6/3/26: Larry Ellison Net Worth Skyrockets On Data Centers, ICE Protests Erupt At Delaney Hall

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – June 3, 2026

Episode Theme: This episode of Breaking Points dives deep into contemporary wealth disparities amidst the AI/data center boom—focusing on Larry Ellison’s meteoric net worth jump—and the political tussle in Maryland’s 5th District regarding tech influence and local economic displacement. The second half dissects the eruption of ICE protests at Delaney Hall, drawing out wider debates about American citizenship, obligations, immigration, and the socio-economic fractures they create.

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Section 1: The Oracle Boom, Political Influence, and Maryland’s Congressional Race

1.1 Larry Ellison's Net Worth & the Data Center/AI Explosion

• Larry Ellison now the 3rd richest person worldwide, having gained $70 billion in a single month due to the AI/data center surge (02:39).
• Krystal, ironically: “We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little. … I love it when good things happen to good people, right? Don’t we love to celebrate success here?” (02:39)

The Ellison-Oracle-Maryland Connection

• Adrian Boaffo, former Hoyer campaign manager & Oracle lobbyist, is running to replace retiring Rep. Steny Hoyer—with ongoing Oracle lobbying linked to regional data center expansion.
• Walla Blogay (councilwoman, candidate, studio guest) running as a progressive, anti-corporate alternative in Maryland’s 5th (encompasses some of the nation's wealthiest Black communities).

1.2 Interview with Walla Blogay: Economic and Social Fallout

• On Billionaires/Wealth Disparity:

  • “We have no tolerance for the billionaires living big in United States while the rest of us are suffering. And that’s why I’m running.” (04:17)
  • “[It’s] out of control… they just don’t care anymore.”

• Data Centers: Local Impact

  • Maryland’s federal workers and contractors are hurting while local utility bills sky-rocket—directly connected to the data center gold rush.
  • “We are on the same grid as the capital of data centers, Virginia. … Our [energy] bills are even higher than other areas. … Our PJM administrator told us if the hyperscale data centers keep coming up, we are going to have blackouts.” (05:45)
  • Blogay calls for a moratorium on new data centers, supports requiring that they “bring their own generation.”

• Job Claims & Community Pushback

  • Promised data center jobs are exaggerated: “The job count for a data center … is about 12 to 15. … A lot of the jobs are remote, so arguably they could hire somebody from another state.” (13:40)
  • Local resistance: mass protests, high bills ($1,000–$1,500 monthly), fast-tracking without community input.
  • Krystal: “If Howard Zinn had been immortal and was around today … it'd be like a Larry Ellison Oracle lobbyist trying to replace Steny Hoyer in Southern Maryland.” (07:33)

• Maryland Democratic Primary – a Fluid, Crowded Race

  • 23 Democratic candidates: driven by rising economic distress, especially among laid-off federal workers.
  • “People are … seeing, we’ve never seen this before. Like 20 years ago, this was the middle America where they were taking away those factory jobs and those factory jobs were leaving the country. Now it’s us.” (07:55)

• On Government Shutdowns/Back Pay

  • Contractors get “stiffed” during shutdowns, employees squeezed by late bills—even with back pay: “...if they hear this, they will just cringe. Right. Because... as you’re waiting, there’s a bill that needs to be paid.” (09:23)

• Stakes of the Congressional Race

  • Hoyer’s endorsement, once decisive, now less relevant—voters are “asking questions” out of economic anxiety.
  • Blogay: “A Hoyer endorsement 10 years ago would have sealed the deal… Now … the hurt is too much.” (10:00)

Notable Quotes

• Walla Blogay:
  • “We are ground zero for the attacks.”
  • “We did a ceasefire resolution. A lot of people were afraid because of AIPAC, but I wasn’t… We did a ceasefire rally with the Muslim community and Christian community.” (14:54)

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Section 2: Citizenship, Detention, Protest – ICE & American Identity

2.1 Delaney Hall ICE Protest—Context and Coverage

• Protests and hunger strikes are erupting at Delaney Hall (NJ) over detainee conditions and broader anti-ICE sentiment.

• Hasan Piker (progressive influencer) reads detainee demands:

  1. To meet with Governor Mikie Sherrill,
  2. Release the medically vulnerable and young/elderly,
  3. “Freedom”—not merely better conditions (21:07).

• Governor Sherrill is caught between accusations of complicity and her lawsuit to allow health inspectors into the facility:

  • “If there’s actually nothing to hide … why are you blocking state health inspectors from going inside?” (22:04)

2.2 American Citizenship – Oren Cass Interview

What Is “Citizenship”?

• Oren Cass (American Compass) launches “Reclaiming American Citizenship” campaign:
  • “Citizenship really meant something much broader. … Full participation in communal life, in economic life, in national life. … A sense of solidarity.” (24:11)
  • "If you go back and look historically ... citizenship ... meant a connection between generations ... you were inheriting ... you in turn had an obligation [to the next]." (24:22)

The “Blurred Line” – Rights of Residents vs. Citizens

• Discussion on the erosion of the “citizen”/“resident” distinction in the context of detention and constitutional rights:

  • Crystal: “I think it’s a kind of fundamental American thing … all people who are here, however they’re here, even murderers in prison have … the Bill of Rights applies to them.” (33:21)
  • Cass: Concern is not humane treatment, but "a blurring of the distinction between resident and citizen." (29:02–30:16)

• Immigration and Political Polarization

  • Cass: The real problem in citizenship/immigration debates is not numbers but lost solidarity and citizen control.

  • Ryan: "So much of what we’re seeing in our struggles with illegal immigration now are really way downstream of, okay, but what is citizenship in the first place?" (29:02)

  • Left/Right Divide:

    • Krystal downplays ‘conspiracy’ narratives about Democrats seeking mass immigration for electoral gain, instead suggesting policy “overwhelm” and subsequent course-correction (35:31).
    • Ryan insists, “the Biden administration could have controlled immigration and chose not to,” noting policy changes when facing electoral pressure (36:41).

“Common Sense” Compromises, Enforcement, & Catch-22s

• Deportation, Workforce Enforcement, and Legalization:

  • Krystal: "I think it would look something like: violent criminals, ... deport ... and everybody else, humane pathway, legal work requirement, ... compliance with E-Verify ... not just a second class workforce." (41:20)
  • Ryan: Pushes for "mandatory E-Verify" & says workplace enforcement is a better test of will than harsh ICE sweeps.
  • Krystal: "You have to also support the other side ... all of the housing construction will stop [if you just enforce strict employer sanctions]." (59:17)

• Debate highlights “fantasy” of total workforce enforcement versus the practical and moral imperative to "transition” to a system that recognizes both the needs of citizens and the realities/roots of mass unauthorized labor.

