← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
7/29/25: Bill Maher Says He Was Wrong On Trump Tariffs, Krystal and Saagar Grill Senator Slotkin
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Host
This is an iHeart podcast.
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Malcolm Gladwell
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Sagar
Learn more@paypal.com hey, it's Charlie Puth doing a sound check with the Bic 4 color pen. Hear that? It's the click of four great colors and one long lasting pen for endless inspiration when writing songs or any kind of notes. And there are so many styles to choose from like the Bic 4 color pen with smooth like gel ink or the pastel and shine designs. Check out the latest Bic4 color pens wherever you do your back to school shopping and find the one that clicks with you. Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.
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Krystal
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
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Sagar
This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
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Krystal
So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
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Sagar
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breakingpoints.com let's get to tariffs now. There has been a major announcement from Donald Trump while he was abroad about the European Union and a trade deal that's been really been reached between these two blocks. Here's what he had to say. We are agreeing that the tariff straight across for automobiles and everything else will be a straight across tariff of 15%.
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Host
You are known as a tough negotiator and deal maker and what is in front of us if we are successful. I think it would be the biggest deal each of us has ever struck.
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Sagar
So I'm very much looking forward ever struck by anybody. That's so that is the circumstances there. He was pictured with the EU president Von der Leyen. It is kind of an insane deal. And I'll try and get into the broad strokes of it. So first of all, people need to understand he is meeting there with the European Union. Now, the European Union has the ability to negotiate trade agreements and blocks, but doesn't have the full authority to actually command its countries to do that. All right, this sounds pretty important, by the way. This is why the entire European Union is a stupid idea. But that's a secondary question. You have France and Germany who have criticized the two major economic powers within the EU who are critical of the deal. The deal that's been signed now by the European Union. Now the European Union is saying we are pledging the crux of the deal is basically to set a base tariff rate of 15%. Let me just put that up at the top. There's gonna be a 15% tariffs on goods. By the way, it actually includes pharmaceuticals, which was previously exempt from a lot of this. Essentially a flat tariff across the board on all that in exchange for lowering the tariff rate and including. There's some other stuff that's in the deal. The eu, and this is the one touted most by Trump, is going to spend some US$600 billion by purchasing US natural gas supplies and others. That's part the key deal that's being sold to Americans right now. I want people to understand that there is zero enforcement on that. Zero. So let me go ahead and put D4 up here on the screen. And I've heard a lot pushback from MAGA folks lately. Oh, you're such a hater and all these. Listen, I'm a hater because I'm pro protectionism. I'm pro protecting American business investment and all of that. I am not pro fake promises from people that have no authority to actually make them. So here the European Union admits it cannot guarantee their $600 billion promise to Donald Trump. Quote, the extra investments pledged under the trade deal will would have to come from private companies, which Brussels concedes it has no power to control. Let me reiterate that Brussels says it has no power to actually invest the touted $600 billion of European Union money into the Wall Street Journal. Sorry. Into the US over the coming years. And in fact, quote, the money would have to come exclusively from private European companies with public Investment contributing nothing. Which means that these private companies would have to make the. Now can the government lean on the private company? I guess, but you know, if they're gonna lean on the company, then maybe we would have to have to offer them something in return. Yeah, this is the problem, right? And then secondary to all of this is this pledge around gas and actually buying a lot of US natural gas supplies. Well, everything I've read now so far, there is a zero expectation that all of that money will actually be. Will eventually end up in the hands of US gas suppliers.
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Host
Why?
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Sagar
We don't have the supply. We don't barely have the supply currently. It also depends on the supply infrastructure here in America, which by the way, we don't have very much of, at least for right now. And it would basically require the EU to increase even more than it currently is, which is causing consternation in their domestic markets. Their reliance on European, on American energy. So those are like the two cruxes, right? The 600 billion of investment and buying natural gas in exchange for the so called 15% flat tariff. That's the deal. I mean, look, it's better than what, 50, 60% or whatever people can say, you know, previously, yeah, fine, but you know, in terms of that Trump had.
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Krystal
Also put in place.
