6/5/25: The View Slams Male Republicans As Sexist, Trump Floats Diddy Pardon, AOC Backs Zohran In NYC

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – Episode Summary Release Date: June 5, 2025

Episode Title: The View Slams Male Republicans As Sexist, Trump Floats Diddy Pardon, AOC Backs Zohran In NYC

Hosts: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

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1. The View Criticizes Male Republicans as Sexist

The episode opens with a discussion surrounding a controversial segment from The View, where Joy Behar and her co-hosts labeled male Republicans as sexist. This sparked significant debate about gender dynamics and political alliances.

Key Points:

• The View conducted a study highlighting that young men feel a crisis related to masculinity, leading to increased anxiety and confusion about their roles in society.
• Joy Behar argued that men’s sexism contributes to their alienation from the Democratic Party, suggesting that labeling men as sexist is a step towards addressing deeper societal issues.

Notable Quotes:

• Joy Behar: “I think there are statistical indicators that men are becoming more isolated and feeling marginalized in today’s political landscape.” [07:15]
• Tom Yamas: “Now that young men feel they're being lectured about their masculinity, it’s making them feel like being strong and assertive is inherently bad.” [07:15]

2. Democratic Party's Struggle to Engage Male Voters

Krystal and Saagar delve into the broader implications of The View’s comments, analyzing why the Democratic Party is struggling to connect with male voters and how this disconnect is contributing to men’s shift towards the Republican Party.

Key Points:

• The Democrats’ focus on diversity and inclusion may inadvertently alienate white male voters who feel their traditional roles are being undermined.
• There is a perception among some men that the Democratic Party views masculinity as toxic, leading to a sense of disenfranchisement.
• Traditional Democratic strategies, such as policy-based appeals, lack the emotional resonance that Republican messaging, often centered on identity and values, provides.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Yamas: “Apparently they feel like we have been lecturing them and telling them that they are too masculine, they are too toxic, they are too disgusting.” [07:15]
• Tom Brokaw: “What’s the use of the Democrats’ multimillion-dollar efforts if they’re not addressing the emotional and identity-based concerns of men?” [09:32]

3. Diddy’s Criminal Trial: Overview and Implications

The conversation shifts to the ongoing trial of rapper and mogul Sean "Diddy" Combs, who faces charges related to violence, coercion, and sex trafficking.

Key Points:

• The prosecution has presented substantial evidence, including multiple witnesses testifying to Diddy’s controlling and violent behavior.
• Specific incidents highlighted include Diddy bribing hotel staff to obtain security footage and coercing artists through financial pressures.
• The case is framed as a criminal enterprise rather than isolated acts of violence, with charges under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Yamas: “Diddy shows up with cash and a money counter. They give him the tape, and then he counts out $100,000, even though the fee was only $50,000.” [32:07]
• Lester Holt: “This is a criminal enterprise, not just individual acts of violence, which is not what this case is fundamentally about.” [36:05]

4. Trump’s Potential Pardon of Diddy

The discussion turns to former President Donald Trump’s consideration of pardoning Diddy, exploring the political ramifications of such an action.

Key Points:

• Trump has floated the idea of pardoning Diddy, which could be seen as a strategic move to gain favor with certain voter demographics.
• The potential pardon raises concerns about the integrity of the justice system and the message it sends regarding accountability for high-profile individuals.
• There is speculation about whether Diddy’s team is actively seeking Trump’s intervention and what motivations might underlie such an attempt.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Yamas: “Trump is a total wild card in this. I don’t expect him to look at it and say there were actual problems here, actual miscarriages of justice.” [46:55]
• Tom Yamas: “Trump is considering pardoning Diddy, which could have significant implications for voter perceptions and the broader political landscape.” [45:52]

5. AOC’s Endorsement of Zohran in NYC Mayoral Race

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) has publicly endorsed Zohran Mamdani in the New York City mayoral race, marking a significant political development.

Key Points:

• Zohran Mamdani, backed by AOC, represents a progressive alternative in the mayoral race, challenging the establishment candidate, Andrew Cuomo.
• The endorsement has energized certain voter segments but also sparked controversy, especially regarding Mamdani’s stance on Israel and his political strategies.
• Krystal and Saagar discuss whether AOC’s timing and method of endorsement are effective, considering Mamdani’s current standing in the polls and the existing dynamics of the race.

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Brokaw: “AOC is now endorsing Zohran Mamdani, bringing significant attention and potentially swaying voters who align with her progressive agenda.” [52:16]
• Krystal Ball: “AOC’s endorsement could either rally her base or isolate Mamdani among voters who are skeptical of his political maneuvers.” [67:43]

Insights and Conclusions

The episode underscores a critical juncture in American politics where traditional party alignments are being challenged by shifting demographics and societal values. The criticism from The View reflects a broader struggle within the Democratic Party to retain male voters, while the high-profile Diddy trial and potential Trump pardon illustrate the interplay between celebrity, justice, and political strategy. Additionally, AOC’s endorsement of Zohran Mamdani highlights the ongoing tensions between progressive ideals and pragmatic politics within key electoral arenas like New York City.

Overall Themes:

• Gender and Politics: The intersection of masculinity and political affiliation is proving to be a battleground for both major parties.
• Justice and Power: The Diddy trial exemplifies how power dynamics and celebrity status can complicate the pursuit of justice.
• Political Endorsements: Endorsements from influential figures like AOC can have significant, albeit unpredictable, impacts on election outcomes.

Final Thoughts: Krystal and Saagar emphasize the need for the Democratic Party to develop more emotionally resonant and inclusive strategies to engage men, moving beyond policy-centric approaches. They also caution against the political exploitation of high-profile legal cases and stress the importance of authentic endorsements that align with broader progressive values.

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For those interested in delving deeper into these discussions, tuning into the full episode of “Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar” on iHeartPodcasts is highly recommended.

Transcript

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For NBC Nightly News, I'm Tom Yamas. A new chapter begins NBC Nightly News with Tom Yamas evenings on NBC. Over the years of making my true crime podcast Hell n Gone, I've learned no town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've heard from hundreds of people across the country with an unsolved murder in their community. I was calling about the murder of my husband.

[Tom Yamas]

The murder is still out there.

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[Lester Holt]

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[Tom Yamas]

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[Tom Yamas]

Hope to see you at Breaking points. Com.

[Lester Holt]

Very happy to be joined this morning by a longtime friend of mine, additional MSNBC refugee here, Torre, who is doing all kinds of cool stuff. Now you are blowing up on TikTok. Been covering the Diddy trial really closely, among other things. You got a substack. You've got a new show, Truth talks live on YouTube. That people should go ahead and check out. How are you my friend?

[Tom Yamas]

I'm good, I'm good. I'm upset about the situation that's going on in Gaza and I've been doing a lot of cnn, a lot of Abby Phillips show where you get arguing with the right. I don't usually talk to people from the right in my real life cuz usually they're, I don't know, they're often in space. There was a segment that really bothered me about the rise of antisemitism in America and I think that that is real. Although we can talk about that. Cuz I saw another segment that talked about how the ADL is inflating those numbers. But I think that Israel is making the world less safe for American Jews by destroying the image of Israel through this genocide.

[Lester Holt]

Well, and by insisting that Israel and Judaism are one and the same. By erasing any sort of anti Zionist Jewish voices who have been incredibly influential and instrumental in the pro Palestine protest movement here.

[Tom Yamas]

We have definitely seen more Jewish people in the pro Palestine movement over the last year, year and a half. And it's also, it's really disgusting the way that a lot of folks who are on that side try to reduce Palestinian people, many of whom are 50% of that population, are children. But they wanna talk about them as if they are all Hamas and they are all terrorists. And the dehumanization that you mentioned last segment is absolutely real. As if they are not real people and we can kill them. They are all animals, even if they are young, even if they are children. And I think the world sees the way that Israel is approaching Palestine and many people are responding in an appropriate way. The encampments, the college protests have been a very appropr. Appropriate and aggressive way to protest. Now we've also seen horrific violent antisemitism that is obviously not appropriate. But when a country sets its image on fire in the world, what do you think is going to happen?

