5/27/26: We Asked A Top Liberal Zionist How They Can Be Pro-Israel

Summary

Podcast Summary: Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode: Is Liberal Zionism DEAD w/ Israel Lobby PRESIDENT
Date: May 27, 2026
Guests: Jeremy Ben-Ami (President, J Street)
Interviewers: Krystal Ball, Ryan Grim

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Episode Overview

This episode features a comprehensive and candid conversation with Jeremy Ben-Ami, President of J Street, the prominent liberal pro-Israel advocacy group. The discussion critically examines the current role of liberal Zionism amidst global outrage over Israel’s war in Gaza, the shift in both American and Israeli politics, the evolution of J Street’s positions, and fundamental questions about pressure, accountability, and the future viability of a Jewish democratic state.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Jeremy Ben-Ami’s Background

• J Street’s Mission and Controversies ([02:27-05:57])
  • J Street was founded in 2008 to create political space for Democrats to criticize Israeli government actions without being labeled anti-Semitic.
  • Ben-Ami’s family is rooted in Israeli history: "Every family thinks that their grandparent was the first kid born in Tel Aviv...he was among the first kids born." (Jeremy Ben-Ami, [05:08])
  • Despite this heritage, Israel’s ambassador recently called J Street a “cancer” and labeled Ben-Ami and Bernie Sanders “fake Jews.”

2. Israeli Politics: Government and Public Opinion

• Extremism in the Israeli Government ([05:57-07:31])

  • Ben-Ami forcefully criticizes the current Israeli leadership:

    "We’re dealing with a prime minister...and a government in Israel that is made up of the most loathsome people who have perverted the idea of what it should be to have a national homeland of the Jewish people." (Jeremy Ben-Ami, [06:24])

• Public Opinion and Democratic Will ([07:38-10:30])

  • Krystal challenges the idea that the problem is just the government: a majority of Israelis now endorse deeply extreme positions.
  • Ben-Ami admits a "huge problem" with Israeli public opinion but insists it is always legitimate to challenge majority opinion.
  • He predicts Netanyahu will lose power but notes that even a center-right replacement will not adopt J Street’s positions.

3. J Street’s Evolution on Military Aid and Accountability

• From Conditionality to Ending Aid ([10:30-14:04])
  • J Street’s position shifted over the years from opposing any conditionality on U.S. aid to now calling for ending all military subsidies to Israel:

    "We have provided a blank check to Israel throughout the entirety of the US-Israel relationship, and to no one else in the world do we provide a blank check." (Jeremy Ben-Ami, [13:05])

  • J Street also opposes diplomatic immunity for Israel at the UN and calls for treating Israel as “every other country.”

4. J Street’s Place in the Democratic Base and the Wider Left

• Is J Street Now Mainstream, Not Vanguard? ([14:04-18:43])
  • The Democratic base now overwhelmingly labels Israel’s actions as “genocide” and supports sanctions.
  • Krystal:

    "...it seems that J Street’s position vis a vis the democratic base has become more aligned with the status quo on Israel than with pushing the vanguard." ([15:59])

  • Ben-Ami acknowledges the base’s shift but maintains J Street centers on solutions over punishment:

    "Our interest in all of this is in building a better future, right? We want to focus on solutions, not on how do we demonstrate our anger." ([16:24])

5. Pressure, Boycotts, and the Two-State Solution Debate

• Pressure and Sanctions vs. Engagement ([18:43-20:53])

  • Krystal presses for South Africa–style international pressure.
  • Ben-Ami supports the right to boycott but distinguishes J Street as working “from within” due to its deep Jewish ties.

• Viability of the Two-State Solution ([20:53-24:41])

  • Ryan notes many see the two-state solution as impossible due to settlements and segregation.
  • Ben-Ami pushes back, arguing for the necessity of both a Palestinian and an Israeli state, emphasizing equal rights but separate states.

6. The Liberal Zionist Dilemma

• Reconciling Liberalism with a Jewish State ([26:44-32:51])
  • Krystal calls the idea of a “liberal Zionist” inherently contradictory, describing Israel as a “sort of ethno-supremacist state.”
  • Ben-Ami rejects the ethno-supremacist label:

    "The idea that there should be one place on the planet where the Jewish people can claim citizenship because of who they are...that is what the State of Israel was founded on." ([27:43])

  • Argues for equal rights and that “having a state that has an ethnic identity is not per se ethno-nationalist.”

7. Conditions for U.S. Arms Sales and Sanctions

• Where Should the Line Be Drawn? ([35:14-44:35])
  • Ryan and Krystal push Ben-Ami on whether J Street now supports an arms embargo.
  • Ben-Ami: End all U.S. financial assistance and offensive weapons sales as long as Israel violates American/international law, but maintain sales of “defensive systems” like Iron Dome.
  • Krystal counters that defensive weapons also enable Israeli impunity, but Ben-Ami insists they prevent even greater violence.

8. The U.S.-Israel Alliance: Cost, Morality, and Realism

• What Is the Alliance For? ([47:41-52:33])
  • Krystal questions the utility and morality of the U.S.-Israel alliance, given strategic and ethical costs.
  • Ben-Ami replies:

    "...the US shouldn’t be having that kind of relationship with an Israel that is doing the things you’re outlining." ([49:45])

  • Describes J Street as fighting for “a different future” and advocates for a “23-state solution”—comprehensive regional peace.

9. Is Change Possible? Leadership, Precedent & Vision

• Historical Precedent for Change ([53:36-56:18])
  • Ben-Ami notes Menachem Begin’s unexpected turn toward peace with Egypt as proof radical change is possible, given the right incentives and leadership.

10. J Street’s Theory of Change and Place in American Politics

• Why a ‘Pro-Israel’ PAC in America Today? ([58:20-63:37])
  • Pressed by Krystal and Ryan whether a pro-Israel PAC is the moral equivalent of pro-apartheid advocacy, Ben-Ami contends:

    "...why do I do it here? I’m an American...we in this country are responsible for our foreign policy, right?...We are misrepresented by the mainstream organizations of the American Jewish community that lobby for things that are not, in the long run, good for Israel, that are interfering in American politics in ways that are bad for American democracy..." ([59:01])

  • Admits deep moral distress and acknowledges the competing priorities and emotional cost of advocating for Israel given present realities.