  • Ryan: “The union hall doesn’t exist [because] who would go hire from the union hall if there’s a massive exploitable population of undocumented immigrants to hire instead?” (58:20)

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Section 3: Economic Security and National Renewal

3.1 Economic Security – Excerpts from Treasury Secretary Scott Besant’s Speech

• Clip: “While America slept, our vulnerabilities grew. But under President Trump's leadership, we are alert to the risk we can no longer ignore... we are awoken to mourning again in America...” (43:50)

3.2 Reshoring, Labor Force, & The American Economy

• Oren Cass: Acknowledges stealth “manufacturing boom”—but warns against policies that treat citizens only as “inputs for the market”:
  • “The point is not for citizens to serve the market. The point is for the market to be serving citizens.” (46:00)
  • Cautions against “jobs Americans won’t do” justifications for cheap labor policies.

3.3 Regional Decline, Place, and Community

• Discussion of “vicious cycle” in which rural/struggling areas lose anchors (hospitals, colleges) and rely ever more on federal spending, missing broader opportunities for economic revitalization.
• Cass: “It’s very important that the aspiration not be, well, as long as we have enough funding for healthcare and higher education, all of these places can survive. But rather to say … the long term goal has to be that these are productive, flourishing places…” (53:41)

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Section 4: Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Krystal (re: political drama): "If Howard Zinn had been immortal and was around today … it'd be like a Larry Ellison Oracle lobbyist trying to replace Steny Hoyer." (07:33)
• Walla Blogay: "We are ground zero for the attacks. … We have got to pause data centers." (05:45)
• Oren Cass: “[Citizenship] meant full participation in communal life, in economic life, in national life. It meant a sense of solidarity. … A connection between generations.” (24:22)
• Ryan: “You should want the same kind of experience in the job market for the construction worker that you or I get to experience. … And that requires a much tighter job market than we have had.” (60:17)

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Section 5: Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:39 – Larry Ellison’s net worth explodes; Maryland’s 5th District race setup.
• 04:17–16:49 – Walla Blogay’s interview: tech wealth, economic pain, pushback on data centers, ceasefire resolution, Democratic field.
• 19:01–41:49 – American citizenship, Delaney Hall protests, and immigration debate: Oren Cass & Hasan Piker.
• 43:50 – Treasury Secretary Scott Besant’s “economic security is national security” Reagan Library speech.
• 44:47–61:49 – National reshoring, labor shortages, community decline, rural policy, and citizenship’s meaning.
• 58:05–61:49 – Workplace enforcement, transition to legal labor, “fantasy” of strict enforcement, practical policy divisions.

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Conclusion

This episode critically examines the convergence of technological wealth concentration, big tech’s political influence, and the real-world costs to workers and communities, set against the backdrop of a critical Congressional race. The latter half’s focus on citizenship, immigration, and protest at Delaney Hall highlights deep ideological splits, with both practical and philosophical disagreements surfacing between the hosts and guest. The episode stands as a microcosm of America’s ongoing battle for economic justice, social cohesion, and a renewed sense of shared citizenship.

Transcript

[Walla Blogay]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

[Ryan]

It's the rage bait.

[Walla Blogay]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Crystal]

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.

[NBC News Announcer]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

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[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

All?

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[Breaking Points Host]

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[Ryan]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Breaking Points Host]

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[Ryan]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail]

[Crystal]

A huge congratulations to Larry Ellison. The data center build out and the AI boom has vaulted him. We can put up this first Element on the screen. Vault him the third richest man in the world. You know, I love it when good things happen to good people, right? Don't we love to celebrate success here?

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

We call it karma.

[Crystal]

We do. Absolutely. Beautiful. His net worth went up, I think $70 billion in the last month. Modest because he's, you know, he really, he woke up earlier, you know, he put in the hours. And when you do that, you know, success comes your way. Coming out of that, what he'd like to see is Steny Hoyer, the longtime representative from Southern Maryland who was the number two in the House for really many decades, wants to see him replaced by an Oracle lobbyist. Larry Ellison, of course, the founder of the CIA linked Oracle and Adrian Boaffo now running. Former Steny Hoyer, campaign manager, has been a lobbyist for Oracle for data centers for the last five years and is now running with Hoyer's support to replace him standing in his way. Harry Dunn is a Capitol police officer, but also Prince George's councilwoman, Walla Blogay. We are joined today by Walla Bulgay. So your opponent's boss made $70 billion last month, but you know, anything can happen. So thank you for being here in the studio. We really appreciate it.

[Walla Blogay]

Right. And we have no tolerance for the billionaires living big in United States while the rest of us are suffering. And that's why I'm running.

[Crystal]

What's so crazy is we could have minted 71 new billionaires in the last month. Instead, one billionaire is worth $71 billion more.

[Walla Blogay]

The richer are getting richer. It is getting out of control. It is in our faces. And it's like they just don't care anymore. And that's why we are, we have, we are ground zero for the attacks. Like, it is amazing how we have billionaires who are getting richer, but yet, and still we're ripping. Our federal workers have gotten their jobs taken, our federal contractors, anything DEI, you understand. Maryland's 5th congressional district has two of the wealthiest African American communities in the country that have been torn down because contracts have been taken. Anything DEI in this administration has been snatched. Like, we literally are hearing weekly from people looking for new opportunities because they can barely make payroll. We have federal workers who are piecemealing side jobs to get the jobs to get the income that they had before, which they're barely getting. We are dealing with the highest grocery bills, utility bills, as you mentioned, one of my opponents is a lobbyist for Oracle. And we have data centers that are on our grid. We are on the same Grid as the capital of data centers.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Tell us about this. Yes, because this is a big issue we're dealing with.

[Walla Blogay]

It is a huge issue. In Prince George's. I stopped the data center in Prince George's. We have one that they just stopped in Charles county and Calvert is not having it. So we have at least three of the five jurisdictions within congressional five fighting data centers. And yet, and still we're looking at Oracle possibly. And even before the $4 million that's come in from a crypto Oracle, all of these things, they were getting money from Oracle data center folks. And I would just tell you this. Our bills are going up high. We are on the same grid. We are on a 13 state grid with the same grid as the capital data centers, Virginia. That's why our bills are even higher than other areas we are struggling to stop. We have in Prince William County 20 hyperscale data centers coming up. Our PJM, our administrator told us if the hyperscale data centers keep coming up, we are going to have blackouts. We are in trouble. And it's because of data centers. We have got to pause. Data centers. I am full support of Senator Sanders. Bill paused. Moratorium on data centers. In fact, I introduced one in Prince George's county when we were going to have one at the Landover Mall. And Senator Van Hollen's bill that requires them to bring their own generation. Their pressure on the grid is making it worse for everyone. Then if you elect a lobbyist that is a data center lobbyist, it will get worse. You're almost like asking for increasing utility bills. And yet instead we have, as you said, the Oracle man is now richer than he ever has. And we have seniors that can't pay their bills. In fact, my office, we're paying bills.

