6/19/25: Ted Cruz Dog Walked By Tucker, Theo Von Warns Of Bibi, Majority Support Iran War, Regime Change Ignorance

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar" Episode (June 19, 2025)

Podcast Information:

• Title: Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
• Hosts: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
• Episode: 6/19/25
• Release Date: June 19, 2025
• Description: Breaking Points is a fearless anti-establishment multi-week YouTube and Podcast that holds the powerful to account, hosted by Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti.

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1. Introduction

The episode begins with brief segment introductions and advertisements, which are subsequently skipped to delve into the core discussions.

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2. Ted Cruz's Interview with Tucker Carlson and the Anti-Semitism Debate

Overview: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti analyze a pivotal interview between Senator Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson, focusing on Cruz’s staunch support for Israel and the ensuing accusations of anti-Semitism.

Key Points:

• Ted Cruz's Pledge to Defend Israel:

  • Cruz states that one of his sworn pledges upon entering the Senate was to be the main defender of the state of Israel.
  • Quote (02:27): "This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else."

• Accusations of Anti-Semitism:

  • Cruz accuses Tucker Carlson of being obsessed with Israel, which Cruz interprets as an anti-Semitic implication.
  • Quote (04:44): "I have to go back and... he's the one that's been with the same people... he's being used as a tool to support their own country and their foreign policy."

• Discussion on AIPAC:

  • The conversation shifts to the role of AIPAC, with Cruz denying any direct ties between the organization and foreign government lobbying.
  • Quote (08:15): "Well, I don't think I'm obsessed with Israel, okay."

• Religious Justifications:

  • Cruz cites biblical mandates to support Israel, which the hosts critique as conflating religious texts with modern political policy.
  • Quote (12:19): "You're a Christian. I am allowed to weigh in on this."

Analysis: Krystal and Saagar condemn Cruz’s use of religious texts to justify political stances, arguing that it undermines nuanced debate and promotes a conflation of Jewish identity with Israeli state policy. They highlight the problematic nature of accusing critics of anti-Semitism when discussing Israel's role in foreign policy.

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal Ball (03:44): "You're not talking about Chinese, you're not talking about Japanese, you're not talking about the Brits, you're not talking about the French. The question what about the Jews?"
• Saagar Enjeti (07:03): "And they brag about that all day long. Right. They're like, oh, look, even Arab speaks. Yeah."

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3. AIPAC and Foreign Lobbying Concerns

Overview: The hosts delve deeper into the influence of AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) and question its role as a foreign lobby without proper registration.

Key Points:

• AIPAC's Influence:

  • AIPAC is portrayed as exerting significant influence over U.S. foreign policy towards Israel.
  • Quote (10:20): "AIPAC demands Democrats, stand with Israel. I don't know how much evidence that I need to shove in your face..."

• Calls for Regulation:

  • The lack of requirement for AIPAC to register as a foreign lobby raises concerns about transparency and accountability.
  • Quote (10:56): "Because whatever it is that the current Israeli government... that's how Pro-foreign lobbying works."

Analysis: Krystal and Saagar argue that AIPAC operates with undue influence, effectively acting as a foreign lobby without adhering to the same regulatory standards as other foreign entities. This, they suggest, creates an imbalance in political advocacy and undermines democratic processes.

Notable Quotes:

• Sohrab Amari (10:44): "Yeah, and there's all this other stuff. But that's what they hold up, right?"
• Krystal Ball (08:49): "Listen, I came into Congress 13 years ago with the stated intention of being the leading defender of Israel in the United States Senate. I've worked every day to do that."

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4. Religious Justifications for Foreign Policy

Overview: The discussion turns to the use of religious scriptures, particularly the Bible, to justify unwavering support for Israel, highlighting the problematic nature of such justifications in political discourse.

Key Points:

• Biblical References:

  • Cruz references Genesis to justify support for Israel, which the hosts critique for lacking contextual understanding.
  • Quote (11:58): "Growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, those who bless Israel will be blessed..."

• Conflation of Religion and Politics:

  • Krystal challenges the blending of religious mandates with foreign policy, emphasizing the dangers of using theology to influence national decisions.
  • Quote (13:00): "Is the nation in Genesis. Is that the same as the country run by Benjamin Netanyahu right now?"

Analysis: Krystal and Saagar point out that using religious texts to mandate political stances can lead to policies driven by ideology rather than pragmatic governance. They warn against the potential for religious zealotry to justify aggressive foreign policies, drawing parallels with historical atrocities committed in the name of religion.

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal Ball (12:12): "We are commanded to support Israel."
• Saagar Enjeti (16:12): "Any particular biblical line, apparently in this dispensationalism and end times eschatology..."

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5. Polling on Support for War with Iran

Overview: The hosts examine recent polling data regarding American support for military action against Iran, critically analyzing the framing of these polls and the underlying public sentiment.

Key Points:

• General Support for Preventing Iran’s Nuclear Capability:

  • Quote (38:06): "79% of adults agree on that. They agree with Donald Trump. Iran cannot get a nuclear weapon."

• Public Opinion on Military Involvement:

  • Mixed sentiments with significant portions of the population unsure about military strikes.
  • Quote (38:06): "When you get 79% of Democrats, Democrats, and 83% of Republicans agreeing on anything, you know that that position is the very clear majority in this country."

• Framing of the Poll Questions:

  • The hosts argue that polls are often framed around nuclear concerns rather than broader implications of war.
  • Quote (43:06): "When I look further into this poll and the results that they got... the idea of the nukes is fake, invented..."

Analysis: Krystal and Saagar contend that polling data is manipulated through the framing of questions to garner support for specific military actions. By emphasizing the threat of nuclear weapons, they argue that the true costs and broader consequences of war are obscured from public discourse.

Notable Quotes:

• Krystal Ball (38:48): "And here, they say, do you think the US Military should get involved in the conflict?"
• Saagar Enjeti (39:08): "It's like, well, Mr. President, you can't have peace if Iran has a nuclear weapon."

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6. Regime Change in Iran: Expert Insights with Sohrab Amari

Overview: Sohrab Amari, a former neocon and current realist expert on Iran, provides an in-depth analysis of why regime change operations in Iran would be catastrophic.

Key Points:

• Complexity and Size of Iran:

  • Iran's population of approximately 90 million and its diverse ethnic makeup make regime change highly unstable.
  • Quote (51:03): "Iran is a large and extremely complex society... how much the Iranians, how many people, they can recruit if the United States is forced into a ground operation..."

• Historical Attempts and Failures:

  • Past attempts at regime change, such as in Iraq, have led to prolonged conflicts and instability.
  • Quote (61:55): "There was a constitutional revolution in 1905... the parliamentary democracy for a while after World War II..."

• Potential Outcomes of Regime Collapse:

  • Collapse would lead to a power vacuum, increased militancy, and prolonged instability in the region.
  • Quote (66:55): "There's so much to say about it... a government, a rump state that can only control the capital... spreading instability all over the place."

Analysis: Amari emphasizes that the inherent complexities within Iran—political, social, and ethnic—make any foreign-led regime change a recipe for disaster. He draws parallels to Afghanistan and Iraq, where such interventions led to unintended and prolonged conflicts, highlighting that Iran lacks the political culture necessary to stabilize after regime collapse.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Yamas (54:54): "It's just a matter of taking that with a big chunk of salt, not a grain of salt..."
• Sohrab Amari (65:23): "The regime collapse in Iran is gonna be devastating for everyone."

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7. Theo Von's Commentary on the Iran-Israel Conflict

Overview: The hosts discuss a rare appearance by comedian Theo Von, who voices concerns over the potential war between Israel and Iran, reflecting broader public apprehension.

Key Points:

• Public Skepticism:

  • Von expresses distrust in Israeli leadership and fears of being dragged into an unnecessary war.
  • Quote (28:30): "I don't trust the Israel leader at all... I'm not a soldier, so I might."

• Importance of Independent Voices:

  • Krystal and Saagar commend Theo Von for speaking out against the war, recognizing the need for diverse perspectives.
  • Quote (30:36): "They cared so much about the views of the bros and the podcast and all this other stuff."

Analysis: Theo Von’s candid remarks highlight the unease among Americans regarding foreign interventions, particularly in the Middle East. The hosts appreciate his bravery in addressing these issues, noting that such independent voices are crucial in countering mainstream pro-war narratives.

Notable Quotes:

• Theo Von (28:30): "I don't trust that guy being Netanyahu. Like, I just. It's very convenient."

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8. Closing Remarks and Future Coverage

Overview: The episode concludes with discussions about upcoming shows and additional topics, including an upcoming appearance by Ro Khanna to discuss the War Powers Resolution.

