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Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
7/27/26: Kshama Sawant: My Independent Socialist Campaign Will Defeat Adam Smith!
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- [00:00]
Crystal Ball
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
Ryan Grim
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Kyle McLaughlin
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- [01:15]
Crystal Ball
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- [01:54]
Ryan Grim
This is the only place where you
- [01:55]
Crystal Ball
can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breakingpoints.com so last week I interviewed Representative Adam Smith, Democrat, ranking member of the House Armed Services Committee. And so this week we thought it'd be a good idea to interview one of his primary Opponents. And she joins us now. Kishama Sawant is an independent socialist running in the jungle primary against Representative Adam Smith. Smith, welcome to the show.
- [02:37]
Kshama Sawant
Thank you so much for having me.
- [02:38]
Crystal Ball
Yeah, of course. And so in just a second, I'd love for you to give people a little bit of your background, what you're able to accomplish on the Seattle City Council. But first, I wanted to give you a chance to react to some of that interview with Representative Adam Smith. Let's go ahead and take a look. This is when I was asking him if he had changed any of his views with regard to Israel, specifically because he's taken some interesting votes recently. Jake Sullivan, who just came out and said that he regrets the Biden policy of the bear hug. He thinks they should have done more to restrain Israel. And I'm wondering if you have any regrets because now you're voting in a somewhat different way. You know, both with the NDAA shift in position with the Massey amendment saying, hey, we should blockade. I want to send a message to Netanyahu. At the peak of the, you know, the Gaza onslaught, you had a complete siege. You had entire neighborhoods that were leveled. They created the largest population of child amputees. Do you have any regrets about your votes during that time period?
- [03:35]
Ryan Grim
I don't. Because everyone forgets about October 7th. Everyone forgets about what Hamas and Hezbollah and Ron have done. And their desire is to wipe out the state of Israel and all the Jews living there. Is that not. I mean, that's in Hamas charter and Hamas is still extent. They're still doing that. I don't like the way Israel decided to defend themselves. But the solution being proposed is. And this is the consequence of what you're saying is, sorry, you know, we had this idea back in 1948, we were gonna give you a state and that way you could protect yourself against all these attacks. Didn't work out.
- [04:13]
Tony Ayo
So.
- [04:14]
Crystal Ball
So just so people know the way that things work in Washington, it's kind of similar to California. Everybody, regardless of their political party, runs in this jungle primary. And then the top two move on to the general election in the fall. I'm curious, Geshama, what did you think of that response and what did you think? What did you take from that interview in general from Representative Smith?
- [04:31]
Kshama Sawant
First of all, the fact that he reached out to you, Crystal, to do the interview itself to me is an indication of his nervousness because he's a very, very conservative Democrat. He's a longstanding, warmongering Democrat. Let's be clear. He's been in Congress for 29 years, which is longer than many of my campaign's volunteers have been alive. And he is one of the five remaining House Democrats who voted for the war on Iraq. And he has the blood of a million Iraqis on his hands. He's voted for tens of billions of dollars for genocide in Gaza. And it's really telling that when you asked him, do you have any regrets, he says he has no regrets. And throughout the show, he was on your show for 45 minutes. He absolutely erased the Palestinian people, absolutely erased them. He refused to acknowledge the apartheid state that they're living in. And any of the moves he's made right now to pivot away from or seemingly to pivot away from his blood drenched record is in my view entirely because of the pressure he's feeling from our campaign. I mean, obviously the Democratic Party as a whole, the establishment as a whole is feeling real pressure from the recent victories against the establishment Democrats in New York City and Colorado State. But as far as Adam Smith personally is concerned, you know, he is an APAC darling. He's bankrolled by the billionaires who profit from corporations, war mongering, war profiteering corporations like Palantir and Lockheed Martin, all of that. So, you know, he is very much an entrenched, warmongering Democrat. He's a general among the warmongers. And any pivot he's making is precisely because he is actually specifically being threatened by our campaign. And that is why he literally voted no on his own bill to give Trump a trillion dollars for war. I mean, who votes against your own bill when you're, it's only when you're nervous about your opponent. And I don't know if you heard right now, just a few days ago, he said, oh, I think we need $15 an hour federal minimum wage. I mean, it's like, news flash for you, dude. We won $15 an hour in Seattle in 2014. And that Seattle has spread, that $15 has spread to many cities and states because working people organize around it. And these guys are so behind. The federal minimum wage is $7.25 an hour still.
- [06:55]
Ryan Grim
And so can you set the stage a little bit? Tell people who aren't familiar with your career about your kind of first 2013 run and how it is that you got to where you are now?
