6/26/25: McConnell Says Get Over Medicaid Cuts, Bernie And Rogan Rip AIPAC, Liver King Arrested

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – Episode Released June 26, 2025

Title: McConnell Says Get Over Medicaid Cuts, Bernie and Rogan Rip AIPAC, Liver King Arrested

Hosts: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Publisher: iHeartPodcasts

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1. Republican Struggles Over Medicaid Cuts

The episode opens with Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti delving into the heated debates within the Republican Party regarding proposed Medicaid cuts. The hosts highlight the internal conflict among Senate Republicans, particularly focusing on the leaked meeting where Senator Thom Tillis cautioned his colleagues about the potential electoral backlash similar to Obamacare's fallout.

Notable Quote:

• Saagar Enjeti [02:00]: "This is leaked from a direct meeting of the Senate Republicans. Senator Thom Tillis warned GOP senators during a closed-door meeting that the Senate reconciliation bill would prompt major electoral losses similar to Obamacare."

Krystal emphasizes the stark difference in approaches within the party, contrasting President Trump's and Senator Mitch McConnell's dismissive attitudes toward Medicaid reductions.

Notable Quote:

• Mitch McConnell [02:58]: "Failure isn't an option. I know a lot of us are hearing from people back home about Medicaid, but they'll get over it. They'll get over it."

The discussion underscores the precarious position Republicans find themselves in, balancing entitlement reforms with the need to cut spending elsewhere, such as the Pentagon budget.

Notable Quote:

• Saagar Enjeti [04:50]: "You’ve got to hit an entitlement program somewhere. You can’t touch Medicare, can’t touch Social Security. So they're going after 'quote-unquote' reforms within Medicaid."

2. Bernie Sanders and Joe Rogan Critique AIPAC

Shifting focus, Krystal and Saagar discuss Bernie Sanders' recent appearance on Joe Rogan’s podcast, where both Sanders and Rogan critique the influence of AIPAC in American politics. The conversation highlights the bipartisan nature of the critique, showcasing Sanders addressing issues within both major parties.

Notable Quote:

• Bernie Sanders [14:22]: "You would hope that there would be respect enough for members of Congress that you can vote your own conscience, you could represent your constituency... Anybody stands up and say, I disagree with President Trump, bam, you are finished."

Saagar provides an insightful analysis of the current MAGA base, differentiating between steadfast Trump supporters and the emerging MAHA group—more libertarian and podcast-aligned Republicans who are beginning to challenge traditional party lines.

Notable Quote:

• Saagar Enjeti [20:43]: "Great example, this is D3, and it shows all of the polling... 60% say they oppose [the bill], 38% say they favor."

Krystal adds to the discussion by emphasizing that the MAGA base remains overwhelmingly supportive of Trump’s policies, making it difficult for any internal dissent to gain traction.

Notable Quote:

• Krystal Ball [22:35]: "The MAGA base is 94% in favor of these airstrikes. There is not a core ideology here. The core commitment is to Donald Trump and what he does."

3. Media Influence and Trump's Authoritarian Tactics

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to analyzing how former President Trump has altered the relationship between the federal government and the media. Krystal and Saagar discuss Trump’s aggressive legal actions against media outlets, framing them as attempts to suppress free speech and manipulate public perception.

Notable Quote:

• Bernie Sanders [23:35]: "One of the things that worries me very, very much is this movement toward authoritarianism and going after media, suing media, taking away the authority that Congress has."

Saagar explores the broader implications of these tactics, linking them to historical precedents where administrations have exerted undue influence over media corporations to control narratives and suppress dissent.

Notable Quote:

• Saagar Enjeti [32:08]: "This is not just Trump. This is a tale as old as time. The Bush administration did this on Iraq coverage back in the mid-2000s."

Krystal emphasizes the absence of neutrality in current governmental interactions with the media, highlighting the new era of overt power exertion without pretense.

Notable Quote:

• Krystal Ball [33:02]: "What Trump has done differently with his administration... there is no pretense of neutrality whatsoever."

4. The Arrest of Liver King: A Sociological Perspective

In a compelling segment towards the episode’s end, Krystal and Saagar cover the arrest of Brian Johnson, better known as Liver King. They dissect his dramatic downfall, attributing it to his fabricated persona and the psychological toll of maintaining his fraudulent lifestyle.

Notable Quote:

• Saagar Enjeti [37:00]: "This guy is a con artist, a charlatan, a fraud. Someone who is clearly deeply insecure and in some sort of mental anxiety anguish."

The hosts reflect on the broader impact of Liver King's influence on young audiences, particularly teenage males who idolized his deceptive image. They discuss the potential mental health ramifications and the responsibility of parents and society to regulate child influencers.

Notable Quote:

• Krystal Ball [40:00]: "We need to get like child influence, like parents using kids as influencers. There needs to be laws and regulation around this because it is sickening."

Additionally, they address Liver King's antagonistic behavior towards Joe Rogan, viewing it as a manifestation of his mental instability, and express relief over his arrest as a necessary step to prevent further threatening behavior.

Notable Quote:

• Saagar Enjeti [43:16]: "It's creepy, man. I mean, beyond creepy. It's terrifying. So I'm glad that they pressed charges because this type of behavior is just ridiculous."

5. Concluding Thoughts

Krystal and Saagar wrap up the episode by reiterating the importance of independent media in holding powerful entities accountable and reflecting on the societal implications of fabricated online personas like Liver King. They call for increased vigilance and regulatory measures to protect vulnerable audiences from similar deceptions.