11. Is the Liberal Zionist Vision Harmful or Hopeful?

• The “True Communism” Analogy ([63:37-66:34])
  • Ryan asks if clinging to the idealistic vision of Israel is now actively harmful.
  • Ben-Ami: Only if it evades the truth of what’s happening; “I do not spare any words...in terms of describing just how awful these people are and what they’re doing.” Still, he refuses to give up on the possibility of an ethical, peaceful Jewish homeland.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Israeli leadership:

  • “...we’re dealing with a prime minister...who have perverted the idea of what it should be to have a national homeland of the Jewish people.”
    — Jeremy Ben-Ami ([06:24])

• On shifting public opinion:

  • “If the only thing that you’re allowed to do is whatever it is the dear leader in the majority [wants], that is just a very quick road to hell.”
    — Jeremy Ben-Ami ([08:35])

• On ending U.S. aid:

  • “We have provided a blank check to Israel throughout the entirety of the US-Israel relationship.”
    — Jeremy Ben-Ami ([13:05])

• On the two-state solution:

  • “The only way for Israel to be both Jewish and democratic...is for there to be a division of the land.”
    — Jeremy Ben-Ami ([30:06])

• On “pro-Israel” activism:

  • “I am pro-Israel, but I’m anti-occupation. I am anti-the moral abomination of what happened in Gaza.”
    — Jeremy Ben-Ami ([59:01])

• On the pain of advocacy:

  • “This is very, very painful. But I think it’s very important...no one’s giving up on the vision of what an America can and should be...I won’t give up on the idea...”
    — Jeremy Ben-Ami ([64:27])

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• J Street & Jeremy Ben-Ami Intro: [02:27–05:57]
• Israeli Government Critique: [06:24–07:31]
• Democratic Will/Israeli Public Opinion: [07:38–10:30]
• Evolution on U.S. Military Aid: [10:30–14:04]
• J Street’s Shifting Role (Dem Base): [14:04–18:43]
• Sanctions/Boycott Discussion: [18:43–20:53]
• Two-State Solution Debate: [20:53–24:41]
• Liberal Zionism Contradictions: [26:44–32:51]
• On Arms Sales/Defensive Weapons: [35:14–44:35]
• The U.S.-Israel Alliance: [47:41–52:33]
• Possibility of Change: [53:36–56:18]
• Theory of Change & Moral Questions: [58:20–63:37]
• Final Reflections on Vision/Hope: [63:37–66:34]

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Tone & Atmosphere

• Highly engaged and direct, with respectful but challenging exchanges.
• Both interviewers push Ben-Ami on the moral and practical contradictions of "liberal Zionism" in 2026.
• Ben-Ami remains earnest, passionate, and often pained, wrestling with the crisis in Israel and his own beliefs.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rare, unfiltered look at the crisis of liberal Zionism after Gaza, as told by one of its leading American advocates. The dialogue explores the moral, political, and existential challenges facing J Street and questions the ongoing value and possibility of “pro-Israel, pro-peace” advocacy as facts on the ground and public opinion—both in Israel and the U.S.—shift sharply. Both guests and hosts offer frank, sometimes uncomfortable, but ultimately vital contributions to a critical debate on the future of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, U.S. foreign policy, and the soul of Jewish American political engagement.

Transcript

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[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

What I like about this show is that we have an audience of kind of Washington insiders that watches it pretty religiously, but we also have a ton of people outside of Washington who just kind of want the news but are interested in politics. And so I think the guest that we have today is somebody who kind of everybody in Washington is very familiar with, Jeremy Ben Ami, who's the executive director of J Street, but for people outside of Washington, probably not that familiar. So we wanted to have him on to talk about J Street's kind of place in the political firmament now, because this was an organization that was founded in 2008 as both pro Israel and pro peace. And right after it was launched, Netanyahu invades Gaza again. They came out hard against that invasion, and there was a massive amount of pushback. But it also, its mission at the time was to create space for Democrats to say, I don't think that Netanyahu should be. It actually wasn't. NETANYAHU actually, in 2008 was. It doesn't matter. I don't think Israel should be attacking Gaza at this moment without being called Israel haters or anti Semitic. It created this space for them. And Jeremy was kind of a perfect person to be able to do that because of a lot of different things. But one of them is his crazy family story. Maybe we can talk a little bit about that with him. But his great grandfather or great great grandfather left Russia under persecution in 1882.

[Interviewer Crystal]

Wow.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

Comes to what was then Palestine, Mandatory Palestine. And we can put up EX1, I think it is. His family's part of this iconic 1909 picture of an auction. They're auctioning off the land that becomes Tel Aviv. His father, according to family lore, born in 1911, then becomes the first baby born in Tel Aviv. His father then goes on to join Irgun, which is this paramilitary terror organization that helps to found Israel. Afterwards, they move back to the United States or move to the United States. Jeremy is born in the United States, so that's the family legacy that he's got. And despite all of that, last week, or maybe the week before, the Israeli ambassador to Washington called J Street a cancer on the Jewish community and basically

[Interviewer Crystal]

called Jeremy and Bernie Sanders fake Jews.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

Fake Jews.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Yes.

[Interviewer Crystal]

Yes.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

And so Jeremy Benamee, executive director of J Street, is joining us today. Jeremy, thanks so much for being here. Did I get any of the family lore wrong?

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

That is the best intro that I've ever had on any show, Ryan. The funny thing, though, I will keep on the background. I'll tell you a really funny story, which is that picture that you showed, right? It's about 60 families standing on the beach wearing their Eastern European finest Clothing in the heat. Right. And there's a reunion a hundred years later in Tel Aviv of the descendants of those families. And it's really sort of neat. There were 2,000 people, and under every flag for the name of a family, the families gathered. We had a big reunion. And I make the rounds to the different families. And it turns out that every single family thinks that their grandparent was the first kid born in Tel Aviv. You know, so, like, every family has this lore that turns out, you know, it couldn't possibly be true, but he was among the first kids born.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

Yeah, I think the Jewish population in 1911 of Palestine at the time was between 5 and 10%. So there's not that many families there at the time. So this is like the heart of the birth of Israel. So what was it like to be called by the Israeli ambassador a cancer just recently? And what's like, why do you think they said that? And what's your response to it?

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Well, look, I mean, we're dealing with this ambassador. We're dealing with a prime minister. We're dealing with the government in Israel that is made up of the most loathsome people who have perverted the idea of what it should be to have a national homeland of the Jewish people. They have perverted the ideals of the country. They have perverted Jewish identity. As you said, they, you know, attack Reform and Conservative Jews as dogs. I mean, literally, that happened in the Knesset last week. You know, so this is so much more about these people than it is about me, than it is about J Street. You know, the type of person that I represent in this country is really the mainstream of American Judaism. Right? Not Orthodox, not highly religious, connected to Israel, but really critical of Netanyahu. Doesn't think this government is representing at all what it means to put Jewish ideals into practice. So the problem isn't J Street. The problem is a government that would send a man as a diplomat to Washington, D.C. who calls the Jewish critics of the state of Israel cancer. That's the problem.

