← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
7/2/26: DSA Dem Party Takeover, Tucker MTG New Party, McConnell Found Unconscious
00:50:23
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- [00:00]
Krystal Ball
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I
- [00:09]
Saagar Enjeti
don't trust much of anything.
- [00:12]
NBC News Announcer
It's the rage bait.
- [00:15]
Krystal Ball
It feels like it's trying to divide people.
- [00:19]
Saagar Enjeti
We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.
- [00:25]
NBC News Announcer
NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America Summer is
- [00:36]
Orderly Meds Advertiser
here at Orderly Meds. We know this time is a reminder that life is full of new beginnings. Whether you're celebrating the nice weather, starting a new chapter, planning a vacation, or simply looking ahead to what's next, this season can be the perfect time to invest in yourself and your health. If you've struggled with weight loss and are curious about GLP1 medications, orderly meds can help you learn about your options. Through a simple virtual process, you can connect with licensed medical professionals who can determine and whether treatment may be appropriate for you. Getting started is fast, convenient and happens online from the comfort of home. This summer, consider a new approach to feeling your best. Visit orderlymeds.com podcast to learn more. That's orderlymeds.com podcast orderlymeds.com podcast because every new season is an opportunity to take the next step forward, compounded medications are not FDA approved, eligibility required and determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details.
- [01:35]
NBC News Announcer
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- [02:08]
Saagar Enjeti
Hey guys, Sager and Crystal here.
- [02:10]
Krystal Ball
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
- [02:17]
Saagar Enjeti
This is the only place where you
- [02:18]
Michael Lang
can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [02:23]
Krystal Ball
So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [02:34]
Saagar Enjeti
We need your help to build the
- [02:35]
Michael Lang
future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com
- [02:42]
Krystal Ball
so as you guys know, the left wing of the Democratic Party. Not just a few more victories, big ones in Colorado this week, including with Mala Kiros, political newcomer she was inspired to run after she got fired from her job as a lawyer for speaking out with regards to Palestine. She unseated a 30 year incumbent in Diana Deget. Truly astonishing, someone who has been in Congress longer than Malat Kiros has been alive. Let's take a look at a little bit of her victory speech.
- [03:10]
Saagar Enjeti
We are winning from coast to coast,
- [03:14]
Orderly Meds Advertiser
from every level of office.
- [03:16]
Knix Advertiser
We are taking back our party and our country.
- [03:24]
Krystal Ball
So who are the people behind these victories? Who are the voters that are making these big wins for the left happen? Joining us now is Michael Lang. He is the author of the Narrative wars substack and he digs deep into these coalitions, especially in New York City, where the character of the coalitions has really been disputed and become the sort of Narrative War is a perfect title for what is going on with regard to who is actually voting for these candidates. Michael, great to see you.
- [03:51]
Michael Lang
Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks.
- [03:53]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, of course, of course. So I feel that the critique of the DSA has become a bit confused. Some feel that it is too white in college, just college educated white gentrifiers. Some like Stephen Miller, Jesse Waters feel that it is too many third Worldists, as they put it, too many black and brown people and we let in too many immigrants. And that's what's going on here. You actually dug into the numbers so that we can deal in facts and reality. Let's put C3 up on the screen. This was your headline When Narratives Meet Facts about specifically the victories of Claire Valdez and Darieliza Chevalier in New York City. What did you find about these particular winning coalitions for two DSA candidates?
- [04:39]
Michael Lang
Yeah, I mean, I think there's plenty of variables that go into one, support for socialism or progressive values, things like that. But when you kind of strip everything away, it's not necessarily race. It's not even college education. It's not even sometimes renters versus homeowners. It's just a kind of a proxy war for age. And this was kind of the story of the Mamdani coalition in New York City last year. You know, there was a lot that was made of his kind of lack of support among black voters in the Democratic primary last year. But that was just a function of kind of the age of that electorate. He did very well with white, Hispanic and South Asian voters. But those Democrats were much younger. And you see even, you know, in the cases of Claire Valdez and Darieliza Avila Chevalier, you know, they're not just winning white voters or white voters under 50, they're winning voters of all races under 50. And again you to win an election, in Claire Valdez's case by 20 points, you know, in that North Brooklyn, western Queens commie corridor, to win, to defeat, you know, a 10 year incumbent in the 13th congressional district, which is more renters than any other district in America, you can't really build the winning coalitions as they did if you're just again, relying on like a very thin slice of, you know, college educated, more white collar professionals, things like that.
- [06:05]
Saagar Enjeti
So part of your analysis was super interesting as well, that even with Esplanade, it was pretty close with Hispanic voters over 50. So still, I think esports still won, but barely. Right. Like those numbers started to become really, really close.
- [06:21]
Michael Lang
Yeah, I mean, that was another kind of shocking piece of digging into it more because again, you know, he is the kind of the, a Dominican political trailblazer here in Upper Manhattan in the Bronx. And I mean, again, in those communities, he did do quite well, I would imagine, again, particularly with voters under 50 and voters over 50. But there are also many Hispanic voters who live in that district who are not, who are not Dominican, they're Puerto Rican, they're Mexican. And I think that's where he really struggled. Because take a neighborhood like East Harlem for instance, which again is, is younger and is kind of outside of his base, but still very Hispanic. That was a place where Dariel Issa was able to do very well. But then again, you know, Washington Heights in the Bronx, older places, you know, he kind of held on, but he still didn't really get the margins that he needed out of his core base of support. And again, it points to this age polarization that we've discussed so much.
- [07:19]
Krystal Ball
You have a quote in your piece. You say Claire Valdez won every age bracket and racial group. She won the young under 50 by a landslide and the old 50 plus by a comfortable margin. So even as you find that the most dramatic divides are around age. And sure enough, if you look at the numbers, the younger you are, the more likely, more likely you were to support a DSA candidate. But it seems that they're even making inroads with older voters, with voters that in previous cycles would have been very unlikely to vote for a DSA candidate.