Key Points:

• Upcoming Features:

  • The hosts tease future episodes featuring extensive coverage and special guests.
  • Quote (69:44): "We got to get it wrapped, get the headlines, get it out."

• Final Analysis:

  • Krystal and Saagar reiterate the importance of nuanced understanding and independent media in shaping public opinion against unnecessary wars.
  • Quote (70:14): "Meds are prescribed at provider's discretion."

Analysis: The hosts emphasize their commitment to providing in-depth, critical analysis of current events, particularly focusing on U.S. foreign policy and its implications. They encourage listeners to stay informed and engaged through their independent media platform.

Notable Quotes:

• Sagar Enjeti (71:09): "There was a recent social media trend... Chumba casino has over 100 online casino style games."

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9. Conclusion

Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti deliver a comprehensive and critical examination of Ted Cruz's support for Israel, the influence of AIPAC, the problematic use of religious justifications in politics, and the dangers of regime change in Iran. Through expert insights and analysis, the episode underscores the need for independent media voices in challenging mainstream narratives and advocating for informed, nuanced public discourse.

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Overall Highlights:

• Critique of Ted Cruz’s Israel Policy: The episode thoroughly dissects Cruz’s unwavering support for Israel, highlighting inconsistencies and potential anti-Semitic implications.
• AIPAC’s Influence: Detailed exploration of AIPAC’s role in shaping U.S. foreign policy without proper regulatory oversight.
• Religious Justifications: Examination of how religious texts are used to justify political stances, raising concerns about the merger of faith and policy.
• Polling Insights: Analysis of public opinion polls reveals complexities in support for military action against Iran, emphasizing the importance of question framing.
• Expert Analysis on Iran: Sohrab Amari provides a sobering perspective on the impracticality and dangers of regime change operations in Iran.
• Independent Media’s Role: The hosts highlight the significance of alternative voices like Theo Von in providing balanced critiques of foreign policy.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Krystal Ball (04:03): "You're asking the questions, Tucker. You're asking, why are the Jews controlling our foreign policy?"
• Saagar Enjeti (07:03): "I actually know something about population. 25% of that population is not Jewish."
• Sohrab Amari (16:12): "And it's like, we gotta convert to some other religion if that's what's commanded, because that is monstrously, outrageously grotesque."
• Sagar Enjeti (38:48): "There you go."
• Tom Yamas (57:11): "It has a huge number of women who are preponderance of the STEM graduates, etc."

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Conclusion: This episode of "Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar" provides a critical lens on U.S. foreign policy, particularly regarding Iran and Israel, emphasizing the necessity for informed, independent media to challenge established narratives and advocate for policies grounded in pragmatic and ethical considerations.

Transcript

[Jenny Garth]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Taking over the helm of NBC nightly.

[Krystal Ball]

News, a 75 year old broadcast.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's a great responsibility.

[Tom Yamas]

Good evening, I'm Tom Yamas. You have to go out there to.

[Krystal Ball]

Bring people at home. Closer to the store.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Wildfires continue to be a threat. With that massive hurricane comes the massive response. The best reporters in our business know how to listen. And when you listen, you get the truth. For NBC News, NBC News, I'm Tom Galamas. That's what we do every night.

[Sohrab Amari]

NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Evenings on NBC.

[Krystal Ball]

And here we have a specimen from the early 2000s, a legacy investing platform. Please don't touch the exhibit folks. It could crash.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Ready to step out of the financial history [e-mail] you can invest in almost everything, stocks, bonds, options and more. You could even put your cash to work at an industry leading 4.1% APY. Leave your clunky outdated platform behind. Go to public.com and fund your account in five minutes or less. Paid for by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Full disclosures at public.com/disclosures.

[Jenny Garth]

This is Jenny Garth from I Do Part 2. Can't afford Ozempic? Try WeGovy from Future Health. Just $199 and FDA approved for weight loss. No insurance or tricky syringes needed, just results. Visit futurehealth.com that's future without the E. And start losing weight this week. Future Health weight loss data based on independent studies sponsored by Future Health. Future Health is not a healthcare services provider. Meds are prescribed at providers discretion.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Sohrab Amari]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Sohrab Amari]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] all right, let's turn now to the full Tucker Carlson Ted Cruz interview. I got to tell you, this is probably maybe one of the top five moments of my life was watching Ted Cruz get owned completely into the sun. This clip has been more viral than any news clip that I have seen in a long time. I'm talking left, right? It's.

[Sohrab Amari]

Yeah. And I have to say, listen, I understand why the right loves this guy. It's fun when he's on your side. Well, this was a treat to watch, I have to say, the whole thing.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I'm glad to have you with us at least for a moment. There's a reason he's been a generational talent for 30 years. Let's start, though. There are several moments of this which I think are really important. First and foremost is actually getting to the core of Ted Cruz's ideology, of his explanations and of the vicious tactics that a lot of people who are Israel supporters use to shut down the debate around striking Iran. First and foremost is anti Semitism. Now, you're gonna watch here in this clip where Ted Cruz says that one of his pledges, sworn pledges, when entering the United States Senate, it was to be the main defender of the state of Israel. And then also accused Tucker Carlson at the same time of saying he is obsessed with Israel. Every accusation is a confession. Let's take a listen.

[Tucker Carlson]

It's just interesting because what you're now describing in a very defensive way, I will say is foreign influence over our politics.

[Krystal Ball]

No.

[Tucker Carlson]

And you began, and it's so transparently obvious to everybody. I don't know why you would be embarrassed of it. You've said that you are sincerely for Israel. I believe you. I don't think you have some weird agenda. You seem to.

[Krystal Ball]

By the way. By the way, Tucker, it's a very weird thing, the obsession with Israel when we're talking about foreign countries.

[Tucker Carlson]

It's hardly an obsession.

[Krystal Ball]

You're not talking about Chinese, you're not talking about Japanese, you're not talking about the Brits, you're not talking about the French. The question what about the Jews? What about the Jews?

[Tucker Carlson]

Oh, I'm anti Semite now, Senator.

[Krystal Ball]

You're asking the questions, Tucker. You're asking, why are the Jews controlling our foreign policy? That's what you just asked.

[Tucker Carlson]

Hardly saying that. And I have.

[Krystal Ball]

That is exactly what you just said.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, actually, I can speak for myself and tell you what I am saying.

[Krystal Ball]

Good.

[Tucker Carlson]

On behalf, not simply of myself, but on my many Jewish friends who would have the same questions. Which is to what extent? And it's interesting, you're trying to derail my questions by calling me an anti Semite, which you are.

[Krystal Ball]

I did not.

[Tucker Carlson]

Of course you are. And rather than be honorable enough to say it right to my face, you are, in a squeezy feline way, implying it or just asking Questions about the Jews. I'm not asking questions about the Jews. I have. There's nothing to do with Jews or Judaism. It has to do with foreign government.

[Krystal Ball]

Isn't Israel controlling our foreign policy? That's not about the Jews, you said.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm asking.

[Krystal Ball]

And by the way, you're the one that just called me, I think, a sleazy feline. So let's be clear.

[Tucker Carlson]

Sleazy? To imply that I'm an anti Semite, which you just did.

[Krystal Ball]

No, I just said, why is that the only question you're asking? You answer it. Give me another reason. If you're not an anti Semite, give me another reason why the obsession is Israel.

[Tucker Carlson]

I am in no sense obsessed with Israel. We are on the brink of war with Iran. And so these are valid questions, but you're not just. If I can finish. You asked me why I'm obsessed with Israel three minutes after telling me that when you first ran for Congress, you elucidated one of your main goals, which is to defend Israel. Yes, and I'm the one who's obsessed with Israel. I don't see a lawmaker's job as defending the interests of a foreign government, period. Any government, including the ones that my ancestors come from. So that's my position. That does not make me an anti Semite. And shame on you for suggesting otherwise. And I mean that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, that is exactly. That is how that should be handled, is that this guy says, one of my sworn pledges is to enter the United States Senate and be a sworn defender of the state of Israel.

[Sohrab Amari]

Be the strongest defender of the state.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Of Israel, and then says, you are obsessed with Israel. You know why we're not talking about the uk look, if the UK wants to drag us into some shitty war, I'll talk about the UK all day long. If Japan wants to drag us into a shitty war, I'll talk about that.

[Sohrab Amari]

Well, and he says, why aren't you talking about Iran and the mullus? Because we're not giving them. We're not giving them the bombs. We're talking about the country that we send billions of dollars to every year that has helped persuade our president. And again, he's a willing participant to get into an insane war. Of course we're gonna talk about that. And I love that he calls him out on how he's just trying to suggest it. Fucking man up and say it to my face.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Totally.

[Sohrab Amari]

I cannot tell you how many times I remember Dean Phillips doing this. In particular when I inter. Where? Yeah, it's just. Well, why Are you so interested in the Jews?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes.