Notable Quote:

• Krystal Ball [44:56]: "This is an iHeart podcast."

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Key Takeaways:

• The Republican Party is internally divided over Medicaid cuts, with significant implications for upcoming elections.
• Bernie Sanders and Joe Rogan’s bipartisan critique of AIPAC highlights systemic issues within both major political parties.
• Trump's aggressive legal actions against media outlets signal a shift towards authoritarianism and undermine free press principles.
• The arrest of Liver King serves as a cautionary tale about the influence of fraudulent online personas and the need for better regulation of child influencers.

Additional Notes:

• The episode features multiple advertisements interspersed within the discussion. These have been excluded from the summary to focus on the core content.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And here.

[Joe Rogan]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Bernie Sanders]

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[Joe Rogan]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Guarantee hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Sagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Sagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] let's turn now to the one big beautiful bill that's the major tax legislation being pushed by Republicans through the House and the Senate, there's been some pretty big developments there. But really it's the political development of the future of Medicaid, which is the one that is just hanging like a noose around the Republican's neck. You've got two sides really. You've got President Trump and you've got Josh Hawley and a few other Republicans who are saying we're not gonna cut Medicaid, we're not gon touch it. And then you've got others like Senator Mitch McConnell who are like, yeah, people will get over it. And if you think I'm making it up, let's put this up there on the screen. This is leaked from a direct meeting of the Senate Republicans. Senator Thom Tillis warned GOP senators during a closed door meeting that Senate reconciliation bill would prompt major electoral losses similar to Obamacare. Tillis aired concerns with Senate's Senate's Medicaid provider tax framework. The majority leader, John Thune defended it saying its key component for for their spending cuts. Separately, Mitch McConnell said, quote, failure isn't an option. I know a lot of us are hearing from people back home about Medicaid, but they'll get over it. They'll get over it. Okay, good luck. Yeah, I don't think so actually. And just to show that it's not just crazy people like Josh Hawley or whatever that are worried about this, let's put this up there on the screen from Politico. Even the Speaker Mike Johnson, who is not some, what liberal like you know, is saying that Medicaid backlash could be a serious problem for a lot of the House Republicans and their majority next year. A lot of this just comes down to the fact that because they're not willing to cut the Pentagon and because discretionary spending is just not that big like in terms of Doge or wherever, I think it's probably less than 7% of the federal budget. You've gotta hit an entitlement program somewhere. You can't touch Medicare, can't touch Social Security. So they're going after quote unquote reforms which within Medicaid. But no matter how which way you slice it, it would lead to less services. And that's of course where the spending cuts are coming from. And that is one of the most tangible ways which particularly lower middle class Americans and more interact with the federal government for spending. It would just be such a massive own goal, especially in the realm of war with Iran and a trillion dollar Pentagon budget to show what the priorities are. Not to mention the fact that extends many tax cuts from the tcja, which had lowered the taxes for the wealthiest income brackets. There's also the SALT provision, which continues to be battled out within there. But Medicaid is like the number one thing. And actually, outside of Iran, I think this one is breaking through. This is one of those where it's like the Social Security thing. It's a service that people use. By the way, my Social Security card for my daughter took forever to come. Thank you, Elon. It's like a tangible thing. I was like, where is the damn card? I needed to sign up for health insurance. But just goes to show you, these are things people actually need to use all segments of society. And so that really, especially combined with the tax cut, it's just a brutal headline for the Republicans.

[Krystal Ball]

Brutal. Even Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer can figure out how to message this one.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, that's right.

[Krystal Ball]

A giant tax cut. You are losing your health care so that rich people can get a tax cut. That's the promise of this bill. And that's why some Republicans are wise enough to realize this could be a political problem. I mean, I think a lot of them realize that, remember, the vast majority of the Republican caucus are incredibly safe seats. So they're not worried about it.

[Joe Rogan]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

You have the number of swing states has shrunk and shrunk and shrunk. So you have a comparatively small number. And then they're terrified of just getting crosswise from Trump, with Trump, because they see what he's doing to Thomas Massie right now and the way he's aggressively going after. We didn't even get a chance to cover this. He set up an entire pack to spend money against Thomas Massie to try to defeat him because of his, you know, defiance over a number of issues, but including the, you know, illegal strikes on Iran, illegal war waged against Iran. So, you know, they know what happens when you get crosswise with Trump. And so they're fearful. Even the ones who are in districts that are potentially winnable by a Democrat.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, that's right. And so let's go to the next one, please. And just on the screen, just to underscore a lot of this, this is D3, and it shows all of the polling. So this is from Fox News, by the way, and that's why we picked it. So can you understand what's in the bill? 60% say, yeah, that's actually a lot. I'm pretty shocked that people are paying attention that much. But here's the most devastating one. Your opinion. 60% say they oppose. 38% say that they favor. For your family, the big beautiful bill will, quote, make no difference. 26%, 23% help, 49% say it will hurt. It's not exactly true. Just because outside of Medicaid, it's mostly extending tax cuts that were already. That's why it's kind of funny seeing the Republican messaging. They're like, if we don't do this, it will be a massive tax hike. I'm like, well, no, it'll revert back to the original tax code of 2016. But what most people don't actually pay that much attention to taxes. It's really about services. That Broadleigh is one of the ones that we're watching. So, for example, let's put guys D4 up on the screen. This is about the process that has happened inside of the Senate, and that's broadly where these Medicaid stuff has come into play because a lot of the spending cuts are coming from the program. President Trump actually spoke with a reporter today saying he was against that. But then on top of that, and I know this sounds like very in the weeds, but it really matters is that just this morning, the Senate parliamentarian has, quote, struck a whole bunch of critical health provisions from the bill, including the provider tax framework. Effectively, what that means is it screws with many of the ways they were going to pay and fund their tax or their tax extension and their spending cuts. And so what that would mean is, would increase the deficit score. Now, if it increases the deficit score outside of the Senate bill, that will then move to the House, where already you had a lot of Freedom Caucus Republicans bucking at the fact that the deficit was going to increase as a result of this. So you got two kind of opposing forces at work. And most importantly is that President Trump has said he does not want Congress. We can put that D5, please, on the screen. President Trump has said nobody's leaving Washington until the mega tax bill is done. He wants it passed by July 4th. This makes that a hell of a lot more difficult because they just lost a lot of their pay fors. They're gonna be in parliamentary hell for the next week now, basically. And what that means is that they're gonna have to scramble and find some other stuff to do that's gonna run up against the House Republicans in the Freedom Caucus. And of course, it just makes, not only is it more chaotic, but it's more likely they're gonna have to cut even deeper from some other type of social program and find some other way just to pay for a tax cut, which people at home are all paying attention to.

