← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
7/28/25: Trump Floats Ghislaine Pardon, Newsmax Says Ghislaine Is Victim, Dem Approval Rock Bottoms
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- [00:00]
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- [01:35]
Krystal Ball
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- [02:10]
Sagar Enjeti
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
- [02:17]
Krystal Ball
This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [02:23]
Sagar Enjeti
So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [02:34]
Krystal Ball
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breakingpoints.com Speaking of Israel, by the way, let's move on to the Jeffrey Epstein story, shall we? Here with Donald Trump now floating a potential pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell. Not saying he's going to do it, but, you know, not ruling it out either. Quote, I am allowed to do it if I want to. Let's take a listen. Would you consider a pardon or a commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell? If it's something I haven't thought about, it's really something recommended, I'm allowed to do it. But it's something I have not thought about, something I haven't thought about. But I am allowed to do it, you know, if I am allowed about it multiple times. After Ghislaine had this extraordinary meeting with the deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, we have video of her. I'll talk over it while it is playing. You're actually watching her walk back into prison in Tallahassee, Florida, carrying the boxes of her discovery. The details of this guys are extremely unclear. So the circumstances that all kind of came about, if we go to the next part, is that these meetings were initiated by the Department of Justice, quote, she answered questions for about nine hours over two days and was, quote, granted a limited form of immunity. Now, people took a lot out of this, but let me just slightly explain because she's already been convicted, the limited form of immunity doesn't necessarily apply in way people are thinking, like she's not getting away with anything. According to them, the Ghislaine Maxwell mentioned over 100 different names that bear investigated in relation to the Epstein story. Now, that's according at least to some leaks coming out from the government as well as statements by the deputy attorney general. But the entire thing stinks to high heaven. And this kind of gets to the pardon question because all of this is coming about as his Wall Street Journal story drops about Trump and Jeffrey Epstein and the letter that he wrote to him, as well as all of these other powerful people, all of whom, by the way, have verified connections to Epstein. We have the photo of the book now dropped by the New York Times where Trump signed it to Jeffrey Epstein In 1997, photos of the two of them being released. Who was it with James Brown, the singer, just to show photos at his second wedding of Epstein, who is attending there? Ghislaine Maxwell. Obviously, these photos have all been out there for a long time, not Trump And Epstein, but Ghislaine at the Clinton wedding, right, so obviously to the way that they were enmeshed in this like high society is part of the entire story. The question is why now? Because what we've seen previously is the DOJ said that at no time was Ghalaine ever asked about third party individuals who were may or may not have been enmeshed in this blackmail scheme. But the problem is that Trump has a direct political incentive right now to make sure that his own name doesn't surface in any of this. And so any somme of deal cut by the government that let's say implicates other people, it doesn't implicate Trump and then leads to some sort of pardon or you know, that is immune from the, not immune from the political process is gonna have a lot of open questions. This is why they should have a special prosecutor, they should have somebody who's immune from the political system who is not directly answerable to Donald Trump or anyone really on the matter. Because any sort of deal and files or whatever that is released has to have confidence. Otherwise this is gonna be some JFK style cover up all over again. So the whole thing stinks. Stinks too. High end.
- [06:06]
Sagar Enjeti
It's so obvious what's going on here. She wants a pardon, Trump is thinking of giving it. And what in exchange you think she's going to blow the whistle on if he did anything wrong? Of course not. It's going to be all about handing over like whatever Democrats or Democratic aligned billionaires, you know, which. Fine. But again the government has, we can put the next element D4 up on the screen. The government has like 100,000 pages of DOC. They have terabytes of information including financial records and all and videos and all sorts of information that they could release. We don't have to pardon a pedo sex criminal trafficker who should spend the rest of her life in prison and frankly wasn't prosecuted for even close to all of the crimes that she actually committed. I mean, let's not get it twisted. This woman, you want to talk about a groomer, this woman is an absolute monster. We're talking at the least hundreds of girls, young girls that she would recruit and herself personally victimize and get into this trafficking, what was effectively like a pedo trafficking Ponzi scheme. She was the main person doing that for years and years and years. So you know, I'm starting to cover the like MAGA reaction, this idea that she got a raw deal or oh this is so unfair. Like what is unfair is that there aren't other people in prison alongside of her 100%, but don't get it. She belongs there. And so the fact that it's even being considered. And I think he's gonna do it. I do think he's gonna do it, but he's even considering pardoning her. And we have reporting from the past, according to Michael Wolfe at least, that he had considered pardoning her before. It's so grotesque. And he thinks that we're all stupid, that we can't see what's happening here. People need to acquaint themselves with the term, if you're not familiar, limited hangout. Because that's exactly what's going on here is like, in order to sort of, like, push off the pressure from this emerging scandal of how closely affiliated Donald Trump was with Epstein and how he clearly is acting guilty as hell. Like, he's got all kinds of things to cover up in order to, like, defuse that scandal. You'll selectively release a little bit of information to try to convince people that you're blowing the lid off of the scandal. But obviously, you're carefully concealing anything that would implicate Trump. Anything that would implicate anyone, really, on the Republican side of the aisle, but him in particular. And at this point in time, what is the most important information that we can. Yes, I would expose all of the pedophile criminals do that. But the most important piece of information we need right now is does Mossad have blackmail pedo material on the President of the United States? And if we are not in pursuit of. Relentlessly in pursuit of that information, then it is, you know, we are really, really missing the train on what is going on.