[Sohrab Amari]

First of all, no one said anything about the Jews. We're talking about a foreign government. And actually, thank you very much. It's quite anti Semitic to conflate every Jew with this foreign government. If you want to talk about actual anti Semitism. So it felt so good to see him call out his sleazy feline suggestion here instead of just listen. If you want to call me an anti Semite, do it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Sohrab Amari]

Say it with your chest.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Israel is both a multiethnic incredible democracy or it's a Jewish state. And it's like, well, which is it actually? 25% of your own population? Oh, yeah, by the way, I actually know something about population. 25% of that population is not Jewish. All right? And they brag about that all day long. Right. They're like, oh, look, even Arab speaks. Yeah.

[Sohrab Amari]

And they're being locked out of Bob.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And all this other stuff. Yeah, but that's what they hold up, right? It's a multi ethnic democracy. They got better rights here than they do in any other country in the world. It's like, well, you're just talking about the Jews, right? It's like, you can't have it both ways. And I was so glad to see this like defensation on the anti Semitism question because they are the ones who use the anti Semitic tropes. You can't talk about the state of Israel without being then an anti Semite yourself. And look, this is part of a years long campaign and especially post October 7th, to conflate Zionism and Judaism itself with the state, which by the way, is anti Semitic. Remember Joe Biden? Not a Jew in the world would be safe if the state of Israel did not exist. There are more Jews living in America, okay? There's a huge Jewish population in America.

[Sohrab Amari]

There's no place that is more unsafe for Jews than Israel.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. At this point.

[Theo Vaughn]

Right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

In terms of being bombed in the middle. So, yeah, would you rather live in New York City or would you rather live in Tel Aviv right now? All right, let's get to AIPAC then, because this was also an incredible moment because Tucker asks Ted Cruz whether AIPAC is a foreign lobby and why it's not required to be registered as such. And here you see Ted Cruz twist himself into knots about aipac. Let's take a listen.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, I don't think I'm obsessed with Israel, okay.

[Krystal Ball]

But I think a lot of people are and like the question, Israel spies on us. Well, so does every other country. Why are you Mad at Israel, I guess.

[Tucker Carlson]

No, no, I'm, I'm, I'm hardly the one who's. I've never taken money from the Israel lobby.

[Krystal Ball]

Have you taken money from the Israel, from aipac? So AIPAC raises a lot of money for me, but it's actually a misnomer because the people who raise money are individuals. So it's not the PAC itself, but they're individual members who believe in the American Israeli friendship of Foreign lobby. No, it's an American lobby. It's the apac. Stands for the America Israeli Political Action.

[Tucker Carlson]

What does it lobby for?

[Krystal Ball]

So to be honest, not a whole lot effectively. Listen, I came into Congress 13 years ago with the stated intention of being the leading defender of Israel in the United States Senate. I've worked every day to do that. Aipac. A lot of times AIPAC I wish were much more effective. Like their hooks on one of the two. Or the fear swamp of terrified of AIPAC and aipac.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm not terrified of AIPAC at all. You're the one who seems a little uncomfortable when I'm asking.

[Krystal Ball]

No, not uncomfortable at all.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm just asking what AIPAC does. My understanding, having known a lot of people, is that it lobbies on behalf of the Israeli government.

[Krystal Ball]

Wrong.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Oh actually and by the way, you want some evidence of that? Can we put C6, please? Here up on the screen here we have a story from our David Dan, just, you know, from yesterday. Ryan's on that byline and Ryan Grimm is on that byline as well. AIPAC demands Democrats, quote, stand with Israel. Okay, I don't know how much evidence that I need to shove in your face to show literal direct coordination between AIPAC and the state of Israel. Including photos post October 7th showing AIPAC members in the same room as Benjamin Netanyahu in Israel or the number of conferences that they hold here in Washington D.C. and in across the United States, on every college campus in America to basically turn US citizens into foreign lobbyists. And by the way, fine, okay, but then just be registered under the law under far. Which is exactly the point that Tucker makes.

[Sohrab Amari]

I know lots of people who lobby for foreign currencies. Like I'm related to some of them. I think his brother, they have to register. Why doesn't aipac? And then he asked Ted Cruz a really simple question. Like cuz Ted Cruz tries to. Oh well, they're not just representing what the Netanyahu government wants. He's like, okay, give me an example. One example. Of course he can't do it. Yeah. Oh Well, I have to go back and. Yeah, because there isn't one. Because there isn't one. Because whatever it is that the current Israeli government, which has been led by Benjamin Netanyahu for quite a while now, you know, off and on for decades, at this point, whatever they want, that's what AIPAC signs up for. How is that not foreign lobbying?

[Sagar Enjeti]

So. Exactly.

[Sohrab Amari]

There you go.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Now let's get to my personal favorite. Now look, I'm going to put my cards on the table. I'm an atheist. So anytime people start citing scripture to justify their behavior, like in a national context, I'm getting pretty skeptical. But this shit, I mean, look, I grew up around these people, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. But Tucker asked Ted Cruz why he supports Israel. He says two reasons. First, and he starts to cite the Bible. And not just citing the Bible, there's this school, I'm trying to get up to speed on this. So Christians, I apologize, which I believe is called dispensationalism, which is basically like taking the Bibles words, applying them is to be literally true. And in particular here, Israel, as it's mentioned in the Bible, is conflating that with the actual nation state of Israel created in 1948. So watch here. Ted Cruz cite the Bible then can't even quote which verse of the Bible that he is saying. And for the primary reason that he supports the state of Israel. Let's take a listen.

[Krystal Ball]

Growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who curse Israel will be cursed. And from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things.

[Tucker Carlson]

Of those who bless the government of Israel.

[Krystal Ball]

Those who bless Israel is what it says. It doesn't say the government of, it says the nation of Israel. So that's in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe that.

[Tucker Carlson]

Where is that?

[Krystal Ball]

I can find it to you. I don't have the scripture off the tip of mine. You pull out the phone and use the.

[Tucker Carlson]

It's in Genesis. But. So you're quoting a Bible phrase, you don't have context for it. You don't know where in the Bible it is. But that's like your theology. I'm confused. What does that even mean? Tucker, I'm a Christian. I want to know what you're talking about.

[Krystal Ball]

Where does my support for Israel come from? Number one, because biblically we are commanded to support Israel.

[Tucker Carlson]

But number two, hold on, hold on. You're a senator and now you're throwing out theology and I am a Christian. And I am allowed to weigh in on this. We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel.

[Krystal Ball]

We are commanded to support Israel. And we're.

[Tucker Carlson]

What does that mean? Israel?

[Krystal Ball]

We're told those who bless Israel will be blessed.

[Tucker Carlson]

But what. Hold on. Define Israel.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is important.

[Tucker Carlson]

Are you kidding? This is a majority Christian country.

[Krystal Ball]

Define Israel. Do you not know what Israel is? That would be the country you've asked, like, 49 questions about.

[Tucker Carlson]

So that's what Genesis. That's what God is talking about, Israel.

[Krystal Ball]

The nation of Israel.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yes. And he's. So is that the current borders, the current leadership? He's talking about the political entity called Israel.

[Krystal Ball]

He's talking about the nation of Israel. Yet nations exist. And he's discussing a nation. A nation was the people of Israel.

[Tucker Carlson]

Is the nation in Genesis. Is that the same as the country run by Benjamin Netanyahu right now?

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, it is. And by the way, it's not run by Benjamin Netanyahu as a dictator. It's a democratic country that elected.

[Tucker Carlson]

He's the prime minister.

[Krystal Ball]

Right, but just. Just like, you know, America is the country run by Donald Trump. No, actually, the American people elected Donald Trump. The same principle is silly.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm talking about the political entity of modern Israel.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes. And that is.

[Tucker Carlson]

You believe that's what God was talking about in Genesis?

[Krystal Ball]

I do.

[Tucker Carlson]

But what country's existed since when?

[Krystal Ball]

For thousands of years now. There was a time when it didn't exist, and then it was recreated just over seven years.

[Tucker Carlson]

I'm saying. I think most people understand that line in Genesis to refer to the Jewish people, God's chosen people.

[Krystal Ball]

That's not what it says.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I mean, this is batshit crazy. I mean, I'm just gonna, you know, remind people of Glenn Greenwald's joke here on our show. We think Iran is a theocracy.

[Sohrab Amari]

Right? What?

[Sagar Enjeti]

All right, give me some. Mullah is the shit that's running my country.

[Sohrab Amari]

Well, and here's the thing is, like, it's funny, but it's.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, it's real serious.

