7/24/25: Whistleblower Reveals Gaza Aid Site Massacre, Candace Owens Sued Over Macron Wife Attacks, Tulsi Says Obama Guilty Of Treason

Summary

Title: Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Hosts: Krystal Ball and Sagar Enjeti
Release Date: July 24, 2025
Description: An in-depth exploration of recent developments in Gaza, the defamation lawsuit against Candace Owens, and the ongoing Obamagate scandal involving Tulsi Gabbard's allegations against former President Obama.

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1. Gaza Aid Site Massacre and Whistleblower Revelations

Overview:
Krystal Ball and Sagar Enjeti open the episode by addressing the harrowing situation in Gaza. A whistleblower from the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, a 25-year U.S. military veteran, has come forward with alarming accounts of excessive force used against Palestinians seeking aid. This revelation underscores the dire humanitarian crisis unfolding in the region.

Key Discussions:

• Whistleblower Testimony:
  The whistleblower recounts incidents where unarmed Palestinians were aggressively treated by American guards. Notable events include:

  • An unarmed Palestinian collecting food being pepper-sprayed with a full canister [03:19].
  • A stun grenade striking a Palestinian woman directly, causing her to collapse [03:36].

  Quote:
  Whistleblower [03:19]: "In all my years of service, I have never seen such use of force."

• Humanitarian Crisis:
  Krystal emphasizes the severity of the situation, noting that over 1,000 Palestinians have been massacred while attempting to secure aid. The dire conditions have led to widespread starvation, with as many as 2 million people at risk.

  Quote:
  Krystal Ball [05:07]: "You are starving 2 million people to death. It's as dystopian as you can imagine."

• Media and Political Response:
  The hosts critique the mainstream media's focus on peripheral issues rather than the immediate suffering in Gaza. They highlight Congressman Randy Fine's denial of the starvation crisis, labeling it as part of a larger pattern of media and political reluctance to address the atrocities.

  Quote:
  Krystal Ball [06:40]: "It's unbelievable that you have a member of Congress who is saying genocide ... 'Starve away.' It's just an accepted part of the discourse."

Conclusions:
The discussion paints a bleak picture of Gaza's humanitarian situation, emphasizing the need for international attention and accountability. Krystal and Sagar call out the media and political establishments for their inadequate response to the crisis.

---

2. Candace Owens Sues Over Macron Wife Attacks

Overview:
The episode shifts focus to the high-profile lawsuit filed by French President Emmanuel Macron and First Lady Brigitte Macron against American podcaster Candace Owens. The lawsuit alleges defamatory claims made by Owens regarding Brigitte Macron's gender identity.

Key Discussions:

• Defamation Claims:
  The Macrons accuse Owens of falsely asserting that Brigitte Macron was born male and transitioned at age 30. These allegations were propagated through Owens' podcast and social media, garnering significant attention.

  Quote:
  Krystal Ball [23:08]: "They are suing for 22 counts of defamation and related claims."

• Legal Challenges:
  The hosts analyze the difficulty in proving defamation, especially against public figures. The legal standards require demonstrating a reckless disregard for the truth or intentional deceit, which poses a significant hurdle for the Macrons' case.

  Quote:
  Isaac Saul [28:35]: "These claims are demonstrably false. And Owens knew they were false when she published them."

• Candace Owens' Defense:
  Owens contends that the lawsuit is a PR strategy by the Macrons, aiming to silence her and discredit her platform.

  Quote:
  Candace Owens [25:12]: "They did not send us a copy of the lawsuit ... This is a PR strategy."

• Impact on Owens:
  The potential repercussions for Owens include significant financial liabilities and reputational damage, especially given the extensive reach of her defamatory claims.

Conclusions:
The lawsuit exemplifies the complexities of defamation cases involving public figures and highlights the broader issues of misinformation and personal attacks in political discourse. Krystal and Sagar discuss the ramifications for both the plaintiffs and Owens, questioning the motives and potential outcomes of the legal battle.

---

3. Obamagate Scandal and Tulsi Gabbard's Accusations

Overview:
Krystal and Sagar delve into the controversial Obamagate scandal, where Tulsi Gabbard accuses former President Obama of treason. The allegations center around the creation and dissemination of a falsified intelligence assessment aimed at undermining President Trump's administration.

Key Discussions:

• Core Allegation:
  Gabbard claims that Obama orchestrated a fake intelligence report to depict Trump as overly influenced by Russia, thereby justifying the investigation into Trump's campaign's ties with Russia.

  Quote:
  Tulsi Gabbard [41:43]: "The evidence that we have found and that we have released directly point to President Obama leading the manufacturing of this intelligence assessment."

• Intelligence Failures:
  The hosts discuss how the initial intelligence assessment was based on unreliable sources, leading to a flawed investigation that lacked substantive evidence.

  Quote:
  Krystal Ball [44:58]: "The idea that Obama is guilty of treason is... a fantasy."

• Political Motives and Timing:
  Krystal and Sagar argue that the timing of the Obamagate allegations appears to be a strategic move to distract from other scandals, such as the Epstein files.

  Quote:
  Krystal Ball [51:57]: "It's ironic to see how Russiagate was used by Democrats to cover their failures and now Republicans are using it to cover for Trump's failures."

• Legal Feasibility:
  Isaac Saul highlights the improbability of successfully prosecuting a former president for treason, citing the high legal standards and statute of limitations.

  Quote:
  Isaac Saul [49:28]: "There's a very limited number of crimes that can be pursued, and treason is not feasible."

Conclusions:
The Obamagate scandal is portrayed as a politically motivated attempt to rewrite historical narratives and shift blame. Krystal and Sagar emphasize the importance of scrutinizing such claims critically, considering the lack of concrete evidence and the potential for political manipulation.

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4. Conclusion and Reflections

Summary:
Krystal Ball and Sagar Enjeti wrap up the episode by reiterating the critical need for independent journalism and accountability in addressing both humanitarian crises and political defamation. They call for listeners to remain vigilant against misinformation and advocate for truth in media reporting.

Final Thoughts:

• Media Responsibility:
  The hosts emphasize the role of media in either highlighting or obscuring critical issues, advocating for more focused and responsible reporting.

