5/28/25: Leaked Kamala Speech, Jordan Peterson Vs Atheists, Trump Wild Pardon Spree, Elon Turns On Trump Budget

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – May 28, 2025

Hosts: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti | iHeartPodcasts

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1. Former Vice President Kamala Harris’s Leaked Speech at Australian Real Estate Conference ([02:02] - [04:11])

The episode opens with a discussion about a leaked video of former Vice President Kamala Harris speaking at the Australian Real Estate Conference 2025. Krystal Ball introduces the clip, highlighting Harris as "one of the frontrunners for the 2028 election" based on polling and her potential candidacy for California governor.

Saagar Enjeti draws historical parallels, stating, “[...] it's important we remember the 1930s... isolation does not equal insulation” ([03:08]). He elaborates on the dangers of isolationism, suggesting that retreating from global interdependence could lead to significant geopolitical conflicts, akin to the lead-up to World War I.

Krystal Ball critiques Harris’s foreign policy stance, asserting, “She also very much wants the US to continue to be the global cop” ([07:22]). The hosts express concerns that Harris’s alignment with post-Cold War internationalism may inadvertently foster nationalism, creating a paradox where isolationism could precipitate global wars.

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2. Jordan Peterson vs. Atheists Debate on Jubilee Show ([19:25] - [32:59])

Krystal and Saagar delve into Jordan Peterson’s recent appearance on the Jubilee show, which was initially marketed as a debate between “one Christian versus 20 atheists.” The reality of the debate, however, took a different turn, leading to widespread criticism.

Krystal Ball notes, “Nobody thinks it went well for Jordan Peterson. That includes corners of the right that typically defend Jordan Peterson” ([19:25]). She emphasizes that Peterson's inability to clearly define his Christian beliefs undermined his position, revealing contradictions in his professed faith.

In an exchange from the debate, Saagar Enjeti confronts Peterson on his definition of belief, leading to Peterson becoming increasingly evasive. Krystal highlights a pivotal moment: “you really quite nothing” ([25:00]), where a participant effectively dismantles Peterson’s stance by questioning his commitment to Christianity.

Krystal concludes that Peterson’s performance “confirms a lot of the criticisms of Jordan Peterson” and suggests that his role as a representative of the right is now in question: “We can no longer rely on Jordan Peterson to represent a sort of cogent side of the right” ([32:59]).

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3. Donald Trump’s Pardon Spree ([35:04] - [51:17])

The discussion shifts to former President Donald Trump’s extensive use of presidential pardons, focusing on high-profile cases that appear to reflect favoritism towards wealthy and connected individuals.

Saagar Enjeti references Ken Vogel’s New York Times article, detailing Trump’s pardon of Chrisley family members who were convicted of tax evasion: “This is ridiculous and outrageous” ([38:00]). He criticizes the selective justice system, stating, “There literally is a get out of jail free card for the rich” ([44:21]).

Krystal Ball adds context by comparing these pardons to earlier efforts like Alice Johnson’s pardon under Trump, distinguishing them from broader policy reforms like the First Step Act. She underscores the transactional nature of these pardons, noting, “They are putting someone’s personal connections above the rule of law” ([36:37]).

The hosts discuss the implications of such actions on public trust in the justice system, asserting that these pardons erode faith in equal treatment under the law.

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4. Energy Policy and the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) ([34:03] - [73:21])

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to dissecting the recent House-passed reconciliation bill, dubbed the “big beautiful bill,” and its impact on both clean and fossil fuel energy industries.

Ducky Huhn, founder of the energy company C Minus, explains that the bill disrupts the transition efforts for both clean and dirty energy: “The transition is really what is kind of getting lost in this new bill” ([53:01]). He highlights that while fossil fuel companies were investing in technologies like carbon capture and hydrogen, the bill’s stringent regulations and short project start times could derail these initiatives.

Saagar Enjeti expresses confusion over the bill’s beneficiaries, questioning, “Who benefits? I think a lot of the benefits that we've already seen from the IRA have benefited a lot of the Republican states and Republican districts” ([68:27]). He argues that the bill may inadvertently favor foreign entities, particularly China, by imposing restrictions that hinder domestic manufacturing and project initiation: “It seems like the way that they're going about that... China doesn’t even have much of a lobbying operation in the US like basically zero” ([73:21]).

Krystal Ball adds that the bill might counteract its own goals of onshoring and nearshoring energy production by making it difficult for projects to qualify for incentives without relying on foreign components: “If you wanted to write a bill to basically stop the development and production of energy in the United States, you couldn't do much better than the way this bill is currently written” ([73:21]).

The hosts conclude that the bill’s convoluted approach may lead to unintended consequences, potentially undermining the US energy sector while benefiting foreign competitors.

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5. Elon Musk’s Reaction to Trump’s Budget ([62:58] - [75:36])

Krystal Ball introduces snippets of Elon Musk’s comments from his appearance on CBS Sunday Morning, where he critiques the “big beautiful bill.” Musk expresses disappointment, stating, “I was like disappointed to see the massive spending bill, frankly, which increases the budget deficit” ([62:58]).

Krystal and Saagar discuss Musk’s realism regarding the bill’s impact on energy projects. Musk believes the bill’s provisions will undermine ongoing efforts in the energy sector, both clean and dirty, leading to inefficiencies and increased deficits: “I actually thought that when this big, beautiful bill came along... it could be both” ([63:26]).

The conversation highlights the tension between economic deficits and sustainable energy initiatives, with Musk advocating for more effective and less financially burdensome policies.

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Conclusion and Forward Look ([75:36] - End)

Krystal and Saagar wrap up the episode by emphasizing the complexity of current political actions and their far-reaching consequences across various sectors. They hint at future discussions, including the intricacies of Trump’s energy policies and their broader implications.

Krystal encourages listeners to subscribe to Breaking Points for in-depth analysis and access to premium content, reinforcing the show’s commitment to providing unbiased and comprehensive coverage.

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Notable Quotes:

• Saagar Enjeti ([03:22]): “Isolationism can lead to cataclysmic world war. It's a paradox.”

• Krystal Ball ([07:22]): “She also very much wants the US to continue to be the global cop.”

• Saagar Enjeti ([44:21]): “There literally is a get out of jail free card for the rich.”

• Krystal Ball ([73:21]): “If you wanted to write a bill to basically stop the development and production of energy in the United States, you couldn’t do much better than the way this bill is currently written.”

• Elon Musk ([62:58]): “I was like disappointed to see the massive spending bill, frankly, which increases the budget deficit.”

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This summary captures the essence of the May 28, 2025 episode of "Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar," focusing on key discussions surrounding Kamala Harris's political trajectory, Jordan Peterson's debated beliefs, Donald Trump's controversial pardons, the multifaceted energy policy implications of the IRA, and Elon Musk's critique of legislative spending.

Transcript

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Krystal Ball]

This is the only place where you.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free.

[Krystal Ball]

And all put together for you every.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Morning in your inbox.

[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com Former Vice President Kamala Harris was down in Australia for what else Ryan and I wanted to be there. We couldn't make it the Australian Real Estate Conference 2025 where she delivered remarks, presumably for a fat speaking fee, and actually started weighing in on some of what's happened over the course of the last year or so. Let's roll this first clip leaked video of former Vice President Kamala Harris right now. Currently we should add one of the frontrunners for the 2028 election. If you look at polling and a potential candidate still for California.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Can you imagine how much liquor they go through at the Australian Real Estate Conference.

[Krystal Ball]

Sounds amazing. We really should have been there. Next year, 2026. We can go ahead and take a look at the clip.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I do worry, frankly, about what's happening right now in our world.

