← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
6/1/26: US Bombs Iran, Jeff Sachs On WH Econ Lies, Artists Bail On Trump 250th Event
00:55:19
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- [00:00]
Krystal Ball
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [00:04]
Jacob Goldstein
What's up, y'?
- [00:05]
Jeffrey Sachs
All?
- [00:06]
Jacob Goldstein
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- [00:54]
Krystal Ball
I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I
- [00:58]
Saagar Enjeti
don't trust much of anything.
- [01:01]
Jeffrey Sachs
It's the rage.
- [01:02]
Ryan Seacrest
Bait
- [01:04]
Krystal Ball
feels like it's trying to divide people.
- [01:08]
Saagar Enjeti
We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little.
- [01:13]
Jacob Goldstein
NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America. Hi, this is Gronk from Dudes on Dudes. I'm here to tell you about protecting your end zone with wet, extra large flushable dude wipes. Unlike dry wiping with toilet paper, dude wipes clear instead of smear wetter cleans better. Goodbye dingleberries. Goodbye itch and irritation. Plus, if you take Gronk sized grumpies, or as I like to call them, gronkies baby wipes won't do. You need extra big dude wipes to handle the job. So don't fumble the ball with toilet paper. Stop being an A hole to your B hole and start using dude Wipes. Available on Amazon and major retailers nationwide. Dude wipes best clean, Pants down.
- [02:05]
Saagar Enjeti
Hey, guys, Sager and Krystal here.
- [02:07]
Krystal Ball
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
- [02:14]
Saagar Enjeti
This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [02:20]
Krystal Ball
So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [02:31]
Saagar Enjeti
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com. good morning, everybody. Happy Monday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have? Crystal?
- [02:43]
Krystal Ball
Indeed we do a lot of breaking news that we added to the show this morning. There is a new exchange of fire between the US And Iran. Trump is complaining about people chirping, making it harder to get a deal. Jeffrey Sachs is going to join us to talk about all of that. He's also going to take a look at the continued economic fallout. And it's some very interesting comments from a economic adviser to the president, Kevin Hassett. Is that his name? Kevin? Anyway, after, after major cancellations, Trump is floating, canceling All America 250 performances and just giving a rally speech because we've never seen that before. Israel is being integrated deeply into our defense industrial base. Brandon Weickert is going to join us with his analysis of that. But it is not too late to stop. So we all need to take action right away to make sure this provision does not go forward. Graham Platner and his wife are responding to sexting allegations from a disgruntled former staffer. And a bunch of centrist Dems are low key, suggesting that Democrats should vote for the Republican instead. And Cenk Uygur and Hasan Piker were both blocked from entering the UK over their Israel criticism. Absolute insanity. Cenk is going to join us live to tell us what happened and his
- [03:54]
Saagar Enjeti
reaction, totally and completely nuts. Thank you to everybody subscribing to the show. BreakingPoints.com we have our great premium subscription currently happening and big, big things that are all launching literally this month. So you want to go ahead and be for those who are our premium subscribers, make sure that you are emailing supportupercast.com if you're having any issues whatsoever. At this point we have only a straggling, maybe dozen cases or so that have not been resolved. So if you are one of those people, just continue to send your emails and if we haven't caught that, just go ahead and send your email. We will get you resolved as quickly as possible. It's only been a week and it looks like we're already up and running. This is gonna be a long show though, so just so everybody makes sure to calibrate their expectations.
- [04:35]
Krystal Ball
Added Jankin last minute so that extended the L of the show. So may get on a little bit
- [04:41]
Saagar Enjeti
late, it may get out a little bit late. We hope it's worth it. It is major breaking news and we do of course need to speak to Cenk about this and it's an unprecedented, literally situation. So with all of that, oh, everybody hit subscribe to our YouTube channel if you're listening to this podcast, please share an episode with a friend. But let's go ahead and start here with the situation in Iran in deja vu for this show, we had something planned for a ceasefire, and yet it begins with an exchange of fire last night between the United States and Iran. Let's go and put this up here on the screen. Actually, arguably the more ser exchanges of fire that have happened now. The United States has struck Iranian air defenses on Kesham island after Iran brought down an MQ9.1, or sorry, an MQ1 drone, a $4 million surveillance drone from the United States. The US fighters also claim that they shot down two Iranian attack zones that posed a threat to ships in the Strait of Hormuz and transiting oil tankers. So Kuwait as of this morning, said that the country was then under attack by ballistic missiles and drones. Alarms sounded across the country. United States taking out some air defense systems, radar and drone sites on Kesham Island. So all of this is very familiar, but the exchange of fire, the serious exchange of fire here, multiple different things happening. U.S. bases that were under attack actually come on the heels of a more serious development, which is the hot conflict in Lebanon, which of course, we've been covering day after day here on the show for this very reason. Iran has said unequivocally that the cease fire applies to Lebanon. This was confirmed by the Pakistanis in the original April 7 announcement of the ceasefire. Of course, fire never actually ceased in Lebanon. Iran was willing to give the United States some ground where they were trying to negotiate a cease fire between the Lebanese government and between the Israeli government. All of that apparently has currently, as of right now, seems to have failed. Here's a a major reminder by the Iranian foreign minister. Let's put this up here on the screen again, literally breaking minutes before even doing our show. This is from Saeed Arachi, for immediate attention. The ceasefire between Iran and the United States is unequivocally a ceasefire on all fronts, including in Lebanon. Its violation on one front is a violation of the ceasefire on all fronts. The US And Israel are responsible for the consequences of any violation. And this comes after immediate announcement from the Israeli prime minister. In response to the repeated and ongoing violations of the ceasefire in Lebanon by the terrorist organization Hezbollah and the attacks against our cities and citizens, I have instructed the idf, together with the Defense Minister, Israel Katz, to strike terrorist targets in the Diya district of Beirut. So we again will almost certainly tomorrow have some video of just absolutely apocalyptic scenes out of Beirut as Israel's Military will pound the country of Lebanon. Remember this is str that are happening in the capital while Israeli forces continue to advance farther and farther into the country with their own stated goal of never leaving a serious portion and effectively taking over half of the country. This continues as there were more than 50 attacks actually in northern Israel as of this morning from Hezbollah. So it does seem, look, this has been a low grade conflict. Crystal has been happening the entire time of the ceasefire. But it is becoming clearer and clearer. Israel will not stop its advancement into Lebanon and that the ceasefire talks between the Israeli government and the Lebanese government, which even then exclude Hezbollah themselves, do not even appear to be progressing, which is endangering the entire framework or any hope of such framework as of this morning.