[Interviewer Crystal]

Cancer. And as I said before, effectively accused you and Bernie Sanders of being fake Jews for disagreeing.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

The sponsor is not a Jew, said

[Interviewer Crystal]

some of the actors, the Israeli ambassador, the Israeli government. They did make a point, though, that I wanted to ask you about, which is, you know, they said you're actually not respecting the democratic will of the Israeli people. And, you know, Netanyahu, he's not a one off. He's been prime minister there for how many or what, like 18 out of the last 19 years or something like that or 16 out of the last 17. If you look at polling of Israelis on Gaza, on Iran, you have a, you know, large majority of Israeli Jews who say, yes, we're down with complete ethnic cleansing. You have a majority who say that we should actually, we're good with killing every single man, woman and child within Gaza. You have a majority that's in favor of expelling even the Palestinians who are living within Israel. So it doesn't seem to me like Netanyahu is an outlier in Israel at this point. It seems like he is reflective of the population there. And you know what they want to see.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Well, there's huge problems with where Israeli public opinion is today, without question. And J Street organizationally, and I personally obviously disagree, you know, vehemently with some of the things that the majority of Israeli Jews at this moment would say to a pollster they believe in. But the idea that somehow you don't have the legitimacy and you're not allowed to argue with majority opinion, I mean, that is just a very quick road to hell, right? I mean, if the only thing that you're allowed to do is whatever it is the dear leader in the majority,

[Interviewer Crystal]

I'm just pushing back on the idea that it's like Netanyahu in this government. That's solely the problem given where public opinion is and how mainstream that sentiment is at this point.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Oh, it's much more nuanced than that. I mean, I do believe that there will be a different government of Israel after the elections that are coming up this fall. 75% of Israelis disapprove of Bibi Netanyahu as prime minister. So, you know, you know, you're going to see him unable to form a next government. The question is, will the opposition be able to come together because they are left, right and center, Arab, Jewish, I mean, they're all over the map. And will they be able to form an alternative government? Because it's a crazy parliamentary system. But I believe there will be a different government. I believe that government will reverse some of the really worst things that this government is doing. But this new government, even if it is led by somebody from the center right instead of the extreme right, is gonna be nowhere near a J Street position. And we're still gonna have arguments with the Israeli government over occupation, over settlements, over treatment of Palestinians, over human rights. All of these things that are core to the center of American Jewish opinion will not be central to Israeli Jewish opinion until there's really a change in leadership that takes us way to the other end of the spectrum.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

Last month, you guys came out in favor of ending American subsidies for weapons to Israel. Both, quote, unquote offensive and quote unquote defensive. For many, many years of J Street's history, even conditioning aid was kind of. There was a big internal fight. And I don't know when you first came around to the position of aid ought to be conditioned. You tell me when that was. What happened internally or what happened personally or politically that got you from that point where you were pushing back hard against even conditioning aid to a place where now we shouldn't have any subsidies for weapons for Israel.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

So J Street is inherently a political organization, right? We are going to try to move the center of the political debate. Um, we're not going to be the folks pulling at the edge of the Overton window. That that's not our role. And I think, you know, we can talk about how change works on a whole variety of issues, but there's always people who play a little bit more of an inside game and a little bit more of an outside game. And we're definitely. We are a D.C. lobby, right? And we're going to try to build support for the things that we stand for. In the late 2010s already at, in our 2019 presidential candidate forum at our national convention, it was the fall of 2019, we had the Pod Save the World guys on our stage questioning the Democratic candidates for president about their willingness to start imposing restrictions on aid to Israel. So we have made it our a point over the course of our entire existence to try to push the envelope on these debates and the discussion of restrictions on arms in the 2019, 2020 window, that was a first within the Democratic Party. We were, you know, we were pushing the envelope there. And then over time, we got to start to have, let's say, you know, in the course of the Gaza war, discussions that began to be not about restrictions, but about conditioning aid and backing for the joint resolutions of disapproval, which really get the ire of the Israeli ambassador against Senator Sanders, supporting Senator Van Hollen as he tried to insist that critical elements of the Foreign Assistance act and the Arms Export Control act and the Leahy act, they need to be enforced against Israel. Because we have provided a blank check to Israel throughout the entirety of the US Israel relationship, and to no one else in the world do we provide a blank check. The other thing that we do is we provide diplomatic immunity. We say to Israel, no matter what you do, even if you're violating international law and some international body wants to then censor you Based on the international law, we will, you know, veto it at the UN Security Council or we will defund UNESCO, you know, or we will do anything we can to provide diplomatic immunity. So for, you know, the entirety of J Street's existence, pretty much, we have said there shouldn't be a blank check and there shouldn't be diplomatic immunity. The specifics have changed as the debate has evolved over these last 20 years. And we got to the point now where we can firmly say Israel should just be treated like every other country. It's a wealthy first world country. It doesn't need our taxpayer subsidies. It's time to end that and it's time to enforce our laws. That's the position that we take, and it's a natural evolution of everything we've stood for.

[Interviewer Crystal]

Jeremy, one of the reasons I really wanted to meet you and get your thoughts is because it seems to me from the outside that actually J Street's sort of position in the political firmament has shifted post October 7th. And I'll tell you what I mean by that. To your point, I do think J Street has kind of pushed the envelope and created a lot of space for Democrats to have some critique of the Israeli government. And I say this as someone I ran for Congress unsuccessfully back in 2010, but J Street was important for me as someone who was coming relatively fresh to understanding Israel and Palestine, looking at those positions and saying, oh, okay, this is a more moral lens that I can use to view this conflict as I'm figuring out who I am and where I am politically on this issue. Ryan, of course, has written a profile of you a number of years back where he got a great quote from Ben Rhodes about the impact of J Street and helping to get the Iran deal passed, which I do not think would have passed successfully under the Obama administration without J Street's aid and assistance. We can put this is EX2 up on the screen. Ben Rhodes said that J Street was one of the most effective organizations that supported the Iran deal because they had a large grassroots network, growing clout on the Hill. In addition to their advocacy, their membership also stepped up to help several members of Congress who lost AIPAC support because of the deal. So I think politically very important there and as you said, have been sort of pushing the envelope in what is acceptable in the Overton window with regard to critique of Israel. You also, I know, defended Ryan from baseless charges of anti Semitism at one point. But now we're at a point where the Democratic base has really shifted and sort of across the board, whether you're a centrist, whether you're a moderate, whether you're Jew, whether you're a Christian, you have an overwhelming majority that say this is a genocide. You have an overwhelming majority that say not only should we not be providing aid, we shouldn't be selling these weapons at all. In fact, we think we should be sanctioning Israel. So now it seems that J Street's position vis a vis the democratic base has become more aligned with the status quo on Israel than with pushing the vanguard. And I wonder, you know, first of all, feel free to dispute any characterization of that, but I am curious how you're viewing that shift in the democratic base and what it means in terms of J Street's positioning in the political firmament.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Well, I do think you're laying out exactly the dynamics that have evolved over these last three years with the war in Gaza in particular. And I think the level of anger at the Israeli government, at the IDF over what was done in Gaza, the anger at what is being allowed, if not encouraged on the west bank, the push by Netanyahu to get us into this awful war, and then what's happening in Lebanon, I mean, the anger is understandable. And it is going to be, as with most anger, focused mainly on how do we demonstrate our anger and how do we punish those who are doing things we don't like done. I think where J Street is going to probably just take a different path is at the end of the day, our interest in all of this is in building a better future, right? We want to focus on solutions, not on sort of how do we demonstrate our anger. And the only way out of this war, this ongoing hundred year conflict between Palestinians and Jews, is a political resolution of their underlying conflict. And so J Street's always going to center that. We're going to center how do we get these two peoples to stop killing each other? What is the way out of this? Because the 7 million Palestinians who live between the river and the sea aren't going anywhere. In the 7 million plus Jews who live between the river and the sea aren't going anywhere. They're going to have to figure out a way to live together. We can discuss whether or not there's any hope of there ever being sort of one democratic state with equal rights for all. I don't see that as a realistic possibility. Others like, you know, Peter Beinart and others in my world think that that's the way out. But I still believe that there's going to have to be a border drawn between A state that is a state for the Palestinian people, a state of Palestine, and a state that is the state of Israel that provides a national home for the Jewish people. So we will be focused, I think, as J Street, a little less on the sanctions and boycotts and divest and punishing to build the pressure on Israel and more on how can we lay out a pathway to actually resolve this underlying conflict so that both peoples can start to have a future their kids can live for rather than die for. And that's the tragedy of this conflict.