- [07:06]
Kshama Sawant
Yeah, I ran as an independent socialist in 2013. That was our first campaign. And I say our and we, because it wasn't just me, it was a whole group of revolutionary socialists who ran that campaign together. And we ran on our flagship demand of $15 an hour and also on taxing the rich corporations like Amazon, Starbucks, T Mobile, you know, these are all corporations that are headquartered in Seattle and also for renters rights and rent control. And at that time, I was widely mocked for calling for $15 an hour. Nobody thought it was going to happen. All the corporate media said it was utopian, but it was precisely because it was an independent socialist campaign and because we were running not on personality or personal narrative or I wasn't running to make my own personal career. We were running very clearly on working class demands that the campaign actually won. Even though we were the absolute underdog, it was a long shot. We still won. And then after I took office in January 2014, two of the most powerful Democrats on the City Council came to my office, sat me down and said that it's all well and good that you rabblerouse your way into the City Council, but we are here to tell you that City hall runs on our terms and you're not going to win any minimum wage, let alone 15. And less than six months later, we had won $15 an hour. We made Seattle the first major city to win 15. And the way we did it was not by me sweet talking other Democrats or morally persuading them, but by using my office to build mass movements. And that's the basis on which we won the Amazon tax and renters rights. And that's the same principle we're using in this congressional campaign as well, to end all military aid to Israel and to win free health care.
- [08:49]
Ryan Grim
And so after that victory, you then had the 2015 and 2016 Bernie Sanders campaign, which led to this kind of influx in membership for Democratic Socialists of America. And if we can put up F4, people can see the chart here, you know, it ticks down a little bit and then boom, you see the campaign of New York Mayor Zoram Ondani and you see DSA membership surging again. He effectively challenged three incumbent Democrats in New York City, knocked two incumbent Democrats out, knocked out kind of head of the Brooklyn Party who was backed by the outgoing incumbent. Then the DSA wins out in Denver, Colorado. They have a couple campaigns coming in Michigan as well, Detroit and in particular. But talk, talk to us a little bit about what your view is of dsa, which has become the kind of big story. I've seen you make an argument that their strategy overall is, is flawed. How do you square, you know, how you understand the DSA with, you know, how they've done over the last several months and years.
- [09:58]
Kshama Sawant
I think it's really, really important what's happening. I agree with you. These are historic defeats of entrenched Democrats like Adriano Espiat and Diana Deget, you know, in New York City and Colorado respectively. I mean, these were seemingly invincible Democrats incumbents and they were defeated. And it is a decisive repudiation of the Zionist agenda, of the pro billionaire agenda that the Democratic establishment subscribes to. And you know, it is, it is really, it's really crucial because it is in the context of the Democratic and Republican parties in my view. And this is part of the difference of strategy and also analysis that I have from some of the DSA leadership, which is that in my view the Democratic and Republican parties both are the, together are the two most powerful parties of global capitalism. But the recent primary victories of the Democratic Socialists of America shows that first of all that tens of millions of working class people in the United States are angry. They are really angry at the status quo. They're angry about the genocide in Gaza, about the forever wars. And many of the people who voted for Trump are also angry because remember, Trump ran on the agenda of ending the wars and now he's become the warmonger in chief. And so there is huge anger in society. And so it's not a coincidence that you have Trump having very low approval ratings, but so do the Democratic and Republican parties. And, and in this context, the opposition to the establishment's agenda is winning victories. And so it is a confirmation of the dramatic shift in consciousness. I think all of that needs to then be translated into actual outcomes. And this is where, you know, just to explain, my metric of success is not whether I win the election. Obviously I have won four elections. So. And it was only because I won my first election first of all that we won $15 an hour. Because at that time the overwhelming majority of the labor leadership was opposed to 15. They were forced to get on board because of my election victory and because the majority of union members and non unionized workers were excited about 15 and wanted to fight for it. And the labour leadership would have been exposed at that time if they didn't support it. So in that sense it is. Election victories are absolutely crucial. But in my view, election victories are not an end in themselves. It's a vehicle. Winning an office in my view is a vehicle to build mass movements. And so the concrete questions will be the same. Some similar questions that were raised when AOC was first elected and the original squad members were elected. What will you do with that elected office. And so concretely, the immediate question that will be faced, especially I mean, if the Democrats win the House, is will you vote for Hakeem Jeffries or some other genocidal Democrat as the speaker of the House? And that concrete question will be, will translate into either there will be pitch battle inside the Democratic Party or there won't be, and the new one, new Congress members will be schooled into accepting. And already we have seen Mamdani and AOC endorse Hakeem Jeffrey. So that's the kind of concrete question I'm talking about. And I'm running as an independent, of course, and I'm happy to, if elected, I would be happy to work with the Democrats who want to fight alongside me for the working class people. But I'm just saying that the questions will be posed concretely, like that question about Hakeem Jeffries.
- [13:29]
Crystal Ball
So how do you think that Zorin is doing? Because, you know, just for myself, I see his victory in the New York City mayoral primary against the Cuomo machine, and with all of the establishment Democrats either actively endorsing Cuomo, trying to undermine him, et cetera, I see that as one of the most consequential developments for the broad left in my lifetime and specifically for socialists in my lifetime. I think we see that with the way he was able to use his political capital to get some of his allies elected, both at the federal and at the state level. And then to your question of, okay, well, is he delivering the goods? You know, in terms of his core campaign promises, he really is. The rent is being frozen, the buses are getting faster, he was able to cut a deal in order to expand free childcare. So he's working on the grocery store. So he has been delivering in terms of what his campaign promises are. If we could put F2 up on the screen. I know you've been very critical of him in the past, and I wonder if you still feel this way. You said previously you thought he was caving to the Democratic Party's pro billionaire agenda. You insinuated he was a sellout. You said that his approach was a dead end. But it looks to me like his approach is working. So do you still feel that he is effectively a sellout who is giving cover to billionaires?