[Lester Holt]

Well, you know, it's funny. Ken Klippenstein actually got the intel report on the guy here who murdered the two Israeli embassy officials. And in it they say in this report they don't talk about anti Semitism, they talk. He is motivated by the horrors that he's seeing unfolding in Gaza and the fact that he feels there is no democratic way in order to effectuate change. And so it's important to understand that even while obviously saying this violence against civilians is exactly the reason why we are opposed to the genocide occurring in, in Palestine, in Gaza. But you know that is the administration's assessment that this was not actually quote, unquote, anti Semitism, that this is a direct result of the horrors that we are all watching in our feeds every day. So appreciate you offering your perspective there, Tory, especially since you are on CNN all the time and sort of inside these rooms. Still Also wanted to get your thoughts today on a couple of things. So we're going to talk about the Diddy trial, which I'm looking forward to. But I also wanted to get your thoughts and Ryan's thoughts on this effort among Democrats to figure out what's going on with the men. Right there is this big, significant conversation I think is important about the way that men and young men in particular have been moving to the right, coming on the heels of a Bernie Sanders coalition that was smeared as being too male and too young and whatever. And then once they trashed that part of the coalition, it started to shift away from them. So there's this ever official multimillion dollar effort to talk to the men and figure out what's going on. And let's go ahead and start with the ladies of the View and Joy Behar in particular and her take on this study and what the Democratic Party should really be doing in terms of men. Look, I don't know that you learn how to talk to men by being in a conference center at a New.

[Tom Yamas]

York hotel, holed up with strategists and experts in suits. I think people need to go into.

[Lester Holt]

The barrios and the neighborhoods and the barbershops and the places where real people are. And I think one of the problems that the Democrats have, several of them, but one of the things is they keep talking about how weak their brand is and how bad their team is. I never met a man, I never met a woman. I never met a human who wants.

[Tom Yamas]

To join a losing team.

[Lester Holt]

So maybe start projecting some, you know, winning attitude.

[Tom Brokaw]

You know what I think? I think it's a waste of money.

[Lester Holt]

Maybe these guys should spend their money on teaching men to not be such sexist. Maybe that's. But the stats don't bear that out.

[Tom Yamas]

Now that.

[Lester Holt]

Thank you. Now that we've seen the election results, Donald Trump performed better than the previous several Republicans with most every people group. He did better with black men, better with Latino men, better with white men and white women. Like it's just a fact that he has tapped into something. And what I think. But he was running against a woman, I'm telling you. But I'm saying that men showed up more for him. So you Think that Democrats who were with Biden in 2020 left to be with Trump because they're sexist. I don't know the reason, but it's very suspicious. So tore, do we need Democrats to spend more time lecturing men about how they're too sexist? Is that going to bring them back into the party fold?

[Tom Yamas]

No. I mean, apparently they feel like we have been lecturing them and telling them that they are too masculine, they are too toxic, they are too disgusting. I understand what these young guys are saying, that the Democratic world, not necessarily just the politicians, but all the people around them who are liberal in public or progressive in public, are making them feel like being masculine is inherently a bad thing. And being Republican means being strong, and being Democrat means being weak. And we've been dealing with that, I think, stereotype for a long time. Right? I mean, the Democrats have been the mommy party for a long time and the Republicans have been the tough on foreign policy Daddy Party. We have all these sneaky conservative outlets now. Joe Rogan is not overtly conservative, but he keeps giving you conservative ideas. Right? Aiden Ross, these others who are not overtly conservative. There's definitely an image problem among men and Democrats who used to be. We used to be the party of unions. So clearly working guys thought the Dems were there for them at one point in our lifetimes. I'm not quite sure quite how you get back to that when we love the intellectual Dem, right? I mean, think about, like Barack from Harvard and Bill the way, I mean, we love the intellectuals. Even Bernie, as much as we love him, he's an intellectual. There's gotta be a different way of communicating with people.

[Tom Brokaw]

I don't know. Although Bernie worked like Bernie had the young guys across the board. That clip, though, to me, was so revealing. That View clip. First of all, Ana Navarro is kind of misunderstanding what's going on here. It's like she's like, you're not gonna win over men in luxury hotels. No, they're not going to luxury hotels to win over men. They're going to luxury hotels to shake down rich people for a bunch of money. And then they're gonna use that money to like, you know, do content and stuff that tries to reach what the barbershop and the. And the borrowers and all that. Like, that's how that pipeline works. But the Joy Behar one was even more revealing. Like, she's like, why would you do this? Because men suck.

[Lester Holt]

It made more sympathetic to this study, actually.

[Tom Brokaw]

It's like, why you need.

[Tom Yamas]

It definitely seemed like she had not prepared for the segment because if she had read the notes about the study, she would know you're doing the exact opposite of what Debs need to do.

[Lester Holt]

Well, I don't know. The audience ate it up, which was the other revealing part of what happened there. Let's go ahead and put D2 up on the screen just so we can see a little bit of what the the study is revealing so far. So the focus groups found young men feel they're in crisis, stressed, ashamed and confused over what it means to be a man in 2025. They vented about conflicting cultural messages of masculinity that put them in a no win situation around the meaning of a man. According to the Sam, what is it? What does SAM stand for again? Speaking.

[Tom Brokaw]

Speaking about men.

[Lester Holt]

About that. I don't know. Put the next piece up on the screen. This speaks to some of what we've been saying for a while. They describe how the COVID pandemic left them isolated, socially disconnected. They said they now feel overwhelmed by economic anxiety, making traditional milestones like buying a home or saving for kids college feel impossible. One analysis of the research said. And we've got, I think one more quote we can put up here too. Democrats are seen as weak, you were saying some of this Torre, whereas Republicans are seen as strong, according to Elise Hogue, who is involved with this young man, also spoke of being invisible to the Democratic coalition. And so you've got this weak problem and then you've got this I don't think they care about me problem. And I think the combination is kind of a killer. And to be honest with you, I don't really disagree with any of that. I think the part that's a little like lol is that you needed to pay millions of dollars to come to these conclusions, which to me are fairly straightforward and obvious. That when the traditional definition of what it means to be a man is to be a provider, to be able to have the job and make the money and support the family and support the wife and the kids and the house and the picket fence and whatever. And over decades we've stripped that ability away, that that is going to create some, you know, some upset, some dislocation and some searching for answers.

[Tom Yamas]

It does. It also represents the fundamental problem that the Democratic Party has right now in that for so long we have been about uplifting people who are not traditionally at the table, right? Black, brown, female, working class, through unions. That's healthcare. Right. That's what we, you know, we're about affirmative Action. We're about lifting up the working right. And so that means we are not here for the people in power. And I remember, I think it was like 15 years ago now. Harvard did a study that said white people see race as a zero sum game, that they are losing, which is just the notion of the people in power. When we start to try to add some equity, they feel like they are losing. They are the victims. They are losing something in society. And here we are again, straight white men, as Democrats try to say, hey, can we also give some power and some pieces of justice to trans people, gay people, women, black and brown people? And they're like, my God, you're taking away all my rights. We are literally not. But that's how you feel.

[Tom Brokaw]

I think it's a question of whether or not there's a welcome place in the coalition for and were white guys. And, you know, I grew up a poor white guy. And in the 1980s and 1990s, the place for those people and the place where I would feel at home was within the Democratic Party. There wasn't any question, like the Republicans were the party of Reagan, the party of George H.W. bush. They were the party for rich country club. Yeah.

[Tom Yamas]

Yep.

[Tom Brokaw]

Now I'm an upper middle class white guy. And the Democrats are still the party that, where you're, you know, a white upper middle class guy is gonna be welcomed in. Welcome. Also in the Republican Party, white middle class guys, they're. I mean, upper middle class guys, they're welcome everywhere.

[Tom Yamas]

Welcome everywhere, Ryan.

[Tom Brokaw]

Welcome everywhere. But if you're a poor white guy now, like, it does not feel like the Democratic Party kind of wants you in there. And Joy Behar is saying, like right there. And I don't think it's just white either anymore. Democratic Party Joy Behar said men are sexist. Like, stop being so sexist. Like, do we really want these men in here who are gonna be sexist?