[Interviewer Crystal]

But isn't that pressure exactly what's needed to come to some sort of an actual resolution? I mean, we have the model of South Africa. South Africa was also an ally. It was very uncomfortable. Reagan resisted for a long time applying sanctions because of their apartheid regime. But ultimately the sanctions and the boycotts are part of what helped to create that international pressure that forced South Africa to change. And Israel is also an apartheid state, but, you know, further than South Africa committing genocide, committing ethnic cleansing. So shouldn't we apply international law and also use that pressure to help force a resolution, you know, so that both peoples can live peaceably and the region can be a lot more settled?

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Well, I do think, you know, part of bringing about change, I said this a little bit earlier, is there are going to be an array of different actors working in sync to try to bring about a better future. And J Street doesn't necessarily have to do the exact same things that other people working in this space do. And, you know, we. Because we have family and friends and the deep tie to the state and the people of Israel, for J Street types, it's going to be a little bit harder to get on board with allies and engage in all the same tactics with people who don't have that level of connection. You know, we just are going to come at this differently. It doesn't. We will, for instance, defend in court and in legislators and in legislatures the right of people to boycott. Right. We do not want to see laws passed that inhibit people's First Amendment right to engage in economic boycotts against Israel. But we're not going to necessarily support those boycotts. So we'll be in a lane next to these folks and we will be applying pressure, and we will be. A lot of it's going to be from within the Jewish community, and some of it is sort of moral pressure and the pressure of our leaders of our community. But it doesn't mean that we all have to do the exact same tactics. And I don't have any, you know, disregard for the people who are pursuing other things. And I want to make sure that their First Amendment rights to do those things are protected. But jstry may not do all of those things.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

And a lot of people who follow this issue closely will argue now that because of the settlement activity that has taken place, a two state solution here is just simply impractical anymore. And what has to then be the focus is civil rights and dignity and voting rights and democracy for everybody. Who's there? Zoran Mamdani famously had this debate exchange. I'm curious how you reacted like when you saw that and what your thoughts are on this. Let's roll ex 5. For people who forget this debate moment,

[Interviewer Crystal]

Mr. Mamdani, can I just jump in? Would you visit Israel as mayor?

[Zoran Mamdani]

I will be doing, as the mayor, I'll be standing up for Jewish New Yorkers and I'll be meeting them wherever they are across the five boroughs, whether that's in their synagogues and temples or at their homes or at the subway platform, because ultimately we need to focus on delivering on their concerns.

[Interviewer Crystal]

And yes or no, do you believe in a Jewish state of Israel?

[Zoran Mamdani]

I believe Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, as a state with equal rights.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

He won't say it has a right to exist as a Jewish state. Be very.

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And his answer was no, he won't visit Israel.

[Zoran Mamdani]

I said that.

[Lowe's Advertiser]

That's what he was trying to say.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

No, no, no. Unlike you, I answered.

[Zoran Mamdani]

Unlike you, I answered no very directly. I want to be very clear. I believe every state should be a state of equal rights.

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Okay. Thank you, Ms. Madonna.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

Mr. Blake, so what's your reaction to the position that Israel should exist as a state with equal rights for all?

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Well, I definitely think Israel should exist as a state with equal rights for all. I just also think there needs to be a state of Palestine next to it. You know, right now, the state of Israel within the Green line has about 10 million people who are citizens of Israel. There are 5 million Palestinians who live in the area that have no rights as citizens. And that's the occupation. This is the problem. And that needs to be resolved. But within Israel proper, there are 21% of Israeli citizens who are Arabs. They do have the right to vote. They do have equal rights under the law in most cases. There is a lot wrong with Israeli democracy, much as there was a lot wrong with American democracy over our 250 years. That means that certain minority populations here have been fighting for their rights for the entirety of the existence of our country. And that fight will continue in Israel. But the State of Israel should treat all of its citizens, including the Palestinian citizens of Israel, 100% equally under the law. I would argue that the State of Israel should never use the word Jewish as the adjective defining the word state. Jewish, for me, is a peoplehood. There are 25% of Jews who practice no religion. They are culturally and ethnically Jewish and have traditional families that they draw on with Jewish background, but they're not religiously Jewish. When Israel is called a Jewish state, it implies no separation between religion and state. And that's one of the biggest problems that Jewish Israelis feel about their own state. They want a constitution. One of the things a new government may really try to do for the first time in 78 years is actually write a constitution that would cement that everybody who is a citizen of Israel would have equal rights, regardless of their religion, race, gender, et cetera. But there needs to be a State of Palestine where the Palestinian people have the exact same right to create a state that is the national homeland of the Palestinian people and we're all Palestinians all over the world. Millions and millions of can return home to the State of Palestine as of right, just as Jews all around the world can return to the State of Israel as of right. And the only way that this gets resolved is if each of the two peoples have the exact same set of rights. But I would say they need to be nationally handled in states next to each other, not in the same state.

