7/14/25: Epstein Brother Says Trump May Have Killed Him, Alligator Alcatraz Debate, FEMA Gutted Amid Floods

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Episode: July 14, 2025
Title: Epstein Brother Says Trump May Have Killed Him, Alligator Alcatraz Debate, FEMA Gutted Amid Floods
Host: Krystal Ball and Sagar Enjeti
Published by: iHeartPodcasts

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1. Epstein and Trump: Exploring Dark Connections

The episode opens with a deep dive into the murky connections between former President Donald Trump and the late Jeffrey Epstein. The conversation is sparked by an interview with Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, who raises alarming allegations about Trump's possible involvement in his brother's death.

Notable Quote:
At 03:33, Mark Epstein states, "I wouldn't be surprised if Donald Trump was behind your brother's death."

Krystal Ball provides context, highlighting Mark Epstein's long-standing relationship with journalist Tucker Carlson, which centers around investigating Epstein's death and uncovering intelligence connections. Krystal remarks, "This isn't a conspiracy theory. It's about following the evidence."

The hosts discuss various figures connected to Epstein, including Bill Barr, Alex Acosta, and Pam Bondi, suggesting a network of individuals within Trump's orbit who may be implicated in covering up Epstein's activities. Michael Wolff's testimony is referenced, where he claims, "Donald Trump has gotten away with literally everything," emphasizing Trump's dismissive attitude towards Epstein.

Notable Quote:
At 08:57, Michael Wolff asserts, "Donald Trump has gotten away with literally everything."

Krystal and Sagar further explore the financial entanglements and the possible motivations behind Epstein's connections, urging listeners to scrutinize the broader implications of these relationships.

2. Immigration Policies: Public Sentiment and Policy Backlash

Shifting focus, Krystal and Sagar delve into the evolving landscape of immigration in the United States. They cite recent Gallup polling indicating a significant shift in public opinion:

• 79% of respondents now view immigration as a positive force for the country.
• There has been a 17% decline in those supporting the increase of Border Patrol agents.
• A plurality now prefers maintaining the current level of immigration rather than decreasing it.

Notable Quote:
At 18:38, Sagar summarizes, "People are seeing the reality of the Trump administration's immigration policy. They're seeing these raids... it's causing a significant backlash."

The discussion highlights the unpopularity of harsh immigration enforcement measures under the Trump administration, such as the controversial detention facility dubbed "Alligator Alcatraz." Maxwell Frost's testimony underscores the dire conditions within these facilities:

Notable Quote:
At 34:06, Maxwell Frost describes, "I saw 32 people per cage... People were yelling, 'Help me, help me.'"

Krystal emphasizes the disparity between the administration's portrayal of deportations targeting only serious criminals and the reality of detaining individuals with minor infractions or even U.S. citizens. This disconnect has fueled public dissatisfaction and eroded Trump’s stronghold on the immigration issue.

3. FEMA and Disaster Response: Consequences of Policy Cuts

The episode transitions to a critical analysis of FEMA's performance amid recent devastating floods in Texas. Krystal and Sagar attribute FEMA's inadequate response to significant budget cuts implemented under the Trump administration, specifically targeting the National Weather Service and FEMA's operational capabilities.

Notable Quote:
At 51:19, Kristi Noem, head of FEMA, denies causing delays: "They were deployed immediately, as soon as they were requested."

Despite Noem’s assurances, independent reports from the New York Times reveal that FEMA failed to handle thousands of calls from flood survivors due to lapses in call center contracts and a reduction in on-the-ground personnel. Krystal criticizes the administration's lack of preparedness, stating, "It's coming. You don't want to do it."

Sagar highlights the appointment of David Richardson, a figure with questionable qualifications, as FEMA's leader, further exacerbating the agency's inefficiency. The hosts argue that these failures are a direct result of Trump's "slash and burn" approach to government agencies, leaving the U.S. vulnerable to natural disasters.

Notable Quote:
At 55:36, Sagar remarks, "They just thought that nothing was ever going to matter."

4. The Interconnected Impact of Policies

Throughout the episode, Krystal and Sagar draw connections between the administration's policies on immigration, disaster preparedness, and overall governance. They argue that the neglect of essential government functions has not only led to immediate crises but also long-term erosion of public trust and institutional competence.

Krystal warns about the potential for future disasters to further highlight the administration's shortcomings, stating, "It's only one disaster away from a catastrophic news cycle for the administration."

Conclusion

In this comprehensive episode, Krystal Ball and Sagar Enjeti meticulously dissect the tangled web of political maneuvers surrounding Jeffrey Epstein's death, the contentious immigration policies under Donald Trump, and the faltering disaster response mechanisms of FEMA. Through insightful analysis and compelling quotes, the hosts shed light on the systemic issues plaguing the current administration, urging listeners to critically evaluate the narratives presented by those in power.

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Notable Moments Recap:

• 02:08: Introduction to Epstein-Trump connections.
• 03:33: Mark Epstein's allegations against Trump.
• 08:57: Michael Wolff's remarks on Trump's immunity.
• 18:38: Gallup poll results on immigration sentiment.
• 34:06: Maxwell Frost's testimony on Alligator Alcatraz conditions.
• 51:19: Kristi Noem's defense of FEMA's response.
• 55:36: Critique of FEMA leadership under David Richardson.

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This summary encapsulates the pivotal discussions and insights from the July 14, 2025, episode of "Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar," providing a coherent overview for those who haven't listened to the full episode.

Transcript

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Krystal Ball]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So let's talk a little bit more about the direct Trump and Epstein connections. Interesting moment on Don Lemon's podcast. He had on Jeffrey Epstein's brother Mark and asked him directly, hey, do you think that Trump during his first administration actually had your brother killed? Let's take a listen to that.

[Mark Epstein]

When you saw that interview with Them, I think there was a couple of interviews. The one thing with Maria Bartiromo where they sat down and, I mean, they were glum and they're saying there's nothing there. I would be honest with you. There's nothing there. After years and years of pushing and also calling this somehow a. A Democrat, according to them, conspiracy theory, and that somehow the Democrats were involved in your brother's death.

[Jeffrey Epstein's Brother]

I don't think the Democrats look. Well, I look at it this way. Bill Barr, when he came out that ridiculous statement, he worked for. He was the Attorney general, you know, who did he. Look, if he was. If Jeffrey was murdered, which I believe he was, somebody did it. So the people who were coming out with these ridiculous statements, I think are covering up for somebody, right? So who are they covering up for? You know, Bill Bar worked for. For the President of the United States. Keshe Patel works for the President United States. Pam Bondi works for the President of the United States. Maybe someone should ask him what he knows.

[Mark Epstein]

Who do you think they're covering up for?

[Jeffrey Epstein's Brother]

Who do they all work for?

[Mark Epstein]

They all work for Donald Trump.