- [07:52]
Michael Lang
Of course. Yeah. And I mean, I think that's kind of a testament to, you know, the close, the decade plus of political organizing that DSA has been able to do in New York City, you know, and again, you know, this is something, this is kind of a theme of my writing. Ideology, I think matters a lot. But also the voters kind of relationships to the candidates, the institutions they represent. And just kind of DSA and Mamdani now becoming these widely viewed and in the case of New York City, widely liked institutions. That does create a greater familiarity with older voters. And again also this, you know, when you're the Claire Valdez campaign and you knock over 300,000 doors, you basically do outreach to every real grassroots outreach to every Democrat in the 7th Congressional District. You know, that's kind of the margins that you manifest basically. And it's, you know, for again, there was a lot of talk about, you know, oh, you know, Reynoso campaign, things like that. They've been there for longer. They're the ones more rooted in the community. But they were essentially out organized. And again, this is, but you know, 300,000 doors is a tremendous number, things like that. But it was kind of the culmination of, I would say a decade of work kind of going into that.
- [09:10]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, let's go into the racial dynamics because they're getting a lot of attention from places like Fox News. So we'll roll here. C. Here's a rabbi complaining about the whiteness of the crowd at the Milot Kiros victory celebration. This is a VO, folks. We can play a C2 so you can see what Rabbi Pipko is responding to. And then let's actually go ahead and flip to C1. This is ASAT. This is Melak Kairos talking about the victory after winning. So you can compare videos. We are winning from coast to coast from every level of office.
- [09:53]
Knix Advertiser
We are taking back our party and our country.
- [10:01]
Saagar Enjeti
Lots of enthusiasm in that video. So tell us, I mean, here's also Jesse Watters. Let's roll Jesse Waters here, C4. Jesse Waters is complaining. These two things are existing at the same time and they don't totally make sense. So Jesse Waters complaining about the racial composition.
- [10:18]
NBC News Announcer
Crazy communists to right wing tough guys. Is that how America is supposed to be? Because that's the way it looks. These people don't believe in borders, capitalism, our founding fathers, they're here to steal, punish us and then throw around welfare. This is a third world takeover. This is what happens when you import the third world. Did you know that New York City is 70% non white, 40% foreign born, 50% of the apartments, they don't even speak English, not even their first language. These three women who Mandani endorsed weren't even born in New York City, weren't raised in New York City. They're carpet baggers. Carpetbaggers, Jessica. And everyone's talking about, like, oh, Mandami, oh, you got all this juice. Like, he's this, like, harmless novice politician on a hot streak. This guy is trouble. This guy is a Trojan horse. And communism is going to take over the Democratic Party, and then we're going to have to beat it, because you can't do anything else besides beat it to a pulp.
- [11:29]
Saagar Enjeti
So, Michael, what we see there is the right not knowing whether they should say DSA voters are too white or not white enough. So help us parse what the actual composition of the DSA coalition looks like from Colorado to New York City.
- [11:44]
Michael Lang
Yeah, I mean, I think you've seen in kind of how people have responded to this, that they're responding in a way in which it's like, I don't really know what I'm up against. I mean, I think, again, first and foremost, the DSA and the Democratic Socialist Coalition, it is very young. It's very millennial heavy shout out to you guys. Right? Best generation, probably.
- [12:08]
Krystal Ball
Definitely.
- [12:09]
Michael Lang
Right. But it's also, you know, again, heavily indexed towards renters. You know, again, it's very difficult for younger people, again, particularly in these urban areas, to own an apartment, much less a home. I mean, again, very college educated. That was another big thread kind of between Colorado 1 and New York 7. It's like lots of millennials, very high percentage of renters and very College educated, like 90th percentile and above. So it's kind of, you know, those three things kind of mixing together. And. And I think that you put. You put those ingredients together, it's like very potent, you know, potent factors to kind of organize politically. And again, you're seeing also as, you know, kind of civic institutions and those civic bonds that I think for, again, most of the 20th century kind of held society get together as those are fraying. You see, organizations like DSA kind of fill the void, not just in terms of providing people an organizing home, but also real social bonds, friendship. It's like kind of a collective, like a shared principles and interests and things like that. And again, as these organizations have grown, as they've won more campaigns, they're also more embedded in not just community, but in government, too. And that also builds trust and grows. And then you have an avatar like Soran Mamdani that can kind of take that vision to a grander scale and introduce Even more people to kind of what it means.
- [13:46]
Krystal Ball
I think it's very unique that Zoran was able to transfer his coalition and Obama wasn't able to do that. Trump has not been able to do that. So it speaks to that level of organizing and I think also a very cohesive vision that Zoran has that people can. And also his orientation is very communal. You know, that's something he talks about a lot where he's not. Even though he is this incredibly charismatic leader. It's not just all about him, it's about the ideas about what he's doing for New York. So when people see Daria Lisa, she's Zoran's candidate, that means something to them. But the other thing that I wanted to ask you about, Michael, is to project this down a bit into the future. You know, Bernie Sanders ran into the buzzsaw of like older black voters in the south in both of his presidential campaigns. And I think part of the freak out from the Dem establishment right now is a realization that their assumption that these left wing values and candidates would only ever appeal to first young white voters and then all multiracial young voters, and then now, okay, the older white voters are also voting for them and now they're making inroads with, with older multiracial coalition. Their assumption that the coalition would permanently stay stuck in a way that it was not a winning one. I think those are proving pretty faulty. So what does that look like going forward for the possibilities within the Democratic Party?
- [15:12]
Michael Lang
I mean, again, late Tuesday night, early Wednesday morning, that was the question everyone was asking is like, how can you really take this national. And I think, I mean, certainly it seems like the macro political conditions of Trump 2.0 have lined up very well in 2025, 2026, and I would suspect 2028. I mean, it's just also like, look, is the Democratic Party New York City? Not necessarily. Is it Denver? Not exactly either. But the party is getting younger, more diverse, more college educated in its.