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Sagar
Trump had put in. So that's why I'm going crazy at all these people who are like, hey guys, like, you know, we need to admit here that the, the truth is, is that Trump succeeded. It's like, hold on a second, all right, he put in maximal tariffs, went from maximal tariffs for what, how long was it, two weeks, something like that. From Liberation Day onward, the markets crash. After the market and the bond market react, they pull back and say, actually there's a pause on everything and there's all these like little mini tariffs everywhere. We're gonna do all of these side deals. All of the side deals then get postponed for some 90 to 180 days as they continue to go on with China. And now within that cont moved and ouster, there's already been some market correction or reality of accepting some of these tariffs. Then you declare victory after you're the ones who backed down from your original position. So that is a good lead in to the Bill Maher. And I want people to understand this stuff. I'm not a hater. I want more, I want better trading relationship. I don't see a lot of this stuff in the European Union other than a tariff for the sake of tariff. I don't really see how this is going to increase overall you U.S. investment and manufacturing. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just don't personally see it. All I see is the s and P500 to go up. Because the reason it's going up is because people, big business knows that it's actually not going to affect them all that much. So that's the context through which Bill Maher now says, quote, I gotta own it, and gives Trump saying that the tariffs didn't sink the economy. Let's take a listen. The truth is, I don't know what his strategy is. But look, the stock market is at record highs. I know not everybody lives by the stock market. But I also drive around, I don't see a country in a depression at all. I see people out there just living their lives. And I would have thought, and I got to own it, that these tariffs were going to fucking sink this economy by this time. And they didn't. The reason why is because those maximal tariffs on China, which actually would have sunk the economy, are not currently in place. Okay, and let's get into that little China tariff deal, shall we? Let's put D5 here up on the screen just so people know, because the number one reason that we're supposed to be concerned about trade with China and all that is our own personal domestic market. And right now, Trump has actually frozen export controls to secure the trade deal with China. Now, I would say AI, you know, this is what they always say, the most important future part of our business which runs on these Nvidia H20 chips, which previously the Trump administration was going to freeze from for export to China. The Trump, as part of the current negotiations with China, has actually blocked that export control, allowing Nvidia to continue exporting those chips to China, basically because, and you all recall this, Jensen Huang paid $5 million to have dinner with Trump down in Mar a Lago. That's how this all happened. Now, whether you support this or not, that's not really how we should be making national security policy, is it? Can we all agree with that? And that, you know, people I know who are real China protectionists are freaking out about this, including Steve Bannon, who is quoted here in this article. But it's basically giving away the store on AI before there's even some sort of negotiation. By the way, let me also note this. The Trump administration today did something which they would have beat the hell out of Biden for doing. They blocked the Taiwanese president from transiting through New York to Central America on a trip he was also supposed to participate in an event in Dallas. This is a top 10 trading partner of the United States. But because the Chinese are upset every time this dude even transits through America, they blocked him in the midst of their trade negotiations. You can be fine with that if you want. I would call that capitulation. Whenever we're talking about a major trading partner. That's the reality of the trade deals that we all have right now. Japan's gonna buy more rice. Congrats to them. Our shitty rice. You know, Japan is now gonna open its market to US cars. Nobody there wants them. I can guarantee you that. The European Union, fine, they're paying a 15% tariff and they've made all these fake ass promises to buy natural gas and to invest money. It's all bullshit. Just from what I'm looking at right now. I guess we should say, fine, let's not tell them that it is because then we can only move on. Maybe it's better job the alternative.
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Krystal
It's better than what was promised. I mean, that's the thing. Bill Maher not known for his economic attention to detail. We'll all recall the moment I had with him where he had no idea that the stock market had crashed during COVID And then there were all sorts of extraordinary efforts to make sure that that didn't happen again. And the bond market seized. So he's not known for really following the ins and outs of these things, let's just say. But I also, I'm so frustrated with the press. Just takes at face value, like Trump will say, oh, we got this deal and here's what it is, blah, blah, blah. And they just like write that up. And we've had multiple times now where after the fact you learn like by the way, that $600 billion or whatever, we actually aren't really in a position to compel that or promise that. With the Japanese deal, after Trump made his big announcement, then the Japanese came and said, that's not actually what we really agreed to. So I don't know when they're gonna learn the lesson of wait a beat, look into the details, find out what's real and what's not before you give him his glowing report of President Trump wins again. I was on with Piers Morgan yesterday and I was crystal.
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Host
Why can't you give.
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Krystal
Why can't the Democrats give Trump credit? It's like, because there's nothing here to give credit for. It's the difference between also what was sold, the 90 deals in 90 days and how everyone is going to come begging and it's going to be this incredible renaissance and whatever. And the reality of these sort of like half assed fake deals, which, by the way, the part of it that actually has teeth, the 15% tariff on pharmaceuticals, very likely to further drive up costs for medicine here in the US and what we said from the beginning is there's no industrial policy on the other side to actually help create. Okay, you want. Yes, I agree. Pharmaceuticals should be manufactured here. You don't achieve that just by slapping a tariff off. You need to have concerted industrial policy of which there is none. So that's where we are. But I do think there will be a perception of like, oh, the sky didn't fall and you guys said it was because. Yeah, I think there will be a little bit of that. But on the other hand, when you look at the polling, it's not like people are satisfied with the economy. You've got them doing the same thing that, you know, we heard Democrats doing last. Oh, the stock market's doing well, so everybody must be doing well. No, most people don't feel like that.
