7/22/25: Cuomo Admits Why Zohran Won, AOC Flamed For Israel Vote, Tim Dillon Reveals JD Epstein Cope, MAHA Cane Sugar

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar: Episode Summary (July 22, 2025)

Breaking Points is a fearless anti-establishment podcast hosted by Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti. In this episode released on July 22, 2025, the hosts delve into significant political revelations, scrutinize the Department of Justice's handling of the Epstein case, and engage in a comprehensive discussion on nutritional science with guest Dr. Lane Norton.

---

1. Andrew Cuomo's Admission and the Election Outcome

The episode opens with a critical analysis of leaked audio featuring former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo. Cuomo provides an autopsy of his loss to Zohran Alem, a Green Party candidate, revealing unexpected dynamics in the election.

• Underestimation of the Youth Vote: Cuomo acknowledges, "[02:18]... all the polls had me up 15 points" but admits, "[02:18]... I played it safe" by not adequately engaging with Alem.

• Young Voters and Socialist Surge: Cuomo discusses an "explosion of the under 30 vote," highlighting that "under 30 white socialists... were pro-Palestinian" [02:41]. This demographic shift significantly influenced the election results.

• Jewish Voter Dynamics: A startling revelation emerges as Cuomo admits that "more than 50% of Jewish voters in New York voted for Mamdani" [04:11]. This contradicts mainstream media narratives suggesting a threat to Jewish voters, instead indicating their support for Alem.

• Implications for Anti-Semitism Messaging: The hosts argue that Cuomo's admission "flips the entire situation on its head" [04:52], questioning how widespread anti-Semitic sentiments can coexist with significant Jewish support for a socialist candidate.

---

2. Critique of the Democratic National Committee's (DNC) Election Autopsy

Krystal and Saagar critique the DNC's approach to analyzing the 2024 election losses, highlighting a lack of introspection on key strategic decisions.

• Surface-Level Analysis: The DNC focuses on "where they spent their money," particularly criticizing the "amount of money spent on TV ads" [08:13]. However, they neglect deeper strategic questions such as Biden's reelection campaign decisions [07:18].

• Comparison with the Republican National Committee (RNC): The hosts point out that the RNC's post-election analysis was more honest, albeit flawed, whereas the DNC avoids uncomfortable truths [08:33].

• Call for Transparent Autopsy: They emphasize the importance of acknowledging mistakes, stating, "putting it on paper actually is important because you need to admit to ourselves" [11:39].

---

3. Epstein Files and DOJ/FBI Statements

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to scrutinizing the Department of Justice's (DOJ) recent statements regarding Jeffrey Epstein's case.

• DOJ's Limited Investigation: The Deputy Attorney General, stated that "no evidence was uncovered that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties" [24:46]. This has fueled speculations of a potential cover-up.

• Ghislaine Maxwell's Involvement: The DOJ now plans to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell, a move that was previously unaccounted for. Maxwell's attorney claims, "Ghislaine will always testify truthfully" and criticizes the government for breaking promises [26:00].

• Contradictions in DOJ Statements: Tim Dillon reveals that Vice President J.D. Vance informed him that the footage reviewed by the DOJ was "just personal pornography for Jeffrey Epstein's personal use" [31:12]. This statement contradicts the DOJ's claim of having substantial evidence.

---

4. Tim Dillon's Revelation on J.D. Vance and Epstein

Comedian Tim Dillon shares exclusive information from a dinner with Vice President J.D. Vance, adding layers to the Epstein investigation narrative.

• Minimal Evidence Against Powerful Individuals: Dillon reports that Vance stated, "[31:09]... all the thousands of hours of footage was just personal pornography" [31:12], implying no incriminating evidence against other powerful figures.

• Skepticism Towards Government Narratives: The hosts express doubt over the administration's claims, suggesting that such statements may be attempts to downplay potential conspiracies [32:00].

---

5. White House's Handling of the Epstein Story

The hosts critique the Trump administration's response to emerging Epstein-related revelations, highlighting actions that suggest an attempt to control the narrative.

• Exclusion of The Wall Street Journal: The White House removed Wall Street Journal reporters from the press pool amidst the Epstein story, raising concerns about transparency [37:10].

• Press Pool Manipulation: Ryan Grim notes, "The White House press pool is like a select small group of journalists that travels with the President," and questions why reputable journalists are being sidelined [37:20].

• Connections with the Murdoch Family: The episode references a meeting between J.D. Vance and the Murdoch family prior to the Epstein story's release, insinuating potential behind-the-scenes maneuvers [33:49].

---

6. AOC's Stance on Israel and Internal Party Struggles

The discussion shifts to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) and her controversial stance on Israel, which has led to internal conflicts within the Democratic Party.

• AOC's Amendment on Military Aid: Krystal Ball criticizes AOC's opposition to Marjorie Taylor Greene's amendment aimed at cutting offensive aid to Israel, stating, "It's impossible to square" supporting defensive weapons with condemning certain military actions [16:00].

• Accusations of Inconsistency: The hosts argue that AOC's position undermines arguments against anti-Semitism, as significant Jewish support exists within the movements she's associated with [17:10].

---

7. Nutritional Debate: Cane Sugar and Seed Oils with Dr. Lane Norton

In the latter part of the episode, Krystal and Saagar host Dr. Lane Norton, a PhD in Nutritional Science, to dissect recent government endorsements of cane sugar Coca-Cola and the replacement of seed oils with saturated fats in fast food.

• Cane Sugar vs. High Fructose Corn Syrup: Dr. Norton explains that "biochemically there is very little difference between cane sugar and high fructose corn syrup" [42:32]. He emphasizes that substituting one for the other in beverages like Coke has negligible effects on metabolic health.

• Seed Oils vs. Saturated Fats: Addressing claims that seed oils are harmful, Dr. Norton presents evidence showing that replacing seed oils with saturated fats "has a neutral or worse effect" on health outcomes [54:44]. Cohort studies indicate that higher consumption of seed oils correlates with lower rates of cardiovascular disease and mortality compared to saturated fats [54:45].

• Caloric Intake Over Ingredients: The discussion underscores the importance of overall caloric intake over specific ingredients. Dr. Norton states, "the average calorie intake in the United States of America is 3540 per day... that is why we have a health crisis" [57:24].

• Critique of Government Health Messaging: The hosts criticize the government's focus on ingredients like seed oils and sugar instead of addressing the root cause of health issues—excessive caloric consumption and insufficient physical activity [60:45].

• GLP-1 Drugs and Appetite Suppression: Dr. Norton highlights the efficacy of GLP-1 mimetics in reducing caloric intake and improving metabolic health, contrasting it with outdated focuses on metabolism alone [62:20].

---

Conclusion

This episode of Breaking Points offers a deep dive into the complexities of modern political dynamics, election strategies, and public health debates. Through incisive discussions and expert insights, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti challenge mainstream narratives and encourage listeners to question established institutions and policies.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Saagar Enjeti on Cuomo's Strategy:
  "[02:41]... I'm too aggressive. I'm too combative. I'm too tough."

• Krystal Ball on Jewish Voter Support:
  "[04:25]... more than a half of Jewish voters voted for Mamdani because they support him."

• Saagar Enjeti on Seed Oils:
  "[54:45]... if we replace in a one to one ratio with saturated fat... people who consume seed oils or plant oils in place of saturated fat live longer."

• Dr. Lane Norton on Caloric Intake:
  "[60:45]... the average calorie intake in the United States of America is 3540 per day. And the average physical activity is less than 20 minutes per day."

