5/4/26: Oil Spikes Amid Hormuz Chaos, US Bases Damaged By Iran, Spirit Airlines Goes Bankrupt

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode Summary – May 4, 2026

Main Themes:

• Dramatic escalation in the Gulf amid US–Iran tensions, with naval incidents and oil market turmoil
• Analysis of US and Iranian strategic postures, and shifts in the global perception of American power
• The collapse of Spirit Airlines and its wider economic causes and consequences

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the rapidly intensifying situation in the Strait of Hormuz and the broader Middle East crisis with Iran, U.S. military bases being damaged, and surging oil prices. The hosts break down competing claims from Iran and the U.S., Trump’s controversial announcements, and the evolving strategic realities highlighted by guest Dr. Trita Parsi. The conversation then pivots to the economic and industry fallout, spotlighting Spirit Airlines' sudden collapse and the wider implications for air travel, inflation, and the ongoing Iran war’s effect on global economics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Hormuz Crisis: Claims, Counterclaims, and “Project Freedom”

[03:12 - 09:31]

• Fast-moving reports:
  • Iranian state media claims IRGC hit US warship with two missiles near Jask Island; US officials deny any ships have been struck.
  • UAE claims one of its oil tankers was targeted and hit while transiting the Strait of Hormuz.
• US response:
  • US changes rules of engagement, authorizing forces to target immediate threats in the strait, including IRGC fast boats and missile positions.
• Trump's announcement:
  • Trump claims US will “guide” ships through the strait, but clarification emerges—no military escort, just providing navigational advice or maps.

"You assume US naval and perhaps air assets are going to be utilized to ensure their safety. But pretty quickly after that, we got word that, no, no, no, we're not going to use any US military assets, we're going to just tell ships they can go through and give them some indication of what we think would be a safe path."
—Krystal Ball [06:55]

• Oil Markets:
  • Oil and gas prices have surged to historic highs ($4.45/gallon average, one of the largest single-week gains ever).
  • Markets responding in real time to both rumors and confirmed events.

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2. Fast Analysis with Dr. Trita Parsi (Quincy Institute)

The Strategic Picture & Negotiations

[12:47 - 39:28]

a. Trump’s Blockade and “Silver Bullet” Policy Failures
[13:13 - 15:03]

• The much-hyped Trump blockade failed to weaken Iran’s economy as predicted, highlighting overestimated US leverage.
• US Navy kept its distance out of fear of Iranian missile capabilities.
• Trump's attempts to project strength (“reopening the Strait”) often followed by rapid de-escalation—indicative of lack of viable escalatory options.

"Once again, another one of his silver bullets, this blockade ended up backfiring on him rather than being this type of a quick fix that would have...forced Iranians to capitulate."
—Dr. Trita Parsi [22:01]

b. Iran’s Negotiation Position and Intentions [16:09 - 19:56]

• Iran’s public negotiating positions: seeking withdrawal of US forces, lifting blockades, ending sanctions, reparations, and an end to the war on all fronts.
• Reports of a possible 15-year delay on enrichment are likely exaggerated, but Iran open to limited “needs-based” enrichment for reactors (which, in practice, means little or no enrichment during the Trump administration).
• Iran is NOT just seeking a ceasefire, but a “grand bargain” to end systemic hostility with the US, involving Israel and regional proxies.
• Many Iranian demands are non-starters for the US; little real movement in talks increases risk for further military escalation.

c. Risks and Motivations behind US Moves [19:56 - 22:06]

• Why did Trump signal new guidance for ships?
  • Possible market manipulation to influence oil prices
  • Theoretical “Gulf of Tonkin” type event to manufacture public justification for escalation
• Hosts debate whether the White House actually needs a pretext for war, considering US history.

d. Influence of US “Pro-War” Think Tanks [22:06 - 24:22]

• Trump administration using Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD) graphics and staffers—a think tank explicitly described as “the most pro-war in Washington” and closely aligned with Israeli interests.
• This realignment further limits diplomatic space, prioritizing pressure and escalation over resolution.

e. The Shattering of US Military Superiority and Implications for World Order [24:22 - 28:33]

• Dr. Parsi’s article argues the war has shattered the “illusion of US military supremacy,” undermining confidence in American security guarantees—especially among GCC (Gulf Cooperation Council) states.
• Unlike the Iraq War, the US neither achieved its objectives nor even prevailed militarily; costs and consequences are global (e.g., widespread fuel shortages, soaring prices).
• This is accelerating the world toward multipolarity, with China openly defying US sanctions and signaling a readiness to protect its interests against US enforcement.

“The Chinese now coming out and saying they're no longer going to be respecting US sanctions ... It's a direct consequence of how badly this war has gone. And I think that's just the beginning of the global repercussions we're going to see.”
—Dr. Trita Parsi [28:04]

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3. Damage to US Bases and GCC Fracturing

[31:37 - 39:25]

• US Bases Struck in the Gulf:
  • CNN audio (paraphrased): El Udeid Air Base in Qatar struck twice; substantial damage, minimal casualties due to prior evacuation.
  • Iran’s enhanced satellite capabilities now allow near real-time, high-res targeting, closing the previous US tech advantage.
  • Repeated denials by US officials about extent of damage underscore lack of transparency.

“Many of these countries who have benefited from the US security umbrella ... Now they have seen that that security was a bit of an illusion.”
—Dr. Trita Parsi [34:52]

• GCC Divisions Exposed:
  • UAE vs. Saudi Arabia: UAE hit hardest by Iranian strikes, damaging both economy and “elite playground” image; Saudi Arabia relatively spared, likely for future relationship-building.
  • GCC political entity described as “if not dead, about to go toward its death,” due to diverging threat perceptions and alliances, especially UAE’s close ties with Israel.
  • Likely reduction in US base presence in region over the next five to ten years, as securing basing rights becomes politically and financially more difficult.