- [08:56]
Krystal Ball
It sounds like russiagate level stuff and completely. But that's part of the issue is that I'm gonna. I didn't believe that. I'm still. Not really. I still don't really believe that. But the way that Trump is acting makes it so that it's pretty clear that, you know, you gotta ask something about, like, what the hell is going on with your actions around these files from the very beginning. And let's put this next one up here on the screen, shall we? This is from the New York Times, D4. Because what you see here is, quote, how a frantic scouring of the Epstein files consumed the Justice Department. And in the story, they talk specifically, by the way, I don't fully believe this. This is all kind of like. It's kind of the FBI line in terms of how they didn't end up discovering Some sort of grand conspiracy. But they're saying they compiled more than 100,000 pages of materials related to Epstein in terms of grand jury testimony, in terms of his bank records, all of the different stuff that they've seized, and all of that over the years, and that of those 100,000 files, none of them absent what previously has been released, is yet going to be released here by the government. Now, they claim the Bureau's own expert document reviewers have raised questions about whether it's being rushed or whether it would violate laws and internal protocols to protect sensitive information about witnesses, child victims, and other grand jury material from being released. But let's not pretend that they care all that much about what the. They care about, like, the actual privacy of the people who are named in here that are not the victims. They're afraid. You know, I guess maybe I'm relatively conflicted about this. They keep saying things like, oh, well, we don't want innocent people to be smeared as a result of the release of these files. But. And everyone says, like, oh, just appearing in the file doesn't implicate any sorts of wrongdoing. But that's not really the point as to the story, because even, let's say, if you're in the files but not connected to the sex trafficking, which, by the way, as I've said here before, I don't even think that's like, really the tip of the spear of the shadiest stuff that he was up against, you could still be involved in some extremely, like, grand intelligence, money laundering, bagman operation. So, you know, you might still be guilty of all of this other different stuff. And at this point, considering the promises and all that from the Trump administration, to just come out with a memo and just cut everything off from the very beginning and not release any of the info, especially that points in the intelligence picture that just screams cover up at the highest level. So the point is, there's 100,000 pages of Epstein documents. Trump may have a personal compelling interest in terms of not wanting to get his relationship with Epstein out. But again, I really still don't think that that's the full story. I think that the original intelligence impotence stems from, you know, has been there from day one. And that these 100,000 pages and all of that inside of the FBI and even now, all of this talk with Ghislaine Maxwell, like you said, the limited hangout stuff, that's what this entire thing looks like. And a lot of it has been distracted in terms of salacious media coverage and people don't necessarily know the full story, but when you do, there's so much still out there that they could easily release while still protecting victims and all that and actually give people some compelling information about what's inside of the, you know, possession of the government.
- [12:16]
Sagar Enjeti
You don't have to go to the courts and you don't have to pardon a convicted sex criminal. You don't have to do any of that. You have in the government, in the, you know, FBI.
- [12:25]
Krystal Ball
Under the executive purview.
- [12:26]
Sagar Enjeti
Yeah, under the executive purview, you have vastly more information than you're going to get from this criminal or from the, you know, grand jury testimony, which isn't going to be released anyway. So, you know, so then, okay, well, why doesn't he just release it? And we already know, you know, this has now been reported. He's in the files. We know that when they were scouring through this hundred thousand pages of information that they were specifically told to flag his name and identify where he appears in the files. And we also know, and this is, you know, Ryan brought this up and really reminded people of this whole episode who weren't familiar. The Israelis are known. Netanyahu specifically is known to have blackmailed President Clinton with Monica Lewinsky, recorded sex tapes that they had collected and sort of dropped the information to him in the comments context of ongoing negotiations with Palestinians. So it's not like this is so outlandish and, oh, they would never do that. And it's crazy to think that they'd be collecting like sexual blackmail material on American presidents. We know they literally have already done that. So is President Trump one of those American presidents the next in the list of American presidents who, you know, the Israelis are holding some sort of blackmail material over his head? We need to know that. And it certainly would explain a lot of how he has behaved visa the.