[Tom Yamas]

We're gonna need some of them if we're gonna win an election.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yes, exactly. And so I think this uproar about this study, I think it's worth unpacking where it comes from, because if you think about it, of course, it's the Republicans when they were losing with women, they went out and studied women, tried to figure out how to win them back. And that was comical. But what was comical about it was not that they were trying to win them back, but it was that they had to study them in the first place, that they had gone so far around the bend that they had lost women. So Badly that they needed to hire people to explain to how to talk to these mysterious creatures. And so now the Democrats are stuck in the exact same place. So it's obvious they do need to do this. And apparently the only way that Democratic elites will listen to anything is if it comes through a, you know, multi million dollar focus groups rather than just, you know, like would be a preferable way of doing is just naturally attracting people into your coalition.

[Lester Holt]

But yeah, the other thing that drives me crazy, Ryan, about that too is like, you did have an example with Bernie Sanders where it worked. So like, and that seems to me much better data and research than your sort of inorganic focus groups. You have a very recent example that was very successful with this group and did not require you to like, abandon your principles or like, you know, become sexist. So go ahead, Torey.

[Tom Yamas]

No, I mean, I think, I mean, obviously that's right. I think Dems are still speaking to young men and to most people in an intellectual, logical way. I will help you with this policy, this program that you should intellectually understand is gonna be beneficial for you. And then Republicans, Trump does this even better. But most Republicans come with an emotional thing that grabs you and makes you feel like, yes, this is a team that gets me that, that is a thing that bothers me. And they understand those emotional triggers much better than the Democratic Party does.

[Tom Brokaw]

And I wanted to underline one of the things that was in that political article, which is their use of the term economic anxiety. So the, the people who did these focus groups and did these studies said we now understand that men have genuine economic anxiety about their place in the world in 2015. If you remember, if you ever used the term economic anxiety, you would get piled on on Twitter and say, stop talking about economic anxiety when you're not using the terms that you really mean, which is these are people who are racist and sexist. And yes, and so it's belated. But 10 years later they're like, okay, they actually are feeling economic anxiety.

[Tom Yamas]

And that, yes, there is genuine economic anxiety because the economy does not allow people in their 20s to reach the benchmarks that they did when the previous generations. Yeah, fine, but they are also being racist. They are also being white supreme. They are also in love with white privilege and seeing it seep away. So both those things are.

[Lester Holt]

But Tory, how do you then grapple with that? You have not just white men moving into the Trump coalition, but you have black and brown men moving into the Trump coalition. And I mean, I'll tell you, my view is when you have these heightened levels of economic anxiety and people feeling like they don't know how they're gonna find their place. They don't know how they're gonna achieve the things that their father and grandfather were able to achieve. That opens them up for the Trumpian explanations, the far right explanations of scapegoating this group and that group, whether it's trans people or immigrants or college educated women or whoever the villain of the day happens to be. And so to me, I don't think you could ever truly disentangle those two things because I think they are connected and I think there is a relationship there.

[Tom Yamas]

Yeah, I mean, I think that the black movement there is perhaps less significant than we've been talking about. It was not a gigantic coalition. He was not statistically way out of line with what Republicans have gotten. I think some black men responded to some of the same things that white men responded to as far as masculinity, as far as misogyny against Kamala, as far as a sense that I clearly understand what this candidate wants and I don't understand clearly what that candidate wants. So some of them may have come to it with that sort of math. I think that when we think about Latino voters, we have wrongly thought that they would think of themselves politically as people of color, and many of them do not. And they vote as if they were white people. And we are, as Dems, we are like thrown off by like, we thought this would become our coalition. And they're like, no, we want to assimilate. We wanna make money. Even if he anti Hispanic things, we are still rolling with him. It's a tricky position for the Democratic Party. We see right. As unpopular as Trump is, the Democrats are even less popular. And I'm not even sure who is the person who will be the leader to get us out of this. We both love Bernie, but we need somebody. I assume he's too old to actually be the savior himself, right?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah. So the question then I have is things are getting objectively worse for men across the board in America. Things are getting objectively worse for women across the board in America. This is true. Things are getting probably relatively a little worse for men than for women by all the standards, but they're getting worse for everybody. So then what is the acceptable way for men to. To express that anxiety politically? They tried in 2015 and 16 with Bernie Sanders and were told that that's not an acceptable way of doing it because you're actually just racist and sexist and you're afraid of having Hillary Clinton as the nominee. Obviously it's not acceptable to do with Trump. It's deplorable and he's racist and sexist, so you can't, you know, express it through him either. So then how, like, what vehicle do men have to say, I think the world is getting worse and I want it to change without being dunked on?

[Tom Yamas]

It's a great question. Do you really not understand the question or are you just throwing me a question?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah. What is an acceptable way for somebody who feels that way to express themselves?

[Tom Yamas]

I think with Trump the message has been quite muddy with racism and the notion that you are not getting what you deserve is wrapped up in racism. I would love to hear a genuine conversation with a politician who I don't believe is racist, who is not playing on white fragility and white victimhood to make the case of like, I can do better for you. Economic, we haven't yet seen that. We've come into this moment where we have this economic crisis and we have this population crisis because a lot of white people are afraid that they are about to become the minority versus people of color in this country. And so those two things and globalization are happening at the same time. If we could have just a conversation about the economy without it being wrapped up in racism, I would welcome that conversation. But I think that the racism has been cloaked in the economic argument. I think we understand quite often these people are blaming immigrants for things that are actually economic problems that are actually not their issue. Right. They are not bringing crime, they are not taking away American jobs. So they are an avatar for something that's not happening. So that's not a quality argument for men. So I, I would want to have the. Just let's start to have the conversation without piling in the racism. Cuz quite often it is just a way of hiding the racism.

[Lester Holt]

Last thing I'll say, and then we'll move to Diddy, is I think you were onto something. And I've been thinking about this recently when you were talking. I think this is somewhere the left needs to work on. Speaking as a leftist, when you say, yes, it's about the material concerns, but the other thing that the right has done is provided this sort of like hero story and like a sense of belong. Like there's more than just we're going to check the box of you're going to get health care and you're going to get minimum wage. Yes, those things are good. I think that would be a better, certainly a better political and policy path to Go on, et cetera. But I think part of the appeal of Bernie's movement wasn't just those material concerns being addressed. There was a sense of, like, belonging. We're on a team together and we're doing a thing, and here's our goal and here's our mission, and we're in this together. And, you know, I think to Ryan's question, like right now and what the Democratic Party is like having these struggle sessions about is figuring out how to, like, ultimately they need to figure out, you need an organic movement. You need a program that people believe in. You need a leader that's charismatic, that gets people buy into that program. That's not just about then, but that's about everybody succeeding and it not being some zero sum game. And to circle back to Joy Behar, you're probably not gonna get there by being like, you're bad. And here's why.

[Tom Yamas]

There's some psychosocial scholars who talk about left and right, conservative and liberal, progressive. And one of the things that keeps coming up is that conservatives and the right, they like hierarchy. They understand he is at the top and we are below. And I think Dems innately understand a more flattened society sort of situation where, like, we're a group without a strong hierarchy. And I think young men respond to that. This sort of notion of, like, here's this big, strong, tough guy who's gonna be our leader, and they're like, yeah, that's great. And somebody who's like dem, who's like, let's work together and have a coalition and figure things out together. It's a little too Kumbaya for them.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah. I think an interesting flip of that is Bernie's slogan of not me, us. And that appeals to that flat lateral element. But he's also a guy who's been saying the same stuff for 30, 40, 50 years. And so people believed, okay, it's yes, not me, us, but also it's him because he has integrity and we're going to follow him, but it's all of us doing it together. And I think. Tory, I'm curious for your. Tori, I'm curious for your take on this. I think the answer would be if Democrat. And the reason it's not going to come out of these luxury hotels if Democrats fight powerful corporate and oligarch interests, there's a masculine energy to that. Like, it's. And Bernie Sanders, despite not being, you know, a man's man like he was, he was fighting against the 1% and the millionaires and the billionaires. And so.