[Crystal]

I feel like if Howard Zinn had been immortal and was around today like writing a new book, it'd be like a Larry Ellison Oracle lobbyist trying to replace Steny Hoyer in Southern Maryland. Now the thing that makes this race interesting though is there seem like there are 255 people running. How many people running in this race?

[Walla Blogay]

It's 23 now. We had one dropout for the Democratic side doesn't include the Republican side. And it's because Jorge has stayed in office for almost. He stayed in office longer than I've been born. So it is. He has been 45 years in office and that has caused people to have to say this is a moment. And I will tell you this. The suffering. I know, I know that we have people I'm running against that I don't know very well. But what I know is that they're mostly laid off in federal workers that are just sick of it and deciding they want to get involved. It is the suffering that's going on that's causing the 24 people to run. Because people are seeing, we've never seen this before. Like 20 years ago, this was the middle America where they were taking away those factory jobs and those factory jobs were leaving the country. Now it's us. We are literally federal workers are losing jobs and they cannot find anything that will pay them or give them anything before. And the ones who've keeping their jobs, they feel that they have been pretty much nobody appreciates them. And meanwhile, this is happening. We're spending a billion dollars a day in the Iran war while we've got people who have been told their jobs were cut to save money.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Oh, go ahead.

[Crystal]

Correct me if I'm wrong. In your district, whenever there's a government shutdown, a lot of your workers are contractors and the actual employees will get back pay. But the contractors get stiffed. Usually.

[Walla Blogay]

Yeah, but understand, don't. Because the employees, if they hear this, they will just cringe. Right. Because the reality is that as you're waiting, there's a late bill, there's bill payments that need to be paid. Back pay is better than no back pay. Yeah. And then they are looking at back pay. But the reality is that getting all those late fees, waiting for things to come, money come. I mean, there were people that called and said, I know it's a shutdown, but walla. I'm about to get my light turned off because we're already behind. So is that then the federal contractors. Yes, they don't get jobs and federal contracts. Even worse, we have about. In Prince George's county alone, we have about 75,000 federal workers. And in each county they have a big number. But what's even bigger is the federal contractors. And federal contractors don't have the same protection. So they don't get the notice they don't get. A lot of them are getting last minute notice that they have beenthe contracts have been ended and they don't get all of these packages and all that that's required with a federal worker. So we have federal contractors who are just getting quick notice that they've been late, that they're gonna be laid off and no money to really go. Like people are struggling. We did put out something about paying bills with a nonprofit because we fund a nonprofit and we had to Say no to a lot of people. So it is struggle right now. I think that it is something that many people are not used to. So they're trying to kind of go through it. So right now what, A Hoyer endorsement 10 years ago would have sealed the deal, right? It would have been, it would be over. Because I've been a council member for four years now in Prince George's county and prior to that I was a labor lawyer involved in the community. I had a show chat with the lawyer. I've run against the ticket before and when I ran against a ticket that was normal times, people would just say, look, I know these people. I'm going to vote for whoever they recommend. Now we went door knocking yesterday. People are asking questions. They say we got to research candidates because the hurt is too much.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Yeah. And I was going to ask, I mean, so your opponent might say data centers. If people are struggling in PG county, they need jobs. Data centers bring jobs. Data centers bring tax relief.

[Walla Blogay]

We've been played before.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Right. So tell us. And I was also curious when you're talking about this on the campaign trail, what you're hearing from people because we're not being told by Kevin o' Leary and others that this is just a giant Chinese psychological operation on the American public. China is making us mad at data centers. What are you hearing?

[Walla Blogay]

Well, we're here so we'll put it like this. This was before this election. People found out in Prince George's county they have fast tracked data centers. The prior administration have fast tracked data centers. The council done the county executive. When we came in, we didn't even know about the fast tracking. But what happened was all of a sudden the word got to the community that one of the data centers was at permitting. And we found people called the office demanding, screaming. We had an event where people took over. About almost 1,000 people showed up screaming and yelling. And they were like, why do we have this? We were already looking into the issue and I think we had a qualified data center task force to look into the issue. But then I did a pause. I was like, no, fast tracking. Everything has to stop. The reality is that what's getting people the bills people are seeing $1,000 bill a month at people who. I used to have a bill that was less than $100. Even I myself will admit to you. Yes. That I got a $600 bill in January. And so if you are getting that I had an 85. I mean it is really. I had an 85 year old woman who said that she's got a $1,500 bill. She doesn't know if you have an older house. It's even worse. So that's what's really driving the frustration. And I think people are feeling like with a data center, they're seeing a lot of things, a lot of the information online. They want to know, how does this impact their life? How does it impact their environment, how does it impact their water? So what we know is my opponent has been quiet on what his work is with data centers. He even says it's education. But the reality is that Oracle is building data centers.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

So he's not even trying to own it and say, listen, I was bringing job. He's just the one who doesn't want to talk about it.

[Walla Blogay]

We know that the job count for a data center, for a regular data center is about 12 to 15.

[Crystal]

Right.

[Walla Blogay]

So we are talking about. And they even said that what's even worse is that a lot of the jobs are remote, so arguably they could hire somebody from another state. And so you might not need someone in town. Now, the unions will argue, and I know that because they were the ones that I found out that my opponent worked for data center. I found out through the unions. The unions actually says, well, this is unionized jobs. But the reality is that the construction jobs, those are temporary jobs. I am pro labor. I am a labor lawyer, so I am. I believe any data center built should be built under a labor agreement. However, is this good for the residents? The answer is no. No, no, no.

[Crystal]

So you also made news in Prince George's county as you were pushing a ceasefire resolution.

[Walla Blogay]

Yes.

[Crystal]

Talk about what you did, you know, after October 7th, what the pushback has been and how that's playing into the race. Because Adrian Bwoffa, of course, because this is a Howard Zinn story, also has the support of Democratic majority for Israel. I don't know if AIPAC has officially gotten in yet, but they have. AIPAC's in.

[Walla Blogay]

Yes.

[Crystal]

DMFI is basically an AIPAC offshoot, right?

[Walla Blogay]

Right. Yeah. So we went October 7th, and of course I am in no support of Hamas actions. However, the visuals of those killings in Gaza got to me. We did a ceasefire resolution. I tried to lobby my colleagues to do a permanent ceasefire resolution. A lot of people were afraid because of aipac, but I wasn't because I felt strongly that this was wrong on all sides. We shouldn't have Hamas killing people. We shouldn't have an Israel government killing people. So we did a ceasefire rally with the Muslim community and Christian community. We had pastors, we had everyone come out. And so now, of course, we're not for putting our money into a war that makes no sense, especially when our federal workers are not back to work. We are not for just giving arms with no restrictions. And that's not being antisemitic. That is just being. That is just the position that America should take. They would take it with any other country.