- [13:44]
Krystal Ball
Israeli state and well, not just him, by the way, there's other cabinet officials, I'll leave it at that, who have some questionable behavior on the topic. But it is one of those where you make it seem like that is a possibility in terms of your behavior. The only way to quash it at this point is to actually release everything to show that you have nothing to hide. But the Republicans are not acting that way. The Republican Party right now quite literally has shut down the entire House of Representatives just to make sure that none of the Epstein files get released because they don't want to vote on the floor. Any rule, nothing. No piece of legislation to be able to move through. And the Speaker, Mike Johnson, has a new line. All credible evidence must be released. Credible being the key word in terms of protecting identities and others. As if they're so concerned about that. Let's take a listen.
- [14:34]
Sagar Enjeti
Should all of the files related to Jeffrey Epstein be released and made public?
- [14:40]
Krystal Ball
Yes. I agree with President Trump, with the Department of Justice, with the FBI, that you need all credible evidence and information out there. That word credible is important. And why? Because you have to protect innocent people's names and reputations, whose names might be, as you noted at the outset of the program, intertwined into all these files. This has been a long legal process. The Massey and Khanna discharge petition would require the release. They would require the DOJ and FBI to release information that they know is false. So there you go. In terms of the new line is all about, you know, credible evidence about this grand jury stuff, guys. You know, none of that has anything to do with all of the vast troves of information that the government can and should release immediately. So that's just. Just everybody keep that in mind. As the story continues to fold.
- [15:28]
Sagar Enjeti
Reminder that this man literally shut down Congress to avoid a. Yeah, shut down Congress. Releasing the CEO.
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Krystal Ball
I will say I'm actually somewhat heartened at some of the Congressional Republicans here. You know, they bas. Fold on everything, but it's pretty clear from the. They actually did have the votes to vote on the bill from Tim Burchett, Thomas Massie, a few others. They have done the subpoena now for Ghislaine Maxwell. I don't really know what it is, but they, at the very least, are not sitting down yet right now about the release of the clause gain.
- [15:55]
Sagar Enjeti
Maxwell is worthless because she's just gonna. She's not gonna. She wants a pardon from Trump. She's never gonna implicate him or be fully honest about what she knows. So I don't really. I don't really put much credence in that whatsoever. But, I mean, they clearly realize that this has a lot of heat with their base and appealing.
- [16:12]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, okay, but let's say so. Good point. But at the end of the day, a subpoena and a compelling testimony puts somebody on the record. If you lie to Congress, that is a crime. And that's actually one that a future Congress, let's say a Democratic Congress, can lead you to. So if she says, you know something about Donald Trump or whatever, you're under oath. Right. You literally could be prosecuted for that possibly in the future. So I wouldn't say it's as worthless as you might say, because also it's important for those transcripts and all that to exist in a place outside of the Department of Justice and to have it in an open testimony or at least have some screened or whatever by intelligence and then released. The point is about getting other bodies of the US Government actually involved in the investigation, which always is important because that's part. Honestly, that's really where a lot of the information, if you look back on The Warren Commission, 9, 11 Commission, that's, or, you know, Snowden and so much. A lot of the info that we learned never came from the executive branch.
- [17:02]
Sagar Enjeti
Right.
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Krystal Ball
Getting Congress involved here is important. No, at this point, I don't think it.
- [17:06]
Sagar Enjeti
There's no way, like even if Trump today, oh, I'm gonna release the files, like you couldn't trust that he's actually like releasing everything. There's no way you could trust what's coming from them. So yeah, it's gonna have to come from like either congressional action, whistleblowers, journalism. Like that's the only way that you're gonna get the.
- [17:23]
Krystal Ball
The funny thing, my last word here is it's pretty clear that all of this is coming from in the FBI, in my opinion. The Trump letter and the book and everything. Yeah, the reason the Journal hasn't released the book, guys, they don't have the book, it's from the pages and they actually even say in story the book is part of scans that were included in the. It doesn't take a genius to figure out where this is all coming from. Same with that scan that the New York Times released of that book. They have the scan because it was part of the scan that's in the FBI. So obviously Trump is. What he's doing is setting up the incentive mechanism where all these other people in the files, their names aren't getting leaked. But he's allowing obviously disgruntled or people or whatever in the FBI to continue to leak to the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal or any of these other people all of the specific mentions which he forced them flag in the files to the national media, making him look even more guilty. The only way out is through. They just do not seem to believe that.