- [08:26]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, that's absolutely right. And we've known this from the beginning. I mean Iran has consistently stated that they are looking for a ceasefire and an end to hostilities on all fronts. They have focused on Lebanon from the very beginning. Remember when Trump announced that he had accepted as a basis for negotiat the Iranian ten point plan. It was made very clear in that process that Lebanon was considered essential to moving forward and the Iranians have not backed off of this whatsoever. Meanwhile, Trump has effectively given Israel the green light to go forward with this. After at one point saying that you know, they must stop and demanding that on true social, since then he has now effectively given them the green light to continue to bomb and attack within Lebanon. The Israelis and their supporters and allies recognize that this could be a very effective way to blow the deal. So no one should be surprised that that is exactly what they are trying to do because they do not want this deal to go forward. Trump seems unwilling to do what it takes to rein them in. And the Iranians are still drawing a hard line around this. So, you know, to call it a major obstacle, it's. It's an impossibility if some dynamic doesn't shift. Trump also posting kind of a revealing true social that we can put up on the screen here. As you know, deal negotiations seem to be teetering. I guess we'll say he said Iran wants to make a deal and it will be a good one for the USA and those that are with us. But don't the Democrats and various seemingly unpatriotic Republicans understand that it is much tougher for me to properly do my job and negotiate when political hacks keep negatively chirping at levels never seen before over and over again that I should move faster or move slower or go to war or not go to War or whatever. Just sit back and relax, Sagar. It will all work out well in the end. It always does. That really reminded me of one of the things Tucker said about his conversations with Trump when he was urging him not to engage in this foolish and disastrous war, is that Trump said to him, effectively, don't worry, it's all going to be fine. And Tucker was like, well, why? What makes you say that? Why do you think that? And he said exactly this because it always works out. It'll be fine. Because he's always landed on his feet. He's gonna land on his feet this time. Not based on any sort of reason or logic or rationality or plan to extricate ourselves from this mess. Just a blind, narcissistic faith in his own sort of like, divine right to always have things work out. And so that's what he's selling to the public. The other interesting thing, Sagar, I think, to note here is, you know, in his comments about chirping, you could imagine, and he sort of alludes to that it could be the neocons that he's annoyed with in terms of chirping, because they're push that, oh, we need to go, we need to go back to more war. We need to be more aggressive. You know, we've got to make sure that we don't give Iran absolutely anything in terms of this deal. We've got to be as hawkish as possible. But that is sort of undercut. The notion that he's pushing back on them is undercut by the fact that earlier he encouraged everyone to go and watch Mark Levin show.
- [11:28]
Saagar Enjeti
I was going to say that would
- [11:29]
Krystal Ball
be not an encouraging sign.
- [11:31]
Saagar Enjeti
That would be a very comforting thought if we did not have this. Let's put a five up there on the screen. Over the weekend, the president posting on Truth Social Watch, Mark levin tonight at 8, a big show which immediately then is followed by this Mark Levin interview with the former Israeli ambassador. Let's take a listen.
- [11:51]
Jeffrey Sachs
Tell me, what is the mindset in
- [11:53]
Saagar Enjeti
Israel with the Israeli people and so forth?
- [11:56]
Kevin Hassett
Very concerned, Mark, I'll be very frank with you.
- [11:58]
Saagar Enjeti
Very concerned that if the regime has thrown a lifeline through sanction relief, through the unfreezing of frozen assets, you're talking about tens and tens of billions of dollars. Then it will continue to fund Hezbollah, it'll continue to fund Hamas, it'll continue to build intercontinental ballistic missiles that have threatened us. And what I want to say to the president, if I had that elevator talk with him as I talk about in Washington, where you get caught in an elevator with somebody for two minutes, I'd say to him, so, President, you have an opportunity to go down in history not as one of the great presidents of American history, but one of the great leaders of all time, the ultimate game changer. And I know it's difficult and under your immense pressures, economically, politically, but stay the course. Stay the course and run out the clock on these guys, because they have a clock.
- [12:47]
Jeffrey Sachs
And you know what else?
- [12:49]
Saagar Enjeti
Let's say my team loses the midterm
- [12:53]
Jeffrey Sachs
elections in the House of Representatives.
- [12:56]
Saagar Enjeti
They're still not going to be able
- [12:58]
Jeffrey Sachs
to stop the commander in chief, the President of the United States, under our Constitution, from doing what he needs to do and what he wants to do. War Powers Act.
- [13:08]
Saagar Enjeti
No, War Powers act and all the rest of it, unless they intervene in a budgetary way and literally cut us off. But that's on them if they do it. So that's basically we're all ungrateful nits, and it's all worth it in the end. You also just love having a literal Israeli politician who is, you know, from the United States, actually, I think, believe renounced his citizenship to be able to become the Israeli ambassador to the United States, then talk to Trump about how he can go down as a great man of history. So that is apparently where things are right now. We do have the great Professor Jeffrey Sachs to break some more of this down. The situation with Iran. Let's get to it.