[Jeffrey Epstein's Brother]

Well, like I said in another interview, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Mark Epstein]

You wouldn't be surprised if Donald Trump was behind your brother's death? Are you saying that Donald Trump had your brother murdered, you believe.

[Jeffrey Epstein's Brother]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying if that's what it was, I wouldn't be surprised. We know that Jeffrey had dirt on Donald Trump. We know that that's a fact because he said in 2016 with the election that if he said what he knew, they'd have to cancel the election. He didn't tell me what he knew, but that's what he said. And I've been public about that before. That shouldn't come as a shock.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Dirt.

[Mark Epstein]

Like what dirt?

[Jeffrey Epstein's Brother]

Steve Bannon said that the only person he feared for Donald Trump's sake was Jeffrey Epstein.

[Krystal Ball]

Why?

[Jeffrey Epstein's Brother]

What do you think Jeffrey was gonna beat him up? No, because of what Jeffrey knew.

[Mark Epstein]

And what did Jeffrey know?

[Jeffrey Epstein's Brother]

Well, I don't know. He didn't tell me what he knew. But he said if he said what he knew, they'd have to cancel the election.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So. Very interesting comments there, Zagar. What do you mean by that?

[Krystal Ball]

Well, Mark is an interesting figure. So, Mark, actually, some background, if people wanna listen to my interview with Tucker, Tucker in 2019 was like, yeah, maybe he killed himself. We'll see, whatever. But he said that Mark Epstein called him and he was like, I'm telling you, 100% he did not kill himself. Based on everything that I know about this. And it began actually a years long relationship between Mark and Tucker basically about this issue of whether he killed himself or not, which was an exploration about the intelligence connections, et cetera. So Mark is not a partisan Democratic figure. I just want people to lay that out and know it at the beginning. I mean, in a way he's like advocating for his dead brother even though he was a heinous individual. But whatever the point is, is that it's an entree point to which you're have to ask the question why? Who is covering this stuff up and for what purpose? And I'll be honest, for me, I always thought the Trump thing was tenuous. And Tucker kind of put it to me, he's like, well wouldn't the Biden administration release it? And I was like, that's like a compelling point. And then the second part is like, it's just not really who Trump is and for all of his sexual proclivities. And basically you can read it in all for yourself from Stormy Daniels. Seems like pretty standard, like horny old man behavior. But then this, you know, the way this is now being handled, combined with the totality of the reaction previously, that really makes me start to be like, man, what's going on here? And I don't know, is it Trump himself? Is it about his own enabling him? Let's be honest, he hung out with him. He was a mar a lago friend. There's pictures of them all being together. So at this point I almost have no choice but to ask be like, look, maybe there really is something there. And I don't think that's a crazy thing to say. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's like in the same way that we look past, let's look at the evidence about the way he said to Ghislaine, I wish her well. Right about the way that that case was handled, in which they basically localized the entire prosecution to just Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein to make sure it didn't implicate anybody else. He did die under his watch. All of these people do work for Donald Trump. Obviously the acts of faith asked to be proclaimed here from Cash, Patel, Bondi and others come from Trump himself, I would assume. And then there's his public record now in the camera. It's sketchy. I don't know another way to say it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And you have this choice of numerous Epstein linked figures for his first and second administration. Whether it's Bill Barr, whose dad gives Epstein his first job at a private school.

[Krystal Ball]

Even though his very first job.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Right, yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Who has never had a college degree at Dalton School. Bill Barr's father hires him, where he gets introduced to whom? To Bear Stearns. Where he then goes like, man, you're sending me down the rabbit hole. I know this is important stuff to know.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I don't know if people.

[Krystal Ball]

It was to teach math.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Dalton, highly elite.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's like, you know, the pinnacle of, like, elite private schools. So he gets plucked with no college degree to go teach there, then parlays that into somehow becoming this financier managing billions of dollars. Oh, who? Your clients? We don't know. Don't know. Outside of Les Wexner, that's the only one we really know.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But we're told this is, you know, so lucrative and he's so extraordinary at it that he becomes so wealthy that he has actually sort of gifted to him, actually, from Les Wexner, the largest private residence in Manhattan. I don't know if you guys are familiar with Manhattan, but there's a lot of wealthy people there.

[Krystal Ball]

It's crazy.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yes. On the Upper east side. Absolutely. Didn't you tell me he's neighbors with Howard Lutnick?

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, he was also Howard Lutnick, just so people know. By the way, Howard recently purchased a $1,200 bottle of tequila and bragged about it online, if you're wondering. In case you're wondering.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. So, I mean, you have that. You've got Alex Acosta, who is the person who gave Epstein that sweetheart deal which really buried all of this evidence. I mean, that was critical. And Alan Dershowitz was his lawyer in all of that and has continued to receive legal fees from Jeffrey Epstein over time. Here you've got Pam Bondi, who also was Florida, who also. There's linkages there as well. And so. And then you consider Trump and his longtime relationship and the things that we know about that, and then there he is, acting guilty as fucking covering the thing up. Yeah, you have to ask some questions about that. Michael Wolf, journalist who did hours of interviews actually, with Jeffrey Epstein, talked about how a bunch of these linkages were just basically hiding in plain sight with regard to Donald Trump. Let's take a listen to a little bit of that.

[Michael Wolff]

Donald Trump has gotten away with literally everything, and it turns out to be one of his greatest gifts. And somehow, again, hiding in plain sight, this long relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And Trump has just waved it away, swept it under the rug, ignored it, and. And gotten away with it once when I was. This was in Mar a Lago. I went to sit. Have a. Sit down with him and in. His aides just asked me a rough outline of what I wanted to talk about. And I had a lot of subjects, but I said. I also said, Epstein. And they said, if you ask about that, he'll just stop the interview and you won't get anything so interesting there.

[Sagar Enjeti]

He says, Epstein, other things. Fine. Epstein, off limits. And you know how that interview shaping works in advance. They say, okay, well, yeah, you can ask if you want, but that's just gonna be the end of it.

[Krystal Ball]

Do you know what the key is to do that? Is to ask it at the end.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The very last question, if anybody wants to know.