- [18:19]
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- [20:33]
Krystal Ball
21 + terms and conditions apply. Which brings us to our next part here on Ghislaine Maxwell, where the MAGA kind of media has now embraced a position where maybe Ghislaine is the victim and she needs a pardon. So let's take a listen. She just might be a victim. She just might be. There was a rush to judgment. There was a lot of chaos there for a while. All right, Granted, she hung out with Jeffrey Epstein and I know that's apparently not good. She may be a victim. Apparently that's not good. So you may wonder, who is this guy? This is Greg Kelly over at Newsmax. And then you may ask, what is Newsmax? Newsmax, obviously the pro trump channel that really exploded after 2020. And then you may wanna take a look at their board of directors. And on of directors is a guy whose name is Alex Acosta. Does anybody remember who that is? Right. He's the prosecutor who gave the sweetheart deal to Ghislaine Maxwell and to Jeffrey Epstein. In fact, Alex Acosta's sweetheart deal, the non prosecution agreement, is the very reason that Ghislaine is trying to protest her innocence all the way up to the U.S. supreme Court. Because per her definition of why she's been unjustly prosecuted is she's like, look, look, this isn't about the trafficking. You promised me. I can't be Prosecuted back in 2007. So what am I just guilty of Taking a notice here as to who exactly has been on the board of directors and is now saying that Epstein got his or that Ghislaine is actually maybe the victim of prosecution. The whole thing is crazy. Also, I'm not gonna let off the Biden people here either, because, sorry, the original 2019, the Trump people.
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Sagar Enjeti
Yeah.
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Krystal Ball
The sheer acknowledgement of, we never asked her if she had any other. Does anyone realize how insane that is? Is we prosecuted her for crimes that are only narrowly tailored to implicate Ghislaine and Epstein. And we were never like, hey, do you have any information on anybody else?
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Sagar Enjeti
Yeah.
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Krystal Ball
How can you say that?
- [22:42]
Sagar Enjeti
Well. Cause this is one of the things that, you know, people say, oh, there's really no larger conspiracy here. Michael Tracy points to this, right? And he'll say, well, okay, well, don't you think if she had all this on powerful people, that she would have sung and lessened her sentence, made some sort of a deal? And it's like, what makes you think that the government wanted that information? Like, what makes you think that this prosecution wasn't just about, okay, let's narrowly. Let's get this one person in prison where we can control her and make sure that it basically stops there? I mean, that's effectively the way they went about that case. They called it, Remember, we covered it. It was called like a thin case or something like that, where it was like, we're just gonna make it as narrow as possible on things that we're 100% sure we can get her on. And I don't think there's any indication that they were curious about whatever else she may have been able to tell them. So, yeah, I mean, in addition to. You've got that now idea that, oh, she's the real victim. I just. You can't. I can't even believe that they would say these words like, again, this woman was a monster. She is a monster. Hundreds of go and listen to these women whose lives were destroyed. They were never the same after. Whether it was one rape by Jeffrey Epstein or whether it was over a long period of time of control and abuse, their lives were destroyed. She destroyed these women, and she was the one. She was constantly on the lookout for girls who were getting out of high school and let me jump out and get their number and let me get them into this sexual abuse, pedophilia ring. That was her. And so to try to rewrite history now and act like she, you know, she was done dirty and this was. She's a victim and she deserves some sort of leniency here or that she's a hero for blowing the whistle on whoever she's, you know, whoever she's talking about now to the Trump administration. It truly is disgusting. And we didn't pull the clip, but Alex Jones said something similar. He's like, he didn't call her a victim, but he said Trump has opened the floodgates. The Democrats worst nightmare is about to come true because Ghislaine Maxwell sang like a canary and answered questions about 100 different people associated with Jeffrey Epstein. So they're trying to get back to this place of like, oh, this scandal has nothing to do with Republicans, has certainly has nothing to do with the Republican President of the United States, who was Jeffrey Epstein's best friend for years and years. No, it has nothing to do with that. It's all about now. Ghislaine is the brave truth teller blowing the whistle about all of the Democrats who were implicated and listening to. Listen, it's bipartisan. Don't get me wrong here. I'm sure there are Democrats, donors on wealthy people who have contributed to both political parties. But it's so incredibly dishonest to paint this woman as a brave truth teller, to paint what Trump is doing as anything other than a desperate scheme to distract and to cover his own ass from whatever the files have to say about him.
- [25:38]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. You know, the thing that bothers me is having covered the Ghislaine thing is she was not just convicted of sex trafficking. You should remember the people who testified at her trial said that she raped them too.
- [25:51]
Sagar Enjeti
She did.