- [13:50]
Krystal Ball
So joining us now to break down all of these developments and more is Columbia University professor and economist and great friend of the show, Jeffrey Sachs. Great to see you, sir.
- [13:58]
Saagar Enjeti
Good to see you, sir.
- [13:59]
Jeffrey Sachs
Great to be with you. Thank you.
- [14:00]
Krystal Ball
So we just went over some of the developments this morning. We've had a new exchange of fire between the Iran and US and Iran and Kuwait. We also have Trump coming out and complaining about people chirping as he's trying to make a deal. Obviously, Israel continues to bomb inside of Lebanon and Iran continues to insist that that is a red line for them. So what do you see as going on right now? Do you think we are actually close to a deal or is this whole thing following falling apart and degrading?
- [14:31]
Jeffrey Sachs
I don't know if there can be a deal, but there can be a solution. And the solution is quite straightforward. The United States should leave. That's all. The United States and Israel had an idea. It was crazy, it failed. But the idea was that in one day they would take over Iran. That was literally the idea that they would kill the leadership Put in a new leader of their choice, and then we'd all live happily ever after in their fantasy land. This failed within hours. Iran consolidated its government, especially the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. It consolidated its control. And most importantly, Iran demonstrated the capacity to retaliate and to retaliate very effectively. And the United States and Israel can do nothing about this. In other words, there is no military solution, period. Trump continues to act as if he can make total demands on the Iranian side that Iran has no interest in agreeing to. And from Israel's point of view, of course, Netanyahu simply wants the war to continue and to escalate. So Israel uses the United States, it abuses the United States, the US Lets itself be abused, and this is where we are. Nothing has changed since March 1st. And Trump can fulminate. He can make demands, he can make threats. None of these threats is credible. He knows it. The US Intelligence agencies know it. The Pentagon knows it. There's no military solution. So what should be done? I personally don't see how there can be an agreement on complex issues like the nuclear brief. You're going to have Kushner and Witkoff negotiate a nuclear arms control agreement? Are you kidding? Of course not. So the idea that this is somehow real negotiations is ludicrous. The idea that Iran, in this circumstance, where you have a war criminal nearby, Netanyahu saying, we need to kill all of them, unilaterally giving up anything is absurd. When you are facing a Donald Trump who says, let's negotiate, and then he bombs you the next moment, that's absurd. So I personally don't see how there can be a negotiated agreement, but I see a perfectly fine solution, which is the United States leaves, goes home, declares victory, of course, the greatest victory in the history of humanity, and Iran opens up the strait again, and, yeah, maybe collects a dollar a barrel of oil, because that would be about $7 billion a year against maybe $50 billion of destruction by Israel and the United States in the last 90 days.
- [18:13]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah.
- [18:14]
Jeffrey Sachs
So no problem. Nothing even to discuss next year. If you don't send Kushner and Witkoff, but you actually send some competent people, then the nuclear issue can be brought up again. And of course, we know the ultimate irony is the nuclear issue was solved 11 years ago and Trump ripped it up. So this is immaturity. It's petulance, it's stubbornness. It's the Zionist lobby, its refusal to face facts. It's an old, ignorant man as our president. But there's an obvious answer. Get the oil prices down, go home, have a shot at your midterm elections, which Trump now says he doesn't care about. Good if he doesn't. But I don't want it to be decided on the basis of continued war. But in any event, just go home. You tried something. You tried a stunt. Someone sold you a line. We know who it is. Barnier and Bibi sold Trump a line. He alone in the room bought it. The others thought it was farcical, but he bought it. They tried it, it failed. Well, what are you going to do? Keep trying the same farcical failure? That's where we are right now. No need for a deal. No need for a deal. Just go home.
- [19:46]
Krystal Ball
Of course, Sagra, the professor forgets that they've also added someone from the foundation for the Defense of Democracies to the negotiating team, so surely I'm sor.
- [19:55]
Jeffrey Sachs
Fair enough. Fair enough.
- [19:58]
Saagar Enjeti
One last question on Iran, sir. Zooming out. You travel the world. You speak to a lot of diplomats, Europe and Asia. What has been the reaction behind the scenes? You talk to a lot of these world leaders and a lot of these diplomats. What are they all thinking right now about the United States in the aftermath of the Iran war?
- [20:14]
Jeffrey Sachs
I think everyone sees that the United States government is incompetent, irrational, incapable. So this is a display of. Of the lack of any process or foresight. They see an old guy surrounded by yes men, by sycophants, making decisions that Netanyahu passes to him. And it's not. Not impressive. So I think the world doesn't quite know how to handle this. They have business to do with the United States. But this has been a display of profound incompetence. And that, I think, is the overriding fact. Of course, they're. They're pissed off. Also, their energy prices have soared. This hurts people across the world. They don't like this. They want this to end. But the main thing that they see is instability and incompetence in the United States.
- [21:26]
Krystal Ball
I turned off news altogether.
- [21:29]
Saagar Enjeti
I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.
- [21:33]
Jeffrey Sachs
It's the rage bait.
- [21:36]
Krystal Ball
It feels like it's trash trying to divide people.
- [21:40]
Saagar Enjeti
We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little.
- [21:46]
Jacob Goldstein
NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
- [21:55]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway for you. Save days are here now through June 23rd. Find hot deals throughout the store and earn four times a point. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Keebler, General Mills, Lactaid, Jack Links, Cheez it and Gatorade. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more, enjoy savings on top of savings. When you shop in store or online for easy pickup or delivery, restrictions apply. See the website for full terms and conditions.