---

Stay Connected: For more insights and updates, visit BreakingPoints.com and become a member to access full shows, unedited and ad-free.

Transcript

[Ryan Grim]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Football is back. Let's go baby. On July 26th and 27th, teams across the league take the field for Back.

[Ryan Grim]

Together weekend presented by YouTube TV.

[Sagar Enjeti]

With two full days of practices, player.

[Ryan Grim]

Interviews and behind the scenes access, it's a can't miss NFL reunion. Back Together Weekend presented by YouTube TV. July 26th and 27th.

[Krystal Ball]

Go to NFL.comBackTogetherWeekend for more information.

[Unknown]

Every business has an ambition. PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo pay later and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing. There's one platform for all business PayPal open grow today at paypal paypalopen.com loans subject to approval in available locations hello.

[Ryan Grim]

It is Ryan and we could all.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Use an extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we? Just to make up for things like.

[Ryan Grim]

Sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, counting.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Your steps, you know, all the mundane stuff.

[Ryan Grim]

That is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino. Chumba Casino has all your favorite social casino style games that you can play for free, anytime, anywhere with daily bonuses. So sign up [e-mail] that's chumbacasino.com no.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Purchase necessary vgw group void we're prohibited by law 21 + terms and conditions apply.

[Ryan Grim]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are.

[Ryan Grim]

So excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every.

[Ryan Grim]

Morning in we need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail].

[Krystal Ball]

Andrew Cuomo in leaked audio has an analysis of why he lost his run. Mamdani and he's kind of dead on. Let's listen to some of this.

[Sagar Enjeti]

All the polls had me up 15 points and all the geniuses say, you know, you're up 15 points, you want to play it safe, you want to play it safe. And he was nowhere on the radar screen, we played it safe. I didn't engage him. I didn't debunk him enough. I wasn't aggressive enough, which is really ironic, because all my life, I'm too aggressive. I'm too combative.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm too tough.

[Sagar Enjeti]

There was an explosion of the under 30 vote. Under 30 white socialists who voted 3, 4, 5 times what anyone had ever seen. And that totally changed the numbers. The young people who came out, they were socialists and they were pro Palestinian. And I would wager that in that primary, more than 50% of the Jewish people were from Mandamus. This socialist wave in the Democratic Party, this aoc, Bernie Sanders going across the country, the no Kings, brought out hundreds of thousands of young people at rallies all across the country, basically fueled by anti Trump, but anti Trump then fits with socialism, then fits with pro Palestinian. And he was the perfect vehicle for this under 30 wave of reform and a new reality.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, so Cuomo. It's all interesting, but Cuomo acknowledging that more than 50% of Jewish voters in New York voted for Mamdani.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Is so striking, because if you follow the mainstream media coverage of this election and the result, you would think that Jewish New Yorkers are now deeply under threat.

[Ryan Grim]

That's right.

[Krystal Ball]

Because of the election of Mamdani. That this is a scary situation, that all Democrats need to condemn Mamdani and make sure that Jewish people in New York are safe from the scourge of the Mamdani movement. Yet the same people pushing that message understand that actually the reverse is true.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

More than a half of Jewish voters voted for Mamdani because they support him.

[Ryan Grim]

They either didn't care about the intifada or did Komo say Infatada. The Infatada or whatever. Or they actually supported it. And they were like, yeah, I'm Jewish, but I don't really care as much about Israel. I think the way they're conducting themselves is ridiculous. This has been a hallmark of the pro Palestinian movement, especially on the left now, for years at this point.

[Krystal Ball]

And you know who else acknowledged that? In an interview with Hugh. Hugh at Donald Trump.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

He was like, hugh, you know what? Like, lots of the people on these. At these campus protests are young Jewish.

[Ryan Grim]

Kids, which we knew because we.

[Krystal Ball]

And he was like, yeah, there are some misguided kids. No, they're not outliers. Like, it's. Now he meant it as a negative because he was angry at the time, at the Jewish vote because it was polling Democratic. So he's angry. So he's like, oh, take these Kids. But when you acknowledge that fact, it just flips the entire thing on its head.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

Like, how can all of this be anti Semitic if there are so many Jewish people participating in it?

[Ryan Grim]

And. Yeah, but the thing is, though, is that that audio directly contradicts the messaging then of the Cuomo campaign, which is all about, oh, he's an anti semi. He's ridiculous. And that's part of the reason. That's basically what's animating his independent run is a bunch of like, rich Jewish, I guess, right wing or centrist billionaires.

[Krystal Ball]

Republicans.

[Ryan Grim]

Republicans upset about. It's true. It's obvious these people are supporting Cuomo specifically to make sure that Mamdani doesn't win. So he can both admit it there, and he can both admit it in terms of the audio, but in terms of his public messaging, him and Adams are united around the, oh, he's anti Israel. And it's, you know, he's anti Israel, he's an anti Semite, and that's why you shouldn't vote for him. That's part of what makes it so ridiculous, because his analysis is absolutely correct.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't quite understand Cuomo's assessment that Mamdani came from nowhere.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Like, at least the last month of the campaign, it was clear that this was a close race. At the very least, it was gonna be close.

[Ryan Grim]

And he did a terrible job.

[Krystal Ball]

Obviously, if he really couldn't see it coming even at the end, it's like, what are you doing, man? What is going on here? Incredible. So that's a fairly reasonable autopsy.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes, that's actually a real autopsy from.

[Krystal Ball]

Cuomo and it valuable to him because he is apparently planning to run in the general election. And who knows? With enough money, anything's possible. You know, Mamdani can't, like, completely rest on the laurels of the nomination, but the National Democratic party, through the DNC, is running its own autopsy of 2024. We can put up this New York Times element up on the screen. And according to reporting from the paper here, the researchers are telling people that they're speaking to that they are not going to look at the question of whether or not Biden should have run for reelection, the question of whether he should have dropped out much sooner, the question of whether there should have been an open primary, the question of whether it should have been handed to Kamala Harris, or even the decisions that the Harris campaign made on what to run on. Yes, they're not going to look at that.

[Ryan Grim]

How can you possibly have a real, like, here's what's funny, the rnc, then after Romney's loss, was more honest in its autopsy than the dnc. And that autopsy, by the way, was incredibly stupid. The idea behind that autopsy was we need to endorse amnesty. They're like, oh, Romney's meanness towards immigration is the reason that he lost.

[Krystal Ball]

Right? Self deport.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, self deport and all that. That was too mean. And that's why we actually need a pro open borders candidate. And then in 2016, Donald Trump wins the election on a build the wall message just to show you how dumb these autopsies are. But even that autopsy was more honest at the very least. Cuz it tried to be like, okay, what are some of the key decisions the Romney campaign made? Here, here and here. Here's how we think that we should address it. They were totally wrong, obviously in retrospect. But here they're not even going to look at it. Like they say the quote, the review is expected to. The review is not. It's not expected to reveal key decisions by the Harris campaign like framing the election as a choice between democracy and fascism, refraining from hitting back after ads from Donald Trump attacked Ms. Harris on transgender rights that have royal Democrats in the months. How can you have any serious discussion? Like that means then that the real. And this sounds cringe as hell to say that means that the real Democratic autopsy is taking place on the podcast. It's not taking place in the mainstream media. Right. They're not asking any uncomfortable questions except Biden's age, but they're not talking about the issues. The issues are all being hashed out right now between Pod Save America and Crystal and all these other like left podcasters who are trying to decide what the hell went wrong in the 2024 election. Right, but that's the craziest part about this is then what is the part, what is the purpose of the DNC at this point? Like, is it not to win an election? Apparently not. It's to protect the people who are in power, or not even in power, who were in power. Ryan, like you got to explain like where this comes from, how is this possible?