- [25:51]
Krystal Ball
And like, that's, that's part of why calling her a victim is so sick and is so crazy, because it was not just facilitate, but which, by the way, I mean, what we're gonna let off the hook of somebody who was walking up to teenage girls and giving them cash to continue to massage. She actually was physically involved in some of these encounters. And that's not my work. Take it from the jury of her peers that convicted her under the testimony of these charges, I guess Tracy and others would say that they're liars who only wanted money. But okay, you know, he could take it up with the legal system. You should sue him, I guess, for defamation or libel, if you want to point that out. I'm just merely going off of. Even in the narrow conviction for which she was found guilty of, that's what they presented at trial. And so that's who we're dealing with here, you know, in terms of the monster. And not only that, you can see from the evidence of why she's so dangerous, not just to Trump, but to all these other people. Because what do we learn from the Trump Birthday book? Compiled by Ghislaine. Over 6,000 names reaching out to the biggest, most powerful people in the world. Bill Clinton, Leon Black Dershowitz, Vera Wang. You know, I'm like, looking at these people like Vera Wang, like fashion designers. Stephanopoulos was over at, like, she was his social secretary for like two decades, just flitting about and basically organizing things on his behalf. And so that's why the narrowly tailored charges against her are so, so obvious in terms of their ploy.
- [27:22]
Sagar Enjeti
Yeah.
- [27:23]
Krystal Ball
Gets to our point previously. But also you can see how people who are not familiar with the case are now talking basically about some sort of deal with Ghislaine, which, again, cannot be trusted. So here was Charlie Kirk and others talking about it. Let's take a listen. Swell. Is currently sentenced to 20 years in federal prison for sex trafficking, but is pursuing a claim that her trial was unfair. Since she is still contesting her own case, that may impact what she is ready to tell prosecutors. But maybe some kind of a deal could be reached. For information, we will.
- [27:55]
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- [28:43]
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Everybody's been calling for more transparency.
- [28:46]
Krystal Ball
This is what transparency looks like. And whether you like it or not, Joanne Maxwell coming forward and then testifying on behalf of what she knows is what we have been calling for on this channel.
- [28:57]
Sagar Enjeti
Oh, my God. So we'll see what real transparency looks like. It's just amazing how they buy it all like hook, line and sinker. It's just incredible.
- [29:06]
Krystal Ball
Well, what they need to point out is. Yeah, look, it is great to ask Elaine, but again, you need to look at the motivations of the government now in this particular case. And you also need to make sure that anything that is said from this point forward is actually done in a setting and circumstances which can be trusted. Because the way that this has all been handled is absolutely insane. So anyway, that's just. Look, we'll see where things go. I am already feeling like the Epstein mania to the extent where people on the right were felt betrayed and all of that is dissipating. They see it in this perverse way. The Journal thing is the best thing that ever happened to Trump because when they saw that Trump himself was directly under attack, a lot of the energy came out of the room and they were like, oh, no, this is an attack vector. So left wing youtubers, it's on you guys now. You know, it's up to the Midas touches and all of those people of the world to get people whipped up on this because otherwise it's going to fizzle out like this. They'll just stop covering it.
- [30:04]
Sagar Enjeti
Yeah. And I mean, and the mainstream press to continue to, you know, dig and release and whatever. Whistleblowers in the FBI.
- [30:10]
Krystal Ball
I hope so.
- [30:11]
Sagar Enjeti
Saying about what's really going on.
- [30:12]
Krystal Ball
Like I said, you can't really trust them Motivation either. Right. Like a lot of them hate. Fine. You know, hate Trump. Listen, leak against the guy all you want. I think it's great.
- [30:18]
Sagar Enjeti
You don't have to. You should also motivation, but you can, you know, verify information.
- [30:22]
Krystal Ball
My message to the FBI whistleblowers is give me some stuff. You know, listen, Trump, keep it up. All right, fine. I have no issue with it ever. Let's go deeper. Like, let's see what else is in there. Because something tells me that not all of it's gonna look good for all of you and your buddies either. And that's part of, part of my problem with this whole thing is the way that it's all, you know, kind of being massaged about.
- [30:42]
Sagar Enjeti
I thought it was important that the Journal also published that Bill Clinton was in the same birthday book and other people. Because, I mean, I even saw. I saw J.D. vance really trying to, like, backtrack after that. Like, I never said the book was fake, but, like, maybe, you know, we don't know that this was really Trump's letter. And it's like, no, you were claiming that this was all. No, they said it was totally made up.
- [31:01]
Krystal Ball
They literally said that.
- [31:01]
Sagar Enjeti
And so once they release, like, oh, Bill Clinton was in it, too, and here's his letter, then suddenly that changed the. Because it wasn't just about Trump. Like, they have the whole thing and they aren't just focusing on this guy. So I think it lent. For anyone who's looking at this honestly, which is, frankly, very few people, I think it lent more credibility to that reporting.