[Krystal Ball]

I do worry that it is important that we remember history.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's important we remember the 1930s. It's important that we remember that history has taught us that isolation does not equal insulation.

[Krystal Ball]

It is important that we understand and.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Remember history, which taught us the interdependence and interconnection between nations. History that has taught us the importance of relationships of trust, the importance of friendships, integrity, honesty. As I said, I think your best work is ahead of you for sure. 100%.

[Krystal Ball]

I am unemployed right now. Everyone must be truth. Okay, so what you heard her just say there, other than the importance of friendships, which we can all agree on.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's important.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Evergreen Sentiments is a comparison to the 1930s, but not in the context of, like, rising fascism and authoritarianism domestically, but isolation, which is a criticism of Donald Trump's foreign policy, obviously, through tariffs and other efforts on the world stage, which I don't think you can really call isolationism. But that's what the sort of neoliberal community sees these moves as, I suppose.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, in her defense, there is an interesting parallel, and there's a book out now, ish, about this, making parallels between the kind of post World War I or leading into World War I period and now, which is that the. Like the 1880s and up through. Up up until World War I were this. This first period of globalization of the, you know, which, you know. Yeah, like internationalism becomes a real thing. You also had the international working people's, you know, movement, the Communists. It was international, like they called it. They saw themselves as bringing the working classes of the world together.

[Krystal Ball]

It's the predicate of the entire Cold War Red scare.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And then World War I happens and the rise of nationalism that. The rise of nationalism, that was a reaction to globalism. Globalization in the 10, 1900s and tens creates World War I and then produces this, like, intense retreat away from globalization into the post World War I period, where everyone is kind of retrenching and isolationism becomes this dominant ethos which then produces even hyper nationalism. And then we get World War II out of it. The book argues that what the. The proponents of liberal globalization the first time around didn't understand is that it was actually making things worse. It was making things better. If you lived in London and you were in the top 10, 5 to 10%, famously, there was some famous Quell. You could, you know, you could order something. You know, you could order anything you wanted from around the world and have it by the end of the day in like 1910 or in London or something. But that was. You, like, that was not 90 plus percent of people from England. And it particularly was devastating for people around the world. And so she's right that there is this interesting parallel going on and that isolationism can lead to cataclysmic world war. It's a paradox. Like, well, how could that possibly be?

[Krystal Ball]

Do you think that's what she meant, though? Cause I see it as more.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I think she's just throwing out platitudes.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, she's definitely doing that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

But I think it's also because her worldview is shaped by the post Cold War Fukuyama internationalism, which is very different from.

[Sagar Enjeti]

She also very much. She also very much wants the US to continue to be the global cop.

[Krystal Ball]

Exactly.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And I think that's moment on Charlemagne where he's like. The first caller was like, why are we spending all this money on these wars? And she's like, cause, you know, if we retreat, we're not safe. And like. So she really, like, makes this argument that the US has to be a global superpower or else our national security suffers. And nobody buys that.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, it's interesting because I think also Trump does buy, like, Trump has the same general perspective. He has a different way of getting from point A to point B. But he would also say that America's empire, America's prosperity depends on its empire. He just wants. Would say he wants it to be a more logical empire. I mean, that's the Greenland Panama approach, Taiwan approach to all of this. He thinks it should be a more old school, a more logical, efficient empire than a sort of sprawling USAID empire. So what Tucker Carlson refers to as gay race communism, that's the.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What's he called? Gay race communism.

[Krystal Ball]

Gay race communism, which should be a bumper sticker that you have on your van, by the way.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Would I be for it or against it?

[Krystal Ball]

You're very for it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay. Race. Not even trying to make sense.

[Krystal Ball]

But I mean, you'd be for it and against it, I suppose. But that's what they would say, right? That it's not about the sprawling USAID pro China integration with our adversaries and all of that. So it's in the same way. In a way it's the same thing, but it's a different approach to it. And I think Kamala Harris, situating herself in this way, as, I mean, polling again, it's not a surprise that because of name recognition, she's at the top of polls. When you look at 2028 presidential candidates, I think she's definitely not running away from it. There was a quote in the Times recently of Kamala Harris saying she's staying in the fight. I think is the paraphrased version of what she said. So she may be speaking at the Australian Real estate conferen conference 2025, but she's very much still involved in American politics. She could run for California governor. California is what ran one of the. It was one of the largest economies in the world just as a state alone. It's one of the. I think it's like, top 10.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's the largest or something.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, it's huge. So she's not going anywhere, that's for sure.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And we may end up using what we're about to talk about as the headline for this segment. If we do, apologies for making you sit through the Australian real estate convention. But in more Kamala Harris news, in the Jake Tapper Alex Thompson book Original Sin, there's this anecdote that says that she was quite angry at Anderson Cooper for pushing her so aggressively on why is Joe Biden having a medical episode in front of the entire country during this debate and not letting the kind of scripted line that she had come up with just sit and then move on. And so Harris told her colleagues, quote, this mother grabber doesn't treat me like the dang vice president of the United States. She said to colleagues, so in the book, the longer episode is kind of. And we'll play the Anderson Cooper clip in a second. I remember we covered it at the time. It was quite something. So it goes through her watching the debate with her staff, and she's like, how are people responding? And they're like, boss, people are calling for him to drop out. He's literally dying up on stage. And the Biden campaign reaches out to her and says, why don't you go ahead and cancel all these, like, media hits that you have tomorrow? Because I don't really see. We don't really see what the upside is. And you going on and talking about this. And she said, no, absolutely not. I'm going for it. So then they sit down and they debate how they're gonna respond. What talking points can they come up with to respond to this medical episode that the entire country just witnessed? And they talk so long, they miss CBS THIS Morning. Cause they just talk right through it. They Miss another one. And then they go on Anderson Cooper. And they had come up with the line, well, just. You'll see the talking points. Let's roll this Anderson Cooper back and forth. He was a very different person on the stage four years ago when you debated him. You must. I mean, that's certainly true, is it not, Anderson? The point has to be performance in terms of what a president does, a president who has insurrection against the Capitol.

[Krystal Ball]

No, but I got the point that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You'Re making about a one and a.

[Krystal Ball]

Half hour debate tonight. I'm talking about three and a half.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Years of performance in work that has been historic. But is that the man who we saw? Is that the other guy on the debate? Anderson. Anderson, according to the book, the Biden staff loved that line and that wasn't part of the talking point, but this line she came up with that you're talking about an hour and a half debate. I'm talking about three and a half years of genius delivering for the American people. The Biden campaign loved that all of it was pointless. There are not words that you can put together to make people unsee what they saw.

[Krystal Ball]

But this is a problem that Kamala Harris never will ever, ever, ever run away from. And it's one that the book identifies. The book shows that she identified immediately. It's obvious that she's locked into this position where, as she says in the book, what do I do if I distance. What do I look like if I distance myself from Joe Biden? I look disloyal. And she's not wrong. I mean, you'd look like.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And if you don't, you look like an enabling moron.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And she will never get away from this. I mean, there's no way. This is the defining. I mean, she was the vice president. It's not like she was the green jobs czar. She was the vice President of the United States and was regularly. This was. That clip you just saw was literally right after the debate. But she has three and a half years of defending him. So under. That's how most people remember her. She was a senator before. So people's memory of Kamala Harris prominently is as Joe Biden's vice president. And I just think it's a permanent stain that she's never really going to be able to shake.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And they Democrats deliberately nominated the person who was in precisely the worst position to talk about the thing that people were most concerned about at that moment, which was this lie that they all told about whether or not Biden was there or not.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Like if they depict anybody else, Shapiro, Whitmer, any Newsom, literally any other human being other than the vice president, they would have more distance from Biden and more ability to say, I was just as shocked as you were when I saw that and I am angry about the COVID up. You can't have the vice president because the vice president would have to admit that they weren't actually in the meetings and paying any attention. Exactly. In order.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. It's interesting because that shows.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's that Johnny Cash song.