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[Interviewer Crystal]

Jeremy, let me let's dig into that a little bit more and what you mean when you say that you support a Jewish homeland because this really gets to the rub of why, in my view, it's very dissonant to hear the term liberal Zionists because liberal would indicate you support equal rights for all. You support civil rights, equality, human rights, et cetera. And the expression of a Jewish homeland or a Jewish state is a sort of ethno supremacist expression where the moment that there are too many Palestinians, you have a demographic problem because we can't possibly have a Palestinian or a Muslim or an Arab majority here because that will destroy a whole state. And so what I, I'm wondering how you square the circle of being, you know, a progressive who does support equality on, you know, matters here domestically, but also supports this ethno supremacist state of Israel.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

So the word that I, I try to push back on would be ethnosuppremacist. You know, the concept of Israel when it was founded was to be a place where Jews around the world who had been living stateless for 1800 years and it suffered through, you know, whether it was the pogroms in Russia or the Inquisition in Spain or the Holocaust in Germany, I mean, just a litany of a history. The idea that there should be one place on the planet where the Jewish people can claim citizenship because of who they are. That is what the state of Israel was founded on. The people who founded the State of Israel, of course, were by and large socialist right. And it was a very left of center place. And the ideals of socialism and the ideals of creating a Jewish home coexisted in the state. And it was, you know, really the dominant ideology. It is not per se that right wing ethno nationalists like Bibi Netanyahu, Itamar Benvir Bezalos Motrich, the ambassador here in the us, Yahyal Lighter. It is not a given that that is the kind of people that will govern the state of Israel. And so I do believe.

[Interviewer Crystal]

But doesn't that become a sort of inevitability once the core of your project is we must maintain a Jewish majority? You know, I mean, Israel de facto has control over, you know, from the river to the sea, as you would say, over the West Bank. I mean, if you live, if you're Palestinian living in the west bank, your day to day life is structured by what Israel, the Israeli government is going to allow you to do and what it's not. Israel has taken over 60% of the Gaza Strip and Netanyahu is threatening to take over the rest of it. And once again, if you live in the Gaza Strip, even in that part that hasn't been taken over, your day to day life is structured by what the Israeli government says you can do and where you can go and how you can live. So there is de facto control from the river to the sea. But the suppression and the apartheid and the demographic engineering that occurs through mass murder and ethnic cleansing is necessitated by the idea that we must have a Jewish majority. And so doesn't it end up being inevitable that you have this sort of genocidal right wing ethnic supremacist government, if that's the core ideal at the center of the state?

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

I don't, I don't agree. You know, we probably just won't see eye to eye on that. The problem for Israel is that if it insists on keeping all the land, which the right wing is insisting right to be from the river to the sea and to annex and take over all of the land, then you have 15 million people that live in that land and a little bit less than half of them are Jewish. So you actually cause a bigger problem for those who want to have a national homeland of the Jewish people. If you keep all the land, the only way actually for there to Be a state that is Jewish in nature and democratic and provides rights to all of its citizens, and to have Palestinian people have their rights is for there to be a division of the land, for there to be some of that land. And the numbers are 7822 is the split between Israel and Palestine that's been, you know, on the table since 1967. That's the only way for Israel to be both Jewish and democratic. Because if the state of Palestine provides the self determination and the national rights and the individual rights and the future, and the Hope for the 5 million Palestinians who live in Gaza and the West bank and 2 million Palestinians who are citizens of Israel out of a population of 10 million, are given full and equal rights like any minority in a democracy. This actually is a resolvable problem. It is not by definition that having a national homeland of the Jewish people. There are so many countries around the world that have a national identity. A people who feel strongly as a people that gives their country a national identity doesn't make them all ethno nationalist states.

[Interviewer Crystal]

Sure, but what in your view would happen? Let's say we get the two state solution, right, and there's a division of the land, as you know, as laid out by the un what happens if the Palestinian citizens of Israel start having too many kids and now they're threatening to become a demographic majority within Israel? You know what happens?

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Well, I think the biggest problem, ironically, the biggest problem that Israel has demographically is that the ultra Orthodox are having too many.

[Interviewer Crystal]

Yes, yeah, that's true. No, that is an issue. But I mean that here, because I suspect, you know, we have a big Christian nationalist movement in this country led by Pete Hegseth and others who are in government right now. And I suspect you don't support that. So how do you support, you know, a Jewish nationalist ideology when you would oppose that here, you know, domestically, because you understand the way that that would infringe on the rights of others who didn't meet the definition here in the

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

U.S. well, if that is the way that it's going to be implemented, I'd oppose it. But what I'm arguing, and we may not agree, but I believe you know, that the Declaration of Independence of the State of Israel and the values on which it was found and the basic laws that were established, the idea of it was that all 10 million Israeli citizens, whether they are Christian, Muslim, Druze, Jewish, Russian immigrants, Circassian, whoever they are, that they all have equal rights. It is the demographic fact that 75, 76% of the citizens of the State of Israel right now are Jewish. And the other 25%, 21% are Arab. 4% are various other ethnic groups. This is the way other countries work, too. I mean, you know, you can run through a list of the 193 countries in that are member states of the UN and many of them have a population that has a ethnic identity that is 75, 80%, and at the same time have 20, 25, 30% of other peoples who live within their land. And some states do better than others at providing those people with rights. And I would fight and be at the front line to ensure that the Arab citizens of Israel, the Palestinian citizens of Israel, have the exact same rights and the same opportunities as the Jewish citizens. And so I don't agree with that. Having a state that has an ethnic identity as its identity is by per se, going to lead you to Itamar Ben Gvir and Betzala Smotrich. In fact, you know, 90% of Israeli Jews vehemently oppose Bensella Smotrich and Itamar Benvir. And As I said, 75% oppose Netanyahu. And when they tried to take apart Israel's democracy and the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary, millions and millions of Israelis took to the streets in order to ensure that the functioning liberal democracy that they were brought up in would be maintained. So, you know, I'm willing to fight for that. I'm willing to continue to be out there making the case that is a possibility. And I hope that the state of Palestine that's created next to Israel will also set up a structure that provides opportunity for all of its people to have equal rights and protect those rights and has the rule of law, independent judiciary, et cetera.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

And so to pick up on a point that Crystal was making about putting pressure on Israel on, I would make two points here. One, on a moral level, you know, you have, you have said that you think that, you know, legal, legal analysts will, will in the future conclude, or have already reasonably concluded that Israel is carrying out a genocide in Gaza. So to me, on a moral level, a country that is doing that needs to be sanctioned by a country if it has a moral, if it has any moral compass left. But just practically speaking, pragmatically, over the last several decades, if you had an Israeli politician going to the public in an election year saying, we need to pursue coexistence with Palestinians and we need to make compromises to reach a deal, we need to respect the dignity of all the people who live Here. And you had a different politician who was saying, no, we don't, because the United States is going to back us to the hilt militarily and diplomatically. And what we need to do is smash them. We need to do ethnic cleansing. We need to pursue a project that expands the territory under our control. Each time the person arguing, no, we don't have to make compromises is validated by the United States unwillingness to, to create any consequences for any Israeli action, even if it's killing Christian, Palestinian, American citizen journalists, for instance. And so each time the country lurches further to the right. So just pragmatically, it feels like if there were any politicians left saying, we need to make some compromises for coexistence because, oh, look, they've figured out these drones and like, maybe we can't just occupy and destroy Lebanon forever. Those politicians are undercut by America's, you know, endless willingness to tolerate that. That activity and actually to support it. So just from a pragmatic perspective, why not sanction Israel?