[Krystal Ball]

So what they are looking at, according to the Times here, and Jane Klebb, Deputy dnc says it in the, in the article here, they're going to look at where they spent their money and particularly where the super pac, the outside super PAC, spent its money. And her argument is that what they're, what they're finding is that the amount of money that they spent on TV ads is way too Much. And they need to invest it in kind of on the ground organizing and other things that aren't just broadcasting cable TV. Now, super PACs are already pushing back, saying, we actually didn't spend that much on tv, we spent a lot on digital, et cetera. So it's much more of a kind of mechanical argument around tactics rather than, you know, substance and strategy, which you could say in a. In a proper party where you have factions competing for power within it, that the DNC ought to be a neutral platform and actually should just look at what tactics work and then leave the substance to the battle between AOC and Bernie on one hand and Fetterman and Schumer and whoever elsewhere. And then once that contest is over and one party, one faction within the party is dominant, then here are the tactics we're going to play. Play out in the. In a general election, that that would be the best argument possibly for it. But they're also. They're just afraid that they're going to offend all of the powerful people who, you know, stood by and allowed these dumb things to happen. Because also, you probably don't. In their defense, maybe you don't need an autopsy to be like, this was dumb. All of this was wrong.

[Ryan Grim]

Okay, but put it on paper. Putting it on paper actually is important because you need to. Everything needs to be admitted to ourselves. Like we to say, guys, here's what went wrong. It was a disaster.

[Krystal Ball]

Not doing the trans thing is interesting.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, well, okay, but even on the trans thing, right again, you don't have to. You just have to lay out a variety of views. Look at the polling. Be like, look what went wrong here? Why didn't they push back against this view? Was it a mistake in 2019 for Kamala to give an interview and say that the feds should fund gender transition surgeries? Yeah, I think it was. All right. Rahm Emanuel's going out there saying it is like, maybe you disagree with him. That's fine. But it should obviously be part of the debate. You should analyze that decision and say, to what extent was this messaging powerful? Just lay it out there. You don't even have to make a qualitative decision. Look at it issue by issue and then also look at the key decision of Biden's even run again and say, obviously this was a disaster. Was this ever a winnable race? That's an open question. I actually, I'm not really sure if it ever was. It might have been lost from 2021 onwards with Biden's approval rating, but I don't know. I mean, I tend to think that every election is technically winnable at any point. You know, it's just all about the. It's just all about the decisions that you make from there.

[Unknown]

Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo pay later and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing. There's one platform for all business PayPal Open grow today at PayPalOpen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with Anabe, you never have to stress about Messes again. @washablesofas.com Discover Annabe Sofas the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

It's happening right now. The Nick's annual warehouse sale July 10th [e-mail] we're clearing out the warehouse and the savings are big. Save up to 50% on select styles from the number one leak proof brand in North America. This is your chance to stock up on NYX's game. Changing leak Proof Underwear the soft, stylish machine washable underwear that handles period sweat and light leaks with total confidence. Millions have made the switch to Knicks and with sizes from extra small to 4 XL and tons of colors and styles, there's something for everyone. But it's not just underwear. Find big savings on revolutionary bras, swimwear and more. From long days to late nights, everything is designed to move with you and keep you comfortable, supported and leak free. Raid the warehouse and try something new or stock up on your next favorites. This sale only happens once a year and ends Monday, July 14th. The best deals go fast, so hurry to nyx.com, that's knix.com save up to 50% now through July 14th.

[Krystal Ball]

Knix.com AOC is tangling again with the party's base parties left. You can put up C3 here. So there was a, there was an amendment. So she writes here, and I'll give you the background she writes here. Marjorie Taylor Greene's amendment does nothing to cut off offensive aid to Israel, nor end the flow of munitions being used in Gaza. Of course, I voted against it here. She's referring to an amendment by Green that, that went after these kind of. Yes, like Thaad and the missile defense program that Israel uses. It got the votes of, I believe it was Rashida Ilhan Omar, Summer Lee in Pittsburgh, and Al Green down in, down in Texas. Those are the only four Democrats that voted against it. So there's a part at the bottom that's important where she says, I remain focused on cutting the flow of U.S. munitions that are being used to perpetuate the genocide in Gaza. And then think about that last line that she said there. So let's put up C4 again. So this is her kind of continuing to respond. She says, Google is free. If you're saying I voted for military funding, you are lying. Receipts attached to drag me from my positions all you want, but lying about them doesn't make you part of the quote Left. If you believe neo Nazis are welcome and operating in good faith, you can have them. Which is kind of a criticism there of Summer Lee and Rashida Taleb and Yelen Omar for voting for the Green amendment and kind of an argument that she would never vote for anything put forward by Green, no matter what. Setting all that aside, in her original statement, she says two things. She says she voted against this because it was defensive in nature. And she also says that Israel is carrying out a genocide. And I think that's just such an impossible thing to square in the same thought. If you do believe that Israel's carrying out a genocide, any support for that is support for that genocide. Even if it's, even if it's just these defensive weapons. Because also the main thing, what are.

[Ryan Grim]

They using the defensive weapons for?

[Krystal Ball]

Right. Hamas is not actually firing rockets at them. Exactly. So it's Yemen is shooting at them to try to get them to stop the genocide. And they have said, if you stop the war on Gaza, Yemen will stop firing missiles. And Iran responded to Israel after Israel attacked Iran.

[Ryan Grim]

Correct.

[Krystal Ball]

So the defensive weapons are so that Netanyahu can carry out another attack on Iran, which he told The Nelk boys, he's gonna do. He said, the war against Iran is not over. You just had their military chief there saying, war against Iran is not over. They're going to try to take out all their ballistic missiles. So they need a replenishing of their defensive weapons to carry out the offensive action that they want to carry out against Yemen. They are killing people by the thousands in Yemen due to malnutrition and due to. They've destroyed the airport there so people can't get medical evacuations, so you can't get aid in. They destroyed the port, so you can't get fuel and aid in. People are dying like crazy in Yemen. And the purpose of the defensive weapons is so that they can carry out those attacks on Yemen and on Iran. That's the part where I think it's very just. It's just impossible to square those two positions. If you believe that that's what they're doing, then you can't support it, even with the defensive weapons.

[Ryan Grim]

What's the bulletproof vest analogy? Oh, yeah, somebody say it, because I think this is very good.

[Krystal Ball]

And I think it was. Kaitlyn Johnson, writer, responded to aoc, and that reply is getting a lot of attention, saying, like, look, I don't support a school shooter, but I just purchased a bulletproof vest for them.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. And again, it collapses on its own logic, because Israeli, the US Defense umbrella in all forms, from the Americans striking the Fordo facility or whatever in Iran to us using guided missile destroyers to defend them to our funding of the Iron Dome, enables Israeli offensive action. If Israel is forced to feel the consequences of its actions, it will fundamentally behave differently. Yes or no? So this is. This is where.

[Krystal Ball]

Probably not attack Iran.

[Unknown]

They would not attack Iraq.

[Ryan Grim]

Never in a million years. They're gonna blow up an Iranian embassy in Damascus. They're gonna overthrow the Damascus government, they're gonna bomb Iran. They're gonna permanently occupy parts of Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank. They're gonna murder Christian and Muslim residents with impunity. They're gonna attack a Catholic church without the U.S. no. Okay. No, no, no, no, no. Never. And that's my point, is that this is why the MTG amendment was courageous, in that they were like, no, we're done. We're done with you. And from this point forward, you bear the consequences of your own actions. I thought that's what a lot of liberals agreed with.

