7/23/25: Microsoft Workers Rebel On IDF Support, Bibi Blackmailed Bill Clinton, IceBlock Founder Wife Fired By Trump Admin

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Episode Summary: 7/23/25
Release Date: July 23, 2025

Hosts: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Author/Producer: iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

In this episode of Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar, the hosts delve into three major stories: the rebellion of Microsoft workers against supporting Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) operations in Gaza, allegations of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu blackmailing former President Bill Clinton, and the controversial firing of Caroline Feinstein, wife of the ICE Block app founder, by the Trump administration. The discussion is marked by critical analysis, insightful commentary, and the inclusion of notable quotes with timestamps for clarity.

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1. Microsoft Workers Rebel Against IDF Support [00:38 – 05:21]

Key Points:

• Microsoft's Involvement in Gaza: The episode opens with Ryan Grim discussing internal dissent within Microsoft. Workers have publicly declared their refusal to continue supporting Israeli tech initiatives that contribute to the ongoing conflict in Gaza.

• Increased Financial Support: Internal documents reveal a significant uptick in funds from the Israeli Ministry of Defense to Microsoft since October 2023, exacerbating employee concerns.

• Potential Impact on Microsoft: While Grim acknowledges that Microsoft may still find employees willing to work on these projects, the public backlash raises the stakes for Western companies involved in similar operations.

Notable Quotes:

• "This is an escalation from Microsoft workers who are now drawing a line and saying that they will just simply not work on this account." [00:38]
• "The publicity around it and the difficulty around it raises the stakes for Western companies who are continuing to be so intimately involved in what the world is now seeing." [04:05]

Analysis: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti emphasize the moral and ethical implications of corporate involvement in international conflicts. They discuss how employee activism can influence corporate policies and public perception, potentially leading to broader industry shifts.

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2. Critique of IDF's Propaganda Efforts [05:21 – 14:15]

Key Points:

• IDF's "No Civilians Shot" Video: Grim introduces a 43-second IDF-produced video intended to showcase restraint by soldiers during aid distribution in Gaza.

• Skepticism and Analysis: Krystal and Saagar dissect the clip, questioning its authenticity and usefulness as propaganda. They highlight inconsistencies, such as repeated orders not to shoot, which seem unusual compared to standard military protocols.

• Comparison with Other Propaganda: The hosts draw parallels with past propaganda efforts, noting the difficulty in capturing such moments without scripted elements.

Notable Quotes:

• "There's no world in which US Troops looking at a group of people who are mobbing an aid truck and kind of taking the flour off the aid truck would have to be told not to shoot." [05:21]
• "They're doing a propaganda film here. Can you please not shoot the civilians?" [05:21]

Analysis: The hosts argue that the IDF's video is a strategic attempt to control the narrative amidst escalating violence. They express doubts about the video's representation of reality, suggesting it may be selectively edited to present a misleadingly peaceful image of the conflict.

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3. Netanyahu Blackmailing Bill Clinton with Lewinsky Tapes [14:15 – 28:49]

Key Points:

• Historic Allegations: Grim recounts a largely forgotten scandal in which Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu allegedly blackmailed then-President Bill Clinton by threatening to release tapes of Clinton's intimate encounters with Monica Lewinsky.

• Timeline and Details: The discussion covers meetings between Clinton and Netanyahu in 1997, the alleged use of these tapes as leverage during negotiations for the release of Jonathan Pollard, and the subsequent fallout.

• Impact on Political Landscape: Krystal and Saagar explore the implications of this alleged blackmail on Clinton's presidency and its broader impact on US-Israel relations. They also touch upon the role of media and political operatives in shaping the narrative.

Notable Quotes:

• "Netanyahu approached Clinton privately to demand the release of convicted Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard... Netanyahu brought up the sex tapes in the context of the Pollard demand." [17:25]
• "Clinton suggested the pair say they knew they were under surveillance and so the phone sex was a put on for whoever was listening. That's an awfully flimsy idea." [21:03]

Analysis: The hosts highlight the intertwining of personal scandals and international politics, illustrating how personal vulnerabilities can be exploited in high-stakes geopolitical negotiations. They question the credibility and motivations behind the allegations, urging listeners to consider the sources and potential biases in historical accounts.

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4. Caroline Feinstein's Firing Over ICE Block App [28:49 – 47:42]

Key Points:

• Introduction of ICE Block App: The episode shifts focus to Caroline Feinstein, who was terminated from her position at the Department of Justice due to her minority shareholding in the ICE Block app—a tool designed to report ICE agent sightings.

• Feinstein's Account: Feinstein details her role in the US Trustee Program, her proactive approach in informing the DOJ about potential threats following her husband's doxxing, and the subsequent targeted termination after Laura Loomer publicly denounced her.