[Krystal Ball]

Exactly. Strategy. That's what I did before I went into the Oval ones. Sarah Sanders was like, hey, just don't ask about this whole E. Jean Carroll thing. And we were like, for sure. And then, of course, when we were done, we were like, hey, by the way, what do you think about this whole. And of course, we got this iconic answer, which she ended up using in her own defamation lawsuit, citing it multiple times, that answer. So, yes, that's the strategy about what you're supposed to do.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And Wolf has other things that he said as well, that Epstein told him that they were besties for over a decade, and certainly they were closely linked for quite a while in the early 90s and in the 90s in general. He also has talked about photos with girls of uncertain age and stain on Trump's pants and girls pointing and laughing at him. That's what his claim is in terms of things that exist out there. So another interesting data point here. Put C3 up on the screen. Apparently, Trump held some talks on a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell, which fits with the response when he got asked about her when she was on trial. Hey, I wish her well. And fits with a very persistent pattern of getting quite squirrely when asked about the Epstein files and the release of the Epstein files. Every time he got asked about it would be like, yeah, well, maybe. No, actually, you gotta worry about people's privacy there. So for people who, I guess wanted to hear that there would be a release, they just listened to the figures around Trump or they listened to that first. Like, yeah, sure, before the. Well, I don't know. I'm not so sure. The other ones, yes, but not so much on Epstein. Let's put this next one up on the screen here. This is just another indication of the things that were said about this case before we got the Memo that was just like, case closed, nothing to see here. Prince Andrew, by the way, and everybody else, you're all let off the hook. Don't worry about it. You're good to go. Go. Completely innocent FBI employees had received a directive to begin working uninterrupted on the Epstein records. Hundreds. Under pressure from Patel, hundreds of FBI employees, including special agents from the D.C. new York field office, have been working furiously to meet Pam Bondi's demands. They've been holed up in offices at the Bureau's sprawling central records complex in Winchester, VA. Houses 2 billion pages of physical FBI records. An older building a few miles away. They've been working alongside analysts tasked with processing FOIA requests at the department. So whatever happened with those hundreds of FBI employees, like, what were they doing there? What records were they looking at? What are we talking about here? For it all to be just case closed with a single page memo that supposedly there is nothing going on and there's nothing to learn, and we have definitively decided that he definitely killed himself.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, that's right. I mean, look, I think it's all just totally crazy. And you flagged this to me, this piece by Chris hedges. Let's put C5, please, up on the screen. I mean, really what Chris gets into is not only the list of all of the figures, including Trump himself, that are like all tied up within this, but listen, I mean, when looking back, also at the fact, at this point, we have to acknowledge we have Epstein, who dies under Trump. We have all of these allegations and weird and sketchy things that happen in terms of Trump's answer that specifically happen here around the Epstein scandal. He cites a lawsuit which I actually was not aware about, about these like, Epsteinian orgies and weird things which, you know, allegedly implicate Trump. I had no idea about this lawsuit.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I didn't know about this either. Yeah, this was what surprised me. So let me just read this section to get the details, you know, very specifically correct here. The Miami Herald investigator reporter Julie K. Brown, whose dogged reporting was largely responsible for reopening the federal investigation into Epstein and Maxwell. Documents in her book Perversion of Justice, the Jeffrey Epstein story. As Brown writes, In 2016, an anonymous woman using the pseudonym Kate Johnson filed a civil complaint in a federal court in California alleging she was raped by Trump and Epstein when she was 13 over a four month period from June to September 94. I loudly pleaded with Trump to stop, she said in the lawsuit about being raped. Trump responded to my pleas by violently striking me in the face with his open hand and screaming he could do whatever he want. Now, basically that lawsuit goes away. Is it because there's no there there or is it possible? Very possible, by the way?

[Krystal Ball]

Maybe, yeah, it's possible. I just not aware of this.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You know, what Hedges alleges here is more likely is that Trump was able to quash the lawsuit by buying her silence, is what he says. And she has since disappeared. So again, maybe it went away because there was no there there, or maybe he was able to use his wealth to make it go away. But this all just speaks to the fact that these entanglements, I mean this was reported long ago and these entanglements, this was all out. This is not conspiracy, this is a thing that happened. And we have the pictures together, we have the. You know, the flight logs actually came out during Ghislaine Maxwell's trial. We know we covered at the time the way that the federal government case that was pursued against Ghislaine Maxwell as well, they called it like a thin case or something like that.

[Krystal Ball]

It was meant to be very tame.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It was meant to be very narrow. So it just focused on like the things that they felt really confident they could prove, but meant that anyone else who may be implicated, there was not gonna be discovery around that there was not gonna be any sort of like opening the books of which other powerful people were ultimately involved there. And then you also get the news, hey, Trump was actually thinking about pardoning her cuz he was kind of worried about what she might say about him. So I think there are real justified, non conspiratorial reasons to look at this whole chain of events and have some real questions about how exactly Trump was implicated, involved here. Was he in the Epstein files? I mean, there's no dou. We know that he's in the flight log. So I guess it depends on your definition of the Epstein files, but the extent or the nature that I think is an open question, but very reasonable one to ask.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, and that's just my last point on the Epstein files. And I know we've talked a lot about it and I do understand maybe fatigue and others, but this is important. There is no such thing as a ledger. That's just like client supports Israel now because we blackmail it. That's not how this stuff works. What works is the totality of documentation. Flight logs, IRS records, state filings, LLCs pass through entities through which the money flowed in and to where it flowed out. Now, all the public evidence that we have right now from the nonprofit and apparatus at Deutsche bank and others shows a lot of money coming in from the world's billionaires for purposes completely unknown to us. Going out to Eastern European sex trafficking rings, paying off a whole bunch of other people and being used for purposes that continue to remain unknown. Very likely for intelligence purposes that implicate multiple billionaires, very famous people, prime ministers of Israel, all sorts. Pritzker, the Pritzker family, the governor right now in Illinois, all of these people are implicated and they're using it specifically to fund a variety of different things. But that is not an Epstein files. That's financial records that exist right now. The irs, if anybody could pull our documentation right now and look at everything that we filed ever as a business to show exactly the money coming in, the money going out. The government has that. But people narrowly focus and they make bombastic claims about the Black book or whatever. It's like that's not, I mean, yes, I want that release too, but my point is that there's an entire vast apparatus that he was like sitting as the top of, but there's a whole lot of stuff other there. So let's also not get over our skis and then be satisfied. If they released the Black Book, it's like, no, it goes so much deeper than that. The question is why did Leon Black, a man worth $9 billion, pay $170 million for public tax advice from Jeffrey Epstein? That's the question I want to know. And that's a much bigger question than any so called client list. Where did that money go? For what reason? You know, and that's when you really start to, you know, I'm quoting the Wire, when you start to follow the money, you don't know where the fuck it's going to take you. So that's what I encourage people to do.

[Sagar Enjeti]

How did he make his money? Yeah, I mean, what happened to all the videos, video recordings that we know exist from both his Manhattan residence and the island. Like there are some really big unanswered questions that remain and you know, one edited video with a portion missing I don't think is going to put to bed.