[Krystal Ball]

Which one?

[Sagar Enjeti]

I mean, I don't think he wrote the song, but it's the one where the only way that the guy could get off of the capital punishment, getting hanged is to admit that he was in the arms of his best friend's wife because his alibi was to him worse than just getting hanged for a murder he didn't commit. Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

It's interesting because it shows Kamala Harris being sort of undermined by the things that made her vice president, which is that she's, she was a black woman, which is why they kept her on the ticket instead of going for another vice presidential candidate because they didn't want to look. And you see this come out at some points in the book too. It looks horrible if you pass up the opportunity to have the first black woman president and then you're like, nope, we are going with, we're going to run Josh Shapiro as vice president or we are going to then have this little mini primary skip over her. So then she gets put in this position because she was seen as the necessary heir apparent. And I mean, any sitting vice president would have been in that position. But I think they were especially wary of having a mini primary because it would look like they didn't have faith in this pick. So it's just like she was in an awful position that I don't think she's ever going to recover from. Now, granted, she could still win different elections if they're in a lesser of two evil situation where there's a horrible Republican candidate in California that's, you know, obviously not wouldn't surprise anybody, but. So it's possible she continues to climb the ladder. But whether she's actually able, her national reputation is ever able to recover and she's actually going to be seen as a real leader in the Democratic Party. Again, I think is unlikely because this is everyone's memory of her. And I just don't know how you recover from that without changing completely a total transformation of Kamala Harris. And that also seems very unlikely.

[Sagar Enjeti]

She's got time. That's true. The song was written by Danny Dill and Mary John Wilkin. Originally recorded by Lefty Frizzell.

[Krystal Ball]

Lefty Frizzell.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The Long Black Veil.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, long Black veil. Yes, yes.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You could probably play that, right?

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, absolutely, yes. And have beautiful songs. Beautiful American song, too.

[Sagar Enjeti]

All right. Up next, Jordan Peterson getting dog. Walked by a bunch of college kids. Every day our world gets a little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind us to be more human. Thank you for calling Amica Insurance. Hey, I was just in an accident. Don't worry, we'll get you taken care of. At Ameca, we understand that looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking. It's human. Amica Empathy is our best policy. Not everyone who handles your personal information is going to be as careful as you are. And it only takes one mistake to expose it to hackers and identity theft. Maybe that's why there's a new victim of identity theft every five seconds in the United States. Fortunately, there's LifeLock. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning Lifelock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft. You can't control how diligent others are with your personal information, but with Lifelock, you can help protect it. Act now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off. Terms apply. You're a hustler. You get things done, but you don't always do things for yourself. With JLO Beauty, it takes just a few minutes a day to look like facials are a regular part of your routine. JLo Beauty's Fresh and Flawless Skincare Kit includes six skincare products that work as hard as you do. They'll hustle to brighten, firm and hydrate your complexion morning and night. This skincare kit is a one and done solution that is clinically proven to visibly tighten and lift for instant and long lasting results. Cleanse, treat, moisturize, protect. The fresh and flawless Skincare kit does it all. See why the kit's a Bestseller today? Visit jlobeauty.com Deluxe and get an extra 25% off your first shipment plus free gifts with Code Deluxe. If you're not satisfied, return the bottles within 60 days for your money back. See the website for details. That's JLo Beauty.com Deluxe to get that JLO glow.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, Jordan Peterson made a splashy appearance on the Jubilee show and boy, do we have a couple of clips. It did not go well. Basically, nobody thinks it went well for Jordan Peterson. That includes corners of the right that typically defend Jordan Peterson, who is controversial on the right. We'll get into all of that because this confirms a lot of the criticisms of Jordan Peterson. This was a debate that was originally billed as one Christian versus 20 atheists. And that was the title of the Jubilee video. We are going to get into why that's controversial and why that became controversial. Before we do, take a look at this first. Clip D1 so do you believe in.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The all knowing, all powerful, all good notion of God? What do you mean by believe? You think it to be true? That's the circular definition. What do you mean by circular? Believe. How is that circular?

[Krystal Ball]

Because you added no content to the.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Answer by substituting the word true and believe. I said you think it to be true. All right, so if you believe something, you stake your life on it. What do you mean by that? You live for it and you die for it. That's what I mean by that. It isn't something that you say.

[Krystal Ball]

It isn't something that's associated with logical consistency.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's not declarative, it's not propositional, it's not a figment of your imagination. It's the presupposition of your attention and your action. And you're either fragmented, in which case you worship multiple gods, or there's some unity at the bottom of it that makes you an attraction, unstoppable force. Okay, so you're saying that you don't believe something if you wouldn't die for it? No. Really? No. Okay, so then how would you define belief? Something you say, explain. Like, I could believe it is the case that this pen exists, but if someone, like, threatened my life. Right. I would lie in order to be able to save my life. Right. Like, I think you would do that too. You wouldn't lie to save your life. Don't be so sure. You. You wouldn't lie to save your life. How much do you know about me? I didn't lie to save my career. I didn't lie to save my clinical practice. Would you lie to, like, save your children? Your mom, your dad? I don't think lying would save them. Can There ever be a circumstance logically that lying could save someone? Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And if you're steeped in sin, you're.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Likely to live in circumstances like that. I'll give you an example. If you're, like, in, like, Nazi Germany and it is the case that there's, like, Jewish people in your attic and you're trying to protect them, would you lie to, like, the Nazis? I would have done everything I bloody well could so I wouldn't be in that situation. Begin with. It's a hypothetical, and it's not answering hypotheticals. No, I can't answer a hypothetical like that because. Look, don't play games. I'm not playing games. If you present me with an intractable moral choice that's stripped of context and you back me into a corner, you're playing game. I just told you I would do everything that I could to make sure that I'm never in that situation. By the time you've got there, you've made so many mistakes that there's nothing you can do that isn't a sin. Being born in Nazi Germany, in trying to protect people that you care about, like, there could be a Jewish friend that you have and you want to protect them. I think you should have them in the. Give up on that line of questioning. Give up on just, like, trying to clarify your position. Because I don't, like. Are you, like, uncomfortable with me asking this question? It's just a basic hypothetical. Like, I could ask you. It's just a basic hypothetical where you're. You put Jews, lives at stake, not see Germany. That's just a basic idea. Obviously, you would lie in that scenario to save their life. But you're, like, not trying to answer this question. So what you're trying to do is you're trying to muddy the waters when I ask you, like, do you believe this? Do you think this to be true? So you don't actually have to answer the questions. And plenty of Christians don't like that because they clearly see that you don't really like, want to be associated with Christianity. Imagine that I was in a situation where the best I could do as a consequence of my previous mistakes was to tell the least amount of lie I could manage.

[Krystal Ball]

All right, so, Ryan, first of all, I would lie to save you, but we're all chomping at the bit to respond to that. Before we do, let's roll this next clip of another person getting the better of Jordan Peterson in this exchange, let's go over your definition of worship again.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What's your definition of worship, attend to, Attend to, prioritize. Do Catholics sacrifice for. Do Catholics attend to. Do they prioritize Mary over all other human beings? No, I didn't say overall, did I?

[Krystal Ball]

I didn't add that to my.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You understand. I said there was a hierarchy as well. You attended, so you can attend to something trivially or you can attend to it deeply.