• Controversial Justifications: There is a discrepancy between the DOJ's stated reason for termination—"lack of candor during an internal inquiry"—and the implication that her involvement with ICE Block endangered law enforcement officers.

Notable Quotes:

• "I was targeted because of Joshua's involvement with the app." [34:50]
• "I am not involved with the ICE Block app, but as a citizen... the intent is to inform, not obstruct." [41:10]

Analysis: Krystal and Saagar discuss the implications of government retaliation against individuals associated with anti-government tools. They debate the balance between national security and freedom of information, questioning whether Feinstein's termination was a justified response to her indirect involvement or an overreach infringing on personal freedoms.

Guest Speaker: Caroline Feinstein

• Role and Responsibilities: Feinstein served as an auditor for the US Trustee Program, focusing on fraud and abuse within the bankruptcy system.

• Circumstances of Termination: She explains that her termination was a direct consequence of her husband's creation of the ICE Block app, which garnered negative attention from the Trump administration and anti-immigrant groups like Laura Loomer.

• Standpoint on Firing: Feinstein maintains that her involvement was minimal and that the app's purpose is to aid community members rather than obstruct law enforcement, challenging the DOJ's justification for her termination.

Notable Quotes from Feinstein:

• "I was targeted because of Joshua's involvement with the app." [34:50]
• "I am not involved with the ICE Block app, but as a citizen... the intent is to inform, not obstruct." [41:10]
• "The apps themselves do not endanger anyone. People's actions and understanding of what's going on could change a situation." [41:47]

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Conclusion

In this episode, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti provide a critical examination of corporate ethics in conflict zones, the manipulation of political scandals for geopolitical leverage, and government overreach in response to grassroots activism. Through in-depth discussions and expert interviews, they shed light on the complexities and moral dilemmas faced by individuals and institutions in today's volatile political landscape.

Final Thoughts:

• The episode underscores the importance of transparency and accountability in both the private sector and government.
• It highlights the ongoing struggle between national security interests and individual freedoms.
• The hosts encourage listeners to critically evaluate the information presented by powerful entities and to consider the broader implications of these high-profile cases.

Notable Closing Quote:

• "We can't have competent anything." [47:32] – Krystal Ball, reflecting on the current state of governance and institutional competency.

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This summary aims to encapsulate the depth and breadth of discussions in the episode, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the key issues addressed by Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti.

Transcript

[Ryan Grim]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

Sagar and Krystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Sagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail].

[Ryan Grim]

Microsoft workers who put this element up on the screen have told their bosses at the. At the company that they're no longer going to work on Israeli tech. Now, Microsoft is heavily involved, as Job Site has reported, with Israel's genocide in Gaza, providing enormous amounts of cloud computing and other technological support for the assault on Gaza. The amount of money that the ministry, the Israeli Ministry of Defense has sent to Microsoft has massively increased since October 2023, according to internal company documents that we reviewed and reported on. This is an escalation from Microsoft workers who are now drawing a line and saying that they will just simply not work on this account. Now, that doesn't mean that Microsoft won't be able to find workers inside the company who will do it, but the publicity around it and the difficulty around it raises the stakes for Western companies who are continuing to be so intimately involved in what the world is now seeing of not just people getting mowed down at aid distribution sites, but dying in droves of starvation and malnutrition. You think this resonates at all?

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, I think it's been resonating. I mean, Crystal and I covered what happened with the church and also the Christian village in the West Bank.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, the IDF just announced, by the way, that they finished their review of the bombing of their church and that it was an accident.

[Crystal Ball]

It was an accident.

[Ryan Grim]

So that's all resolved.

[Crystal Ball]

Good. Yeah, glad we got to the bottom of that one. But that was a real shift. And I think whenever a shift like that happens, you start to see more focus on every sort of subsequent, you know, people take more seriously when they see. That's a good point because it just, it erodes.

[Ryan Grim]

You have a new prism for how you're viewing what's going on.

[Crystal Ball]

Right. It erodes trust. So if everyone's telling this is Pallywood and it's all staged and fake, and that's your predisposition to. When you see these awful, awful images, those arguments that had been sort of blocking you from taking seriously the images and the claims of suffering, then you have. Those arguments against it have so much less credibility. When you have one experience like that, it changes. Like you said, it's a new prism. And I've noticed that in the last week.

[Ryan Grim]

I think speaking of staged and faked, we didn't talk about this A few days ago when it was released. But it's a fascinating development. The IDF put out this extraordinary short propaganda film of them for 43 seconds not shooting civilians. Let's roll this clip and then discuss. If you're listening, what you're seeing are hundreds of hungry people kind of mobbing an aid truck that's coming in through northern Gaza. And you're hearing commanders tell the soldier, IDF soldiers don't shoot, don't shoot. And at least four times in this short clip, they say, don't shoot, don't shoot, don't shoot. And then the people who did not get shot kind of applaud the IDF for not shooting them. This was then posted by the Israeli military as evidence of their most moralness.