- [22:26]
Krystal Ball
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- [23:22]
Kevin Hassett
One of the reasons is that people are spending more on gas, but they're also spending more on everything else, not just groceries, but restaurants and so on. And I think that that's a sign that you you would see when people are optimistic about about the future. So generally what we see when people are worried they're going to lose their job, which they shouldn't be because the initial claims for unemployment insurance about the lowest they've ever been. When they're worried they're going to lose their job, that's where they stop spending like crazy and start saving money because they're worried they might not have to pay. They might have the money for their pay and paying their rent. And so what we're seeing right now is spending based on optimism about the future. And if you consider how big the boom is going to be like right now, Atlanta Fed's GDP now is about a 4% growth for the current quarter. You look at how big the boom will be when the Straits open, then it's reasonable for people to be optimistic.
- [24:10]
Krystal Ball
Well, we hope there is reason for optimism with the Strait and beyond. So professor, he says, oh, not only are they spending more on gas, they're spending more on everything.
- [24:18]
Jeffrey Sachs
Was that I Generated, by the way.
- [24:20]
Saagar Enjeti
That's real.
- [24:21]
Krystal Ball
Make it.
- [24:21]
Saagar Enjeti
That's real.
- [24:22]
Jeffrey Sachs
He's actually said twice that's. That smile seemed completely phony. And of course, every word he was saying was a lie because consumer confidence has plummeted. People are suffering. The American economy has two parts to it. There is a digital and war industry, which is booming. Let's say it's booming on Pentagon contracts, it's booming on war. So if you look at Silicon Valley and you look at the AI bubble and now AI bubble for autonomous weapons and Palantir information systems and the like, yeah, this is good if you happen to be the few people that own our government. But for the rest of Americans, they can't believe what's going on. And that's why Trump's approval rating reached the grand number of 34% against. I think it's 58% disapproval rating in the most recent Economist poll. But somewhere around there, 58 to 60%, people are disgusted they can't pay their bills. The United States budget is totally a joke. 7% of GDP budget deficit. Trump's asking for a $500 billion increase of military spending. This is nuts. This is exactly what we're seeing in the domestic management that the rest of the world is watching in the American escapades in the Gulf. Complete incompetence. And I hope they pay Haccit well, because, you know, to be a grown person and stand up and say such nonsense, I hope he gets some compensation for that debt.
- [26:19]
Saagar Enjeti
Well, we have another one for you. Here he is talking about credit card debt. Let's take a listen.
- [26:23]
Krystal Ball
Credit card debt, though, because that's another issue. Wall Street Journal says in the first quarter of this year, the percentage of credit card balances that were at least 90 days delinquent rose to 13.12%, according to data released in May by the Federal Reserve bank of New York. That's the highest level in 15 years and the most since the period following the 2008 financial crisis. People say they're using those cars cards to get through necessities because they can't afford what's going on. So your message to them, right?
- [26:51]
Kevin Hassett
Well, we Talk to the CEOs of the credit card companies all the time, and we do see some increased stress, like the numbers that the Wall Street Journal quotes. But for the most part, the delinquency is different from defaults. And there's not any kind of threat, financial threat to the credit card companies that they don't feel like they're heading towards default scenarios. It's just that people are taking a little bit longer.
- [27:16]
Saagar Enjeti
He assures us through that the credit card companies are going to be okay. As for the customers, he's not so sure.
- [27:22]
Jeffrey Sachs
I love that smile. I just have to keep emphasizing that this is quite a commentator. But yes, you know, it's also absurd. They talk to the CEOs. I'm sure the CEOs are doing just fine, thank you. But the people whose credit card bills from necessities, as Fox News was kind enough to remind us, is soaring. So we have two Americas. One has most of the people in it. They're not feeling well. They hate this war by overwhelming majorities. They can't pay their bills. They are falling further and further behind. And then we have the CEO class, of course, and we have Anduril and we have Palantir. We have all of the big tech companies. They're having a glorious time. War is good business and things are revving up.
- [28:22]
Krystal Ball
I wanted to ask you more about your analysis earlier of how this is a kind of bifurcated economy. And what I've been seeing is, you know, in previous eras, it's not like the stock market was perfectly predictive of the, the well being of the average American, but you could imagine that was at least some sort of correlation. Now it seems to be a reverse indicator that the better the stock market does because it is all consolidated, you know, concentrated into these AI tech companies, the better the stock market does, the more that the average American suffers because what they're being rewarded for with these AI companies is their ability to replace human workers. And I wonder if you see it the same and how you're analyzing that impact at this point.
- [29:08]
Jeffrey Sachs
There are two things going on. One is exactly what you said and it's a deep trend which did not start with AI. It started with automation, robotics already more than 40 years ago. And we see it in one key, very interesting number you can take, take the national income in the United States and ask what part goes to workers and what part goes to capital income. And when I was a student of economics in graduate school decades ago in the late 70s, we used to say that the share that would go to workers was about two thirds of the total national income. Now just the most recent data puts it at about 50%. In other words, it's gone from about 0.65 to 0.5. That is a big deal. What's happening is more and more of the national income that's produced is going to profits, is going to corporate earnings, is going to rents to ownership of patents and so forth. And what workers get is absolutely falling as a share. But for a great part of our society, what workers get is falling in absolute terms. And AI will speed that up. Artificial intelligence substitutes these algorithms for human labor. And whatever anyone says, this is a process that's been going on for decades and wages are stagnant or falling for those segments of the labor force where that substitution can occur. Let's say 30 years ago it was people on the assembly line. Those jobs didn't go to China. Those jobs went to the robots. Now the jobs are going to Claude and two others. And this is happening actually with the new swath we know, it's with the college graduates this year. They're not finding jobs when they come out. And this is showing up as this shift of national income. The second thing that's happening, I think most likely this is always a judgment that only could be made ex post is that we really have a bubble. We really have the Elon Musk thrill that we got the gazillion dollar companies and the trillion dollar man and all the rest. I see no way personally that the valuations that are being put on big tech and on the IPOs can in any way be justified because one of the core features of these technologies is, is that they diffuse. There really is competition. There isn't somehow control by the first mover. China runs AI on an open source stack because it's trying to compete with the United States. So it's trying to get users all over the world. That means there's going to be a lot of open source ways to access this very powerful technology and all these huge, huge revenues that are being anticipated by these companies that are now, you know, 50 times earnings or 100 times earnings or infinite because there are no earnings. I don't think this is going to materialize in the way that is expected. So on top of the fundamental shift towards profits, which I think is real and deep, there is also, I think a financial bubble that is underway.