- [15:45]
Krystal Ball
Well, is it Maine to the left, is it Michigan where Abdullah Syed is winning?
- [15:50]
Michael Lang
The truth is that it's probably all of these things combined, right? Quite literally and figuratively. But it's also the Democratic primary electorate is also getting a little more urbanized, things like that. And I think that. Does it mean that Zoran Mamdani copycat wins in 28? I'm not sure. But it does mean that certain parts of the mass field organizing the kind of the media or, sorry, the, how do I say this, like the visual articulation of like A narrative about affordability, about kind of your micro position in the economy, but also how it relates to these greater forces like oligarchy and corporatocracy, things like that. It's kind of blending all of that together. And I mean, I do think, though, that to your point, the greater establishment panic in reaction to Tuesday, it is. It's like a soft acknowledgement that they have lost kind of the next generation. And that next generation is increasingly, like, asserting themselves far before they were ever, like, supposed to.
- [17:00]
Krystal Ball
Yeah.
- [17:00]
Michael Lang
And that, I think, represents a real threat.
- [17:03]
Krystal Ball
Let me also float this. I'm just thinking this through in real time, but one of the ways that the establishment Democrats were able to beat back the Bernie Sanders insurgency was. Was by a weaponization of identity politics. And, you know, Hillary Clinton really is the person who sort of like, introduces this particular strain of wokeism into the Democratic Party when she says, oh, breaking up the big banks isn't gonna end racism. And so that was. It was very. It was pretty successful. And that type of politics has, I think, been fairly discredited and is certainly not as central in the Democratic Party now as it once was. So, for example, you have this incredibly diverse group of candidates who are trailblazers, who are running and winning as DSA candidates. But that's not the center or the focus of why you should vote for them. And I think that that also is helping to create the possibility of a broader coalition. Because underneath it all, like, yeah, if you're renters, you have a series of similar concerns, whether you're, like, young and college educated and saddled with student debt and very limited job prospects, or whether you are someone who is older, who is struggling with the economy in the way that most. There are a lot of universalist principles at stake here that bind these groups together much more than create differences between them.
- [18:23]
Michael Lang
Yeah. And I think to kind of add to what you said, the electability narrative is also, I think, been used to really hurt progressive and left candidates. I especially felt that in 2020. But that narrative is complete, you know, kind of completely exploded with KAMALA Harris in 2024 and Hillary Clinton. And so I think that's also why, you know, it almost feels like every Tuesday we go to a. An even more higher stakes election. That's where if someone like Abdul El Sayed or Graham Platner can win in Michigan or win in Maine, that would really, again, I think, strike a significant blow to that narrative, because I do think that there are a lot of more, quote, unquote, conventional, traditional Democrats who had been very moved by electability. We just want someone who can win things like that who are now kind of seeing things far differently given the position that we're in.
- [19:17]
Krystal Ball
Michael, thank you so much for breaking down your analysis. Everybody should go subscribe to the substack. It is called narrative wars. And the level of detailed analysis that you do in New York City, I mean it really is block by block is really invaluable. Yeah, it's great to see those kind of numbers. It's really helped my understanding of what the dynamics there on the ground and also your love of the city comes through in every post, which I appreciate too.
- [19:40]
Michael Lang
That means a lot. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [19:43]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, our pleasure. We'll see you again soon. I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I
- [19:51]
Saagar Enjeti
don't trust much of anything.
- [19:54]
Michael Lang
It's the rage bait.
- [19:56]
Krystal Ball
It feels like it's trying to divide people.
- [20:00]
Saagar Enjeti
If we got clear facts, maybe we
- [20:03]
Krystal Ball
could calm down a bit.
- [20:04]
Marjorie Taylor Greene
Little little
- [20:06]
NBC News Announcer
NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
- [20:16]
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- [21:14]
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- [22:15]
Saagar Enjeti
Yesterday, both Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson floated the idea of working on a third party, third party. Let's take a listen here to Marjorie Taylor Greene on with Piers Morgan discussing her plans for potentially launching something to compete with the Republican and Democratic parties.
- [22:32]
Michael Lang
But is there a chance that Tucker, and maybe with support of people like
- [22:36]
Saagar Enjeti
yourself, could you see him making a run?
- [22:39]
Krystal Ball
I mean, is there a, is there
- [22:40]
Saagar Enjeti
a new splinter version of the Republicans
- [22:44]
Michael Lang
that could take over the party?
- [22:46]
Marjorie Taylor Greene
You know, I haven't had that direct conversation with Tucker. I know a lot of people are speculating that. And I can tell you right now, Tucker Carlson would be a great threat to both parties because there's many Americans that are very independent that would support him, but there's also Republican voters and Democrat voters that would support him. So I would say he's a very credible threat. There is a group of us that have literally fought the system. And I think there's a group of us that if we decide to align, we could launch a true America focused party that doesn't fall into the traps of Democrats and Republicans, but could align some serious players from the right and the left and move forward. But Piers, I'm also very realistic because I was in the system. I've served in Congress, I've run campaigns. I know what it takes. It's difficult to launch a third party. So the reality is this isn't something that gets off the ground in just a couple of campaign cycles. This is a movement that has to be developed and would take time to develop. I'm not sure where that is right now, but I am in talks with people and there are serious conversations happening.