[Sohrab Amari]

It's deadly serious. Go back to that text that Mike Huckabee sent to Trump, that Trump then publicized the number of people in this government, including our ambassador to Israel and our secretary of defense, who have this, like, end times theology around this. Apparently, who knows how many senators and members of Congress share this view, as preposterous and absurd and disturbing as it is offered by Ted Cruz, that you are commanded as a Christian to do what Bibi Netanyahu wants you to do. That's his position. Okay, then you couple that with the absolute religious zealot psychos that command so much power in Netanyahu's government, and you put that together with very clear indications that Trump himself has some sort of messiah complex after narrowly escaping death in Butler, Pennsylvania. As if this isn't terrifying enough, the fact that you think that you have people involved, powerful, the most powerful people involved, who think they are commanded by the Bible or divinely destined to effectuate some outcome here, that shit terrifies me.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Oh, me too.

[Sohrab Amari]

And so I know the Christians went in on what specifically that passage in the Bible is. I hear half from Grok that it most commonly Israel refers the collective descendants of Jacob's 12 sons, not the frickin nation state that was created in 1948 arbitrarily, by the way, by the United States of America. I'll let them do that. I just object to any biblical or religious text being used to justify wars or foreign policy or national policy whatsoever. That is where I get off. Regardless of how you want to interpret.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Any particular biblical line, apparently in this dispensationalism and end times eschatology, like these are. Look, again, I am not qualified to talk about this. And it's just not even really worth it. I would just look at it and be like, this is preposterous. Like you have a United States senator here. I mean, you know, this is, look, I guess to go all religious and 2006 atheist. So what did Christians do in 1947 before Israel existed? Like, who were they commanded to, you know, to support? Like, what the fuck? I can't even get my mind around this stuff. But you know, this maybe is a. I don't know. I know they don't listen, but I want people to know in Israel, they're laughing at you. The secular Jews who make up a huge portion of Israeli society, they think you're kooks and they think you're crazy. The secular, highly educated Jews who live in New York and Los Angeles and Philadelphia or whatever, they think, they look at you like, you know, they're liberal Democrats, they think this is gross and weird. And yet, you know, the only thing they're really using you for is your biblical interpretation to support a foreign state. When I went to Israel, I think 90% of the people on my plane were people like this, you know, from like evangelical churches. And when, if you have ever been to Jerusalem, I mean, you know, it's full on like earpiece in pastor in the front and they go to the cliff or wherever where the Apocalypse is gonna. I've seen this stuff with my own eyes, and they believe it. They think it's serious. And when they're there, by the way, the Israeli government uses them as pawns for American support. Now, look, they're not gonna listen because, you know, they're listening to their churches and all this other. But the one thing I would at least ask is, if you're religious and you have pride in your own beliefs, shouldn't you wonder if you're being taken advantage of? I promise you, I've seen. I've met these people. They think you're a joke. They're laughing at you and using you as a tool to support their own country and their foreign policy. That's really degrading, in my opinion.

[Sohrab Amari]

I mean, just what kind of a religion would command you to support, to endlessly support, with no criticism, a country that is actively doing a genocide? Because that is a religion you should not want to have anything to do with, if that's the real command that you must. Endlessly. But it is. I mean, at this point, there's really no dispute. You ask any legitimate scholar of genocide around the world, go look at what's going on in Gaza. See, I mean, we haven't even been able to cover the fact that these aid massacres are still going on day after day, where they lure in innocent Palestinians and then desperate, hungry, starving Palestinians and then murder them as they try to seek some basic nourishment. Your God tells you to support that, that you gotta convert to some other religion if that's what's commanded, because that is monstrously, outrageously grotesque. And that is where religious zealotry, I'm sorry, is such a cancer. It is such a cancer. Because then you think that you have some sort of divine right and commandment to commit horrific atrocities and turn your brain off because God commanded you to. I mean, there's a reason why, if you look throughout history, so many of the worst crimes and atrocities are committed in the name of some sort of outrageous religious fanaticism. And that is one of the elements here that is deadly serious. And, you know, I really appreciate actually this exchange with Tucker, because I'm not a Christian. He is. So for him to be in there and for Candace Owens to be out there also, I saw her doing her explanation, saying, no, this is not what the biblical text means, and it is a grotesque absurdity for you to interpret it, that your commandment as a Christian is to endlessly support whatever the policy of Bibi Netanyahu is like total Insanity.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, whatever. I mean, again, look, they're not gonna listen. They probably don't even watch the show. They're watching Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh or whatever. So good luck to you. You want to continue to be a tool of a foreign government. I mean, again, they're laughing their asses off at you. I can promise. I've seen it inside of that country. But whatever, it's your choice. It's a free country. Last thing here, clip that we'll show everybody is about Donald Trump and the meaning of America First. This back and forth between Tucker and Ted Cruz. Let's take a listen.

[Krystal Ball]

You engage in reckless rhetoric with no facts. And to be clear, I'm not calling.

[Tucker Carlson]

For the overthrow of a Letterman.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You are.

[Krystal Ball]

You put out a newsletter attacking Donald Trump and calling him complicit. Yes, you have.

[Tucker Carlson]

And by the way, I've campaigned for Donald Trump. This is like after anti Semitism. This is the last refuge. You're an anti Semit and you hate Trump.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay, I love Trump.

[Krystal Ball]

I will read you put out a whole newsletter saying Trump has abandoned America first. And here's what Trump said in response. Well, considering that I'm the one that developed America first, and considering that the term wasn't used until I came along, I think I'm the one who decides that for those people who say they want peace, you can't have peace if Iran has a nuclear weapon. So for all of those wonderful people who don't want to do anything about Iran having a nuclear weapon, that's not peace.

[Tucker Carlson]

That was directed at you, man. This is. You got me busted. No, I'm just saying my views. Look, I like Trump. I campaigned for Trump. I know Trump. I talked to him last night. I'm not against Trump, and you know that I.

[Krystal Ball]

But you're against his fore policy.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So, yeah, look, that's a very revealing exchange. And look, Ted Cruz is correct. Trump does operationally get to disagree.

[Sohrab Amari]

Yeah, this is the one point he got it against Tucker, to be honest.

[Sagar Enjeti]

With you, because it's a political point and it's one which is Trumpian. But again, I'm not gonna let sit here and just let the record say that Donald Trump gets to define America first at an actual level when it's a movement which has existed since the 1920s. In any. This preposterous. Operationally, it may be true, and that's actually a separate question. But that's the part that really bugs me is the way that it is being weaponized in that form. And also, you know, look, there are at least some MAGA folks out there who probably did vote for Donald Trump cuz he's anti war or appeared anti war, believed he was anti war. Maybe not all of them at a sizable percentage, 10, 15, 20%. Sure, I'm claiming it is a majority. But what's wrong with them for protesting against us and say, hey, this is not what I believed. A lot of Biden supporters got upset at Biden over Israel. They're like, hey, that's not what I thought was gonna happen. A lot of George W. Bush supporters got mad at him over the war in Iraq. It's perfectly fine, normal and Democratic small D to protest. Even if somebody is doing something, even if you did vote for them that you don't support or you don't like, because it doesn't conflict with the understanding of what you had when you went to Iraq.

[Sohrab Amari]

Well, what you're talking about is a normal functioning political system which we do not have. And I mean, that's the sad truth is like whether or not Tucker called Trump to apologize, it doesn't really matter if it's true unless he actually comes out and is like, no, I didn't do that, that's not what happened. Because then that just becomes facts and reality because Trump says that it is. You know, if you listen to the entire Tucker vs Ted debate, if you listen to the entirety of. I listen both to Tucker with Steve Bannon, Steve Bannon on with Tucker, I listened to all of those and the whole effort. And you hear this in Charlie Kirk's rhetoric as well, Marjorie Taylor Greene's rhetoric as well, is to say this is the true representation of what Trump really wants. And to the extent that he's not pursuing this path which is the most true to his intentions, beliefs and ambitions, it's because he's being tricked by this person or that person or the deep state or the neocons or whatever, that's where the battle is fought. Because Tucker knows. And if they didn't know, Trump demonstrated that when he went after Tucker and said he was kooky and said he needs to go get a television network because basically he's a has been. They know that the minute that they actually go against Trump, if you do anything other than signal in advance that at the end of the day you're gonna 100% bend the knee, then you're out. Then you become Liz Cheney, you become Adam Kinziger, you become Justin Amash, you become any number of the senators or members of Congress who are no longer senators or Members of Congress who've been consigned to the dustbin of history, you are excised from the movement and that's it. Your influence is over. Whatever perks you get, being in the Trump world and the Trump circle and having access to the President, all that stuff, it's done. So that's why they fight on that turf of, well, I am the true representation of what Trump in his all knowing brilliance, what he really wants. Which is why Steve Bannon is now running around telling Financial Times and other outlets too, like, listen, at the end of the day, if he has more intelligence than we do, then we're gonna go along. It's why when Bannon was out criticizing Elon at the beginning.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, and they told him to shut.