[Crystal]

Right? Walla Blue gay candidate for Maryland's 5th congressional district. Where can people find more?

[Walla Blogay]

Go to walaplige.com, w a l A B L E G A Y. I've been an activist, you know, a lot in Prince George's County. They know me and my work has been known around the community. So we're on the ground and what we see. Don't let the $4 million of AI crypto and all that. So that's the number we got fool you into thinking that this race is over. We're talking to voters.

[Crystal]

Election is two weeks.

[Walla Blogay]

Yeah.

[Crystal]

Roughly. All right. So we'll be watching it closely. Thanks so much for being here.

[Walla Blogay]

Thank you.

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[Walla Blogay]

I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

[Ryan]

It's the rage bait.

[Walla Blogay]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Crystal]

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.

[NBC News Announcer]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

We're joined now by Oren Kass. He's the founder and chief economist over at American Compass. Oren, thanks for coming back on the show.

[Ryan]

Thank you guys for having me.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Fresh off an interview with Treasury Secretary Scott Besant last night at an American Compass event in disclosure, I'm an American Compass member and a big fan of American Compass, of course. What does it mean, Oren? I go to events. It means we get a free dinner

[Crystal]

every once in a while.

[Ryan]

No, no, it's there, there's no financial relationship. We just, we are trying to support a network of policy professionals, journalists, lawyers, folks in government who are nerds.

[Crystal]

You remember, it means like you get an AMA for free or something.

[Ryan]

We should have something like that. But no, it means we're hopefully working together on improving the policy environment in this town.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Right. And now you are out with a new initiative on American citizenship. We can put this up on the screen. American Compass has this new Reclaiming American Citizenship initiative announced last night. And we might have to add this in post, but just announced. And Oren, we're going to ask you all about what you're trying to do on the right to build a sort of initiative or to build a framework for how the right should be thinking about citizenship right now, especially as. Let's put F1 on the screen. This is protests erupting outside of Delaney hall in New Jersey. And Ryan, you could probably tell us more about the left's mobilization here. Obviously, this is over the treatment of people detained, which again, it gets us back to this conversation about what it means to be a citizen and the like. But the left is outside of Delaney Hall. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

[Crystal]

Right. There are, there are hunger strikes going on inside over, on the one hand, over conditions, also access to like different kinds of food, also over the protesting kind of the entire apparatus. We could actually roll F4 because Hassan Piker was there recently. Earlier in the show we talked about Adam Hamawi, New Jersey congressional candidate who just won last night. Hamawi and Hasan Piker went to the Delaney protest. And here's Piker reading out some of the demands from the hunger strikers and protesters inside.

[Hasan Piker]

What are these Delaney hall hunger strikers demanding? Many people have questions about what is happening inside of Delaney Hall. The detainees on hunger strike have stated that their demands are, number one, to meet with the governor. They want to meet with Governor Mickey Sherrill to go inside of the facility and meet the actual detainees. Number two, they want the release of the medically vulnerable people. They demand the immediate release of those with serious medical conditions. Number three, release young and elderly detainees. The demand of the immediate release of young and elderly people. And number four, freedom. We're not striking to demand better conditions and treatment. We're going, we're doing this to demand our freedom. And they've said that they are going to continue the strike until they get hurt. The hunger strike is not about improving the conditions of the facility necessarily, but to meet these demands.

[Breaking Points Host]

Most recently, they want medical attention.

[Walla Blogay]

Members who are the targets of retaliation shut down.

[Crystal]

Mr. Placer Law and protesters have alternately accused New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill of either, you know, collaborating with ICE here or abandoning them, but meanwhile, put up F3 here. She has sued the. Sued the facility over unsanitary conditions and in particular for barring access to health inspectors. She has said, you know, if there's actually nothing to hide, if everything's fine in there, why are you blocking state health inspectors from going inside? About 10,000 plus people have gone through this facility. Most of them, I think the median stay is about nine days. 70% or so have no criminal record, which means that some 30% do. And so, Oren, thanks for being here. The piece that you wrote, it's an elevation. You can describe it for this elevation of the idea of citizenship. And as I was reading it, I was thinking, like, as far as I remember, the idea of citizen kind of originates sort of with the French Revolution, I think the American Revolution, which inspired the French Revolution. But people, you know, people in the streets of Paris were calling themselves like, citizen so and so. Citizen so and so. And the purpose was to do pretty much what you're suggesting in the. In the essay here, which is to establish kind of a level of baseline humanity and equality amongst the people and to say the sort of Roman, the Republican. Yeah, well, there's that too. And to say that we. Right. And a callback to that, to say that we. We have duties and responsibilities to, you know, to this, to the state. There are things that we are obliged to do for the state, and there are Things the state then is obliged to do for us because we are citizens. And it's a, and it's a two way street. I don't know. How do you, like, how do you think about it?

[Ryan]

I guess I would put it a little differently. I think for one thing, to Emily's point, you know, the citizen concept goes back to Rome and Roman Republic and it was certainly very central to the American founding.

[Crystal]

I guess I mean the contemporary ish era.

[Ryan]

Well, sure, I mean, French Revolution is a strange place to go as the star, you're right, they called each other citizens. But I think also, you know, this captures a way in which the French Revolution was obviously less successful, I think most people would say. And how you're describing that as kind of just a fundamental claim of equality of things that, that the people owe to the state, I think Mrs. What's most important about citizenship, which is that it's a reciprocal obligation among the people. And that goes back again to this notion of what is a republic. Right. One of the things that's so unique about the United States is that it's really this nation that was brought into being by the sheer will of citizens who wanted to create this thing to serve them. And I think if you go back and you look historically really up to very close in the 20th century, certainly in the US there was very much an understanding of citizenship. Again, it has its legal meaning, who can live where. But citizenship really meant something much broader. It meant full participation in communal life, in economic life, in national life. It meant a sense of solidarity. It meant ultimately that you also had this connection between generations, that you were inheriting something from the people who had invested to give it to you, that you in turn had an obligation to invest and give it to the next generation. And it seems to me that, and what we're really focused on, American compass, is that that's just fundamental to human flourishing, to a well functioning society. And I think it's something that we've lost. And you know, we obviously do a lot of work on economic policy. I think in terms of what do policymakers need to do better? Economic policy is a huge piece of it. But the reality is that you also need a political culture that's going to be able to make those kinds of changes. You need people who are bought into the system. This thing we spoke about a lot with Secretary Bessant last night, that especially when you talk to young people, you know, the problem isn't that they don't have enough stuff, right? Like we have more material abundance than ever, I think. But their very well founded frustration is that it's not clear what any of it's for. And so when we think about reclaiming American citizenship, and the reclaiming is very important because I think there really is something that was sort of stripped away that over really the past generation, we've degraded that kind of relationship into something that is just more, you know, you are a consumer, not an actual productive participant necessarily in the economy. You know, you are sort of this individual with radical autonomy to invent your own truth, not somebody who is a member of a community and lives within those obligations. And at the national level, to some extent, even, you know, outright shame or disdain for what is an incredible heritage that we have inherited and should be trying to carry forward. And so I think in substantive terms, I mean, there's a lot of policy that has caused some of these problems that could address some of them. But also, just as a matter of how we approach our politics, I think what is really missing out there right now is an aspirational, positive vision that's not, you know, the traditional revenue center message has just been like, well, we'll just get government out of the way and everyone will flourish. That's obviously not sufficient. You know, the message from the left of center tends to be more, you know, well, here are the things that are lacking that we will therefore give you. I don't think that's sufficient either. And so we're trying to figure out, you know, what is the message that will actually acknowledge and speak to the very real problems, but in a way that actually reclaims some of what we've lost.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