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Sagar
I'll just end that. You know, how did that work out for the Biden people? The S and P had what, two record years under Joe Biden? One down year. Does that mean that the economy was better in 2024 because of the S&P 500? Obviously not. All right. And that was. That was acknowledged. So anyway, it's a stupid way to track things, but nobody particularly cares about the details. For those of us who do, that's. You can have it. All right now we've got Senator Alyssa Slotkin standing by. Let's get to it.
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Malcolm Gladwell
Malcolm Gladwell here. I recently recorded the first episode of Smart Talks with IBM where I learned how AI agents are joining AI assistance as a major productivity tool. Let's start with AI agents. AI agents can reason, plan and collaborate with other AI tools to autonomously perform tasks for a user. Brian Bitzel, an expert from IBM, gave me an example of how a college freshman might use an AI agent.
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Brian Bissell
As a new student, you may not know, how do I deal with my health and wellness issue. How many credits am I going to get for this given class? You could talk to someone and find out some of that, but maybe it's a little bit sensitive and you don't.
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Sagar
Want to do that.
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Malcolm Gladwell
Bissell told me you could build an AI agent, a resource for new students that helps them navigate a new campus, register for classes, access the services they need, and even schedule appointments on their behalf, which in turn buys them More time to focus on their actual schoolwork.
- [14:12]
Brian Bissell
We can see patterns of how agents and assistants can help employees and customers and end users be more productive. Automate workflows so they're not doing certain types of repetitive work over and over again and streamlining their lives and making data more accessible to them 24 hours a day.
- [14:33]
Malcolm Gladwell
To learn more about IBM's AI agents and how they can help your business, visit IBM.comagents.
- [14:43]
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Sagar
Joining us now is Senator Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan Center. Thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it.
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Host
Thanks for having me.
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Sagar
We have a very limited amount of time. This is the Internet, so you're here. And it's important that we ask some of the questions that are animating some of the younger voters and others. I assume that's part of the reason that you're here. The first is about Jeffrey Epstein. It's a story that's really captured a lot of America's interest. So you're a former CIA officer. Do you think that Jeffrey Epstein had any connections to US or Israeli intelligence agencies?
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Host
So, not that I've ever seen or heard, but there's really. No, I haven't asked. But, you know, this is like a solvable question because President Trump's CIA director, John Radcliffe can answer this question, right? There is no shortage of people in this administration who can answer that question. I would be very surprised. I'm gonna be honest. I know your views on it. I would be surprised.
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Sagar
Okay.
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Host
But I'm like a Middle east analyst. I was doing my time going after terrorist groups and militias in Iraq, and so I just. I never saw it. I never heard anything about that. I, again, would be surprised. But there's an easy way to solve that problem.
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Sagar
Well, that's the question then. So in terms of, because I know you've expressed some concern about classified information, et cetera in the past, would you be fine then with the full release of these Trump Epstein files, even if they did reveal an intelligence connection?
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Host
Yeah, I mean I think at this point like it's just, it's such a distraction from in my mind, like what I really care about, which is helping people live well in Michigan, just get it over with and get it out. And this wasn't like my issue. It's still not the thing that wakes me up in the morning and I want to work on. But I think it's okay to say it's a full distraction now in Washington, everyone's talking about it. So just unveil it, do whatever you need to do, answer the questions and move past it.
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Sagar
Well, that's the last question then. So there's some accusations here from the Republicans on Epstein here just about, you know, why didn't you care for four years? I know you asked the question in 2020, you said I don't care particular like Bill Clinton, et cetera. I mean that's somewhat understandable. But you know, we do have like a person very circumstances, let alone you know, the sex trafficking organization, others. So you know, why don't you answer that question like why is this, now is the time that you do care?
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Krystal
Yeah, I just particularly care.
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Host
I mean it's horrible when you have a pedophile and someone who had a literal pyramid scheme of recruiting 14 and 15 year old girls for illegal sex. I mean it's horrible. At the time, I mean I sort of saw it as like one of these horrible stories that comes out every five months, you know, about somebody. I think the Weinstein thing had happened. There weren't Michiganders, to my knowledge, who were involved, you know, women, young girls who were involved. So I kind of saw it as like a horrible moment, but not particularly something that's like gonna decide whether someone in my state can buy a house or get a good job. So to me it was just like.
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Krystal
A.
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Host
It wasn't like a strategic issue. Right. For me. And then now it just has like grown. And I think there is a difference between saying some rich guy or a former politician was named in those things versus the President of the United States. That to me is apples to oranges because one of them is leading the free world and one of them's not. So if his name is in there as it appears it is just like deal with it and let's get on with it at this point. And you know, my 10 year old nephew understands that the President is trying to dodge, trying to distract, trying to talk about other things. He hates answering this question. Like we get it. So it feels off to the average person. Right. To a 10 year old, they're like, did he do something right? So just get through it, get it out and let's move on to real sorry for me, like real economic issues.