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Well, I do think that we agree 100% on this, actually. It is absolutely true that one of the reasons why Israel has done what it's done and been able to do what it's done is because of the broken American policy and the broken American political system. And it does bring us back, you know, to American politics. And one of the reasons why these laws are in effect the way they are and one of the reasons they are not enforced has been because of the political pressures that groups like AIPAC and others from within, not only the Jewish community, but I would also argue the Christians United for Israel, the evangelical community, the political pressures that are putting on federal legislators and ultimately on presidents to adopt an Israel right or wrong policy. And so the politics have been broken, the policy has been broken, and it's led to the horrors that we see on the ground, not only in Gaza and the west bank, but Lebanon and beyond.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

So just to be clear, so you do support at this point, an arms embargo on Israel.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

We support ending financial assistance, phasing out the billions of dollars a year rapidly. Right. To end that. Our taxpayer dollars shouldn't be subsidizing this.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

You also said we shouldn't even be selling them weapons if they're breaking American law.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Right, Exactly.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

They are breaking American law.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Right. But that is selling them weapons under the exact same rules that you sell them to everybody else. Right. If another country is buying the weapons and they're violating our laws, we shouldn't sell those weapons. And it's the same for Israel. Israel should have no exception. There should be no longer exceptional treatment of the state of Israel under American law. But that's not a complete arms embargo. I mean, I will say that that's a. Those are two different things. And if there is behavior that Israel's

[Interviewer Crystal]

engaged in, how are they different things? So if you were, just to be totally clear, if you were in government right now, today, given that Israel has been deemed to be committing genocide, given the ethnic cleansing that's happening now in Lebanon, given the policies in the west bank, given, you would not sell, you would not greenlight selling any weapons, offensive or defensive, to Israel today.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

The distinction that I would draw is. I would draw a distinction for defensive systems. And that's based on the argument that obviously, you know, well, that's, you know, surging all around us. I believe that fewer people will die if Israel has the missile defense systems to prevent Hezbollah or Hamas or other Houthi rockets, Iranian rockets, from hitting Israeli civilians. I think that everybody will face an even deeper cycle of violence if those kinds of rockets get through. So I personally and I would urge for government policy to be. To continue to sell missile defense systems, Iron Dome being one of several systems, but offensive weapons. As long as Israel is violating the ceasefire, as long as it is violating our laws, as long as it's violating international laws, for now and until such time as it's not violating all of those things, the United States should withhold, and that's why we supported the joint resolutions of disapproval, should withhold offensive weapons from Israel while it is violating American law and international law.

[Interviewer Crystal]

So I would view it quite the contrary in terms of. You said that the defensive weapons, if they didn't, we didn't sell those. That would deepen the cycle of violence. First of all, it's hard to imagine a deeper cycle of violence than what we're in right now. But currently we're in the Iran war, which Israel certainly wanted. Trump's a big boy. He made his own decisions here. But Israel obviously was influential in making the case that we should get ourselves into this disastrous war. There have been talks going on, some level of negotiations that are occurring that appear to be bearing some fruit. How close they are or not is anybody's guess. But it's very clear that Israel right now is trying to undercut any even theoretical possibility of a resolution by escalating their bombing in Lebanon. And I would submit to you that the reason that they're able to not only bomb Lebanon, not only commit genocide in Gaza, They've bombed seven of their neighbors over the past several years is because they feel that they are immune. And part of that immunity from any sort of real repercussions is the Iron Domes is that defensive capability and also our government's complicity and willingness to carry water for them all the time. So in my view, those defensive weapons, quote, unquote, defensive weapons have been instrumental in allowing Israel to operate in this, you know, in this rogue manner and to, you know, which has grave implications for the globe. It certainly has grave implications for our own foreign policy.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Yeah, I mean, you and I probably just won't agree on this, but that's fine. I mean, I think, you know, that it's important that there be, you know, gradation of different opinions on this. We're sort of aligned behind the notion that there has to be a change in the US Israel relationship and that the blank check has to end and there has to be pressure placed and we need to change Israel policy, and the US can't be complicit in what's going on anymore. So we agree on, you know, a lot of it, what we don't agree on. And. And, you know, I just will maintain this to the end. You know, I. I believe that it is a very high purpose to ensure that randomly fired Houthi, Hezbollah, Hamas, you know, militia rockets coming out of Syria or Iraq and even Iranian missiles to prevent them from hitting civilians and killing more people is something of value. And if some of these rockets got through, you say it couldn't get worse. I think it could get worse. And I hate to say that, but, you know, the level of destruction is, you know, here. But I tell you, they could go here. And I think it has at least somewhat held back the cycle of violence from going to the absolute seventh circle of hell.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

What if we grant that protecting civilians is actually, you know, should actually be a priority for the United States? Far more civilians have been killed in Lebanon, Yemen, and in the occupied Palestinian territories. Should we sell defensive weapons there?

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Well, I also think one thing to bear in mind when it comes, something that gets lost in the Iron Dome debate, is that Israel developed Iron Dome, and then the United States entered into a contract with Israel, and they said, you know, if you produce the systems, then we'll produce the interceptors here on American soil. And Israel agreed to that. So it's a slightly different situation. I just want, you know, this gets into the weeds of all of this, but we are not developing weapon systems with Al Qaeda or with ISIS or with, you know, the Hamas or the Houthis.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

Houthis have some pretty good rocket scientists, clearly.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Right. Clearly. As do many of these.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

Maybe we should be.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

But you know, I do think that these are two apples and oranges. And I do think the United States should be working with the Lebanese government and providing it with capacity to take on Hezbollah. And I think that the United States should be with its allies working to develop the international stabilization force that ultimately will bring a little bit more security into Gaza and transition over to a Palestinian led force. And the United States should be supporting Palestine and Palestinians and Palestinian Authority security forces. You know, we trained the Palestinian Authority security forces, the United States. And so I do think there's an American role if we really want to bring security and stability to the region, to help the new government of Syria, to help the new government in Lebanon, to help the government of Palestine so that it can establish some stability and security for its people and for the region.