- [33:07]
Krystal Ball
I turned off news altogether.
- [33:10]
Saagar Enjeti
I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.
- [33:15]
Jeffrey Sachs
It's the rage bait.
- [33:17]
Krystal Ball
It feels like it's trying to divide people.
- [33:21]
Saagar Enjeti
We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.
- [33:27]
Jacob Goldstein
NBC News brings you clear report reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
- [33:37]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway for you. Save days are here now through June 23rd. Find hot deals throughout the store and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Keebler, General Mills, Lactaid, Jack Links, Cheeze it, and Gatorade. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy pickup or delivery, restrictions apply. See the website for full terms and conditions.
- [34:07]
Jacob Goldstein
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- [34:38]
Saagar Enjeti
o o.com professor when we zoom out a bit again, you know, looking to your own work and what you've looked at in the classroom, what are the parallels in history to these types of forces, to people coming out in the workforce in the midst of great technological change, of a great amount of wealth concentrated in potentially bubble assets? What does that look like and manifest
- [35:00]
Jeffrey Sachs
in a well, this has happened repeatedly. These technologies we call GPT general purpose technologies, which means something like the steam engine, which was the great invention of 250 years ago, created the factory world and not just in one sector but across the economy, and it created the railroad and many other things. Electrification was a general purpose technology. AI is a general purpose technology, an extraordinarily powerful one in my view. I don't believe it's hyped. I think it's amazing and real. But what you find with general purpose technologies is that generally they raise overall output in the economy, but dramatically redistribute the output as well. In the first industrial revolution with the steam engine, there were vast numbers of losers. The economy started to boom, especially in Britain, which was the first industrialized nation. But those masses in the satanic mills, these were women and children who used to have jobs in rural areas, for instance, spinning yarns. All of that went away with mechanization. They ended up as degraded workers. And it was exactly that, what we call miserization, becoming more miserable. That led Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels to issue the Communist manifesto in the 18 late 1840s. So that was real then. Over time, new institutions were developed to share the increase of output. Actually Bismarck, in the new German state in the 1870s and 1880s invented public pensions as a way to ensure that this booming economy would help more and more people. Well, this has been a repeated phenomenon. Big technological advance, the overall size of the economy increases. But the way that the pie is divided in the proverbial expression, changes dramatically. And we're going to have that with AI as well. And the American political system for at least 50 years has been, don't help anyone. We're on our own. You know, good luck to you. And in an AI era, that would prove devastating. Now, Trump appealed to those who are suffering both in 2016 and 2024 on a clever political messaging that was fundamentally false. He said China took your jobs. He said the migrants took your jobs. He didn't say technology has changed how we live and redistributed the national income. That is the right answer. There are no jobs coming back from China. By the way, I go to Chinese factories all the time. They don't have workers in them anymore because they're all automated. There aren't jobs coming back from China. What we have is a technological revolution, basically positive, actually, in that we can do more, we can be more clever, we can have more sophisticated drug discovery or better healthcare diagnostics or many other things, but it's not going to fall equally, it's going to miseraise part of our society unless we actually decide for the first time in more than half a century, to act like a society rather than to act like a group of individuals out in brutal competition with each other. But we don't even have that kind of understanding in our political discourse right now. But the AI is moving forward relentlessly, with or without it. And by the way, the number of meetings every day in every sector talking about loss of jobs, reshuffling of the workforce, this is happening everywhere right now. And we don't have any public policy framework, and we won't under Trump. This is something way beyond him.
- [39:50]
Krystal Ball
I think we do have a public policy framework under Trump. Rather than going in the direction of making sure that people will not be immiserated, what they've done is. You mentioned earlier the way he wants to dramatically increase. He's already increased the defense budget dramatically, but he wants to up it even further. And then we've also seen this tremendous increase in the domestic law enforcement budget and an emphasis on mass surveillance, et cetera. So it seems like the direction they want to go in is a sort of crackdown, authoritarian crackdown, to make sure that people, if they're. If they're Unhappy are not going to have the ability or will be too afraid to get out of line. But that's exactly right.
- [40:28]
Jeffrey Sachs
But I would just add one more point to that, which is that specifically the surveillance state and specifically the war economy are big business precisely for the AI industry. So it's not only incidental that they want to crack down. These are gold mines for them. More war. Phenomenal. Look at the biggest booming stock market in the world right now is Israel, because it's basically a war machine. It's basically a surveillance, intelligence and military machine. So war is good for the, for not.
- [41:03]
Krystal Ball
Not for the stock market.
- [41:05]
Jeffrey Sachs
For the stock market.
- [41:07]
Krystal Ball
Well, do you see the introduction of AI as you mentioned before? We've had general purpose technologies introduced before. You know, they, over time, once you had a transition, they benefited, I think the, the population overall, although there are some that may dispute that. But the difference may be, number one, how quickly AI has been developed and is being disseminated. And number two, previous general purpose technologies were meant to replace, like the horse, for example. This is explicitly meant to replace human beings. And the developers of it will tell you that and tell you things like we intend to make all of human labor irrelevant, human beings effectively irrelevant to, you know, productivity growth and economic output, et cetera. So do you see it as a, a more grave threat to the, you know, the prosperity and happiness of mankind than previous general purpose technologies?