[Sohrab Amari]

Up and Trump told him shut up. He did, until Elon was Persona non grata and then he went back to it. That's the way that this works. That's why Charlie Kirk has turned, changed his tune. And Charlie Kirk was never critical of Trump, but he got a call from the White House saying, hey, tone it down. And he said, yes, sir, no problem at all.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Look, they're all the same and it's operational. It's the only way that you maintain your access and your ability. And that's the problem of trying to straddle these two worlds. You can be honest and you could say what you think, like me, but I can tell you my phone ain't ringing off the hook right now. My phone calls are going one way and there's not a lot of income and there's a lot of screw you that is happening right now. But that's the world. It is what it is and it's very unfortunate. But I also think it's important to show people and to even tell people, from my perspective of that is the only way that you can maintain influence within the system. It's really unfortunate.

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[Sagar Enjeti]

I guess there is a second way though, actually, and this is a good transition because we're now going to talk about Theo Vaughan is sometimes you become like this cultural and you become a big enough figure that some of the things that you say become something that the White House or others need to respond to. And so that's why when I saw this clip here of Theo Vaughn, somebody who I don't know if he voted for Trump, I don't know if he's ever said he attended his inauguration and he's had on he was hanging out.

[Sohrab Amari]

With Ivanka and Jared down to Marlowe Jared and Ivanka. Just had JD Vance on Just had.

[Sagar Enjeti]

JD Vance on Had JD Vance on before previously on the campaign the first major podcaster to have on Donald Trump. So you know, he's also somebody though who is not has been willing to at least speak out against Israel and its campaign in Gaza. But here you have a very, very interesting message like direct to camera. Pretty rare in my opinion from Theo on political events speaking out against a war with Iran. Let's take a listen.

[Theo Vaughn]

Trying to get us into a war with Iran or not. America, if Israel is trying to. I don't trust the Israel leader at all. I don't believe anything that guy says. And I. I don't think that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Our.

[Theo Vaughn]

Soldiers should have to go and defend stuff that they start. I'm not a soldier, so I might. I'm obviously speaking out of turn. I'm not even brave enough to serve, so there's that element. But that is kind of how I feel, I guess. And so it's like, yeah, when do I speak? When do I say that? You know, because it feels like they're trying to push Trump to go do that. And it's like, who makes that choice? Does he make that choice? And then what do we get? You know, what's the win for us? We're just involved in some other thing while we have suffering here at home. So maybe something like that is like, yeah, do I have. Should I even speak up? Because I'm not in service. Servicemen and women may be like, we want to. We'll do. You know, and that's their commitment and their job. But, yeah, I just. I don't know. That guy really scares me. And. And I don't know why we support them. I don't understand that. I wish they would really give us a better explanation, you know, especially after the massacres in Gaza. I don't understand. I do not understand that. And some people say, well, you don't know enough about it that may. And I may not. But it's like, dude, can I still speak about it? Can I speak about how I feel about it?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Serious as it gets on the Theo Von Show. But look, I mean, I appreciate him doing it and. Because, look, you know, there was so much. And I talked about this yesterday, Crystal, and this is even in the context of our own show. The White House made a huge deal about alternative media and podcasts, right?

[Sohrab Amari]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

All right, well, guess what? We literally had either our second or our first biggest day ever this week ever in terms of our analytics. Why? Because we're providing content which is both newsy and it is obviously a lot of it's opinionated and against the war, and anti war content literally could not be bigger right now. So if they care so much about YouTube and about anti war content, I'm sure Kyle's channel is blowing the hell up. You can go and you can look at the YouTube views on any major content creator who is political, who's speaking out against the war. I'd Be willing to bet that they're all seeing similar rise. And so they cared so much about the views of the bros and the podcast and all this other stuff. It's like, well, pay attention. Pay attention right now. Dave Smith, right? You guys made a big deal about him. It's like, well, what happened? Whenever he speaks out against you, really, it's only cable news and the political establishment, which is really just willing to go along with this. People who are not connected to the system think this is very, very messed up what's happening right now.

[Sohrab Amari]

But we all know what Trump is watching. Sure, we all know, but you're watching.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But you're not making a case for influence on Trump. I'm saying, though, that if in some way, again, they claim to have the pulse of the American people, then at that time, well, here's the pulse. I'm not saying we're representative of the whole country. Representative of some of the country. A decent amount of our audience voted for Trump. I know that so well, a lot of them don't support this war. You should probably take that into account.

[Sohrab Amari]

Here's what I would say is, listen, I think Trump is 100% correct that his base, his movement, they're gonna be along for the ride. And also, listen, I'm sorry, when you poll the Republican base, they are just more pro war than the Democratic base. That's just reality. They always have been and they still are, even as there's been some erosion in that direction. And, you know, there was obviously, like, it was important for Trump politically in 2016, when he finally speaks the truth about the Iraq war. And I think this time around, it wasn't that people perceived him as anti war. That solidified his support with the base. The base was gonna be there no matter what. It's independence. And that's who, you know, I think will be unhappy. I think independence will. They may, at the beginning, actually support the war. I don't know, because there's just. That's. If you would be hard pressed to find a war that the US Got into that didn't enjoy some level of public support, unfortunately, over the course of my lifetime. But I think Theo Vaughan and those sorts of voices matter for independence. I will also say, though, just in terms of his framing there, it's so convenient for Trump that it's not him. It's. He's getting pulled in. No, it's the Israelis and who's really making the decisions here. And I don't trust that guy being Netanyahu. Like, I just. It's Very convenient. It's not even critique of Trump. It's like these nefarious forces are pulling us into war, which is also, like I said, it's a convenient and inaccurate narrative. Maybe I'm expecting too much from Theo von.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I was gonna say. I think you are.

[Sohrab Amari]

I also, like I said, it is a way to justify what is already a horror show from Trump. Already a horror show from Trump. It's a way to justify the things that already should be unacceptable. And people with character like Dave Smith have already said, that's it. Like, already. Even without whether we get directly, offensively, or have boots on the ground or actively put up the mission accomplished banner, I'm done. I'm out. He should be impeached already for what he's doing. That is the actual principled, accurate read of where you are. If what you actually cared about was keeping the station out of watch.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I would say with Theo and with a lot. Look, one of the things I actually detected a lot, and I'm sure you saw this, is when he's like, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to speak about it. This is the concern trolling around expertise and really about people being willing to speak out on war. And he's like, I don't know if I know enough about it, because what happened, Theo had Candace Owens, and I forget who else on the show who spoke out against Israel. And what do you think? 98% of his phone was from some of the people who are pro Israel. You don't know nearly enough to be able to comment on this. Like, how dare you say the word genocide to the vice President of the United States? Because that's what they do is they'll be like, oh, you're not cool, qualified enough or knowledgeable enough to be an involved actor. So I actually detected, like, a lot of discomfort from him, like, having to speak about this issue. And ultimately, I mean, I think what's penetrated his conscience is about the Israeli military action in Gaza, which kind of informs a lot of his thoughts here. So, anyway, I cut him and many others, much, much bigger break. I mean, one of the reasons why he shouldn't hold Dave and Theo to the same standard is, like, Dave is incredibly knowledgeable.

[Sohrab Amari]

Well, and Dave has an ideology.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I was gonna say Dave is an ideological libertarian, anti war actor. He's taught deeply about his own politics about where things are gonna go. I mean, this is just like, I don't know. I think take what you can get, because for me, it's a barometer of where things are and what is important.

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[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Shall we move on to the polling? Because this is. Let's do it.

[Sohrab Amari]

It sets us up for this biggest.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Black pill that we can possibly take. And so yes, as I might say it is true. YouTube and many other places with big online audiences anti war content is doing very well. But unfortunately that is not what the vast majority and particularly the voting boomer base of this country is watching. They're watching cable news and over on cable news, it is just a mainline of pro war propaganda. And even worse, you are just watching the framing by the Trump administration be accepted here by a lot of the American people. Here's CNN's Harry Enton. We gotta tell everybody the truth. The truth is, is that if Trump does decide to strike Iran, it will probably be pretty popular. Let's take a listen.

[Krystal Ball]

And overall, I feel like there's more support for Donald Trump's positions than is comically acknowledged. Oppose Iran getting a nuclear weapon. I mean, look at this. 79% of adults agree on that. They agree with Donald Trump. Iran cannot get a nuclear weapon. 83% of Republicans, 79% of independents, 79% of Democrats. When you get 79% of Democrats, Democrats, and 83% of Republicans agreeing on anything, you know that that position is the very clear majority in this country. And so the American public is with Donald Trump. They definitely oppose Iran getting nuclear weapons, for instance, trying to make a nuclear weapon. Look at this. Overall, you get the slight plurality. I mean, it's within the margin of error, but the slight plurality of Americans actually favor U.S. airstrikes compared to 47% opposing it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

There you go.