[Krystal Ball]

Or pay for it yourself.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. Or pay for it.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Hell, yeah. You're a rich country, got universal healthcare. You pay for it. Okay. Cash and carry. Just like we. We treated the British der. Lend lease 10 times worse than we treat the country of Israel. We bent them over a barrel and we said, gold on the premises or fuck off. That's basically what we told Winston Churchill. Go read a book about it. Okay. They complained a lot, actually. They're like, please give us credit. We're like, no, it's not happening.

[Krystal Ball]

You're gonna destroy the British Empire. Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Like, yeah. And we like it. All right. Yeah, exactly. And we did.

[Krystal Ball]

We won. Social work organization.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. The point, though, is that there is a way to treat allies in a different way, even when you are selling them weapons. And I don't even think we should do that at this point because of the way that they behave themselves. But, I mean, this entire thing is just a real window, Ryan, into her behavior and posturing, because I think she probably wants to run for Senate, and she thinks that an anti Israel vote like this would come back to bite her. But what's crazy to me is how do you square that in the Zoran Mamdani era? How do you square when he got the most votes ever and he didn't apologize for a damn thing? Stand your ground. Believe in something, and it's. And she wouldn't get punished. I think she would actually get more press out of it. I don't get it.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't even. I don't actually think that this is political calculation. I think what.

[Ryan Grim]

She just believes this.

[Krystal Ball]

I think this is stupid. Yeah. That she believes that the Iron Dome is protecting civilians and that therefore you gotta support the protection of civilians. Yeah. I think it's. I don't think it's. Who knows? You know, none of us even know why we do the things we do. So, like, trying to analyze why somebody else is doing the things they're doing is futile. But I do think that it's genuine rather than cynical, which doesn't make it better. Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

All right, well, I don't know. It's completely missed.

[Krystal Ball]

And I got to run.

[Ryan Grim]

So Sagar's. Ryan's got a time.

[Krystal Ball]

I got to. I'll do the rest thing I got to do. Sagar's got this under control.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm on it, brothers. Don't worry. All right.

[Krystal Ball]

Thank you, guys. Later, virtual pal. See you tomorrow. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want. With paypal. Venmo pay later and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing. There's one platform for all business PayPal open grow today at paypalopen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.

Time for a sofa upgrade? Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices with sofas starting at $699, Anabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas.com Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

It's happening right now. The Knicks annual warehouse sale [e-mail] we're clearing out the warehouse and the savings are big. Save up to 50% on select styles from the number one leak proof brand in North America. This is your chance to stock up on NYX's game changing leak Proof Underwear, the soft, stylish machine washable underwear that handles period sweat and light leaks with total confidence. Millions have made the switch to NYX and with sizes from extra small to 4XL and tons of colors and styles, there's something for everyone. But it's not just underwear. Find big savings on revolutionary bras, swimwear and more. From long days to late nights, everything is designed to move with you and keep you comfortable, supported and leak free. Raid the warehouse and try something new or stock up on your Knicks favorites. This sale only happens once a year and ends Monday, July 14th. The best deals go fast, so hurry to knicks.com that's knix.com save up to 50% now through July 14th knix.com.

[Ryan Grim]

All right, turning now to Epstein, a story which I will handle myself. Which of course if any other time and I had to speak entirely on Epstein, I'd be happy to, but when you're sick, man, it's a tough thing. All right, let's go Ahead and put this up there on the screen from Pam Bondi. So this is breaking news as of right now, and there's actually a lot to say here. This is a new statement from the Deputy Attorney General, Dodd Blanche. The Department of Justice does not shy away from uncomfortable truths, nor from the responsibility to pursue justice wherever the facts may lead. This joint statement by the DOJ and FBI of July 6th remains as accurate today as it was when it was written, namely that in the recent thorough review of the files maintained by the FBI in the Epstein case, no evidence was uncovered that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties. AKA they are saying that there is no blackmail scheme, no conspiracy, no crimes that implicates anybody else. What they continue. President Trump has told us to release all credible evidence. If Ghislaine Maxwell has information about anyone who has committed crimes against the victims, the FBI and the DOJ will hear what she has to say. Therefore, at the direction of the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, I have communicated with counsel for Ms. Maxwell to determine whether she'd be willing to speak with prosecutors from the department. I anticipate meeting with Ms. Maxwell in the coming days. Until now, no administration on behalf of the department has inquired about her willingness to meet with the government. That changes now. Extraordinary things happening in that statement. First and foremost is this. The Deputy Attorney General, the number two at the Justice Department, will be meeting directly, directly with Ghislaine Maxwell and her legal team. That's number one. That almost never happens. Just so you know, the Deputy Attorney General, literally the number two, is gonna be meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell. Number two, according to the Deputy Attorney General in that statement, he is saying at no point has the government ever approached Ghislaine Maxwell to say, what do you know about third party individuals? Are you guys hearing that? So according to this statement, what they are saying is that Ghislaine Maxwell went to trial, right? Obviously, she lost there. She was prosecuted for human trafficking victims, specifically to Jeffrey Epstein. Many, including myself, said that the charges were tailored in such a way to only implicate her and Epstein to put her in jail for the rest of her life. So we can all just move on from it. And that at no point was there ever an opportunity for some of the broader conspiracy to be able to come out in this. What they are saying, though, is that Maxwell was never given that opportunity to actually come forward. I wanna continue, though, and this is part of the reason why we should all be a little bit skeptical, is unfortunately, with Ghislaine Maxwell, you know she has a lot of incentive now at this point and for us to be a little skeptical of what she has to say. Here's a statement from her attorney this morning. Quote, I can confirm that we are in discussions with the government and that Ghislaine will always testify truthfully. We are grateful to President Trump for his commitment to uncovering the truth in this case. She also says before, remember, she was seeking a pardon, quote, he's the ultimate dealmaker. This is about Trump. I'm sure he'd agree that when the United States gives its word, it should keep it. With all the talk about who's being prosecuted and who isn't, it's especially unfair. Ghislaine Maxwell remains in prison based on a promise the US government made and broke. What she's referring to, guys, is according to her, what's so unjust is remember that non prosecution agreement that Epstein entered into in 2007 that covered the immunity for Epstein and for Ghislaine Maxwell, an unindicted co conspirator in the case. Her position is that that illegal non prosecution agreement, according to the court, because it violated the victim's rights then should have given her immunity for all time. And that the government broke its word by offering this sketchy deal to Epstein in the first place. Just so we don't all think Ghislaine Maxwell is necessarily a hero. But here's the question. How much of this is real and how much of it's controlled can we really trust? Cuz let's imagine this scenario. Maxwell comes and meets with the government. The government says, okay, let's make a deal, you know, let's. And a deal. For what though? And to what purpose? Because at this point I think not just Trump, but a lot of other powerful people have a lot of incentive for Maxwell to say, I didn't know anything about anybody. Broader powerful people, it was just me and Jeffrey. That actually is what you would wanna say right now to get a sweetheart deal. No. From the Deputy Attorney General, from the Trump administration. If you start implicating all kinds of quote, third party individuals, then things get a little bit complicated and then what the government can say is, look, we went to Ghislaine, we offered her a deal, she told us it was only her and Jeffrey. It's not a full fledged, quote, investigation. Cuz it doesn't follow any of the money, it doesn't look at any of the intelligence connections, the things that I've detailed now on this show and on other shows now for weeks, specifically about Epstein, the sources of his wealth, Leslie Wexner about Ehud Barak, Leon Black, what was going on with this 1.4 billion in suspicious activity reports coming in and out of Epstein related accounts from four different financial institutions. So there is a high chance of a cover up, actually in the way that this is all being conducted and possibly even on the way to a pardon. Because at this point, if you're Ghislaine and you're looking at the conduct of the Trump administration, would it really behoove you to implicate a bunch of third party individuals or would it be better for you at this point to say, actually it was just me and Jeffrey. Everything else is just completely. Everything else is a, quote, conspiracy theory. My father was never a Mossad asset, even though he got a state funeral in Israel. And we can all just move on very carefully. So that's something very important to say. There's a second very interesting clip here from Tim Dillon, who has revealed now to Alex Jones that he recently had dinner Last week with J.D. vance, the Vice President of the United States, and that the Vice President told Tim Dillon that all of the, quote, thousands of hours of footage was just personal pornography for Jeffrey Epstein's personal use. And it didn't implicate anybody powerful. Here's what he had to say.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The Trump administration had been heavily implicated.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm not going to name names. And so.