[Krystal Ball]

A couple other provisions that the parliamentarian has said cannot be included in this reconciliation bill that are noteworthy. Number one, we had mentioned before and covered before the fact that in the House version there was effectively a provision that is meant to make it difficult or impossible for federal courts to enforce contempt charges against the federal government. The parliamentarian has said you can't do that. The Senate had a slightly modified version. It would have required plaintiffs to post potentially enormous bonds when asking courts to issue preliminary injunctions or impose temporary restraining orders against the federal government. The House version had to do with contempt orders. In any case, she said, none of this can go in this bill. So that is probably being stripped down. Another couple that are really noteworthy, there was a provision that would reduce the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, that's basically the anti scam bureau funding to zero. That also was deemed to not qualify for reconciliation. And there was another proposal that would put the Public Company Accounting Oversight Board, which is the US Audit watchdog, into the sec that again was deemed not eligible for the reconciliation process. So these are some of these provisions. The court one is actually quite significant and the CFPB one also very significant. So the fact they won't make it into reconciliation matters a lot. But also to Sagar's point as they go through all these things, there was also a piece they were trying to sell off all the U.S. postal Service's new electric vehicle fleet and charging infrastructure, which I can't imagine they were gonna make that much money on it. But that was another one of their pay fors. I'll buy it. That also got taken out of the bill. So I'm sorry you won't be able to purchase one of the USPS electric.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I'll take it for pennies on the dollar. That sounds pretty fun actually to roll around in an electric vehicle.

[Krystal Ball]

Where are we gonna go?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Post office? I mean one of the weirdest thing is I actually love not even just electric vehicles but resto mod stuff like stuff that's electric like a golf cart and things like that. They're just fun to drive.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's be honest at this point, a check relationship with golf carts.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I don't blame you. I don't blame you. But I enjoy them. I enjoy seeing them around.

[Joe Rogan]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Let's move on to Bernie, shall we?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, so Bernie Sanders went back on with Joe Rogan. I did actually. I sort of skimmed through the whole conversation and there was A long stretch that was interesting, but kind of, you know, went on for a long time about, like, AI and what do we do about this and how do people find meaning? So that was a lot of it. Also, Bernie just doing his normal Bernie thing, talking about health care and the millionaires, the billionaires was also a good part of it. But there are a couple pieces that I found pretty interesting. One of them, where Bernie is talking about Congressman Massie and some of the attitude he's taken towards the Iran war in particular. And you get Joe's response to that. So let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

[Bernie Sanders]

I mentioned there's a guy named. I don't even know his first name. Mr. Massie is that name.

[Liver King (Brian Johnson)]

We go there.

[Thomas Massie]

Thomas Massey.

[Bernie Sanders]

Thomas from Kentucky.

[Thomas Massie]

Yeah.

[Bernie Sanders]

And this guy, as I am, is opposed to this war in Iran. Just yesterday, Trump gave a long post about how they're going to primary this guy. And what bothers me is you would hope that there would be respect enough for members of Congress that you can vote your own conscience, you could represent your constituency. Every district is different than America. But right now, anybody stands up and say, well, you know, I disagree with President Trump, bam, you are finished. We're going to primary you. We got all kinds of money. You're out of there. That happened to Massey yesterday.

[Krystal Ball]

So I thought that was pretty interesting, that coming up. And, you know, Trump's attempt to punish Thomas Massie, which we were just talking about, and Thomas Massie's been speaking out a lot about aipac, and I think it's been really important.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He's also raised about a million five in the last week. So Massie's crushing it right now.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I mean, I think. I think that his speaking out on aipac in particular, coming from a Republican who has a lot of credibility. You know, he's an ideological libertarian, but he has a lot of credibility with a pretty significant swath of the Republican Party. And for him to be talking about the influence of this lobby and the way that it works, I think has been really significant, broken through to people like Joe Rogan and others where, you know, I mean, the left, we're always talking about money in politics. Bernie's always talking about money in politics. It really does land a lot when you have someone from the right who is making that kind of a critique. There was another moment here that I thought was interesting that I wanted to get your reaction to Sager, where Joe is talking about how he sees the divisions within MAGA right now, again, about war in Iran. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that part.