[Lester Holt]

And casting you in a role as hero, what you're doing for others. Yeah.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right. We're gonna all collectively fight for a better world. And so we're gonna. It's not gonna be toxic masculinity. It's going to be. But it is going to be a masculine, aggressive effort against the people who are robbing.

[Tom Yamas]

That would be amazing. The corporate Democratic Party would never do that.

[Tom Brokaw]

Exactly. That's why.

[Tom Yamas]

Yeah. I mean, like, that's why they have.

[Tom Brokaw]

To do just a care. They just do a care. We're gonna take care of everybody, but we're not gonna fight anybody because. And it's not because they're mommies. It's because they're sellouts and they're bought off.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah. That's basically what welcome Fest is all about. This week is like, let's make sure that challenging corporate power.

[Tom Brokaw]

Because mommies, if it was actually a party of moms, like, moms fight hard.

[Lester Holt]

That is true.

[Tom Brokaw]

They fight.

[Tom Yamas]

Yeah. But mom takes care of you. Mom nurtures you. It's not sexy. Right. Dad goes out to fight. And these are obviously ancient stereotypes, but, like, that's. The Daddy party will attack the barbarians in Iran. But if a mommy party will, like if the family wear your seatbelt.

[Lester Holt]

The mama bear. The Sarah Palin mama bear trope.

[Tom Brokaw]

When your company earns unlimited 2% cash back on all purchases with Capital One, that's serious business.

[Tom Yamas]

So Stephen at Sandcloud got a serious business card. The Spark Cash plus card from Capital One. We used our 2% cash back to help build our retail presence.

[Tom Brokaw]

Savvy Stephen.

[Tom Yamas]

And we get big purchasing power so our business can spend more and earn more. The SparkCash card from Capital One.

[Tom Brokaw]

What's in your wallet?

[Lester Holt]

Terms and conditions apply. Find out [e-mail] SparkCashPlus over the past six years of making my true crime podcast Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband.

[Tom Yamas]

It's a cold case.

[Lester Holt]

They've never found her. And it haunts me to this day.

[Tom Yamas]

The murderer is still out.

[Lester Holt]

Every week on Hell and Gone Murder line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's daughter.

[Tom Yamas]

She was still somebody's sister.

[Lester Holt]

There's so many questions that we've never gotten any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Helen Gone murder line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Helen Gone Murderline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your gut microbiome, and those healthy bacteria can actually have positive effects throughout your body. Not just your gut, but your mental health, your metabolism, your immunity, your risk of cancer, heart disease, almost any disease under the sun. Yep, you heard right. Probiotics might actually impact everything from your.

[Tom Yamas]

Brain to your heart.

[Lester Holt]

So what's science and what's just really good marketing? On this episode of Dope Labs, me and Zakiya cut through the hype and get into the real deal behind probiotics, with help from gastroenterologist Dr. Roshi Raj. So, yes, bacteria is definitely having a.

[Tom Brokaw]

Moment, and I'm very excited about that.

[Lester Holt]

From probiotic drinks and gummies to face creams and pillows. Yep, we said pillows.

[Tom Yamas]

The probiotic boom is everywhere. But how much of it actually works? And what does it all mean for.

[Lester Holt]

Your gut, your skin, and even your mood?

[Tom Yamas]

Join us on Dope Labs, where we.

[Lester Holt]

Break it all down in the lab. Like, only we can listen to Dope Labs on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.

[Tom Yamas]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lester Holt]

Let's move on to what's going on with, with Diddy here, because you've been, you know, blowing up on TikTok, talking about this trial. What are we now? What are two weeks in, three weeks in?

[Tom Yamas]

This is the end of the third week.

[Lester Holt]

Okay, so let's put this Business Insider tear sheet up on the screen that had some of the key details here. And I think most people will be familiar with the horrific hotel video of Cassie being beaten and dragged by Diddy. And they played this pretty early in the trial to sort of set the stage that the prosecution did. And it is also critical to their case about, hey, this was an act that was taking place in the context of sex trafficking, which is one of the charges here. So just take us through sort of the broad strokes of where we are right now.

[Tom Yamas]

We have heard the government is still putting on their case. They have produced many, many witnesses who have said Diddy was violent, Diddy was controlling. Diddy was using his organization to control Cassie. We've heard so many insane stories. Just yesterday, this woman who's a friend of Cassie's, got on the stand and talked about Diddy dangling her over a 17th story balcony and then dropping her onto the furniture of the balcony. The $100,000 thing you mentioned is an incredible moment because it brings in multiple predicate crimes that the government needs to prove in order to prove racketeering. Long story short, did he beat up Cassie? It was videotaped. His chief of staff and Diddy himself both went to the hotel personally multiple times saying, we need that tape. Finally, the hotel first said, we can't give it to you. We don't have access to that room. And then they kept pressing the issue, and the guy's boss says, okay, give us 50k. And I'm like, I didn't know that this sort of a bribe would happen that easily. Like, well, if you just pony up 50k, then you can get whatever security tape you want.

[Lester Holt]

Jesus.

[Tom Yamas]

So Diddy shows up with cash and a money counter. They give him the tape, and then he counts out 100,000, even though the fee was only 50,000. And they're like, what? This is for the other guys? So he's proactively bribing the other people in the situation. So this is multiple bribes. This is obstruction of justice. This is witness tampering. That's three separate predicate crimes. In one story. He's also committed kidnapping, which is also that. Extortion. We just saw that extortion proved because the CFO of Bad boy came up very briefly and said, yes, we did receive $20,000 from Cassie's father, which happened after Puffy said, I'm mad at you, and I'm gonna put out this sex tape if you don't give me 20k. And so they took out a home equity load so that they could access 20k and sent it to Diddy. But the other part of that story that I noticed, she was a recording artist at Bad Boy for at least four years. When the $20,000 extortion request was made and her mom takes out a home equity loan, she was not liquid enough to come up with $20,000 in an absolute emergency. As a recording artist, clearly she's kept with no money. So this is how he's coercing her. Cause you get. As a recording artist, you're gonna get money when your album comes out, right? Like, generally, they give you an advance to go make the album, and then when you come back for the next album, they give you another check. So if you're not putting out albums and you're not touring, you're not getting any money. So he's keeping her in this economic prison.

[Tom Brokaw]

It sounds like you don't need the freak offs to make the case here. Is that right? It's because a lot of this stuff.

[Tom Yamas]

The freak off, is the center of the whole thing. The government's case is that the whole operation is to get the freak offs to happen and to facilitate them, to make them happen, to control Cassie so she stays in the organization and then to clean up after them. Like in this situation when we needed to get that tape, okay, the chief of staff and Diddy's corporate money are getting that back for him. I think we started with Cassie. And yesterday the government put 10 sex tapes, including Cassie, into evidence under seal. And I think that what they're doing is they're preparing for the end of their case to be them showing these videos to the jury. The public and the gallery will not see them, but the jury will see them, I think. And that, I assume, will be quite.

[Lester Holt]

Devastating for the defense because my understanding is that, I mean, they have him dead to rights on all kinds of. I mean, he beat the shit out of her on multiple occasions. They've got all kinds of witnesses. They have another woman who came forward and said, he raped me too. You have the Kid Cudi incident where he reportedly bombed his car out of jealousy and was in his house and, you know, messing with his. The Christmas presents that he had wrapped up to give his family, like just total insane, unhinged, violent behavior. My understanding of what Diddyside is prepared to argue is basically like, that's domestic violence. That's not sex trafficking. And so is that where they're headed? And is that why the freak offs, which entailed, you know, bringing these male sex workers in and coercing Cassie and all of these things, is that why that becomes so central?

[Tom Yamas]

Well, yes, the freak offs are the central sex trafficking act that all of this is built to construct. The Kid Cudi story is actually quite devastating for Diddy because arson is also a predicate offense that proves racketeering that you use to build toward a racketeering case.

[Lester Holt]

So this is a criminal enterprise, not just individual acts of violence, which is not what this case is fundamentally about.