  Quote:
  Krystal Ball [57:03]: "It's a parody at this point... it's just unbelievable."

• Call to Action:
  Krystal and Sagar encourage their audience to support independent media platforms that strive to uncover and report the truth without bias.

End Note:
The episode concludes with brief mentions of upcoming segments and a nod to their commitment to providing unfiltered, honest perspectives on pressing political and humanitarian issues.

---

Disclaimer:
This summary excludes advertisement segments and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions and analyses presented by Krystal Ball and Sagar Enjeti.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Isaac Saul]

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[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Isaac Saul]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad, free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Isaac Saul]

We need your help to build the future of Independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] Good transition to what's actually going on down there.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Isaac Saul]

Which as we said is horrific to a point. Which like it's a new level of destruction.

[Krystal Ball]

So as Hagar was saying, there has been just abject, unimaginable horror unfolding in Gaza at the hands of the Israelis. And we now actually have a whistleblower blower coming forward from that so called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. This individual is a 25 year US military veteran who is sounding the alarm about the horrific ways that Palestinians are being treated there who are, you know, starving to death and desperately trying to seek any aid they can possibly get. Let's take a listen to a little bit of that.

[Sagar Enjeti]

You're a veteran of the United States army who has been deployed to combat.

[Isaac Saul]

12 times, four different wars.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Never in my entire military career have I been a part of, allowed or.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Bystander to the use of force against.

[Isaac Saul]

Unarmed innocent civilians ever.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

There is no fixing this. This needs to be put an end to it.

[Krystal Ball]

So this is from Israel's Channel 12 and in addition to what you heard there, he said that the aid centers treated the population very badly, put them in danger. He says, in all my years of service, I have never seen such use of force. He described an incident where an unarmed Palestinian was picking up food off the ground on his knees and was pepper sprayed by American guards with a full can of pepper spray. In another incident, he talked about a stun grenade being thrown and hitting a Palestinian woman directly. He says, quote, she collapsed, fell to the ground. That was the moment I knew I couldn't continue. In another incident, he said that Palestinians finished collecting the aid at the site. The American guards opened fire, shooting at them, at their legs, at the dirt mounds to force them to leave. He says, quote, you can't fix this. It has to stop. In all my military service, I have never seen such force used against unarmed civilians and I will not be a part of it. So he is coming forward. And of course we've seen some 1,000 plus Palestinians who have been massacred while simply trying to seek aid. It is as dystopian a situation as you could possibly imagine. In fact, it's beyond my imagination how dystopian it is. You are starving 2 million people to death. You have now daily multiple deaths of children and infants because they are being starved to death. And then you create this deadly hunger game situation in order to get any sort of aid. And it's not even the type of actual like nutritious aid that you would want to provide in this circumstance, but people having to risk their lives and being fired upon with live fire on again a near daily basis in order to secure what little bit of provisions are available. It's absolutely unbelievable. And at the same time, we've got one of our members of Congress here can put C2 up on the screen. This is Randy Fine, who is, quote, tweeting an ABC News article here about how 15 people, including four children have died, have been starved to death in just the last 24 hours. And he, quote, tweets that and says, release the hostages. Until then, starve away. Then in parentheses he says, this is all a lie. Anyway, it amazes me the media continues to regurgitate Muslim terror propaganda. Now, where is the media freak out over this? Oh, I forgot. They're too Busy writing their 5,000th piece about what Zoran Mamdani thinks about the phrase globalize the integr Fada. Where's the censure from Congress over this? I forgot. They're too busy concerned about what was it Rashida Tlaib saying, like from the river to the sea. It's just unbelievable that you have a member of Congress who is saying genocide these people, effectively, that's what that means. Starve away. And it just is like an accepted part of the discourse.

[Isaac Saul]

Well, there's a lot going on in that tweet because it's also. It's not happening. But if it were happening, it's good that it's happening. And so which is it, Congressman? I mean, look, you know, we can make all the fat jokes and all that stuff aside, but that almost, I think just what is happening is so horrific. Just the images, the conduct, the lies, and now at this point, the complicity. You have to ask, what possible reason are we putting up with this for? Every day, every hour, every second is all underwritten by the United States of America. For what possible purpose? You know, RFK Jr. Has not put out a personal tweet in like months on any of the subject. And he just responded to a article that's written, I'm a war scholar. There's no genocide in Gaza. And he writes the genocide charge is a blood libel.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, my God.

[Isaac Saul]

Thank you, Major Smith, for withering. So it's like he reared his ugly head for what reason? To just, It's. Look, I don't know what it is, all right? It could be blackmail. I think it's probably just like a deep ideological. I have no idea. But this psychopathy, it runs deep at this point. And at a certain point, we just all have to look at this and be like, this is unconscionable, unbelievable. It's evil. And like, the way that they get away with it and then have their defenders in our country tell us it's an anti Semitic blood libel for mentioning it's too much. You know, I mean, it has to break us forever from the chains of all of this anti Semitism industrial complex, because they don't care about that. They're using it as a cover to literally murder little children and women and starve them to death, to lure them to food and to gun them down with impunity. And that's the other thing that I think really divides this from some of the earlier conduct of the war, because they always had, at that time, the excuse was, what? It's all because of Hamas. They're using them as human. There's nothing about that right now. Right? You already leveled the whole place. You're attacking the last city and you're starving these people to death. By your own admission, literally, by your own admission, there's no getting around this. I don't know, man. This is dark stuff.

[Krystal Ball]

It is dark.

[Isaac Saul]

As dark as it is, it doesn't even give the, like, the proper picture, right? To say dark is almost like, oh, it's dark when something bad. It's like, no, man, this is a whole other level.