[Crystal Ball]

So the IDF posted that video.

[Ryan Grim]

IDF posted that video. It doesn't take a whole lot of deconstruction to start to raise questions about it. It's like, okay, Congratulations, you found 43 seconds of your folks not shooting unarmed civilians who were seeking aid. What is going on with your rules of engagement? That officers had to repeatedly order troops not to fire on unarmed people. I've been critical of the US Military my entire life, basically. But there's no world in which US Troops looking at a group of people who are mobbing an aid truck and kind of taking the flour off the aid truck would have to be told not to shoot. None of the soldiers. There are under any risk whatsoever. Like, it's clear what the people want. The people want the food that's on the truck. There would be no other army in the world would think, oh, we should shoot at these people. So that they had to keep saying, hey, we're filming here, guys, don't shoot. Like we're doing a propaganda film here. Can you please, can you guys please not shoot the civilians? It reminds me of the one that the GHF put out several weeks ago, where it's a guy speaking to camera for like seven seconds talking about how effectively they're distributing aid and how there's no violence. And this is an amazing accomplishment. Tremendous success is what Tammy Bruce at the State Department called it yesterday. And at the very end of the clip, you hear gunfire from. There's no Hamas anywhere near these things. That's why they're 50. They're like 15 kilometers away from any populated area. And so it's like. And that's the take they posted. Like they couldn't even get a seven second clip where they weren't shooting in the background. So this was really striking me. It made me Think like. So I was. I did the show yesterday. I. So I came from out northwest D.C. down to the studio here. Also went home. I saw a lot of people on my way in and my way out. I didn't shoot any of them. None.

[Crystal Ball]

The most moral television host in the world.

[Ryan Grim]

Really? Yeah, I saw a bunch of people this morning.

[Crystal Ball]

Some of them were hungry. Probably.

[Ryan Grim]

Probably not. Maybe a few were like, define hungry, right? Yeah, I didn't shoot. I haven't. I have not shot anybody all day long. Nobel Peace Prize, and I don't think I will shoot anybody for the rest of the day.

[Crystal Ball]

All right, I'm going to come next week with a letter nominating you for the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Ryan Grim]

I appreciate it. There's a lot of stiff competition this year. Yeah. So my chances are not very good. So this is the state that they're in with their propaganda. Here's 43 seconds in which we didn't shoot unarmed people. Now, a warning. If you're not following this closely, a lot of this might be new to you and might be graphic. Maybe you want to scroll through this if you don't want to see it. It is very graphic, but the intensity of the violence is just exploding. So we can put up C3 here. This is all stuff within the last 24 hours. This is a strike on a home that killed 15 civilians, including an enormous number of children. You've had an increasing number of strikes where you're seeing. Yeah, you don't even want to look at that. You're seeing fetuses blown out of pregnant women's bodies. These are toddlers who were born after October 7th, you know, who have known nothing. But this here's a man who died of starvation. Well over 100 people now have died of starvation. And here's a clip that was circulating. Just two guys just sitting out on the pier. Just bombed and killed just for sitting on the pier. And that's it. And then filming their own murders. So, like, we keep hearing that they're getting closer and closer to a ceasefire, but an enormous number of the people in Gaza are now kind of beyond the point of no return. I reported on one. We didn't post this. You can see it on my Twitter feed if you want. A paramedic was hit yesterday. I hope he's still alive. He was alive as of yesterday, according to medical sources. And you can see him. So he's taken into the hospital with getting an oxygen, and you compare his picture to a picture of him from a couple years before. He's just Shed so much weight. He's just skin and bone. And the medics were getting food much longer than the regular population. Only in the last couple of days at Nasser Hospital, for instance, did the hospital staff stop getting food. Patients stopped getting food a long time ago. Now it's basically every person for themselves, whatever they can find. So it's just going absolutely bananas now. Meanwhile, they cut off Internet to Darabala, which is the remaining kind of civilian infrastructure left in Gaza. It's actually where Abu Bakr grew up and was from. It's where his family is, and it's where a lot of the UN and aid organizations are housed, because there's nowhere else for them to operate at this point. So they've now launched an incursion into Darabala. They cut off Internet to it. They're bombing the hell out of it. Saraiya Al Quds, which is a resistance faction, put out a statement that you can put. Put up this next element, that they've now lost contact with Rome Breslowski, who is one of the 21 of the 20 remaining hostages. Assumed to be 20 remaining hostages who are still alive. The, you know, Hamas had warned, and actually IDF commanders have warned, like, if we, if we continue to assault these particular areas, we're very worried that we're going to kill more hostages. They've already killed an untold number, uncounted number at this point, but a significant number of hostages. And so now there's this reporting that they've lost contact with Rome. So this is in the context of Wyckoff heading to, you know, there's reports that he's going to be heading over there as they're trying to finalize an agreement. There's, there's, you know, the negotiations heavily are around aid and how aid would be distributed, because if this aid system continues, then the death by starvation and the slaughter at all of these aid distribution sites would continue. And Hamas is saying, we can't, we can't agree to that. Yesterday, Tammy Bruce, this incredible moment at the State Department where he said, this is a. It's a tremendous success, like the Gaza Humanitarian foundation aid distribution. And one of the reporters is like, well, the result of the success is starvation. Like, that's your definition of success. Like, before, people weren't dying of starvation. Now they are. I'm not sure under what terms that counts as a success.