[Sagar Enjeti]

But you nailed it when you brought up Netanyahu. So let me, if you've got time.

[Ryan Grim]

Here, I have to. We have all the time in the world.

[Krystal Ball]

I just want to add, when Bondi.

[Ryan Grim]

Said, We have 10,000 hours of video, she said, we have 10,000 hours of video. I had dinner last week with the Vice President. He told me that that was commercial pornography. They do not have videos of any powerful person in a compromising position.

[Krystal Ball]

That's the party line that they're going with.

[Ryan Grim]

If that's the case, why would Pam Bondi call it evidence? Why would she say it's evidence? She's not an idiot. She's the Attorney General.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Why would she say she has files.

[Ryan Grim]

On her desk if none of these implicated anybody? It just feels like they're covering something for sure. So there you go. Now, according to Tim, who recently had dinner with the Vice President, the Vice President told him that actually it's just commercial footage and there's no footage of powerful individuals. Now, that's very interesting because that would actually presume that at the highest levels of the White House, they did review some of the, quote, Epstein files. That's something that the President and his team have denied. Remember they're saying it was just by the FBI and the doj. So at some level, at the highest levels of our political leadership, they did review this stuff and they're saying, hey, don't worry about it. All the footage actually was just commercial pornography for his own personal use. It didn't implicate any higher level people. Doesn't fit necessarily at all right with the fact that there were hidden cameras found in the Virgin Islands and the New York residents and in many of these other places. Perhaps it's not sexual material, but what if it's blackmail material involving business deals or involving intelligence operations? This is just what gets to the whole crux of the matter. According to Tim, he told the Vice President, if you don't release it all, you're done and you're gonna look like you're implicated in a cover up. So these two things just look very, very sketchy if you ask me. And perhaps there's some recognition there at the highest levels of the White House that they actually are making a big mistake. But also at the same time there is some very sketchy behavior in terms of the conduct of Republicans themselves, especially the Congressional Republicans who are basically joining together to make sure there's not a single vote on the House floor about the Epstein files. So let's remember that right now Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie have a joint. I think it's a resolution or an amendment that would for if voted on, would force the release of the Epstein files from Congress. Would basically mandate the administration release any and all information that they currently have. Now let's put this up there on the screen. As Theo Vaughn has pointed out. Why can't we put Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie bill for a vote up this week at Speaker Johnson, at J.D. vance, J.D. vance of course, who appeared on Theo's show. Now Speaker Johnson, when asked about this, says that he will not allow a vote on the House floor ahead of the forthcoming August recess, effectively shutting down any potential vote on the Epstein files going forward. Because he wants to trust the government. Here's what he had to say.

[Krystal Ball]

Here's what I would say about the Epstein files. There is no daylight between the House Republicans, the House and the President on maximum of transparency. He has said that he wants all the credible files related to Epstein to be released. He's asked the the Attorney General to request the grand jury files of the court. All of that is in process right now. My belief is we need the administration to have the Space to do what it is doing. And if further congressional action is necessary or appropriate, then we'll look at that. But I don't think we're at that point right now because we agree with the President.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So, no.

[Ryan Grim]

No vote on this resolution. Let's look at that very, very carefully. So he says specifically that he will shut down any vote on the Epstein files because he wants to, quote, allow the administration the space to deal with the space to deal with what? To release the files that you allegedly support. No. Or to not release all the files or to say that only it's the credible evidence or the, you know, the stuff that is pertinent. And these are all the terms and the definitions of things that matter when you're not actually committed to releasing all the information that you literally said that you would do if you were elected president. And that's really what gets it all down to it. And more importantly, from this point forward, there's actually a piece of procedural news which is totally crazy, is that right now the House of Representatives has effectively been shut down to make sure that there is no vote on the Epstein file. So let me kind of explain this. So what has happened is that they are not allowing any, quote, rules. They will not report a single rule this week for bills. They're shutting down the entire House floor for the week just so they don't allow a vote on the Epstein files. To allow that bill and a vote for people to be able to come together and to vote specifically to release the files. That is the level to which the House Republicans have now moved to shut all this stuff down. That's crazy. So you have here the House Republicans coming together to protect the administration. You have the administration opening up these talks with Ghislaine Maxwell. We'll see what comes out of it. I mean, let's be honest. Like, it looks pretty sketchy, and it looks in particular in the direction of if she were willing to say it, didn't implicate anybody else, that's kind of where I would if I were her. That's how I want my pardon, isn't it? She's gonna spend 20 years in jail otherwise. You've got, apparently, the vice President telling Tim Dillon that they reviewed the footage and it's just all commercial pornography. Doesn't implicate anybody. Broader. But of course, they're ignoring all the financial documentation, all these other files, and all these other things that they, at the time said that a journalist should be willing to look into. Remember whenever they were on the campaign trail or whenever they held previous office. And then you have the current pressure from the government right now going after institutions that have reported here about the Trump Epstein connection. Let's put this one up there. Finally then on the screen from the Wall Street Journal. The White House has actually removed the Wall Street Journal from Scotland press pool as Trump is set to travel there over the Epstein report. So again, it's kind of complicated and we've talked about it a little bit here. The White House press pool is like a select small group of journalists that travels with the President. They go on Air Force One and you kind of work together and you send your reports to the rest of the press and you're kind of the representative of the global press, not necessarily of your own paper. Well, what they've done here is they've actually removed the Wall Street Journal White House reporters who had nothing to do with the story from the press pool over the Epstein story. Now, I mean, they've done this type of stuff before with the Associated Press and the whole Gulf of Mexico thing. I think it's stupid, but it just goes to show the level of freakout from the Trump administration right now against the Journal. I know Crystal and Emily talked about this yesterday, but you've got this weird meeting between J.D. vance and the Murdoch family two days before the Epstein story comes out. Remember, Trump himself said Rupert said he would take care of it in his truth about the story around the letter that was eventually released. You've got all this Trump administration behavior now. You've got the fact that they filed for what, $10 billion of defamation in court. I can't wait for that suit to go forward, by the way, because Trump said, I can't wait to get Rupert Murdoch under oath. I'm like, well, I can't wait to get Trump under oath about this story as well. I hope he fights it all the way to the end. I'm absolutely certain he'll win. Well also they should release the Journal for journalistic purposes at this point. The bound book which allegedly had the letter in it, show everybody what it is. But look, the handling on this, it continues to be incredibly strange, weird. The conduct of the US Government right now just only points in the single of a cover up you can deduce for reasons for yourselves. So with all of that being said, let's turn now to Maha and my guest Dr. Lane Norton to talk about cane sugar, Coke and the seed oils debate.