[Krystal Ball]

It recalls the greatest horrors in history. I mean, you can't see those images of those skeletal horror dead babies and not think about Auschwitz. You can't look at those images and not be reminded of the greatest failures and horrors of humanity of the past. And, you know, I mean, this is where people who want to dismiss the Epstein story, like, sorry to tie it back to that, but is the reason that we're cool with this, is it because they have some sort of a black blackmail on the President of the United States or RFK Jr. Or whoever? Like, why would you allow this to persist? Humanity will not be the same in the wake of this. And everybody who said starve away, who justified this, they're going to have to answer in the history books. But that's cold comfort to Palestinians who are starving to death, literally right now, today as we speak. Of course, the Israeli government, and this is gonna be C5 guys. They claim that there is no famine in Gaza, that this is all just lies, and that us even talking about this is, quote, unquote, playing into the hands of Hamas. Let's go ahead and take a listen to this.

[Isaac Saul]

This idea of famine and starvation has been thrown at us consistently on a weekly basis for the last two years now. It has never come to far pass. So these are our false warnings which come from these aid organizations. And I also would say that where there is hunger in Gaza, it is hunger orchestrated by Hamas. This is very clearly their tactic and it is working because Hamas seeks to.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Put international pressure, which unfortunately too many.

[Isaac Saul]

International countries are too willing to follow.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Suit on, to put pressure on Israel.

[Isaac Saul]

To support their negotiating tactics, stopping them initiating or agreeing to a hostage release pause. So this pressure which is coming, talking about starvation and famine, this is simply playing into Hamas's hands. Where there is hunger, it is hunger orchestrated by Hamas.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

It is hunger created by the terrorist.

[Krystal Ball]

Organization hunger orchestrated by Hamas. Like, who believes this shit? How do people like this sleep at night? Truly, truly. And he says, oh, we've been hearing this for two years now. Yeah. Because the Defense Minister, yoav gallant on October 9 announced, I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly. That was on October 9th. Now at times aid has been delivered. This is the most dire right now that it has ever been. Right now there is truly a complete siege. And the only aid that anyone really has access to is through this Gaza humanitarian foundation where you go and you might get a bag of flour or you might be murdered by the idf. I mean, it is just unreal that anyone could claim otherwise at this point and that this is allowed to persist. At the same time, you know, there it's easy to lose sight of what's happening in the west bank where there's been also extraordinary escalation of violence and annexing and stealing of land. They just took a significant vote in the Knesset with regard to annexing the West Bank. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

[Isaac Saul]

There are two things that you need to know about this. One, the vote doesn't actually do anything.

[Krystal Ball]

It's a non binding motion.

[Isaac Saul]

It has no legal power. And the reason they did it is to unite the Israeli rights around something.

[Krystal Ball]

That they agree on because they've been.

[Isaac Saul]

Fighting for a very long time over whether to conscript the ultra Orthodox community into the army. So it makes for nice headlines, but it doesn't actually do anything on the ground.

[Krystal Ball]

And two, the west bank is already.

[Isaac Saul]

De facto annexed, and it has been for a very long time. Israel has controlled the west bank completely for almost 70 years now. And even in area A, which is supposed to be Under Palestinian Authority, Israel practically has all the power. They control the checkpoints, they control the.

[Krystal Ball]

Energy, they control the taxes.

[Isaac Saul]

And whenever they want, they can just invade it with the army, as they often do. So de facto, we are living in a one apartheid state solution.

[Krystal Ball]

So that is independent journalist Andre explaining what the details of this vote are and the relevant political context here. And I think it's important to understand what he says, which is this idea that there's any sort of Palestinian sovereignty in the west bank already is a mythology. And now they're just moving to further codify and further entrenched and also to sort of like round up support on the right, because there are these various contentious issues that have sort of divided the Likud majority governing party coalition. And so this is a way to bring everyone together, to really unify everyone around the idea of just outright stealing all of the West Bank.

[Isaac Saul]

What's also really funny, too, is that we forgot to mention the C3, please. That even the American Jewish Committee condemned Randy. Fine. They said the serious humanitarian situation must not be taken lightly. Implying that starvation is a legitimate tactic is unacceptable. All those should be in need of humanitarian aid should receive it promptly and safely. Quote, our leaders must focus less on scoring political points and more on doing their jobs. Of course, they would deny that. They would deny that this is actually even happening and that they would probably put the blame like that on Hamas. But the point still stands around all of this. This is the thing about the belligerence and the actions in Gaza, which are unforgivable. Insane Backstop by the U.S. government.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

It's also part of this broader Greater Israel project, which, look, conspiracy theorists have been talking about that for years. It's real now.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

Gaza, Lebanon, Syria. Syria. This shit is real, guys. They're bombing Damascus. They're claiming an indefinite presence. They're annexing the West Bank. Like, it's happening right now. You know, just this morning, Israeli ultra nationalist minister, quote, all of Gaza will be Jewish. The government is pushing for Gaza being wiped out. Thank God. We are wiping out this evil. We are pushing the population educated on my. Listen to this shit. We are wiping out the population. It will be Jewish. They say this shit out loud.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

This is my always problem with America. Like, we're all focused on. It's like, just listen, all right? We can all hit the Google Translate button. That's it. That's all it takes to actually see this stuff that they're saying on cable television in Israel and here as well. And it's just like oh my God. Like you were genuinely watching this almost like neo colonialist project backstopped entirely by the American empire. For what possible purpose? You have the humanitarian and then the security situation. It would be different, I think, if this were, I don't know, if this were two countries that were fighting of their own accord, you know, that had their independent ability to inflict this type of horrificness on each other. That's one thing, right? And that calls for a tool set, but it's really another when you're selling people the technology, the bombs, giving them money to continue it, and then also using the full force of the empire to make sure that they bear no consequences for it. Like the United States withdrawing from UNESCO or whatever, from the un, accusing them of anti Semitism for talking about the humanitarian situation. Right. I mean, that stuff really does matter.