[Thomas Massie]

I think the whole MAGA thing right now is very divided, particularly because one of the things that they voted for was no war. Well, now it seems like we're in a war, right? And it's quick. We're six months in, and that's already popped off. And then people are very concerned with now what happens to our troops overseas that are in these bases that are in vulnerable positions. And what happens with. I mean, there's supposedly documented terror cells that got in through the open border over the last four years. So what happens now in America? What happens on American soil?

[Bernie Sanders]

No, I mean, I agree with those.

[Thomas Massie]

When a guy like Thomas Massie steps up and says something, he's gonna have a lot more support as well.

[Bernie Sanders]

The answer is yes. And my only point is he has a right.

[Thomas Massie]

Yes.

[Bernie Sanders]

You know, somebody else says, hey, I think the war is a great idea. Fine. That's your view. You gotta go back. But what bothers me is that if anybody stands up the next day, we're gonna primary. You're out of here, man. And that's the Republicans. Let me talk about the Democrats for a moment, okay? And I don't even know your views on this, so you may disagree with me. You know, Israel was attacked by Hamas, and Hamas is a terrible terrorist organization. They killed 1200 people, which in a small country like Israel is a lot of people. Terrible, terrible attack. It's a war crime. Israel had a right, in my view, to defend itself. But the Netanyahu government did not have a right to kill 52,000 people in Gaza. Wound well over 100,000. And right now, as we speak, Joe, children are starving to death because of Israel's blockades. Blockades.

[Thomas Massie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bernie Sanders]

Starving to death. And I brought forth two resolutions which basically were very simple. And they said no more US Military aid to. To Israel under these conditions. One vote got 15 votes in the Senate. The other one got 16. Do you think that members of the Senate do not know what's going on in Gaza? The kids are starving to death. The innocent people are being shot down. Right and left. They know it. Why do you think I couldn't get more votes?

[Thomas Massie]

They wouldn't vote against Israel.

[Bernie Sanders]

Right.

[Thomas Massie]

It's political suicide.

[Bernie Sanders]

Now you're talking.

[Thomas Massie]

Right.

[Bernie Sanders]

All right, so in the Republican side, you have money and insurance, saying, you speak up against Trump, you're out of here. In the Democratic side, you speak up against the Netanyahu government, you're out of here as well. And they have been Successful. You have super PACs like AIPAC spending a fortune and they have already knocked off a number of good members of Congress and they will do it again. So all I'm saying is you got a corrupt campaign finance system on both sides.

[Krystal Ball]

So what do you think of that exchange?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, that's what makes Bernie good at this, right? Is that he's talking both about those sides and he also gets Joe to kind of agree with him. I mean, you know, it's funny, this is where the analysis just always. And I understand why people do this, but the MAGA base is an actual thing. It's not just like something you talk about. I'm talking about people who love Donald Trump and say that he is more important to them than the Republican Party. That is not really the podcast audience really at all. Most of those people are boomers, rural working class voters who mostly just like don't vote for anything else and they just love Trump. Now outside of that is more what I would say is the MAHA base and this would probably be more accurate way of talking about it, who are a lot more podcast aligned and who are a lot more libertarian. Those are the people I put Dave Smith in that category, maybe Candace Owens, probably Joe himself who were attracted to Trump for more of those element. Tulsi Gabbard as well. That if anybody's quote been betrayed, I would say it's that segment of that audience. Now I'm not gonna sit here and claim that that's a meaningful 50 or 60% or whatever of the Republican electorate, but it is a new part. And it's also look, when you win the popular vote, you do so with a coalition MAGA was they're never gonna go anywhere. That's not the point. Maga's not ever gonna go anywhere. The boomer Republicans are gonna vote Republican no matter what. The way you win the popular vote are with some really interesting coalitional groups, Maha people and also some of these more anti war voters. You know, we were gonna do a segment before the Iran war ended, whatever, at least paused, at least for now about polling. But you know, these anti war Muslims in Dearborn, it was not nothing that put him over the edge. That's how you win X amount of electoral votes. And so I think we need to be more accurate in terms of the type of voter who is out there. Again, I would never claim that this is a huge percentage, but it can be your margin of victory. And I think we should start thinking about it in those terms.

[Krystal Ball]

To me, the way I've been talking about it is the MAGA base versus independents. You know, there were independents who swung to Trump and that's what gives him this victory and gives him the popular vote margin, et cetera. And I think they're the ones who are up for grabs and, you know, independents overall, if you look at the polling, people who don't identify as Republicans, don't identify as Democrats, they are not happy about the strikes. You know, the numbers are significantly underwater. They're overwhelmingly underwater among Democrats. They are significantly underwater among independents, among Republicans. They all basically support him. CBS did a to your point, about like parsing the MAGA base, CBS did a poll separating out all self described Republicans from self described MAGA Republicans. And among all Republicans, the strikes were supported 85 to 15. So still quite overwhelming among MAGA Republicans, actually, the support is even higher. 94% of the MAGA Republican base supported these strikes. So the accuracy in the language is something that's been bugging me too, because if you say the MAGA base is divided like they're not. The Maga base is 94% in favor of these airstrikes. They shifted. Before Trump did it, there was a little bit more dissent, a little bit more concern. Once he did it, they were all on board. And that is what we've seen. There is not a core ideology here. The core commitment is to Donald Trump and what he does, what he says defines where MAGA is gonna be. And that is just reality that we've seen time and time and time and time again. This is not the first time that Donald Trump has claimed he was gonna go in one direction and then ultimately gone in the other direction. And we've seen the MAGA base every single time find a way to justify it because Trump did it. Ergo, it must ultimately be good.