- [31:19]
Krystal Ball
I would hope so. And again, I just think it's evidence of why. I mean, I wanna see every damn name in the book, to be honest. And every single little joke that everybody.
- [31:27]
Sagar Enjeti
Was writing all this stuff about protecting the victims. Yes. Protecting the powerful people that were running around with this. What are we doing here? I'm sorry, I don't really care. I don't care at this point. You know, it's disgusting, the associations that he had and the number of people that we know knew what was going on, including Trump, who said he likes him young. Like, he fucking knew what he did. I don't know, you know, how directly implicated. I don't know. He had a modeling agent, he owned these pageants. He was running around with Jeffrey Epstein for over a decade, and he said he likes him young. Like, draw your own conclusions about how implicated and how much he knew what was going on here. Even if you know whether or not he directly was involved or not, which I don't think anyone should be surprised by at this point.
- [32:08]
Krystal Ball
And it's not just him, right? Like, you have Leon Black, like, and others, or Leslie Wexner drawing a pair of boots. Right. It's like such a look. I mean, everyone should ask themselves, I'm 33, if my friend was having a birthday book and his wife, or I guess, what, a companion asked me to submit something like, do you know how disgusting that is? Are you drawing as a grown woman for that man? And I'm 20 years younger than Trump was whenever he wrote the letter, or Leon Black or. I don't know.
- [32:38]
Sagar Enjeti
That letter from Leslie Wexner was so weird. It is creepy. Yes. I said to Kyle, I said, can you imagine if Corin, like, wrote you this?
- [32:45]
Krystal Ball
That's what people say. People are like, oh, times have changed. I'm like, not really like, you know, been around, you know, I was around in the frat pre woke era, even at that time. Like that would have been like, dude, you're a fucking creep if you're acting like this. Right? I mean, even in the hyper sexualized pre woke PC culture of the 1990s, 2000. Yeah, I just don't think so. So that's all I'm gonna say. And again, that's a Trump thing. That's a Leslie Wexner thing, Leon. All these other guys in the book who are joking about girls and all this stuff, like, I'm sorry, I think it's really gross to be openly acknowledging all that. So yeah, I don't particularly care about your privacy whenever you're filthy rich. And obviously who is engaging in this type of behavior and perhaps again implicated in some sort of vast intelligence, you know, money laundering apparatus. I think you should come out.
- [33:36]
Sagar Enjeti
Yeah, I think it was Jon Stewart that said every line of that letter from Trump sounded like something you as some code you would have to say to get into some like masked Eyes Wide Shut style party. It was like our wonderful secret. And ugh, ugh.
- [33:47]
Krystal Ball
You know, there is. I still wonder about that movie, by the way, if anybody's not seen that movie. It's such an incredible film and deeply disturbing. Yeah, it is. But I'm like, was there, you know, did Stanley Kubrick know something? Like, did you know? I need to go into. Read more about kind of the inspiration and all of that for the film and the background because it's a little on the nose in terms of how prescient it really was for the Epstein. And by the way, it came out in 1999, which was literally in the.
- [34:15]
Sagar Enjeti
Epstein Hague at the height of this.
- [34:17]
Krystal Ball
And it's set in the New York. Is set in New York City. Right. You know, implicating these like powerful elites about this dangerous like sex cult. I'm like, and you know, shows Tom Cruise like, I don't want to spoil too much if people have. You haven't seen it, but I'm just saying it was deeply, deeply prescient. And I actually do wonder if you knew anything. Someone should ask Tom actually, or Nicole Kidman for what the inspiration and all that from the screenplay.
- [34:40]
Sagar Enjeti
I would be fascinated, you know, what was in mind. You never know.
- [34:43]
Krystal Ball
Maybe they want to cover it up too.
- [34:45]
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- [36:52]
Sagar Enjeti
So how are the Democrats doing? So the Republican Party's not doing great right now. Trump is certainly his approval rating has fallen off, Independents are disgusted, young men are fleeing, blah blah blah. How's it going for the Democrats? Let's put this up on the screen. Oh, lo and behold, their approval rating has plunged to the lowest level in 35 years. According to the Wall Street Journal, they find that 63% of voters hold an unfavorable view of the Democratic Party. That is the highest share in Journal polls dating to 1990 and 30% points higher than the 33% who hold a favorable view. So you've got only 33% of the country who have a favorable view at this point of the Democratic Party. And I think there's a lot going on here. I mean, first of all, I wouldn't read into this necessarily that like, oh, Republicans are going to do great in the midterms. If you look at the generic ballot and whatever, and just the fact that you have voters who are center left and liberal and left much more energized at this point, they're disgusted with Trump and there's big backlash and all of that. But I really think this is about Democratic based voters being disgusted with and disapproving of the Democratic Party. Like that's really the only way you get to that low of a level. And so if you look at the shifts over time, that's really where they, I mean, they're not popular. Obviously Republicans hate the Democrats. That goes without saying. Independents also discussed it with the Democratic Party, but it's base Democratic voters saying, I am not feeling what this party is selling at this point and being disgusted with their failure to fight Trump. I think also the failure to recognize Gaza as the clear moral evil and opposed genocide in any sort of a clear way. I think those failings of the Democratic Party are what really have led to them reaching the absolute basement level of support that they have now.