[Krystal Ball]

And cracking down on the domestic population. Fear over what we can say and do and who's allowed to get a college degree if you dared speak out against these absolute atrocities. And then I can't let this go. You know, I was looking at the New York Times front page and on the one hand, okay, they're covering the fact that people are starving to death, but there is still no culpability assigned. I mean, first of all, this is barely. This is not getting remotely enough coverage throughout the process. And as I said before, they're way more fixated on like, how hard Zoran will condemn this or that particular phrase or what some rally chant was or whatever. Here's their headline. Gazans are dying of starvation. Severe hunger has gripped the war torn Palestinian enclave where growing numbers of people are starving and the doctors treating them are working on empty stomachs. Guess what's not mentioned there? The fact that it's Israel who is starving them. And as you read through this, it takes to paragraph 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. It takes till like the 10th paragraph before the word Israel is even mentioned. I mean, it's a parody at this point. And I know you guys have seen probably the way that the headlines are like barely English to have these passive, weird phrase constructions to avoid assigning blame. Imagine it was Russia that was starving Ukraine. Do you think that the New York Times would have a hard time figuring out how to phrase that headline, how to cover that story, how to talk about it in the clear moral and factual terms that are justified? Of course not. Of course it would not be any sort of an issue there. And so look, the situation is dire enough that they feel that they have to cover is the top of Their website right now. But even so, severe hunger grips, Gaza grips. As if that just happened out of nowhere, as if it's some sort of natural disaster. Unavoidable calamity. It's just unbelievable at this point. It's just unbelievable.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, it's sick. I don't think there's really another word for it.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, Exactly.

[Isaac Saul]

We put C6 up there on the screen. I mean, look, you know, warning images. This shit's hard to see. Quote, we faced hunger before, but never like this. Skeletal children fill hospital wards as starvation grips Gaza. Ryan made a great point whenever him and I did the show, is that the timeline laid out by these food organizations has been almost exactly correct.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right.

[Isaac Saul]

About 60. It takes about 60, 70 days to starve to death. 60, 70 days ago, they were like, hey, people are going to starve to death if there's not a change in the status quo. Here we are. I don't know at this point. I know there's some potential movement or whatever on a ceasefire, but considering what's happened in the previous ceasefires, they're not dying of bullets at this point. Right. You're dying of severe malnutrition. Even in those previous ceasefires, it's not like there was a ton of humanitarian aid that got into Gaza. So there's no. And also, you know, once you get to the severe malnutrition, you're rife for disease, typhoon, you know, whatever. A mere cold can take you out.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And when you're that to a certain point, too, where it's not just like, okay, there's food to vet, you need specialized treatment. And, you know, the ones who are dying the most rapidly, it's these infants. It's these babies. The mothers are too weak to breastfeed. They're dependent on formula. There's no formula. I mean, you have a baby at home, like, yeah, I know. You can't. You can't.

[Isaac Saul]

And my kid is sick and my wife is sick, so I literally like. And we're living in the most developed country in the world with access to food and all of that, and this shit's still hard. So you put yourself in that situation.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I genuinely can't even really fully go there because I cannot even imagine that level of horror. And that's what's happening.

[Sagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

All right, let's make a hard turn to this friggin lawsuit against Candace Owens. Let's put this up on the screen. So the first family of France is suing Candace Owens over her allegations, core among them that the first lady of France, Brigitte Macron is actually was actually born a man and is transgender and at the age of 30 transitioned to being a woman and is hiding this from the world. Let me go ahead and read this a little bit of this New York Times article. So they say the French President Emmanuel Macron and his wife Brigitte Mackerl filed a defamation suit on Wednesday against an American right wing podcaster who falsely claimed as Macron is a man. The lawsuit filed in Delaware against the podcaster Candace Owens argues that Ms. Owens used false claims about the McCrones to promote her independent platform, gain notoriety, and make money. In a filing running more than 200 pages, the McCrones are suing for 22 counts of defamation and related claims and are seeking actual and punitive damages. The amount was not specified, as well as legal costs. The battle began in March 2024, when, according to the lawsuit, Mississippi Owens, quote, told the world she would stake her entire professional reputation on the accusation that Ms. McCrone is, in fact, a man. Ms. Owens made the claim on her podcast, then carried by the Daily Wire, and repeated it in a post on X. And this series that Candace did called Becoming Brigitte. It got, it was a sensation. I mean, it got millions of views. I think we have the, the first page of the lawsuit here that you can, you can see. This was what was filed in court and details a little bit of what the allegations are. I mean, listen, I dug into that. Well, let me first play a little bit of Candace here so you can hear her response. And then I can tell you what I learned in digging into some of these claims and whether there was any veracity. Spoiler alert. There's not. Let's go ahead and take a listen to Candace responding on her show yesterday.

[Sagar Enjeti]

If you need any more evidence that Brigitte Macron is definitely a man, it is just what is happening right now. The idea that you would file this lawsuit is all of the proof that you need. Okay. I have been in communication with their lawyers or via our lawyers, like their lawyers. And my lawyers have been speaking phone calls, emails since January. She's now named her law firm. I protected that. But now we can tell you. It's Claire Lock. Okay. Claire Locke is representing Brigitte and Emmanuel Macron has been in communication with us for months and yet they did not send us a copy of the lawsuit. They did not give my lawyer a heads up that they were filing a lawsuit, but they did instead opt to give this lawsuit ahead of time to the Financial Times, the New York Times, CBS News. What does that tell you? It's a PR strategy. They don't care if they win. This is about running it through the press. And how much PR are we talking here? Yeah, Claire Locke, Tom Locke or Tom Claire, whatever his name is. They actually uploaded the lawsuit to their website and then they gave CBS News a link to the uploaded lawsuit before I had been served, before my lawyer was even informed about it. I found out with all of you. I found out with the world. I found out from the financial Times. But they were unwilling for some reason to allow us to fly to France to interview Brigitte, which we offered to do before we started the series. They were also unwilling to simply answer our yes or no questions that we emailed to them so that we could ascertain facts. We did all of this before we aired the first episode.

[Krystal Ball]

So the core claim here, Sagar, as I said, is that Brigitte Macron was born a man. There are other allegations made as well that Emmanuel Macron was installed as present through some sort of a CIA MK Ultra style mind control.

[Isaac Saul]

I mean, he does, he's a little.