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's right.

[Krystal Ball]

Probably the most heated exchange over the course of the interview came towards the end when Bernie seeks to bring up some of Trump's authoritarian tactics. And Joe starts to get a little, you know, it gets a little more contentious here where Bernie is specifically talking about some of the lawsuits and the attacks on free speech by Trump, some of the lawsuits that he has waged against various media companies. Let's go ahead and take a listen. This went on for a little while, but let's go ahead and take a listen to a section of this.

[Bernie Sanders]

And what I worry about Trump is, you're right. You know, I read it is astounding back in the 1780s when these guys wrote the Constitution. How perceptive they were.

[Thomas Massie]

Amazing.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Thomas Massie]

I mean, they Understanding of human desires and the power and all the corruption.

[Bernie Sanders]

Exactly.

[Thomas Massie]

Pretty amazing.

[Bernie Sanders]

And they wrote that having just fought a war and won a war against the most powerful despot on earth, the King of England.

[Thomas Massie]

Right, right.

[Bernie Sanders]

And I think in the back of their minds, we're saying, all right, we just beat the King of England. Absolute power. How do you create a new country which has checks and balance so that nobody ever has that power? And I gotta say, I mean, one of the things. And there was a lot of arguments about Trump, that worries me very, very much is this movement toward authoritarianism and going after media, suing media, taking away the authority that Congress has.

[Thomas Massie]

When you say suing media, are you talking about the CBS lawsuit?

[Bernie Sanders]

Among other things.

[Thomas Massie]

But don't you think there's a real issue with what they did?

[Bernie Sanders]

No.

[Thomas Massie]

You don't think that there's a real issue in editing conversations to give someone an answer different than what they really answered?

[Bernie Sanders]

Joe, I've been on eight zillion shows right. In my life.

[Thomas Massie]

Okay, okay.

[Bernie Sanders]

Now, should I sue you if you ask me some stupid question that I don't like? Right. Or that you do something? Do I ever. Should I sue you?

[Thomas Massie]

Yeah. But that's not what he's getting.

[Bernie Sanders]

He has sued abc. He has sued Meta. He is suing the Des Moines Register because of a poll that came out during the campaign that he didn't like. All right. He is suing CBS for this Kamala Harris interview. So do I think how many. I cannot tell you the number of stories done about me that were based. That were not good stories.

[Thomas Massie]

Right.

[Bernie Sanders]

That were dishonest stories. That's what a free press is about. You don't like it, you gotta live with it.

[Krystal Ball]

So, you know, Bernie is sort of making the broader point about the authoritarian tactics, and Joe is. I mean, Joe's supposed to be a free speech guy, but then he's down with these lawsuits.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I mean, I think CBS, etc. The reason I understand is he's probably deeply fat up with a lot of these. In fact, I find this with a lot of rich guys who are, like, relatively well known as. They get pissed about the media. And I actually understand. But the point is, is that we.

[Krystal Ball]

Get pissed about the media, too.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right. Like, I've literally had lies written about me multiple times. And it's like. Well, you know, that's part. I think it's more useful to explain the principle. And I haven't listened fully to the interviews. I don't know if Bernie gets to this, but the point of the Way that the standard is set currently is that you have to be able to prove as a public figure their will, like their willful knowledge that they knew what they were saying was a lie at the time. And then you have to be able to show a damage. Now, the reason why it's set that way is from a New York Times. What is it? New York Times versus Sullivan case at the Supreme Court back in the 1970s, because we actually used to live in a much more censorious press. And the way that that current legal doctrine looks like is Britain. And in Britain, they actually have a much lower standard for the ability to sue over defamation and libel. And in my opinion, I don't think they have nearly an adversarial culture enough. You have much more of like the power veto of somebody coming in and saying, no, that's not gonna happen. And the reason why I think that that standard is important from a media person who works in this is it preserves the ability to report things that are off the cuff, on the fly, first draft of history. Of course, there are going to be errors. As long as you have an editorial process in place and you can also demonstrate that what you're trying to do is not willfully lie about somebody, then it should be an extremely high standard to make sure that you can disseminate that level of information. And if that didn't exist, you genuinely would have just a lot less of people. Okay, let's go to the great example, this Iran intelligence story, right. The Trump administration is saying that they're trying to libel these pilots. You can see it's been. That's bullshit. That's not what's happening.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Sagar Enjeti]

They took facts and they reported it. They're not willfully trying to libel or defame the pilots or taking information and they're putting it out into the public. But people should know that prior to that Sullivan decision, and really to the Pentagon Papers, that story would never would have seen a light of day. You and I would have no idea that that was actually the case. Well, and I think we're better off knowing.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's take that one step further, because this gets to the next point, which is that what happened with ABC News and with CBS is because they didn't want to get crosswise with the Trump administration. They didn't go forward and fight. That's the thing.

[Sagar Enjeti]

They could have taken it to trial and they absolutely would have won. They just decided 100% they wanted.

[Krystal Ball]

But they decided they would rather effectively pay a bribe to kill.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Exactly.

[Krystal Ball]

So that their business Deals could go through. And Bernie does get to this point, their business deals can go through, and they're not gonna get messed with, et cetera. And so even though when they're out there saying, oh, the New York Times or whoever is libeling these pilots, even though that's obviously a bullshit and spurious claim because of the track record of all of these media lawsuits and the fact that these corporate entities are very willing to bend the knee and capitulate and pay the bribe rather than have their business messed with, it does act as an effective check on the press because they have that hanging over their head. We saw the way that 60 Minutes, the fallout over there, and their desire, the leadership's desire there for them not to go too far in terms of their Trump criticism so that they wouldn't. Their larger business entity wouldn't get crosswise with him. And so that's the point that Bernie is trying to make. And, you know, on the specifics of, like, the CBS News, I think, was the one where there was an edit of Kamala Harris that, like, made Kamala look better. I mean, you can criticize the like, as we did. Yes, but also, news outlets edit interviews all the time.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right? Not us, by the way. Not us. Just so you.