- [14:43]
Kshama Sawant
I think if you look at what has happened, I agree with you. The rent freeze and all of that. As I've said in previous shows, for me, as a revolutionary socialist, I may have differences on various questions of strategy, but as far as working class victories are concerned, I Support every single victory. And for me, that is very. I insist on a non sectarian approach, meaning that I might have critique, but having a critique of other leaders on the left, in my view, is not sectarianism. Sectarianism is when you refuse to prioritize the interests of the working class in order to prioritize your whatever, your petty, whatever differences or petty quibbles and stuff like that. And so is the rent freeze important for the working class? That is, whose lives are going to be made better by that? Yes, absolutely. The question, though, in my view, is everything else that's missing. And so it does bring up the question of strategy, which is how much can you win and for how long can you win based on the approach of trying to sweet talk the billionaire class, trying to make deals, as you said, Crystal, cutting a deal. I don't subscribe to the approach of cutting deals. I subscribe to the approach of using elected office to build mass movements. So his campaign itself, and I've been very clear about this, his campaign itself was very much the approach he used, was very much something that I have used in my campaigns, which is to mobilize thousands of people into action, literally having door knocking throughout the city and running on very concrete demands and being emphatic about repeating those demands everywhere you go in your stump speeches. All of that is very, very crucial. But then when you win elected office, what do you do with that office? That's the difference. And just to give you one very concrete example, is rent freeze important? Yes. But if you look at the big picture of what's happening to housing right now, private equity owns about one in eight apartment units in the nation. And this is specifically very true in New York City. You're seeing Blackstone become the city's largest apartment owner, getting 225 million in tax breaks. All of this, these are just examples I'm using just to make the larger point that the big picture that's missing when we only look at, oh, isn't rent freeze a win? Yes, it's a win. But I'm talking about the big picture of capitalism in which everything is going downhill for working people, not to mention the climate catastrophe. And so the approach that's needed is going to be a fighting approach that I've used, which is actually mobilizing hundreds of thousands of people into action. And just to, you know, I want
- [17:28]
Crystal Ball
to, if I could just on that, Kasham, because I think this is kind of the core of the debate around your approach versus the approach of Zorin and the DSA you know, I was personally, we'll just say, skeptical of when he came in and said, you know what? I'm not gonna endorse against Hakeem Jeffries. And some reporting came out that that was important to Kathy Hochul. And so I was initially, I was kind of critical of that. I was skeptical of that. I was like, you know what? These people, they're never gonna work with you. They're gon be adversarial to you. What are you doing? Well, I think that I was wrong and he was right. Because ultimately we have to deal with the reality that Kathy Hochul is governor of the state, Donald Trump is President of the United States. We would like it if that wasn't the case. But that is reality. And he was able to secure a very significant win for working class people through being able to work with Kathy Hochul. Now, when he, for example, went and met with Donald Trump, he literally called the man a fascist to his face. But he also has not had the massive invasion of New York City that we saw, for example, in Minneapolis, which also has very important consequences for working people in New York City. So from my perspective, as someone who now is mayor of a city responsible for millions of people's lives and is trying to cut a balance between a revolutionary objective, but also working inside a system as it exists, I think he's really struck that balance. Well, of using, leveraging the mass movement that he built and that DSA has, but also being pragmatic and smart and getting wins for his agenda so that we can prove that socialists aren't just out there like, you know, having a book club and screaming slogans that they can actually be trusted with power and see, and they can actually deliver measurable, concrete results for the people there.
- [19:14]
Kshama Sawant
Well, as far as delivering concrete results, I mean, just to say that we, through a totally different approach than Mamdani, we were able to win the. We were able to make Seattle the first major city to win $15 an hour. And actually now Seattle has the nation's highest minimum wage of $21.30 an hour. We won the Amazon tax, which is hundreds of millions of dollars every year, defeating Jeff Bezos in a city of around less than 800,000 people. And we won a whole host of renters rights in such a way that the corporate landlords, by their own admission, simply could not win in the 10 years that I was in office. And so as far as winning victories for the working class is concerned, I mean, these are massive, historic victories that came from one elected office. As an independent socialist, with all the other people being Democrats and you know, I.
- [20:08]
Crystal Ball
With respect.
- [20:09]
Kshama Sawant
Yes. Can I just. Yeah.
- [20:10]
Crystal Ball
Can I. Yeah, with respect. On that, though. It doesn't seem that that model has been replicable. I don't take anything away from you in terms we've talked before. We, you know, interviewed you back in rising days, et cetera, and followed your progress closely. I don't take anything away from you in terms of the victories you're part of securing. It doesn't seem that that model has been replicable, though. And, you know, one member of Congress, one mayor, one city council member is not going to be sufficient. Whereas with dsa, you know, they're running hundreds of candidates, they've secured a lot of victories. They've done it on the Democratic Party line, and they're really winning the argument. Democratic base, which now overwhelmingly supports the politics that you and I do, which to me is an extraordinary thing as well.