- [24:10]
Saagar Enjeti
Okay, so she says she's in talks with people and there are serious conversations happening now. Meanwhile, separately, Tucker Carlson, an interview he did with with the Columbia Journalism Review posted yesterday, wherein he talked about this as well. The reporter asked, are you interested in aligning yourself with other anti war voices? He says, I do know what really matters is war and finance. Where does the money come from, where does it go and who gets killed? And on those questions. The parties are in lockstep solidarity with each other. That's not a democracy, that's a one party state posing as a democracy and it needs to be broken. And there's going to be a third party and I'm going to do everything I can to bring that about. He goes on to say, that's the lesson of the life last two and a half months. To me, if you vote for Trump and you still wind up in a regime change war. If Chuck Schumer is strongly behind Trump's foreign policy, which he is, then we need options or else let's just give up and be ruled by the most unscrupulous people. And I'm just too young to accept that we need a third party. He then later says, I'm going to help build a third party. There should be a good faith effort to figure out what benefits the country. He's asked, would he be a candidate for the third party. He said, I don't want to be a candidate. Before I did the New York Times interview he's referring to with Lulu Garcia Navarro, someone said to me, quote, they're going to ask you if you're running for president. I was very tempted to say I'm running on the pro patriarchy ticket just to make sure I gain no new fans and make crystal ball as much of the 2016 meme of the lady screaming into the void. Of course, but that both happened separately yesterday. Neither of them referenced one another. So I don't know if they are coordinating on this together. Let's put up one more element. This Mediaite headline of Tucker Carlson making a lot of headlines, not just in Mediaite, for saying not long ago that he was out of the Republican Party. He's been a Republican, he said, his whole life, but he is out now. He's done. How could I or any American voter support a political party that's not loyal to the US that puts the interests of a foreign country above those of its own citizens. He said on June 22 it's not possible to vote for people like that and I'm not going to. So Crystal, a lot to unpack here, or maybe really not that much to unpack here because frankly, I don't think this is happening. I think the reason historically we get caught in or historically you've had third parties be more successful than they've ever been in recent history is just that money has fundamentally bolstered, augmented the two party system in ways that it hadn't always in the past. But maybe I'm Wrong about that. It's my theory. I just don't see how it's possible to break the two party infrastructure at all.
- [26:40]
Krystal Ball
I mean, if you play this out and think about, okay, what would happen if Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson and Thomas Massie, let's say, start this third party, like what would, what would proceed and what would happen is they would peel off, I don't know, 10%, 20% maybe, maybe of the Republican Party,
- [27:02]
Saagar Enjeti
which makes you a spoiler basically.
- [27:03]
Krystal Ball
And then the Republican Party would be guaranteed to lose by a wide margin and that's what the result would be. So I encourage them to go in this direction. I mean, as someone on the left who is always thinking about, we've been having this third party conversation on the left for a very long time and should you do that or should you work within the Democratic Party and are they going to co opt you and then you never end up really being any different than them. And this is an ongoing debate. Both paths are very difficult. But we can see with DSA what actually works. Look at the DSA versus look at the Green Party, what is, you know, and I don't think it's fair. I don't think the Green Party were the spoilers in 2016. If you look at the numbers, it doesn't really work out because you're assuming all of those voters would show up and would vote for the Democrats if they didn't work. Vote for the Greens. I don't think that really, you know, I don't think that math totally maths. I also don't think that blaming voters for deciding that they prefer this other alternative is really the way to go either. But in any case, you could see the Green Party has had very limited impact on American politics trying to pursue the third party path and DSA and before the Working Families Party and you know, even if you look on the Republican side, the Tea Party or Trump taking over the Republican Party, you can look further back at the DLC taking over the Democratic party in the 90s, which is not a direction I would wanted them to go in. Would want them to go in. But in any case, it was a successful sort of takeover of the party. That is the much more likely path of success if you want to change the political system. So without these more fundamental reforms, which I support, by the way, we should have ranked choice voting. We should make it so that there could be a broader array of political parties and views represented in our politics versus just Democrat and Republican. You have to start there. If you're starting just with the, we're going to have the third party and it's going to work out. It's not. And I think, I think to your point about why that is, the money's part of it, but I think it's more. There's just such hardened partisan loyalties that if you put an R by your name or you put a D by your name, you're like guaranteed this certain chunk and then you're just, you're building from there. Whereas if you come up, if you create something new, you really are starting from vote number one and you're at a tremendous, tremendous disadvantage. So I think it's better to look at these established parties as the hollow husks that they really are. And especially on the Democratic Party side, I mean, truly just a hollow husk. In fact, if you get endorsed by the establishment figures in the Democratic Party, it's a bit of a pox on you. In a drag in an election. They have no real organizing capability. They've just been completely, genetically. Yeah, that's a great example. They've been completely hollowed out. So just look at them as like hollow shells that can be taken over and molded to, you know, a new conception and taken in a different direction. So. But I think for Tucker and Marjorie Taylor Greene, there's a lot of wishcasting about what the Republican base wants would be and wants.
- [30:06]
Saagar Enjeti
Right.
- [30:07]
Krystal Ball
But when you actually look at the polling of do they like Tucker Carlson or do they like Trump? Like it's not even close.
- [30:12]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:13]
Krystal Ball
So I, maybe that changes. But I think if Tucker were to run or some Tucker ish figure, Thomas Masie or whoever were to run in a Republican Party primary, I think they would get destroyed.
- [30:24]
Saagar Enjeti
It's interesting because right now polls are finding historic levels of people identifying as independents as opposed to Democrats or Republicans. But to your point about that hardened core, what that does in our primary system is, or I should say what that does in the general election system is make it so that there is this huge baked in benefit because that's really hard to overcome when you have roughly 30%, 30% of the country in either of those directions. And so you're fighting over the scraps of remaining independents. But that's also about voter turnout. So like if, if you're in a midterm election cycle, the independents aren't turning out as much as the partisans. So it's really, really hard to overcome that for the reasons that actually get into how we conduct elections here. So I think the theme of today's show is how elites are pushing to the brink. And I'm very curious. We talked about this in the last block. The comparisons when the dust is settled between the DSA and the Tea Party movement. Because the trajectory of the Tea Party movement is utterly depressing, obviously, because Trump comes along co ops it. A lot of the establishment Republicans co opted it and now the DSA is talking about term limits. I mean right. Like that's the Tea Party movement changed the Republican Party in some ways. Like I'm glad that we have a more protectionist Republican Party right now. Slightly more protectionist. Not really. It's now become. That's another part we didn't even get to in the first block about Trump corruption is how the tariffs have been applied in such a grifty way. So I'm glad that the Overton window has been shifted on some of these issues. But I wonder if the DSA can learn lessons from the Tea Party and actually change the Democratic Party in ways the Tea Party was not able to change the Republican Party. And I wonder if actually that's what MTG and Tucker Carlson are really thinking about is shaping the Republican Party in a different direction and building on maybe some of the scraps that are remaining from the Tea Party era. That might be the better shot than actually assuming you could have a successful third party Republican or third party independent right of center person rise in a presidential election and become the commander in chief. If that's what they're getting at that it's much more possible. But there are a lot of ways. I mean the Tea Party was a very powerful political movement and it didn't end up, I mean it ended up with Trump basically.