[Krystal Ball]

Fox News. I'm not gonna say we've never edited an interview.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I'm not sure it's ever.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know if we have. But, like, theoretically, you could have, you know, okay. That, like, didn't. We don't have time, whatever. But Fox News edited that interview with Trump.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

Where to make his Epstein answer look better. Like, should Kamala sue Fox News over distorting the election because they hid from the audience the fact that Trump gave a really poor answer on Jeffrey Epstein. That actually raised a lot of questions. No, she should complain about it. Fine. But the idea you should sue them or any other news outlet that edits an interview, a way that you don't find to be advantageous for you or you find to be advantageous for your opponent. That is ridiculous. I mean, it is completely absurd. But again, the broader piece here is part and parcel of this series of authoritarian tactics that are used to force media organizations to trim their sales, to not critique as much, to be afraid of these lawsuits to pay tribute to the king goes with the university. The approach to universities goes the approach to law firms, and is sort of like part and parcel of this project. And that is really the important point to make here versus even getting into the nitty gritty. I mean, the details. Sure. They matter. But getting into the nitty gritty of the lawsuits isn't really the point. It's that bigger picture that is what really matters.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I don't disagree. But I also think that part of the problem, and this is actually, I mean I think Trump is, what he does is he takes everything to the nth degree. But the truth is, is that government has always used its leverage over these massive corporations to influence media. And what we can see, like for example, let's take cbs. CBS is owned by Paramount. Right. And Paramount is now being sold to Skydance. Well, Sherry Redstone who was the head of Paramount, who is by the way a massive pro Zionist Jew. Yeah, that's part of the reason she's interfering in CBS 60 minutes and also cuz she wants her merger to go through, which is like Paramount Studios in Hollywood and thus is trying to placate Trump over here. This by the way, is again, this is not just Trump. This is a tale as old as time. The Bush administration did this on Iraq coverage back in the mid 2000s. We've seen significant pressure in the past. For example, I read Jack Welch's book, or a book about Jack Welch and he would never sell CNBC because he was like, you don't understand. CNBC cost me X amount of money. But its value to General Electric as a company because of the ability to manipulate the stock market and to influence all policy discussion is immense. Bloomberg, same thing. Bloomberg Terminal owns Bloomberg News. So really I think it's also a story of like corporate consolidation and control over media because of course the government and presidents and that will use their leverage on those organizations. We've seen it threatened in the past. Nixon famously as well would threaten their businesses and their permits and all these other things that won't be able to go through. It's part of the reason why, you know, with the Internet and more independent models it actually you genuinely can get a little bit more freedom. But yeah, it's such a big story that it is important for people to understand that.

[Krystal Ball]

I just, I was, that's all accurate. I've never seen a president sue a media company over a poll they didn't like.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, but that's Trump is like Trump just goes all out. Okay, I wanna say full something else, but I'll save it. But like that's what he does. But I'm just, he's less subtle about it. I guess I'm only just contextualizing it in that so that people should understand that, you know, I mean, remember when Bernie, what did he say? On the campaign trail about Washington Post. Yeah. And he was like, who's that owned by? He said, who's that owned by? Something like that. And everyone freaked out at him. But it's just so obvious now, you know, the way that this all works and the way that they use their media companies as tools for their broader empire. Bezos yesterday rolled out a new policy where sources who disagree with the way a story was framed are able to email in their comments about a story. Yeah. Why do you think he did that? Okay. All right, let's wonder a little bit about why these things work.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, here's what I would say is different. And then we can get to the Liver King story, which also directly involves Joe Rogan and also involves us potentially. What Trump has done differently with his administration. I did a long monologue about this previously, is there is no longer even the appearance or claim or pretense of neutrality. Everyone knows if you get crosswise with Trump, he will get the DOJ after you. He will pull your funding. And whether it's Department of Education, whether it's your Federal emergency, whatever it is, it is not. There is no pretext of neutrality. It's Versailles. You're completely accurate about that. So previously, remember, in the Obama administration's big scandal that allegedly there were tax statuses being revoked by the IRS in a political manner. This is a giant scandal. Okay. This would go unremarked upon. I don't even know there'd be a news article about it. This is what, like, it's. It's just.

[Sagar Enjeti]

What was that woman's name?

[Krystal Ball]

It's like Lois Lerner. It is. So that is what has truly been transformed about the government under Trump is everyone expects that every single aspect, every agency, every agency head, every lever that they can use against you, they will. And so that means that, you know, if Trump threatens to sue you, that carries a lot of power. If they're going out, if they're a university that they're going after, if it's a state they're going after, it contains even more power. Not that it hasn't always been. You know, the federal government has always had a lot of power, but now there's not even a pretense of neutrality whatsoever. So they can go after you. And it's barely even a scandal that they're doing it in a politically motivated way. So that's what I think is, you know, has. That's what the Rubicon Trump has truly crossed and, you know, a way in which he has truly changed the nature of the relationship that people expect from the federal government vis a vis the citizens and civil society is what I would say.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I don't. I don't really disagree with any of that.