[Sohrab Amari]

And these other pluralities there.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Republican number is 70%. I mean, I guess I can take it to the bank that there's 30% of people out there, but let's all be honest, at the same look, there is some confounding stuff. And I'll also say this about America. Americans are fickle, right? So at the very beginning, do you remember what the numbers were on Ukraine? It was like 90 10.

[Sohrab Amari]

Oh, yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It was literally 90.

[Sohrab Amari]

I will suffer, I will sacrifice.

[Tucker Carlson]

Yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

How'd that work out for you, huh? Huh? Yeah. I didn't want to say I told you so, but I guess I'm going to do it. But that's part of what I guess, you know, reading a book can get you. This is the problem, though. I've read enough to say the vast majority of the American people supported the war in Vietnam eventually. Everybody always has retrograde amnesia. They're like, no, I never supported it. Bullshit. Okay? The vast majority of the American people supported the war in Vietnam up until 1968 and actually even well into the 1970s. Well, the vast majority of the American people supported the war in Iraq. The vast majority of the American people supported the Libyan intervention in 2011. The vast majority of the American people wanted to pick a good side in Syria. They supported the strikes on the Assad regime. If you were to poll people and be like, hey, do you think it's worth taking out North Korea's nuclear weapon in 2017? Most people are gonna say yes. Now, what I always say is that if you ask them to consider the consequences, that's when things usually change a little bit.

[Jenny Garth]

It.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But even then, let's all be honest.

[Sohrab Amari]

We're bad at predicting the consequences. Like people are bad at projecting into the future. Oh, ten steps down the road, this is going to go forth.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And look, I get it. It's difficult because it requires a level of critical thinking that the vast majority of people don't want. And I'm not putting people down. Most people are living their lives and they don't want to think very much about the news or war or whatever. Now, I would ask you to, because it does, of course, affect your gas prices and, oh, the national debt and whether we have the, the social programs and ability, as we all learn from the war in Iraq. But, you know, you do continue to live your life. Let's go to put the Economist poll up here. At least some good news. I think for me, most Americans think that the U.S. military, quote, should not get involved in the conflict between Israel and Iran. So here they say, do you think the US Military should get involved in the conflict? The reason why I think that's really important is that doesn't just say strike, it says involved in conflict.

[Sohrab Amari]

Here's what I noticed. It doesn't say anything about nuclear weapons. Yes. And this is why. This is why the most important thing that you can impress upon people is this is not about nuclear weapons. Because the moment, let's say we ask the public, do you support a regime change, war in Iran?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Sohrab Amari]

I guarantee you the results of that would be overwhelmingly no. But let me tell you, if you were listening to any cable news network, if you are listening, you know, and some independent media, too, the question is, and this is what Trump wants it to be, should Iran have a nuke or not? That is not the question. That is not the appropriate framing. That is not what this is about. Iran was not pursuing a nuclear weapon. In fact, if you don't want Iran to have a nuclear weapon, you should be outraged that this bombing blew up the potential for successful diplomatic negotiations to make sure that Iran does not get a nuclear weapon. Because the logic is much more straightforward now for Iran to race to a bomb, as we were discussing before. So these polls that have come out so far are all over the place, and it is the most significant indicator I have ever seen of how important it is to get the narrative and the information, Right. And for people to understand what is really going on here. Because, yes, if you ask the American people, hey, should we do some limited strikes to make sure Iran doesn't have a bomb? Yeah. A majority is gonna say, yes, I agree. Which is why Trump is consistently saying, they can't have a bomb, they can't have a bomb, they can't have a bomb. That's why that's his line, because he knows that is solid political ground. The moment people realize that's not what this is about, this is about another disastrous regime change war, then the politics completely change and completely shift. And so again, that's why the most important thing that you can impress upon people is what this is really about. And that the idea of the nukes is fake, invented. There is no evidence to support it. And that is a pretext to obscure the real goal of what's going on here.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Let's also put this Washington Post stuff on the screen because this gives you a very, very clear picture about how this all looks as well, in terms of the propaganda and in terms of the framing. Can we put that up, please, guys? This new Washington Post element that we have, they ask at this time, would you support or oppose the US Military launching airstrikes against Iran over its nuclear program? You've got 25% support, 30% unsure, 45% opposed. But you can still see that that unsure number is pretty big. So they say 47% of Republicans, they already support it. Okay, 29% unsure. So that's a vast majority or their Supporter Unsure, only 24% opposed. Democrats, kind of the opposite since it's a bit more partisan. But this gives me a little hope here with the independent figure. 20% support, 36% unsure, 44% say that they oppose military and veteran household. It's actually a little bit higher. There's for support still some strong opposed numbers, and same with non military. But the point is, is that you can still see a significant amount of support here amongst the Republican Party already as long as you sell it to them about nukes. And this is why people who want nuance or have warnings always lose, is because we have to start from disproving the allegation and then warning about 40th order consequences. Now I wish though that we would have enough experience at this point that I could just say Libya and someone would be like, oh yeah, that's a good point. Right? You know, it's just about striking air defense in Libya, nothing else. Guys, no boots on the ground. Oh, except what, over 1 million people flooded Europe and caused massive demographic crisis. Oh, Syria. Not a single American stepped on the ground. Oh, wait, except until ISIS accepted a caliphate and a bunch of people were slaughtered in the Bataclan. And actually it's 20. And there's still over 1,000 troops that are on the ground in Syria today. You know, it's like having to warn about all these consequences. Same with Iraq. The Iraq question was about nuclear weapons. Now, if they had correctly posed to the American people, do you support nation building in Iraq? I do not think that the vast majority would have supported. But the point is, is once you're in, you're in. And you just slowly get bought in, and next thing you know, oh, we have to bring peace between the Sunni and the Shia, because Americans are super qualified for that one.

[Sohrab Amari]

Right, right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And then. Oh, actually, no, it's a civil war. We gotta get involved here.

[Sohrab Amari]

We gotta make sure girls can go to school.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Exactly.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[Sohrab Amari]

Everybody's seeing that, by the way, in regard to Iran.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, exactly. It's like, oh, yeah. Oh, my God. I'm reading this book right now about. I told you about it. It's called Revolutionary Iran. Fantastic book. I highly recommend it. This whole. Oh, they wore mini skirts. Yeah. That was in, like, one neighborhood in Tehran.

[Sohrab Amari]

Okay.

[Sagar Enjeti]

As usual, it's old. Always the same.

[Sohrab Amari]

Also misrepresents the reality for women in Iran right now. I'm not saying that they don't discriminate, and it's not oppressive, et cetera, but you have a huge number of women who are preponderance of the STEM graduates, et cetera. I mean, the whole thing is just distorted all the way through.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The whole point is that it's nuanced. It's a difficult picture. Okay. You had another Islamic nation called Turkey, which basically tried to eradicate the religion and all of religiosity from society. Wanna ask how that worked out? There's a guy named Erdogan who's in charge, basically, who came on the back of a rebellion against that, despite what, years, decades of propaganda against the religion of Islam. Turns out they're not very good at it. My only point is that, look, whether things should be or should not be is not my decision. That's for the people of Iran. That's for the people of Turkey. You live how you want to live, and I'll live how the way I want to. But to transpose, like, these, like, Western neighborhoods onto the entire society is ridiculous. Like, I'm thinking in Jordan. Anybody who's ever been to Jordan, there's Like this one neighborhood where all the Americans hang out and there's like a gay bar there. And people will be like, oh, see, it's such a progressive society. And I'm like, I'm like, yeah, there's one. Okay. And the reason they all go there is cause they can like drink or whatever, go and poll the vast majority of the city of Amman and be like, hey, what do you think about this? They'd probably be outraged. Or they just live and let live and they make exist in one place. This is not to denigrate. They can live how they would like.

[Sohrab Amari]

And Amman is maybe the most Western.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, one of the most western places.