[Unknown]

Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans. So you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide. And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo, pay later and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing. There's one platform for all business PayPal open grow today at paypalopen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.

Let's be Real Life happens. Kids spill, pets shed and accidents are inevitable. Find a sofa that can keep [e-mail] Starting at just $699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out so you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry free living. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, they're kid proof, pet friendly and built for everyday life. Plus changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want. Neat flexibility Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment. Plus, they're earth friendly and trusted by over 200,000 happy customers. It's time to upgrade to a stress free mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save that's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

It's happening right now. The Nick's Annual Warehouse Sale [e-mail] we're clearing out the warehouse and the savings are big. Save up to 50% on select styles from the number one leak proof brand in North America. This is your chance to stock up on NYX's game changing leak Proof Underwear the soft, stylish machine washable underwear that handles periods, sweat and light leaks with total confidence. Millions have made the switch to Nixon and with sizes from extra small to 4 XL and tons of colors and styles, there's something for everyone. But it's not just underwear. Find big savings on revolutionary bras, swimwear and more. From long days to late nights, everything is designed to move with you and keep you comfortable, supported and leak free. Raid the warehouse and try something new or stock up on your Knicks favorites. This sale only happens once a year and ends Monday, July 14th. The best deals go fast, so hurry to nyx.com/that's knix.com Save up to 50% now through July 14th.

[Ryan Grim]

Knix.com Very excited now to be joined by my friend Dr. Lane Norton. He is and I'm gonna get his full bio correct. PhD in nutritional science, Co founder of the Carbon diet coach nutrition coaching app, a carbon by the way product that I use. And Lane, you and I go way back. But for our purposes here, what I wanted to have you on the show for is to break down all of this discussion that's bubbling up right now to the highest levels of the around seed oil. So more recently and cane sugar coke as well. So let's put this up here on the screen. This is the latest quote Maha victory from Secretary of Health and Human Services Secretary Kennedy endorsing here Steak n Shake who's saying starting August 1st, Steak n Shake will offer Coca Cola with real cane sugar in glass bottles. America deserves the best. They're branding themselves Make America Healthy Again. RFK Jr. S signature slogan. They previously this fast food chain had replaced quote seed oils with beef tallow fries presenting themselves as a healthier option. Now since you are a PhD in nutrition science, you've given hours of content, you've reviewed all of the data. I just want you to break down at a nutritional science level whether this is a quote healthier option for people to be drinking cane sugar coke as opposed to high fructose cone syrup coke, having fries that are cooked in beef tallow versus having fries that are cooked in seed oils.

[Sagar Enjeti]

So you made a good point which is is it healthy compared to. Because that's really what we want to know. And first off, I want to say that I'm glad that people in U.S. government are taking an interest in health and nutrition and promoting health promoting behaviors. Unfortunately, I think people's personal biases are really getting in the way here. And this is something I think with RFK is going on is known as a naturalistic fallacy which is if something occurs in nature it must be better for us. And in some cases that's true, but in some cases we have plenty of man made things. Take whey protein for example, which is an ultra processed food but has been shown to reduce levels of inflammation, improve glucose control, improve I even think levels of liver fat and basically metabolic health. So I think we got to be careful with lumping things into big categories. Now when it comes to replacing high fructose corn syrup sweetened beverages with cane sugar again, the only reason I can think that people would think this is healthier is because cane sugar is natural. Yeah, biochemically there is very little difference between cane sugar and high fructose corn syrup. Cane sugar is sucrose and sucrose is 50% is a, is a disaccharide which is a glucose molecule linked to a fructose molecule. So 50, 50 high fructose corn syrup is 55% fructose and 45% glucose. So if you're telling me that a 5% difference in fructose content is somehow going to change our nation's health, I would say that you're basically putting your energy into stuff that is not going to make a, a darn bit of difference. And I'm looking at right now dozens of random, randomized control trials in humans where when they substitute high fructose corn syrup in a one to one ratio with other sugars, there's zero outcomes that are different in terms of body weight, body fat, liver fat, metabolic health, insulin resistance, because it's still sugar. And even if you want to go down that road, I mean, people make a big deal out of sugar. But the reality is our sugar intake has actually declined over the last 20 years while obesity has continued to rise. And when you look at isocaloric, so when I say isocaloric, I mean in feeding trials, when they control total calories, but they substitute in other forms of carbohydrate for sugar, again, you don't really see a difference in metabolic health outcomes or body weight or body fat. There was even one randomized control trial that was very well controlled. They provided all the food to participants. They looked at over 100 grams of sugar intake per day versus about 10 same total calories. Protein, carbohydrate fat intake was still the same. And they found that both groups lost basically the exact same amount of body fat. And all their blood markers improved in both groups. Now, I'm not saying that eating sugar or high fructose corn syrup is a good idea, right? Because people, it is not satiating and people over consume it. And so, you know, if you're going to eat a lot of sugar, it's not like people drink a Coke and they go, well, that was 40 grams of carbohydrates, so I'm going to skip pasta tonight. No, they just take it in on top of whatever else they're eating. So I think the real damaging messaging here is that somehow because you substituted in cane sugar, you haven't reduced overall calories, that this is healthier. It's not. There is no evidence this is going to make an actual difference for people. And I think the uncomfortable truth, and I default to something called Occam's razor, which basically the lay interpretation is when all things are equal, the simplest answer is usually true. The average calorie intake in the United States of America is 3540 per day. And the average physical activity is less than 20 minutes per day. And that is why we have a health crisis. And people don't want to deal with that uncomfortable truth and the responsibility and accountability that comes along with it.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. And I think that's such an important point. And Lane, every time I try to bring attention to this and to be clear, I agree with the message, make America healthy again. I think it's great. But I'm told very often that cane sugar Coke is better and drinking Diet Coke and that it's not about the calorie saga, it's all about the ingredients. And so I would love for you to basically get into that, because they are rejecting not only a message or a theory of thermodynamics, not the law of thermodynamics, not theory about calories in and calories out. They're accepting a framework in which the quote, chemicals, the pesticides, the ingredients are themselves responsible for the health crisis that we find ourselves in America and not the. What is it that he said? The 3,400 calories per day that the average American intake.

[Sagar Enjeti]

3,500 plus.

[Ryan Grim]