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[Interviewer Crystal]

just to drill down and this really gets to kind of like the rub of things. Israel gets treated differently because Israel is an ally, right? That's the reason we won't sell defensive weapons or really do anything to protect Palestinians or Iranian civilians as we're bombing their little girls schools or Lebanese civilians. You know, Israel is this key ally which as you pointed out through AIPAC and also through your own group, has, you know, influenced within the United States government quite a lot of influence, it seems at times. And I guess one of the questions that I think the American people are asking, I'm asking is what are we getting out of this relationship? I view this more through a moral lens. I think Israel's committing a genocide. I think Israel is an apartheid state. I think it should be sanctioned the way South Africa was. I think that level of pressure should be applied to compel moral behavior. I think we should have international law. I think our willingness to observe the, you know, and support the barbarism of Israel and Gaza has effectively destroyed international law globally and has created a law of the jungle. So I view it through a more moral lens. But for my sort of realist friends out there who look at this just from a cost benefit perspective, what do we get out of Israel being this key ally? Why should we have PACs like J Street in the US that describe themselves as being quote, unquote, pro Israel, Given the fact that, you know, Israel has helped persuade the President to enter into this disastrous war. Given the fact that Israel has helped to destroy international law, which is something that I think we should all care about if we want to live in a stable globe. Given the fact Israel is routinely considered by our own intel agencies to be one of the greatest surveillance threats against American citizens. So why are we holding so tight to this alliance with an actor that is not only immoral but has helped to foment a massive strategic disaster for the United States of America and the globe?

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Well, I think that what you're hearing me say is that the US shouldn't be having that kind of a relationship with an Israel that is doing the things that you're outlining. You know, that this Israel under Benjamin Netanyahu, the things that it has done over these last 20 years, by and large, they have hurt American national interests. So that you, you won't get an argument that under this government and in the direction that Israel has traveled over these recent decades, that this is a positive, but it can and it should be. You know, what we want to see is a Middle east that ends these conflicts, right? That provides Palestinians with an actual route to self determination, that begins to tap into the incredible opportunity that Israel provides to the region to be a technological and economic engine of growth. And that vision, we call it a 23 state solution. Because when you say two state solution at this point, people's eyes glaze over. But the issue is, can Israel become a functioning member of the region and work with all of its neighbors? There are 22 Arab states in the Arab League and one of them is Palestine. So let's, let's actually form a 23 state peace agreement, a comprehensive regional agreement that agrees on borders, that agrees on rights, that agrees on, you know, things like how to resolve the refugee issue, how to deal with religious freedom for all religions. These are the things that Israel can and should be a part of. That's the type of Israel that can be an asset. The type of Israel under Netanyahu, Benvir and Smotrich, that does what it did in Gaza, that is burning down the west bank, that is fomenting religious warfare, whether it's on the Temple Mount or other religious sites, that's convincing Donald Trump to go to war. That is not an asset to the United States. But it can be. And when I'm pro Israel, when I say J Street is pro Israel, we're advocating for a different future. You know, we are doing this because what is happening today is so negative, but it doesn't have to be. And we want to return to some of the original concept of what the country was. You showed the, you know, picture of my grandparents and we talked about my dad and we talked about the founding of the country. This is not the Israel that those people had in mind. You know, and by fighting for it to try to change the direction, that's what we mean by pro Israel. We have nothing to do with being in favor of what this government is doing and nothing to say positive about what it has done over the past 20 years that J Street's been around.

[Interviewer Crystal]

It just seems to me to require a sort of suspension of reality to imagine the Israel that you're talking about. For example, you've said, you know, you expect there'll be a new government in place that isn't as extreme as this government. But Naftali Benit, I mean, the critique he's had of Netanyahu with regard to the Iran war is that he wasn't brutal enough. He's made plenty of his own racist, incendiary comments, whether it's with regard to Gaza or with regard to Arabs more broadly. So if that's the moderate in Israel, it's just very hard to imagine without applying the kind of pressure like we applied in the globe applied to South Africa, and without using international sanctions and compelling different behavior. If you're relying on the democratic vote of Israeli Jews, 82% of whom support the expulsion of residents of the Gaza Strip entirely, we're nowhere close to the universe that you would like to see.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

I don't necessarily agree. It is also a fact that for instance, in 1977, Menachem Begin came to power in Israel. He was the leader of the terrorist group that my father was a part of called the Irgun, right? And he was about as far right as anybody had ever been in Israeli politics. And he came to power four years after the Yom Kippur War. And Israel in 1967 had seized the Sinai. And then they fought another war in 73 over it. And so he comes to war to power in 77 and everybody says, oh my God, you know, this is not the person who can make peace with Egypt. And he specifically said, I will never under any circumstances give back the Sinai. And 80% of Israeli Jews agreed with him. Don't give back the Sinai. Because We've just fought four wars in 30 years against Egypt that keeps invading us through the Sinai. And then, you know, two years later he's sitting on the South Lawn of the White House signing the peace deal with Egypt. And you know, sometimes this sort of Nixon to China moment happens in history. I don't think history is preordained and pre written. It is in Israel's long term interests. And this is the case that Jason will continue to make. You know, as long as we are around, we will make the case that Israel can only have a future that is worth it for the Jewish people if it is compromises and allows there to be a Palestinian state. And what it gets out of that is normalization of its relations with Saudi Arabia and the whole Gulf and the extension of the normalization of Israel as A country in the region. That's what Israelis can get for this. And that can shift that 82% opposition quickly. And it needs political leadership. And I will fight for it. I believe it's possible. I know there are examples in history of this happening, and that's why we do the work that we do.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

If we could put up EX7, I wanted to ask you about. This was one passage from the profile I did back in. Back in 2019 for the Intercept. The group officially launched Jason in April 2008. Ben Ami told early staffers that he wanted to make quick work of the conflict, as there were other big issues that needed attention. Quote, I want to try this theory of change, he would say, according to multiple people who heard his refrain at the time. And if it doesn't work, I'll close down the shop and we'll work on climate change. First of all, I wanted to get like, do you remember saying that? And what would you think of people who used to work at J Street and are now saying it had a reasonable theory of change for its moment? It no longer does, and it's time to.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Yeah, no, it's definitely a classic J Street moment. Definitely said it. What I actually, you know, my, my real line was much more frequently that I hope we'd succeed and then we'd shut down and go work on climate change. That was that, you know, I hope we would succeed now that we wouldn't succeed.

[Interviewer Crystal]

Yeah, we need help on AI too, Jeremy. We could use. Right.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Who knew? I didn't know that in 2008, but, you know, I'd much rather see us working on a lot of other things. I do think that the theory of change of J Street, which is that the, the politics of this issue are the root problem, that the policy is constrained and almost dictated by the politics. And so you needed a political intervention in order to shift American politics so that our policy could change. I, I really still believe that that theory of change is correct. And I think, as Crystal was saying at the beginning, we're seeing a very rapid shift. Part of that shift is people way to the left of J Street. You know, they're, that's. That's a natural development as a result of what Israel has done. And again, the things that Crystal's describing, you know, it leads you, Crystal, and it leads other people to take the positions you're taking, which are way to the left of J Street. And I don't disparage that at all. I understand it. You have to understand where many of us in the Jewish community come from who have a deep relationship with Israel. We. We still want to try to change Israel. You know, we still want to change the trajectory. We don't want to see it become a pariah state. We don't want to see it become an outcast state among the nations, which is where it's headed if it continues down the path that it's on. And so our theory of change, which is change American politics so American policy can be more balanced and more rational and help push for a resolution of this conflict. You know, solve this problem, not just punish, not just call out the bad guys, but actually solve this problem. And the solution to this problem ends in a border. There has to be a border for the state of Palestine, the state of Israel, and integration of both of those states into a successful and stable region.