[Krystal Ball]

I agree.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Those persistent questions.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right. Okay, let's get to immigration.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. So some really interesting polling just came out from Gallup and I would say at this point, I would call this poll an outlier, although it is consistent with a trend in terms of public sentiment around immigration that we have seen reflected in other polls as well. So let's go ahead and put this up on the screen. According to Gallup, we now Have a huge surge in the number of people who say, hey, actually, I don't want immigration decreased. I want it to stay the same. A significant surge also in those who say actually want it increased and a major decline in those who say they want it decreased. So now the plurality of people say, hey, let's just keep things status quo at the present level. But even more significant, we actually have a record breaking number of people who say that immigration is a good thing for this country today. So it has spiked up to now 79% of the public who say overall they think immigration is a good thing for the country. It's worth noting this number has always actually been above water. The lowest was near 50%. That was in the year 2000. Two is at 52%. But even as recently as 2024, when you had sort of like a nadir in support for immigration in this country, it was still at 64%. But you've got a huge increase there to a record breaking number of 79% who are like, you know what, on net, I think immigrants are really a benefit to this country. They pulled a bunch of other, you know, you've got significant, obviously partisan divides with regards to immigration, but they pulled a number of other questions. And the shifts are all in the same direction, shifting towards more tolerance and support for immigration, less tolerance and support. For example, hiring significantly more Border Patrol agents. Those numbers declined by 17%. And it's not a mystery to understand, understand Sagar, why this is going on. People are seeing the reality of the Trump administration's immigration policy. They're seeing these raids, including ICE agents in, like, military gear and, you know, marching down suburban streets or riding on horseback through a park. They're seeing Alligator Alcatraz. They're seeing C cot the lack of due process. They're seeing the distance between the rhetoric of, hey, we're gonna be targeting the criminals, to the reality of, no, actually we're gonna be going to the Home Depot, going to the 7 11, et cetera. And it has caused a significant, I think you can say at this point, backlash to the Trump administration's direction.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I mean, this is, I warned about this in the beginning. In the Trump administration, the laws of thermostatic public opinion, there's probably no better issue than immigration. Whenever Trump is in office the first time around, record support for immigration. When Biden's in office, record low support for immigration. Now we're right back to where it is. The question is about solving a consensus. And to the extent that I think that the Trump administration can be criticized the most. It is for shows and it is for shows of force compared to any sort of semblance of process and of stability. I talked about this during la. The reason people turned against the Biden administration was the reality of 8 to 10 million people who float illegally into our country in an insane process. It was chaotic. And so the promise was we're going to solve the chaos. And on the border it's empirically true. They have, I mean their border crossings are basically zero right now. And so in a way they're almost benefiting from the success of the problem that they were truly elected to solve. Immediately on border then it's become a question of enforcement and or deportation. So it's one thing to have deportation or increase in the ICE budget of going after criminals, increasing investigation. It's another to send active duty US Marines to the streets of Los Angeles. It's another to have alligator Alcatraz. And then even on the question of Alcatraz, it's like one of those questions of specifically to emphasize the alligators there and the vibe of it. I understand tactically why they're doing it, which is the truth is that no matter how much money you spend, deporting 20 to 30 million people is like would cost hundreds of billions of dollars. A lot of it is about self deportation. They have succeeded. Over a million people have self deported in the last six months, at least. Rough estimate from the government figures. I'm not sure if we can trust that per se. But what we are watching is the thermostatic public opinion in effect. So I guess at this point, here's my advice to Democrats. Don't overread what these things actually mean. Last time around they're like, see, the public is with us and that means we shouldn't enforce border laws at all. Eight to 10 million people is good. We need to decriminalize border crossings, free healthcare for illegals and all of this. You guys have your moment at this point and you need to kind of settle on like what the status quo going forward should look like. And I think ultimately the failure of the last multiple administrations on immigration is either punting things for amnesty while not having enforcement, basically allowing rage to bubble up around the issue. I think the Trump administration unfortunately has just decided for these big headline grabbing things as opposed to actually trying to come to sort of consensus around this. And so it is now a live ball, an issue also which they've ceded so much ground on not just with ckot, but by turning it also into An Israel issue, which actually makes it, in my opinion, much worse for them because it makes it seem capricious to the ends of their own individual priorities. And not about America, because it's not just about the illegals here. We're talking about the Mahmoud Khalil case. We're talking about the Azturk case. We're also talking about foreigners being detained for having memes on their phones when entering the United States under tourism visa. The totality of that comes down to, like, oh, hold on a second. We asked for law. I mean, if you look at the rhetoric, it was law and order. And I think that what we've had right now, it just strays far away from that to the public and specifically the independent mind. It makes it very, very difficult. So I actually think this is a Democratic issue now, where you guys need to solve it for yourselves. And I'm curious to see what ground that they end up with for, like, what does the next Democratic candidate actually say on the issue of immigration? Can't be Kamala. Definitely. Can't be 2019. It can't be 2024 either. It's gotta be something authentic and kind of interesting to this moment, anyway.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I think that's well said. And the Israel part is interesting to me because I was thinking the same thing. And it's not just that it makes it seem, like, very clear. This is just, like an ideological tool being used against, you know, people the administration doesn't like or their ideological enemies. It also made it feel very personal.

[Krystal Ball]

It is personal. Quite literally.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, because it was like, oh, you can't even write a fricking authority ed about this, and you're being kidnapped off the streets. That's insane. And so when you had that combined at the very same time with these guys, many of whom were completely innocent, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, of course, who was wrongfully deported with zero due process. It doesn't take a genius either to figure out, like, if they get no due process, like, they didn't even have to prove that they were illegal immigrants. Like, they could just ship out anyone that they wanted to. So very quickly out of the gates, it became no longer about, oh, some sort of undefined, distant group of potential criminals. It became like, this is about us. This is about all of us. And I think that really, you know, the Kilmar Breguet Garcia case really was a turning point in terms of Trump administration numbers on this issue. And so while, you know, I think you're right, I think Democrats have to figure out you know, how do you have your own semblance of like, okay, this is going to be. There's going to be order. Because I do think people want to feel like, okay, we know who's coming in, and there's some sort of a process here, and it makes sense. But I do also think that there's lessons for centers here. I mean, number one, there was this assumption that just like the immigration numbers are what they are and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. That's clearly not true. People change their minds based on reality and what arguments are being presented to them and, like, how the issue is being framed and, you know, just, just what reality is at the time. So a public opinion can and does change, number one. And number two, there was a real reluctance from centrists in particular to fight even on something like Kilmar Abrego Garcia, remember, they were like, you should just be talking about the price of eggs.