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4. Spirit Airlines’ Collapse: Anatomy of a Death Spiral

[42:05 - 57:02]

• The End of Spirit Airlines:
  • Sudden bankruptcy, ceasing of all operations, stranding passengers—unprecedented in US aviation.
  • Political blame game: Trump administration blames Biden antitrust enforcement for blocking the JetBlue-Spirit merger; others cite deregulation, corporate gamesmanship, and US-Iran conflict.

"The Iran war is what actually put the bullet in their head. But obviously they were dying, bleeding out for many years."
—Sagar Enjeti [44:35]

• Wider Forces at Play:
  • “Spirit Effect”: Spirit’s presence forced legacy carriers to keep fares lower; their exit will let prices for basic economy climb nationwide.
  • Big carriers (Delta, United, American) allegedly lobbied against a Spirit bailout, to remove aggressive low-cost competition.
  • Jet fuel costs:
    • Just two days ago, filling a Boeing 777 cost $213k in Chicago, up to $225k in Seattle—double previous prices, thanks to the Iran war’s oil squeeze.
  • International repercussions:
    • Air India cut all international flights through July; UK and European carriers relaxing rules to manage capacity; Dubai airport passenger volume down 20%.
    • Krystal Ball: “This is just the first of many, many impacts that we are already seeing ripple throughout our economy and the global economy.” [56:28]

"Does this mean $800 or $1,000 intra–East Coast summer fares? I think it does... You're just not going to be able to fly anymore."
—Sagar Enjeti [52:43]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On US Military Illusions:

  • “The utility of American coercive power has really been denied here.”
    — Dr. Trita Parsi [26:34]

• Reality for the Gulf Allies:

  • "Now they have seen that that security was a bit of an illusion and many of them are going to be asked to pay for the rebuilding of these bases. And I'm not so sure that they will." — Dr. Trita Parsi [34:52]

• On Airline Deregulation and the "Spirit Effect":

  • “When they would begin flying a certain route, every other carrier knew they had to reduce their price. And so with them gone, now their hand is freed.”
    — Krystal Ball [53:57]

• On the Broader Mood:

  • "What has been happening in this country since 2020, every year it gets worse. Housing, food, things more expensive. It's just like everything has more friction. Has it really gotten better?... it's just nothing is simple."
    — Sagar Enjeti [57:12]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:12: Situation Brief—Hormuz escalates, competing claims, oil spikes
• 12:47: Dr. Trita Parsi joins for Iran crisis breakdown
• 13:13: Why the blockade failed and Trump’s desperation
• 16:09: Detailed analysis of Iran’s negotiation stance
• 22:06: FDD’s influence and hawkish staff shaping US policy
• 24:22: “Illusion of US military supremacy” – global strategic consequences
• 31:37: US Gulf bases hit; CNN report on American strategic vulnerability
• 34:52: GCC fracturing, UAE v. Saudi, future of US bases
• 42:05: Spirit Airlines bankruptcy—industry dynamics and Iran war link
• 44:35: Multi-factorial explanation for Spirit’s death spiral
• 49:51: Jet fuel cost breakdown—the oil crunch’s direct impact
• 53:28: Global and domestic air travel disruptions, “Spirit Effect” explained
• 56:28: The ripple effects of the Iran crisis begin

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Episode Tone & Language

The tone is urgent, detail-oriented, and unsparing. Both hosts deploy sharp, accessible analysis, often referencing insider reporting and economic data. Dr. Parsi brings gravitas and a strategic perspective, while the hosts’ candid, at times sardonic, commentary (especially on US policy and airlines) adds color and blunt realism.

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Summary Takeaways

• The US–Iran conflict is at a volatile new peak, transforming the regional order and sending shockwaves through global markets and military strategy.
• The US has lost its aura of military invincibility—friends and foes are adjusting accordingly, with GCC countries fracturing and China asserting economic independence.
• The collapse of Spirit Airlines is a direct artifact of broader economic turmoil, deregulation, and the war's impact on jet fuel prices—symbolic of growing dysfunction and monopolization in US life.
• The escalation in the Gulf is just the start of potentially profound and lasting economic and geopolitical shifts.

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Those seeking to grasp the stakes behind the headlines on the US-Iran standoff, Middle Eastern realignment, and the “ripple effects” hitting ordinary American wallets will find this episode essential listening.

Transcript

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Visit your nearby lowes.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Hey guys. Sagar and Krystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com Good morning everybody. Happy Monday. I have an amazing show for everybody today.

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

What do we have?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Crystal?

[Krystal Ball]