Okay, I would love for. Please respond to that argument. Why in their framework, cane sugar Coke is better than Diet Coke, then they.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Simply have not read the human randomized control trials. I mean, here's the argument against diet soda. Well, these compounds in it are carcinogenic. No, no, they're not. These are some of the most studied compounds in the history of mankind. Can you find rodent studies where they feed 10,000 times the dose of what you could ever get and they see weird things happen? Yeah, well, try feeding 10,000 times the dose of anything and see if weird things happen. Yeah, I'm not surprised that weird stuff happens. And the question is, I mean, I do this in my videos all the time. I'm like, if only we had human randomized control trials where they look. Oh, wait, we do. So if we look at. If they tell people to drink diet soda in place of regular soda, what happens? And very consistently in the research literature, people lose significant amounts of body weight. There was actually a very recent 52 week randomized control trial where they had people either drink soda or diet soda or water, I actually believe. And what they found was, I think on average, people lost about six and a half kilograms. Okay, so like 14 pounds in freedom units just by subbing in diet soda. And they actually lost a little bit more than the group that drank water. It wasn't a big difference, but it was a difference. Now I'm not saying if you like drinking water, you don't have to drink diet soda. That's not what I'm saying. And I'm not saying that diet soda has some sort of magical fat burner in it that makes it better than water. But people who are used to drinking soda, if you replace that with either water or diet soda, what that says to me is the people drinking water probably were seeking out a sweet taste somewhere else because they weren't getting it from that. Whereas the group that was drinking diet soda, they felt more satiated because they satisfied that sweet taste. And then if we look in the meta analyses, we basically see that diet soda, there was one looking at glycemic load, because some of these people will say, well, diet sodas release insulin and et cetera, et cetera. No, they don't. They don't. In fact, the conclusion of a recent meta analysis of dozens of human randomized control trials basically said that diet soda basically had the same effects as water. Okay. And we do see what, because people lose weight, not because of anything magic, but people's HBA1C goes down, which is a marker for insulin sensitivity. And then like even going to the. You brought up the seed oils thing too. And I do want to touch on that.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, we're going to get to that. Don't worry. Yeah, yeah.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Oh, okay. Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, when you're looking at the diet soda stuff, people say it's carcinogenic. It's not. Over 80% of the research studies say that it's not carcinogenic. And the 10% that say maybe and the other 10% that say yes, it's always either weak epidemiology association data or it's in animal studies giving super high doses. And I'm even thinking about one epidemiology study from Spain. It was 100,000 people, got a lot of press about five years ago. And this is where the news will report certain headlines. And either they don't understand science, they don't read the full paper, or they just don't care and they just want to get people scared. So this study showed that at no intake of aspartame, that was the reference group compared to the reference group. The group consuming a low or moderate amount of aspartame had a relative risk increase of just under 20% for cancer. Now, when I say relative risk increase, I don't mean you go from a 5% absolute risk to a 25% relative risk increase means you go from 5 to 6%. Because 20% of 5% is 1%. I want to frame that appropriately for people because they don't understand relative risk either. A 20% relative risk increase. But why didn't they bring up the group that was the high group, like the high intakes of aspartame? Because the risk actually went down compared to the moderate or low group. Now, please, I want anybody out there to let me know what is carcinogenic at a low dose but not carcinogenic at a high dose. Somebody please explain that to me. And so again, these weak epidemiology studies, I'm sorry, I just don't buy them. And they're not supported by any real hard human data.

[Ryan Grim]

This is very important. Now let's get to the seed oils thing again. I have watched this stuff run like a craze across the Internet to the point where I have people in my own life who are explicitly going out of their way to avoid seed oils. I can live with that if it's an Internet phenomenon. But now I'm watching the United States government and I want to be clear. It's not that I'm against making people healthy, using government policy or whatever to try and encourage it. What I'm concerned about in this case is the Secretary of Health and Human Services saying this is a healthy meal. Drinking cane sugar, coke, beef tallow, fries and a cheeseburger. Or for example, lately there is a new effort by the government lane to get lay's chips to replace seed oils with avocado oil. And that's the thing, is that it's a presumption that the seed oils and not the caloric density of this highly palatable chip itself that people are eating is the problem. I don't want. It's like the fat free craze of the 1990s, right? Where people go to the grocery store and they say, oh, it's fat free and that's why it's, quote, healthy. Well, that created a permission structure for people to continue to up their caloric dose. And I say this because I'm susceptible to it until I started looking at your content and others. I'm the person buying and reading the influencers and all this other stuff while struggling with my weight for over 20 years. Right. And so you've looked at the data on the seed oils. Let's go ahead and put this up there on the screen. And you look specifically at the data replacing seed oils with canola. And I'll let you read out the rest of these with saturated fat. Tell us in detail here what the data shows us about replacing seed oils with saturated fat.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. So this is what's really important is if you're talking about adding something into the diet or removing something from the diet. The question one of my favorite political commentators was Thomas Sowell and I always liked one of the things he said is if somebody's making a claim, your first question should be compared to what? So, okay, seed oils are bad compared to what? Because I agree, like one of the biggest sources of added calories over the last few decades is added oils. In that way, seed oils have contributed to the obesity crisis because they're calorically dense and they're in a lot of ultra processed foods and people cut them out and they say, well, I feel better. Well, you stopped eating junk food. It wasn't the seed oils. You lost weight. It wasn't the fact that you were not eating seed oils. It was the fact that you stopped eating so many damn calories.

[Krystal Ball]

Calories.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Now with the seed oil data specifically, if we replace in a one to one ratio with saturated fat. So at worst for seed oils, you get a neutral effect on metabolic health like liver fat, insulin sensitivity, you get inflammation, you get a neutral effect at worst. And a lot of studies show that replacing saturated fat with polyunsaturated fats from seed oils like canola oil improve inflammation, reduce liver fat, they improve insulin sensitivity, they improve endothelial function. And then if we look at the long term data, now this is cohort data, which is a form of epidemiology, but the reality is you can't do 30 year nutrition randomized control trials. It's just impossible to do. Nobody is going to stick to a diet for that long. Unfortunately, as I know as a coach, people just have really poor adherence. But if we look at the cohort data, if we look at people who consume more seed oils versus people who consume more saturated fat, what do we see when it comes to mortality, heart disease and cancer? What we see very consistently in the literature is people who consume seed oils or plant oils in place of saturated fat live longer, they have lower rates of cardiovascular disease and some studies show lower rates of cancer and some studies don't. So I'm not sure if that's a real effect, but certainly for heart disease and mortality. And again, this is one of those things. When the anti seed oil people get in debates with me, the best studies they can cite are studies that sort of reducing saturated fat does not improve health outcomes. And I'm like, oh wait, wait, didn't we just move the Goalpost, though, because you're saying seed oils are bad. Now you're just saying, well, saturated fat isn't bad. But if you're going to argue that seed oils are bad, if you are going to make that argument, then you have to argue that saturated fat is bad for you. Because at every metric, it is either a neutral or worse effect by consuming more saturated fat in place of seed oil. So this idea that you're going to put beef tallow into fries and that's going to make people healthier, it's absolute lunacy. It's ridiculous. And I actually got invited to go on this maha trip to Congress last year and I declined it. And the reason I declined it was because I knew this was going to happen. What was going to happen was they were going to ban some random ingredients in food.

[Ryan Grim]

Artificial food. Yeah. Food dye.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And nobody was going to actually want to deal with. With the reality, which is people eat too much and move too little. Because that is a very, very difficult problem to solve because it is multifaceted. It involves socioeconomic things. It involves the way our whole society is set up. And hey, to be fair, I don't know what the answer is. I don't know what the answer is, but I think coddling people and lying to them and telling them, well, your fries, your ultra processed sources of refined sugar and fat are now fried in beef tallow rather than seed oils. Okay? Now, steak and shake is healthy. Like, get out of here. Like, it is absolute freaking. It is a distraction from the real problem. And quite frankly, you can tell it makes me sick that this is getting so much play because it is literally going to do absolutely nothing other than make a few politicians feel good about themselves, pat themselves on the back, and steak and shake's gonna get some free press.