[Krystal Ball]

I remember.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, now at this point, actually, Trump's immigration numbers have fallen off even more than his economic numbers and are one of the sort of key sources of dissatisfaction with the public. So that was a, that was a dead wrong analysis. It was wrong morally, in my opinion, but it was also wrong politically. And people like Chris Van Hollen, who went down to El Salvador and the folks who really made this and prioritized that issue, again, it was the right moral thing. It was also the right political choice and has now created a weakness for Trump on the issue where he was previously strongest, which is a classic political tactic of like, you go after the person's strength. That's actually the best way to bring someone down. So I think you had a combination of, number one, this became very quickly like, oh, this isn't about them, this is about us. Number two, I do think the imagery that they are intentionally cultivating to try to trigger these self deportations, and this is all being run by Stephen Miller. That same imagery of the ICE agents always being masked, of sometimes not identifying themselves, not having warrants, the show of force with all of this fricking military gear, the literal deployment of National Guardsmen and Marines in the streets of la, the way that these shows of force have occurred in. Just like there's a video of ICE agents all kitted out, marching down the street in suburban Utah. People like, what the fuck is going on here? To arrest them. Like Landscaper, what is going on? So I think that in addition to then Seekot and the cruelty there, Alligator, Alcatraz and the. It's very intentional, the Language choice and the decision to sort of highlight the punitive nature of what is being done here. I think when you put all of those things together and that sense of, like, this is actually creating more chaos in my community, I think those are the things that have sort of, like, turned this issue as significantly as ltd.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't really disagree. What I would also caution for a lot of people is, and this is always my problem with the talk about immigration, they don't distinguish in the Gallopole between legal and illegal immigration. And I would be willing to bet that if you actually looked at the way that people feel about unchecked illegal migration, like what was happening under the Biden administration, I'd be willing to bet that those are still some pretty negative numbers. And that's part of why, for the Democrats in the future, you guys need to figure out, like, how you can come to some sort of consensus on the issue. The way that the Republicans got to where they are right now is that for basically 40 years, they were told, amnesty is good, we'll do amnesty, and eventually we'll do border security. And in that time, the illegal immigration population explodes. Under Bush, under Obama, under Trump, and eventually they're like, no, I'm done. And then Biden, of course, is like fire forever. And so they don't even wanna talk here about amnesty until a massive deportation effort begins to happen on the immigration side. And question for the Democrats, it's also still remains like, immigration numbers have fallen. For Trump, it's still one of his stronger issues. And it's not like he can't exactly get to a place where you could declare legitimate victory. I mean, look at the border security numbers or the border crossing numbers from the Biden administration compared to today. It's unbelievable. In a way, they're almost a victim of their own success because now people are looking at the deportation efforts in Los Angeles or Utah or whatever, and there's no more chaos at the border, because it's a solved question. It's like, no, you're staying in Mexico and you're not coming here. So the question is there around what the future looks like for our policy. And look on the Trump administration thing, generally, my problem for them, at least as somebody was generally sympathetic, I still support mass deportation, but the way that they had done it is such that their trust in all their information is zero after ccot, because they said very specifically, maybe I'm a fool. I believe them. I was like, okay, these guys are gang members. I said, the federal government for years has always validated gang members. This is not a difficult policy to be able to figure out. Go ask anybody in the Bureau of Prisons. There's an entire process. How do we validate people who are in gangs? Maybe there's some questions around that, but fine. Broadly, I was like, I don't think we have much of an issue. And then you look at the stuff and you're like, okay. I mean, it was a lie. And then you look at the Israel stuff and you're like, okay, well, that's a lie, too. And so you start to get the credibility gap on the issue, such that you really, even when you are, in my opinion, sometimes deporting people really deservedly need to get the hell out of here, shouldn't even be here. But then you have an open conversation where people are not even gonna be able to trust some of the facts that you're putting out. And so when you have that out on the ether, I think it's very, very difficult for all of them. But I don't know. I mean, look, for me, I had a conversation in 2016 with somebody who I really respect, and he said, donald Trump will be the worst thing that ever happened to the immigration restriction movement. And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And he was like, listen, guys, what's gonna happen is they're gonna go full retard. They're gonna do it in the dumbest way possible, and they're gonna polarize the public against all of this. And I was like, yeah, that maybe it's valid. But look at all these other Republicans. They're all pro amnesty and all of that. Now I'm starting to think he might be right, but I mean, it took years, I guess, for him to sort.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Of like what's happening.

[Krystal Ball]

In some ways, yeah, you're right. It's like in some ways, it's like maybe this was the enemy of the cause all along. The counter for what they would say is nobody else has the balls to just do it, is in a second, second term, he's got three and a half more years to go. You can get a lot of million people out of this country and nobody else will do it. And then from that point forward, it's a future question. I guess I could see both sides. But, you know, as somebody who generally like, kind of likes to see some sort of consensus on the issue, I don't see it coming anytime soon on this.

[Sagar Enjeti]

In this particular poll, he only gets 35% approval of his handling.

[Krystal Ball]

Like you said, it's still immigration.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's a leading outline, 35%. And among independents, you have. I'm doing the math. I'm bad at math. 69% disapproval, 45% of them strongly disapprove. So almost half of independents say they strongly disapprove. And then an additional 24% says they disapprove, but not strongly. And then you only have 28% who approve this. Again, independents that I'm talking about here who say they approve. So, you know, it's obviously highly polarized. Republicans are very content, very happy with the immigration policy. Democrats, Democrats are 81% say they strongly disapprove. But that number from independents to me was really quite significant. And they're not letting up. They just passed the one big beautiful bill which is going to surge massive amounts of resources into ice. And so you're talking about whatever we're seeing now times however much now. I will say these organizations are often incompetent. I think they'll have a hard time hiring and deploying and a bunch of the money will just be basically stolen by private prison contractors who never really deliver what they promise and other consultants, et cetera. So there will be some discount on the money that's actually allocated. But they're about to have all of the resources in the world to do whatever they want. One of the things that I think is contributing to these very grim numbers on an issue that was previously a strength for Donald Trump is the display of so called alligator Alcatraz down in Florida. You just had a couple of members of Congress go and tour that facility. And there had been previous reporting too, to back up the comments here from we're going to play a little bit of Maxwell Frost about the truly abhorrent conditions in which people are being held within this facility. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of what he had to say.

[Maxwell Frost]