Indeed we do. Fast moving developments this morning. Claims and counterclaims from the Iranians and the Americans. We do know the US Is announcing new rules of engagement to target Iranian ships. We also have Trump saying we're going to guide ships through the Strait of Four. News that apparently just meant like giving them a map or something of that nature. Anyway, Trita Parsi is going to join us to let us know as best we can tell where we are this morning, where things are likely to be headed, what the Iranians position is at this point. We're also going to take a look at the way the Gulf Arab countries are reacting. They are in crisis, increasingly divided. Spirit Airlines is dead, complete competing claims there about what exactly happened. Israel is applying the Gaza model to Lebanon. There might be a secret Jeffrey Epstein suicide note that we're just learning about now. And economics professor Richard Wolff is going to join us to talk about the global economic impacts of the Iran war, in particular this move that China just made where they said effectively like no, we're not going to comply with US Sanctions, which is kind of a first. It's a significant step on their part. So interested to hear from him the significance that he finds in their actions there.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's right. Thank you to everybody subscribing to the show breaking points.com we are doing our AMA live today from the studio. That's all I can tease for, right? I don't have any exclusive thoughts, let's say on marijuana that you may be able to hear. Thank you to everybody who has been subscribing also to our YouTube channel. We deeply appreciate it. If you're listening to this on a podcast, please Share an episode with a friend really helps other people find the show. But let's go ahead and start. Very fast moving developments with Iran. We've already added multiple different ones. It's not even 8am here in the east coast.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah as I was coming in like texting, I gotta put this in the show. So Iran is claiming that they stopped a US Warship from from entering the Straight over can put this up from Sky News. They are claiming and this is from State news Persian media in Iran. Two missiles hit a US Warship near Jask island after ignoring Iranian warnings. Again according to state media there in Iran. US is already out denying this. CENTCOM putting out a statement we can put up on the screen claim Iranian state media claims that Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps hit a US Warship with two missiles. Truth no US Navy ships have been struck. US Forces are supporting Project Freedom and enforcing the naval blockade on Iranian ports. So that's as much as we know about that at this point and I'm sure eventually we will learn who is telling the truth in this particular scenario. We can also put the next one up on the screen. This is from the uae. They are claiming that one of their carriers, one of their oil tankers was targeted and struck while trying to transit the Strait of Hormuz. So we have that development as well. In addition, this part is solid in terms of the US Position. We can put Barack Ravid's latest report here up on the screen. US Official saying that the rules of engagement for US Forces in the region have been changed and they were authorized to strike immediate threats against ships that cross the strait like irgc, fast boats or Iranian missile positions. So all of these things point in the same direction of increasing escalatory situation, very fraught, very dangerous where the Iranians are claiming they struck a US warship. The US Is saying we will hit your ships if you try to impede any ships that are transiting the Strait of Hormuz and Sagar. This comes on the heels of this Trump truth. This is a one guys. We can put this up on the screen where he is claiming that the US Is going to guide this is his language going to guide helpful free up ships which are locked in the Strait of Hormuz and guide them through the ship for the good of Iran, the Middle east and the United States. We have told these countries we will guide their ships safely out of these restricted waterways so they can freely and ably get on with their business. He goes on to say a lot of other things as well, but that's Sort of the primary piece that he's putting out here. And immediately soccer courses raised like, well, what do you mean by that? When you hear that language, you're going to guide them through. You assume U.S. naval and perhaps air assets are going to be utilized to ensure their safety. But pretty quickly after that, we got word that, no, no, no, we're not going to use any U.S. military assets. We're going to just tell ships they can go through and give them some indication of what we think would be a safe path.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Exactly right. Let's put a 0D guys on the screen. Also, what we added this morning, they are now saying that the rules of engagement for US forces in the region have now been changed and they were authorized to strike immediate threats against ships that cross the strai, IRGC fast boats or Iranian missile positions. However, these officials are clarifying that ships will not be actually escorting these tankers through the Straits of Hormuz. Remember, Trump's truth makes clear that this is about neutral countries who have been not affected and or involved in the war and that they would basically be given like a map of where they think that there are mines being able to go through. Again, this is all very, very fast moving as of this morning, but that's where things currently stand. The oil markets are going w all just in the last two hour initially late last night, Sunday, they opened 2% down. At one point they were 5% up on the claim that a warship hit and then it went down a little bit. Still remains very, very high. I think before we bring in Treat to Parsi, we just wanna emphasize all of this chaos is exactly why the price of oil remains where it's at. It's why today, as of this morning, gas price national is around $4.45 per gallon, a 30 cent increase in a and in fact one of the largest single week gains in modern American history. Trump is trying his best. That's why that announcement, that truth was put out right before the Brent crude market was to open. And it did initially work, however, showing that it basically fell apart within hours after things started going kinetic in the Straits of Hormuz, which just highlights the absolute insanity of all of this. So this is a kind of a little news briefing that we've been able to do, but we do have Treata Parsi standing by.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, and one last piece before I do bring in Treata, we can put a 1B up on the screen. Just the Iranian response here. They're saying they reject any attempt. They told Jeremy Scahill this to alter quote, current conditions in these Strait of Hormuz will respond forcefully to President Trump's so called Project Freedom. And they go on to say any commercial vessel attempting to transit through designated restricted routes with without prior coordination will be promptly intercepted by Iranian forces. Sounds like this morning they may be making good on that if the information coming from the UAE is in fact correct. So with all of that being said, to analyze where we are, we're going to go ahead and bring in Trita Parsi of the Quincy Institute.

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[Krystal Ball]

Dr. Parsi, great to see you.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Good to see you, sir.

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

Good to see you guys.

[Krystal Ball]

So I just laid out a whole bunch of things. We've got these competing claims this morning with the UAE saying that one of their tankers was. We have the US Saying they're changing the rules of engagement. This of course, all comes on the heels of Trump posting that we're going to guide ships from the Strait of Hormuz. But it turns out that just means, like, give them a map. What do you make of all of these fast breaking developments?

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

Let me first start off by saying that according to the foundation for Defense of Democracies, the Iranian economy should have collapsed about 10 days ago thanks to the blockade that Trump imposed. We're now 10 days past that deadline and instead we're seeing this. That tells you quite a lot about what this blockade really was. What another illusionary silver bullet that Trump in his desperation accepted. It frankly, worsened his own situation. And now we're in a situation in which he is saying that he's going to be guiding. And as you guys pointed out in your opening, completely unclear exactly what that means. But what I think we can say is this. Throughout the war, the U.S. navy kept itself about 3,000 kilometers away from the Iranian shorelines precisely because of the concern that the Iranians would have missiles that could strike these ships and potentially even sink a major American warship. And in order to avoid any American casualties, the Navy kept itself at that length. That also complicated the flight sorties in the sense that a lot of refueling was needed to be done mid air because of the fact the aircraft carriers were so far away from Iranian shorelines. Now Trump apparently is telling us that he doesn't care about American casualties because he's now suddenly going to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. And then immediately afterwards, he starts backing down. I think what we're seeing here is the desperation that yet another silver bullet did not prove to be a silver bullet. It was just another regular bullets sold by the Israelis and their allies in Washington that have just deepened the crisis for Trump and he is increasingly desperate. There is a diplomatic way out, but it will not work unless Trump drops his maximalist Israeli positions in these negotiations.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Let's go to a four Dr. Parsi to get your react. This was the initial Truth Social post over the weekend. Trump says, I will be soon reviewing the plan Iran has just sent to us, but we can't imagine it would be acceptable in that they have not yet paid a big enough price for what they have done to humanity and the world over the last 47 years. The details of the plan that we know of. A five, please. And this is what in particular what we want. Your reaction to this is the Iranian demand withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iran's surroundings, lifting the naval blockade, lifting sanctions, release of Iran's frozen assets, paying compensation, ending the war on all fronts. However, there was some reporting as well that they had actually agreed to some sort of a 15 year enrichment delay. So your reaction here to their combination of demands and willing to move on nuclear enrichment, which ultimately, like you said, if this is to end, it will end this way. What do you make of Iran's positions here? Are they loosening up a bit? Are they showing some signs of openness or are we still in a total stalemate?