[Crystal Ball]

The ceasefire timeline is interesting because it seems to me like, and you've covered this closely, I think we've talked about it, that the escalation correlates the closer a ceasefire appears to be politically, the closer the Trump administration suggests they are to a ceasefire. Whenever Witkoff is negotiating, it seems like you end up.

[Ryan Grim]

It's like they empty the warehouses of bombs. Yeah. So I don't know. Hopefully we're going to get a reprieve to this soon, but, you know, too late for a lot of people. So let's also take a trip down memory lane.

[Crystal Ball]

This is crazy.

[Ryan Grim]

The 1990s. Benjamin Netanyahu, Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. Stick around for this one.

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No purchase necessary VGW Group Void where prohibited by law 21 + terms and conditions apply. So in a scandal that has been largely lost to contemporary memory, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was alleged to have blackmailed then President Bill Clinton by revealing to him that Israel had collected tapes of phone sex calls between the 42nd president and White House intern Monica Lewinsky. The story is worth revisiting amid allegations that Jeffrey Epstein was involved in a long running Israeli blackmail operation of his own. So Clinton met with Netanyahu in the oval office in February 1997. Subsequently, according to testimony Lewinsky gave to the special counsel's office, Clinton secretary Betty Curry reached out to Lewinsky to invite her to an Oval Office meeting, telling her Clinton, quote, had something important to tell her, unquote. It would turn out to be their final sexual encounter. But Clinton also used the opportunity to tell her that a foreign embassy had tapped his phone and recorded their conversation. Lewinsky said Clinton did not specify which embassy, though the meeting with Lewinsky came the month after his meeting with Netanyahu. The special prosecutor's report was far more concerned with Lewinsky's claim of the sexual encounter that day because it contradicted Clinton's claim that they had had only one encounter that year than they were with the fact that a foreign government was spying on the president and letting him know about it. The prosecutor was also interested in Clinton's response, namely that he proposed cover stories. These are cover stories that the two could employ if they were confronted with the tapes. Clinton suggested the pair say they knew they were under surveillance and the phone sex was a, quote, put on for whoever was listening. That's an awfully flimsy idea. But look, he was guilty. The man did not have much to work with. Now in April, Netanyahu and Clinton met again for a, quote, private visit on a Saturday. Then in May 1997, Clinton again had Curry invite Lewinsky to the White House. During that visit, he broke up with her, Lewinsky testified the next fall. So this is fall of 1998, Clinton hosted Netanyahu and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat for a summit at Y River, Maryland. Toward the end of the summit, at 7am After a long night of final negotiations and handshakes, Netanyahu approached Clinton privately to demand the release of convicted Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard, long a cause taleb of the Israeli far right. That's according to reporting to Time from the New York Times. Now, Netanyahu brought up the sex tapes in the context of the Pollard demand, according to subsequent reporting by Washington examiner editor Daniel Harper. In his book Clinton the Audacious Rebuilding of a Political Machine, he writes, quote, not wanting to directly threaten the powerful American president, a crucial Israeli ally. Clinton was told that the Israeli government had thrown the tapes away. But the very mention of them was enough to constitute a form of blackmail. Halperin reported the talks almost broke down as CIA chief George Tenet told Clinton he would resign on the spot if Clinton agreed to the terms. So instead, Clinton agreed to, quote, review Pollard's case. He did not release him. Pollard was eventually freed in 2015 under the Obama administration. Now, on the last day of his first term, Trump pardoned Pollard's handler back in Israel. Pollard is now an outspoken supporter of extremist National Security Minister Ben GVIR Itamar Ben gvir and has called for the full ethnic cleansing of Gaza. I don't know, Emily, what do you think? What did Netanyahu tell Bill Clinton?

[Crystal Ball]

I'm so curious.

[Ryan Grim]

Is there another foreign embassy that this could be?

[Crystal Ball]

So this is very casually in the book of Daniel Halper.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Crystal Ball]

Who is. I mean, you probably tell us about.