[Sohrab Amari]

Yeah. There's so much to say about it. And here's the bottom line too. It's not that I don't care about the fate of women and girls, but I know a regime collapse in Iran is gonna be devastating for everyone. That is the most devastating thing you can imagine, right? So yeah, the justifications that we're already running through for why this would be a great idea, I mean it's like a speedrun through what we saw throughout all of these failed regime change operations. I want to read a few of the comments from. Because what Washington Post does is they do the poll, but they also talk to the voters about their justifications which are kind of interesting. So they have A Nevada woman, 62, Republican, voted for Trump. She says, The US cannot allow Iran to have nukes. Israel is our friend. Iran is the main sponsor of terrorism. So that is a Fox News watcher through and through, watching the same content as the President of the United States. You have another Republican though who voted for Trump, 74 year old woman, she says, I think Trump and the US need to continue negotiations and alternatives before the US bombs Iran and starts World War 3. Okay, that's good, I like that one. You've got a Democrat who didn't vote, says Iran is not an imminent threat to the US. You've got an independent who voted for Trump, 44 year old man who says, I'm not convinced they have nuclear weapons. We need proof. But I'll tell you, if you look further into this poll and the results that they got, and this again is why Trump is saying over and over again they can't have a nuke. They can't have a nuke. They can't have A NUKE Because 82% of respondents to this poll, Democrats, Republicans, independents, 82% said they are concerned about Iran getting a nuclear weapon. So you know, that's why they feel like the firmest ground is when they're trying to convince you that they were right on the edge of getting this nuclear weapon. We have to act now. And if they're able to persuade the public of that for some time, they will enjoy some level of support. Now, I will tell you, I had, I won't say who exactly, but I had a young man, 19 years old, who is not a news watcher. He is very much your like Normie, not super, he works in trades, he's not focused on any of this stuff, who was deeply concerned about this actually. Like this broke through to him good. And he is the Tahi's, the Thielmon watcher. Like, that's where he falls. And so I think in terms of independence, I think you have a real chance to make the case. When I look at those Republican numbers who already support it, and then you've got a whole bunch of them who are unsure. I just look at that and I know the minute Donald Trump makes the decision, they're all gonna lock in. And like Trump says, it's good, so it must be good. That's what we're doing.

[Sagar Enjeti]

If you guys wanna know what they're watching over on Fox, I tweeted this, but literally they had on the son of Elie Wiesel, the guy who wrote 90 to the Holocaust survivor, to come on and to compare striking Iranian nuclear facilities to bombing Auschwitz during World War II at the height of the Holocaust. That's the level of shit that these people are imbibing into their brains. And there's not a single element of skepticism of anything that you're hearing. Usually the way that they frame the question is like there is a risk of foreign entanglement. Why don't you tell us why that's not true? That's the closest that they'll come to even presenting the risk. It's just so, so bad. It's honestly, it might even be worse than 2003. The only shining thing that I saw is that that Tucker interview went so massively viral, like viral into the sense that like you said, the 19 year olds are listening. Like on liberal, on conservative, wherever, like it was all over TikTok and it was framed, it was exactly the right bite size moment, you know, and all of that. And that really did break through. Now, we didn't have that in O3 and it's probably not enough to stop what's coming, but at the very least it exists in the historical record.

[Sohrab Amari]

Real quick, I have to correct myself. It's 70% who are concerned about the Iranian nuclear program. So still high. Still very high.

[Sagar Enjeti]

All right. Well next we have a very special guest, Sohrab Amari. Sohrab is an expert both on Iran. He's a former neocon who wanted regime change. He's now a realist who opposes regime change. He can tell us in exact like exactitude why a regime change operation in Iran would be a total disaster for himself.

[Sohrab Amari]

Critically, he knows how many people live.

[Sagar Enjeti]

In Iran and he also knows how many people let's get to it for.

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

It could crash.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Very excited now to be joined by Sora Bamari. He's the US Editor for Unherd. Great friend of the show. It's good to see you man. Thank you for joining us.

[Tom Yamas]

Thank you both for having me.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So Sourab, we gave you a fantastic introduction already. And so let's just get down to it about the population of Iran, whether you can tell us because certainly Ted Cruz can. Let's take a listen and most importantly, let's dissect why that matters for us Regime change attempts here. Let's take a listen.

[Tucker Carlson]

How many people live in Iran, by the way?

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know the population at all? No, I don't know the population.

[Tucker Carlson]

You don't know the population of the country you seek to topple? How many people living around 92 million.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay, yeah.

[Tucker Carlson]

How could you not know that?

[Krystal Ball]

I, I don't sit around memorizing population tables.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, it's kind of relevant because you're calling for the overthrow of the government.

[Krystal Ball]

Why is it relevant whether It's. Well, because 90 million or 80 million or 100 million. Why?

[Tucker Carlson]

Because if you don't know anything about the country.

[Krystal Ball]

I didn't say I don't know anything about.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay. What's the ethnic mix of Iran?

[Krystal Ball]

They are Persians and predominantly Shia.

[Tucker Carlson]

Okay, you don't know anything about Iran. So.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm not the Tucker Carlson expert on Iran.

[Tucker Carlson]

You're a senator who's calling about the country.

[Krystal Ball]

No, you don't know anything about the country. You're the one who claims they're not trying to murder Donald Trump.

[Tucker Carlson]

You know, you're the one saying that.

[Krystal Ball]

Who can't figure out if it's a good idea to kill General Soleimani. And you said it was bad.

[Tucker Carlson]

You don't believe they're trying to murder Trump.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, I do.

[Tucker Carlson]

Because you're not calling for military strikes against them in retaliation.

[Krystal Ball]

And if believe that carrying out military strikes today you said Israel was right with our help. I said we. Israel is leading them, but we're supporting them.

[Tucker Carlson]

Well, this, you're breaking news here because the US Government last night denied. The National Security Council spokesman Alex Pfeiffer denied on behalf of Trump that we were acting on Israel's behalf in any offensive capacity.

[Krystal Ball]

We're not bombing them. Israel's bombing them.

[Tucker Carlson]

You just said we were.

[Krystal Ball]

We are supporting Israel.

[Tucker Carlson]

Senator, if you're saying the United States government is. We're with Iran right now. People are listening.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So Saurabh, why does it matter that somebody who wants to overthrow the regime in Iran doesn't know the population or the ethnic makeup of Iran.

[Tom Yamas]

First of all, kudos to Tucker for that interview. It reminded me of a kind of journalism you see on UK broadcast journalism where you really probe and too often we don't in the United States where it's just so deferential to anyone in power. But it matters because Iran is a large and extremely complex society, society vaster and more sensitive than Iraq, where the last time we attempted a real kind of regime change, direct occupation and nation building. So yes, it really matters for many reasons. One is, first of all, just the sheer size of the country tells you something about how difficult the kind of post regime collapse scenario would be. And second of all, it also goes into how much the Iranians, how many people, for example, they can recruit if the United States is forced into a ground operation and there's a kind of war of attrition between the regime, whatever regime we would install and where the regime remnants the older regime's remnants, whom they could recruit, how many people they could recruit. So it's just, I mean, it's just appalling. And I admire Senator Cruz on some issues, but it's just appalling that he doesn't know. And the excuse making for it's like, whoa, is he supposed to look up Wikipedia? Yes, you know, yes, actually read a briefing. You have access to information that the rest of us don't like read.

[Sohrab Amari]

Read your article. Yeah, we can put E2 up on the screen. I mean, this is so I knew the population number because Sagar and I, one of the first things we did when we knew that this was being contemplated, when we knew we were backing this war in Iran and said, okay, well how does this compare to Syria? How does this compare to Iraq? What is the population of Iran versus Israel? Like, this is the most surface level thing you could possibly know about this conflict. And yes, it's incredibly significant. But I would love you to lay out a little bit of what you do in this piece of like, okay, let's say you get your wish. Let's say the current regime collapses. How do you see that unfolding given the fact, as you just stated, that Iran is a complex multi ethnic society?