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

So almost all of the different variations of the proposal that has been circulating in the media have been denied one way or another by the Iranians. Some of it I do think are true, some of it probably is not. The 15 year moratorium as it was phrased in the Al Jazeera read out of it I found very unlikely in Geneva. What the Iranians had agreed to through the Omanis was that there would be enrichment only on a needs basis, meaning that if there was a need for fuel pads for a reactor, that's when they would enrich. They would only enriched for two specific reactors, the TRR in Tehran and a new reactor that doesn't even go online for another seven years. The TRR already has fuel pads for five to seven years, which would in essence mean the Iranians would not be enriching any uranium for the next five to seven years, which would be the duration of the Trump administration some more. And that was the face saving exit for Trump. He would be able to say that there will be zero enrichment during his presidency because of this formula. Now, could that formula be extended to 15 years? There's pathways to that. You could either have Russia, France provide these fuel pads up front and have a guaranteed supply for the Iranians for the next 15 years. And as a result, the formula would still stand. It would just extend to 15 years. You could take the 60% enriched uranium and down blend it to 19.75% and turn that into fuel pads. So there are pathways in which you can actually extend the timeline to 15 years. But whether they have agreed to that or not, it's unclear. But more than anything else, it will not be called the moratorium, because it will essentially be something that is on that needs basis. But nevertheless, the bigger point that I think is coming through, despite which variation of the deal you're looking at, is that the Iranians are no longer looking for a ceasefire or even an end to this conflict. They're essentially putting forward a grand bargain, something that ends 47 years of US Iran enmity that encompasses the entire region. It includes Israel, it includes America's proxy Israel, as well as Iran's proxies, if you want to use that language. None of them can engage in any more warfare. That means an end to attacks in Gaza, an end to attacks in Lebanon, but in return, they're offering some of these nuclear things. But they will also ask for a tremendous amount of sanctions relief. Now, a lot of this, of course, the Iranians know, are negotiation bids that will not be accepted by the U.S. i cannot see any scenario in which the United States will agree to pay reparations to Iran, or that it even will leave the region militarily as a request of an Iranian demand. I think it should leave the region because of US interests, but that's different from doing so because the Iranians are requesting it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

In it.

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

What worries me more than anything else is that when you at least take a look at these public versions of these negotiations, there doesn't seem to have been much movement. And as long as there's not much movement, that's when we see the higher likelihood of some sort of a confrontation. Trump getting frustrated and starting to talk about the kind of things that he wants to do in the straight of hormones, et cetera. And the risk for military confrontation renewing significantly goes up, and time is running out. At the end of the day, this current situation cannot last forever. We just found out yesterday Kuwait has not exported a single barrel of oil for 30 days now, has not happened in 30 years. Asian countries are suffering tremendously. This is something that we're paying very little attention to in the United States that other countries are paying a much, much higher economic cost than the US is.

[Krystal Ball]

Dr. Parsi, I'm curious for your view on what do you think Trump was up to with this tweet about we're gonna guide the ships through the Strait of Form. Is this just market manipulation? Do you think he's trying to provoke a confrontation? That was something that Professor Robert Pape had floated, that they could be trying to set up some sort of Gulf of Tonkin situation because they want to go back to the war, but they want the Iranians to be perceived as the aggressor. When I was discussing this in our group chat, Ryan said, well, when have we ever need an excuse to go back to war? Seems like they just restart the war if they wanted to. In any case, what do you think is the gambit here from Trump?

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

To me, this reminds me very much of what happened when he started saying that he's going to attack the oil facilities at Kharg Island. And there was all of this buzz about how dangerous that would be for the Iranians, what a significant setback that would be for their oil industry. All of that. True. And then what did he end up doing? He struck the island, but he made sure that none of the missiles got anywhere near the oil facilities. Instead, he struck some military facilities on that island. So what happened in that situation was that it became very clear to Trump he doesn't have these escalatory options at his disposal because the Iranians have escalation dominance. If he had struck those oil facilities, the Iranians would have struck all of the oil facilities in the GCC countries, including the ones that can be used to sidestep the Strait of Hormuz. And that would dramatically increase oil prices, not just immediately, but in the long run, because it would take years to rebuild that infrastructure for oil. And as a result, he backed off. Seems to me that again, he issued some threat or he had some plan in which he wanted to go all out, and then once it came to the implementation, he backs down. Once it comes to what happens after that tweet, he backs down even further. It's a sign of his desperation because as I said earlier on, once again, another one of his silver bullets, this blockade ended up backfiring on him rather than being this type of a quick fix that would have turned the tables and forced Iranians to capitulate.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right. You made a earlier point about fdd, and I do feel like it's important to say, can we put a 8 up there on the screen, the Trump administration is now openly using fdd. Graphics about enriched uranium stockpiles. And look, you know, to not get too inside baseball, but FDD is probably the most pro war think tank here in Washington, I would say. I don't even think they would necessarily disagree with me on that. In addition to being very allied, I guess you could say, with the Israeli government's interests. So it is pretty clear here, especially also with the more recent news that Steve Witkoff has just had somebody join him who previously also worked at fdd, where, look, personnel is policy in many ways. And the people who are being empowered in this current moment all seem to be of the much more hawkish variety.

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

Absolutely. And I think, first of all, I think you made FDD's day by calling them the most pro war think tank in Washington, D.C. that is a compliment in their word.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I don't think they would have disagreed.