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Sagar
So then if piece of legislation comes forward, you would vote for it to support the release? Sure. Okay. All right. So then let's talk about featured of the Democratic Party. I know that's something you've been interested in. Democratic approval hit an all time low from the Wall Street Journal. At the same time, we've seen the rise more recently of anti establishment candidates. People like Zoran Mamdani. Give us some of your thoughts there about the future of the Democratic Party and particularly in the context of Mamdani's.
- [19:38]
Host
Victory in New York City. Yeah, well, I guess as a good Midwesterner and Michigander, I'm never going to say that what happens in New York City represents all of America.
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Krystal
Sorry.
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Host
We're a big country and I would never pretend to totally understand New York City politics. I didn't particularly understand Eric Adams. I didn't particularly understand, like I genuinely. Right. But I think the message and the hot take out of that election is actually not terribly dissimilar from what we heard in the November election when Trump won. Right. Which is people are still focused on the cost of living and not being able to achieve what they thought they could achieve. Right. And then number two, people are looking for a new generation of leadership. I don't think it's hard to miss those hot takes. I can have plenty of disagreements with what I've heard Mr. Mamdani propose, and I do. But that message coming out of that.
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Sagar
Election, what do you disagree with?
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Host
Just, I'm like, my family was a fourth generation hot dog business. Like, I am here because we live the American dream through capitalism.
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Sagar
Okay.
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Host
And so like a lot of free stuff to me is not the answer. I don't think it's sustainable. I don't think that it actually fixes the underlying problem. But I can have those disagreements. I think this is the, like, I would be thrilled to have that conversation with him or anyone else about like, hey, let's we agree that there's an economic problem here. What we do to solve it, let's have that debate. And adults can debate and not like want to kill each other's children.
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Sagar
Well, let's talk then about leadership. So you just talked about that. We see a lot of that from our show. Some of the Democratic side of our audience furious with Democratic leadership. I mean, do you still support Chuck Schumer's leadership here? He hasn't given an interview in about a month.
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Host
I didn't know that. I mean, for me, I mean, I've now served in the Senate for six months in the House before that. Him, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries have hard jobs like herding cats. It's not fun. I've said for a very long time, long before I got into the Senate and long before President Biden dropped out, that we need a new generation of leadership. You can feel it in. And I think at this point, I mean, especially New York. Right. You're looking at New York. It's like, I'd rather roll the dice with someone new than have like the warmed over leftovers that I've already known. So I think we have a problem with that across the board. And I think one of the things I can do as the youngest Democratic woman in the Senate, and you know, I'm not young, I'm just young for the Senate. To be clear.
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Sagar
You're young for us.
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Host
Yeah. I mean, is push on that and try to give younger leaders a voice in this party in a very real way. And to me, that's upward pressure. That pressure that you're talking about from the people is good.
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Krystal
So then shouldn't they endorse him? I mean, what kind of a message. Schumer and Jeff Reese shouldn't they endorse?
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Sagar
They're both from New York, Mamdani.
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Krystal
They're both New Yorkers.
- [22:35]
Host
Yeah.
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Krystal
And what kind of a message does it send if, like, I mean, this guy won the Democratic primary? He is the Democratic nominee. It was overwhelming. If then the centrist leadership of the party said we can't get behind it. Yeah.
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Host
I mean, you just asked me before we started the exact same question about the Michigan Senate primary. And I'm like, Michigan Democrats don't get involved in primaries. We all are friends. So I can't speak to what they're doing. I think, I hope that they're meeting. I mean, if this person is.
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Krystal
They did.
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Host
Yeah.
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Krystal
And Hakeem Jeffries still refused to endorse him. I mean, think about it from this context. Like let's say in 2028, a more moderate figure wins the Democratic primary. And a bunch of progressives, AOC or whoever says we're not backing, we don't agree with you. I feel like you would have a problem with that.
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Host
Yeah, I mean, I think I will say this. The way that this party works is when there's a coalition that sticks together. That's like a numbers issue, that's a data issue. And so I'm always gonna be someone who's trying to find unity. That doesn't mean we all agree with each other. And I think I wasn't in the conversations where they met privately, what they debated, what they talked about, I don't know. But to me, we gotta figure out what's common among all Democrats right now. And that's why I focus on the economy, because that is, to me, the cost of living. And people not being able to achieve what their parents achieved is the existential issue of our time, is the unifying issue of all the right wing, left wing, like, Americans. I don't even think it's a Democratic Party thing. And to me, that's where I spend my time because I think 80% of my constituents in Michigan, that's where they live, is like, I just want to be able to go to Disneyland and take my kids the way my dad took me. So that's where I focus on. I'm happy to sit down with any leader. I can't speak to their particular decision to endorse or not. I'm not endorsing in my own right.