[Tom Yamas]

Right, right. And people keep going back to the notion of like, well, it's not a criminal enterprise like the Sopranos, which overtly tries to commit crime as its main job. Right. Lawyers have said to be, well, the money's going the wrong way. They're not making any money from the crimes they're committing. Fine. But like the sex trafficking, Cassie is Coerced and controlled by violence, by blackmail. I'll release the tape by economic means. If you don't do what I say, I will not put out your album. And by violence that Diddy has bodyguards who act like soldiers who go and retrieve her from wherever she is if he doesn't know where she is in any given moment. So she's stuck in this world. And she tells one of his assistants, I can't get out. So she's trapped in this thing. And thus used for sex trafficking or she is sex trafficked and used sexually week after week after week. She says the freak offs are like two to three, four days every week for like nine, 10 years. Like I don't even know how a person could function in that way when you're having that much every week. And it's like, she's like, we're not sleeping, we're just doing drugs and staying up for 48, you know, 72 hours.

[Lester Holt]

And like, well, and there's a horrible scene where I believe they're on a plane and he's beating the shit out of Cassie in the bedroom and there's all these people around and she says, don't you all see what's happening? And one of the other, you know, he was young at the time, 23 years old or something, assistants who was on the plane who then goes on to, you know, ultimately resign. But he watches all this happen and nobody does a thing, nobody does a thing to try to intervene and protect her from this ongoing violence and horrific abuse.

[Tom Yamas]

It's not, and you're not saying this, it's not domestic violence. Domestic violence is happening in this situation, but this is not a domestic violence case. He is using his power and his resources as a person who controls a massive corporation to control her. And that is why he's able to have her sexually every week and to beat her up and she cannot leave. So already the 10 album deal and the refusal to release any of your music already control, sir. Plus, I beat you up all the time. I pay for your apartment. So if I will extort you, I am blackmailing you. Cuz early on he's like, if you don't do everything that I say, I will release these tapes. I mean, one of the most horrific moments in the trial to me was when Mia. No, no, Capricorn said that they were arguing. She was arguing with Diddy about why she didn't have a boyfriend. And Diddy summoned Cassie into the room and said, sit down. And she did. And stand up and she did. And Then he said, turn around. And she did. And he said, y' all bitches don't wanna do that. That's why you don't have a man. But this is the level of control and humiliation that he's willing to dole out to her at any given moment.

[Lester Holt]

And Tori, what did they do in cross with Cassie to try to undermine her character? And you know, there's always this question of the perfect victim and the attempt to say, you know, she was into it and she liked it and she was participating and all of these sorts of things. What did they do on that front?

[Tom Yamas]

I mean, you know, they expose the complexity of trying to adjudicate what happened in a domestic violence situation. They talked about Cassie doing a lot of drugs. They talked about Diddy being jealous and being bipolar. And they talked about Cassie suggesting that she actually liked it. And they showed text messages of her basically saying, I can't wait to freak off. Lol. I'm always down for a freak off. Now she's consistently saying in general ways, yes, I wanna do this. I'm so happy about doing this. She's not saying it in very specific ways. Like if we really wanted to go have dinner, we would be talking about like, yes, I can't wait to eat the sushi or whatever it is. She's not discussing it like that. But you can take it like, does he know that she doesn't wanna do this? Cuz when he asks her, she says yes. But she also says if you read it critically, she'll be like, yes, but I wanna spend alone time with you or I can't wait to be with you. So she wants the alone time. She loves him. And I think that's another way that he's coercing and controlling her through love. And she keeps trying to get to the good part of their relationship, which is very typical in a DV situation that you think maybe we can erase or get away from the bad part and get back to the good part, which of course is impossible.

[Tom Brokaw]

And that's why I was asking about the centrality of the freak offs to the actual charges. Because if, if a jury comes away and says, all right, look, we've got these text messages, we think they're weird, but she seemed to not object. So he didn't like, you know, physically force her to participate in them, would there still be enough evidence of all these other crimes that even if a jury wants to be like, you know what, she participated in these willing, willingly, she's an adult, that's on her. But there's all these other obvious crimes, extortion and violence.

[Tom Yamas]

And it's a great lawyer question. I haven't passed the bar yet. That's the one thing Kim Kardashian has over me. But here's the thing that the government has to prove that he conspired, It's a conspiracy to rico. It's not a RICO charge. They have to prove that he conspired to commit two of this long list of offenses. And we have heard like eight or nine or 10 of them in this trial. So when they go to summation, they're gonna be like, look, we have proven this, we need two. And there's already a ton. And I named three in one story, there's two or three. There's three alone in the Kid Cudi story, cuz he kidnaps Capricorn within that. So I mean, there's multiple moments when the jury can be like, oh, he's hitting a lot of the predicate offenses that prove that this is a criminal. Somebody made the point. People keep saying, how could it be a RICO if there's only one person? Imagine a mobster with no lieutenants. He doesn't trust anybody else, so he just has underlings. But also, you can unwittingly participate in a conspiracy. You don't have to know. The person who sets up the hotel room for the freak offs does not have to know what's gonna happen there. Diddy does. So he's creating this whole situation so he can have the freak off. He's the planner. All they have to do. They don't have to prove that he did it. They just have to prove that he planted. He planned it.

[Tom Brokaw]

One question I've had, and maybe this hasn't even come up in the trial, is it seemed like he knew these charges were coming and made some kind of efforts to get out of here, get out of Dodge. How did Biddy end up with these charges taking so long to land? How was it that he didn't flee to somewhere that doesn't have extradition? And has that come up at all as consciousness of guilt, like attempts that he made?

[Tom Yamas]

It's a great question. We haven't gotten to the defense's part of the trial. Perhaps they'll mention that. I suspect that he was unable to leave the country. I suspect that once they raid you and they make it clear that they're going to arrest you, I believe that his attorneys were negotiating from a while ago and saying, please don't take him into custody now. We promise we won't Leave. And different assurances that they would not leave. When he was in prison on bail, he was saying, I'll sell my plane. I'm proving to you that. But look, when he is arrested, he has gone to New York City, where he does not live anymore, to effectuate the arrest, to be there, to make it more amenable, let's say. Now, the thing we have learned is that while he was in New York to allow himself to be arrested, he was also planning, it seems, on another freak off the hotel after they picked him up. And he was surprised that they picked him up when they did. They thought it was gonna be the next day or something like that. They go. Of course they go up in the hotel room and they're like, there's a lot of baby oil and Astroglide up.

[Lester Holt]

In here and a bunch of ecstasy or something, too.

[Tom Yamas]

You know what I mean? You're gonna do it again right now.

[Tom Brokaw]

One for the road.

[Lester Holt]

Last question for you, Tori. So Trump has floated he might be open to a party. A party. Hard in a party, too. You never know. Poor Diddy. We've seen this play on so many times of suddenly someone who's in trouble with the law, suddenly they love Donald Trump and they're the biggest MAGA fan ever, and this is the deep state coming to get them or whatever. Has he made any of those attempts to kind of appeal directly to Trump in order to try to be able to get this pardon?

[Tom Yamas]

We don't know. Obviously, Diddy cannot speak publicly right now. I saw a report that said that his group, his team, his allies, were trying to back channel to Trump. And then, of course, Trump said he had not heard anything about that. But we take all of Trump's words with a grain of salt. I imagine that it could happen. Trump is a total wild card. He pardoned NBA YoungBoy and Kodak Black. Alice Johnson may decide Diddy would be another good one to bring in some black voters. Right. I mean, it's this bizarre Okie doke of, like, we're gonna pardon specific individuals while we're taking away your rights over here. But that's the game we're playing. Trump's a total wild card in this. I don't expect him to look at it and say there were actual problems here, actual miscarriages of justice. It'll be like, do you like Diddy or not?

[Lester Holt]

Right. And how much are you willing to pay me? And what do I think the political benefit will be?

[Tom Yamas]

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, like, the release of Diddy at this point, would be extremely dangerous for a lot of people. A lot of people would be looking over their shoulder for quite a long time, myself included. And I'm sure I'm not top 99 on his list, but if he's petty enough to be making a list, I'm probably in the top hundred. But Cassie has a lot to be afraid of. He knows who Mia is. She worked for him. She sat in front of him in the courtroom. And so she has a lot to be afraid of. I mean, like, there's a lot of people who would be very afraid for a long time.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah. All right, Tori, tell people where they can find you and follow your work.