[Tom Yamas]

Yep. So first of all, the biggest problem will be the question of political authority and national authority that can keep the country together and govern minimally. And given Iran's political culture. Iran's political culture is defined by a term in Persian and Arabic, it's istibdad, which means arbitrary rule. Unfortunately, the way that it's developed, everything goes through a central authority. Whether you call it a shah, meaning a king, or whether it's an ayatollah who is basically a king under a different aspect. He's just, instead of a crown, he wears a turban. That degree of central authority and a tradition of, of centralized rule that has forestalled the development of a sense of different social classes being able to resolve differences through civil society, through well defined legal rights and duties, et cetera, et cetera, is underdeveloped. We've had attempts at trying to build those up in our 20th we, I mean Iranians, I'm Iranian American. The Iranians have attempted to build it up. In some cases, those attempts have been short circuited by foreign imperialists. There was a constitutional revolution in 1905, and the Brits and the Russians basically in part set out to scuttle that because they treated Iran as a prize in the so called great game. There was a parliamentary democracy for a while after World War II, and the leader of that movement was toppled in part through. It's complicated. It's not just in a leftist kind of talking point. It's like we toppled our democratic government. The story is more complicated, but at any rate, it hasn't developed that political culture that would easily be able to stand up a new order. So that's the main problem. And so who would you install? They floated the Shah of the Sun. And monarchy has some attractive things about it. It represents a kind of continuity, a link to the Iranian past. There are problems with it, though. Everyone I know who's worked with Reza Pahlavi, the heir to the Pahlavi dynasty, describes him as basically like indolent, incurious, et cetera. Second, he's become like a quasi spokesman for the idf. He didn't act in a kingly way, which is when that happened. He should have said something like, I feel my compatriots pain. I'm using all my influence to bring it to an end, and that sort of thing. What he said instead was, this is all Iran's fault. Which of course, I mean, the Iranian regime has shouted this nasty slogan, death to Israel, death to America. I don't deny that. But he said it's Iran's fault and rise up and overthrow the regime. Well, meanwhile, you see footage of fathers holding their infants with bloody diapers because of the bombings. How is that guy gonna rise up and you know, mount a small d democratic revolution? So, but sorry, just to clean up this point, even if he were the second Coming of Cyrus the Great, you know, the biblical emperor, the Persian emperor, who's mentioned in the Bible at various points. Even if you were the second coming of Cyrus, he needs to be able to assert control over this far flung sprawling country of 90 million with a fractious ethnic makeup. And he couldn't do that without a prolonged U.S. intervention. Right. In other words, you would have to help him do that. Otherwise it would be just like Afghanistan where there's a government, a rump state that can only control the capital and its surrounding environments and the rest of the country becomes Libyanized and Syrianized and is spreading instability all over the place. So for all these reasons, Senator Cruz, if you're listening to this buy a book. Genesis is great. I revere the book of Genesis, but it's not enough for understanding the Moses.

[Sohrab Amari]

I'm sure you would be happy to speak with him if you wanted to ask you some questions.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Senator Cruz, listen, he's a curious guy. He should call you Saurabh. One of the things I really want to dive into here, like you just said, is about this necessity for authority and how in the vacuum of authority the United States, United States must step in. And I saw that this was kind of a controversial point, but it just seems very obvious to me. Israel is a country of 9 million. What, they're gonna impose regime change in a country of 90 million? There's no occupation force that is capable of that. And what would it involve? You know, basically a fall of the Iranian regime. Like, do you think it is even possible for the Iranian regime to survive at this point even if the United States does not get involved? Given Israel's statement, their defense minister just today threatened the Ayatollah Khomeini and basically compared him to Hitler and to a Nazi and was like, yeah, we're going to kill him. I mean, effectively saying that. So is there even a scenario at this point where they can survive in their current form if not dramatically weakened? And what will come as a result of that?

[Tom Yamas]

You know, if you had asked me that 48 hours ago, I would have said no, that the pounding that they're getting from the Israelis will lead to collapse. However, looking at it from the perspective of this morning, I think that will be a long term proposition. That is, I don't think the Israelis have it in them alone to be able to achieve that. What I've heard and gathered from open sources and talking to people on the inside, et cetera, is that the regime has kind of gotten reconsolidated itself. Let's say in recent recent days, they claim to have taken care of the Mossad infiltration that wrecked such havoc in the early stages of the conflict. They are getting better at. They're kind of a very experimental people. So they just like were like, let's try different things with, with Iron Dome and with David Sling. And they're getting, they're kind of learning and adjusting tactics as they go on, as I understand it. And here I take this with a grain of salt because I'm not like the kind of military expert, but as I understand it, they're like, missile launch structure is very automated and hard to get at. More so than the Israelis have claimed or did claim in the triumphant early days. And so with all that in mind, I think that what they want to do is to make this a kind of long war of attrition that goes on for a long time. So in other words, what I'm saying is the risks of regime collapse have somewhat been reduced to my mind over the past 48 hours. However, that doesn't mean that if it happens, it's a good thing for all the earlier reasons I mentioned or that the war of attrition model is good for anyone in the region, whether it's U.S. troops who are vulnerable and don't have an Iron Dome sitting in Iraq and elsewhere, whether it's Israel itself. I mean, I love the city of Tel Aviv and it really breaks my heart to see what the Iranian ballistic systems have done. I mean, this has to be put to a stop through a negotiated settlement.

[Sohrab Amari]

So sorb, what I hear from people who are supportive of us getting offensively, directly involved is basically like, well, we can just go in, drop some bunker busters on Fordeau, get out. And I don't know what you people are so concerned about like this. This will be quick, it'll be easy. It doesn't require us to be boots on the ground in this long scale involvement. How do you see that?

[Tom Yamas]

Yeah, so basically, okay, the way I think about it is actually this is an analogy from a friend of mine, Kurt Mills, who said there are two houses. One is a mansion and one is like a fixer upper. The mansion is a negotiated settlement. The fixer upper is the quick hit. And it looks more attractive, it looks cheaper upfront. It's easier to sign the deal, meaning of buying the house, or in this case striking Fordo. But the house is actually termite ridden and collapses when it's exposed to the lightest storm. What I mean by that is that this idea that you can go in very quickly, hit fordo and get out. You have to take it with a big chunk of salt, not a grain of salt, because Iran has only so far used its long range ballistics against Israel. That makes sense because of the distance. It has a whole bunch of short and medium range missiles that can reach US bases which are vulnerable. As I said, it can try to close the Strait of Hormuz through which 20% of the world's energy supplies traverse. And if they do either or both of those things, then the United States will inevitably be forced to respond in a bigger way and we're in that bigger war. So the mansion, which looks expensive and difficult and daunting to get of a deal, is actually the more realistic option than the fixer upper of just go in, strike and get out.

[Sohrab Amari]

And lastly, Saurabh, and by the way, we should mention to people who are concerned about things, you have been there, so you are eminently qualified on every level, level to speak of such things. But the other thing that Trump has posited is that American strikes, Israeli strikes, and then ultimately potentially American strikes on Iran will soften them up so that that mansion will be more easily acquired. What do you make of that logic?

[Tom Yamas]

I just think at that point their incentives is you basically have someone in a hole who's like firing at you and, and you fire even more and you're telling him, but come out. And his mentality is, well, if I come out with my arms up, you're going to shoot me. So the only rational thing from my point of view is to just hole up and keep firing and maybe I'll die in a flash of heat or I won't, but I just don't see Iranians being able to. The Iranian leadership as we known it historically, at that point, once that has happened, they think, well, you're out to kill me and I'm just gonna, I'm gonna take my chances with firing rockets and closing Hormuz and potentially setting off terrorist proxies elsewhere in Western heartlands, et cetera, et cetera. I'm trying to think through that and I just don't see them being softened up. I'm seeing that just feeling so cornered.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That I don't see any historical evidence for it. I see none. You know, nations that are under the gun and asked for unconditional surrender very rarely do it until they suffer immense and mass death. And usually the population rallies to the flag because they don't want to deal with it either. As bad as it is, they're willing to fight to the death. And that's a very bad scenario I think for all of us. Saurabh, your commentary, your pieces and all that have been been so, so helpful for all of us. And I know they've been circulating wide. Part of the reason we wanted to have you on the show. I encourage everybody to read it and please keep up the good work, man. Thank you for joining us.

[Sohrab Amari]

Great to see you. So bad news guys. You're going to have to wait until tomorrow, the Friday show to find out what our dear leader Obama had to say about the present situation. So I'm sure you'll be waiting with bated breath. Just went too long. As we often do in the rest of the show. We got to get it wrapped, get the headlines, get it out. Thank you so much for sticking with us this week for all of the coverage. I think we're going to have all four hosts for the Friday show tomorrow.

[Ryan Seacrest]

You're able to do.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I'll make it work.

[Sohrab Amari]

So we're going to have, you know, extensive coverage there and Ro Khanna is actually going to join us. He's one of the Democrats who's been pushing the War Powers resolution fight in Congress. So really important to talk to him right now.

[Sagar Enjeti]

All right, we'll see you guys tomorrow then.

[Krystal Ball]

And here we have a specimen from the early 2000s, a legacy investing platform. Please don't touch the exhibit folks. It could crash.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Ready to step out of the financial history [e-mail] you can invest in almost everything, stocks, bonds, options and more. You can even put your cash to work at an industry leading 4.1% APY. Leave your clunky outdated platform behind. Go to public.com and fund your account in five minutes or less. Paid for by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Full disclosures at public.com disclosures.

[Jenny Garth]

This is Jenny Garth from I Do Part Two. Can't afford Ozempic. Try WeGovy from Future Health. Just $199 and FDA approved for weight loss. No insurance or tricky syringes needed, just results. Visit futurehealth.com that's future without the E and start losing weight this week. Future Health weight data based on independent studies sponsored by Future Health. Future Health is not a healthcare services provider. Meds are prescribed at providers discretion.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Jenny Garth]

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