[Krystal Ball]

And now you're adding stuff to the definition.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But your original definition. I added the hierarchy part at the beginning. Are you familiar.

[Krystal Ball]

Are you familiar with the Immaculate Conception?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Why is that relevant? Because you go to a Catholic church, don't you? Or you've attended recently.

[Krystal Ball]

You're interested in Catholicism, aren't you?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Sure. All right. Are you familiar with their doctrines? Somewhat. Okay, you're familiar. How do they regard. How do they regard Mary? Why are you asking me? Because you're a Christian. You say that. I haven't claimed that. Oh, what is this? Is this Christians versus Atheists? I don't know. You don't know where you are right now? Don't be a smart ass. Well, and I mean, either you're a Christian or you're not. If you're a smart. Either you're a Christian or you're not. Which one is it? I could be either of them. But I don't have to tell you. You don't have to tell me. I was under the impression I was invited to talk to a Christian. Am I not talking to a Christian? No, you were invited to. I think everyone should look at the title of the YouTube channel. You're probably in the wrong YouTube video. You're really quite something. You are. Aren't I? But you're really quite nothing. Right. You're not a Christian. Okay, I'm done with him.

[Krystal Ball]

All right. So that guy came out later and said, indeed, the event was billed to the people during casting and who were invited as Jordan Peterson as a Christian versus 20 atheists. And so the controversy, because the video has since been changed to. From one Christian versus 20 atheist to Jordan Peterson versus 20.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What is a Jordan Peterson?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, define a Jordan. Can you define a Jordan Peterson? Right, but Jordan Peterson, if you are a Christian, people know that Jordan Peterson has long been seen as very problematic because he goes out and does these what are billed as very deep academic lectures on Christianity but. But cannot bring himself to ultimately say that he believes in the truth of the Resurrection. He believes that Jesus actually died and was raised from the dead and is not. Is more of like a. Maybe the right way to say it would be a cultural Christian.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Like he's a heretic.

[Krystal Ball]

He's definitely a heretic. But everyone has sort of given him.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Some earn this man.

[Krystal Ball]

Everyone's sort of given him some patience because he's sort of discovering. It's almost like Russell Brand. Right. Like he's on a. He seems like he's on a journey.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Let him cook.

[Krystal Ball]

Right, right, right. But in the process, he has said some things that are just utterly heretical. He is a terrible representation of Christianity, but the 20 atheists brought that out better than most conservatives ever have in conversation with Jordan Peterson. So what did you make of it, Ryan?

[Sagar Enjeti]

The whole thing is comical. The guy's such a fraud. And the final line was devastating because it was blunt, but also earned. Like, he said he wouldn't say whether he's a Christian or not. And then he used the line, you're really something, aren't you? Set him up for this frying pan across the face, walked right into it, and you're really nothing. And so the kid had such a delightful retort because it works on so many levels. It's like, okay, you're nothing because you won't say whether you're a Christian or you're an atheist. And yet you showed up here at this debate where you're supposed to be a Christian. You won't allow anything to be defined. So you constantly escape having to make any genuine analysis or give any thought to anything. But it works on the deeper level that there is nothing there. And, you know, you should clean your room. Like, that's his big thing. Like, you should actually do that. Like, it's smart.

[Krystal Ball]

But he can't answer the question of why ultimately the satisfaction of really anybody, just that it's like the Christians would say, there's a reason that you should do that. But he's never been able to get from point A to point B on that in a way that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And the first one was hilarious, where he's like, I would not have put myself in that situation. I would have done things to prevent it. So what are the things that he could have done? The kid mentions one of them. You could be not born in Nazi Germany, but, like, in the hypothetical, that's. That's not an option. Like you were born into there after that. Is he saying that he would have, through force of will, prevented the rise of Hitler?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Is he saying he would just not have actually participated in rescuing Jews from the Holocaust?

[Krystal Ball]

Well, he's making this absurdity.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Or is he saying he would have been a Nazi, so therefore he would have been actually knocking on the doors, not on the other side of it.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, he's making. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't. What he's saying actually does not make any sense. And that's what everyone. There's no logical route to the point he's making because that would be predicated on this idea that truth prevents awfulness from happening, that a culture can be sort of like, based on universal truths and it will all be great, which is not Christian at all, because the truth, the fundamental truth at the heart of Christianity is that man is fallen. So if you're a Christian, even that, even classical liberalism and democracy doesn't save you from evil, so it doesn't save you, prevent you from being put in those awful positions. So, no, that doesn't make sense in of itself. But Ryan, also, Jordan Peterson is sort of in this position where I don't know if I blame him or Jubilee because he's talked about himself as people ask him if he's a Christian, are.

[Sagar Enjeti]

There other Christians you could get?

[Krystal Ball]

Of course. But he also doesn't even ever agree with anybody saying he's a Christian. He always sort of takes it and says, well, I'm a new kind of Christian. That's one way he's answered the question. The other way he's answered the question is by saying, you know, I'm a Christian in the deepest possible sense. He says he believes this whole thing is that the stories of Christianity, Judeo Christianity, are these like human archetypes that are based on the truth about humanity that's. That's inside of us. And because he's a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and so he pulls that out and says this is very like Jungian approach to what truth is. And then Christianity through that lens is true in the sense that it's human and it's just a mess as you're trying to work that out in public and also be treated as like a political spokesperson for the right. So I feel like. I don't know whether Jordan Peterson agreed to that or if Jubilee invited people to do one Christian versus 20 atheists. I don't know if Jordan Peterson, I mean, the kid who we just played, I don't know if he's a kid, but he came out, he looks young and said, Suez Canal. No, that's a callback to earlier in the episode. But he came out and said Jordan Peterson seemed to know that that was what the debate was being billed as before.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right? Yeah, of course he did. Anyway, Jordan Peterson got erect.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, my final take on Jordan Peterson is just that he is A person who said something really obvious at a time when it was somewhat difficult to say something like that. And he made a good point.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What was the point?

[Krystal Ball]

It's just his interview. No, his original interview that went mega viral. He had already started to have some presence before this. But about like biological sex, that interview goes mega viral.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's where he took off. Okay.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Catapults him to huge fame after that. The book comes out and becomes this massive bestseller. And I think the book did some real good. And I also think it was low hanging fruit. And so because of that, he was catapulted into mega stardom, which is difficult for anybody to cope with. He seems like he's coping with it not particularly well. And on top of that, he was famous for picking some low hanging fruit. And that doesn't make you a genius to sort of make a point about biological sex and then to make some decent points for young men. It was hard to say those things at the time, but it doesn't take a genius. But I think he's been thrust into this position where everyone expects him to be a towering thought leader. And he never really came from that background. He just. He said something really.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He thought he did.

[Krystal Ball]

Right, right, right, right. It's easy to confuse it when everyone is. You're selling out massive venues around the country and you have a massive bestseller and everyone's telling you that people are paying money for your advice, big money for your advice. So I think that's the position that he's found himself in now. And at Unherd, we've covered this debate about cultural Christianity a lot. Ayaan Hirsi Ali wrote the essay for us about how she's now a Christian, not just a cultural Christian. This is something real going on. I interviewed Alex o' Connor after he moderated a debate between Dawkins and Jordan Peterson, which was just as frustrating as this because Peterson cannot bring himself to say that he believes he'll use different definitions of true about what's true about Christianity. So let's find another representation on that side of the debate. I think at this point going forward, it's. We can no longer rely on Jordan Peterson to represent a sort of cogent side of the right. Going forward, he's on his own journey.

[Sagar Enjeti]

All right, Jubilee, get it together.