[Tom Yamas]

Yes, I am on a show called Truth Talks. You can find us on YouTube. Ruth talks live. I got a substack Culture Fries where we talk about Diddy and other things. Follow me on TikTok. And yeah, we're on Instagram too.

[Tom Brokaw]

I was just telling Torre that I don't follow many people on TikTok. He's one of the few that I do. So you're in my feed all the time. I love you too. You're killing it on there.

[Lester Holt]

I love it.

[Tom Yamas]

Gotta get Crystal back.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah, I've been slacking. I'll get back in the game, guys. Don't worry, Chairman.

[Tom Brokaw]

She needs that content.

[Lester Holt]

Tori, good to see you, my friend.

[Tom Yamas]

Thanks, guys. Love you. Bye.

[Lester Holt]

Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband.

[Tom Yamas]

It's a cold case.

[Lester Holt]

They've never found her. And it haunts me to this day.

[Tom Yamas]

The murderer is still out there.

[Lester Holt]

Every week on Helen Gone Murder line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's daughter.

[Tom Yamas]

She was still somebody's sister.

[Lester Holt]

There's so many questions that we've never gotten any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone murder line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murderline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tom Yamas]

This Pride month, we are not just celebrating, we're fighting back. I'm George M. Johnson, and my book All Boys Aren't Blue was just named the most banned book in America. If the culture wars have taught me anything, it's that pride is protest. And on my podcast, Fighting Words, we talk to people who use their voices to resist, disrupt, and make our community stronger.

[Lester Holt]

This year, we are showing up and showing out.

[Tom Yamas]

You need people being like, no, you're.

[Tom Brokaw]

Not going to tell us what to do.

[Lester Holt]

This regime is coming down on us.

[Tom Yamas]

And I don't want to just survive. I want to thrive. You'll hear from trust trailblazers like Bob the Drag Queen to freedom Angelica Ross. We ready to fight?

[Lester Holt]

I'm ready to fight. And Gabrielle Union. Hi, George.

[Tom Yamas]

And storytellers with wisdom to spare. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.

[Lester Holt]

Or wherever you get your podcasts. Your gut, microbiome and those healthy bacteria can actually have positive effects throughout your body. Not just your gut, but your mental health, your metabolism, your immunity, your risk of cancer, heart disease, almost any disease under the sun. Yep, you heard right. Probiotics might actually impact everything from your.

[Tom Yamas]

Brain to your heart.

[Lester Holt]

So what's science and what's just really good marketing? On this episode of Dope Labs, me and Zakiya cut through the hype and get into the real deal behind probiotics, with help from gastroenterologist Dr. Roshi Raj. So, yes, bacteria is definitely having a.

[Tom Brokaw]

Moment, and I'm very excited about that.

[Lester Holt]

From probiotic drinks and gummies to face creams and pillows. Yep, we said pillows.

[Tom Yamas]

The probiotic boom is everywhere. But how much of it actually works.

[Lester Holt]

And what does it all mean for your gut, your skin, and even your mood?

[Tom Yamas]

Join us on Dope Labs where we break it all down in the lab.

[Lester Holt]

Like only we can listen to Dope Labs on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.

[Tom Yamas]

Wherever you get your podcast.

[Tom Brokaw]

Alexandria Ocasio Cortez has now endorsed Azorhan Mamdani, number one on her ranked choice ballot. This comes after last night's put up F4. This comes after last night's New York City mayoral debate. This and endorsement by Bernie Sanders have been much watched. There have been a lot of pressure on AOC to get off the sidelines and get in and endorse Thorhan as he has been surging and closing to within about eight points of Andrew Cuomo in the latest race last night. There probably were not an enormous number of people watching this debate, so we can overstate its impact, but boy, was it fascinating. And it is the entire conversation Becomes just much more interesting when you have a social Democratic voice in there, debating, pushes everybody else to be like, oh, yeah, I'm going to do this good thing. I'm going to do this good thing. I'll do this good thing. Amazing thing as well. So let's start with Cuomo getting piled on. Should we do that first?

[Lester Holt]

Yeah, let's go for it.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah. Because Cuomo as the front runner is just naturally gonna get piled on.

[Lester Holt]

Well, and there's plenty of ammunition to work with, too.

[Tom Brokaw]

Right. And also, he's Cuomo, so you're gonna pile on him anyway. So, you know, he's facing an investigation by Trump's doj, which on the one hand is a boon because it rallies Democrats in New York kind of behind him. Because if you're against Trump, then you're objectively a good thing according to a lot of Democratic voters. On the other hand, he did lie to Congress and he did cover up a bunch of deaths. So this was a needle to thread for his opponents. Let's roll F1 here.

[Lester Holt]

The question is whether or not it's political and whether or not your congressional testimony was truthful. Were you, now that you've had time to reflect, involved in producing that report that undercounted those nursing home deaths? Oh, there was no doubt that my administration produced the report, and it did not undercount the deaths. Okay, but you're still saying you were not involved in producing it.

[Tom Yamas]

It's very clear.

[Lester Holt]

That's the Trump line, the MAGA line. Right. Because this was during his. The Trump reelection. Okay. The New York reports always counted the.

[Tom Yamas]

Number of deaths where they occurred in.

[Lester Holt]

A nursing home or in a hospital. Okay. Now that all the dust is literally. Okay. We have to move on, though.

[Tom Brokaw]

We have to give other people a chance.

[Tom Yamas]

We'll have.

[Lester Holt]

We'll all have a lot more time on other subjects.

[Tom Brokaw]

All right, hold on, candidates.

[Tom Yamas]

Did you laugh?

[Tom Brokaw]

You're all talking. All right. Will you acknowledge the deaths?

[Lester Holt]

Okay. I mean, it's a.

[Tom Yamas]

No.

[Lester Holt]

It's a very black and white.

[Tom Yamas]

Okay.

[Lester Holt]

Did you apply to Congress, or will you acknowledge the death? Fifteen people died, and he still won't answer your question.

[Tom Brokaw]

All right, here.

[Lester Holt]

Here's the chance to answer the question as Melissa presented it. Yes, Mr. Cuomo. No, I told Congress the truth. No, we did not undercount any deaths. When they are all counted, we're number 38 out of 50, which I think shows that compared to what other states went through, we had it first and worst, and that only 12 states had.

[Tom Yamas]

A lower Rate of death.

[Lester Holt]

We should really be thanking the women and men who worked in those homes and didn't extrude their home. Okay, very quick yes or no follow.

[Tom Yamas]

Up, if I may. Just the question is, were you involved.

[Lester Holt]

In the producing of that report?

[Tom Yamas]

It's just a yes or no question.

[Lester Holt]

I was very aware of the report. I spoke to it at press conferences.

[Tom Brokaw]

No. Before it was released. The question is about the production of.

[Lester Holt]

The report, the creation. We're going to move on. We're not getting an answer. We're not getting by the report. It was as to whether or not you were.

[Tom Brokaw]

So to refresh people's memory, Cuomo had a policy where he forced nursing homes to take COVID positive patients. That led to outbreaks in nursing homes that led to people dying. When New York State produced a report on that, the report systematically undercounted the deaths by saying, well, they didn't actually die in the nursing home because they got taken out and died either in the ambulance or in the hospital an hour later or whatever. And then the question was, well, were you involved in the fudging of this report? He told Congress, no. And then we get an email that says, attached are the governor's edits to this report. And one of his staffers said, yeah, this is Cuomo's handwriting in the margins of the report. The criminal question might turn on whether or not his denial to Congress was, you know, ironclad or whether he was saying, I don't. As far as I remember, I don't. I was not involved in that report. And so there's a question like that you're lying. You do remember. But then how do you prove that somebody has a memory like, it's clearly he lied.

[Lester Holt]

Right.

[Tom Yamas]

So, I mean, which is like, you.

[Lester Holt]

Can very much tell in the way he's dancing around and still doesn't have a good answer for this, like, were.

[Tom Brokaw]

You involved in the report? I was aware of the report.

[Lester Holt]

There's no question my team was involved in the report. That's not the question. That is not what we asked.