And the Delany protests remind me of a distinction that I think is been raised, whether it was in Minneapolis or elsewhere. And I actually don't mean this in the context of Delaney, because I believe people in our detention should be treated humanely, of course. But there has been a blurring of the distinction between resident and citizen that I find very interesting is sometimes it seems as though, yes, we should be affording certain rights to people who are in detention, people who are here on green cards, visas and the like, especially if we said we were going to. But also there is a distinction between somebody who is living here in the United States legally or in some cases illegally, and a citizen. And I think the meaning of citizen is why. I mean, the degraded meaning of citizen is probably why that distinction has been blurred. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, Oren.

[Ryan]

No, I think it's a great point. I think so much of what we're seeing in our struggles with illegal immigration now are really way downstream of, okay, but what is citizenship? Citizenship in the first place? Because I don't think it would be controversial to say on the left of center. There has been much more a view that anybody has a right to come here. And the reality is that for citizenship to work, for that sense of solidarity to exist, it's actually incredibly important, both in theory and in practice, that the people who are the citizens of the nation have the right to decide who becomes a citizen. If you're telling me I'm supposed to have some relationship to the other people, but also I have no say in who those people are going to be, that breaks down very quickly. And so that's not necessarily an argument for or against any level of immigration. Right? You could have a very well functioning system that has many immigrants coming in, but it needs to be happening in a way that citizens who are already here feel like and in fact do have control over. And then it has to be happening in a way that actually imposes obligations on those people as well that says if you want to come and be a part of this community, it is not simply having that piece of paper. There are obviously enormous benefits and privileges that come with being here, with being a citizen, and that also then comes with obligations that we have to be willing to uphold. And so when I see the Hasan Piker protest, to me it's just a perfect illustration of, you know, look, if the approach you're going to have is, well, all of these people are sort of, you know, entitled to their freedom, I think it's safe to say also, you know, anybody who's concerned whether they can speak English, anyone who's willing to embrace and share a culture, that these are somehow, you know, racist or uncouth things to demand. These are actually the core things to demand. And one thing we really want to focus on is like, and by the way, even if you are sort of a, you know, more to the left of center, you want a much larger and more generous welfare state, you should almost be more concerned about demanding those things. I mean, it makes some sense. The libertarians are crazy, but they have an internal coherence, right? Libertarians will say like, we want open borders and we want no welfare state that provides anything to anybody. Like, well, that's a terrible idea, but like, that sounds awful, but also like, at least like you're putting your money where your mouth is, sort of. And I think what's been a huge problem for the left of center is to say, no, no, we are going to uphold all of these things that we must give to everybody, but we absolutely reject this idea that we are going to impose anything that's going to maintain the kind of solidarity and bonds of genuine citizenship. And that's where then in turn, you just see trust start to break down. You see both at the community level, trust in the government. You see people feel like, why am I even paying taxes? What is this going to Rio Grande Valley?

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Hispanics voting for Trump?

[Ryan]

And then you see it is a really important point that a lot of people who have immigrated to this country and have become citizens the right way are often those who get this more than anybody and are especially frustrated by people who are not doing those things. And so I think it's really important to think about this as really at the root of a lot of the problems we're having here, but also to divorce it from what has been the fight about immigration for so long, which is like, well, either you're pro immigration and that is the sort of humane, we care about everybody's rights, or you're anti immigration and that's somehow xenophobic or racist or whatever else. Either you're pro a good concept of citizenship, which can absolutely incorporate immigration, but does it in a way that's going to work, or you're against that and you're ending up where we are today, which is a giant mess.

[Crystal]

One kind of adjacent disagreement I would have with you guys is talking about that we would treat citizens and non citizens differently. I think it's a kind of a fundamental American thing that the Constitution says all people who are here, however they're here, even murderers in prison have the Bill of Rights applies to them. Our Constitution applies to them.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

I just mean like non citizens voting in D.C. elections, something like that.

[Crystal]

Right, right. And yes, and we could. That that's an interesting one too, because like, if you, if you live there and you have a stake, you want people to have a stake in the society. But I feel like, and often when I'm reading American Compass stuff, I'm like, how is this right wing? I agree with all of this stuff for the most part.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Also sound like the libertarians who are Oren's critics.

[Crystal]

Yeah, there you go. But so I do feel like there is a compromise that kind of reinvigorates the kind of Bernie Sanders kind of AFL CIO, mid-2000s kind of position. And one place I somewhat disagree, and maybe I'm wrong, but particularly during the Biden administration, there's a belief on the right that the Biden administration deliberately unleashed and pulled in a massive wave of migrants because they wanted to destroy the country and that they thought these people are going to then become Democratic voters and they're going to lock down the country forever. Like, I think that is a genuinely held view among a lot of people on the right, which I just think is incorrect. And to your point, like, analytically, like a lot of people who come in and are immigrants and become citizens, they vote for Republicans even on its own terms, like this idea that millions of people coming in is automatically. And also they can't vote and let's say, okay, their kids are going to vote and let's say it's Chuck Schumer's like 20 year plan. There's no guarantee that they're going to be Democrats. If you're going to, to cheat to like, you know, take over the country, this would be the craziest way to go about doing it. I think what actually happened is that Trump did slow immigration significantly in his first term and then Covid shut it down completely in like March of 2000. And you had, well, border crossings were going up.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

There were caravans that were sending a lot of migrants. Border crossings were going up. I don't know about the net, but

[Crystal]

yeah, I mean, the problem, but. And then you had the economic collapse of Venezuela and Cuba and you had this mass push to the border and then, then it pours over. But my point is, I, whether however you feel about that, I think it's crazy to think it was a giant conspiracy. I think it happened and they like, I, because I knew people involved with, they like, they were just overwhelmed of at what was going on and wasn't something and they were trying to just deal with it. Regardless of that, I feel like Democrats overall, maybe not the activist groups, but Democrats overall, are at a place where they're like, okay, you know what? We were wrong about that. Like, that was bad policy. It didn't help the migrants, it didn't help workers, it didn't help anybody and it hurt us politically. And so, fine, we need a stronger border, but we're not going to do that again. At the same time, what's happening in Delaney hall and at these ICE detention facilities across the country and, you know, thankfully they're not sending ICE as viciously through places like Minneapolis as they were before. But that, that kind of thing where you're.