- [32:40]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. And I think there's a lot to dig into there. I mean I think partly and I ran during the Tea Party like peak of Tea Party 2010 and went to Tea Party meetings and like took their questions and did the whole thing. So I'm very familiar with.
- [32:54]
Saagar Enjeti
Were you for term limits when you ran?
- [32:56]
Lauren Boebert
No.
- [32:56]
Saagar Enjeti
Interesting.
- [32:57]
Krystal Ball
And I think I'm still not defensible position.
- [33:00]
Saagar Enjeti
It's a defensible position.
- [33:01]
Krystal Ball
I mean my thing is just if anything think there should be more democracy, more choice. I'm more in the direction we should force things like debates.
- [33:08]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:09]
Krystal Ball
So that there is more of a Democratic choice. People know what they're getting. They're able to evaluate. Okay, is my future member of Congress able to string three sentences together or not? That's more the direction I would rather go in even versus becoming more inclined towards age Limits. But even I sort of oppose it anyway. So that's a different subject for a different day. But the Tea Party was always very inchoate. What they actually wanted. They're just mad. Right. And there was not a lot of ideological cohesion. So the closest thing you could come to is like, we wanna cut the deficit, we wanna spend less money. But even that, ultimately Trump takes it over. Trump spends more money than anybody.
- [33:47]
Saagar Enjeti
Yep.
- [33:48]
Krystal Ball
So even that, I remember there was always this famous sign that was like, get your government hands off my Medicare. And it was like, you know, that was kind of the vibe was just like, we feel like the country is changing and we're mad about it.
- [34:01]
Saagar Enjeti
And the bailouts were big.
- [34:03]
Krystal Ball
The bailouts. I mean, I don't know, were they? Because I don't know that that was really core to the Tea Party concerns. I think it was much more. I think there was certainly a racial element to it with Barack Obama there, that was definitely part of it, but I think it was more this sense of the country is changing ways that we are uncomfortable with and we just want to hit the brakes. So in any case, there wasn't a cohesive ideological strain that was consistent from the Tea Party to Trump, other than just rage. And then Trump becomes this truth. I mean, you have to. It's cult of personality. It genuinely is. And so then it just becomes about Trump and whatever Trump wants. So I think one of the learnings for the DSA has to be that there has to be some more consistent ideological content, which the DSA is more equipped for, because they're certainly ideological. You have to give them that. They do a lot of thinking about what the ideological content is and what sort of programs they would like to see. So I think that's one of the things, the pitfalls to avoid is it not just collapsing down into this cult of personality of a person who can then. And then you can justify whatever it is you want to do, whether it's complete graft for your family or, you know, whether it's a giant tax cut and deregulation for the tech oligarchs, or whether it's doing tariffs in a way that is so insane that it just completely discredits the entire program of tariffs.
- [35:26]
Saagar Enjeti
Right? Yeah. And in this media environment, I think it actually is hard for political movements not to get sublimated to personality. Just that's the way that we've mediated our politics, exported them onto algorithmic platforms. It's really, really hard to avoid that happening. I don't know what that would look like from the dsa. But.
- [35:44]
Krystal Ball
Well, Zorin is kind of an interesting example because it's certainly his personal charisma is like off the charts and extremely, extremely, extremely talented, but also has immediately used that personal political capital to build out his movement. He is a DSA guy. Like, that was when he was getting 1% in the polls. He was a DSA guy. And the idea was we're going to do this totally long shot insane thing just to push forward the movement and the ideas and the ideology. And so he immediately turns around and takes some big political risks that right now are paying off for him that are in the direction of it can't just be me. There has to be this broader movement. And it actually dovetails with the conversation that we're having with Michael Lang about how he was able to transfer his coalition into other candidates in a way that Barack Obama isn't able to, in a way that Trump is not able to.
- [36:43]
Saagar Enjeti
Exactly. That's a good point.
- [36:44]
Krystal Ball
So that makes it, you know, you can tell that it's different because of the nature of that, where people say, okay, well, these people are on board with Zoran's program. And so he has made it. Even though he is very important as a leader, he has also made it much more about how do we build this movement in New York City to start with. But across the country, he really proves
- [37:07]
Saagar Enjeti
the aoc, the infamous or famous really AOC quote where she said, in a European system, Nancy Pelosi and I would not be in the same political party. Totally true. And actually we're seeing that in the UK right now, the rise of the Greens, the rise of reform, totally undermining the institutional power of the two major parties there. And they have a totally different system, of course, as well. But what's interesting about that is it's about the coalition, too. So Zoram Hamdani brings in a coalition that is not just the Democratic Party coalition. It's Trump did something similar. He brought in a lot of Obama voters in the Rust Belt. And that doesn't translate to any other Republican so far. So the Xoran experiment then, is to go to places like Colorado, California, and take that same coalition and build it up around Imola Kiros or someone else. And if that's successful, that is a total transformation and a takeover of the Democratic Party in a way that if Trump is gone, we still don't know what happens to the Republican coalition. And the proof so far is that it doesn't remain the Trump coalition. Where in the Rio Grande Valley you're having Hispanic men vote in big numbers for Donald Trump. That doesn't seem to be translating to literally anybody else.