[Joe Rogan]

And here we have a specimen from the early 2000s, a legacy investing platform. Please don't touch the exhibit folks. It could crash. Ready to step out of the Financial history [e-mail] you can invest in almost everything. Stocks, bonds, options and more. You can even put your cash to work at an industry leading 4.1% APY. Leave your clunky, outdated platform behind. Go to public.com and fund your account in five minutes or less. Paid for by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Full disclosures at public.com disclosures future health.

[Liver King (Brian Johnson)]

Weight Loss Want Ozempic but can't afford thousands a month? You need WeGovy for $399 all. No hidden fees. The only FDA approved GLP1 for weight loss at the lowest price yet. Save hundreds on authentic, safe, effective WeGovy pre dosed injection pens for a limited time. No insurance needed, no tricky syringes, just faster weight loss. Get this Limited time [e-mail] today for the best price on the market. These meds eliminate hunger and cravings while FutureHealth handles the rest. Easy. Join those losing 10 pounds their first month. Plus you don't have to drive to a doctor's office. It's all online via telehealth with licensed clinicians in your area. Go to futurehealth.com to see if you qualify and start losing weight this week. Visit futurehealth.com future without the e Future Health Weight Loss Database on independent studies sponsored by Future Health. Future Health is not a healthcare services provider. Meds are prescribed at providers discretion.

[Krystal Ball]

It's Megan.

[Joe Rogan]

Are you ready for hashtag Megan Summer.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Megan Megan Megan Megan Megan That I give you a printout that you can read at your own pace. Megan. Yes, it's me. What a shock.

[Joe Rogan]

Et cetera on June 27. She is a smoking hot warrior princess.

[Sagar Enjeti]

All right meat sacks, let's get to work. Are you going to stand in my way?

[Joe Rogan]

The bee is back.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You think you learned your lesson the first time?

[Krystal Ball]

Megan Megan 2.0 only in theaters June.

[Joe Rogan]

27 for DPT 13.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Let's get over to Liver King, shall we? Yes again, just to bring it full circle because we were in the Liver King document and this also involves Joe Rogan. And it's a fun story to end on. After an insane couple of weeks, Liver King has found himself under arrest in the city of Austin. Let's go ahead and put some of that video up there on the screen. After issuing, quote, terroristic threats against Joe Rogan. I mean, Liver King, his real name is Brian Johnson, as revealed in the documentary and as he often would talk about on his social media platform. And let's be honest, this guy is totally lost in. He appears, he looks terrible. Who knows exactly what's going on with him, whether he's on something or whether he's withdrawing from the steroids that he admitted to taking after lying to everybody about not taking steroids. But the point actually, as a sociological phenomenon, is important to see, because, look, I mean, Liver King is a bullshit artist. I mean, this is a guy who, again, lied about taking steroids. Sold. I think it was like $100 million or something like that in supplements. Pulled off a bunch of stunts to popularize the Carnivore diet. Fine. But really was like, selling a vision and lifestyle centered around a body which just fundamentally he was lying about. And everybody kind of knew he was lying. But the proof eventually being released by my friend Derek over at More Plates, More Dates, just really revealed him to be a total fraud. And he tried to have his whole redemption arc. But I mean, what this just, like, demonstrates is also so. So many people were looking up to Liver King at that time. It's important to remember that a huge part of his audience was, like, teenage males who weren't really able to discern a lot of this. And so in the hopes of being able to show people what the downside of, frankly, unhinged, lying personality of somebody who's willing to perpetrate, first of all, this massive attention grab and all this ridiculous shit that he was doing. But also look at the downside of this, you know, like, he's literally melting down on his Instagram page now, being arrested by the police, and is obviously unhinged. Like, he looks terrible. I genuinely hope he gets the help that he needs.

[Krystal Ball]

He needs to be committed, his wife and his kids.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Like, you guys need to step up here, man, because this is a crash out of epic proportions. Like, yeah, take control, because this is not good. You know, whatever it is.

[Krystal Ball]

I'll tell you, I watched the documentary last night about him. That Sagar's monologue, like, builds to a crescendo and it wraps up with Sagar's monologue. Also, my voice is briefly in it as well from our last. Our Joe Rogan appearance. I forgot that we talked about that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I forgot about it, too.

[Krystal Ball]

And Joe's like, ah, I Knew he was a fraud. And I'm like, oh, just based on how he looks. So in any case, we, you know, we've been following it. He was obviously not on my readers. I wasn't really the key demographic that they were going after. But what jumps out in the documentary is, first of all, you feel terrible for these boys. His.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I do. I know those children are used as props to basically sell a lifestyle and.

[Krystal Ball]

All this weird shit he has them do. I mean, I felt, I feel bad for those kids. I think we need to get like child influence, like parents using kids as influencers. There needs to be laws and regulation around this because it is sickening. It really. It's a huge industry and it's grotesque and you know, so you, first and foremost, you feel bad for these kids. Secondly, you are wondering what is the. Like the wife is just going along with all of this, like, what is happening? And then third was. It was so disturbing to me that this is someone who so many young men looked up to as a role model, when this person is the polar opposite of who a role model should be. I mean, now he's had the full mental break. But this was not a well person and obviously his whole thing is built on a lie. He is a con artist. It is complete fraud. I mean, I think a lot of his or joint story too is probably a fraud which involved his kids, by the way.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Nobody knows.