- [20:52]
Kshama Sawant
Obviously the Democratic base supports it, but the Democratic base supports us, too. I mean, I would not have won a single election had the majority of people who vote Democrat otherwise had also not voted for me as an independent socialist. As far as the base is concerned, yes, but that's not the question here. The question is what strategy works as far as the political establishment and the billionaire class is concerned. And you say that Mamdani and the DSA leaders have been leveraging mass movements, and I don't agree with that. They haven't been leveraging mass movements. In fact, they've been doing the exact opposite. And just to give you a concrete example, as far as Kathy Hochul is concerned, you know, Kathy Hochul's back has been against the wall. Had been. And so far, especially with the rising consciousness and the anger against the Democratic Party. So in my view, the job of socialists is not to help rehabilitate the. The political reputations of politicians who are widely exposed as sellouts, as arch Zionists, as pro billionaire politicians. And I will certainly not have done what Mamdani did, which is endorse Kathy Hochul in the midst of the New York City nurses strike at the same moment that she was writing executive order after executive order, helping it, helping the hospital bosses higher scab nurses in order to undermine the nurses strike. So in reality, it is our job to go much, much farther because capitalism is a ruthless system. This is class warfare against us, and we have to fight against that and make sure that we are exposing the politicians even further. Not our job is not to forge a progressive alliance. I mean, sorry, some sort of Private alliance with Hocul, similarly with Hakeem Jeffries, we have to actually push back against that. And right now the establishment is feeling the heat. And so at this moment, we should not be helping them. That is the part I disagree with. We should not be helping them. We should be going all out. And you know why. And I want to quote a political article here which is saying it from the establishment side, but it's making the same point that I am making, which is that the capitalist class and their representatives, they are extremely malleable. They will try and adapt to find some way of continuing to survive and despite the waves of revolt that come in every era. And our job as revolutionaries is to push back against that. And you know, they say that every movement becomes the establishment at some point. A lot of the elected officials who are in office now were once part of a movement. This happens every 20, 30 years. It's not about, it's a feature, so of two party politics. So that's this guy from the democratic establishment recognizing that, yeah, we need to present a different presentation in order to quell the revolt and so on and so forth. And I'll tell you one thing, you can maybe win Rent Freeze with the approach of trying to sweep up the billionaire class and their representatives, but you're certainly not going to win the big ticket items that working people need, which is universal public health care in actually dealing with the climate catastrophe and all of that. If you look at the history, if you look at the history of how universal health care was won in nations like Canada and in Western Europe, it was absolutely because of the approach, the kind of approach that I'm using, and especially building new parties for the working class. Like, for example, in Canada, the universal public health care happened only because of the launching of what was called the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation of the ccf, which was a new party of the working class. Them winning victories in Saskatchewan and them building public health care in that province, that becoming really popular and the rest of Canada, working people in Canada clamoring for it. And then the Tories themselves becoming really, I mean, the ruling class parties becoming really nervous about that and instituting public health care nationally because they were so nervous about the CCF gaining political power nationally. And the same thing can be said about nation after nation in Western Europe. Those big victories that really changed people's lives were won only on the basis of a militant fight back. And that's also true of the New Deal. The New Deal was not won because of somebody making deals with FDR or whatever. Or FDR making deals with the capitalists. The New Deal was won because of the 1934 Minneapolis General Strike and the auto sit down workers strike and an actual revolutionary mood in US society which really put the scare on the capitalist class and they both were forced to concede. And so it's our job to rest those concessions and not help in rehabilitating the political reputations of the sellout politicians.
- [25:14]
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- [26:15]
Crystal Ball
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- [27:12]
Kyle McLaughlin
Hi, it's Kyle McLaughlin, host of the what Are We Even Doing podcast. You know, my favorite part of the morning is that first cup of coffee. A small, quiet ritual that sets the rhythm for my day. That's why I appreciate DE'. Longhi. For over 50 years, they've combined Italian craftsmanship and thoughtful design. And as the number one espresso machine brand in the world, they make it effortless. Just a damn fine cup of coffee in your own kitchen. Right now you can save 10% off your purchase at DeLonghi.com with code Kyle@ checkout. After all, if it's not Italian, is it even espresso?
- [27:51]
Ryan Grim
I think that history is all accurate. I think the part that I'm confused about is why it wouldn't also apply to the strategy that DSA is undertaking. For instance, like if you compare their broad idea, they're a socialist organization that is going for long term socialist revolution in the very long term. But in the immediate term, they're trying to reform the system and trying to reform the situation for working people by running candidates in elections. Your organization, it was Socialist alternative then I think Revolutionary Worker that you started in 2024. Long term vision of revolutionary socialism. Short term vision of reform for working people using the electoral system. They have now well over 100,000 members. You could let us know what yours is at now, but otherwise, what's the difference between the two things? You guys both want higher minimum wage, you want higher taxes on the super rich, you want protections for tenants, you want to go after the landlord class. What is the actual difference? It feels to me more like just kind of rhetoric and how we talk about each other rather than something substantive. What am I missing? What's the fundamental revolutionary difference between your approach and what. What they're doing?