- [38:15]
Marjorie Taylor Greene
Yeah.
- [38:15]
Krystal Ball
My last question for you is Tucker, in the same moment when he said that thing about like, I'm out, I'm done with the Republican Party, he then was like, yeah, But I like J.D. vance. You know, he remains. And I think they talk, I think they're friendly. He remained open to supporting JD Vance. So I also wonder how serious he is about, like, I'm done with the Republican Party or whether ultimately does this calculation is like, yeah, but I really hate the Democrats, so I gotta stick with the Republicans.
- [38:44]
Saagar Enjeti
I have to say I'm not often surprised by Tucker. I was surprised to see him talking about working with a third party.
- [38:49]
Krystal Ball
Yeah.
- [38:50]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah. Because he's pessimistic and I think reasonably pessimistic. And that, you know, the third party talk is naive generally. And you heard Marjorie Taylor Greene try to frame it as consciously kind of naive. Right. Like, we're aware this is really difficult. And that's what lends me to the position or brings me into the position that they're trying to really just influence the Republican Party.
- [39:12]
Marjorie Taylor Greene
It's true.
- [39:12]
Saagar Enjeti
There are a lot of independent, independent voters up for grabs. And, yes, that's on the table right now. That was true during the Tea Party era as well. But I just think it's. I don't know. I was surprised to see that. I don't think he has any interest in running for anything. I think there are a lot of people who are chirping in his ear about running for things. I don't think he's interested in that at all. I think he's less interested in politics. And so the idea that he would be working on a third party was genuinely surprising to me. I don't know what's going to happen with this. I'm sure Marjorie Taylor Greene is in talks with people. That might be something we should ask Roe to see if she's brought it up to him or if Massey's brought it up to him, because Massie's going to be out of a job in a few months. So we'll see what they're actually working on. But I think our audience is as skeptical as we are that something significant would come of this.
- [39:59]
Krystal Ball
We will see. All right, let's talk about our declining empire here and the health struggles of several of our representatives. I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I
- [40:11]
Saagar Enjeti
don't trust much of anything.
- [40:14]
Michael Lang
It's the rage bait it feels like
- [40:17]
Krystal Ball
it's trying to divide people.
- [40:21]
Saagar Enjeti
We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.
- [40:26]
NBC News Announcer
NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America Nix that's
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- [42:06]
Saagar Enjeti
New reporting about the state of Mitch McConnell's health lest you think Mr. McConnell oh, he's no longer Senate majority leader. He's no important. He actually is. He's appointed himself to be on ahead of big committees, but new reporting he was we can put this up on the screen. Found, quote, unconscious and may have suffered a heart attack at his D.C. residence before being rushed to a local hospital last month, according to a District fire and EMS dispatch call made public Wednesday, the post reports. The June 14 call referenced medical personnel in an ALS or advanced life support ambulance being sent to the home shortly before 9:00am and mentioned there was, quote, CPR in progress for a cardiac arrest. Now, to be clear, right now we don't have a comment from Mitch McConnell, who is the sitting US senator for the state of Kentucky. He does helm important congressional committees. He has put himself in that position very intentionally. And we basically have no idea what is going on with his health. It actually reminded us of this report we did here exclusively at Breaking Points not long ago. We can put this next element up on the screen. Ryan and I reported back in December that we got a picture from Reagan Airport, Reagan National Airport, not long after the election. And Mitch McConnell was being pushed around in a wheelchair by his staffer. Basically, this was not getting reported on by anybody in the press. People in the press had seen this happening and had not reported on it was our understanding at the time. Again, not a huge bombshell. Exactly. It's obvious that Mitch McConnell is enfeebled, to say the very least. He struggled to even make it through multiple press conferences. He stumbled physically, literally in public. But just come on. The people of Kentucky deserve better. No question about it. He is clinging to his power to wield it against the ascendant Trump movement, but particularly against anti interventionalist strains in the Republican Party. He's deeply concerned about them and you can bet he's staying in the Senate to tamp them down. That's basically everybody's understanding on Capitol Hill. He's come out and said as much multiple times now. It gets weirder because Republican Tom Keene announced. Do you all remember the mystery that was happening with Tom Keene, this congressman, Republican Congressman, who was just nowhere. He just disappeared. And his office was giving totally cryptic responses about where he was. They were saying things like, well, there are no cameras where Tom is again, insane, completely insane. Well, he announced in a floor speech yesterday that he was gone for months because of depression treatment. Let's roll the clip.
- [44:49]
NBC News Announcer
Several months ago, due to health concerns, I entered the hospital for some testing. I did not believe that this would result in a long term stay. I was given the diagnosis of depression. Now, when people hear the word depression, many people think simply feel means feeling sad. But depression is so much more than that. It is physical, it is emotional. And until you experience it yourself, it is difficult to fully understand how powerful this illness can be. The doctors recommended that I remain in the hospital to address my illness. They explained to me that this would be the fastest way to recovery. And to be honest, I was hesitant. I didn't think that I had time for it. I had responsibilities to my family. I had responsibilities to my constituents. I had responsibilities to this institution. And like many people, I believed that I could simply push through. But I agreed to follow my doctor's recommendations, again, not believing that it would result in a long term stay.
- [46:00]
Saagar Enjeti
This guy was going for 116 days and again with no transparency, with his staff, giving ridiculous excuses, cryptic excuses. And Crystal, you pointed out this Lever News article. We can pop it up on the screen. It's headlined Sickly from Me, not for thee and criticizes Keene for quote, taking a taxpayer funded four month absence from Congress to treat clinical depression despite repeatedly voting against paid sick leave for workers while serving as a state senator in New Jersey. So again, he's in Congress now, but this is when in 2018, a New Jersey law requiring employers to provide up to 40 hours of paid time off for workers dealing with an illness or medical condition came up and he was opposed to it. So just a wonderful insight into our mighty dignified elected officials here in Washington D.C. who insist on clinging to their power even though they clearly. I mean, listen, I think he is totally correct about the severity of depression, the physical consequences of something that looks like a purely psychological condition, but he's totally right about that. It's real. Then get the hell out of Congress. Get the hell out of Congress.