They opened the door. There was about six security guards standing there, kind of pushing us back. But we could see in and we could hear everybody. And when those doors open, you know, what I saw made my heart sink. I saw 32 people per cage, about six cages in the one tent. I saw a lot of people, young men who looked like me and people who were my age. People were yelling, help me, help me. I heard in the back someone say, I'm a U.S. citizen. And as we were walking away, they started chanting, leave it that, leave it that with that freedom. And looking into these cages, you could see, of course it was warm and hot within the tent. People were sweating. Some people had taken off their, their, their, their. The top of their clothing because it was just so hot. Some of them were drenched in sweat. The food we saw is not enough food. They're being fed essentially a small sandwich and a bag of chips. And not just that, but the conditions outside, of course, it's blazing hot. And the fact that the cage comes from the toilet, number one, not everyone's going to be able to drink as much water as they'd like to because of that inconvenience. But also it's gross and it's disgusting and this is where people are being helped.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So we've seen reporting indicating, you know, backing up what he's saying there. We've seen reporting of worms in the food. We've seen reporting of toilets that don't flush and sewage on the floor, insect infestations and the like. And then you ask yourself, Sagar, to your point, okay, well, who were they sending there? Because this is another instance where we were told this is only for the worst of the worst. Right. Let's put this up on the screen. Miami Herald has been doing some great work on this. Hundreds at Alligator Alcatraz actually have no criminal charges whatsoever. So, again, similar to what we saw when they sent immigrants to Guantanamo Bay, similar to what we saw when they sent immigrants to Seekot, in spite of the representation that this would be the worst of the worst. In fact, you're sending many hundreds of hundreds of people here who have no criminal charges in the United States whatsoever. And, and, you know, it's completely at odds with the portrayal here. And some of the people who have been picked up, it's just like, oh, they had a traffic ticket, something of that nature. And I think Maxwell Frost in that particular sod said that he heard people saying, hey, I'm a U.S. citizen. And, you know, it's very. Maybe, maybe not. But it's just, you can't trust this administration to handle any of this in anything approaching an appropriate manner. And they will just lie about the types of people that they are ultimately picking up here.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, it is difficult. I mean, I am very torn. I'm somebody who's. I mean, I don't think it's. You would admit, you know, you would admit this. I'm radical on the issue. At the end of the day, I don't believe in exclusion. If you came here illegally, I think you should go. I mean, I'm fine with, you know, prioritization and all of that, but I don't know, I personally just get very, you know, annoyed at, like, I Mean, do we have any of that raid footage of the California thing? That's the perfect example to me. Like, you have a weed farm. A weed farm which is still federally illegal, where you have people who are illegal working there, nine of whom are unaccompanied minors, many of whom almost all are illegal, so that people in California can get high and they are working at, like, slave wages. It's like, how is that a reasonable system? Like, why is the governor of California, another standing up and saying, actually, this is all totally above board? I'm like, no, this is disgusting. It's bad for the kids. And then it's like, the only time anybody expresses any outrage is whenever you send people who are being exploited here back to where they came from. It's like the whole system is all fucked up, but I don't know. And people only care when they're removed. The status quo seems like, fine. I mean, I don't think you support that. But functionally, that's where the Democratic Party was on the immigration issue. All this slave labor is totally okay. All of this unchecked illegal migration. You know, you have children basically working in these, like, marijuana fields so that rich yuppies in Venice beach can get high. I'm like, I'm sorry. That's a gross, like, order to the way that our whole society works. And it's like, we only care whenever somebody goes and, like, you know, either takes care or arrests them. Some of these people have, like, serious criminal charges. That's where, you know, everyone's like, oh, the cruelty of this. Is there no cruelty in the fact that these people, you know, these kids are, like, working to, like, pick weed so that people, rich yuppies or whatever, can get high? I think that's cruel. I think it's bad. Why did nobody say anything when they were being sent here across the border? What kind of parent is sending their kid illegally across the border to go work in a weed field? And yet, oh, these asylum and all, it's like, no, I'm sorry, that's bullshit. Nobody cared.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I don't really personally care what type of farm it is. But, I mean, here's the thing, though, Zaber, is that, like, you're expressing a view of caring about cruelty or, like, human rights and dignity. And so when you see someone who's being exploited by a system where, you know, they're like, these farms are probably are labor abuses, hiring literal children, which is outrageous. Like, they should be prosecuted for that. No doubt about it. But then you're taking the farm Worker, and you're shipping them to a place like Alligator Alcatraz, or just, like, out of the country. No due process. To be abused and effectively tortured and held in completely inhumane conditions like that is certainly not a reflection of any sort of concern for humanity or dignity.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't disagree per se, but it's like, look, it's a stop off on the way for deportation. You are not supposed to be here. At the end of the day, you came here illegally. There are consequences for breaking the law. And there's also this idea that there's, like, a statue of limitations, like, oh, but they've been here for years. It's like, okay, I mean, you came here. You shouldn't have been here. You're working illegally. Of course you're liable to consequences for your actions. It's like, we take the agency away from these people.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I think you have to know the system. But I think you have to acknowledge, though, I mean, the point of a place like Alligator Alcatraz is a demonstration of horror. I mean, that's what it is intended to do. And that's the reason also for, like, you know, there's a fricking, like, helicopter that landed in the field. Delivery, you know, and. And they're coming in in these armored vehicles and with military gear and all of these sorts of things. It's meant to terrorize. That is the goal. It's meant to terrorize. And so while I think it's certainly reasonable, okay, well, how many people can we absorb? And what's the appropriate level? These are questions nations have to ask themselves. I don't think that many people find it acceptable that someone whose only crime was. Which is not even, you know, a felony, whatever. It's a civil infraction, but whose only crime is crossing the border illegally and who has been living, working, doing the right thing, et cetera. That a punishment commensurate with that is being, like, put into these horrific conditions in. Whether it's Alligator, Alcatraz, or the other detention facilities also have, you know, quite abhorrent punishments as well.

[Krystal Ball]

How do you deport somebody?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, I mean, I think. But that's a reasonable question.

[Krystal Ball]

Just tell them to leave. They're not gonna leave. They don't leave.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But actually, in reality, the number of people who do show up for their court hearings is quite high.

[Krystal Ball]

But you're talking about asylum. I'm talking to people who are already here.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But number two, another option is we have these things called ankle bracelets, where you are monitored and tracked. And so it doesn't require insane cruelty. So your working assumption here is that they're trying to, in a good faith way. I don't even know if you really believe this, but in a good faith way deal with this logistical challenge. No, I'm not talking and I don't think that they are dealing in a good faith way with this logistical challenge. I think there are many other routes. Even if you wanted to accomplish the goal, which is not a goal I agree with, that would not entail mass institutionalized cruelty. But they intentionally choose the mass institutionalized cruelty and don't look for any solution that would probably create an even more like, even more rapid outcome. But that does not include that sort of horror because the horror and the terror like that is a core part of their.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't disagree that it's part of a strategy to get them to go, but it's also like, you know, we do this for criminals too. You know, if you, for example, drunk driving is not, I believe so. Right. It's not a felony. Am I think, what am I getting wrong here? There's something about, I think it's a, there's some type of whatever misdemeanor, like you'll lose your license. You get thrown in the drunk tank. No, like you get to go to prison. Do you know why you do or not prison? You get to go to jail for a couple of days. And yes, you eat a sandwich and a bag of chips. That's like standard prison food fare. Why? Because drunk driving is bad. You broke the law. It's also, I think it's not a class A felony or whatever. There are all kinds of things for which we have preemptive or we have punishment in which, yes, some of the treatment is part of the course to trying to discourage, to make sure that you don't participate in this illegal activity. And like that's what I'm saying is you come here illegally, you take advantage of the United States, the openness of the United States of America. You know, there's also this talk about paying taxes. Just total bullshit.