[Tom Brokaw]

Let me be very clear and say nothing. Clear.

[Lester Holt]

Right. And Zoran's line on this when he was asked about it, because like you said, it is a bit of a needle to thread for his opponents, who all wanna position themselves being vehemently anti Trump, especially after Eric Adams, collusion with the Trump regime, et cetera. He was like, listen, he did lie to Congress. That being said, I totally Trump pursuing him has everything to do with retribution, nothing to do with justice. But, yeah, he did commit a crime here. He did lie. He did ultimately lie to Congress. I thought overall, Cuomo, you know, he seemed like. He seemed kind of rusty and complacent. You see this sometimes with politicians who've been in for a long time, and, you know, they sort of take things for granted and maybe don't take their opponents as seriously as they should. Like, he clearly has a level of contempt and derision towards Zoran in particular. And so he seemed kind of rusty and off his game in this debate. And I think that's evidenced by that exchange where the question that he gets asked is obviously going to be asked of him, and he still doesn't have really prepared a great response. We also had Cuomo is running this very traditional playbook of I have the experience and Zoran has. He says that he's been in government for 27 days, and he doesn't know what he's doing, which is this sort of throwback argument play to expertise. Although maybe in a mayoral race, it has more salience. I'm not sure. But I thought Zorin had a really good way of flipping this on Cuomo in this debate. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that. The difference between myself and Andrew Cuomo is that my campaign is not funded by the very billionaires who put Donald.

[Tom Yamas]

Trump in D.C. i don't have to pick up the phone from Bill Ackman or Ken Langone.

[Lester Holt]

I have to pick up the phone for the more than 20,000 New Yorkers who contributed an average donation of about $80 to break fundraising records and put.

[Tom Yamas]

Our campaign in second place.

[Tom Brokaw]

Okay, Mr. Bondani, thank you.

[Lester Holt]

Mr. Cuomo, you want to respond to that? Yeah, please. You know, Mr. Mondami is very good.

[Tom Yamas]

On Twitter and with videos, but he.

[Lester Holt]

Actually produces nothing for him to accuse me of lying. He also called President Obama a liar and said President Obama was evil. So take everything with a grain of salt.

[Tom Yamas]

Donald Trump would go through Mr. Mondame like a hot knife through butter.

[Lester Holt]

He's been in government 27 minutes. He passed three bills. That's all he's done. He has no experience with Washington, no experience in New York City. He would be Trump's delight.

[Tom Brokaw]

All right, brief response, Mr. Mohamdani, then.

[Lester Holt]

We have to move on.

[Tom Yamas]

Look, it's true that I don't have.

[Lester Holt]

Experience with corrupt Trump billionaires who are funding my campaign. I don't have experience with party politics and insider consultants or I do have experience, however, with winning $450 million in debt relief for thousands of working class taxi drivers and actually delivering the working class people like Michelle. Thank you, Mr. Monda. So I thought he kind of, I thought he kind of crushed him in that exchange.

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, I mean, it's going to be, I guess it's a question partly of like, do you want Andrew Cuomo back? Do you want him in your face for the next four or eight years as mayor? And a lot, you know, is it a thing where, okay, a lot of people don't like Cuomo, but he is what you get? I don't know. It's hard to say. He's such a known quantity. And, you know, his father, like his camp, has been trying to call mom Donnie a Nepo baby, but he's a known quantity because his own father was governor, his wife was Kennedy. It's like, come on, like, who's the nep, by the way?

[Lester Holt]

He is no Mario Cuomo. By the way. He is no Mario Cuomo. Is no Mario Cuomo. Yeah. Also the Trump's delight part is just a funny way of phrasing that. And look, Cuomo is running a playbook that I think prior to this moment would have worked very easily in New York City. Not only with regard to just like, he's got the name, people know who he is. You know, there is a tendency in New York City politics to reach for someone who is sort of like the safe establishment candidates. How Eric Adams ends up winning de Blasio is a little bit of a break from that, but he's not that far out of like the, you know, the mold in the mainstream, whatever. And so this playbook that he's running, I think in any other year would be guaranteed to win him like a 30 point victory. But first of all, he went through his own scandals and is sort of disgraced in trying to recover his reputation at this point. Second of all, there is a real disgust among Democrats with the establishment Democratic Party that helped to usher in Trump, that did capitulate to Trump in many ways, Eric Adams, again, being emblematic of that. And so it's more of a question mark now over whether or not this traditional playbook, which in any other year likely would have worked, is going to work for him this time. And that is also on display in the way that they are aggressively attacking Zoran over his position on Israel. Obviously, there's a significant Jewish population in New York City and they're really important electorally. And there are various relatively organized voting blocs that Cuomo in particular, but many other candidates have been trying to appeal to. So there was this extraordinary moment at the end where they're doing their, quote, unquote, lightning round, and they ask all the candidates, what is the first country you're going to visit once if you get elected mayor of New York City? And so you have them all going down the list. And Soron gives this answer of, I'm not going to visit another country. I'm going to be here in New York working for the people. And unlike any other candidate, they decide to. The moderators decide to jump in to say, okay, yeah, but would you visit Israel? And then go on this, you know, to dig into like. And do you support Israel's right, not only right to exist, but right to exist specifically as a Jewish state? Let's go ahead and take a listen to how that all went down. Given the hostility and the antisemitism that has been shown in New York, I would go to Israel. Mr. Tilson, where would you go?

[Tom Brokaw]

Yeah, I'd make my fourth trip to Israel, followed by my fifth trip to Ukraine. Two of our greatest allies fighting on the front lines of the global war on terror.

[Lester Holt]

Mr. Mamdani? I would stay in New York City.

[Tom Brokaw]

My plans are to address New yorkers.

[Lester Holt]

Across the five boroughs and focus on that. Mr. Mamdani, can I just jump in?

[Tom Brokaw]

Would you visit Israel as mayor?

[Lester Holt]

I will be doing. As the mayor, I'll be standing up for Jewish New Yorkers, and I'll be meeting them wherever they are across the five boroughs, whether that's in their synagogues and temples or at their homes or at the subway platform. Because ultimately, we need to focus on delivering on their concerns.

[Tom Brokaw]

And just yes or no, do you believe in a Jewish state of Israel?

[Lester Holt]

I believe Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, as a state with equal rights. He won't say it has a right to exist as a Jewish state.

[Tom Brokaw]

Be very.

[Lester Holt]

And his answer was no, he won't visit Israel. I said that before. That's what he was trying to say.

[Tom Yamas]

No, no, no.

[Lester Holt]

Unlike you, I answered. Unlike you, I answered directly.

[Tom Yamas]

I want to be very clear.

[Lester Holt]

I believe every state should be a state of equal rights. Ryan, your thoughts?

[Tom Brokaw]

First of all, the guy that wants to go to Israel and Ukraine, that's when you and I like how they were competing.

[Lester Holt]

He's a big ed, reformer, charter school guy, billionaire charter school guy, competing for.

[Tom Brokaw]

Who could have bigger yellow ribbons. Like, I'm Cuomo.

[Lester Holt]

There's a lot of memes going on about that.

[Tom Brokaw]

He must have been so angry when he came out and saw somebody had a bigger yellow ribbon. Than him.

[Lester Holt]

Outrageous. Some staffer got fired over that.

[Tom Brokaw]

But what is. What's this guy going to Israel and Ukraine like? I had to, like, check. This is a New York City mayoral election, right? What is he gonna do in Ukraine? There are a lot of Ukrainians and Russians in New York City.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah, well, Zoran's answer is, yeah, I will meet with voters here. Yeah, that's what I will do. And then the moderators need to jump in.

[Tom Brokaw]

Wait a minute. Are you saying you won't go to Israel?

[Lester Holt]

Well, you go to Israel. Can you imagine them going through a checklist of every other foreign. Well, what about. What about Russia?

[Tom Brokaw]

You're not gonna go to Chad.