[Interviewer Crystal]

I, first of all, very much appreciate the dialogue and your willingness to engage. And I know these are very difficult conversations, and this will be a difficult question as well. You know, you say you have this personal family connection to Israel, and I get that. Like, I'm an American. I think America does horrible things in the world. But I'm so committed to trying to change. Right? Even when that seems to be long odds. But the question is, why do that through an American organization? Wouldn't the way to change Israel be through Israel? And what do you say to people who say to have a quote, unquote, pro Israel PAC in America today is the moral equivalent of having a pro South Africa pac, you know, at the height of apartheid.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

I mean, you would hope that the pro South Africa, the people from South Africa who lived here who hated apartheid and wanted a different South Africa, would be pretty happy when Nelson Mandela came to power. And their view of pro South African would have been Mandela's victory. Right? And so for me, I am pro Israel, but I'm anti occupation. I am anti the moral abomination of what happened in Gaza. I am anti the settler terrorism that is happening on the west bank because I'm anti those things. That's how I define my pro Israel right? I am standing up for the idea that the state that represents the Jewish people should not behave this way. This is not what it means to be Jewish. This is not our values. And so why do I do it here? I'm an American. I am not a citizen of the state of Israel. I'm an American. My family is here. My kids are here. This is where my life is. And we in this country are responsible for our foreign policy, right? We're responsible for our politics. And as American Jews, we're responsible for the American Jewish community. And I think in all three of those arenas, in policy, politics and the Jewish community, we are misrepresented by the mainstream organizations of the American Jewish community that lobby for things that are not, in the long run, good for Israel, that are interfering in American politics in ways that are bad for American democracy and that are blowing up the American Jewish community and driving young people away from their communities rather than bringing them in. So all the work that we do is here.

[Interviewer Crystal]

Well, here's. I guess what I'm trying to get at is, and what the quote Ryan read really sort of points to is you're a very talented person, you're a very smart person. I think you have really done your best to act ethically. And I'm sure this has been a very difficult period for you, getting pulled in all sorts of directions, being called a cancer and a fake Jew and all of all of the rest. But there are a lot of things to work on in the world. And it's hard for me to understand why we as Americans should prioritize the needs of Israel over, for example, as lefties, as humanitarians here, over prevention of genocide, over many other issues that we could be working on. It's hard for me to understand how that would be the priority. And to be honest with you, at a time when you've had tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, we don't really know of Palestinian civilians who have been killed. It's almost offensive to me to center the, you know, the safety of a Jewish homeland when it's that state that has been committing those horrific acts in the world.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

So I think all things must be balanced. I 100% agree with you. It's offensive to me too. And what has happened, it's morally offensive to me as a Jew. It is morally offensive to me as an American who enabled what happened and put aside the morals. I also think this is an unbelievably self defeating and self destructive path that the state of Israel is on. And I think it's ultimately going to hurt Jewish people around the world. So I have a stake in it, even if I don't live there. Because the things that are happening there are coming back to my community and biting people that I know and hurting people that I know. So I think it is absolutely important. I deeply, deeply respect the pro Palestinian movement. I think that the Palestinian Americans, Arab Americans, Muslim Americans who are working for Palestine, it's a very important part of the discourse and similarly a Pro Israel Jewish organization is an important part of the discourse because we represent several million American citizens and we have a say in how these policies are conducted. And the way we act in American politics is going to have an impact on how whether or not we can defeat MAGA and whether or not we can save our own democracy. These issues interject themselves into the center of American politics, and they may be doing that to the detriment of our future as Americans. And so, for all of those reasons, I think it's really important for me and for J Street with our identity front and center, right next to those who are pro Palestinian and next to the Lebanese American community who's devastated, and the Iranian American community that's devastated. I mean, there's just a lot of people that are citizens of this country who have a deep connection to and care for what happens there and understand how what happens there also comes back and impacts us here.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

And last question from me, because I know you've got to run in a second. I think some of the remaining support that Israel has here in the United States from liberal Zionists comes from this idealistic notion that you presented about what Israel could be similar to how a lot of communists will say, well, true, communism has never been tried, but at this point, when the reality of what Israel is doing on the ground is so different from what the liberal kind of vision for it is, is propping up that liberal vision of it actively harmful and kind of fueling a delusional level of support for the reality on the ground?

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Only if one is not calling out that delusion. You know, I do not spare any words, right, in terms of describing just how awful these people are and what they're doing, how it violates every shred of my, you know, Jewish moral identity, everything that I've taught my kids about what it means to be a good person and follow the ethics and the morals of our people. I write about this every week. I have a substack called Word on the street, and I. Almost every single week, I'm writing about the, you know, the horror and the pain that this causes to. To believe very deeply in. In your tradition and the ethics that were handed down from generation to generation. And watch the state that's purporting to act in the name of your people violate every single one of those things. I mean, this is very, very painful. But I think it's very important that over the course of 250 years in this country, you know, as we fought for slavery, as we fought for suffrage, as we fought for civil rights and voting rights. And we know, you know, these things go back and forth and we take steps forward and we've seen, you know, the steps backwards that we're going. No one's giving up on the vision of what an America can and should be. You know, the, the idea that underlies america that started 250 years ago. These, these are still some very powerful ideas that have been terribly executed for 250 years, and we're still really working on them. I won't give up on the idea that a state that is the national homeland of the Jewish people can also treat the other people who live there well and can live at peace with its neighbors, including a state for the Palestinian people. That I think is not out of the question. And the horrors of this last few years is actually a moment for Israelis to take a look and say, well, maybe it actually is time to try a non Netanyahu path rather than living by the sword, rather than by creating a super Sparta, you know, that only knows how to bomb things and kill things. You know, maybe it is time for us to try a different path. And I believe that this is a really important argument to make to people both in this country and that country.

[Interviewer Crystal]

Well, Jeremy, once again, thank you so much for your engagement. I really, genuinely appreciate you fielding some, some difficult and challenging questions, and it's great to meet you and get to speak with you today.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Absolutely. Thank you so much to both of you. And I really appreciate the respectful dialogue. It's a real model of how to talk through these things.

[Interviewer Ryan Grim]

And now you'll get trashed even for coming on the program.

[Interviewer Crystal]

Coming on the program. All right, thank you, Jeremy. We'll see you soon.

[Jeremy Ben Ami]

Thanks, guys.

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