- [42:07]
Jeffrey Sachs
Well, it's happening so much faster than anything else and we have metrics which we call adoption rates. How long does it take a certain number of users to use the technology? And we've never seen anything like what we have right now. ChatGPT is announced and within weeks its hundreds of millions of users worldwide. So we're seeing something that is happening completely at an unprecedented scale and I think that that will continue in terms of what it means for human well being. There are two issues. One issue is the distributional issue that we say gainers economically could compensate those who lose because the overall pie grows. Elon Musk, you know, he doesn't really need a trillion dollars of personal net worth or whatever, 600 or 700 billion. I didn't check this morning. He doesn't need that. So if we actually distributed well being in our country, we could have a broader gain. Then there's the meaning of life and the meaning of work question, which is that these technologies in a fair society would mean less work. The robots can do physical labor and the AI can do cognitive work of various kinds. Is that a good thing? In principle. Again, if it's done thoughtfully. It could very well be a good thing because we would have more time for friends, for family, for leisure, for culture, for exploration, for other things if the drudge work is actually carried out mechanically. And so per se. Earlier technologies, it's not true that they've always created new jobs to replace the old jobs. We actually work less hours per day on average than 100 years ago, by far. As a matter of fact, the numbers are quite astounding. The average work time of an adult American is about 3 hours, 20 minutes at this point. Something like that. That's for an economy of a $30 trillion outcome. Now, that counts weekend time, that counts retirement time, that counts time in school, that counts vacation time, leisure time, and so on. But the point is, we don't work like our grandparents and great grandparents did. They work not only at physical labor, but they worked round the clock, maybe six days a week. And this is a big change. And on the whole, I believe it's a plus. But American society, as we've been discussing, is quite distinctive. It's barely a society. Our political system is so corrupted. It's not regarded as a society. It's regarded as a group of particular interests, of which Silicon Valley itself is interest group number one. It's more powerful than every other interest group, partly because the generals are desperate for this technology, the military, the government has put its hands into. Palantir. Palantir is more important than the rest of our government. They're watching everything we do. They're building the surveillance state. So in this sense, we have a political and ethical problem that's quite fundamental in this country. And again with this, this current gang. These are gangsters. They're not in any way, shape or form even remotely aware or interested in these questions.
- [46:11]
Jacob Goldstein
Wow.
- [46:12]
Saagar Enjeti
Very inspirable as always, sir.
- [46:13]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. Went in a different direction this segment than I expected, but a really fascinating discussion. Professor, thank you so much for your time and your analysis, as always.
- [46:21]
Saagar Enjeti
Thank you, sir.
- [46:22]
Jeffrey Sachs
Good. See you soon.
- [46:26]
Krystal Ball
I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I
- [46:30]
Saagar Enjeti
don't trust much of anything.
- [46:33]
Ryan Seacrest
It's the rage bait.
- [46:35]
Krystal Ball
It feels like it's trying to divide people.
- [46:40]
Saagar Enjeti
We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.
- [46:45]
Jacob Goldstein
NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
- [46:55]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway for you. Save days are here now through June 23rd. Find hot deals throughout the store and earn four times a point. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Keebler, General Mills, Lactaid, Jack Links, Cheez it, and Gatorade. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy pickup or delivery. Delivery restrictions apply. See the website for full terms and conditions.
- [47:26]
Jacob Goldstein
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- [48:12]
Saagar Enjeti
America's 250th birthday, let's go ahead and start with what a disaster it seems the celebration will be. Let's put C2 up there on the screen from Trump. I understand artists are getting the yips having to do their performance on Wednesday. So I am thinking about bringing the number one attraction anywhere in the world. The man who gets much larger audiences than Elvis in his prime does so without a guitar. The man who loves our country more than anyone else. The man who some say is the greatest president in history. The Goat Donald J. Trump. To take the place of these highly paid third rate artists and give a major speech rallying the country forward like I have done ever since being president. And he goes on to basically talk about why he he's so fantastic. This comes on the heels of C3. Let's put this up here on the screen. After many of the some say second rate artists, actually no. By Trump's own admission, third rate artists that were announced as the Featured performers for Freedom250 the Great American State Fair have dropped out. Including Martina McBride, Young MC, Milli Vanilli, the Commodores, Morris Day and the Time and bright Bret Michaels. It seems that Vanilla Ice, Flo Rida and C C Music Factory will remain. I will confess I did not know who any of these people were except for Vanilla Ice and Flo Rida.
- [49:37]
Krystal Ball
Let me just say the most shocking part of this whole story is that I had to explain to both Sagar and Mac, who Milli Vanilli was, I
- [49:45]
Saagar Enjeti
don't have a clue.
- [49:45]
Krystal Ball
And the whole like, controversy surrounding how, you know, they, they were these hit artists and then it turns out they were just lip syncing. It was a, it was a big thing. So it was humiliating when they announced that Milli Vanilli, who's literally like a fake artist who is going to be performing. And then even more humiliating when Milli Vanilli was like, nah, he's like too good for this.
- [50:05]
Saagar Enjeti
We're good.