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

And it is absolutely correct. And one of the things that is quite fascinating is that in the beginning of Trump 2's administration, we did not have anyone from FTD in the administration. It was a sign that some of the efforts to keep the neocons out of the administration had been successful. There had been some, of course, but not any FDD staffers because during Trump 1, there were FDD staffers that were in the White House, in the NSC while still being on FTD's payroll. Whether that was ethical or even legal is unclear to me. But nevertheless, it's a rather unusual situation that you have someone working at the N. At the NSC and still being on the payroll of its previous advocacy organization. So the fact that Trump is increasingly going in this direction is also a reason as to why he's stuck. Because the entire objective of the Israelis and its pro Israel allies in Washington D.C. has not to be to resolve the situation. It is to make sure that this war gets prolonged and that at a minimum, the US Never lifts any sanctions, never lifts any of the pressure on Iran, regardless of what that pressure costs the US or the global economy.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's talk a little bit more about what that pressure is costing the US and new realities that have been established. You just had a fantastic piece. This is a two guys that we can put up on the screen. Your headline here is Trump's war has destroyed the illusion of US Military supremacy for countries that depend on US Military protection. This should be a wake up call. And while we're very much in a. You know, it's hard to see exactly how this conflict is going to end and what the terms of the deal are going to be, etcetera, etcetera. You're pointing to some realities that have been established here, some sort of genies that are out of the bottle, that are not going to be put back in. In terms of the perception of the US military and its ability to assert its dominance wherever and whatever it wants. To break down a little bit of the thesis of your piece and what the implications are.

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

Yeah, what I write is I think that this war and the manner in which it has evolved, and in many ways at this point it is a strategic defeat for the United States, is a wake up call in terms of whether the US's grand strategy of liberal hegemony and primacy on a global scale any longer is actually feasible. Because much of the conversation so far has been that the US's domination in the region is going to come to an end, that many of the GCC countries are no longer going to rely on an America's secure umbrella that really proved to be not only unreliable but ineffective in this war. But I think he actually goes beyond that. First of all, if we compare the depth of this disaster to that of the Iraq War, I think this one goes further because at least in the Iraq War, the United States won the war in three weeks. The US's military dominance was never in question. Moreover, the United States also achieved its political objective of getting rid of Saddam Hussein. That too has not been achieved in the Iran case. The Iranian regime is still there. In many ways it seems to be much stronger than what it was before. And on top of, Iranians have at a minimum, denied the U.S. a victory and at a maximum scored a strategic victory against the United States. So this goes much beyond the type of a debacle that Iraq was. But moreover, the global consequences are far beyond that as well. You never saw the Iraq war cause famine or fuel shortages or gas prices going up in an uncontrollable way in the manner that this war has now already caused on a global scale. And the US is, as we have discussed already, now incapable of even coming up with some ideas of how to be able to fix this using its coercive power. So the utility of American coercive power has really been denied here. It's a combination of the Iranians using new technology, drones, missiles, as well as geography, of course. But even if you don't have something as strategically viable as the Strait of Hormuz, or vital as Strait of Hormuz, you can still use the terrain as a way of denying victory for a much stronger military power. That's what the Ukrainians have done. So I think going forward, this is going to really raise questions as to whether the United States can pursue global primacy any longer, because that was based on the idea that the United States can fight two major wars on two continents at the same time. We have not been able to fight this war on one continent successfully. And this is, I think, going to end up becoming an inflection point, one in which we are going to move much faster towards multipolarity than we were on. We were already on that trajectory. This sped it up even further, and one sign of it is something I think you all just mentioned earlier on in the show, which is the Chinese now coming out and saying they're no longer going to be respecting U.S. sanctions and that if the United States actually goes after any Chinese ships that have been carrying Iranian oil or any oil from the Persian Gulf, the Chinese are not going to accept. Whereas reality is, up until now, the Chinese more or less have. They have been abiding by US sanctions. And now 10 days or so before Trump is supposed to show up in Beijing, the Chinese changed their rules of the game. It's a direct consequence of how badly this war has gone. And I think that's just the beginning of the global repercussions we're going to see.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

let's turn now to the Gulf countries and also to the bases of hours which were hit. We have a CNN report here which details much of this. A 10. Let's take a listen to get a

[CNN Reporter]

sense of just how vulnerable US Facilities have become. Have a look at this. This it's the war room at Qatar's El Adeid air Base, the theater command and control hub for US air power across 21 nations struck not just once, but Twice and according to a US source, causing significant damage. The base had been largely evacuated at this point and no casualties were reported. Iran's visibility over its targets has never been clearer. In 2024, according to the Financial Times, Tehran secretly acquired a Chinese satellite known as the Tee 01B, a massive upgrade from its own satellites. That means that Tehran went from looking at images of this quality to this. This is the first time America has fought an adversary with satellites that capture high res imagery almost as detailed as its own. As the scale of the damage comes into focus, many will wonder whether America's presence wants a protective shield in the Middle. Middle east has turned into its Achilles heel.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This really highlights your point, sir, which is not only about the diminishing of US military might and the ability even to project power, but to have these, you know, rock star installations which have taken immense damage in only a 38 day period, as you said, would be equivalent of not defeating Saddam in the whatever 30 days that it took in the opening days of the Iraq war. It just seems as this continues to be even more of a grand strategic defeat for the United States.

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

Certainly. And I think it raises another element here which was hinted at in the CNN report, which is quite extraordinary. But he also tells us how much misinformation we have gotten from the US Government during the war in which all of these things were being denied and massive exaggerations of how much the Iranians suffered military setbacks. It is the fact that now we're going to be in a scenario in which many of these countries who have benefited from the US security umbrella, who have wanted the security umbrella, who have lobbied for it and who have lobbied against restrainers in Washington for more than a decade. Restrainers who wanted to see a different approach to security, who wanted to see a withdrawal of many and closure of many of these different bases or at least handing over the responsibility of security to these different states that was always being pushed back in us not only by the military industrial complex, but also by many of these allies who very much benefited from free riding on American security. Now they have seen that that security was a bit of an illusion and many of them are going to be asked to pay for the rebuilding of these bases. And I'm not so sure that they will. I wouldn't be surprised if many of these bases, not all, will actually essentially be phased out. And that then means that the push against this grand strategy of liberal hegemony and this total military dominance of the is not just going to come from the American public, but Also slowly from some of these very same allies who once benefited from it, who once lobbied for it, they're going to turn against it as well because it proved to be unreliable and ineffective.