[Krystal Ball]

Let him cook.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Let's move over to Trump who is now engaged in a pardon spree and we'll talk about a whole bunch of these that he just did. Todd and Julie what are the names? Todd and Julie Chrisley from the reality.

[Krystal Ball]

TV show Chrisley Knows Best. Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So they're getting a pardon. Ken Vogel has a piece in the New York Times about this fraudster whose mom gave a million bucks to Trump and did three fundraisers for Trump and Paul Walsh act got a, got a pardon just before he was about to report to prison, I believe. I don't think he ever actually had to go to prison. We'll talk about his crimes are really atrocious. And then a sheriff in Virginia who was basically selling like fake badges and letting like rich people be fake deputies in order for bribes. In exchange for bribes, he also got pardoned. So let's start with the first element up here, there's Alice Johnson, who was pardoned during Trump won and Trump is so proud to have pardoned her. She was in prison for selling drugs and running a kind of drug empire. And she's now sort of become the pardon czar.

[Krystal Ball]

She was over prosecuted.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And that's the argument he's gonna make about these other pardons.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, yeah. Mostly a weed dealer, right? Or something. Wasn't crack.

[Krystal Ball]

I thought it was crack.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Was it crack? Anyway, go back and look. Yes. So anyway, here they are in the Oval Office calling up Chris. That's a terrible thing. It's a terrible thing, but it's a great thing because your parents are going to be free and clean. And I hope we can do it by tomorrow. Is that okay?

[Krystal Ball]

We'll try getting it done tomorrow.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So give them. I don't know them, but give them.

[Krystal Ball]

My regards and wish them a good life.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Mr. President. Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

Thank you for bringing my parents back.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, well, they were given a pretty harsh treatment based on what I'm hearing. Congratulate your parents. Congratulations. Savannah and Alice had a lot to do with this. And just congratulate your parents. And I hear they're terrific people. This should not have happened. So. And you.

[Krystal Ball]

Thank you so much.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Boy, they have good, good children. You're no longer children, but I'll say it anyway. They have good children, don't they? So top reality TV stars, they were busted for tax evasion.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is not one I get super worked up about because they did some time. They did the crime. They did some time. And does the world necessarily benefit from them spending 20 years in prison? No. I'd like. I don't want people to get special treatment just because they're getting special treatment. Obviously they're getting special treatment. Literally special treatment. They're literally getting pardoned by the President of the United States now. So that is ridiculous and outrageous. But setting that aside, you do your tax evasion, go do some. Do a little bit of time. You don't need to lock these nonviolent people up for decades.

[Krystal Ball]

The Alice Johnson pardon people remember from Kim Kardashian spearheading that effort, I think, with Van Jones as well. But that was coupled with what was called the First Step act, which was a. A large scale policy effort. But this is not that. This is very much. That's the kind of difference between targeting one over prosecution and then coupling it with a big policy act. That's not what's happening in this case. This is literally just special treatment based on Savannah Chrisley and that's who he was talking to. He was talking to the Chrisley's children. Savannah Chrisley was the voice that you.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Watched that one, that show.

[Krystal Ball]

I watched it when it first came out. It was pretty, I feel like it cooked the first couple of years and then it went down to. It went downhill. But that was the era of Duck Dynasty when these big networks were trying to appeal more to middle America by putting these family sitcom type reality shows out. And it was fine for a little while, but the luster wore off pretty quickly with that one. They're not the most appealing characters.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And the argument on their behalf was that the IRS and the lead IRS person that was going after them had their face up on a bullseye and really wanted them and considered them to be like Trump's kind of avatar.

[Krystal Ball]

He said they were the Trumps of Georgia.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right. And so there was some political motivation behind going after them according to this defense. And you know, all right, they got him. They did a little time, let him go. It's fine.

[Krystal Ball]

Their tax adviser also went to jail, was also prosecuted for this. They were found guilty of tax evasion and bank frau. Basically they were hiding their money to defraud the IRS and banks is what they were found guilty of as well as the tax adviser, the financial advisor in this case. We don't have to dwell too much on the Chrisley case because there are a couple of other ones. But I will just say, Ryan, I remember at the rnc, I was sitting in the press thing watching the kind of boring stuff happen before you get the keynote every night. And Savannah Chrisley came out and did this utterly, what's the right word? Obsequious pitch about her parents to Donald Trump. And it was so cringe worthy because it was such a nakedly transactional attempt to free her parents from prison. And I remember thinking, my gosh, this is going to work. And here we are. Sure enough, she went on Lara Trump's Fox News show just in the last several weeks. And Savannah credits that with bringing it to Trump's attention. She said, just in the last 24 hours he watches every edition of that show and I'm pretty sure it's what but brought it back to his attention. So it's just sort of funny how easy it is to cooperate with Donald Trump, how easy it is to negotiate with Donald Trump. You just have to I remember watching this at the RNC and hearing her compare their plight to Trump's plight and just thinking, my gosh, this is going to play him like a Fiddle.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. One of the things, like the word downtown is that one of the ways you're supposed to pay Trump now is not just the Trump coin, but you're supposed to, quote, unquote, invest in Melania's documentary because there's all these legal ways you can move money. Like, hey, you put in a million dollars, you become an investor in this documentary. Oh, it turns out documentary is not going to make any money. It's a write off for you. It's a business loss. You invested it, you lost it. But it's a legal bribe. The other way, of course, is Trump sues you like your cbs, and then you pay him a settlement. So there's all these clever legal ways to do bribery. Some of it is just you just give him a million dollars, which is what Paul Walzack's mother did. So move to the next one. Great story by Ken Vogel in the Times. So this was a guy who dropped out of college and then inherited his. We're a meritocracy. So he inherited his mom's nursing home company in Florida, Red Flag already. Nursing home company in Florida. The way that these companies, all companies work is you withhold money for Social Security, Medicare, payroll taxes from your employees, and then you send that to the states and the federal government, you withhold the tax money and then it goes back to the state because it's not your money. They earned it. It's their paycheck. But you do handle it like the businesses handle it. If you notice on your paycheck this money is withheld, there is a bank account that that withholding goes to before it is sent off to the government. And what a company can do, what a CEO can do, is just take that money. And that's what Walzack was convicted of doing. He took that money, he bought a $2 million yacht and lived just enormous, you know, Bergdorf Goodman, Cartier just lived enormously large with stolen money. His mom, you know, who was wealthy from having run this nursing home company, you know, hosted three fundraisers for Trump. So it gets you in the good graces.

[Krystal Ball]

Big fundraisers, too.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. But then it was she paid what, a million dollars? So they reached out, they're trying to get this on clemency. So she reaches out to do this. She then gets invited. So this is how this works. They know she wants something from them. So then as he writes, Ms. Fogo was invited to a million dollar per person fundraising dinner last month that promised face to face access to Mr. Trump at his private Mar A Lago Club in Palm Beach, Florida. Less than three weeks after she attended the dinner, Mr. Trump signed a full and unconditional pardon. It came just in the nick of time for Mr. Walzack, sparing him from having to pay nearly 4.4 million in restitution and from reporting to prison for an 18 month sentence that had been handed down just 12 days earlier. A judge had justified the incarceration by declaring that there, quote, is not a get out of jail free card for the rich. False.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm sorry, judge.

[Sagar Enjeti]

There literally is a get out of jail free card for the rich.