[Krystal Ball]

There are all kinds of. I don't know what other claims are made, some like sketchy associations to this or that. But the one about her being a man, where this comes from is there were some French bloggers and a quote unquote clairvoyant who based this allegation effectively off the fact that Brigitte Macron has a brother. And there's a picture of her brother when he's a child that looks a lot like Brigitte. Lo and behold, it turns out sometimes siblings kind of resemble each other because they have the same parents in reality. Brigitte Macron, they've released her birth certificate, pictures of her as a child, she has three children, et cetera, et cetera. But you know, this has now, because this series was such a sensation in some right wing circles, it's become almost like an article of faith. And so that's where this lawsuit ultimately comes from. And you know, on the legal piece, Pisco, who we've had on before, he told me he was like digging into the legal aspect. I'm curious what his take will be. Cause he's pretty good at parsing these things, calling balls and strikes as he sees them. The standard is very high. You have to either demonstrate a reckless disregard for the truth, which I think is a standard they might be able to meet, it's very hard to prove. Or that she knew and, you know, intentionally lie.

[Isaac Saul]

I can read from it. I have.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Isaac Saul]

What's section three of the. No, of the lawsuit?

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, the lawsuit. Okay.

[Isaac Saul]

These claims are demonstrably false. And Owens knew they were false when she published them, yet she published them anyway. The reason is clear. It's not pursuit of Truth, the pursuit of fame. Quote, after being fired from the Daily Wire, she used these demonstrably false claims to promote her independent podcast. And then they note the number of the number of followers that she gained after following. Now, the reason they frame that specifically is because that is the legal standard. Now from what I have read as.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, she did, by the way, she got a lot of paying subs off of this. She made a lot of money and got a lot of notoriety, I will say.

[Isaac Saul]

I mean I don't think, I think that's definitely true. But like I wouldn't say that's like the totality of what she's more recently known for, which is like Israel.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh sure, a lot of her popularity. This was. She's also big.

[Isaac Saul]

I agree. But this is part of where the financial things come. She's filthy rich already. She's married to like a billionaire. So you know, it's like, is it really monetary? Perhaps as they say, it is fame. The legal standard is very tough. The one thing going against Candace actually is people need to remember she's a Delaware llc. And this is some of the talk that I've seen online is that this is gonna be litigated in Delaware state court. Specifically around like in terms of the way that it was filed against her.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

And that the standard there's a lot of people are pointing to, remember the Elon situation in terms of the way that the state courts there can rule are not as pro business as they originally were. And the way that this all works out. And this is part of why I'm not a lawyer. I'm only relying on two. I looked at actually two separate conservative lawyers, people who looked at this. That guy Will Chamberlain who we had on the show, he says he thinks that Candace is going down and is going to be owing a large sum.

[Krystal Ball]

But he also. He does hate her though.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, he does.

[Krystal Ball]

Over Israel.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah. I'm framing it as in like he said that Mike Cernovich also was a lawyer, looked at it and he was like, you know, actually the legal standard here is a little bit different. The only reason she may go down is cause she's in Delaware state court. If this was in California or elsewhere, you know, the legal standard is such that it would be very difficult. The thing is though is that the damages that they're claiming here are also really tough for somebody who's a first lady because they say that she's been inflicted. Let me find it. These lies have caused tremendous damage to the Macrons defendants have subjected them to a campaign of global humiliation, turning their lives into fodder for. For, for profit driven lies. Owens has dissected their appearance, their marriage, their friends, their family and their personal history, twisting it a grotesque narrative to inflame and to degrade. The result is relentless bullying on A worldwide scale. I just think that's a very high bar. You know, in terms of when we talk about public figure, there is nobody more public than the President and the first lady of another country.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Isaac Saul]

I mean, look, we can say here about Donald J. Trump or. And everybody can. I think that's the way that it should be. So. So the ability to prove damages here, I think would be incredibly difficult, which for the lawyers to be able to argue. Again, I'm not a lawyer, but having looked and read a couple, and I've specifically tried to seek out two kind of conservatives or whatever who were talking about this, I think it's iffy in terms of the way that it comes out, in terms of the evidence, like you said. Yeah. It seems to rely on this blog, by the way, I have not watched Becoming Brigitte. I don't particularly want to. It's not. It's not what I appreciate Candace for, which is her Israel commentary. But broadly, I mean, I don't know. I don't know what you think of this. I think it was a. It's a Streisand effect, personally, from Brigitte Macron. You're the fucking first lady of France. Like, you got bigger problems. You know, is this really something that strikes at the heart of like, your personal, you know, narrative and all that?

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I can't.

[Isaac Saul]

It just seems weird.

[Krystal Ball]

I can't blame it. If I had to guess, develop some thick skin, lady.

[Isaac Saul]

I don't know what to do.

[Krystal Ball]

But if I had to guess, remember there was that whole thing that went viral of like, her slapping mom, whatever. And I think that brought back up because when it becoming Brigitte, that was posted, I don't know, a year ago or something, whatever. It's been a while back, but I think that brought all of this back up. And so they probably decided because I'm sure they are aware of the Streisand effect and how this will draw more attention, what an extraordinary action is or whatever. They probably got to the point where they're like, okay, well, you know, this has gone beyond. This has become like a widespread accepted phenomenon. And what other recourse do we have than to, like, fight back and prove this in court? Now, she had sued these two individuals in France who originally surfaced these claims. And originally they sided the courts in France, sided with her on her defamation suit in France, and then it was overturned on appeal, basically because they found that, like, oh, we believe that this was done in good faith and they didn't really know that they were lying and making things.

[Isaac Saul]

And they have a different standard, too, about you in France. They have a very, very different libel and defamation.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And I'm not an expert on that standard either. But this isn't the first lawsuit that she's launched surrounding these claims. I will also just say there's this whole phenomenon, like putting Candace and Brigitte and how you feel about them and this whole particular situation. There's this whole, like, transvestigation phenomenon that I found disgusting. And I find it disgusting as a woman, because it's just basically all about, like, policing whether or not you look womanly enough, like, you fit the societal, you know, expectations of what a woman is supposed to look like and vice versa for, you know, for the men of, like, are you manly enough? Is your jawline strong enough? What do you look like? Over the years? Let me, like, do this whole thing. And so I find it very damaging. I find it very damaging to men. I find it very damaging to women. And, you know, I think it's a truly disgusting thing to ultimately engage in because, like, let's say that Brigitte Macron was born a man and is. Is transgender. Like, I don't give a fuck. I don't care. How is this relevant to my life, to Candace's life, to your life, whatever. Like, I don't care. So that's the other thing that I would say. I think that's totally fair that I would say about that.