[Krystal Ball]

There also appears to be a growing split among some of these nations. We can put a 12 up on the screen. This is from Axios, but I know you've been discussing this as well. The year that shook the Gulf. The UAE is leaving opec. Saudi Arabia is ending its splashiest foreign sports venture. The two US allies are in the midst of a messy divor force even as both face fire from Iran. So can you talk also about, you know, I think I read an analysis that Saudi Arabia so far actually economically had benefited from the war because they're benefiting from this premium price that they're able to sell oil from. Uae, on the other hand, has been, you know, very economically damaged by the war. And certainly their brand as, you know, a playground for a global elite has been very much damaged. So can you talk about those dynamics?

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

I think the GCC as a political entity is, if not dead, about to essentially go towards its death. It is a security organization that was set up in the early 1980s in response to a specific geopolitical situation at the time, which was that these smaller six GCC states, although Saudi Arabia is not small, felt a greater threat from Iraq and from Iran at the time. So, so notably Iran and Iraq are not part of this organization. But that again was based on a common security imperative and a common security threat perception at the time that is no longer the case. It's not that Iran is not seen as a threat, but the approach of how to deal with Iran is dramatically different. And UAE has turned into a complete Israeli ally. And many of these states in the GCC view Israel as a greater threat than Iran. And on top of that also believe that the UAE's alliance with Israel has actually undermined the broader security of the Persian Gulf as a whole. So we're seeing these splits and on top of that there's egos, there's economic competition, there's competition in the Horn of Africa. There's a lot of different things that have been tearing these different countries in a different direction. And the Iran war has now really put that to the fore. We have seen that the Iranians struck at the UAE much, much harder than they did against any of the other countries. And they also actually spared Saudi Arabia tremendously in that war, which clearly was an indication of the Iranians wanting to keep the pathway open for some sort of a more positive relationship with Saudi Arabia after the war. So whereas when it comes to the uae, they struck them much harder, largely as a punishment for the UAE being so close to Israel. And if Trump restarts the war, incidentally, I think one of the things we will see is not only that there will be again this horizontal escalation by the Iranians, but I suspect that there will be even more of a laser focus on the UAE because now the Iranians are going to try to drive an even deeper wedge between the UAE and some of the other GCC countries.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It makes sense. It actually fits with the news this morning. The ADNOC carrier that was struck, the Abu Dhabi National Oil Corporation tanker, which was struck by the Iranians this morning, that's been confirmed by the government of the uae. And the UAE has been the most belligerent in the United nations and other places in calling for direct military escalation against Iran. Now, that's actually kind of my last question here is when we see this fracture within the Middle east and these alliances in these countries between Oman, the UAE and Saudi Arabia, what do you expect the ability for US Bases to even be present in the country, even to be after this conflict is settled? Let's say we don't voluntarily do it. But what if those countries, countries themselves, say, hey, we don't want these bases in our countries anymore?

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

I think most of the countries will diversify their security baskets. They will continue to buy a lot of American weapons. In fact, they may increase their purchases of American weapons, but I think they will start phasing out the bases. Not all of them, they may be keeping one or two. But this type of a system in which I think right now there's about 19 bases, permanent bases in the region, I think is going to be something that we're not going to see five to ten years from now. Now and again, it's also going to come down to cost. The United States is not going to pay for the rebuilding of these bases. It's going to ask these states to do so. And many of them are going to say, well, we would rather use the money to buy weapons from the United States or weapons from other countries and diversify our basket. Now, the UAE may be the exception. The UAE may actually triple down, not just on the United States, but on Israel as well and become an even closer ally of the United States and Israel militarily.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Dr. Parsi, thank you so much for joining us, sir. We deeply appreciate your time.

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Support for the show comes from Public the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosure is available at public.com disclosures

[Redfin Advertiser]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Let's turn now to Spirit Airlines in terms of the impact. So a lot of different claims going around are out there about why Spirit Airlines not only went bankrupt, but went literally ceasing operations overnight, leading to some passengers having to be rebooked. Emotional, you know, under goodbye announcements from pilots in the middle of the air. You almost never see this in the United States. Usually airlines are going to bankruptcy. That's not even all that uncommon. But to find a potential buyer, you know, they were potentially gonna get a bailout from the government. None of that ended up happening. And they just genuinely went bust overnight. With, yes, some signs in the immediate future, but not really many people expected this. So the Trump administration, obviously reacting to this over the weekend, here was Secretary Scott Bessen saying, actually it's Biden's fault. Let's take a listen.

[Krystal Ball]

The treasury was supposed to be doing a deal to save this company. Can you tell us what happened?

[Scott Bessent]

Sure, Maria. So this is just more of the mess we inherited from the Biden administration in 2020, September 2022. Elizabeth Warren, who loves to write letters, sent a letter to the Justice Department, to the labor, to the Transport Department, saying that they should oppose the merger with spirit Airlines lines. JetBlue wanted to buy them for $3.8 billion. It would have given them much more resiliency. And she and the Transportation Secretary, Pete Buttigieg, is probably the worst transportation secretary in history. When he came to the office, they also, they were against the merger. And if JetBlue had merged with Spirit, we would have all these jobs that were lost yesterday. We have had 30 airport, 30 regional airports who have lost service. And I can tell you what happened here. It wasn't treasury, it was Commerce that was trying to put something together. But the reason we were here was because the merger, the Biden administration opposed the merger. We shouldn't have been here in the first place.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So a lot of this is going around in terms of the blame. And I'm actually going to go jump to the last element, guys, here in the block. B7. From our friend Matt Stoller, who wrote this piece, who killed Spirit Airlines? He says it wasn't Biden's antitrust enforcers. There were many factors. Trump's Iran war, JetBlue, the big four airlines. And behind all of that, deregulation. This story has happened hundreds of times. I actually Think what he points out, and obviously this is mostly about the Iran war. I think that's it more than anything. But just to address this, that's certainly