[Ryan Grim]

That's actually what I'm worried about, is that steak and shit people. There are a lot of good meaning people who trusted RFK Jr or trust MA or whatever, they're gonna go and they're gonna get that Coke and they're gonna be like, this is healthier, babe. I'm telling you. You know, they said, make America Healthy has been endorsed by the Secretary for Health and Human Services. People don't have all the time in the world to read your work or to listen to your videos or watch tips, interview. They put their trust in this person. The president appointed him and he's using the full force right now, the US Government, to basically prop this stuff up. And I think that's the last thing I wanna kinda get into you with about what the evidence points us in the direction because again, it's not just about cancer. The core claim is that the artifact. I remember Froot Loops rfk, I think he was on our show and he's talking about Fruit Loops. He's like, in Canada, they don't have food dye, Right. And I checked the macros and actually they're basically the same, the macros in terms of the sugar for Fruit Loops. So, like the core, you know, proposition being put forward is that the problem with American Fruit Loops is the fact that there's food dye in it as opposed to all of this sugar. Right. And that you're feeding this to your child for breakfast and whether that is a healthy choice or not. So then it gives companies the easiest out in the world of like, oh, sure, we'll put it in avocado oil, whatever. Yeah, maybe our marginal cost will go up, but then people will actually buy more of it because they think it's healthy. As opposed to what you just talked about here. It's all about this calories. And, you know, that's really the final thing I'd write for you to get into is I was talking with Andrew Huberman, our mutual friend, about how GLP1 drugs kind of did prove the proposition of calories, Calories in, calories out. Right. It's like people take the GLP1 drug, Ozempic is what I'm referring to for the layperson, and they stopped eating more. They not only lost weight, they got health. All their biomarkers are trending in a much better direction, especially for people who are obese. It didn't have anything to do with pesticide, but I know a lot of people on Ozempic. They eat a ton of junk food. I went to Japan, one of the healthiest countries in the world. Do you know how much deep fried food that they eat in seed oil? They're all skinny, they look pretty good, and they live a long time. And a lot doesn't seem to have anything to do with seed oil. Has a lot to do with caloric intake. So that's the final thing I'd like to tee you up on.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I mean, it's the. I'm not saying that calories are the only thing that matter. I want to be very clear. There are some other things that matter, but in terms of the big rocks that you can pick up to put your focus into, it's the biggest thing that matters, at least for metabolic health and losing weight. I mean, you want to talk about Something being toxic, too many calories are toxic because at a certain point, you only really have a few places to dispose of excess glucose and lipid. And that is in liver can store a little bit of glycogen and fat, muscle can store some glycogen and fat. But your big, biggest depot is your adipose tissue. But your adipocytes, your fat cells can only reach a certain size, about 100 microns in diameter a piece, before they become essentially non viable. Where now you've run out of places to put it into, and now it starts backing up into the bloodstream. And that's why you have elevated blood glucose, blood lipids in people who have type 2 diabetes and compromised insulin sensitivity. And so what are you going to do? You got to make space somewhere where your body can make more fat cells, but that it never does it at a rate that can catch up to the excess lipid and glucose that's in the bloodstream. And so if you just exercise, just exercise, okay, you don't even have to lose weight. But 16 weeks of resistance training in obese men with type 2 diabetes was shown to improve insulin sensitivity by sensitivity by 45%.

[Krystal Ball]

Wow.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Okay. Yeah, we see, we saw in some of our, in the lab, I was in, in graduate school lab of Don Lehman at University of Illinois. He was doing a human randomized control trial in women and basically saw people's blood markers when they lost just like 10, 15 pounds, they saw them start to resolve almost immediately. You don't need to do a ton of exercise or lose a ton of weight to begin to get metabolically healthy. It will happen relatively quickly. That is your body's natural state. And honestly, it takes pushing it past a really ridiculous point to get to where we are. But that's where we are because you can not only in the 1950s, we had ultra processed foods, we had cakes, cookies, but you had to go to the bakery or you had to make it yourself. Now you don't even have to wait. You can just get on doordash, have somebody pick it up from the circle K and bring it to your house. So these are the problems we're dealing with. And you mentioned it, for 50 years, fat loss research focused on metabolism. How do we speed people's metabolism up? And people who are obese, well, they got to have slow metabolisms. Or people with type 2 diabetes, they got to have slow metabolisms. Not only does the research not support that people with type 2 diabetes or people who are obese have, if anything, faster metabolisms than people who are lean when they actually put them in a metabolic chamber and measure them and oh, if calories don't matter, isn't it interesting when we put people in metabolic ward trials where they're basically in food jail and they have to eat what the researchers give them, they all lose weight. Wow, Magic. Somehow, you know, and then people will say, well, you know, you can eat so low that your metabolism slows down and all this. Yeah, all these concentration camp photos of people who were obese because they didn't eat enough. Like, come on, get out of here. This is all just an excuse for people to shirk personal responsibility because calories in, calories out. The thing people don't like about it is the inherent truth that there is personal responsibility in this. And the GLP1 mimetics, as you mentioned, for 50 years we focused on metabolism and then for the last 10 years we focused on appetite. And what happened? I mean, the research data that's coming out now basically says these GLP1s are stopping obesity in its tracks and reversing it. And in fact, food companies are actually really worried because people are consuming less calories Now. So these GLP1s, they don't increase metabolic rate, they don't do anything special? Well, they do something special other than they are the most powerful appetite suppressants known to man. And if we look at the difference between obese people and lean people, it is not on the metabolism side, it is on the appetite side. People who are obese or obese people prone, they tend to get more of a reward from food. They tend to not have the same sensitivity to satiety signals as lean people. And they also tend to dissipate less energy through spontaneous movement compared to lean people. Just to explain what that is briefly, you have a certain amount of movement you do without even thinking about it, like fidgeting what I'm doing with my hands right now, this would be considered non exercise activity thermogenes. This postural movement, those little bitty movements actually add up quite a bit over the course of a day. And we have seen very clear research going all the way back to the early 90s showing that people who are obese resistant phenotype essentially that if they overeat, they actually tend to just spontaneously without realizing it or intentionally doing it, they spontaneously increase their physical activity to compensate for it. Whereas people who are obese prone don't tend to do that.

[Ryan Grim]

Got it. Lane, this is so, so helpful. Last word from you. Where can people find your new podcast and all of your work so you.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Can find me as Biolane on all social media platforms. My website's biolane.com and my new podcast is the Dr. Lane Norton Podcast. I hope you guys go check it out if you want. No bs, straight shooting truth. I give it to it straight without much frills.

[Ryan Grim]

He certainly does and that's why he is the goat of all of them. Thank you very much sir for joining us. We appreciate you man. That's right. And he's ripped. That's the other thing. Ripped with no steroids, no drugs, all natural, the hard way. And he actually tells people how to do it. It's not easy to say it's not easy to do it, but you at least show us the way that it can be done. Thank you very much sir. We appreciate you.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Thanks buddy.

[Ryan Grim]

Thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate you. We will have a great show for everybody tomorrow with counterpoints and then we'll see you all then.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Football is back. Let's go baby. On July 26th and 27th, teams across the league take the field for Back.

[Ryan Grim]

Together weekend presented by YouTube TV.

[Sagar Enjeti]

With two from full days of practices.

[Krystal Ball]

Player interviews and behind the scenes access.

[Ryan Grim]

It's a can't miss NFL reunion. Back Together Weekend presented by YouTube TV. July 26th and 27th. Go to NFL.comBackTogetherWeekend for more information.

[Unknown]

Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of payments. PayPal customers worldwide and your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo pay later and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing. There's one platform for all business. PayPal open grow today at paypalopen.com loans subject to approval in available locations.

[Ryan Grim]

Bubba Wallace here from 2311 Racing.

[Krystal Ball]

Funny thing about being fast. You end up waiting a lot.

[Ryan Grim]

First to show up first in line, then just waiting. Me, I rev up. Jumbo casino with over 200 social casino games. No slow lanes here. Why sit around when you can spin? I'm already racing. Your turn play for [e-mail] let's Chumba.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Sponsored by Chumba Casino.

[Ryan Grim]

No purchase necessary.

[Sagar Enjeti]

VGW Group voidware prohibited by Law 21.

[Krystal Ball]

Terms and conditions apply.

[Ryan Grim]

This is an iHeart podcast.