- [29:12]
Kshama Sawant
Well, I don't actually believe that the DSA leadership, at least the part of the DSA leadership that we're talking about, actually agrees that capitalism needs to be overthrown. That is why they go around saying things like, we want to govern capitalism. I don't want to govern the capitalist system, I want to overthrow the capitalist system. That's not their view. If that was their view and you know, they can speak for themselves, but I don't think so. But if that is their view, then they're going about it in exactly the wrong way. Because a big part of the task of revolutionaries is to actually expose the role that is played by the representatives of the capital system. Because, you know, a lot of times people are Clear about, well, is Jeff Bezos on your side or not? Of course he's not on your side. And even that, you know, sometimes it's not clear. But certainly there's far more confusion about the spokespeople of the capitalist system, including the Democratic Party and even the Progressive Democrats. So if you look at how, for example, one of the leaders of the New York City DSA recently responded about, you know, do you think Chuck Schumer, you know, what do you think about Chuck Schumer? And she says, you know, well, I think generally I'm not opposed to him, but this and that, you know, that is the type of thing that you should not be saying because you are, you have to oppose just somebody like Chuck Schumer, you have to oppose somebody like Jeffries. So if your goal is long term revolution, how on earth is that going to be achieved? By actually being in a solidarity with the representatives of the capitalist system? Look, the capitalist system does not work in that way. The capitalist system is class warfare against the working class. That's very, that's the, you know, I didn't, it's not because I'm saying so. That is so and so a lot of these approaches of, you know, let's make deals with our Democrats. All of this is presented as 40 chess, but it's not 4D chess. Ultimately it is a sellout of the working class. And we have, we have been through this over and over again. And at this moment it may not be clear to some people, but in reality it is pointing to exactly the wrong way. And as far as, you know, you, you all saying that this model has not been replicable. That is because it is very hard to do what I'm doing. When you do, when you do what I'm doing, it makes you enemy number one of the ruling class. And that is what many of the gatekeepers, many of the gatekeepers, many of the leaders of the SA and others, they don't want to take on because on a personal level, it makes your life very, very hard. But that is precisely the approach you need, let alone revolution. That is the approach we're going to need in order to win universal public health care. And so I don't agree with Ryan that this is just a historic point of view. This is not something historical artifact. Today we need to win universal public health care. Today we need to end all military aid to Israel. Today we need to end, you know, to have a parliament on Samara Buenosole. How is that going to happen? I mean, Crystal asked Adam Smith, the question, you know, why is the Democratic Party even passing an NDA right now? The question that any of the DSA Democrats should be asking is why are the Democratic Party even passing any let alone co authoring like Adam Smith? Why are you passing any or approving any kind of one red center for the for war funding aside from veterans and from, you know, soldiers salaries and improving their living standards. There should not be one red cent for war funding. But nobody in the Democratic Party is doing that and the DAC leadership is allowing that to happen. That is what I'm talking about. So you can win small things. But even those small things, I want to be clear here, even things like rent freeze, you are not going to be able to win that on a long term basis with this approach of sweet talking. Because let's be clear what rent freeze was won because the billionaire class is able to read the room. They are not stupid. They understand at this moment it is, it is better for them and this is what I mean by being malleable. It is better for them to make small concessions rather than have that remove of revolt grow even further. And that's their strategy. So my question back is how are we going to win the immediate things that we need to win which is first of all ending all military aid to the Israeli state of permanent arms and bargain is a couple things to that.
- [33:17]
Crystal Ball
Palestinian people, a couple things to that. So I think I won't speak for Ryan, but I think he and I have both been open to third party approaches at times and I've just looked at the track record and I compare for example the impact of the Jill Stein presidential campaign versus a Bernie Sanders campaign. And first of all Bernie came way closer to winning the White House than Jill Stein. And second of all, even though he didn't win, I don't think any of us, and I know you backed him in 2016 and again in 2020. I don't think any of us could deny the impact that his campaigns had in opening the eyes of an entire generation, in helping to motivate some of the very candidates who are now running for and winning office and helping to build out dsa, even though he wasn't directly a DSA member as an organization that has a real membership and real organizing power and is doing a lot of the things that you're talking about here. So just from a pragmatic which approach has worked better perspective, the two most consequential to me things that have happened for the left which give me the most hope right now about winning Exactly. The sorts of policy victories that you and I would both like to see are Bernie Sanders campaign on a Democratic line and Zoran Mandani's campaign on a Democratic line, and now the movement of DSA and DSA aligned candidates who are running on the Democratic line. You mentioned the FDR example earlier. Obviously, FDR was a Democrat. So why is it that that approach is wrong when, to me, so far, it's just been vastly more successful than trying to go it alone and build something from scratch? My view of the Democratic Party is that it's basically a sort of like. You seem to have a view that it's like a thing, like a very powerful, tangible thing. My view of it is more. It's a kind of empty shell with ballot access run by a bunch of consultants who can and are being overthrown because the base of the party doesn't agree with them and because they want to support the type of candidates that we like. So why are we, you know, why are you committed to pursuing a strategy that, in my view, in recent history has not been nearly as successful as the DSA approach?
- [35:24]
Kshama Sawant
Well, obviously, a lot of the challenges that we face is because of the absolute demise of militancy in the labor movement. So, you know, the conclusions you're drawing, in my view, are very impressionistic and superficial because it's a question of what is actually needed to win the kinds of victories that we need to win. And that is why you have to look at history. You cannot look at.