[Ryan Grim]

Him as a reporter.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, I was even gonna ask you. I mean, he's sort of a right of center Bush era. I mean, I don't wanna get this wrong, but that's my.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, he was doing a lot of these Clinton Inc. Style. Yeah.

[Crystal Ball]

Right. And then was covering foreign policy like during that time period. I remember Daniel Helper a lot from the kind of blogging years, if that makes sense. Like the bushira blogging years. But this is very casually in the book.

[Ryan Grim]

And there was another book, I think it was called Gideon Spies in 98, published in the UK that reported the same thing, that it was that Netanyahu and that it was Israel that had gotten these tapes. Because basically what happened back then, it was probably pretty, maybe even easier than it is now. A lot of people were learning about this affair.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Like it was, like it was everywhere before it was reported by Drudge and then by Newsweek. It was the Talk of like elite Washington. That's how like, you know, Linda Tripp was telling book agents and book publishers.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah. Lucy Ann Goldberg.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. Jonah Goldberg's mom.

[Crystal Ball]

Exactly.

[Ryan Grim]

And she's telling people and like, you know, actually, what's his name? George Conway. Right. He was, who's now the resistance Democrat guy. Kellyanne Conway's ex husband. And Ann Coulter and like this whole right wing world.

[Crystal Ball]

Brett Kavanaugh was working with Ken Starr. George Conway was in that group. Coulter was defending Paula Jones.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Crystal Ball]

She was in the Paula Jones.

[Ryan Grim]

Oh, and the Paula Jones lawyers, like, learned about Monica way early. And they. So in other words, a lot of people in Washington knew about the Monica affair while it was still ongoing. So if you were a foreign embassy that, that learned this and it would not have been hard for Israel and others, not just them, to learn about it, it would then not be hard for you to go and tap Monica Lewinsky's phone. You don't even have to tap the White House at that point.

[Crystal Ball]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

You just get Monica's phone line, which.

[Crystal Ball]

Is way easier, of course.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

And then you're, boom, you're going to pick up all of these calls that continued to happen. How do you like, how do you like Bill Clinton's cover story? We knew that we were being surveilled by a foreign government and so we decided to do fake sex tapes with an intern.

[Crystal Ball]

I mean, I was gonna say, I think actually that may. So first of all, I think it gives it more credibility that it's casually in the book. And I think Daniel Halper is like sort of broadly pretty pro Israel. I have to go back and look. But I think that's like sort of baked into a lot of the coverage that Daniel Halper has done. But I think the fact that this is sort of casually just inserted into the narrative of the book lends credibility to it and people aren't challenging. It is the same thing with the Alex Acosta quote that Vicki Ward put in her story that barely raised an eyebrow at the time. And Acosta, there weren't all other people from those meetings in the Senate coming out and saying this never happened. So anyway, all that. That's a bit of a tangent, but it also makes you look differently on the way Clinton vociferously denied the affair because. And it's possible that they were really serious about this defense for foreign policy reasons, that they were. They had motives beyond just protecting Clinton, that they were like, also dealing with the potential foreign policy consequences of this entire thing being known to an ally. It was crazy.

[Ryan Grim]

By fall of 98, when the Wye river thing is happening, this Eastern Shore. I remember when that was happening. Eastern Shore of Maryland, the world, the public knew about all of this. So the value of that blackmail by then was much diminished by the fact that it was everywhere already. And then you had the midterms where Democrats over performed despite all of this stuff. Right, because when it. When did he. When did it all break that he admitted it. Trying to remember exactly when he.

[Crystal Ball]

Oh, man, the. Like that he. That's a good question. That timeline is important in this context. But yeah, I mean, the whole thing.

[Ryan Grim]

This is such a. August. Oh, so he admitted in the grand jury testimony in August 1998, but I.

[Crystal Ball]

Don'T think we knew that till 99, did we?

[Ryan Grim]

No, but then he knew it was going to leak, so they put it out immediately. Okay, Yeah. I mean, so by the time that Netanyahu at Y River is allegedly like blackmailing him with the tapes and telling him that. And he's. And it's an interesting phrasing that, that he's alleged to have used, which is, hey, those tapes I mentioned, like, don't worry, we destroyed them.

[Crystal Ball]

This is so crazy.

[Ryan Grim]

It's like, oh, sure you did. So that. But it's a way of, you know, mention bringing them up. And of course, I'm not threatening you. This is crazy, right? I would never do such a thing.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, it's kind of like, it's actually kind of like the Epstein Bill Gates email, which reportedly was, you know, it was about the woman that Bill Gates had an affair with, like the professional poker player. I think she's a professional poker player that Bill Gates had an affair with. And Epstein basically sent Bill Gates an email being like, hey, I think he asked for some type of payment related to the. Not for any sexual stuff, but just a scholarship, something like that. Just to let Bill Gates know he knew about this woman with whom he had an affair.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes, exactly.