[Ryan]

Let me jump in here because I really disagree with a few elements of this. First of all, the idea, I think you're right that it can be overwritten as a sort of elaborate multi decade conspiracy theory. It is unquestionably the case that the Biden administration could have controlled immigration and chose not to in a different way. And the way that we know that is because six months before the election when they realized they were going to get crushed if they didn't do something about, they did. So this was a choice by the Biden administration and it was a disastrously bad one. The second thing I think is very important to say about now, the challenges that we're having in enforcing the law is that this is the inevitable downstream consequence of what the Biden administration did. You cannot say we are going to lawlessly allow millions of people into the country. And then when the voters, as you said, even the Democratic Party is ready to admit, wow, that wasn't a really good idea, say, whoa, whoa, whoa, we can't believe now it's hard to actually enforce law and do something about it. And you know, I don't know about the details in planning hall, I think to your point, you know, humane detention and so forth is, is critical. But I also really take issue with this idea that, you know, oh well, ICE is like viciously going to Minneapolis because here's the thing, most ICE activity and detentions and deportations are happening in states we don't hear anything about. Why is that?

[Crystal]

Well, because they're going to U visa appointments or.

[Ryan]

No, because they're doing it in states where the governments in the states and the cities agree to work with ICE and enforce the law.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

You mean like New Orleans or Memphis in Texas?

[Ryan]

What you are seeing in a conflict in place like Minneapolis is a sanctuary city. You're seeing a city that is saying we refuse to support the enforcement of the law and in fact we're going to obstruct it in all sorts of ways. And in that context, yes, it's going to be very messy. And so to your point, all while Democrats understand this now, sanctuary cities is question number one. When I see the sanctuary cities reversing those policies, I'll believe you that in fact we're ready to get serious about this. And if I don't see that, and I think the American people don't see that, it's going to be very hard to take seriously the side like, no, no, we want to just do this the right way. We want to do this humanely. Unfortunately, it looks like you don't want to enforce the law at all. And that's a huge challenge.

[Crystal]

Yeah, I guess the point is that if we're really going to take this idea of citizenship seriously. And if we're all citizens first, then it has to get beyond this. Left versus right, Democrat versus Republican. I think somebody like Stephen Miller, who even Trump has said, you know, if you had your way, there'd be 100 million people here and they'd all look like you. And that, that is then expressed as, as policy where he's, you know, mandating these, you know, 3,000, 4,000, whatever it is a day. And it's. And it's. And it's producing.

[Ryan]

You mean deportations, right?

[Crystal]

3,000, yeah.

[Ryan]

Now, do you remember how many people were coming across the border?

[Crystal]

It was a lot. It was a lot.

[Ryan]

It was. Right, right. So at what rate would you like to deport the millions and millions of people that we agree the Biden administration chose to.

[Crystal]

I think this would be the interesting place where, if we're serious about. This is interesting, a compromise. I think it would look something like violent criminals, but as citizens come together and say, look, we're going to focus on deporting violent criminals. That's the first thing. We can all agree on this. So we're going to focus on that as citizens of this country, people who are following the law and we're going to. And we're going to close the border in a serious way, as you guys want. And people who are following the law and who love our country and are here for the right reasons, we're going to find a pathway to make them citizens. If we can't come to that kind of agreement, then we'll just do every two years war back and forth. So what is.

[Ryan]

So I just want to point out the irony here is you were telling me there was no Biden conspiracy. These people aren't going to be able to vote anyway. But now the only acceptable compromise is. No, no, with the exception of the violent criminals, they should all be given citizenship. So I question that as the common sense compromise. Secondly, it seems to me there are some other things we could do here. For instance, workplace enforcement. Right. If we just. Right. Because in fact, every one of these people who are here illegally and working there is a violation of the law there as well. And so that's one place I think Republican Party is overwhelmingly in favor of mandatory verify. I think that's a great place. We could be taking much firmer action.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Well, I'm curious to actually hear some contrast between both of you on the left, you know.

[Crystal]

Yes. On the citizen question, let's say you're really worried that these people are going to vote for Democrats. I think it's overblown but you can say, okay, here's the pathway to citizenship is here's a legal work requirement you have to work for you can work for 12 years but that's compliant with E. Verify that it's not a second class kind of workforce that is working in the shadows.

[Ryan]

A fake Social Security the and then they but they are citizens or they

[Crystal]

after say 12 years.

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[Walla Blogay]

10 I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

[Ryan]

It's the rage bait.

[Walla Blogay]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Crystal]

If we got clear facts, maybe we could calm down a little.

[NBC News Announcer]

NBC News brings you you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Let's roll this clip of Scott Besant and I'll get your take on this, Orin, because you interviewed him last night. But Scott Besant gave what he's what a lot of people are reacting to as a major economic speech at the Reagan Library last week and he was talking about economic security as national security and how we've kind of the way he sees it that we've sort of divorced these two things when they should always be thought of together. And citizenship and labor are obviously a huge component of this. So let's roll the clip.

[Ryan]

While America slept, our vulnerabilities grew. But under President Trump's leadership, we are alert to the risk we can no longer ignore and attune to the responsibility. We can no longer defer under President Trump. We have awoken to mourning again in America, and our best days, I believe, still lie ahead.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

So not to interrupt the conversation you were having, but to continue it, Ryan, you would say. Our birth rate is a serious problem, you would say, and Oren, you would probably agree with Ryan on that. You would say also that we need people to work more of these jobs. We have a huge chunk of actually working age men, 10% of working age men outside of the labor force. But also it's hard to fill some of these jobs. So. So, Oren, if we're bringing manufacturing back to the United States, first of all, are we. Second of all, is that going to. Do we have workers for that if we're also engaged in mass deportations?