[Krystal Ball]

It's not gold like the Visa card, but it could be. It might as well be a million dollars.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And so wildly, insanely corrupt. This is a person who stole money from working people to buy, literally to buy a yacht, and then used some of that stolen money. Or his mother, I guess his mother. Let's assume she didn't steal the money. Used money that they made on the backs of the workers. We can at least say that. And paid it to Trump. And now he's. And not just commuted. Like there's different. You can commute a sentence which leaves the felony on your record. And you would. He could have said, I'm commuting the sentence. But you still have to pay the restitution to the workers. 4.4 million that you've been sentenced to pay. You can also just do a full and unconditional pardon. You want to keep their money, right? You earned it. How'd you earn it? By having the password to the bank account and moving it from them to yourself and won't spend a day in jail. And you can go ahead, keep the money.

[Krystal Ball]

No, this story by Vogel is insane. And it also gets into the wild connection between the Ashley Biden diary project Veritas.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Oh, we didn't even talk about that. Put out, lay that element. Because that's the argument that his mother made, that his mother was involved with this Ashley Biden diary and that the law enforcement came after them. And so this was actually all payback. It wasn't about the workers that he stole the money from. This was payback. So, yeah, what was the. You guys remember this Ashley Biden diary?

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, the diary is a horrible, horrible.

[Sagar Enjeti]

She went to this rehab, she left.

[Krystal Ball]

A diary behind that had allegations that were disgusting.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Basically it said, was it weird that my dad would shower with me or something like that when she was older?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Not 12 or something like that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it was some creepy stuff in there. Yes. And, you know, no smoking gun, but Creepy stuff. Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And who knows if that's true. It was a diary of someone who was mentally unwell, in rehab, but it was there, Right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And then somebody finds it, sells it. Like there's this whole sordid Coen Brothers esque.

[Krystal Ball]

It is very Coen Brothers that winds.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Up with it getting published. And then Project Veritas like o' Keeffe got raided over this.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. So a man who is friends with Faggo contacts her about the diary. Ken Vogel writes, when she was first told of the diary, she said she thought it would help Mr. Trump's chances of winning the election. And then they brought that diary to a fundraiser at her home that Donald Trump Jr. And Kimberly Guilfoyle attended. The diary was shown.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's right. And Trump Jr. Was like, get this away from me. This is. Yeah, Trump. I think this is one place where Trump Jr actually did the right thing. He was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Do not involve me with this.

[Krystal Ball]

It's crazy. It's just such a crazy story in.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The film when Donald Trump Jr. Is like, this is. This is too much.

[Krystal Ball]

The fact that this woman was involved in that. Like you said, it's Coen Brothers ass is the only way you can even look at it. And he was.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So then it starts getting bought and sold.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. So Wall street was about to. He was about to be sentenced. And so the.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He was sentenced. He was about to report to prison.

[Krystal Ball]

He was about to report. And Ken Rice came, quote, just in the nick of time, clearly. And one thing just to note there is. It's similar to the Savannah Chrisley case of people knowing how to make these appeals. So the mom Fago was apparently openly making an appeal based on her persecution.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We were persecuted.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, exactly. Yep, exactly. So now we have this other story. This is, I believe, the next element. Yeah. This is E4. So this is a story of Sheriff Scott Jenkins, who Trump is giving a, quote, full and unconditional pardon to. He was also. He was the one who was about to report.

[Sagar Enjeti]

CNN comment and future Kentucky senator.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, Scott Jennings.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Scott Jennings, Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Scott Jenkins, who was convicted on federal bribery charges last year. He was about to report to prison, I think today. He was about to report to prison, and then within 24 hours of him reporting to President Trump pardoned him. So from Reuters, they write he was, quote, a former Virginia sheriff who served an area about two hours outside D.C. was convicted by a jury in December 2024 for accepting more than $75,000 in bribes in exchange for appointment as Auxiliary deputy. She. He had been sentenced to 10 years in federal prison. And Ryan, I suppose there's potentially an argument that the sentence and also the Chrisley sentences are long.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Too much. I'm with them. Okay. 10 years for that. And you took 75,000 in campaign contributions, which is different than taking it in cash money and exchange. You made the local car dealer like a fake cop. You let him be a fake cop for a day. It can be dangerous. Like Oklahoma. There's this case in Oklahoma where they let this rich guy be a fake cop, and he shot and killed a guy because he meant to pull his taser and accidentally pulled his pistol and killed a man. So, like, this is. This is to me, if you want to take your fake badge and go home with it, like happens with nine year olds, fine. But like, you give him a fake badge and a real gun and no training, now the community is the one that's gonna pay so that you can get these bribes.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But still, 10 years is a little bit excessive.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And that's the argument Trump's going.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He keeps saying, but he's a big Trump guy. And they're like, they came after me because I'm a Trump guy.

[Krystal Ball]

And you heard right. And that works so well on Donald Trump. And everybody knows it works so well on Donald Trump. And he said it in the Chrisley conversation with Savannah. He said they were treated very badly. And so it' swe Blagojevich got this too. Right. He sort of made a turn to being pro Trump, and that's all it took. And I don't know, Ryan, if Trump is being taken for a ride so much as he just enjoys the deference and obsequiousness.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Anybody who goes through the criminal justice system comes out hating prosecutors, including Trump. Yeah. Yeah. And so he feels that if I ever get convicted of anything, I'm gonna remind Trump of all the nice things I said about him. You have so many clips, so many good clips.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, endless reel.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I compliment his sense of humor a lot. So just let's clip this one and save it for if I ever need it.

[Krystal Ball]

This is for Ryan.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Never get caught stealing people's tax money and buying a yacht with it.

[Krystal Ball]

And let's just mention, of course, Joe Biden had an unprecedented pardon policy. He pardoned family members, corrupt family members. Pardone Anthony Fauci. Absolutely. That all happened.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He pardoned this terrible sex criminal in Pennsylvania.

[Krystal Ball]

Preemptive pardons, those are always favors. Right. People would say, why would you pardon that guy? It's a favor to someone. Right. Someone got that in front of him.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Must have. Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

So, yes, Joe Biden was unprecedented in that respect and was transactional in that respect. This is a different level, obviously. This is a level of people nakedly making transactional appeals to the president and him responding when you get that sort of obsequious approach.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And usually they wait till presidents wait till the end of their term. They're so embarrassed about this stuff.

[Krystal Ball]

That's interesting, right?

[Sagar Enjeti]

He's doing it right out, like Tuesday afternoon.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. It's a really interesting question about what norm or to what extent that sets a norm going forward and to what extent Biden's pardons set a norm going forward, because those were, quote, unquote, preemptive of pardons of people who hadn't even been convicted.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So Trump has learned that nothing matters.

[Krystal Ball]

But that's the era that we live in right now, this last decade. We're 10 years since Trump descended the golden escalator, and we're learning that we don't actually know what the norms are anymore and where they will be in the post Trump era if we ever approach such a moment.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Up next, we're gonna talk about the energy portion of Trump's massive, big, beautiful reconciliation package, which bizarrely helps China develop its energy infrastructure and will destroy ours both clean and dirty.