- [38:40]
Krystal Ball
What's interesting is also if you look at the issue by issue handling for president and Congress. So this is just preference for Republicans over Democrats in Congress. It's economy, inflation, immigration, illegal immigration. That's actually where I find the most fascinating divide. But if, then if you look at the areas where they at least have some support, it'll be on healthcare, vaccines. But on foreign policy and on Ukraine, there's still. Sorry, on foreign policy in particular, there is a lot of dissatisfaction. What I just think is interesting is like you said, said, you can only get to this extremely low level when you have your own Democratic base and the super majority of the public that kind of come together and are like, no, we don't really believe in what you're saying. This also gets to the credibility theory.
- [39:25]
Sagar Enjeti
And it's also like, what are they even saying?
- [39:27]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, that's like, I mean, I don't.
- [39:28]
Sagar Enjeti
Even know what the Democratic Party stands for or is selling at this point. I genuinely don't.
- [39:33]
Krystal Ball
You know, that's part of the issue. Yeah, and let's. Can we put F2 up there on the screen? This is absolutely fascinating because at the same time what you showed here, you found this, is that the percentage of people who are extremely motivated to Vote. If you go back in time and you look at October of 2022, Republicans were very extremely motivated to vote. But in July of 2025, Democrats are extremely motivated to vote. So they're motivated to vote against something, but they're not necessarily motivated to vote for something. And this is the biggest problem that I think the Democrats have. And it gets to the credible messenger theory where people are obviously dissatisfied, at least right now with some of the Republican Party. The way the Republicans were able to win in 2024 is by being a credible outsider kind of threat to the Democratic establishment of Biden and of Kamala. Kamala was never seen, she was just seen as an insider. That's it. At the end of the day, I think that's mostly why she lost. But then how do the Democrats capture that energy of saying we're an outsider and having credibility, being able to call out everything? That's where the Zoran model becomes important. Cuz the Gaza thing is not just about Gaza. It's about speaking in a way that you never hear from anybody else. And that's what who else superpower was that Trump? Right, that was Trump. So the point is, is that you need to appear above the political fray and say stuff that nobody else in the political system is willing to say. I don't see a single real like mainstream Democrat who is really able to do that. Now you have some, you know, progressive and all that, but not in my opinion at the, at the major level, which by the way is a big problem because that means then if it becomes an establishment game, then the people who are going to win are the Buttigiegs and the Gavin Newsoms of the world.
- [41:15]
Sagar Enjeti
Yeah, yeah.
- [41:16]
Krystal Ball
And I mean actually the poly market odds are out and Newsom is currently leading. So there you go for the 2028 presidential nominee.
- [41:22]
Sagar Enjeti
Yeah, I mean, maybe. I don't know. I'm not sure I believe that he knew some. I just. You're right about that. I mean the problem is that they're outside of Zoran, who can't run for president because he was born in Uganda, there is actually no one in the Democratic Party. Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar, I think are the two who have been the most sort of like clear and morally consistent on the issue of Gaza. And you know, neither one of those is going to be presidential contenders. Aoc, you have to do better. Like, I mean it's just pathetic. Like still defending at this point shipping weapons to Israel for any sort of purpose. I just can't. And yeah, I know you voted against the whole package, but you put out a message that was directly defending the idea of making sure that Israel has all the weapons to, you know, never bear any of the personal consequences of their insane rogue actions and genocidal behavior, even as you call it a genocide. Like, that's. It's not acceptable. So. So, yeah, I mean, and I do think I'm becoming more and more convinced of how important this issue is in the Democratic Party, in American politics overall. And so put F3 up on the screen. So when you have the Senate leader of the Democrats, he has this man, Chuck Schumer. Ken Klippenstein has been tracking this. He hasn't done an interview with the press in, like, months. Okay, but he has time for this, this anti Semitism in the US Jew Hating Then now and Tomorrow with Richie Torres and Chuck Schumer and Bret Stephens. This is what you're spending your time on while our country is backing a genocide in Gaza. It's not serious. It's not serious. It's disgusting. What is the moral calculus that leads you to be more concerned, let's say, about a rally chant on a college campus than baby babies starving to death at the hands of our country? Please explain that moral calculus to me because I find it disgusting. And I think the rest of the country does as well, and certainly the Democratic base does too, as well at this point. And so, you know, they have, in a way, there's an opportunity here, because what I've said to you and what I keep saying is, what's