[Isaac Saul]

I hadn't thought about that. I mean, obviously I can't really, really relate to it or whatever, but it makes sense. I wouldn't want necessarily be dissected.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. For somebody to pick you apart. Oh, you're not this, you're not that. You know, I mean, it's a disgusting thing to do and to engage in.

[Isaac Saul]

I guess. What part of me is. Do you think what really gets her is all of this. A. Like, the circumstances of you guys getting together is sketchy, because I was thinking about that too. That may be one of the more personal aspects where, by the way, I think can't. Candice is correct in terms of their original relationship where school teacher and all of that. By the way, when I went to. I went to the town where Macronis run in Amiens, and it's the talk of the town. Let's just say that in terms of the way that they. That they all joke about it. They're like, oh, Macron is from. This is where he met his wife and all of this. So, like, it's a joke in France, just so people know. I don't know, I mean, perhaps, like, that's the gossip. Apparently, there was a report that Donald Trump called Candace and he was like, you need to drop this whole Bridget Macron. Yeah, she said that. She was like, if you drop this. What did he say? He's like, then I'll give you an interview. And he's like, I've met her, darling. She's a woman. I promise you 100%. So I'm assuming then that maybe the Macrons asked Trump to intervene on their behalf.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm not saying that was. Her belief was that they have.

[Isaac Saul]

Trump is going to call her for no reason.

[Krystal Ball]

Come on. And then the last piece we put up here, D4 on the screen, is her original. Like, I will stake my whole reputation.

[Isaac Saul]

Well, she's done it now, so, you know.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, you did it, girl. You put it out there. This episode is blowing up. She says. So I just want to say, after looking into this, I would stake my entire professional reputation on the fact that Brigitte Macron is, in fact, a man. Any journalist or publication that is trying to dismiss this plausibility is immediately identifiable as establishment. I've never seen anything like this in my life. The implications here are terrifying. I do not intend to let up on this story. I'm calling on other journalists to look into this explosive story and report accordingly. So, all right, well, there you go.

[Isaac Saul]

Back to Candace's point. I guess we'll find out in discovery. But that's part of why it's humiliating for her.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, she may end up settling. She may, but I think that'll be, given how hard she's gone, it would.

[Isaac Saul]

Be embarrassing for her and how filthy rich she is. Right? Like, you can burn money in a pile. Like, the main reason people settle is because they don't want to spend any money. But. But if you're that rich, like, what incentive do you have? I have no idea. I mean, this kind of gets to the point about Trump. It's like, Brigitte Macron, you really wanna settle this by taking a fucking blood test and submitting it to Delaware Superior Court? Like, that's humiliating to me, like, as.

[Krystal Ball]

The former first, but I think she already feels humiliated.

[Isaac Saul]

Maybe. I don't know.

[Krystal Ball]

You know, I mean, what other recourse does she have at this point? At a certain point, you get where, like, okay, you have to, like, you know, you can, like, ignore it for so long, and then it's like, all right, I guess I have to fight back. I have no choice.

[Isaac Saul]

We'll see. I'm wondering how this story is playing in France. I actually wonder what they think over there.

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Joining us now is Isaac Saul. He is the Executive Editor over at Tangle News and for our purposes he has done all of the reading into the new Obamagate scandal. And so what's there? What's there there? There's been a lot of claims from the Trump administration. Yesterday the Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard took to the White House podium and told our own Emily Jashinsky that she would pursue or refer criminal charges against former President Obama regarding this matter. Let's take a listen to that, and then we will you. Isaac, do you believe that any of this new information implicates former President Obama in criminal behavior? We have referred and will continue to refer all of these documents to the Department of Justice and the FBI to investigate the criminal implications of this for even informing Obama. Correct. The evidence that we have found and that we have released directly point to President Obama leading the manufacturing of this intelligence assessment. There are multiple pieces of evidence and intelligence that confirm that fact. Ed, go ahead.

[Krystal Ball]

Director Gatward, thank you.

[Isaac Saul]

So just.

[Krystal Ball]

Two questions, but to begin on that, the president, yesterday you've inferred.

[Isaac Saul]

That the former president helped lead a coup. Based on what you now see, do you believe President Obama is guilty of treason? I'm leaving the criminal charges to the Department of Justice. I'm not an attorney, but as I've said previously, when you look at the intent behind creating a fake manufactured intelligence document that directly contradicts multiple assessments that were created by the intelligence community, the expressed intent and what followed afterward can only be described as a year's long coup and a treasonous conspiracy against the American people, our republic, and an attempt to undermine President Trump's administration. All right, Isaac, so let's go and put this graphic up on the screen. It was released here by Tulsi Gabbard and the Trump administration. And this is what they've put together. Now, given all the reading, start from the beginning. Tell us what's going on here. What's the core allegation?

