu looks at the European leaders and sees Lillipatians, that he can do whatever, he can wipe the floor clean with them and they may say a few things here and there, but then they will fall into the line. And the moment Israel starts bombarding Iran illegally and criminally, the Europeans either whistle in the wind or allow the Americans to use their bases like the British base on Cyprus in Akrotiri, that Keir Starmer, whatever he might have said against the Donald Trump campaign, Iran essentially provided to the United States Air Force to launch sorties against Iran. So the Europeans have rendered themselves, themselves, unethically irrelevant yet again. And, you know, it's, It's. I have a theory because I was involved in the great euro crisis 10 years ago. And beyond that, it's the euro crisis the way we mishandled it. We, you know, the powers that be crushed our populations with austerity for the many, while printing trillions and trillions of euros for the very few. We don't have a government. We have many different governments. We have a commission that nobody has ever elected. So it lacks democratic credibility, legitimation. And you can see that ever since that euro crisis happened, and then with the Pandemic. It was a pathetic response to the pandemic. Heads of states got together and decided to borrow together, something like 800 billion. And they started passing it on from one country to another as if this was some kind of meeting of the mafiosis. It delving, delving, diving up between them, some loot. So Europe has been on a steady decline for a very long time, and you can see this now playing out just strategically. Also, the situation in Ukraine, I mean, it is an idle mess. The European policy towards Ukraine. They don't have a policy for peace in Ukraine and they don't have a policy for war in Ukraine. I think that says it all.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, right.

[Krystal Ball]

You know, sir, I want to get your reaction to some of the later breaking news here out of Washington. There is an alleged comment by Mark Rutt that he told NATO countries that they must dispatch warships or Donald Trump will threaten some sort of action against NATO. How do you see the likelihood of this considering NATO's straddling game that they've been playing? They've been supportive of the United States. They've also been been largely supportive of the US Aims, at the very least rhetorically, in some sort of Iranian regime change or ballistic missile reduction, but also not wanting to get involved in the crisis. How are they going to handle this if the US Continues to try and put pressure on them to deploy warships, even now, in the midst of a ceasefire, to the Straits of Hormuz?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Well, to begin with, whether warships are deployed or not is irrelevant because if you're sitting on your own and you have your missiles and your drones, you don't care about warships. All you need to do is to get one of the tankers or two that's sufficient. So those warships are going to be fighting a losing battle. Now, look, the more interesting question is, why did Donald Trump and his marry men, mostly men? Why did they contradict themselves? Because on the one hand, Donald Trump has been dismissing Britain, Germany, France as military dwarfs, and he's not wrong to say that, you know, Britain couldn't even send a single vessel to the Gulf. They just didn't have it. It wasn't available. One that they sent had to be turned back for servicing. So, you know, that was a strategy, Donald Trump, disparaging the Europeans as useless militarily and therefore saying that, you know, NATO is a great drain on the United States and forcing the Europeans to pay more. Since you can't do the work, the defensive or offensive work, and you rely on Americans to do it, you pay, you rascals that was a kind of position by Donald Trump and his administration. Now that he's calling upon the Europeans to come and help him clear the states of Hormuz, it is as if he's saying he's admitting that they do have a power which they are, however, not using. So he has to, you know, it shows desperation on the part part of Donald Trump and his administration. He had a strategy which made some sense of being dismissive to the Europeans. Now he's contradicting himself. Look, the future of NATO is severely circumscribed and darkened by what has happened. I think that the belief, the faith in some kind of alignment that is structurally constructed between the United States and the European Union, I think that's gone. And that's gone independently of who is in the White House. It's going to be eroded. I think it's a good thing, personally. Me, too, because it was never in the interest of Europe. In the end, it wasn't in the interests of the people of the United States. Maybe the military industrial complex did really very well out of that. But Europe now is in dire straits. They have to decide that NATO is not for them, that NATO is not in their interests anymore. They can't decide that because they are so heavily invested in the concept of NATO. So they will be like, you know, rabbits that are caught up in the headlights of the oncoming truck.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yanis, I want to get your perspective on how much the world has changed as a result of this war. Whether it's right now they're able to come to an agreement, or the Americans decide they want more pain before we come to some sort of an agreement to end this war, I think we can see basically the outlines of what is going to emerge. You're very likely to have more or less the Iranian 10 points put into action, including a new status quo, new reality around the Strait of Hormuz. So how much does that resolution of this war change the global order?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Oh, hugely. Firstly, it changed the law of the state sea. You know, up until now, the notion that you would have to pay at all in order to cross through international waters was unheard of. Donald Trump put this on the map. And, you know, if the Iranians managed to do this in order to recoup some of the funds that are necessary in order to rebuild that which Israel and the United States destroyed during the last few weeks, well, what next? Maybe the Houthis will start charging for letting vessels go through the Red Sea. Maybe other nations or groups or organizations will start doing the same. Thing. A precedent has been set. So international law has been changed. Mind you, of course, international law was totally rubbished by Israel every time it ethnically cleansed the Palestinians in Gaza against the direct order of the international criminal, criminal, not criminal in the international court of justice, I should say. The United States has done this a number of times. The illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003 by George W. So you know, but still the law of the sea had not been challenged to such a vicious extent. Now it is in smithereens. Also the fact that the Gulf States, states will have to rewrite, at least in their minds, their business model. Their business model is kaput. It cannot continue as it is. And the Gulf states were crucial in the American design of the Middle east all the way from Morocco all the way to Iran, maybe all the way to Pakistan. There was a plan for how to base the, the strategy of the United States and of Israel on the Abraham Accords of effectively luring Gulf states, the Gulf states into some kind of geo economic alliance with the United States and with Israel. That would be the 30 pieces of silver that they needed in order to betray further the Palestinians. That's gone. That plan has gone. And as you said in your previous question, now we have a resurgence, urgent Chinese diplomacy that is working very methodically behind the scenes, providing the stability and the trust that the United States has so casually jeopardized. Wow.

[Krystal Ball]

Stark warning, but as great. Always good analysis. Thank you very much, sir. We appreciate your time.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Thank you.

[Krystal Ball]

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