- [24:30]
Sagar
But just last question.
- [24:32]
Krystal
He won the primary, right?
- [24:33]
Sagar
That's my question.
- [24:33]
Krystal
That's what's different by 11. I'm sorry, 12 points.
- [24:36]
Host
They have another election, though.
- [24:37]
Krystal
Yeah, a general election. He's the Democratic nominee.
- [24:40]
Host
I see, I see. I'm sorry. This is why I'm saying I don't follow New York politics. And I think the. You'd have to ask them. I don't know. I know that for me, whoever wins the Democratic primary in the state of Michigan for the Senate seat, that's up, that's who I will endorse, regardless of who it is.
- [24:59]
Sagar
All right, that was my last question, so I'm gonna turn it to Kristen now.
- [25:01]
Krystal
Yeah. So, I mean, I guess I'm actually a little curious and forgive me if this is impolite, I'm curious why you wanted to talk to us. What do you mean? Well, we don't have. Actually a lot of senators, especially ones who have very different ideology than us, reach out. So I'm curious what your goal was and why you thought to come here.
- [25:21]
Host
Well, first of all, I think you have a good audience. I mean. Right.
- [25:24]
Krystal
We agree.
- [25:26]
Host
If you appeal to four friends on YouTube or whatever, then I probably wouldn't be here. But I think to me, part of the problem is that people have kind of gone to their corners. And I live this right. I live on my family farm in a town that voted heavily for Donald Trump. I've never won my town. I've never won my precinct. I've never won my neighbors. We get along, but I never won them, and I probably never will. So to me, I think that the people have gone to their corners and like, people who used to be able to talk about politics and disagree don't even get in the same room together. So I kind of like the idea of your show. Like, it was interesting to me when my team pitched me, right? We go through and, like, there's no hiding it. Lots of people are like, how do we evolve in this new space? That's not that that conversation isn't happening. It is. And I think that's good. And to the credit of lots of shows like yours, thank you. But I think your show appealed to me as I was being pitched because you guys don't agree. And I am very focused. My dad was a lifelong Republican, my mom a lifelong Democrat. Michiganders want to get back to a place where we can disagree on politics and not have it be so bitter.
- [26:44]
Krystal
So I hear you on the idea of you want to talk about the economics and the unifying and cost of living. And I think that ignores a big elephant in the room, especially. Especially when you're talking about even Zoran Mamdani. The reason Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer don't want to endorse him is because of his position on Israel. The single most viral clip that he had in that election actually wasn't about cost of living, even though that's what he wanted to make his campaign about. His opponents, Andrew Cuomo in particular, wanted to make it all about accusing him of anti Semitism and attacking him for his views on Israel and Palestine. So the most viral moment from that entire campaign, I believe, was this moment on the debate stage. Guys, this is E1. Let me go ahead and play this for you, and then I want to get your reaction.
- [27:31]
Sagar
Mr. Mamdani, I would stay in New York City. My plans are to address New yorkers across the five boroughs and focus on that.
- [27:38]
Host
Mr. Mamdani, can I just jump in? Would you visit Israel as mayor?
- [27:43]
Sagar
I will be doing as the mayor. I'll be standing up for Jewish New Yorkers, and I'll be meeting them wherever they are. Across the five boroughs, whether that's in their synagogues and temples or at their homes or at the subway platform, because ultimately we need to focus on delivering on their concerns.
- [27:57]
Host
And just yes or no, do you believe in a Jewish state of Israel?
- [28:00]
Sagar
I believe Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state, as a state with equal rights.
- [28:05]
Krystal
Now, this was considered very controversial when he said it, and I think the results are in at this point that he didn't win in spite of his position there. He won in part because of it, including, if you listen to Andrew Cuomo's numbers, he won a majority of Jewish voters inside of New York City. And so what I'm curious for your view on is while, you know, I would love to debate you on your healthcare policy, I think we need Medicare for all, you think, public option, your housing policy, et cetera. I'm just being really real with you. I don't really hear what you say. If you are still supporting a genocide in Gaza, and that's for me, you know, I'm speaking for myself, but I know there are millions of other people who feel the same, that you have to at least cross this sort of moral threshold and what it indicates to people. And I think part of why, you know, Zorin won so many people in New York City, young people in particular, but Jewish New Yorkers, people across the board, is because it was a sign of, number one, okay, you're focused on New York City first and foremost.
- [29:05]
Host
Sure.
- [29:06]
Krystal
Number two, you're willing to take the heat on an issue that is really difficult for you, where you're being overtly smeared as an anti Semite. And number three, there's no entrenched interest that's gonna control. You have a spine, you have principles, you're willing to stand up for something. And so I'm curious for your reflections on that because of your voting record and where you've stood on this conflict.