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Yeah, so I mean, the core allegation is basically that there was this House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence Report, which was done 2017 and at it up until 2020, that kind of analyzed an intelligence community assessment that was released by the Obama administration in January of 2017. And we did not have access to the HPCI for a long time. It kind of got buried. And what Tulsi Gabbard, the DNI released this week, yesterday was basically the goods on that report, what it found. And to be clear, I think a lot of what was in the report was previously known information. It is things like the Obama administration, you know, CIA officials relied on pretty shoddy intelligence that was, you know, manufactured, I think is a pretty strong word, but at least was ginned up to make it look like Trump was very much in the pocket of Russia the way the intelligence was released and leaked to news organizations, sort of created this. This circular ecosystem where news reports were feeding the intelligence community, the intelligence community was feeding the news reports. They were applying for FISA warrants using news reports. And, you know, they used all this to surveil a person who ended up becoming the United States president. This is a really big deal. I don't want to downplay the fact that what happened in 2016 and 2017 was not a big deal. I think it was, that being said, the same report that Tulsi Gabbard citing here. I mean, literally, if you go read the report that she released yesterday, on the very first page of the report, it says things like, most of the ICA judgments on Russia's activities in the US Election employed proper analytic tradecraft and were consistent with observed Russian behavior. It says that the key judgments found to be credible include that Putin ordered conventional and cyber influence operations. I mean, I'm reading directly from the report, notably by leaking politically sensitive emails obtained from computer intrusions, which was the DNC hack. So, you know, Putin's principal motivations in these operations were to undermine faith in the US Democratic process and to weaken what the Russians considered to be an inevitable Clinton presidency. So it requires people holding two things in their mind at once, which I think is one, that the investigation into the Trump campaign was basically built upon really shoddy intelligence. And that what the intelligence community was telling us and telling the Obama officials and what Obama was sort of projecting to the world in 2016 and 2017 was kind of overwrought based on what they had at the time. It was an exaggeration. This report specifically, the most damning thing in this report is that the idea that Putin had a clear preference for Trump, according to the HPSCI report, was based on scant, unclear, and unverifiable fragment of one sentence from a human source that five CIA authors read five different ways and was initially left out, but Brennan asked them to put it back in this ica, this initial report, which blew the top off the whole thing and generated all the news coverage.

[Isaac Saul]

That's right. I covered it at the time, the 2000, you know, the ODNI report, etc. But that's. That's the core revelation here. Is that what you're saying?

[Tulsi Gabbard]

I would say that is the. To me, the biggest thing that pops off the page is that this idea that they knew then in January of 2017, that Putin had a clear preference for Trump was based on really, really, really shoddy intelligence. And the reports kind of list the Four or five different sources which include things like this sort of this sentence that they heard that everybody interpreted differently. The Steele dossier was included in it. There was sort of like reports from 2014, well before the campaign even started. Diplomatic and media reports is is what was quoted. So it seems like that is, to me, the biggest thing that's sort of damning evidence that that initial ICA was built on really insufficient intelligence. What happened later was that many investigations that that ICA launched did kind of verify that Putin preferred Trump and that they did hack the DNC. You know, if you believe the WikiLeaks Russia story, which I think our government and intelligence community does, you know, so they use sort of shoddy intelligence to get the investigation going. The investigation sort of concluded some of the priors that the Obama administration had. It's a weird. You have to hold some complicated things at the same time.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And what about the direct connect to Obama here? Like, I mean, I don't think any of us believes that criminal charges are gonna be filed against Obama. Even if they were, the Supreme Court has said, basically, hey, you can do whatever you want when you're president. There's not really anything anyone can do about it. So what are they using to try to even make the case that there should be criminal charges against Obama?

[Tulsi Gabbard]

So earlier in the week, a couple of days before this, a different report and a different trove of files was released by Gabbard. And in that report, there was, you know, the sort of bombshell, if there was one. There was that there was a presidential daily briefing which was about to be published, that was assessing that Russia did not have the capability or the intention to hack our election infrastructure. And the FBI pulled that report, pulled the Presidential daily briefing right before it was about to be published. And then Obama sort of ordered all his intelligence officials together. And then, you know, weeks later, they produced this ica, this assessment that I was just talking about, and that the sort of fundamentals of what that assessment would end up being leaked to the press immediately before it was published, before it was released. And the core allegation is basically that Obama brought together these intelligence officials hell bent on, you know, advancing a specific narrative that he didn't really have the goods for. The problem with that is that, you know, Obama and the Obama administration, weeks before any of this had happened, they had already applied for the FISA warrant for Carter Page. And in applying for that FISA warrant, they had stated their case to the court, which was that that they thought Russia hacked the dnc and they believed they were going to strategically release those emails to damage Clinton. So the Obama theory was not, like, invented after the presidential daily briefing was squashed. You know, they had already believed this for weeks. We know that, because they went to the FISA court and made their case to the FISA court. So, yeah, I don't think Obama is going to be tried for treason. I mean, this is the frustrating part is that Gabbard gets out over her skis and asks to kind of say this ridiculous stuff.

[Krystal Ball]

And we all know why. They're trying to distract from Epstein and Tulsi's trying to get back in his good graces after the whole Iran situation and her coming out and being like, Iran is not actually pursuing a nuclear weapon. So, I mean, that is what hangs over all of this and why this quote, unquote disclosure is happening now.

[Isaac Saul]

And Isaac, I mean, I know that the DOJ has announced a, quote, strike force around this, but my friend Christian Daytock, who was in the briefing room asked a great question. He said, you know, statute of limitations for conspiracy is five years. So you've only got one charge at this point that you're looking at. I mean, even with, you know, rico, conspiracy, fraud, I mean, wire fraud, which is apparently all the things that they usually look at. These so called strike force teams, they have a very limited, you know, number of crimes that they can go into. And as you noted, treason basically is the only one that could even be pursued here against the former president. So, like, go into what that would actually mean at a practical level for trying to charge that in a criminal court of law.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Yeah, I don't. Look again, I don't think that there is. I mean, it's a fantasy. I think it's Andrew McCarthy, who wrote an entire book making the case that Trump's presidency, his first term, was basically destroyed by a ginned up conspiracy that, you know, he colluded with Russia. I mean, a very sort of pro Trump narrative. He's been covering these latest releases and I think doing a really admirable job at National Review, writing honest pieces like, none of this information is new. John Durham did the most thorough investigation of the Mueller probe and the investigation into Trump, and he didn't charge anybody even close to Obama's orbit after that time period. I mean, there were some, you know, there's the FBI official who kind of edited the email and there are real crimes there that got charged. But the idea that Obama, I mean, as McCarthy put it, it's not a crime, unfortunately, to kind of gin up A political smear using vaguely worded intelligence assessments. There is no crime there that they can actually charge him or it's certainly not treason. And as you just pointed out, the, the maybe more reasonable idea that they would go after a former president for like conspiracy is something that has passed the statute of limitations, which is something that Andrew McCarthy mentioned to it and he's reporting. So I honestly don't have the imagination to tell you what a treason charge against Obama would actually.