[Krystal Ball]

We'll see.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Stick around for that. At Ameca Insurance, we know it's more than just a house. It's your home. The place that's filled with memories. The early days of figuring it out to the later years of still figuring it out for the place you've put down roots. Trust Amica Home Insurance. Ameca Empathy is our best policy. Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance, and keep an eye on what your kids are spending. With real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place, try Greenlight Risk free [e-mail] iheart when you're in HR, it can feel like nothing is easy. From payroll to pto, from onboarding to benefits, and every everything in between, it's a constant juggle of tasks, systems and spreadsheets. But your HR software, that's the easy part. Meet Bamboohr. Trusted by over 34,000 companies, it handles all your HR tasks, payroll, benefits and time tracking so your team and your company can grow as fast as well. Bamboo and BambooHR software is actually easy to use. One simple system that pulls all your people data together in one place. So you can ditch scattered systems and wasted hours on tasks that should only take minutes. Because when HR is easier, you can focus on what matters Most, your people. HR is hard. BambooHR is easy. Ready to simplify all your HR tasks for a limited time, get a $100 Visa gift card when you complete a free [e-mail] giftcard again, that's bamboohr.com giftcard terms and conditions apply. The House passed reconciliation bill. The big beautiful bill, as everybody knows, takes a sledgehammer to Joe Biden's inflation Reduction act and all the clean energy tax credits in that. But something strange has happened on the way through the House and over to the Senate, which is that the dirty energy industry, the fossil fuel industry, has realized that it takes a sledgehammer to it as well. And so to talk about this and to walk us through how it is and why that is and what's going on, is Ducky Huhn, who is the founder of a dirty energy company trying to make it as clean as possible, called C minus. I say dirty energy because it's involved with fossil fuels. A lot of your career has been trying to make fossil fuels cleaner, but not trying to kind of eradicate fossil fuels. Because everybody in the energy industry, as I understand it now, and correct me if I'm wrong, is pretty agnostic about energy source. People are just like, how do I get the wattage? How do I get the electricity? What's the most reliable and the cheapest way that I can move energy from A to B and sell it. And so the clean energy kind of dirty energy divide within the industry isn't really a salient necessarily as it used to be. And this bill seems to be smashing both of them at the same time. So douchey. Can you walk us through a little bit about what are the key elements of the IRA that are being nuked, so to speak, by this bill? And what will the effects be on projects that are either ongoing throughout the United States or are, you know, planned for the coming years? Well, you're right on a lot of those, those points. So when you think of energy, I think you want to take a step back and see it's more of a transition than clean versus dirty or fossil. So the transition is really what is kind of getting lost in this, in this new bill. A lot of the fossil energy guys, which you Know, obviously is natural gas and coal mainly, obviously oil in there as well. They were investing a lot of time and resources to processes that would clean up their existing facilities. Existing fuel sources like carbon capture, they were transitioning to hydrogen, investing a lot of money there. So those technologies were packaged in the IRA as transitions to, to clean existing fuel sources and introduce new ones that fossil, you know, legacy fossil guys could, could participate in. Obviously the other end of the spectrum or the solar battery, wind guys, those guys are definitely a lot more advanced in, in this transition. So I don't think it's really a competition. I think it's more of this transition that is getting, I think it could be on the, you know, on the chopping block here. I'm just unsure where who wins really who, who wins in this. Whenever we're cutting these, these incentive programs because just like solar was, you know, 20, 25 years ago, we advance a lot of those technologies. But production went to China and unfortunately it looks like we might have to do the same here because they've invested in a lot of these technologies in parallel with the United States. But a lot of the production was slated to come to the United States rates for these projects because of the ira. And unfortunately, I think if we don't kind of nip this where in the Senate, a lot of these projects might end up going back to China or Europe. Yeah. And you're talking about fossil fuel projects. Right. And so that's right. If you can put up F1 here, this is the kind of the utility industry complaining. They're talking about clean energy. But if you read deeper into the story, they're talking about the entire thing. I've seen you make the point and I've seen others make it as well that in order to. We're talking about AI and other computing. Trump says everything is computer requiring something like a doubling of US Energy production over the very near term. And I've seen you and others talk about the fact that the natural gas turbines that are needed to ramp up, let's say you love natural gas, you hate clean energy, you just want to burn natural gas. The turbines needed to produce energy from it are facing something like, you tell me something like a 96 month backlog or 10 years, almost like if you wanted new ones. Can you walk us through what does it actually mean to produce this energy? Right. So these projects that the IRA kind of incentivized, they're long duration. There's a lot of engineering that goes into these projects. So even on a short scale, if you Were, you know, you didn't have these projects in development before. I mean, these are three to five year projects. So a lot of these have not hit the ground yet. It, so to speak. So in the realm of natural gas, I mean, it is, I mean, everyone's always said natural gas is a transition fuel. And in the near term, I believe we do have to ramp up natural gas with, you know, a lot of, you know, carbon capture if possible. I mean, that seems to be kind of left in the lurch now to meet these energy demands. But you know, the big, the big gas turbine manufacturers, ge, Siemens, Mitsubishi, I mean, I think on a very conservative estimate, they're, they're five years out from delivering. Even if you, I mean, then we're going back to kind of putting deposits down to get in the queue, essentially kind of what we were back in the early 2000s, the last time natural gas was, was relevant. So yeah, we're going back to the, you know, the, the five year waits and you know, if AI does ramp up aggressively, I mean, we're talking about maybe 10 years backlog. So none of these are going to happen quickly. I think everyone should understand that. I mean, you know, these big AI and data centers and crypto announcements, I think, I think everyone's a little too optimistic if they're thinking, you know, one to three years. You just, you just can't get these, these components. I mean, gas turbines are one thing. I mean, I don't know if you've heard about the transformer issues. Another, another component, key component that, you know, the, the backlog has just ramped up tremendously since COVID and doesn't look any significant, anywhere near resolving itself.

[Krystal Ball]

Now I want to roll this clip after Elon Musk who is going to be on CBS Sunday Morning this week. And they're revealing sort of teaser moments from that conversation and Musk sort of talks about the quote, unquote, big beautiful bill. In this exchange. We can go ahead and roll the clip.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You know, I was like disappointed to see the massive spending bill, frankly, which increases the budget deficit, not just decrease it and undermine the work that the Doge team is doing. I actually thought that when this big, beautiful bill came along, I mean like everything he's done on Doge gets wiped out in the first year. I think a bill can be big or it can be beautiful, but I don't know if it could be both. My personal opinion.

[Krystal Ball]

So there we have clean energy, domestic manufacturing assembly man Elon Musk looking at the big beautiful bill with a dose of realism after he spent, I guess the last six months or so in Washington, DC. So I wanted to ask, I mean, a lot of people on the right are actually criticizing the bill for not going far enough on dismantling the ira. That's something a lot of people want to see happen when it goes over to the Senate. But my understanding is also that some of what the bill does is meant to disentangle production from China and bring it back to the U.S. it sounds like the way that they're going about that. I mean, it's the foreign entity clause in the bill. It sounds like some of the way they're going about that is actually counterproductive possibly as well. Can you just kind of flesh out that dynamic for us?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I mean, it is puzzling. The intent versus the reality of it. I think it's going to be difficult to get these projects off the ground with, with those kind of last minute tweaks to that bill, especially the foreign entity, because we, we still don't make a lot of these components in the United States. Obviously we were, we were getting there, but I don't think we would have really justified making all the smaller components, maybe some of the larger components that would comprise of these projects. But it's a big hurdle. Can you, can you explain that? So the foreign entity of concern, this is basically referring to China. The bill says, correct me if I'm wrong here. The bill basically says if, if you're getting components from China or investment or, or investment. Okay. Or investment from China, then you cannot get the access to the tax credits which make the project kind of pencil out in a financial way. So as somebody who involved in the industry. Yeah. How possible would it be if you were told, okay, you want these credits, every component and all investment must come from the U.S. i guess you can get French investment, but you can't get Chinese investment. You can't have Chinese components. Could you get a project going anytime soon under those circumstances? You could get break ground, but lead times would definitely delay the project tremendously. I think another component of the kind of last minute, you know, negotiating for this bill, I think the more dangerous component is the start time. So a lot of these projects explain that. This is a really interesting component. Right. So a lot of these projects, so they didn't scrap the IRA per se, but they did put some stringent regulations like the feoc and then the start time for a lot of these projects to qualify for the incentives or, you know, 60 days from the final passage of the bill. So that's that's, that's really, you know, a killer right there. I mean, I think that would kill 99% of the projects that are slated to come. So. And you have to finish by a certain time too. Yes, you have to finish by 2028. And like I said, these, these projects are long lead time, a lot of engineering involved. And some of these projects are really relying on incentives that were finalized in January. Right. So a lot of these, you know, financial modeling, the projections, I mean, they're still in limbo. So you're not getting to a final investment decision considering the uncertainty, essentially. So even the projects that were heavily financed by, you know, let's say big oil or oil and gas or big energy companies, legacy companies, I don't see them getting, getting through, especially with the 60 day start time. I mean, we're talking about a project that it would normally go through engineering in two to three years and then saying you have to break ground 60 days after finalization of this bill. I think that's really killing all the incentives that are in the IRA to begin with.