[Krystal Ball]

the final trigger that came right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The Iran war is what actually put the bullet in their head. But obviously they were dying, bleeding out for many years. What happened? They had a proposed merger with JetBlue. And on paper you're like, okay, well that seems better. What I wasn't really aware though, from Matt until I really dug into it was JetBlue's plan was to hike fares and to cancel like 40% or something of their route. So not really good for the consumer. Now maybe it'd be better off if they had merged and you know, it was still moderately there. But. However, what I seem to have read now is that many of the airlines were actually lobbying the Biden or the Trump administration not to bail out Spirit Airlines. Why? Because Spirit, at the end of the day, listen, I do, I hate Spirit Airlines and I wouldn't fly it, but I fly more than once a year. The vast majority of their customers are one to three times a year flyers who are looking for a cheap discount fare to go place from A to B. And they don't care if they have to pay if they're not going to get a soda from Washington to Denver for four and a half hour flight. Right? That's not.

[Krystal Ball]

Or have to priority pick your seat

[Sagar Enjeti]

or pay to pick your seat. They're like, I don't give a shit. Just give me, get me from point A to point B so I can go see my cousin or can go on vacation, it's fine. I think that's a very valuable place in the market. So what they happen to do is that Spirit's competitive fares actually dragged down basic economy fares for all of the big three carriers. So the big three carriers were desperate actually, actually for the government not to bail out Spirit so they could go bust. This is Another reason why JetBlue really wanted to acquire Spirit and hike the rates was because they're competing against each other. So this is actually a good example of multifactorial policy. Number one is that we had a policy where we had a discount airline which we potentially would have bailed out. I think we should have bailed them out. And look, I know many people are gonna be upset about that, but I think cheaper airfare is a vital and important thing to a functioning first world nation. I just really do. That's why they have Ryanair and all those cheap options in Europe. And honestly, it's really nice for a lot of the people who live there. You can jet literally across the continent here. We've never had that. We're a huge country, I accept that. But a couple hundred dollars as opposed to six, $700 is really, really important to especially middle class people or families trying to get somewhere. So you have this general policy where we potentially would have done on a bailout. We ultimately didn't do it for a variety of reasons. I mostly think it's cause the big three airlines said hey please don't do it and then the Iran war doubled their jet fuel cost overnight and basically just put two bullets in their head and they just had to die. It's honestly a tragic story. It's a direct consequence of Iran but of a lot of other government policy over the years.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And to your point, so the big airlines really despise them and have been trying to do everything they can to destroy them. And Matt has some reporting that's not totally confirmed but that he had from an insider about the way they would do that. And so effectively he said consumers of low fare airlines tend to book a few weeks before their trip. So a few weeks before a Spirit flight from say New York to Orlando, one or more of the big carriers would radically discount their price on just 20 seats on a similar route. So they would poach those last 20 customers from Spirit. Now they could afford to effectively sell those seats at a loss. And what that means is for Spirit it would take what would have otherwise been a profitable flight and put it in the red. And so there is a, if you look at their profitability over time, somewhere around 2016, it seems like the big carriers figure out this strategy to effectively try to come in and destroy them. And so then now you had them on weak financial footing looking for a bailout, really being pushed over the cliff by the Iran war and the jet fuel prices. And then who's there to come in and do that final shove over the cliff? The major carriers who want them to be dead. You know, in terms of this JetBlue merger, potential merger. Cuz this is what all the talking points are about. Oh, Biden's antitrust and even Neritan. And it's not just the Republicans by the way, Neera Tanden and other corporate type Democrats coming in using the same argument to argue against, against future antitrust enforcement. Were you to have another Democratic administration, The other problem with it, number one, it was sort of on its face illegal. Even Spirit airlines create a presentation for their shareholders where they're like this is probably illegal and will probably be blocked. They were contemplating a separate deal where they would merge with another low cost carrier, Frontier, which seemed to make more sense and would have preserved their business model and preserved the downward pressure that they had on prices and the positive impact they have for consumers, you know, on the routes that they fly. So. But the shareholders ignored that advice, went ahead with it, you know, hoped for the best. Ultimately, predictably, it was struck down as illegal. There's one other aspect of it too, though, which is that JetBlue was really loaded up with debt at that time as well. And so they would have been taking on obviously an even more extraordinary amount of debt just to buy Spirit. So it's not even clear that JetBlue would have been able to manage then their debt service and they would have survived into the future. But it certainly would have meant that, you know, Spirit would have been killed earlier, it would have been killed at the time of that merger versus being killed now by the jet fuel price surge and by the four big carriers who wanted to see them gone.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Let's put B4 up here on the screen because it's one thing to say jet fuel, it's another here to see the numbers. So Patrick DeHaan over at GasBuddy compiled this list. Just check this out. This is from May 2nd. So only two days ago. Just imagine what airlines are contending with here is the cost to fill a Boeing 777 today. Chicago, $213,000. Dallas, 180,000. Minneapolis, 180,000. New York City, 180,000. Los Angeles, 217,000. Seattle, 225,000. So, yeah, that's a lot of money. We're talking about 200 grand in some cases to fill the whole plane. Now look, I get it. It's a big aircraft. Like, you know, he probably picked a bigger one just to show exactly what you're dealing with at a macro level. And I know it does take a full tank of gas just to get somewhere going, but I mean, come on, $200,000 just to fill up an airplane? Like that's a lot of money. And that's double literally what it cost as of a month ago. So that's gonna show up somewhere. There is no denying this. The Iran war is what killed Spirit. Now, they were again, they were bleeding out already, but it was the jet fuel crisis. Let's go ahead and put B3 up there on the screen. They actually detail this in Al Jazeera. They've begun their wind down all over the jet Fuel doubling in prices, that will cost now thousands of jobs. But I think more importantly is that this airline, so for example, in the week between May 1 and May 15, they had 809,000 seats which would have flown on 4,119 domestic flights. So that is almost 800,000 or sorry, 400,000 seats because of the status of when they're going bankrupt, that will just not be here this week. 400,000 seats on an airplane that is going to show up somewhere. And the likelihood is it will show up in. Now American and Delta and United, they can charge whatever they want and they've got the jet fuel stats stuff on top of that. So good, you know, good luck to anybody who wants to fly right now. I don't think it's out of the question to see $800,000 fares even for Intra east coast like in the middle of the summer. And in terms of international good luck, like I was looking at Dubai this morning, even in the couple weeks since the ceasefire, air traffic out of Dubai or passenger traffic in Dubai International airport is down 20% now. Now look, some of that demand will be destroyed, let's say 10%. But those other 10, if they're still gonna fly somewhere, they might have to go through Europe. So if you're trying to connect, if you're going to Asia and you're connecting through Europe or through a diff or a direct flight, you know, one of those very competitive flights from here in the US I think it will be like thousands of dollars. Like I think the idea of an economy ticket being 1 to 2000, which I still think was high compared to where things were before. I think you could potentially start to see real economy seats, not premium economy seats, be like 3,500, $4,000 in the middle of peak summer. If stuff like this continues and you have airlines adding on additional jet fuel surcharges like Japan Airlines, 350 per ticket for any one way flight, North America and Europe and then so round trip, that's another 700 bucks. Heathrow, I'm sure by the end of the next few months will also have, have they already have a very, very high landing tax. I think it could go up, you know, even more, several hundred bucks. So this is just going to be unsustainable. Like you're just not going to be able to fly anymore. Yeah, at a certain point.