- [47:07]
Krystal Ball
He won his primary while he was apparently being hospitalized for depression. And by the way, to your point about his candor, he's still not being candid because the story doesn't make any sense. You don't show up for tests and then they admit you for months for depression. Typically you're admitted for. You are hospitalized for depression if you are a danger to yourself or others. So it seems to me, you know, he was either suicidal, there was something else going on here that he's still not being candid about. And so look, it's a, it's a sign of, you know, the declining empire with, with him, it's not an age thing, but with McConnell certainly is. It's also a sign of democracy failure. Like, how is this guy getting reelected at a time when we don't even know when he's like just vanished and we don't know where he is or what he's doing or why he's gone or anything. And he still gets the nod for the Republican Party to go on and continue in Congress. It also shows you how little most of these people do. I mean, did his constituents or the nation suffer because he wasn't there doing his job for four months? No. No one noticed other than to be like, well, that's weird that he's gone and isn't taking any of these votes. So some members are more consequential than others. The ones who just sort of check the boxes and do whatever the party leader tells them to do on the votes. They basically don't matter at all. It's their staff. They're running the offices and doing anything that. That's useful or consequential whatsoever. One person who was really not impressed with what Tom Keene had to say is Lauren Boebert, who really pulled no punches in her response. A fellow Republican in her response to his announcement that he was out for four months with depression. Let's take a listen.
- [48:47]
Lauren Boebert
I don't even think he used the word severe. He just said he was diagnosed with depression. I, for one, have been marked safe from depression today.
- [48:55]
Krystal Ball
What do you mean by that?
- [48:56]
Saagar Enjeti
What does that mean?
- [48:57]
Lauren Boebert
I'm here. You haven't seen those memes. Come on, now. You're younger than me. Okay. I guess it's a Facebook thing, huh?
- [49:06]
Saagar Enjeti
Okay, so what's your take on it?
- [49:09]
Lauren Boebert
I. I think it's embarrassing still. Even more so. I mean, sure, like, take care of yourself, get healthy, but who gets to take four months off of work because they're sad like that? That's not.
- [49:20]
Saagar Enjeti
It might not be sad.
- [49:22]
Krystal Ball
I mean, it's.
- [49:22]
Saagar Enjeti
It's.
- [49:23]
Lauren Boebert
He's depressed. He's sad, and I. Okay, whatever the reasons may be, it's embarrassing. I don't care what party you're a part of, it's not okay. I mean, I think there's a dose of depression that comes with these pins that we're given. And so, I mean, if you can't build up a tolerance to it, then maybe don't be here.
- [49:42]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, but it's. If his doctor's saying, hey, it's safe, it's not safe for you to go to work.
- [49:48]
Krystal Ball
I mean, doesn't that come before his job?
- [49:51]
Lauren Boebert
Did his doctor say that? I heard his doctor say that it. It is safe for him to return to work.
- [49:56]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, I mean, I assumed if he was there for that long, he was there under doctor's orders.
- [50:01]
Lauren Boebert
Maybe he should have been institutionalized. Like, if it was. If it were that bad. I mean, I, I don't know. Like, I, I. It's embarrassing. Do you think you should. I'm not gonna just sit here and just dunk on Tom Keane or Kane. I think the speaker pronounced it Kane. I don't know. I'm not going to sit here and just dunk on him and his. In his issue. I do think it is an absolute disrespect to his voters that he has not shown up and had a reason like that. If you're depressed, okay, come in the back door, put your Card in, vote and leave. Like, you don't have to talk to anybody. You can keep your head down low and. And vote and go home.
- [50:36]
Krystal Ball
I like that end part two, where she's basically like, we don't really do that much. Like, you could just come in and vote and leave. It will take you 10 seconds.
- [50:43]
Saagar Enjeti
Just dip the card in.
- [50:44]
Krystal Ball
Just dip the card in. Do your thing and go. And your staff will handle everything else, because they probably do that all the time anyway.
- [50:49]
Saagar Enjeti
By the way, this is why these ideas about remote voting for Congress are so stupid, because you could have somebody literally lying about where they are or not saying where they are. They're in clinical depression treatment, maybe because they are suicidal. And they're voting because their staff members are just keeping up the act for them and, like, finding ways to just vote whether they're there or not. So I think this is a good lesson as Congress moves closer and closer to that. There's a big push for that right now, by the way, worth noting. Also, just as I was saying, Mitch McConnell is trying to retain his power. He is at the top of the Rules Committee.
- [51:24]
Krystal Ball
Wow.
- [51:25]
Saagar Enjeti
He is in charge of the Senate Appropriation Committee, Subcommittee for Defense. The Subcommittee for Defense right now. He said it himself in an interview with the Financial Times. Quote, that's where the real money is. And he's really referencing Ukraine, but also probably Israel as well. So here he is clinging to power despite and not being transparent about it. Again, that's another part of this. His office hasn't said if any of this happened. This is the New York Post gleaning it from. And I think Punchbowl got it from medical record, from EMS records released in Washington, D.C. because people suspected something was going on.
- [51:58]
Krystal Ball
I mean, he's fallen on camera multiple times, broke his ribs. Right. Had a concussion because of a fall, froze on camera multiple times.
- [52:06]
Saagar Enjeti
Disgraceful.
- [52:07]
Krystal Ball
And now at this time, that's years ago that that happened and this man is still serving as a United States Senator. And then on the Tom Keene point, I think Lauren Boebert, when she's like, who gets to take four months off from their job? I think that's exactly the question that many Americans are gonna be asking themselves, especially since he's a hypocrite on the issue. It'd be one thing if he's a champion of universal health care and mental health, wellness and pay time up, but he is none of those things. He is the opposite of that. And so it is hard for me to think of any other job where you could Just casually disappear. Well, Sagar does it for four months outside of soccer. I mean, I guess if you. Yeah. If you own the business, I guess you get to do what you want. But we don't know where Sagar is.