[Crystal Ball]

You can't. And is it a smoking gun? No, because it's not. Hey, I'm blackmailing you. I know you had an affair. Give me money for this. Or it was like he had some charitable thing. He wanted money, quote, unquote. Charitable thing he wanted Bill Gates to give money to. And so he's not saying blackmail. This is blackmail unless you give me this money. He's just saying, hey, I know, I know.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, I know about this thing.

[Crystal Ball]

Many such cases. Yeah, many such cases.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. So. And yeah, the part about the CIA is interesting too. Like, because this was a bipartisan thing at the time that the CIA and whether you're Republican or Democrat were. And I think it was under Reagan that they caught Pollard, actually Jonathan Pollard, this spy. They were absolutely committed to keeping him behind bars and not releasing him. And it was when Obama let him out in 2015, it was like, you know, it's more like parole. Like you're he served like 30 years or whatever. He'd served like an enormous amount of sentence. But yeah, he's still very active in politics. He's even taught, he's even like floated that he's going to run for Knesset under the Ben GVIR banner, basically.

[Crystal Ball]

What the. It's just this, it is so crazy how many like you can play six degrees of Monica Lewinsky with politics at any given moment or six degrees of like Clinton Lewinsky scandal at any given moment. I mean, it's just, it still affects so many different things in so many ways. Absolutely wild.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. Really central moment. Yeah.

[Crystal Ball]

Crazy stuff.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes, indeed. All right, next we're gonna talk to Caroline Feinstein.

[Crystal Ball]

That's right.

[Ryan Grim]

Who was the wife of the guy who made the ice blocker. She worked for the basically the trustee office inside the Department of Justice overseeing bank like look basically as a bankruptcy FR fraud staffer. And she was canned by the Department of Justice due to her connection with her husband's ice blocker app. Let's talk to her about this time.

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[Ryan Grim]

Void where prohibited by law 21 + terms and conditions apply One of the things that the White House is most upset about is a new app called Ice Block which allows people to report ice agent sightings. And then if you have that app, you're going to get an alert if you're within five miles of one of these sightings. One of the odd consequences of their fury at this app is that they figured out that the wife of the app developer, Caroline Feinstein, worked for a division of the Department of Justice and they promptly fired her. So Caroline Feinstein is joining us now to talk about this saga and this app. Carolyn, thanks so much for joining us. You start out by letting us know what were you doing for the Department of Justice.

[Caroline Feinstein]

Well, thank you for having me with the Department of Justice. I was with a small program called the US Trustee Program and I was an auditor for them where we looked at fraud and abuse in the bankruptcy system. So my job was to look at cases and see if there were any places where they were not following the bankruptcy rules and follow up on that.

[Crystal Ball]

Okay. And so help Us understand a little bit the timeline as it pertains to you leaving that job over the last couple of weeks. So your husband develops the ice block app. @ one point, you disclose that you're getting death threats and the like to your employer, to the Department of Justice, and this all culminates in you being fired, being asked to leave. Tell us basically what happened.

[Caroline Feinstein]

Sure. About three weeks ago, my husband, Joshua Aaron, was doxxed, and they released our personal address, confidential information. So I preemptively contacted the Department of Justice stating, hey, there may be a threat here. I wanted to protect the department as much as I could. And after that, this was just this past week, Laura Loomer doxxed me individually on X. And that would. That was on Wednesday or Thursday. By Thursday, Laura Loomer, according to Tom Homan on a different news channel, had contacted him, and he had contacted the Department of Justice about me. This was Friday then that I received an email out of nowhere stating that my employment with the Department of Justice was terminated, effective immediately. But here's the thing about that. I wasn't just terminated. I was targeted. And I was targeted because of Joshua's involvement with the app.

[Crystal Ball]

As you see, it was the distinction between terminated and targeted.

[Caroline Feinstein]

Terminated could be for any reason under the sun that is justifiable by the department or the government as a whole. Targeted, in my opinion, is that I was sought out to be terminated because of the actions of my spouse.

[Ryan Grim]

And I think that that's probably true. Let me ask it this way, and I don't want to sound insensitive. It seems like. And I don't want to read into your own mind, but from your husband's perspective, Joshua's perspective, this White House is utterly out of control and is engaging in actions that are deeply harmful to the community, such that he would design this app to protect people against the agents of this very government. If that's. And I believe I agree with him, I think that his analysis is correct. But if that's the analysis, going to that same government and saying, hey, FYI, my husband did this app and now we're getting threats. Just wanted to let you know so that you can be aware of my work schedule and perhaps do something to protect me, feels naive. Like, this is the government that is doing the thing that your husband clearly believes is wrong and evil. Like, why? What would you. Would. Wouldn't you expect that same government then to be like, oh, you're married to him. Well, you're fired.