[Krystal Ball]

And looking internationally, Air India, they cut all of their international flights through July. All of them.

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

Oh my God.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, they cut all of their.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is a very specific niche thing. But there are a lot of families living in the Bay Area and, you know, people like me who grew up as first generation immigrants who all would go to India over the summer and book on shitty. No offense, actually. No offense. On shitty airlines like Air India.

[Krystal Ball]

Air India is the worst airline ever.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Fly dog.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay, fine. Let's just say it's dog shit, all right? It's.

[Krystal Ball]

There were literally cockroaches on our plane.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It is, I'm not kidding, the worst airline in the world. Sorry. Don't sue me, all right? I had a bad experience. It's my own personal experience.

[Krystal Ball]

Multiple bad experiences. But anyway, it's not good for a lot of people. So apparently they're flying domestically still within India, but all of their international flight flights through July are completely cut. But, you know, going back to what you're talking about in terms of the impact here domestically from Spirit's closure, there was literally something called the Spirit effect. When they would begin flying a certain route, every other carrier knew they had to reduce their price. And so with them gone, now their hand is freed. And Stoller makes a bigger point and really should read his whole analysis because. Cause it's typically, you know, as usual, it's very excellent and in depth and very thoughtful, which is that ever since the airline industry was deregulated, you've had all of this combination of consolidations and mergers and then just so many bankruptcies, because it really is the type of service. And he compares it to the mail service, where it's like you pay the same amount for a stamp, and for some places that is, you're sort of paying above cost and you're subsidizing service to rural areas. It's a similar dynamic with air travel where if you want there to be reliable, affordable access throughout the country, you're going to have to manage that from the, you know, from the federal level and make sure that those routes, even the ones that are not the most profitable, that those continue to be serviced. And so, you know, undergirding this whole story, you know, going back now decades, when the decision was made to deregulate airlines, that's when you get to this scenario of having a handful of choices and the big airlines with their hubs and the way they're able to operate and the way they're able to go after new entrants like Spirit that were trying to undercut them on price. That's how you end up in this situation where air travel is miserable, where you don't have access in certain parts, parts of the country where low cost carriers and others who are trying to innovate are quickly pushed out. Last thing here, we can put B5 up on the screen. It just shows you that this fuel price crunch is not just going to affect airlines here. We already talked about Air India, Sagar was talking about Ryanair. Actually, the UK is now loosening some of their rules and saying basically like, okay, if you have a flight that's going somewhere that's half empty and you have another one later in the day, you're allowed to push those passengers to that other flight, which is something they weren't allowed to do before. But in any case, you know, this is the early days. This is the early days of the impact from the war. This is just like Covid where, you know, you drop a giant boulder in the water and then the ripples just spread and spread and spread. And this is one of the first very noticeable ripples. And you know, is it the end of the world? No. If you were hoping to go to a wedding or a funeral or visit your relatives or God forbid, go on vacation, certainly not a happy thing. But it's not necessarily life threatening. But this is just the first of many, many impacts that we are already seeing ripple throughout our economy and the global economy.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, exactly. Look, what made Covid inflation miserable is nobody died because food prices went up by 20%. Okay? Very few people.

[Krystal Ball]

People probably did, actually.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, very few people died because food prices went up by 20%. It still sucks. I mean, that's the whole point. What has been happening in this country since 2020, every year it gets worse. Housing, food, things more expensive. It's just like everything has more friction. Has it really gotten better? I just, I don't think more crime. It's just like everything is shitty. And you know, there's that. What is the theory? It's like. And shittification. I'm sure you've heard that before with corporate, you know, dealing with a corporation health insurance. Right, right. It's just nothing is simple. And yes, maybe that is romanticizing a different time, but I don't know, I just. I just feel like things are getting worse and worse and worse and I don't see anything particularly getting better.

[I]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Eminem's popped

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

caramel do sound different. Oh, no. People are gonna be obsessed.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What do you mean?

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

People hate the sound of chewing. Maybe they won't like the crunch.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

Maybe we're saved. Wait a minute.

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

Yellow. Have you been eating them this whole time? Mmm.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

So tasty.

[Dr. Trita Parsi]

Hands off us.

[Public Investing Advertiser]

M&M's popped caramel. It's more fun together.

[Krystal Ball]

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.