- [50:06]
Krystal Ball
We're not doing this meme. I mean, yeah, and I love, I also love how Trump is like just out and out announcing, like, yeah, I'm going to do the same old shit that I always do, as I've done done, you know, give another speech as I've done since I began to lead the country or whatever it is that he said, like, yeah, it's not going to be a special day. And Sagar, I feel like, you know, another president that hasn't made the office of the presidency all about them, you know, building monuments and putting their name on everything and, you know, instituting loyalty tests for literally every single position in the administration, another president you could imagine, you know, helping to put together a celebration like this that would feel non political, where you could have artists that have a different political ideology that still feel comfortable because they're like, it's not a celebration of this one man. It's a celebration of the country. And It's a celebration 250 years. Okay, we can do this. And I'm sure all the other celebrations that we've had for, you know, the centennial and the bicentennial, whatever, were like that. But because Trump is has this authoritarian tendency to personalize everything about the office and make it all about himself, it is impossible to participate in an event like this without low key endorsing Trump and what Trump is all about, or getting used for his spectacle and self aggrandizement. And of course, this is all being hosted like around his own personal birthday. So that doesn't help the matter either.
- [51:30]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, it's actually funny. To back up your point, I'll let Matt Walsh do the talking. Let's put C4 up there on the screen.
- [51:36]
Krystal Ball
As we like to do.
- [51:37]
Saagar Enjeti
As we like to do. I'm actually pretty pissed at how badly they bungled America 251st they tried to invite Milli Vanilli and a bunch of other absurdly washed up, geriatric one hit wonders. Then when that didn't work. They decided to convert the event into a Trump rally. Well, Trump will talk about himself for 90 minutes. This should have been a massive, raucous celebration of the country and its 250 history. Now it will be a political rally identical to the 10 million other ones that we have already seen. I completely agree, Matt Walsh, but I was doing some ruminating this morning, and I was thinking a little bit about why in some ways, it's fitting. So the last major celebration that we had was the bicentennial in 1976. And I actually think if you think back to that time, 1976 was a very bad year. We were coming off the heels of losing the war in Vietnam. This was the beginning of the Carter Stagflation era. There was a deep amount of questioning in the United States. It's like, who are we? We're this great superpower that seems to have run amok. We have no idea what we're doing internally. There was the Weather Underground. There was all this insanity bombings all across the United States. The New Left kind of era. The Democratic Party doesn't know what it is. Even the Republican Party itself is like going through the Goldwater revolution and the falling apart and the New Deal. And so, look, I mean, we can feel very pessimistic about where the country is, but things ended up being okay, at least in the 80s and the 90s. And so, I don't know. I mean, it does seem as if the bicentennial and the. What is it, the America 250 will share at least some of the DNA of all of that. But you're not wrong in terms of Trump himself making it. Trump making it about himself. I also think it's a reflection of the country. I was looking. The one that actually will shock everybody is the centennial. The centennial of the United States and even America 150. If you go back and you look at the way that people talk and celebrate it in 1926, the amount of reverence that Americans, average everyday Americans had for the Founding Fathers, they could tell you not only. They could probably recite significant portions of the Constitution, of the Declaration of Independence, they could tell you a lot about America's Founding Fathers, about the Federalist Paper, newspapers and more. I'm talking about everyday school children being able to do so. Even putting George Washington, you know, he was celebrated during the America 150. We are very, very far apart from that. It's not just about being divided. It's just like, you know, we talk about screens, a lot of the social disconnection and other things that we have here in the nation. So it does actually seem quite fitting. Trump was elected here in 2024, which is a sign of a crazy country, I think we can all at least say some of us can admit now. And so this is, you know, in many ways we, we get what we deserve. And in particular it's. Here is Trump now for his birthday celebration, ostensibly for freedom. 250 let's go ahead and put this video C1, please, on the screen. Trump is now turning the White House into a UFC stadium to celebrate his 80th birthday. Again, it's UFC 250. So ostensibly it is for the 250 birthday of America. You'll have some 5,000, 2,000 spectators. I love that they threw some of this into the reflecting pool and the East Wing and the Rose Garden and all these other crazy things. The stadium being built here on the White House lawn.
- [54:58]
Krystal Ball
By the way, the contract, I can't remember which outlet did some digging. The contract for painting the reflecting pool this blue color or whatever, of course went to some Trump aligned contractor and the profit margins are in a no bid contract with the profit margins.
- [55:14]
Saagar Enjeti
Yes.
- [55:16]
Krystal Ball
Escalated. So, yeah, even in all of this, of course, it's gotta be peppered with some Trumpian corruption too. It wouldn't be a celebration of Trump's birthday without some Trumpian corruption.
- [55:27]
Saagar Enjeti
I got no hate to the ufc, but let's all be honest. We're gonna have shirtless dudes and gladiator fights on the White House lawn. Like, what are we doing here? It's ridiculous. And to use. And to turn the White House, again, the South Lawn of the White House of the United States. This is a place for garden parties or for, you know, I can't even. The Easter egg roll. Right. Like, these are the types of events that are supposed to be happening here. To turn it into an explicitly, like, politically aligned. You could say it's not. Come on, Dana White, he's like the original Trump supporter. And then to turn it into some major spectacle which will all be broadcast, I believe on Paramount, plus the Trump alignment. Right. So.
- [56:04]
Kevin Hassett
Right.
- [56:04]
Jeffrey Sachs
Yeah.
- [56:05]
Saagar Enjeti
In terms of what we're talking about here, we're talking about tens of millions of dollars that are being spent for this gigantic arena. Call me a buzzkill. Don't care. Because it's all put in the veneer of it's all about Trump himself and America. 250 so I'm just. Look, all I can say is I'm trying to take a step back and say, yeah, the bicentennial it was a bad year, too. So it's not, you know, like, even though these are supposed to have some sort of reverence and all this, like, I think we'll be all right in the end of it. But, yeah, it's just. It made me sad. It actually made me saddest. Looking at the original one, the 150th birthday, and just looking at the way that they celebrated that at the time and their genuine reverence for the founding and, like, the intellectual backbone of the nation. I have a 1903 Atlas in my house, which was printed by the Philadelphia Inquirer. I found at a bookstore, antique bookstore, the level of time and effort that they spent on the founding history of the United States, of the myth, the origins, and all of it. And yes, it has many problems, none of which were acknowledged in the atlas, I will definitely grant you that. But it was clear to me. And they're actually well fingered. You can see some of the original owners, they spent a lot of time on this section. The amount of time that people spent and actually wanted to celebrate the founding and the birth of the nation at the 150th birthday or even at that time. I'm talking about 1903. It would shock the average young person, I think, today. And so that's really what depresses me, is we're gonna have gladiator fights, like literal bread and circus.