[Sagar Enjeti]

No, it's not.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, absolutely. Oh yes. Vast numbers of 30 million illegals are filing their income taxes.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Come on. Actually, no, no, no, no. There is a significant tax contribution from undocumented immigration.

[Krystal Ball]

Once again, like if you look at that statistically compared to gen Pop. And then also, even if that is the case, you're not supposed to be here at a principal level. And if we add up all the wealth, welfare and Medicaid and hospital bills of all these people in our Society, I'd be willing to bet it's still a net negative on a social basis. Just purely net in net out. You can make GDP arguments in other cases, but it just comes back to like, yes, there are consequences for breaking the law. If you want to change that law, be my guest. Biden, Obama, all these people had multiple houses of Congress and they never did. So as long as the system is currently constituted, you're here illegally, there are consequences for doing that. Yes, I think the government in many cases has both lied and gone too far under the Trump administration. But the core goal is still one that I think most people would want of some sort of order. And the fact that we have to know who you are here and yes, that if you came here illegally under false pretenses, at the very least the government needs to check you out and we need to figure out what's going on. And my belief is you should be sent back to where you, you came from and perhaps in the future we can have some sort of reapply. Now, many people will disagree with me on that subject, but I really don't know how he could have lived through the Biden administration and the way that the permission structure came for when 8 to 10 million people flow illegally into our country and not believe in a serious effort to deal with this at a law and order level. I really just don't know how we can still come down to compassion. And it's like, like these people are the biggest abusers of US Asylum law in all of history. They're all economic migrants. They'll admit it if you ask them. And it's like we're just supposed to let them in and give them citizenship, apparently, because they, quote, want a better life. You can want a better life wherever you are. There are people all over the world who want a better life. Just because you have the proximity to walk into the United States of America, you're not special.

[Sagar Enjeti]

I mean, Sagr, obviously I disagree with you on the policy, but I think, I think what the punishment throughout history for that has been, has been getting deported back to your home country, not to some random third country where you may be in danger and don't speak the language and don't know anyone and have never been not being disappeared, which is what's happening without even any record into some place that has been set up to intentionally be cruel and horrific and deny you basic human rights not to be disappeared into a foreign slave labor gulag like zcot. The idea, okay, you're here illegally, you're gonna go. You know, the country has voted, and they've decided, like, we only want a certain level of undocumented population. You're going back to your home country. That's been the idea.

[Krystal Ball]

What do you do when the home country won't take it?

[Sagar Enjeti]

Ultimately, why do you think they're going.

[Krystal Ball]

To a third country? Because they don't want them back.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But that's not even true.

[Krystal Ball]

What are they supposed to do?

[Sagar Enjeti]

But that's not even true in many instances. So, for example, Venezuela, there were ongoing negotiations. Venezuela was accepting immigration return, like deportation returns, flights into that country. So, you know, you can't. You also can't act like the Trump administration has no power here to, like, make a deal and do some diplomacy to be able to effectuate those returns. But, you know, just on the. On the numbers of how people feel about this now, and it's actually not that different from how they felt about it when Trump was running on mass deportation. 78% say that they would like to see a pathway to citizenship for immigrants who are living in the US Illegally if they meet certain requirements. So there is a sort of very widespread acceptance of immigration, of being an important part of the fabric and character of this nation, of the sense of, like, hey, if you're here and you did the right thing and you were working and you didn't do anything wrong, like, we should give you a chance to become a citizen. That is a very popular and widespread view. And like I was saying, that number has gone up, but actually, in 2024, it was still 70% who felt that way. So I think people are very on board with, like, okay, you're a criminal, you're in a gang, whatever, yes, let's get you out of here. But the reason that there's been such a backlash is when you go much beyond that, it does start to rub up against people's sense of actually what America is, and certainly the way that they want to see people treated by their government, whether they're citizen or not.

[Krystal Ball]

Look, that's just gonna be a disagreement. You broke the law, you came here illegally just because you happened to be here and allegedly didn't commit a crime, except for the first crime that you did by entering our country. Get a free pass. It's crazy to me, all right? It's an insult to the millions of people who spent, you know, people like my parents and others who came here legally spent thousands of dollars of their own money going through the process. A pain in the ass. Ask anybody who's ever done it. And oh, because somebody gets to walk here and then be basically, basically low wage labor. They're allowed, you know, a special process just by being here long enough. It's preposterous. I mean, and it's one of those, look, I'll keep making that case forever up until the day they do eventually pass amnesty. I don't think there's any basic fairness. It is completely preferential treatment. It is just like, I don't know, we've debated this, you know, forever.

[Sagar Enjeti]

To continue, one last news item I do want to slip in here on immigration. Let's put D5 up on the screen. There was a significant court decision in California halting what they're describing as indiscriminate immigration stops in LA and beyond. And basically what a judge found here is that, you know, a lot of credible evidence that they are just basically racially profiling. You know, roll up on the Home Depot, see some Latino, like, Spanish speakers, and just arrest them. And we've got a number of instances. One that was a part of this case in particular, it was actually a car wash. And the guy was like, I'm an American citizen. Here is my identification. And they were like, you don't have your passport, so that's not good enough. So we're arresting you. And they had other instances too, where, I mean, this seems to be the sort of approach of just like, we're gonna go into places where we think that undocumented immigrants congregate. We're gonna check out whether you're speaking Spanish and what your skin tone is, et cetera, and we're gonna arrest you if we have any suspicion whatsoever, not based on anything other than basically like ethnicity and the location that you are. And you have a judge who says, that's racial profiling. You can't do that. That's against the Fourth Amendment. Okay, so we're still focused on the aftermath of those horrific floods in Texas, which I actually don't think we've gotten to hear anything from you on. So I'm interested to get your take here as well. But we have a lot of questions about Doge cuts to National Weather Service and noaa, the sort of pushing out of some key individuals who should have been involved in warning community members. So you have those, you know, was the forecast. Could the forecast have been better if you didn't have the Doge cuts? Could the warnings have been better if you didn't have the Doge cuts? Those questions on the front end. Now you have the question, now that you're into the recovery phase about FEMA's performance. And let me go ahead and put guys E2 up on the screen here. There's some significant reporting from the New York Times that FEMA failed to answer thousands of calls from flood survivors. And this is directly attributable to the fact that Kristi Noem at dhs, which runs fema, they allowed these call center contracts to lapse. They were not extended. And so you had a loss of personnel, personnel who would ordinarily be the ones fielding these calls at this critical moment. And so you've just been hit with a flood. You've lost everything that you owned. You're trying to figure out, okay, how do I interface with the federal government, et cetera. Most people, the way they go about trying to navigate that bureaucracy and that paperwork is through this hotline, these call centers. And they did not have nearly the personnel in place to handle this flood of calls. In addition, there was another program previously in place where FEMA would actually go door to door to people who had been impacted by any sort of natural disaster or flood in the this instance and help them be able to, you know, organize their paperwork and figure out what they could apply for, et cetera. That program has also been cut. Kristi Noem under fire and trying to answer for this on Sunday shows. Let's go ahead and take a listen to what she had to say.