- [29:29]
Host
Yeah, well, I mean, one of the proudest moments that I had in my last election where I just won on the same ballot as Donald Trump, was that I won a majority of Jewish voters in Michigan. We have a large Jewish population. And I won Dearborn, Dearborn Heights and Hamtramck, the three Muslim dominated cities. Trump won two out of the three. So I think the thing that I would push back on is the voters. The voters vote with their feet. Right. We have a moment in an election where they get to decide. And there was no issue that was more difficult for me in this last, I would say, six years, but certainly in this last election, other than this issue, because it's personal. I'm a Middle east analyst by training. And so what I tried to do and why I think I managed to win both those communities is call balls and strikes, literally up to this week on what's going on.
- [30:23]
Krystal
So let's talk a little bit more about that.
- [30:25]
Host
But I think it's important, Right. If you're gonna push on me, then I think, like, there's one of us that's had an election and had to appeal to my voters and win. And so it doesn't surprise me at all that Mr. Mamdani won, or actually, I didn't know his name. I didn't know much about him until he won, but because I think this issue is motivating people in a very visceral and personal way. Yeah, but it's not the only issue that my voters in Michigan care about, of course. And the online world is extremely, extremely focused on this. But that doesn't always represent the majority. And I think if I can push back, like, if you. We do. We're out on the road every day in Michigan when I'm there. In some communities, that issue is the number one issue, 100%. And like, I mean, up till this morning. Right. Like people texting my phone and talking about a plan, something we're working on. But I go outside the Detroit area, it's not in the top four. 40.
- [31:29]
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Malcolm Gladwell
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Malcolm Gladwell
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- [32:57]
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- [33:44]
Krystal
But, Senator, it's not just a political issue. It's also a moral issue, is what I'm trying to get to. So let's talk about those, you know, calling them balls and strikes, if you will. So, first of all, do you accept that Israel has a policy of enforced famine and starvation in the Gaza Strip?
- [33:58]
Host
I think I literally put my name on a letter yesterday or last night that says, like a policy of starvation, people are starting to starve. And in general, I mean, I served in places like Ramadi and Fallujah. I watched in 2004 and 2005, Al Qaeda terrorists drag American citizens behind a vehicle until they died. Right. Like horrible. And then string them up like a lynching.
- [34:23]
Krystal
Okay.
- [34:24]
Host
We still had a responsibility to get aid into Fallujah, despite the fact that we were fighting Al Qaeda cells in Fallujah. And I have been clear about that.
- [34:35]
Krystal
So this is a crime against humanity. Forced starvation is a. It's a crime against humanity.
- [34:41]
Host
The occupying power has a responsibility to get aid into the war zone, period, by the law of war.
- [34:47]
Krystal
So, in addition, do you accept that the Israeli plan, as reported by Haaretz, as discussed openly by ministers like Ben GVIR and Smotrich, as backed by the president of the United States, is forced ethnic cleansing.
- [35:00]
Host
I think we have, as recently as yesterday, the prime minister of Israel talking about forced migration into certain areas and then potentially out of the country. That is not legal. That is not on any international standards since World War II. And I have been clear about that. So I just I would ask for a little bit of an open mind.
- [35:23]
Krystal
Well, what I would ask is, listen, I'm a YouTuber. You know, I have my words. That's all I have. But you're a United States senator, like you have. You're not the president, but you have power. So what are you going to do? Because so far, what we've seen, I mean, you voted for some of the aid that's been used to massacre children and innocents. You know, you have backed Israel as far as I can tell, you know, from your voting record at almost every turn. You voted for a definition of anti Semitism that would codify anti Zionism as anti Semitism. You voted as a member of the House to sanction the ICC for indicting Benjamin Netanyahu, who you just admitted is a war criminal by your own words. So are you going to join Senator Angus King, Senator Bernie Sanders in saying no more aid to this country that is committing war crimes against innocent civilians?
- [36:20]
Host
I think the first thing, if you're asking about what to do with power, and I would, I would offer that right now, Democrats own nothing in Washington. So the.
- [36:30]
Krystal
Don't play powerless women with me. You're a United States senator.
- [36:32]
Host
There are things you can do in terms of who runs our foreign policy. I just think it's interesting, right, that there was a ton of protests when Democrats were in charge.
- [36:40]
Krystal
There was a protest in Manhattan yesterday.
- [36:42]
Host
Okay. I think it's fair to say, just to be honest, that back and forth, like the number of protests that go on now versus before.
- [36:50]
Sagar
But they were part of your political coalition.
- [36:52]
Krystal
Well, that's fair. I mean, Senator Stock. And that's fair. Obviously, I'm here.
- [36:56]
Host
Yeah.