- [57:32]
Krystal Ball
Without the bread.
- [57:33]
Saagar Enjeti
Without the bread. You're right, because everything is so ridiculously expensive. Anybody else driving? July 4th, I'm excited to see how expensive gas is all the way up the I95 corridor. That's what kind of really sticks with me, is the cultural reflection, because this is who we are. We are the ufc. Right? We are the UFC on the South Lawn. We are in the social media era. No reverence for education, for our founding, to even talk, or to feel excited about where the nation is going. The only thing I can console myself with is that's kind of how the bicentennial was, too. 1976. You know, you don't have to read a book to know it was a horrible year. And there were a lot of same questions, I think, swirling in the air. We got through it. I'm sure we'll get through it now. But I think it's a genuine reflection of who we are. I really do. From the artists to our culture to the UFC to Trump himself.
- [58:22]
Krystal Ball
I mean, those images are too perfect. I saw somebody say that the White House now looks like, like a six. Like a shuttered Six Flags that they're destroying because between the, you know, UFC cage or whatever that's being constructed, that looks like a roller coaster, defunct roller coaster to one entire side, just being complete and total rubble. As Trump constructs his ballroom bunker, slash military hospital, which, which he's obsessed with. I mean, he's truly obsessed with, like, this is not just a liberal talking point. I think it was. The Washington Post did an analysis of all the things that he said recently, and the thing that he brings up the most is the fricking ballroom. He talks about that certainly more than gas prices, inflation, the, I don't know, the war in Iran, the ballroom. And I think a big part of it is actually the, the military hospital seems to be a particular fixation now because he, like many, you know, absolute narcissistic people, is obsessed with his own longevity and like, imagines that he's going to live forever and sort of reign over us for eternity from this, this impenetrable bunker that he is constructing. But, you know, he feels the need to build these monuments and celebrations to himself. I think it's embarrassing anytime an adult, like, demands other adults celebrate their birthday. Like, that's just, to me, an embarrassing thing to do. And he's demanding the entire freaking world celebrate his own birthday. That is a real insight into his ego. But he feels the need to build these monuments and host these celebrations to himself because I think he's very fearful that at the end of his life he won't be celebrated in the way that he has always craved. That in the end, the consensus opinion will be that he and his presidency was a, a absolute disaster for the United States. So he's trying to leave these impressions in stone with his monuments and his name on this and name on that, and physically remaking the White House itself as a sort of cheat code to leave his mark on the world. But yeah, you're right, it looks exactly like what America is today. I hope that we come through it, but I do think we have some existential risks that weren't present in 1976. I mean, AI being the prominent one, the advent of AUT autonomous killer robots. Obviously climate change has moved quite a long. We have so much global instability in a nuclear armed world where nuclear proliferation is only going to accelerate. I think we all believe that's the logic that has been created. So we are facing some truly existential risks at a time when the population is dumbed down on algorithmic social media and reality TV.
- [61:09]
Kevin Hassett
Correct.
- [61:10]
Saagar Enjeti
Last thing. C6 couldn't not mention this. Trump is currently pushing for a $250 bill with his face on it apartment because it will be the highest, I think, denominated currency in terms of the bill. Also a reminder that it now takes 250 bucks to buy what used to cost $100. So there you go. Also a great reminder of what America 250 is all about. 250 bucks. You know, anybody else going to the grocery store recently? And again, just being like, what? What?
- [61:41]
Krystal Ball
Forget about it. You're lucky to get away with $250. Yeah, it's crazy.
- [61:44]
Saagar Enjeti
For the last five years, every single time you go, it just ticks up and up and up. Now I'm researching how to learn how to make my own kids fruit leather. All right, this is where things are now. All right, we got Brandon Weickert standing by. Let's get.
- [62:16]
Jacob Goldstein
Now streaming on Paramount, the acclaimed series from executive producer Lena Waithe reaches its final chapter. The Shy. For seven seasons, these stories, these streets, this community have stayed with us.
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Saagar Enjeti
Us.
- [62:28]
Jacob Goldstein
Now it all leads to this. As friendships are tested, families evolve, and secrets refuse to stay buried, one thing is certain. The Shy is more than just a series. It's a legacy. Don't miss the final season of the Shy. Now streaming on the Paramount Premium plan. This is Julian Edelman from Games with Names. As a fellow dude, do you ever get that not so fresh feeling in your butt? That's because you're probably using the dry stuff to wipe wet. Extra large flushable dude wipes. Get what toilet paper leaves behind in your behind. You wouldn't clean the tail end of your truck with dry paper towels. So why would you wipe with dry toilet paper? Wetter just cleans better. There are no more dingleberries, no more itch and irritation. Just a deep, deep down the seam. Confident clean. So don't fumble the ball with toilet paper. Stop being an A hole to your B hole. Drop the toilet paper. Available on Amazon and major retailers nationwide. Dude wipes best clean. Pants down.
- [63:38]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway for you. Save days are here now through June 23rd. Find hot deals throughout the store and earn four times a place points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Tostitos, Cascade Tide, Red Bull, Sparkling Ice, and Ferrero. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings. When you shop in store or online for easy pickup or delivery, restrictions apply. See the website for full terms and conditions.
- [64:09]
Krystal Ball
This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.