[Ryan]

Well, so I think we certainly are bringing manufacturing back. Wall Street Journal's Greg Gipp has been calling it a stealth manufacturing boom because the reality is step one is you actually have to build new factories, right? You're not going to see the actual hiring for some time. But to your point, we certainly have plenty of people outside the labor force. We have plenty of people in much lower productivity jobs that might be well served by jobs in the manufacturing sector. We also have a lot of technological change happening that people think are going to vastly increase productivity. If anything, they're concerned that we won't have enough work for everybody. And so, you know, I think both on this question of sort of immigration enforcement, on this question of the labor market and reshoring it again, all comes back to this idea for me, of the first question here is what sort of nation do we want to be? And, you know, what sort of model do we want to go forward on? And then questions of economic policy, questions of how much growth are you getting. These questions, you then decide those within the confines of the kind of country that you want to be. And so, you know, the phrase jobs Americans won't do, I think is a quintessential example of the problem here. The idea that we're going to have a whole class of jobs in our economy that the people who live here won't do is sort of simultaneously demeaning to the people who absolutely will work if there are jobs with good conditions that pay a living wage. And it's ridiculous to suggest that employers and business models should be operating in ways that create jobs that don't meet those conditions. So I think what we really have to focus on is saying there need to be some Constraints here. Citizenship in one respect is a constraint. We have the citizens of this country for whom the market operates. Right. The point is not for citizens to serve the market. The point is for the market to be serving citizens. And so how do we change policies to actually generate those kinds of results? Some of the things we're doing with trade and industrial policy as a way to drive more investment, get more of a focus on creating these kinds of jobs, I think an element of immigration policy definitely has to be, okay, what is the premise of immigration policy? If the premise is, well, we just need to add people to do jobs, that I think very much demeans the notion of citizenship as a community and a nation first and foremost. And so I actually appreciated. Ryan, you mentioned sort of The Bernie Sanders AFL CIO view of the maybe mid 2000s on something like immigration.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Teamsters sponsored the gal last night.

[Ryan]

Teamsters sponsored the gala last night. Teamsters, I think, are much less beholden to some of the more left wing activist groups at this point. The reality is that the AFL CIO no longer has the AFL CIO position. Bernie Sanders no longer has the Bernie Sanders position. And so I think you're absolutely right that there is a point of view on what immigration should look like that Democrats historically did hold and Republicans historically held right. It did not used to be nearly as contentious an issue. And the reality, I think is the Financial Times had some wonderful charts on this a year or two ago where they showed with various measures what was the Republican, independent, Democrat or conservative, moderate liberal perspective on immigration. And what it showed was the right of center and centrist view just sort of proceeding without any real change and the left of center view veering way off. And look, you can say, and the left center review was right to do that. They should be pulling everyone over. But as a dispute, descriptive matter, the divisiveness of this issue, the shift in how we talk and argue about it, and ultimately our, I would say, sort of loss of that concept of citizenship to the extent where in the immigration context that veer on the left is the thing that is causing the change. And I think we really have to grapple with. But then I would just say that also that, you know, immigration is one obviously very relevant piece of the citizenship conversation, but it's certainly not all or even most of it, right? I mean, even if you completely fixed all of our immigration problems, we would still have this broader breakdown in communal life, in economic life, in national life. And so it's unfortunate in some respects to the extent that because of the direction immigration has gone, it has become as central a focus as it is. But moving beyond that really requires not just making sure we have a stable and sane immigration system. It just as much requires thinking about what is the pathway for a young person into adulthood. The way that we did sort of college for all I think has been a disaster. We've sort of said, either you're somebody who's going to go to college, succeed there and head off in life, or we just have nothing for you. And so how do we think about the role of education? How do we think about transitioning into adulthood? All of that is a big piece of discussion, I think place and just caring about it, not saying, well, everyone can move to opportunity and frankly, we're going to strip mine all of the most talented people out of a lot of communities. So saying place is the most important thing in a lot of ways, in a lot of people's lives. And so how do we make sure the economic growth and opportunity, the vitality of communities is getting out to everywhere instead of saying, well, here are the enclaves you can come to if you want it. Those are the kinds of things we're really going to have to address and prioritize over the next quarter's GDP number.

[Crystal]

Well, I mean, one thing that keeps people in place is you got to have a hospital. You got to have a hospital. You got to have a rural hospital and you got. It helps if you have a college or a university, even a small one that just statistically, like, that's gonna keep people who.

[Ryan]

Yeah, so I totally agree with that. The problem is what's special about those two things? It's that they attract massive amounts of government spending. In other words, hospital health. No, no, but they're important in its

[Crystal]

own right as well.

[Ryan]

That's absolutely true. But economically, what's going on here is that as you've. It used to be. Well, of course you'd have a hospital there because if you have a vibrant community and, and people who are doing well and prospering, you would want to have a hospital.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

You're saying it would follow the right.

[Ryan]

You didn't used to have to worry about, wait a minute, how do we get healthcare to this place? Because if it was a vibrant place

[Crystal]

of, well, you have a country doctor

[Ryan]

that had likes them and at some point. That's right. Our healthcare system has obviously evolved. And in rural communities you also just have a scale problem. But the extent to which we now think, oh, well, in a lot of places you have to have a hospital and you have to have a college is because those are the two things that you can put there that simply by enrolling people or admitting people entitle you to massive amounts of federal money. Right.

[Crystal]

And like land grant universities being a critical Lincoln.

[Ryan]

Lincoln thing, once upon a time it was land grant universities. Now it's just anybody whose students are eligible for financial aid and student loans, many of which will never even be paid back.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

But that's the vicious cycle. Because you were saying people can't exist in some of these areas without the federal spending at the rural hospital now because they don't have private sector or insurance. They're the big factory that employed people. It's gone. And so they're basically we're in a vicious cycle. Kind of is how I see.

[Crystal]

It's very hard to attract companies to move to an area if there's no hospital. And a university helps too.

[Ryan]

Yeah, I think certainly. And you know, one thing with respect to university I think that's very important is we concentrate all of our, you know, federal research spending for leading edge research in a very few places. There's no reason we have to do that, especially in the sort of with modern communication and so forth. It's not like you need all the best scientists of every kind living in Cambridge, Massachusetts or you know, Palo Alto, California or even New York City. There's no reason you can't take that sort of funding and direct it more towards having great labs in every state university around the country and start pushing things back out that way. The reason I just emphasize the sort of public spending of EDs and MEDs, as they call it, is just to say the reason that's how the landscape looks today is because we've hollowed out the rest of it so completely. And you're right, given that the vicious cycle that we're in, bootstrapping it the other way requires a lot of attention to these things. But I think it's very important that the aspiration not be, well, as long as we have enough funding for healthcare and higher education, all of these places can survive. But rather to say, no, no, no, the long term goal has to be that these are productive, flourishing places that can also support a healthy hospital system that wants to have a college and so forth, but that first and foremost is a viable community.