- [36:56]
Krystal
I was very upset over the Biden administration policy. And as you can tell, I'm very upset over the Trump administration policy. So let's deal not in strawman, but me and Miranda.
- [37:04]
Host
In terms of what? So the tools that I have, the tools that we have in general, to me, the most important thing is a pressurized campaign to get aid into people who are starving. That to me, is the number one, because that's the one is urgent and today.
- [37:21]
Krystal
But will you cut off aid to Israel so long as they're committing crimes against humanity?
- [37:26]
Host
There is a difference between a weapon to protect a country from incoming missiles versus other types. Offensive and defensive weapons are different.
- [37:37]
Sagar
So would you support offensive weapons ban. Like, would you stop any offensive aid to Israel?
- [37:42]
Host
That certainly to me would be a place to look. But I'm not gonna cut off a blanket next sail on A defensive weapon.
- [37:50]
Krystal
I also reject that because, for example, if Senator Sawkin, if you were asked to support defensive weapons for Iran, defensive weapons for Russia, you wouldn't back that.
- [38:03]
Host
No, but Iran, I mean, but they're defensive.
- [38:06]
Krystal
They're just protecting civilians. Right. So how is it different?
- [38:09]
Host
But because Israel is being shot at, I mean, so is, so is Iran.
- [38:12]
Sagar
So is Russia, Ukraine shooting at Russia right now.
- [38:16]
Host
I'm sorry, this is the difference between allies, partners and adversaries.
- [38:20]
Sagar
Why is he an ally then? What are they doing right now, which makes it an ally?
- [38:24]
Host
I think allied relationships, just like Lithuania right now, like an allied relationship or a partner relationship is a longstanding relationship of information sharing and diplomacy. And that is, to me, it's not a. Like every day we decide Lithuania is our ally or not, we're allied or not. And sometimes we have big breaks with allies. Right. Sometimes we have difficult moments with allies, sometimes it goes the wrong way with allies. But an allied relationship is a long term relationship.
- [38:59]
Krystal
I just, it's hard, it's hard for me to understand why we should ally. Like, I'm sure you believe in like or claim to believe in liberal human rights. Why would we would ally with a nation that is committing a genocide and livestreaming it?
- [39:10]
Host
So can I ask literally, like this, I think about this from the mirror image way, because I am notI do not support the things that Donald Trump is doing.
- [39:17]
Krystal
Right.
- [39:18]
Host
But I'm an American. So do I want other countries to look at America and be like, we don't. We can't stand Donald Trump. So we're going to end any longstanding relationship we have with the American people. We're going to cut off any support we give them on information sharing or intelligence sharing. Like, we are not just our elected leaders. And I think that's the thing that's been lost.
- [39:41]
Krystal
Do you, in the conversation. So Betsellam and another Israeli human rights organization joined the global consensus, Amnesty International, some 800 scholars. There was a piece from an Israeli scholar in the New York Times in saying this is a genocide. Do you accept. Even Marjorie Taylor Greene yesterday came out and said it was a genocide. Do you accept that? And if you do, I mean, what responsibility does a United States senator have for. This is a nation that, you know, we send every year billions of dollars to aid. To aid that you have, you know, voted for and supported. Like, what responsibility does a United States senator have to prevent genocide and to stop genocide that we see ongoing?
- [40:20]
Host
We have a responsibility up till today to ensure that food is getting in.
- [40:27]
Krystal
Is It a genocide.
- [40:27]
Host
People don't starve. I don't know that I'd use that term, but it is using the. It is violating the law of war.
- [40:34]
Krystal
Why don't you use the term, though?
- [40:35]
Host
Because I think, you know, it's. To me, do I think it's ethnic cleansing, which is what I think of in genocide. I don't know if it meets that definition.
- [40:46]
Krystal
They're anonymous.
- [40:46]
Sagar
But didn't you say it earlier that it was ethnic cleansing? You said that they wanted to force. I mean, this is open from the Israeli government. Like, they're saying it. They're meeting national security. They come out and they're like, we don't need shells. We don't need. We need shells, not food. And we need to encourage migration.
- [41:01]
Host
Like they're saying, you're not going to get me to support what the Israeli government is saying right now. I think the point I was trying to make is it's not just about like we have relationships with nations over time, regardless of who their leaders are. We have really tough moments. We have easier moments, but that doesn't. So I'm not willing to say that like I hate everything ever.
- [41:24]
Krystal
Sure. But so even, even if you accept that they're committing a genocide, you still wouldn't cut off their aid?
- [41:30]
Host
I think that defensive aid and offensive aid are different things. And I think at this point, so.
- [41:35]
Krystal
If they're not doing every single day. If Nazi Germany said we want defensive aid, I mean, come on, it's just, you have to see where they're all weapons that are being shipped. You know, in another context, the weapons.