[Caroline Feinstein]

I understand that sentiment, but I also have experienced and strongly believe our government is full of incredible, dedicated people. And when I worked for the US Trustee program, part of our mission describes transparency. We advocate for transparency from debtors, from creditors, from anyone involved. So as a part of that program, I want to practice what I preach. And so that's why I preemptively went to them. I also knew that I could go to that program. And as far as I was aware at the time, these statements that I was telling them they were going to protect me. There may be different factions, different portions of the administration that practice things differently, but the people I've directly encountered within the federal government as a whole have been dedicated, just all around quality people. So, no, I wouldn't have expected that from the people I've encountered directly.

[Crystal Ball]

And you also explain this. I think you have minority shares in the company that holds the IP address for the app. And tell us about. Just tell us to what extent you may have had a financial stake in ICE Block and then what your communication was with the DOJ about that.

[Caroline Feinstein]

So this brings up a good point. One thing I'd like to mention is that when I received the termination of employment letter, the reasons in that letter stated lack of candor during an internal inquiry. And that just in lay terms, is lying VO mission or leaving something out. Those reasons differed from the prepared statement the Department of Justice released to the press, which included describing my relationship to the company. That you're stating a minority share that had been previously disclosed to them. And then it also insinuated that somehow that relationship endangered the lives of ICE officers and threatened law enforcement. So which is it? Why was I fired? Because those are two separate reasons.

[Ryan Grim]

So, yeah, basically what the DOJ is saying publicly is that you didn't. It's what they're alluding to, that you didn't disclose that you had this minority share in the LLC that. That operates this. So you're saying that you did. And when did you disclose that to them?

[Caroline Feinstein]

Right, that I wouldn't be able to cite an exact date. I can just say in the past.

[Ryan Grim]

It has been disclose and so do so if they had said, okay, well, you did disclose it. Now you actually are a minority shareholder of an app that is intended to disrupt, you know, law enforcement. Would that have been a justifiable reason for them to say, all right, you're fired.

[Caroline Feinstein]

To begin with that minority share. By the way, part of my position with the US Trustee was to investigate companies just to make sure everything's on the up and up. And as you're probably familiar Charters, incorporation documents. That's a good 20 second search with the Secretary of State at any time. In addition to my prior disclosure, they had the ability to check with the state of Texas and pull those documents, say, okay, here's the minority share. That was never concealed. As for equating that to endangering law enforcement, endangering the people that are part of the government that I proudly worked for, I would never put those individuals or those programs in danger, nor did I have the ability to. My work with the US Trustee Department was absolutely separate from anything involving immigration or immigration enforcement. I didn't have access to their files. I didn't have knowledge of their operations. I had no way to be involved in that.

[Crystal Ball]

And what is so like your general response because this is. And you just made this point as well, you said it is insulting to me because I dedicated myself and my career to serving the people of the United States. And now the DOJ is claiming I was attempting to harm some of them. And that's not true. There has been some targeting of ICE agents. So what is your response to the argument that an app like ICE Block and being at least a minority shareholder in a company that holds the IP address, all of that, what is your response to the argument that this does make it easier for anybody who wants to harm an ICE officer to harm an ICE officer?

[Caroline Feinstein]

Well, just to reiterate, I am not involved with the ICE Block app, but as a citizen, as someone who.

[Ryan Grim]

May.

[Caroline Feinstein]

Encounter ICE or other situations, this ICE Block app, as it's stated on their website and in the app, the intent is to inform, not obstruct. The other applications that are similar, like Waze, could serve the same function. So the apps themselves do not endanger anyone. People's actions, people's patience, and people's understanding of what's going on with ICE operations is what could change a situation.

[Ryan Grim]

Is there any revenue coming from this app?

[Caroline Feinstein]

Not a penny. Joshua Aaron does not want to profit from people's suffering, so he does not accept any funds for this app.

[Ryan Grim]

How much does it cost to run? Is an app like this? Is this fairly simple or is it now so widely used that there's some significant amount of kind of like cloud costs or whatever else is associated with running something like this? Do you have any sense there are.

[Caroline Feinstein]

Costs involved, but I don't know what they are.

[Ryan Grim]

Do you regret agreeing to be a minority shareholder on it? I mean, like I said, I'm somebody that thinks that this app is good and we're a free country. And if somebody Wants to let their neighbor know that they saw an ICE agent down the street. They should be able to do that, but given what happened. Was that a mistake?

[Crystal Ball]

No.