- [35:47]
Crystal Ball
Can I finish if I could just pause you there? Because this is, to me, what is so exciting about the DSA moment, because I agree with you. I mean, I think Bernie never had a prayer because there was no movement, really, that had been built behind him. The Left was so incredibly weak. And so when I look at DSA now, I think they're up at like, 126,000 members. They're able to throw their weight around. It's a real membership organization, doing things in the community. I look at this and I go, oh, my God. This is. This is what we've been needing to build for a very long time. So explain to me why you see that differently.
- [36:23]
Kshama Sawant
Yeah, I mean, obviously, the membership is important. That is why I'm trying to say you're conflating the consciousness of ordinary people versus what the Democratic Party represents. And that's what I want to come to. And so as far as the membership is concerned, yeah, many members are very, very, very progressive and maybe even subscribe to revolution. There's lots of DSA members who are canvassing with us. There were DSA members canvassing with us yesterday at our volunteer day. That's not the issue. The issue is what strategy actually works. And as far as the impact of Bernie Sanders. Yes, you said I correctly. I supported Bernie Sanders. We campaigned, we doorknock for him. And I spoke at both of his rallies in the Seattle area, both in 2016 and 2020. And yes, all of the message of the political revolution that really resonated with working people, because working people are sick and tired. So, yes, that's the conscience of the working class. But the main feature of the today of our times is the chasm between the consciousness that has risen and the desire for fight back and the leadership that's on offer. And so all the picture that you painted, in my view, is not actually indicative of what's actually happening. I'll tell you what's actually happening. Even despite the Progressive Democratic Progressive Caucus, where there were more and more progressive people being elected, AOC and other SQUAD members being elected, what have we seen since that whole time? We have seen the breaking of the railroad workers strike, where only one Democrat in the House, Rashida Tlaib, voted against that. Every single other Democrat like aoc, voted to break the railroad workers strike during that same time that, you know, we are supposed to be celebrating all of these elections. We're seeing the genocide being launched and being funded. We are seeing eyes terror. We are seeing zero fight back against Trump. And that is part of a big part of the anger against the Democratic Party is that they are not fighting against Trump. That is also a big part of the support for my campaign against Adam Smith, which is not only that Adam Smith himself has been an instigator. He created, you know, he wanted to create ICE. He's voted to fund ICE repeatedly to the tune of $115 billion. But also because they're angry at the Democratic Party as a whole for not fighting against all of these ills. So, you know, in the same period that all of this consciousness has risen in Congress, you are seeing horrific things happen. And let me again say that the minimum wage is still $7.25 an hour. So my question to all of these people who are, you know, like yourselves, you're subscribing to this approach. My question is, why is it that not one single concrete victory can be pointed to at the congressional level, and also that at that same time, the genocide has actually happened? Why is it that you don't have a single Congress member saying, you know, the Progressives or squad members saying, I'm going to bring forward this bill and I, you know, to end all military aid and I'm going to campaign across the nation to mobilize working class people. And that is the main thing. Mobilizing working class people is the core component of what we need to do, which is what we don't see the DSA doing. I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you that it's the same thing that they're doing. No, they're not. They're not actually mobilizing the working class in the way that we are doing. They have membership, yes, but they are not actually bringing the mass movements to bear. And as far as your contention that the Democratic Party is an empty shell, let's be clear, it is not just about the structure of this thing called the Democratic Party. It is about actual class forces under capitalism. And the fundamental question is not even about the Democratic Party and whether that can be reformed. Yes, that's the question. But the primary question is can you actually win the kind of victories that we're talking about on the basis of not carrying out an all out class war back against the billionaire class and their representatives? That's the question. In my view that answer is no. And that is, you know, all of history that, all the examples I gave you, they all show that decisively. In fact, many of the victories in Western Europe were won in the wake of the workers revolution in Russia, which was obviously a war revolution won by Marxists like myself. And so that is the background for anything that we can win. It's actually bringing the revolt of the working class to bear. And can that be done? So that's the primary question. Can that be done? Can that kind of class war back against the billionaire class? Can that be done from a party of the billionaires? Maybe, maybe. In my view it can't be done. But to concretize that question. My question is this. Even if you run as a Democrat, you can run as a Democrat. Maybe I could have run as a Democrat. That's not the question. The question is would you be able to do the kind of class war for the working class that I did in a way that does not make you enemy number one of the Democratic establishment? No, that's the answer. The answer to that question is no. So whether, even if you ran as a Democrat, let's concretize this question. All these new people who are now almost, you know, the November election is happening, but they're almost guaranteed to get into Congress. The question is, can they do what's needed to in order to fight for the working class and not earn the ire of the Democratic establishment? No. The answer is no. That is why AOC's quote. AOC was very truthful when she said that if she did what was demanded of her by the working class, that would have caused reputational and relational harm for her among the powers that be. As far as working people is concerned, your reputations are going to be. You'll be an overnight hero. Even to this day, I have people coming up to me in grocery stores and saying that thank you for fighting for this or that. Well, as far as the Democratic establishment is concerned, no, they hate me. But I wear their hate of me as a badge of honor because for me, it's a confirmation that I'm doing something right. So fundamentally, the question is, can you actually win the kinds of victories that we can win? We need to win without going to class war back against the billionaires and their representatives? No. The answer is no.