- [41:46]
Host
That they're using right now. I mean, to be honest, if you look at what's happening on the ground, the military part of this conflict is for the most part over what they are doing. No, what they are doing every single day is around aid and they are.
- [41:59]
Krystal
Hurting people around the world. They have slaughtered over a thousand people who were starving people just trying to get aid.
- [42:06]
Host
That is not.
- [42:06]
Krystal
How do you know this?
- [42:07]
Host
That's not high intensity bombs. That's not the weapons that you. That we were talking about two years ago. It's just not. I'm sorry. Every single day. The military reports that I read, they are traditional. Like, this is a military that has a bad strategy. It is not the bombs that we were seeing two years ago.
- [42:25]
Krystal
It's not a military that has a bad strategy. The strategy is for starvation as necklace. That is not a fair strategy. And they're accomplishing it very effectively with the full backing of the United States government, including sadly, Democrats. And so a couple more questions that I know you have to run. You know, I'm curious why you condemned Rashida Tlaib for using the rally. Chan, you know, from the river to the sea, something she said for her evokes equal rights. And you have not condemned Randy Fine, who said that Gazan should, quote, starve away. Who floated that the Gaza Strip should be nuked. Who called Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib and Soran as well, called them Muslim terrorists. Where is condemning.
- [43:08]
Host
I have no problem condemning Randy Fine. Who? I don't know. I'm sorry, I don't know who that person is. I have no problem condemning someone who talks like that.
- [43:17]
Sagar
Senator, we have to ask your last question because your staff is telling us, do you think AIPAC should register as a foreign lobby?
- [43:25]
Host
I don't know the answer to that. I think that I know plenty of people who think they should. You know, I don't.
- [43:35]
Sagar
It's kind of a cop out answer, don't you think?
- [43:37]
Host
I mean, I literally, I guess I'd have to look at the definition. I certainly, I certainly have had my tough moments with that organization.
- [43:46]
Krystal
And so will you stop accepting their funding?
- [43:49]
Host
You gotta get, you gotta get your facts straight. I have not been endorsed by aipac. I'm sorry, I was the first Jew elected to the Senate that was not endorsed by any Jewish group. Aipac, J Street.
- [44:01]
Krystal
You've been the recipient of their funds.
- [44:03]
Host
In 2018 when I first ran, people who were members, yes, but I've not been endorsed since then. And I just gotta be honest, like, I think that this is where facts really matter. I've had very, very difficult conversations with my colleagues in that organization and made a choice back in 2021. 2021. So that was the first time I was up for reelection. So I understand that there's a sort of like, again, cornered position, but to me, I call balls and strikes. As someone who served in the Middle East, I do.
- [44:37]
Krystal
I have one more question I have to ask you. You know, we do this show, I really do my best to try to uphold like, you know, basic human rights. Palestinian humanity oppose the killing of innocent civilians, wherever that happens. And I have to tell you, like, I feel really guilty that I'm not doing enough. I think all the time about, I'm a mom. I think all the time about those moms who can't feed their babies. Those babies are starving to death. And I just want to know, like, you're a United States senator. You did vote for Some of the bombs that were dropped on refugee camps when kids have been sniped in the head, tents firebombed, people set on fire, the entire Gaza Strip turned into rubble. And now we're seeing these emaciated bodies of babies starving to death every day. And I just. I mean.
- [45:35]
Host
You know what you can do?
- [45:36]
Krystal
Does it eat you up? Does it eat you up? Do you think, like, what more could I do? Do you regret any of your votes?
- [45:42]
Host
Let me tell you what I was working on this morning. A group of Jewish rabbis and Muslim community leaders came together with a proposal that we are working on. On just getting, like, if we can't get other aid in, at least get baby formula and nutritional supplements for children in. Let that be kind of a green light. Never has a problem. No one's trying to eat baby formula other than a baby. Right. That is the proposal that I've been working on all night and this morning. So in terms of what we're trying to do, there's not a moment that goes by that this isn't something that I'm working on and something that my own community, not online, but my own community, has practical things that they want to do. They're willing to raise the money, they're willing to buy the formula. They're willing to do whatever we need to do to get it shipped in. That's how I spend my time.
- [46:30]
Krystal
But you're not willing to cut off aid to Israel.
- [46:33]
Host
To me, that, to me, is the most effective thing that I can do today.
- [46:37]
Sagar
This is a subtle question. Your staff is telling us you absolutely have to go. So we appreciate your time. Thank you very much for coming.
- [46:42]
Host
Thank you very much.
- [46:43]
Sagar
Okay, thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate you. We will see you all tomorrow. Or counterpoints. We'll see you all tomorrow.
- [47:01]
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Host
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- [48:24]
Host
This is an iHeart podcast.