[Isaac Saul]

And this is what is important here. Look, there are three people here, I think, Isaac, I can't speak for you, who did a lot of stuff on Russiagate and about how it was BS and about the way that it was used, how politically disaster it was, by the way, I think it has major foreign policy implications and all of that, et cetera. We are still here eight years later now at this point, which is part of why there's almost a deja vu aspect of which Tulsi was asked was like, hey, listen, wasn't the time to do all of this in the first Trump administration, right? And she was like, well, there were people working for him at the time. But like, that's part of where, you know, when we bring the politics into this, it just seems a little bit convenient to be having this full scale rollout at a time of all this uproar and concern over the Epstein files when, look, the information released, the historical record is now clear. It was BS from day one. Okay, that's great. And I guess it is a scandal, et cetera, but the context in which it all is happening just seems like it undermines the maximal extent for what they're trying to go for. Is that your read of it?

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Yeah. I mean, what I would add, and this is something that I've said a lot in my writing, is just the Trump administration and the Trump campaign didn't help themselves at the time. You know, they were, Trump was asking WikiLeaks to drop more emails, rush it out there, if you're listening. Donald Trump Jr. Was taking the meetings with the lawyer, promising dirt on Clinton. I mean, there was stuff there that I think justified skepticism and concern about them. But we have had, we've turned over basically every rock and the collusion theory has obviously crumbled. And it is very clear that the Obama administration and intelligence officials from that time period were feeding the media stories to make it look as bad as possible. And they were preventing us from hearing things that probably would have calmed the air a little bit, that would have calmed tensions a little bit. So I get the anger and the fury from the Trump camp. I just think what's happening now, as you guys have pointed out, is very obviously designed to be a distraction. I mean, the self interest from Tulsi Gabbard is obvious given where it seems like she stands in the administration. And the Epstein file stuff is consuming the base and dividing Trump's most loyal supporters. So sort of trotting out this eight year old story that puts the focus on Obama and Obama officials. I mean, it's smart. We're sitting here talking about it, it's working, and they're getting a lot of attention for it. And I think it's an effective thing to do. I think we as journalists have to look at it honestly and explain exactly what's going on. But so, yeah, that's basically my best read of the situation, I think.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. I mean, I also think Hillary Clinton sort of escaped scrutiny in some ways in this too, because, yes, the Obama administration, they were in place and they're officials and the official actions are being taken there. The reason this took off so much with the liberal base is because Hillary Clinton wanted an excuse for why she lost to this guy. And that's where this was intentionally planned after she lost of, okay, how are we going to escape culpability? And that's. That was very successful. And so for me, Isaac, it's very ironic to see the way Russiagate originally used by Democrats to cover for their failures and now being used by this Republican administration to basically cover for Trump's failures. So it truly is the story that never dies.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Yeah, it's a good observation. I mean, if you go back and watch the Clinton campaign and look back at their old tweets from this time and even what Hillary was doing on the campaign and you know, on the debate stage, I mean, he's a Putin puppet. All their tweets, all their social media was about tying Trump. And we know now we have contemporaneous documents and their internal communications where we know the Clinton campaign was strategically trying to tie Trump to Putin. I mean, they were involved in this. And to believe that the Clinton campaign didn't have contact with Obama officials or people in the intelligence community, I mean, of course they did. So we know that that was, was part of their strategy to win the election, that obviously backfired. And yeah, it's a good point. I mean, we sort of memory hold that part of it too.

[Isaac Saul]

Actually. That's my last question here. I know. So she talked a lot about Hillary and some of this info that they sat on with Hillary. This just goes to my old coverage at the time. What was she talking about? About they were sitting on information that she was on tranquilizers and then her health was compromised. Can you go into any of that?

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Yeah, I mean this was, I would, you know, this wouldn't be like the main headline. Like I said. I think the biggest story from this drop was that the assessment that Putin favored Trump was based on really bad intelligence. But they did. One of the allegations that is made in this report is that the Russians had much more damning information on Hillary Clinton, that she was going through these like violent mood swings and she was taking tranquilizers and, and she was basically in some like manic state and was not emotionally, you know, prepared to sit in the White House basically. And part of what they found or what they're saying they found is that Russia had this information and they sat on it, they didn't release it to the public. And that sort of raises questions about, you know, what their real preference was. And the idea was basically that Russia thought it was a foregone conclusion Hillary Clinton was going to win and they wanted to push some stuff out to sort of weaken her presidency. But they also didn't want to go too far that maybe they blew up the entire relationship and then, you know, Trump won and shocked the world and that changed everything. But yeah, it is. I mean there's some juicy stuff in there certainly if you're into the kind of salacious things. But again, I don't really know. It's hard to know how legitimate any of that information is either. And you know what kind of stuff like that is just sort of the classic Russian or whatever.

[Isaac Saul]

Yeah, exactly. Nobody knows if it's real equivalent of.

[Krystal Ball]

The pee tape or what.

[Isaac Saul]

I will say I will never forget that day when she collapsed on 9 11. That was like the craziest thing for those of us who are involved in right wing media. But Isaac, thank you for joining us man. You did such a great job of breaking all this down tangle. We will put a link down in the description and we recommend people go ahead and subscribe. So thanks for joining us man. We appreciate you.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

Thanks so much for having me guys. I appreciate it.

[Isaac Saul]

Thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate you. We didn't unfortunately have the time to get to the home segment. We want to get the show somewhat on time out. So maybe we'll kick it to the Friday show discussed then. But thank you all so much for watching. We appreciate you and we'll see you later.

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What if you never find her? I will.

[Sagar Enjeti]

The home of Outlander.

[Krystal Ball]

Every day has a to do list, but adding Enjoy.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Belveda to yours can help you knock out the rest of it. Belvita Breakfast Biscuits are a tasty and convenient breakfast option when paired with low fat yogurt and fruit that provide steady energy all morning while Belvita Energy Snack.

[Krystal Ball]

Bites give you the perfect mid morning refuel.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Best part?

[Krystal Ball]

They both taste great, so make the most out of your morning with a bite of Belvita.

[Sagar Enjeti]

Pick up a pack of Belvita at your local store today.

[Krystal Ball]

This is an I Heart podcast.