- [42:17]
Ryan Grim
Back to your campaign in particular. I think in 2024, correct me if I'm wrong, you left the Democratic Socialists of America. Your campaign reached out to DSA to get an endorsement. I know there was something about a deadline and it went to a vote. Effectively, there was a very close vote and DSA voted effectively not to endorse your campaign. Like, what happened? Like, how is it that an independent socialist campaign that had this legacy of success in the 2010s wasn't able to win the support of the Democratic Socialists of America in Seattle?
- [42:55]
Kshama Sawant
Yeah, I think primarily the story here is of textbook sectarianism, which is that they have some personal objections to my approach and that is why they have decided not to actually endorse a campaign that is posing the strongest ever challenge to Adam Smith, who is a general among the warmongers. So I think that is the real question. And like you said correctly, yeah, it was a closed vote. And as I already said, many DSA members are campaigning alongside us. So this is really the position that the leadership took. And in that vote, they, you know, they made a lot of personalized attacks against me. One of those attacks was, oh, look, she can't even be bothered to come to our endorsement meeting. She's out there, you know, gathermenting for herself in the Bay Area. And they well knew, as I did, as I have said publicly, I was in the Bay Area for a rally for Cal Care, you know, the California Wide Universal Health Care, Medicare for All, to help the campaign. There I was invited by a rank and file union members there from the teachers union and who was not at that rally. The DSA leadership of the Bay Area was not at that rally. The leadership of any of the labor unions was not at that rally. But we had many rank and file leaders and lots of workers there. So I was not there for my own sake. I was there for supporting calcare. So, you know, it was on the basis of these types of personalized attacks based on falsehoods that they did it. But ultimately, you know, this is my question really is that how is it that you are putting all of these petty differences ahead of the interests of the Palestinian people? Look, I'm deadly serious here and as I said, you may agree or disagree with me on any given question, but I am completely truthful. I will never bullshit anyone and I am nonsectarian, meaning I always put the interests of the working class ahead. So for example, we have supported many, endorsed and also campaigned for many DSA endorsed candidates. We have done that even though we had differences with them. We agreed that if they were to win, they didn't win. But if they were to win, that would be a step forward for the working class and we have to put our differences aside and support them. We did that. Unfortunately, the DAC leadership has chosen not to. And that is the thing I want to put the spotlight on. Because it is not about me. You can love me or hate me, I don't care. I'm not here for personal reasons. It is at this moment, it is about the working class. Certainly it's about the misery that the working class is living in where in the richest country in the history of humanity half of American households cannot afford groceries. But most urgently it is about the Palestinian people and it's about the innocent people in Lebanon and Yemen and so on who are being slaughtered. That's the question. And so this is textbook sectarianism. And it's really tragic for them to say why we have some complaints about Shama Sawant. And so we are not going to support the strongest ever challenge against Adam Smith. Because keep in mind, if I were to enter the November election and even that itself would be electrifying, it would put, look at the pressure it's on Adam Smith right now. He's voting against his own fucking bill. He co authored that bill that he voted against. And obviously it was done on the basis of making sure that the Democrats could win the bill, sorry, the establishment could win the bill. And there were just enough Democrats to help that. But the point is that he's under so much pressure that he is having to do that. That is the strongest ever challenge. I mean if you came to this district you would say, I mean there is an absolute buzz about our campaign. I can't guarantee that we will get through it in November election. But my point is that we are doing everything in our power to do that. And it is really tragic that the DAC leadership has decided not to support this strongest ever challenge against Adam Smith because we have to make it about the Palestinian people, not about our internal differences. Right now we see the genocide dangerously expanding into the West Bank. It is absolutely horrific what they're doing with the violent settlements. And we have to keep that at the center.
- [46:51]
Crystal Ball
Kajama, my last question for you on this point. What would you say to people who would argue that you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good? You know, you're calling Zoran a sellout tool. The billionaire class. Meanwhile, it's not just Adam Smith who is having to shift his position under pressure. You know, there was a majority, a closer majority of the Democratic caucus who voted to block all Israel aid. It's not out of the goodness of their hearts. It's because they are feeling the pressure from the base and from these DSA aligned candidates too who are running against them in primaries. It'd be one thing if Adam Smith was the only one who changed his vote, but it was all of them. So there clearly is pressure on the Democratic establishment. You do have progress being made in terms of Zorin in New York City. The establishment talk about being enemy number one. They absolutely hate Abdul Al Assayed even though he isn't directly dsa. They're spending tens of millions of dollars. Like why would they do that if this movement isn't a threat to them in some ways? And so if you're spending so much time and look, I have my critiques of Zoron, aoc, all these people as well. But when you're dismissing the whole thing as their sellants, their tools of the billionaire class, aren't you undercutting the one thing that is actually the most potent right now, that is having the most impact in our politics and is most likely to secure the most near term victories for working class people.