[Krystal Ball]

Like, you can't take any of this for granted now because his big selling point was I look like this because of these nine ancestral principles or whatever.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Tenants.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, nine ancestral tenants. And that was all total and complete bullshit. And it wasn't like he just didn't answer the question. Multiple podcasts, he'd go on and they'd say, are you on it?

[Sagar Enjeti]

That's what I mean. He was a liar.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely not. No. I know people can't believe. I love when I get this question, but no, it's all natural. And you need to stop limiting yourself and believing that this isn't possible for you too. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So this is a con artist, a charlatan, a fraud. Someone who is clearly like deeply insecure and in some sort of mental anxiety anguish, et cetera, and becomes an icon and a role model for millions. I mean, it does bring you back to the point of like, we have to do some self reflection about what state young men are in, that this would be appealing to them. And so many people would gravitate to such an obvious charlatan. So that was the piece for me and then I watched a bunch of videos of him just hunting Joe Rogan throughout Austin. And I think, effectively, he has, in his mental collapse, fixated like a stalker on Rogan as the source of his downfall. Because Joe had said several things about him.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He was the most prominent person to be like, that guy's a liar before.

[Krystal Ball]

It even officially came out. And then he had Derek on the podcast to go through all of the total evidence, like the, you know, the leaked emails and everything that just proved that he absolutely was a fraud and a liar. And so it seems like this guy is completely fixated on Joe. He's hunting him. He shows up in Austin, he's making these direct threats, and he's carrying around this briefcase that has Joe's, like, the Joe Rogan Experience logo, which includes his face, of course, on it. And at one point, he opens it briefly, and if you do a, like, freeze frame of what's inside of it, there's at least one gun in there.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And he's saying, you know, all the. He's saying he wants to fight him and he's coming after him and all of these sorts of things. So I think that's what probably led to them feeling like, okay, we've got enough that we've got to arrest this guy. But, yeah, he.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, I'm actually glad. I'm glad that they arrested him, because you can't just be rolling around threatening people with guns on social media. I mean, look, we have some video of this. I'm just gonna play it for you. You guys, this guy's lost.

[Joe Rogan]

Lost it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay, let's. Let's. Let's watch.

[Thomas Massie]

Because Joe Rogan, we don't have to make videos to pretend anymore all of this is happening. We're coming to you. I've challenged you, man to man, to a fight, honorable and we don't have to pretend or make any videos. The world is watching. They'll make the videos for us. And you don't have to hold a camera. You can hold the hand of somebody that you love, because what happens next to you, you're going to need to remember that feeling. You're going to need something more than what you did to give you something to fight for, because I have my family to fight for. That's what warriors do. You and Andrew Tate are good warrior, good warriors, but you're actually better than that. Real tension. We have comedy. Comedy that you do is good and true.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it's creepy, man. I mean, beyond creepy. It's terrifying. So I'm glad that they pressed charges because this type of behavior is just ridiculous. And yeah, honestly, we all hope Brian, not the Liver King gets the help that he deserves.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. I mean, look at those pupils. One is like triple the size of the other. There's a lot going on there. And yeah, he needs mental help. That's very clear. And frankly, like the kids are one thing. Like, you know, I don't know what age they are at this point, but this is their dad, etc. But shame on his wife and his handlers and whoever's getting paid by him, whatever for letting it get to this point. Letting it get to this point is just absolutely sad.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's sad. All right. Maybe they can play this in the follow up documentary. This is gonna be in volume two, the Liver King Downfall. Shall we? It's been a great week. Thank you all so much. There'll be a great Friday show for everybody tomorrow, but otherwise we will see you all next week.

[Joe Rogan]

And here we have a specimen from the early 2000s, a legacy investing platform. Please don't touch the exhibit folks. It could crash. Ready to step out of the financial history [e-mail] you can invest in almost everything. Stocks, bonds, options and more. You could even put your cash to work at an industry leading 4.1% APY. Leave your clunky, outdated platform behind. Go to public.com and fund your account in five minutes or less. Paid for by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Full disclosures at public.com disclosures future health.

[Liver King (Brian Johnson)]

Weight Loss Want Ozempic but can't afford thousands a month? You need WeGovy for $399 all in, no hidden fees. The only FDA approved GLP1 for weight loss at the lowest price. Yet save hundreds on authentic, safe, effective WeGovy pre dosed injection pens for a limited time. No insurance needed, no tricky syringes, just faster weight loss. Get this limited time [e-mail] today for the best price on the market. These meds eliminate hunger and cravings while FutureHealth handles the rest. Easy. Join those losing 10 pounds their first month. Plus you don't have to drive to a doctor's office. It's all online via telehealth with licensed clinicians in your area. Go to futurehealth.com to see if you qualify and start losing weight this week. Visit futurehealth.com future without the e Future Health Weight Loss database on independent studies sponsored by Future Health. Future Health is not a healthcare services provider. Meds are prescribed to provider's discretion.

[Krystal Ball]

It's Megan.

[Joe Rogan]

Are you ready for hashtag Megan Summer?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Megan.

[Joe Rogan]

Megan.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Megan.

[Joe Rogan]

Megan.

[Krystal Ball]

Megan.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Would you prefer that I give you a printout that you can read at your own pace? Megan, you. Yes, it's me. What a shock. Etc.

[Joe Rogan]

On June 27. She is a smoking hot warrior princess.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Alright, meat sacks, let's get to work. Are you going to stand in my way?

[Joe Rogan]

The bee is back.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You think you learned your lesson the first time?

[Krystal Ball]

Megan.

[Joe Rogan]

Megan 2.0 only in theaters June 27th with Apt 13.

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.