[Kristi Noem]

A rule that you recently implemented, it reportedly requires that every FEMA contract, every grant over $100,000, be personally approved by you. Now, officials within the agency have told multiple news outlets that the policy led to a slower deployment of some FEMA resources, including urban search and rescue crews. So let me just ask you, did your policy delay some of the critical response resources on the ground in Texas? You know, those claims have, are absolutely false. Within just an hour or two after the flooding, we had resources from the Department of Homeland Security there helping those individuals. In Texas, there were resources that were deployed, but I think the question revolves around work, all of the necessary resources deployed. According to reports, multiple FEMA officials said you didn't approve the deployment of these FEMA search and rescue teams until Monday, which was 72 hours after the flood started.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Nope.

[Kristi Noem]

They were deployed immediately, as soon as they were requested. When was the request put in and when did you approve it? And is this accurate that there's this $100,000 sign off? The $100,000 sign off is for every contract that goes through the Department of Homeland Security. You did implement that. It's an accountability on contracts that go forward when did you get the request for these search and rescue teams and other resources? Immediately respond immediately. What date? And everyone will tell you. According to reports, they didn't arrive until we'll say, well, this is what I think is really unfortunate.

[Sagar Enjeti]

And Tiger Trump, of course, had originally been really sort of ideologically opposed to FEMA at all, wanted to send all disaster relief to the states. In the wake of this, he seems to be backing off, off of some of those more maximalist demands. But there's no question that FEMALE National Weather Service, they have been impacted by the Doge cuts. And some very serious questions being raised here about the impact that that had specifically in this horrific incident.

[Krystal Ball]

You can roll the tape. What did I say after the airplane disaster? I was like, it's coming. I was like, you don't want to do it. It's the last part of the government that you actually want to cut. NOAA and the National Weather Service and all these other places, places. But eventually they just forget. And this also gets to a basic issue of competence. And I've also been thinking about this with regard to the Trump administration. I actually can't underestimate how incompetent they have acted. Just look at the last six months. Elon's in charge now. He's not in charge with the tariffs on. We have the tariffs off. You can't look at the current cabinet, except in some very few cases and be like, yeah, they've got it. These are the guys who are really up to the job. I said that about Kirsty Noem. I remember. I was like, this lady was the governor of South Dakota, which, no offense, South Dakota, nobody even lives there. And now you're in charge of the largest law enforcement agency in the world. What, like, in what possible way are you qualified? I don't think that she's handled herself good at playing. But that's my point, you know, that shit matters whenever you have a full blown flood. By the way, you know, I've been to a lot of those areas. It's horrible. I mean, it's devastating. You know, what happened there. It's still like an open question. It's the whole National Weather Service. You know, I was reading the TikTok about the alert went out, but it was at 4am and there's open questions about the state agency. And you know, there's some stuff here about the camp, what is it Camp mystic and how their actual, their permits kept getting delayed. It's a slow rolling disaster, actually. If you kind of look at the background of the way this all happened, so nobody's, like, directly attributed. But let's not forget, I mean, it's July 14th. You and I are talking right now. When's hurricane season? People, you know, do the math. You are only one disaster away from a catastrophic news cycle for the administration. If there's even one way that the weather service and all those people didn't do something. And there's another. I mean, remember Hurricane Sandy? That was a disaster. I mean, it came out of nowhere. Billions of dollars in damage. FEMA shit the bed on that one, too. I can't even really think of the last time they did a great job in response to a hurricane thing. And that becomes, like, serious political issue, which they can directly trace back to Doge. They have them literally bragging about it on camera. And especially now with, you know, now that the fact that the Doge project has basically been a complete failure, they are. They just open themselves up for any future airline disaster, any future storm, any future hurricane. And then they don't have the best and the brightest who are in charge right now.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Well, and I think. But to that point, they had someone who had emergency management experience in place at fema. Originally, they had a guy named Cameron Hamilton. He was a Navy seal, former combat medic, former director of the Emergency Medical Services Division at the Department of Homeland Security. He got fired a month ago because he dared to testify to Congress that he thought FEMA should continue to exist. So he got fired and they put in his place this guy named David Richardson, who. There was all kinds of reporting. He has no background in this whatsoever. There was all kinds of reporting about how he didn't know anything. He was like, when's hurricane season? Or what even is hurricane season? I mean, just a complete nutter moron. Which is why you haven't seen him at all. I mean, think about the, like, you know, good job, Brownie situation. At least Brownie was out there trying to do something. This guy, we don't even see him. He doesn't even exist. Because even this administration is smart enough to realize, like, it's gonna be a train wreck if we put this dude out there. Cause he doesn't know shit about shit. That's the guy who you have running fema. I mean, fema, I'm sure, has his problems. I have no doubt about it that you could do a better job with disaster recovery, but you are just making it so much worse and degrading its capabilities in ways that are blatantly obvious. Not only do you have this call center fiasco. But you also had some reporting, independent reporting as well, about how the number of FEMA staffers that were on the ground were next to nothing compared to what it would have been ordinarily in previous circumstances. So, yeah, I mean, it's just this is an area where it felt like during all the Doge chainsaw madness, they just thought that nothing was ever going to matter. You know, it just was this sense of unreality, like, oh, we can just slash and burn wherever and whatever without any regard, like not even trying to do it in an intelligent way. And that there's, there's never gonna be any impact from that. And this is like in the most horrific way possible. You got 130 plus dead now and 160 still missing. Reality hitting you in the face of like, no, actually, sometimes government functions are literally life and death.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, it didn't take a genius or anybody even remotely familiar with everything. And I think, yeah, I think Doge will continue to be a noose around the neck of the administration for the next four years. You're just waiting one disaster. I mean, look at the Air India crash that came out of nowhere. You had a Boeing 787 that crashed in the middle of a city according to pilot error. I mean, imagine if something like that happened here today. I literally on my way here, I saw a plane, it was maybe like 20, 30ft above me as it was landing over Ronald Reagan. And I was like, I don't know about this, man.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You know, no offense to Air India, but don't fly.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, no offense to Air India.

[Sagar Enjeti]

It's scary offense.

[Krystal Ball]

Sue me. You're the worst airline.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Some of my nobody fly experiences are on Air India. Avoid.

[Krystal Ball]

Sorry, Air India. You guys gotta up your game. It's terrible. Anybody flyers? I mean, maybe if they have a deal. But honestly, at this point, I'm not flying at any time soon. Anyways, thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate you. We'll see you tomorrow.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Danielle Fishel]

This is an iHeart podcast.