- [52:50]
Saagar Enjeti
He could be Fetterman.
- [52:52]
Krystal Ball
There are no cameras where Sagar is, Emily.
- [52:54]
Saagar Enjeti
That's actually probably true. We do know where Sagar is to an extent. I could probably guess.
- [53:02]
Krystal Ball
I love your consistent desire to dunk on Sagar when he's not here.
- [53:06]
Saagar Enjeti
I mean, it's the only one of
- [53:08]
Krystal Ball
the best things about you.
- [53:10]
Saagar Enjeti
I've known Sagar for long enough that I get a pass. I've known him since he was a different Sagar. A younger, more naive Sagar.
- [53:21]
Krystal Ball
Okay.
- [53:21]
Saagar Enjeti
And vice versa.
- [53:22]
Krystal Ball
Less jaded, hardened by the world.
- [53:25]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah.
- [53:26]
Krystal Ball
In any case, I think most people will be looking at this and be like, if I took four months off, I would be fired. That's the way that would work. And then I'd be more depressed. You know, I would be more depressed. Mike Johnson, if this isn't the job for you, there are other jobs. Go do, like, you're lobbying, you're miserable and you are not doing the job, so go do something else, please. I don't know. The whole thing is just too wild.
- [53:50]
Saagar Enjeti
Mike Johnson has like tepidly criticized him.
- [53:53]
Krystal Ball
Oh, did he?
- [53:53]
Saagar Enjeti
Oh, yeah. He was like, well, I would have been more transparent about it. And it's like, all right, so we can all come together and tepidly criticize it, but it just keeps happening. The former Senate Majority Leader is doing it right now and is anybody trying to push him out?
- [54:06]
Krystal Ball
But. And I do, really, I want to come back to the point about it says something about our system that this can happen and there's no political electoral consequence.
- [54:17]
Saagar Enjeti
Kaine might lose his seat.
- [54:18]
Krystal Ball
Is it a close one?
- [54:19]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah. Republicans are partially. I bet it's partially why Johnson feels comfortable criticizing him, because I think it was one of those things where people didn't know if he was gonna come back in time for the primary to be okay. So it was hard to like field a replacement cuz people didn't know if he was gonna step back in or whatever. And this time around, it's a swing district, so he might actually lose the seat for Republicans, obviously, when they're clinging to every single seat they possibly can.
- [54:42]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, but I'm just thinking of like Dianne Feinstein, you know, where there was a progressive challenge to her and it was beat back by Obama and Nancy Pelosi and, you know, they don't have to do town halls. They don't have, like, it's much easier now than ever, I think, even as cameras are everywhere for them to hide their true condition from the public. And so it, you know, falls to people like Ken Klippenstein to be like a total asshole and be like, why is Susan Collins shaking like that? You know, because people deserve to know because so much has been hidden in the past.
- [55:14]
Saagar Enjeti
So, yeah, no, I think that's true.
- [55:15]
Krystal Ball
Shout out to Ken for being the asshole for the people. An asshole for the people.
- [55:21]
Saagar Enjeti
If Ken runs, that's his slogan. And it might work.
- [55:23]
Krystal Ball
It might work. An asshole for the people. I mean, that was kind of the central promise to Trump, right?
- [55:28]
Saagar Enjeti
Yes, yes, true.
- [55:30]
Krystal Ball
Being an asshole for his own sake.
- [55:32]
Saagar Enjeti
But, Chris, you have just brought the show full circle in such a beautiful, poetic way. That was very well done.
- [55:38]
Krystal Ball
I'm glad you enjoyed that.
- [55:39]
Saagar Enjeti
Oh, that was perfect. It's been such a pleasure to be here this week and we have a Friday show. Some people might be taking the Friday before the 250th off. Not us.
- [55:49]
Krystal Ball
Not us. We have to cover all of the news for the Patriots that people need to know. We will be there and Emily doing every single show this week. So thank you, my friend.
- [55:59]
Saagar Enjeti
I'm gonna steal the iHeartRadio trophy and it's off camera right now. I'm gonna steal it, you know, put it behind me.
- [56:06]
Krystal Ball
You deserve it. And not only are you doing that, you're doing your own show too. Like, hardest working women in show business here.
- [56:11]
Saagar Enjeti
You gotta do what you gotta do, you know, you can't be caning. You can't be pulling a Tom Kane.
- [56:17]
Krystal Ball
There are always cameras where Emily is.
- [56:21]
Saagar Enjeti
Honestly, it's true about all of us. Shout out to flock. We are always all on camera. I bet they've got some footage of
- [56:26]
Krystal Ball
Tom Kane that we shout out to Palantir. There are always cameras where all of us are.
- [56:30]
Saagar Enjeti
Oh, goodness.
- [56:32]
Krystal Ball
Anyway, thank you guys for watching. Sign up for the newsletter breaking points.com if you're having trouble, support@supercast.com and we'll see you tomorrow. Should be a good one.
- [56:57]
Saagar Enjeti
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Saagar Enjeti
Any toppings? Now with stuffed crust for 9.99.
- [58:09]
NBC News Announcer
It's a long term contract with no release clause. Only 9.99?
- [58:14]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, that sounds like the move.
- [58:16]
NBC News Announcer
I'm heading straight to DOM. Prices higher for some locations.
- [58:21]
Krystal Ball
Excludes Excel and specialty pizzas.
- [58:22]
Michael Lang
Select this offer from 6:15 through 7:26 online only. Size availability varies by crust height. Max 7 topping 6 for Han and New York style crust.
- [58:28]
NBC News Announcer
Minimum purchase required for delivery. Prices, participation, delivery area and charges may vary.
- [58:34]
Krystal Ball
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.