[Crystal]

I would just finish one practical and pragmatic point, that if we want to get to a place where as American citizens, citizens, we're actually discussing among ourselves how we're going to solve some of these problems, because I agree with you it's not sufficient to get to embed meaning and citizenship to deal with immigration, but it is necessary to deal with first. I would just say to the millions of people that came across during the Biden administration like their policy or don't like the policy. It was the policy that was in place and they actually did follow the rules of this policy that was in place. If there's insistence that it has to be a Stephen Miller approach where mandatory detention is required for people who haven't committed any crimes, not even bail, while they're contesting these asylum claims or anything else, they're just locked in these detention facilities and they're getting scooped up off the street. If that's going to be the way that Republicans when they're in power insist on dealing with immigration, then Democrats are never going to come around on the other parts of it. They're never going to say, okay, wrong on this, wrong on this. Let's do a comprehensive type of reform that gets us to a place where we can have a rational policy. That's just my guess.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

This is not very hopeful that if

[Crystal]

Republicans have to say, okay, let's focus on violent criminals, then let's focus on. But they have Republicans have their own agency if they just want to.

[Ryan]

Well, look, this is why I say there are different ways to enforcement. And this is why I think the workplace enforcement is a much better test, because I agree with you. One thing we've found in certainly it shows in the polling data we've had, you'll lose. For people writing for commonplace about this, that that's right. The most sort of confrontational, aggressive approach to enforcement is not popular with a lot of people. Workplace enforcement saying if you're not here legally, if you are not allowed to work here, you in fact can't work here. That has an extraordinarily powerful effect. Again, not in overnight detaining people and destroying their lives necessarily, but in creating a very strong pressure for people to depart in an orderly way. And so I think it's a very helpful litmus test. Is your objection to the way they're doing it or is your objection to the notion that these people really do need to leave? And if it's just we would like to do this in a humane way, workforce enforcement offers that. And so I think that's where you see a lot of folks.

[Crystal]

I think Miller's approach requires the inhumanity.

[Ryan]

And I understand that criticism. I understand that criticism Trump is doing today. I think the flip side of your point about what Democrats will accept is well, if Democrats won't even accept workforce enforcement, if we can't actually get to a place where everybody agrees, I think they would.

[Crystal]

As long as there's a path for people who came here through the process to get a work permit, then I think they're fine with that.

[Ryan]

This is exactly what I'm telling you this is. The actual question is the people is the millions and millions of people who came in here who, in frankly, a very lawless way during the Biden administration is the end of the.

[Crystal]

It's not just the Biden administration.

[Ryan]

You're right.

[Crystal]

And even before that, one of my. One of my good friends from growing up is a contractor, and he's like, give me a union hall where I can go and hire legal people, and I'm happy to do that. Love to pay the wages, whatever. I don't care. You. You, as in the broad you. Our government, our society, have built a system where that is not possible. So then you go in, and then you take all these workers and then deport them without there being another option.

[Ryan]

Well, let's be clear.

[Crystal]

It's completely insane. This is an apolitical guy who's like my framer, supported.

[Ryan]

I think this is an instance where this connects really, to this richer sense of citizenship, which is one of the reasons you, as a contractor, can't go do that, because if you do, you'll just lose out to the people who are doing the other thing. And so it's fine to say, like,

[Crystal]

the union hall doesn't exist.

[Ryan]

Right. But one reason the union hall doesn't exist is because who would go higher from the union hall if there's a massive exploitable population of undocumented immigrants to hire instead? And so it is a prerequisite, again, to having the kind of economic life we want that does give workers power, that does create that opportunity. Let me just finish the point.

[Walla Blogay]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

It's a fantasy to have an economic life where we enforce labor law, have a tight labor market, and have good jobs for Americans.

[Crystal]

It is a fantasy that you're going to be able to grab 20 million people.

[Ryan]

Well, you just use grab again, why can't I just enforce workforce law? Why can't I just enforce the law on the books against employers who employ people legally?

[Crystal]

Well, you're still gonna have to grab people.

[Ryan]

No, I'm not.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Or not.

[Ryan]

I'm going to fine employers and perhaps even arrest some employers if they continue to employ people.

[Crystal]

The point is, you have to also support the other side like you have

[Ryan]

to, but you haven't told me why that's a fantasy. Why can't I just require that employers follow the law?

[Crystal]

Because all of the housing construction will stop.

[Ryan]

So now we're back to jobs Americans won't do. And that's just not the way to get citizenship.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Or at least there'll be a temporary pause.

[Crystal]

I'm just saying, practically speaking, I'm not.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Or slow down.

[Crystal]

I'm not saying virtuous or not virtuous. It's just practically speaking. And then politically you lose. So there has to be be some mechanism for people to hire people legally. I would say give people who are here who are following the law work permits. Why is that? What's wrong with that?

[Ryan]

Well, for one thing, because they are not currently here legally and we should have been enforcing the law along, and we can do that now. Or a second thing, because the exact

[Crystal]

workers, they're competing, we built the wrong system. Nobody else coming in but the people here. Now we're going to give them work permits and anybody who hires somebody illegally, like you're getting significant consequences.

[Ryan]

Yeah, well, because a lot of the problem is that the exact class of people who these workers are competing with are the ones who have seen a very weak job market for a very long time, in part because of this competition. And we should be trying to tighten that job market aggressively. People in the upper half of the income distribution, people with college degrees. And this is again, where we've had this divergence in society. You know, take for granted that this stuff is all fine. We should want the same kind of experience in the job market for the construction worker that you or I get to experience. And that requires a much tighter job market than we have had. And so, you know, to some extent, I guess I even question your premise that, you know, housing construction come to a stop. I think one thing we can do, if you want to say, you know, we need a transition period, we need to phase this out over a few years, that's fine. But the end point should be essentially where we started here, which is that citizenship is about the American citizens. That is who this republic exists for, that is who formed the republic. And the question is, what is the set of policies that's going to serve them best?

[Crystal]

That's my point. You got to transition to it. And what we're doing now isn't actually going to transition to that.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

I don't think we'll probably have to leave it there, but thank you so much. Oren Kass, American Compass that was a really interesting conversation. We appreciate it. Folks, can Check out the new project in Commonplace on the Compass website. Thanks, Oren.

[Ryan]

Thank you, guys.

[Host (possibly Ryan or Crystal)]

Well, that does it for us on today's edition of Breaking Points. We apologize. The show is going to hit premium subs inboxes a little bit late because we had set a great conversation with Oren Cass. Our producers were like rap, rap. But we wanted to just. No, I thought it was great. I didn't want to disrupt the flow of that. It's definite me. But thank you everyone so much for joining us today. We appreciate it and we, Ryan and I will be back Friday with I think Crystal and Griffin.

[Crystal]

All right, see you then.

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[Ryan]

Learn [e-mail] this is an iHeart podcast.

[Walla Blogay]

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