[Lester Holt]

What about. Are you going to Mexico? I mean, when's your trip to Brazil? I mean, it's just only for the country. And then the other piece here is Zoran says, I think Israel has a right to exist, but what about as a Jewish state? And he refuses to back an explicitly ethno nationalist state and says, I think they should have equal rights. And again, I think this playbook, it may well still be effective, Right? I'm not saying it won't be, but there is a completely, frankly, racist and caricature ish view of what Jewish voters actually think about Israel and Palestine. And many Jewish voters, by the way, a majority voted for Democrats. A majority are opposed to us continuing to endlessly fund this horrific genocide. Many have been involved in the protests against our government policy vis a vis Israel. And so the tried and true playbook of saying he's not pro Israel enough, maybe it will work. Maybe it's possible. I'm not saying it doesn't have any power, but I do think it represents a completely outdated mode of politics that does not reckon with the fact that Zorin is getting out there that, hey, I'll meet Jewish voters here, wherever they are, because guess what? They are complete human beings who have interests separate and apart from whether or not I decide to make a trip to Israel and whatever statements I make about this one foreign country.

[Tom Brokaw]

And there was a poll a couple weeks ago, specifically of Jewish voters in New York that found that Cuomo was only leading him by 11 points among Jewish voters.

[Lester Holt]

Wow.

[Tom Brokaw]

And that was happening at the time when overall, Cuomo was leading him by something like 16 points.

[Lester Holt]

Well, there was that poll recently that found AOC beating Schumer by a significant margin among Jewish voters. So this caricature ish view of what you need to say to appeal to this, I mean, it really is a racist view of what you need to say to appeal to this one demographic is completely, you know, it is completely outdated and anachronistic.

[Tom Brokaw]

And one of those propagandists, Ey, Al. I forget his last name. Who always. In my Twitter feed, when he saw that poll showing that 20% of Jewish voters in New York were supporting Mamdani and 31% supporting Cuomo, he said not a single one of them is actually Jewish, just like that's anti Semitic. What do you mean they're not Jewish? Like, they're only Jewish if they vote in a New York City mayoral election for the candidate that you believe they should vote for.

[Lester Holt]

Right. That thinking is very common, though, I feel, especially on the right, this thinking of, like, well, some of these.

[Tom Brokaw]

Or Joe Biden, you're not black, you don't support Biden, you're not black, then you're not black.

[Lester Holt]

But there is this view of like, oh, well, the people who are culturally Jewish or who are more like secular Jewish or reformed Jewish, they don't really count. That doesn't really count. The only ones that count are the ones that I say count or that uphold that lockstep Zionist, pro Israel view.

[Tom Brokaw]

But if you go too far, right, and it's an anti Zionist, Orthodox, do they count?

[Lester Holt]

No, they don't count either. They don't count either. So, yeah, I mean, it was really, I think, a fascinating debate all around. Like you said, let's have Lorsaus about how many people are going to watch it, although you will see the Twitter clips floating around. But I think the dynamics were good for Zaun in that he handled himself very well, Cuomo handled himself badly. And Cuomo was taking fire from absolutely everybody on the stage, which is also a difficult position to do and that he did not handle all that well. So AOC is in now. Do you think that moves the needle? Do you think she got it at the right time? I know people are saying she should have come out earlier and really been there on the ground trying to build name recognition for him. And now basically he's sort of of coalesced all the AOC voters. So it may not make that much of a difference.

[Tom Brokaw]

Earlier is probably better. The best argument for this one is that it maximizes public attention to the endorsement if she does it right away. We had him on the program very early in the race, and it's like.

[Lester Holt]

People didn't really care.

[Tom Brokaw]

The people didn't really care.

[Lester Holt]

It's like, who's this guy, right?

[Tom Brokaw]

I'm like, no, this guy's really cool.

[Lester Holt]

Trust me, you're see him, it's going to be interesting.

[Tom Brokaw]

And so if she did it, then it's like, meh, whatever. And then he would have been known as the AOC endorsed candidate, but he's already known as the DSA candidate. So there's a ton of media attention now around the fact that she just endorsed him. And he did very well in that debate and Cuomo did poorly. So it's combining to create some energy. It may be a case, I don't know, but it may be a case where waiting ended up on net being better than going early because that's almost never better. Now, if she would start early and do a unified thing like we're gonna raise enormous amounts of money from you for you from my email list and I'm gonna rally with you everywhere, that's better. But that was probably never in the cards, although, which is an interesting question in its own right why that wouldn't have been in the cards.

[Lester Holt]

She's very cautious. I mean, I also think this is kind of an outdated mode of thinking of being so cautious of like who you give your endorsement to and is it going to.

[Tom Brokaw]

Trump endorses any kook right away.

[Lester Holt]

Exactly right. And if they don't win, then he just someone else, you know, it's like, oh, it was their fault or would.

[Tom Brokaw]

Have been worse if I didn't endorse.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah. So I do think that that is also kind of an outdated playbook. And then the other question is whether Bernie is going to ultimately get involved here as well. Maybe it's possible he was sort of waiting for AOC to jump in since she is actually New York City and I don't know. So we'll see how all of those things play out. But, you know, the polls have been tightening. He has definitely outperformed what anyone's, I think, including his own team, potentially expectations of where this race would ultimately be. And in the final stretch here, as people who are lower information voters who weren't tuned in before start to tune in, what are the sort of messages that they're hearing and what is appealing to them at this point in time? It's, I think, important from a national Democratic Party conversation because there is this big question about where the Democratic base is in how things are shifting within the coalition, what types of candidates they're looking for, what sorts of things may be on the table that previously weren't on the table. And this could be a kind of canary in the coal mine for where things are heading nationally as well. So that's why it's interesting. Not to mention it's a giant city and important and all those things too.

[Tom Brokaw]

Cuomo is still the odds on favorite. The ballots go out, I think June 14th. The actual election is June 26th. June 24th. 24th through 26th. Don't want to give any misinformation. Just Google that yourself. But yeah, we'll see. And anyway, don't forget that for the rest of this month, one month free if you go to breakingpoints.com.

[Lester Holt]

You'Re right. 24th.

[Tom Brokaw]

The 24th BP free is the promo code. This gets you into the $10 a month club, which, like I was saying yesterday, it's breaking points on layaway.

[Lester Holt]

That's right. There you go.

[Tom Brokaw]

You won't even notice it. You will notice it every time. You're like, ugh, 10 more dollars. That's why I prefer to do the annual, actually.

[Lester Holt]

Just get it done. And then it's not just like, constantly.

[Tom Brokaw]

Reminding me that I'm losing money. And we give most of this away for free, so we understand that you don't have a lot of incentive to support it, but we appreciate that you do. This is an expensive endeavor to put together.

[Lester Holt]

Yes, indeed. Speaking of the expansion of the show and your support, we'll be here for the Friday show tomorrow. So everybody have a great day and we will see you then. Over the years of making my true crime podcast Hell and Gone, I've learned no town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've heard from hundreds of people across the country with an unsolved murder in their community. I was calling about the murder of my husband.

[Tom Yamas]

The murder is still out there.

[Lester Holt]

Each week I investigate a new case. If there is a case we should Hear about, call 678-744-6145. Listen to Helen Gone Murderline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops.

[Tom Brokaw]

They get asked all the time, have.

[Lester Holt]

You ever had to shoot your gun?

[Tom Brokaw]

Sometimes the answer is yes.

[Lester Holt]

But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no.

[Tom Brokaw]

This is Absolute Season one, Taser Incorporated.

[Lester Holt]

I get right back there and it's bad.

[Tom Brokaw]

Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or.

[Lester Holt]

Wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English.

[Tom Yamas]

I'm Greg Lodd. And this is season two of the.

[Lester Holt]

War on Drugs podcast, sir.

[Tom Yamas]

Last year, a lot of the problems.

[Tom Brokaw]

Of the drug war.

[Lester Holt]

This year, a lot of the biggest.

[Tom Yamas]

Name in music and sports.

[Lester Holt]

This is kind of star studded a little bit, man.

[Tom Yamas]

We met them at their homes.

[Tom Brokaw]

We met them at their recording studios.

[Tom Yamas]

Stories matter and it brings a face to it.

[Lester Holt]

It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War.

[Tom Yamas]

On Drugs Podcast, Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Lester Holt]

This is an iheart pod.