- [48:13]
Kshama Sawant
What is most potent? See this? That's where I have a disagreement with you. What is most potent is the consciousness of the mass of the working class. And yes it is absolutely has, contains potential in itself to win victories. But if you talk about near term victories, what is the most important near term victory we need, which is for the genocide to end, for the forever wars in the Middle east to end, that is, and the war on Iran to end. That is the most near term, most
- [48:39]
Crystal Ball
important, don't you think? Abdel Al Syed Milat Kiros Darieliza Villa Chevalier don't you think that they will, Claire Valdez don't you think that they will be an important part of securing that victory?
- [48:53]
Kshama Sawant
I mean, like I said, the consciousness and the anger of the working class that has propelled them to victory absolutely is the central component. But as, and I agree with you that right now there's so much pressure on the Democratic Party that they're having to maneuver around it. But it is, but that is, but those are not the metrics. That is why you have to use the correct metrics. Yes, those are important developments, but the question is, what is actually going to end military aid to Israel? That is where the, you know, that is where the rubber hits the road. And that is why I'm saying that yes, this movement is a threat, but the direction in which many of the DAC leaders are taking it, that is not what's going to yield the victories that we need. Because that's not what's happened so far because we have seen a genocide actually come into existence at the same time that more DSA nominated, DSA endorsed people were being elected. That is the example. I'm using conflict example to show that actually what you are going to need. And so no, I mean, are there victories that have been won? Of course. And like I said, I haven't wantonly criticized Mamdani. I don't agree with your characterization that I've just generally gone around criticizing. I criticized DSA leaders. It's not just about Mamdani on specific things that they have done, which I completely disagree with. And it's my responsibility to point the working class movement in the correct direction. And when I think that something is pointing in the exact wrong direction, like endorsing Kathy Hochul or like endorsing Hakeem Jeffries, it is my job to point out, but it is a non sectarian approach, meaning that I have also at the same time openly declared that I support every demand that Mamdani ran on. And if there is a movement in New York City to win a $30 an hour minimum wage, I will personally be there helping that movement to win. But it is a question of what will actually win the victories we need. So what you see from the Democratic and Republican parties right now is them being what I call a malleable system. They are adjusting their approaches just enough in order to be able to survive. And they themselves are openly admitting it. I read you the vote from Politico, from this establishment guy. And so they are doing just enough, and they will continue to do just enough for them to be able to survive. And that is why what we need to do is recognize that they are under pressure and really go be as ruthless as the capitalist class is against the working class. It is the job of working class leaders to be ruthless against the capitalist class. And so that is the question. And that is why I would urge everybody who's watching this, please support us in our primary campaign. The primary election is August 4th. We are fighting to end all military aid to Israel for a permanent arms embargo on the Israeli state. We're fighting for free health care for all, funded by taxing the rich, for national rent control and for a national dollar 25 an hour minimum wage, which we think should be at least 30 in big cities. And this is the strongest ever challenge against Adam Smith. We have a real shot, but obviously we have everything stacked against us. The corporate media has done a blackout, and despite all of that, we have a real dynamic in the district. And we have so many people coming and saying that they've already voted, but ballots are out. If you're in the district, make sure you vote for our campaign. August 4th is the deadline. If you're able to canvass with us, please do so. Go to chamasawanth.org donate and sign up for phone banking chips no matter where you are in the nation.
- [52:11]
Crystal Ball
Shama, I always appreciate your fight and I certainly appreciate your time today. Thank you so much for spending some time with us this morning.
- [52:17]
Kshama Sawant
Thank you so much for having me.
- [52:18]
Crystal Ball
Our pleasure. All right. Interesting exchange there, don't you think?
- [52:21]
Ryan Grim
Yes, indeed.
- [52:22]
Crystal Ball
I like that.
- [52:22]
Ryan Grim
The primary is August 4th. We'll see.
- [52:24]
Crystal Ball
See how that all goes.
- [52:25]
Ryan Grim
There's a Republican, independent, another Democrat, and then Adam Smith. So the top two move on to the general.
- [52:29]
Crystal Ball
There's a weird thing going on with the other Democrat too, where she, like, sat for an endorsement interview and.
- [52:35]
Ryan Grim
Yes, people. So she ran. We won't get too far into it real quickly.
- [52:39]
Kyle McLaughlin
She ran.
- [52:40]
Ryan Grim
I think Melissa Chowdhury is her name. She ran last time and got like 30% of the vote. She was doing an endorsement interview with Kashama, with the Stranger on the Record, the local paper there. And she told the Stranger, I'm gonna switch to Green Party if I win, but let's keep that off the record.
- [52:58]
Crystal Ball
This is literally on the record.
- [53:00]
Ryan Grim
It's on the record. And your opponent is sitting right next
- [53:02]
Crystal Ball
to you right here. Yeah. Anyway, so, interesting backstory there. Very interesting election. I'm sure you guys will pay attention, as we will, to the results. Emily is in for Sagar tomorrow. I am in for Ryan on Wednesday.
- [53:14]
Kshama Sawant
I'm gone all week.
- [53:15]
Crystal Ball
Very busy lady this week. But in any case, I will see you back here tomorrow.
- [53:36]
Tony Ayo
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- [54:07]
Crystal Ball
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Ryan Grim
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Kyle McLaughlin
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Crystal Ball
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