really different this time is that the Democratic base is also discussed with Democratic leadership. The Democratic base is also discussed in a lot of ways with their own media institutions, which is why you have the Midas touch guys and others that are blowing up, because they are looking for alternatives that are liberal or left liberal that meet that need, that are in the right place. On issues of moral issues like Gaza, it creates an opportunity. The Democratic Party is a hollow husk just waiting to be knocked over. It's a house of cards. I think Zoron proved that. That's the other reason why he was so important in New York is I think he was really proved that the whole edifice is just ready to crumble with the slightest bit of pressure. But then the question is just like, who's gonna step up and actually do that? And there's no one that's out there right now that is a clear contender, in my view, who would be well positioned to really make the moral case. But I also Feel like there's an inevitability to it because you just can't have a situation where the base of the party is, is so at odds with the leadership and not have someone come in and fill that void. But thus far we haven't seen it and certainly not gonna come from democratic leadership. Put F4 up on the screen. This is Hakeem Jeffries, who apparently had not tweeted about Gaza at all and then puts out another of these mealy mouth. Oh, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza again, as if this just came out of nowhere. Has nothing to say about the intentional starvation being implemented by the Israelis. Still, by the way, hasn't even endorsed Zoran Mandani. Hakeem Jeffries is himself from New York, by the way, Zoran 1 Hakeem Jeffries District as well in New York City. So it's just disgusting cowardice that people are rightfully rejecting like across the political map. Certainly Republicans, obviously they're not going to be supportive of Democrats, but independents in even the Democratic base are left like, no, you stand for nothing. You have no principles. You are sold out. And we deserve better. We deserve to have at least one party that's against genocide. I really wish that wasn't too much.
- [45:43]
Krystal Ball
What I don't get is where the opportunists don't come with this. So you have Andy Bashir. He just gave an interview to Vogue and he said, I believe when someone is an ally, when you disagree, you don't do it publicly or through the media saying Israel was a critical ally and quote, we cannot have a nuclear Iran. It's like, dude, you're the governor of Kentucky, right? You had no dog in this fight, right?
- [46:02]
Sagar Enjeti
And he hadn't had to say really anything about this. He could have positioned himself anywhere.
- [46:06]
Krystal Ball
I just don't get it. I'm like, where does this shit come from? I mean, you've probably got better statements than from like Gavin or Pete Buttigieg or any of these other people. So I agree. Look, the system is ripe for the taking. But there is something perverse in Democratic politics where maybe it's like rule following or something, where actually saying screw you in the way that Trump was able to just apparently doesn't seem to have the same, like, appeal. I don't know what it is, or at least like the permission structure again, I don't know why, but something like that needs to happen.
- [46:38]
Sagar Enjeti
The base wants that person. They want Tea Party and Trump cowardly. They're so risk averse.
- [46:43]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, that's right.
- [46:44]
Sagar Enjeti
You know, and they're so used to like coalition management and they're so used to this logic in D.C. that has been the case for however long wrong that like all the danger is in going, all the political danger is in going against Israel. And they apparently haven't adjusted. And then they're also all complicit. Cuz you can immediately turn around and say, oh well, you backed it when it was Biden. You know, like you helped to ship the weapons.
- [47:06]
Krystal Ball
I didn't think about that.
- [47:07]
Sagar Enjeti
But I think, you know, at this point there's enough sort of track laid from Trump where you can say, okay, but he's doing the ethnic cleansing. He's, you know, Biden didn't say gara, you know, Gaza lago or whatever, which is kind of bullshit. But at least we give them some like coverage as oh, it's different now.
- [47:23]
Krystal Ball
But I don't know, I mean Obama did it in 2002. I don't know why people don't follow his example. He's an outsider, literally state senator who gave a speech on Iraq which nobody cared about and shaky cam video ends up winning him the Iowa caucuses. It's like guys, you know, it's not that hard to figure out in terms of why and how you're able to like in the way that you're able to set your political future up if you want. But Dean, you know, Dean had a chance. I really think he had a chance. Threw it away. It's like these guys just throw, continue to throw it away on this I'll never understand.
- [47:53]
Sagar Enjeti
Yeah, no, it's, it would, I think it almost has to be an outsider and I don't know who this person is, but maybe they exist. Okay, Bilber, looking at you.
- [48:01]
Krystal Ball
All right, we will see you guys tomorrow.
- [48:18]
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Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
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