[Krystal Ball]

So basically, if we zoom out to the broader goal of onshoring near, shoring friendshoring some of these industries, the bill, I guess is from that perspective then actually kind of hurting its own goal or undermining its own goal. If it is onshoring near, shoring friendshoring. Because maybe the ultimate goal or the less honest goal is just to hurt the industries, period, the clean energy industries, period. What do you make of what the. We were talking earlier about who benefits. What is the actual end goal, do you think, based on what's in the bill?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, I mean, that's, that's, that's the confusion I have for sure. I don't know who benefits. I think a lot of the, the, the benefits that we've already seen from the IRA have benefited a lot of the Republican states and Republican districts. I mean, maybe to the tune of, you know, 70 or to 80% of the jobs created are going to those districts. And we're talking about hundreds of thousands of jobs here and some of those plants that relied on those incentives may lose them and close. So I mean, it's really confusing to me. Who benefits? I mean, it's tough because obviously we're talking about a lot of new projects in addition to the ones that already opened. So I mean, we're talking about hundreds of thousands more jobs going to a lot of districts. So it's confusing to me what, you know, who wins. I mean, people I don't know if it's a zero sum game, I mean, I think everyone can benefit from this, but I think everyone could lose too. Right. So I don't think there's, there's any clear winners to me. And for people who want to read more about that, we can put up F3. You can find this piece. Ducky had recommended this at Latitude Media. As you're talking, I wonder if the answer to this question of who benefits, ironically might be China. If you want to develop these both clean energy projects and also projects that are making fossil fuel energy cleaner, it seems like the place that is making that possible after this would be China. And it seems like the bill is really. If you wanted to write a bill to basically stop the development and production of energy in the United States, you couldn't do much better than the way this bill is currently written. Well, that's what it seems like. I mean, just like I mentioned with the solar industry 20 years, we did a lot of development in national labs and then we sent all the manufacturing to China. I mean, it's unfortunate, but, yeah, I think they're pretty happy about the prospects of this. Yeah. And China doesn't even have much of a lobbying operation in the US like basically zero. And they're getting a bill. They don't really need lobbying that's just straight up written for them. It's amazing.

[Krystal Ball]

We'll see, we'll see what the Senate does.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's very confusing. It's very confusing. Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. The Senate, I think, is going to have some real tweaks to this part.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Because North Carolina and Doug, you might know. Last question for you. You might know a little bit about this. North Carolina senators I know are both concerned about what this is doing to Solarc because North Carolina has become one of the kind of leading builders of solar energy. And now this is going to take a sledgehammer to that. And it's an industry that supports Republicans and hires Republicans to work in it. So you've got, you got North Carolina, maybe you've got some Texas, which has a lot of energy production, including clean energy production. Do you have a sense Georgia is the big one? Yeah, Georgia as well. Do you have a sense of. Although I guess Democrats are there. Are there Republicans who might have the strength to push back on this? I hope so. I mean, I don't know if a lot of your viewers knew. I mean, there was a letter that a lot of Republicans drafted, 20 some odd, you know, senators and House members supporting, you know, the, the, the benefits of the IRA. Unfortunately, 20 of those house members kind of signed on to this last minute. So hopefully the senators kind of have a little more influence on this and don't have. Will have the right kind of influence essentially, to support their.

[Krystal Ball]

Their constituents, or we'll see them go.

[Sagar Enjeti]

In another direction and just support China. What are you guys doing?

[Krystal Ball]

We hope not A lot to be determined in the next month.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's an incredible watch. Ducky Huong, founder of the energy company C Minus, thanks for bringing us up to speed on this. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. All right. Be well. Honestly, I don't get it. What are you all doing?

[Krystal Ball]

Look at me. What do I have to do?

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is your responsibility. I was.

[Krystal Ball]

This is my responsibility.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You need to clean this up. It's insane. And his point about how we developed the solar industry in the 90s, 2000s, and because it's associated with hippies or whatever, and it was manufacturing, we just shipped it off to China. And now look how that's working out. And now here we are 20 years later, doing the exact same thing.

[Krystal Ball]

Listen, I'm all for innovation in the renewable energy sector because it gets you off the grid, gets you. You don't have to worry about the government controlling your energy sources.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And a lot of what his company does or his companies that he's founded over the years, like I was saying, it takes waste products and they take fossil fuels and they try to reduce the carbon emissions and the pollution related to it. Acknowledging. Which the left doesn't really like to do, acknowledging that fossil fuels are going to be here for a very long time. And if they are getting burned, how do we reduce the emissions and pollution from them in the meantime, all that, that entire industry being built up, it's just gonna go to China.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, on the other hand, and.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Like with the transformers, without the transformers, you don't have energy production, which. You know what? This AI sucks. So if these goons don't have enough juice for their AI. Fine, good.

[Krystal Ball]

Find it in the sun.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Except they're gonna win. You're gonna get rolling blackouts. Their AI is going to get the energy.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, that's true. On the other hand, the IRA was grifty. I mean, you had John Podesta overseeing the longtime lobbyist overseeing the distribution.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, no, Tony Podesta is the lobbyist.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, he was. I mean, John Podesta was a lobbyist as well.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Who did he lobby for?

[Krystal Ball]

The Podesta Group.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, no, that's Tony Podesta.

[Krystal Ball]

No, back in the 90s.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Oh, in the 90s.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, but I mean, I know back.

[Sagar Enjeti]

In the 90s I thought he's always.

[Krystal Ball]

Been, I think the Podesta group was founded like late 80s, early 90s.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Anyway, was John Podesta. I mean he was always. Anyway, we can look up John, the.

[Krystal Ball]

Producers literally got in our ear, just out and like cut it up.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Tony Podesta is this scuzzy lobbyist.

[Krystal Ball]

Tony Podesta is definitely a scuzzy lobbyist. But anyway, they put John Podesta in charge of distributing some of the ira. All that is to say, we will see what happens when the bill goes to the Senate. Republicans want more cuts, but of course they also want to undermine China and, and nearshore and reshore all of these wonderful industries. So good luck to them also while keeping Elon Musk happy and having a tiny margin in the House and actually the Senate as well. And by the way, they also think they need this to augment the tariff policy. So best of luck to the GOP and to all of us really, who will have to be dealing with the consequences.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. So dumb. So dumb.

[Krystal Ball]

Stay tuned here to Breaking Points for all of the details. BreakingPoints.com for a premium subscription, we will be doing a Friday show this week, AMA right now.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right?

[Krystal Ball]

Right. Ama. AMA is coming right up.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You only get to participate in that if you are a supporter of our journalism by going to breakingpoints.com and becoming a paying subscriber.

[Krystal Ball]

Same if you want to watch the second half of the Friday shows. So breakingpoints.com head on over. We'll see you if you're sticking around for the AMA in just a bit.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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