[Caroline Feinstein]

This company that I hold a minority interest in was formed years ago, and the purpose of it was actually to develop a healthcare application that's still in the works. When the ICE Clock app was developed and released, Apple requires a developer account, and the company already had a developer account with Apple, so that was used basically to save costs and out of convenience.

[Ryan Grim]

Did you know, not to cause an argument at home, but did you know when Josh registered it that he used the LLC that you were affiliated with?

[Caroline Feinstein]

I believe I was aware of that, yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Okay. My wife and I actually share an llc, and I could imagine me going and just setting something up, using it, and her later being like, wait, you did what? Now I'm fired?

[Caroline Feinstein]

You're probably familiar, then. Part of the reason that I just taken ownership, a small piece of that company is should anything unfortunately happen to Joshua, I have the ability to wind down operations, to close up shop without, you know, involving more paperwork in courts.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. Yeah. I mean, that's basically what we've got going on, too.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. But anyway, so he probably told you. You don't quite remember.

[Caroline Feinstein]

You are trying to start an argument, aren't you?

[Ryan Grim]

He is.

[Emily Jashinsky]

He is.

[Crystal Ball]

He's messy.

[Ryan Grim]

I kind of am. Kind of him. Well, that argument already happened. If it happened, I assume. What's next for you?

[Caroline Feinstein]

Bigger and better things. I am just exploring what those things will be right now.

[Ryan Grim]

All right, well, keep us updated. And the app seems like it's gaining in popularity, so I guess. And this probably only brings it more attention, and Loomer probably boosted it by doing that, I would think. What do you think?

[Caroline Feinstein]

The last I heard, there were almost a million users, so that really sounds like, for a crowdsourced app, it can really be put to good use in the community.

[Ryan Grim]

Right. Well, Carolyn, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

[Caroline Feinstein]

Thank you for having me.

[Ryan Grim]

You got it. Not the biggest deal here, but what do you think? Did he tell her that he was using the family llc?

[Crystal Ball]

I'm more interested in when she told the Department of Justice that she had a minority share in the llc. That, I think, is a pretty big question.

[Ryan Grim]

Not that I think they're firing her either way.

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to be honest, like, I think at the end of the day, if your boss. Even if your boss is wrong, if your boss says, we think this app is harming our ability to do our work, it seems Inevitable that that's going to happen. Now, whether the app in and of itself is good or bad. I'm honestly of two minds on Pisco asked me the other day about Alligator Alcatraz, and it's the same thing with some of this stuff. Like, I'm of two minds about it because. Because on the one hand, not having enough detention centers is what created so much trafficking from cartels through Mexico because we stopped detaining people while they were awaiting asylum. And all of that same thing, these ICE guys walking around, not identifying themselves in plain clothes, grabbing Ramessa Ozturk off the street. Like, this stuff is incredibly disturbing. You have to do some of it because there are actually criminals. So it just. I'm sort of split on the app itself, but it seems obvious that there was going to be a termination in.

[Ryan Grim]

This case, the other disturbing element. And before we go, we can put up E2 here. This is footage that's gone mega viral of an ICE detention center. Surreptitiously recorded people living for extremely long stretches in these. You know, this is not where somebody goes for like an hour and then it's processed somewhere else. People are, like, living like, basically on top of each other inside of. Inside of these makeshift detention camps.

[Crystal Ball]

And not having to do that under the Biden administration, Obama administration, and first Trump administration, not having to do that is what made it so attractive for that time period that people would come over and claim asylum. Because if you have to do that, that you don't have such an easy opportunity. And this affects people who have legitimate asylum claims, like the Venezuelan barber who was fleeing communism and ended up in Sicot. Like, it's messed up.

[Ryan Grim]

A lot of countries manage to control their immigration policies without resorting to that, though. Or this alligator Alcatraz.

[Crystal Ball]

I mean, a lot of countries don't have the volume that we have, but. Yeah. Anyone.

[Ryan Grim]

Anyway.

[Crystal Ball]

Anyway. Yeah, it's everything these days. We can't have nice things anymore in this country, Ryan.

[Ryan Grim]

I guess not.

[Crystal Ball]

We can't have competent anything.

[Ryan Grim]

Anyway, good luck to Carolyn. Good luck to Marty.

[Crystal Ball]

Marty was super interesting. You've known him a while.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Crystal Ball]

Go back to HuffPost.

[Ryan Grim]

Since. Yeah, since before he was. I think before. Yeah, before he was put in prison.

[Crystal Ball]

Interesting. Yeah, well, it was super fascinating. So we'll stay on that story, of course. And Ryan, you back this week. We're doing Friday.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm iffy. My wife's getting surgery related to getting her port taken out, so we'll see when that surgery is, but hope to.

[Crystal Ball]

Be able to join play it by ear. Best wishes to Elizanne and we will see you back here soon.

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[Ryan Grim]

This is an I Heart Podcast.